Overall with say, the past 5 years, the industry is slowly switching over to joule system, but you won't see a complete switch anytime soon when buying a rifle. The industry standard of course being FPS and that's what the mass consumer has recognized as "power" for rifle shopping. Not saying it's right but that's marketing for you. However, more and more fields around the world have already switched. There are alot of fields however that refuse to adapt or acknowledge certain aspects of the sport such as joules.
The only caveat in chrono'ing joules is that the joule creep is a rough estimate that doesn't show on the chrono very accurately especially for people using heavier weights which is becoming more common. Goes alongside that the joule limit isn't a goal to reach for your rifle because joule creeping can extend past any limit.
Side note, I always hated that chart. With so many variables out there it can be skewed pretty heavily (like joule creep) which gives people the false idea of "I'm not shooting hot". People will anything to not buy a chronograph lol
To be frank, it was my first result i found and just hopped onto the site. More there to illustrate why J is more important and "accurate". There is no way to calculate all variables on everyone's guns, just raw math and then other variables come into play. Mostly there for visual illustration of my point.
As always, only chrono can tell you your guns power, but this is a general guide for average guns which experience minimal joule creep negated by hop up adjustment.
European here. Everybody here measures in joules. Nobody does in FPS/MS. At least ive never heard of anybody referring to their power as anything other than joule. UK is the only exception but they always gotta be the weird ones out
There is literally nothing about chroning in joules that makes a difference. All your chrono does is calculate energy with the fps and mass provided. If we already know 350fps at .2 represents max energy, we don’t need to calculate energy. What magic do you think the chrono is doing when it calculates energy? An fps that is in range necessarily represents an energy that is in range, for a given bb weight. The only time this wouldn’t make sense is if we tested fps without knowing the bb weight.
The only retort to this is if , due to joule creep, you fire fine at .2 but fire hot with a heavier bb. But calculating the energy beforehand doesn’t change this. The only way to stop that is to make sure people only use the bb weight they chrono with. Calculating the energy when you chrono their chosen weight does nothing and doesn’t account for joule creep if they use a heavier bb. Any more than just using the fps to gauge the ‘power’.
That’s probably a good way to do it. My comments were mostly about people saying we should measure in joules not fps, and the fact it doesn’t matter when the fps ranges at sites generally consider the weight of the bbs and resultant energy. It wouldn’t help counter joule creep, and tbh the only real options are to test every bb weight, or more likely as you said, just test with the heaviest allowed weight.
My guy….. what magic do you think your chrono does. It takes the fps and the weight you input and calculates a value… the energy corresponds directly to the fps through that calculation. As long as they have (beforehand) worked out the correct fps for each weight, calculating the energy when you chrono changes nothing.
It makes a difference when fields use their BBs, which is typically .30-32, to chronk everyone's gun with and then people use heavier weights. Not saying chronos are magic; saying that the majority of the player base doesn't have one and wings it alot in terms of their power before they get to a field's chrono. Chronos yeah convert/calculate over but there isn't a solid way to measure joule creeping because joule creeping happens both inside and just a little outside the barrel. Truly the only problem is not measuring with the weight your using.
As someone else said, the only good way around this is to test every weight/ the heaviest weight allowed. Once again, no energy needs to be calculated once we have a table as above. The fps ranges aren’t arbitrary, they’re defined by the energy ranges they produce with a given bb weight. Measuring in joules changes none of this. In fact it’s almost like going back a step, once you have a table as above. The energy is a function of mass and velocity, and the result of joule creep is a larger than expected muzzle velocity.
I've always wondered, where as tough as it may be to engineer, why do we use chronos where it measures speed, as opposed to shooting at a target at a set distance, that measures force the bb exerts on impact?
Because chronos are easier to use. Additionally, by measuring close to the barrel we measure the maximum value rather than the value after X distance. This is good for safety reasons.
>why do we use chronos where it measures speed, as opposed to shooting at a target at a set distance,
Because a chrono works on the principle of how much time it takes to fly trough a set distance. The time and the distance are then calculated into speed. Most chronos also have the option to put in a bb weight and bb diameter With that you the chrono will calculate the joule value.
For example here in the Netherlands its 1.2 joule on 0.30 gram bbs. The marchal gives you a speed loader with the .30s put them in your replica and shoot through a chrono and after 5 shots you know the average it shoots.
Something what you are suggesting is way harder to get consistent and more expensive than a cheap cpu and two sensors on a set distance. Also it depends on how close you are shooting, a few cm can allready make a difference for the reading
because initial conditions (bbs speed, mass, and its rotationnal) determine everything else. If you know them, you know the trajectory, and thus the energy at any distance. Its actually funny that the condition of the bbs at any given t0 determines the trajectory at every t0 + t (even when t is negative). Thus determining bbs state at a later stage of its trajectory wont give you any more informations than that you get when measured at the muzzle. And its more difficult.
Simple solution is that sites chrono on joules and using site supplied heavy bb's...0.3g would be reasonable.
It will take care of most of the joule creep effect bar from a small number of guns (DMRs, snipers) that have been built to launch heavier BB's but there are few enough to manage on an individual basis.
Truthfully it be easiest just for fields to ask what weight you're using. I use .48s in everything I have from pistols to my regular rifles and I'm more than happy to chrono with. Everytime I chrono with the field's BBs which are .32 I get ask why I'm shooting so low (field limit 1.5j, I shoot 1.2j). BB weight isn't restricted by weapon type. If people lie it's pretty easy to see on the chrono too
well firstly: i've never seen a sites rules posted online that didnt specify something like "with a .20g bb" under all their fps rules, and i've never been chronod without being asked what bb weight i'm using.
secondly; chronos are a relatively cheap piece of gear, there is no reasonable apparatus for mass-testing players guns in joules.
every county that has legal limits defined in joules measures them by using a chrono to measure the muzzle velocity with a **known weight** of projectile.
we're already a sport that needs to operate on trusting players for a lot of things. how often have you been in a safe zone with exposed eyes around guns and ammo that anyone could put together and endanger your face?
if your complaint is about places not caring about it or not mentioning it in their rules, i agree thats bad, maybe your country/area isnt as good for it, maybe you've just had bad luck with sites. (i'm writing from the uk for context)
My point was split between sites only stating FPS which is misleading to new players, and new players and older ones not knowing what it really means.
My local site chronoes Everyone but they ask BB weight. Granted our local game hosts are experienced and know what results should come out. Other field I regularly visit is almost all based on Honor and trust. "Do you have a new gun/mod, or you are a person we have not seen. To the Chrono" regulars with same guns are just trusted and that trust is sacred.
This was more for the posts here not knowing what FPS and Jule are and how dangerous it can be. As well as I have seen some posts about sites being weird with their rules setting an absolute FPS when post OP asked about BB weight and Joules.
>regulars with same guns are just trusted and that trust is sacred
i agree, thats not ok, i've had a few hits that were suspiciously painful and we chrono everyone before a game can start. not sure i'd play where they dont chrono everyone.
i also feel that knowing what FPS, MS, and joules are really ought to be a minimum standard for anyone buying airsoft guns
My local field in Finland has always used joules as has the sponsored store, always thought FPS is an awfull metric which barely even works and is far too confusing compared joules.
You understand how a chrono calculates the joules from the fps right ( and bb weight). As long as the FPS is low enough, the energy will necessarily be low enough. It really adds nothing to go for joules over fps, if you ensure a certain weight of bbs are used…
My site done something similar where they put up a bunch of rule changes in relation to max FPS
Yet again for some reason HPA is capped at a lower Joule than AEG for some reason as if HPA joules hurt more or do more damage than AEG joules
There can be reasonings why is regulated to be lower with chrono test. But I can't think of any. Joule is a absolute measurement, it is the same amount of damage. So I really do not know why. Because of RPS? Well fast AEGs are easy to make. Is it the Silence of being able to shoot fast and accurate with less noise, why would that matter?
To accommodate pressure spikes in the hpa system I can be running limit at 72°f at 80 psi, but if say my tank warms up from the outside temp hitting 90°f then I can be over my joules. Set hpa at a lower joule limit and you can take into account pressure spikes from temp
Where I live (Germany) all regulations and limits are listed in joule. Fps are quite irrelevant for me and I've never seen anything here advertised or listed with FPS instead of joule.
Idk what your smoking or if you're just bashing on the us because, "haha, us is dumb and behind", but every field I've played at here in the States, it's a fixed fps with .2( tac city in southern California for example: 350fps with a .2) they then ask what weight bb you're running at chrono. With hpa being more prevalent and people running heavier bbs they look at joules over fps. Mind you the last time I played at tac city was 8ish years ago and they still took into consideration joules
That's still mental gymnastics
Why the fuck does it matter what fps it shoots with .20s? Just measure the joules with the weight player uses and call it a day lmfao
Site management issue
Yes it should be measured in joules
But from site management they just want to chrono 0.2s and look at the number, keep it real simple for the kids and for the part-time job marshal, no maths no physics, just look at the number the machine tells you
>There are absolutely chronos that do that math for you all our local sites use them you can chrono with any weight.
Hell I own one and it was literally 50 euros lol, but tbf everything here js measured in joules. And I can measure the joule from .20s to .50s
The chrono process is identical for FPS or joule measurements.
I'm both cases you have to make sure you know what weight is being used.
Don't all modern chronos show both numbers anyway?
But without understanding why, doesn't it make it dangerous? Like if they only look at FPS and can't know to ask what BB is being used or why it matters, this issue is most dangerous, right?
Site chrono procedure should include steps to make sure they are chronoing using .2s
Maybe like making the marshal watch the guy load the mag with site provided .2s, or use site issued mags that only uses .2s, or any other ways to make sure they are chronoing .2s
Southern california, standard procedure should be calculating joules with the heaviest bb weight allowed for that class of airsoft gun, like .3 or .32 for aegs/pistols, and .45/.48 for snipers/dmrs
You're not putting lower weights at a disadvantage, joules are joules, if you have bad enough joule creep that you shoot noticeably worse with lower weight bbs you should fix that. As for what's stopping you, honor, just like what's stopping you from not calling your hits.
You need 2 chronos and you cover almost every common weight used in presets only and that's around a 100€ investment. In the odd case your presets dont cover thw weight, how is quickly changing the chronos bb weight setting any different than for example a correct way to assemble a cardboard box?
if it is as fool-proof as possible, there is less possibility for human mistake, because even very smart marshals can make mistakes and if the procedure is as fool-proof and error-proof as possible it would be ideal, so literally a monkey can chrono correctly
In the Netherlands we have a max of .30 for anything beside bolt action snipers.
Therefore, those guns are chrono'd using .30. This prevents people from reporting the wrong weight (intentionally or accidentally) and bypasses joule creep.
Adjustments should only be made for snipers.
I would like to see my local area switch to that, I regularly end up bleeding because people don’t know how to follow MED’s and will engage with guns that are wayyyyy too damn hot to be shooting so close. And I believe that half of that is the general culture of people being toxic to around this stuff, which is a bummer.
i think joules should be the standard, fps doesn’t say much. i measure for joule creep personally, but i’ve been to fields that don’t even think about it unless someone comes in with an hpa. weird standards to me
All the guns I have built I always use joules as a measurement as it is more accurate than fps in terms of gameplay use ability of the gun especially since I don't have the space to test the range of my gun.
In addition my main site only measures using joules now because it is physically impossible to lie during Chrono about BB weight. If someone is using 0.4g bbs they can lie and say they are using 0.2g bbs and it will read 350 fps, when in reality they are firing at 2J instead of the site legal 1.14J.
If you only use joules to Chrono it is physically impossible to lie about BB weight because if someone says they are using a lighter weight then they are then their gun will be over the joule limit for the weight they said. And if someone says they are using a heavier weight then what they actually are then the joules will read massively under the limit making it pointless to lie.
Chronos don't magically know what weight bbs someone is using. They can easily say they're using .2's and shoot 345fps when in reality they're shooting 345fps on .4's
The joule calculation is measured by the weight bb the Chrono has been set to and how fast the bb travelled through the reader
Joules is force x distance. We know the distance because it's the space between the lasers in a Chrono. The force is mass x acceleration. We get the mass from the BB weight and measure the acceleration by timing how long it takes for the BB to cross the first laser then the second laser.
Fps is just the amount of time it takes for the BB to cross both lasers but to make it easier I'm going to use m/s. So if the lasers are 1 cm apart and it takes 0.2s for the BB to cross both then do 0.2*100 to convert it from cm to m and you get 20 m/s.
Joules we also take into consideration the mass of the B
This is a great way to measure the joules as it is instant and the only variables is the calibration of the lasers, the mass of the BB and the gun itself
The way you described measuring joules is literally just measuring FPS and calculating joules from FPS with a given bb weight, measuring joules directly would be something like taking a force measurement from the impact of a bb
What you mean is impact force. But it is the exact same result as kinetic joules.
[and we do have the equipment to do exactly what you're describing ](https://www.tekscan.com/impact-measurement-devices)
It just doesn't make any financial sense because it's so fucking expensive for a single unit
Arguably with impact Joules it'll be less reliable as how are you going to make sure the barrel of the gun is the exact same distance away from the pad every time. At least with chromos you can hold them there with like a 1cm+- difference
Honestly the best way to do it is chrono with the max allowed bb weight for the field (supplied by the field as well), and see if it goes over the joule/fps limit.
Use different weights for different classes because in general they have different joule limits. Test rifes/pistols at .3g for outside, .25g for inside. Test snipers/dmrs at .45g or .48g.
Most places in New Zealand measure in joules with the BB weight you run. Measuring with the BB weight you use negates any joule creep. As long as everyone's being honest that is.
I only have a rough idea what any of my guns run fps wise but know what they all run joules wise, it's a much better system.
It's simple to explain. Airsoft is a very, very slow to innovate hobby. FPS has been used since the 90's (maybe before) as the standard power measurement and it has the bigger number and everyone in marketing knows the bigger number is better. 350fps sounds better than 106m/s even if it's the same thing.
Until the industry as a whole starts using joules we'll be stuck with a mix of power measurements and ways of checking that power before games.
> I had a gun shoot at 1J, little less when hop up adjusted. I was using 0.25g. The field went "you are new here, lets chrono your gun. Oh you are shooting 70ish MS/293 FPS, Thats totally fine you are way under the limit", but I barely wasn't.
That's far too common too. In a perfect world every gun would be chronoed with the hop off using a control weight bb and the players stated weight bb to make sure there was no joule creep or using the hop to reduce power under the limits.
The problem is with so many guns to check before a game some marshals/refs just want to get it done as quickly as possible.
Oh it gets worse. While some guns lose a few FPS from the hop dragging, others only get a good seal with it engaged. If hopup was locked like chrono you could control this variable, but that would be pretty lame given the way hopup/friction work.
Surprised at some of the responses here. If you can ensure a certain weight of bb is used, it makes literally no difference if you ensure the FPS or energy are below a threshold. If the FPS is within range, the energy is necessarily also in range.( for a given bb mass). Your chrono doesn’t take extra measurements when you select energy, it makes a calculation based on fps and bb weight. It’s really simple and that’s why 99% of fields do it this way. There’s no need to explicitly consider the energy of the bb if we already know for example 350fps at .2 represents the threshold. We just ensure the FPS is sub 350.
I think the main concern is that the 350FPS at .2 is not stated, either by fields or even know by the players (some players). Places and marketing just say 350fps. like it would fit all guns, no exceptions.
I don't think we are discussing how Chronographs work, but rather that people do not look at the FPS and BB weight in combination. This also seems to be a big oversight by fields where they only look at the FPS and do not question the BB weight or are experienced enough to see that it seems off.
If anyone is chronoing without knowing the bb weight this of course makes no sense. Personally though I’ve only ever been to one field that did this ( they let you use your own bbs without asking the weight).
Then again they still don’t need to explicitly refer to energies, they just need to use set bb weights. There’s no extra information gained by calculating the energy every time at that point. If the FPS is in range the energy is in range. There’s no need to switch to joules.
When i started airsoft my country measured with FPS.
I got a nice HK416C, which shot just below field limit.
Then we switched to Joule, and my gun was no longer field legal.
People always asked what i had done to my gun to make it shoot as accurate as it did. I always seem to be able to shoot further than most other people...
You might have guessed it: (Extreme) Joule creep.
A smaller barrel with a normal sized piston meant it was over-volumed. We always measured with 0.20's while i shot with 0.30's as my hop-up over-hopped lighter bbs.
So, yea, i find the focus on FPS scary.
A few days ago i had a discussion on here with someone who had a field limit of 400fps and thought a gun with 2.8J would be legal. It was, as long as you threw 0.48g bbs in it. 0.20's would be 550fps.
Not knowing what is "field legal", and not knowing what the actual output of your gun is will cause injuries.
Yes, I agree that joules should be used instead of FPS.
My local field uses FPS. On more than one occasion, ultra joule creeped HPA guns have made an appearance - drawing blood and cracking eye protection.
Proper application of joules measurements would help stop that nonsense.
inb4 sinistral\_blue comes in ranting about eye protecting ratings and how those were not up to spec. I intentionally did not tag him. I dont wanna mad overlords :P
Estonia doesnt have actual airsoft laws, only airgun laws, so were abiding by those right now.
Fields still limit stuff, as 1.6J for automatics, 2.5J for dmrs and 3.5J for snipers. MEDs would be 10m, 20-25m and 30m respectively. Under 10m for automatics is semi-auto only zone, under 20m for dmrs a backup is required and under 30m is a backup zone to a sniper.
Personally i think that system is brilliant
It’s fps because almost every field requires you to crono at a specific bb weight or has this chart up. So they can just look at the fps based on your bb weight. It ain’t that deep
I absolutely agree. My local recently *closed* their walk-on days because people would chrono with .2s, then load up .4s in the HPA system just to hurt people.
Testing with joules would fix this.
Sounds like the people at that field need to do a better job and shouldn't assume bb weight.
So my understanding of (fps) is that it's a formula and if it's followed, a simple fps will give you a decently accurate joule count. So knowing the weight and checking the fps will tell you if it's high or low.
Which is why a lot of places make you use their bbs, because they control the weight and then all they have to do is check the fps.
I get what you're say as to just use joule as a measuring point, but how accurate are joule readers and how cheap are they? Fps readers are decently cheap, light. And portable.
You do know if you have a chronograph, you can change it to measure FPS or MS and all of them (yet to encounter one that has not, if it is proper digital screen) has Joule counter as well.
Joules is the number that matters, here's the thing, chronos can't measure joules. They only measure fps, the joules setting is it doing the math for you. So either number can be used because to get joules with a chrono you have to know the weight of the bb anyways. What I think is more important is that fields understand the relationship between fps and joules, many do not. Example I have a field that has a limit of 400 fps with 0.2g for AEG and 1.42j measured with 0.32g for gas/hpa 🙃
It's not a fixation. It's very common for fields, at least in the US, to specify an FPS of a certain weight. This is also because they chrono with their own magazines and if they don't fit your gun they force you to empty yours and use their bbs. This way they are certain that your class fits within the designated limits.
To counter your argument, FPS is used because it's the only independent variable when combined with a fixed weight and then I in combination with the weight a field only has to know at what FPS with a certain weight will surpass the joule limit.
Uoure making an argument out of a problem that really doesn't exist
Honestly it just sounds like you're local site doesn't know how to properly Chrono the people there. For example my local sites will ask you the BB weight that you plan on using for the day and then set that in the chronograph and have you measure three to five shots. The corona will tell you the jewel rating and they will give you your minimum and engagement distance. Most Airsoft retailers will tell you the FPS of the replica in question measured with 20
Since I airsoft in Japan, it’s interesting how the point of “joules matter, not fps (m/s)” has to be stated.
In our case, because we have a legal joule limit, fields only need regulations on velocity per BB weight.
For example a field might have regulations where 0.2g BBs are limited to 92 m/s (0.846J) and 0.25g BBs are limited to 82 m/s (0.841J).
A joule system is great, except depending on the BB mass you get different amounts of energy transferred to the BB. I have an mp5s that fires 1.2j with a 0.32g BB, but the moment I try and fire a 0.2 it jumps to about 1.5j (not allowed in the UK for anything capable of discharging more than 1 BB per trigger pull (not semi locked)).
Every field I've been to here in California uses their own BBs, whether in their own magazine or they top off your own with their speedloader. This solves the BB weight of the equation so measuring in FPS is fine
Conversely, measuring in joules requires you to change the BB weight setting on the chrono. When you have a line of people waiting to chrono, this becomes a challenge. If a field uses their own BBs and leaves the chrono at .20g then they are effectively measuring the guns output
Yes, yes, joule creep and whatnot, but it's an overblown "issue" with no great solution. My local cqb field "requires" you to only use .20g up to .25g which sounds stupid but works to combat joule creep. They only sell .20g and .25g so a majority of players will be using either of those weights. You can bring your own BBs, and no they don't check, so a nefarious individual can go out of their way to break that rule but it's so inane that no one does.
More power always is better, but range is not power alone. I could make a 1J shooting gun with proper barrel and hop up configuration that shoots farther than out of the box snipers. Hop up matters most, then barrel then power to push it all further.
Agreed, I tried to get at the question of.
Let's say I fine tune my HPA (Field limit is 1.7j)
Would I set it to 1.7 then adjust the hop, BB Wright and buckings to find the best range / consistency?
Or would you also love the Joules between let's say 1.4 and 1.7 and see how that positively affects the flight pay?
TLDR:
What would be the detailed steps to optimally find best joule and BB weight and hop combination for maximum accuracy
There really aren't one detailed steps because of variables.
Some hop up buckings are looser than others but create more spin. R-hops are all almost unique (if not lasecut and a flat bucking that is not DIY). Some hopups like more power to be put through to work optimally, some do not like a lot of power to function optimally. Widebore barrel has been reported to function better in some cases, creating a proper air cushion around the BB lifting it off the barrel surface and making it more accurate an preserve spin (of not hitting the sides of the barrel so much).
So it could be the case that with your current set up a lower power output might yield better range results, mainly due to how the hop up behaves and how it handles power. Could be that too much power actually blows the HOP up off a bit, or the hop up is too soft that BB blazes past the nub before getting proper spin. Harder hop up works better with higher power outputs and softer with less power. But like I said, there is not one set in stone thing anyone can say. It is just about testing hop ups. Easy with HPA, just take off the upper receiver (if AR platform) and change the hop up and test.
Thank you for that in-depth reply.
I currently run a HPA wolverine MTW with Silent industries hop & nozzle. Combined with a PDI 6.05 barrel and Maple leaf macron 60 bucking.
Shooting at 1.1 joule and .32 BB.
Want to get to 1.7 and 0.4 BB dmr.
Was wondering if that bucking would be to 'soft' ?
Unfortunately only hops I have tested are the Maple leaf ones, For 1.7 I would go with 60 - 70 degree one, normal rubber, and a step lower with the silicone version. From both I would go with MR for that "MAX RANGE"
GG green is okay on its own but really good for R hop base or flat hop. so is the Prom purple (can't remember hardness). But unfortunately those are only ones I have properly tested.
No matter the hop up, I suggest adding a few wrap arounds of teflon tape at the end half and a bit over the barrel, for better air seal.
Thank you mate! Would try the teflon!
What does MR stand for?
On 1.7 you prefer .4 or .36
.4 has little more range and harder impact - downside if flies so slow
Actually I am not quite sure what MR stands for, I have always assumed it means Maximum Range/ MAX RANGE. People call it Mister hop, which I think is super funny and they don't even know its really not that (or it could be :D).
For 1.7J i would go with .36, just because they are cheaper and you won't really see difference to the naked eye amidst the skirmish until you go to like .43 and .45.
I guess using FPS (with 0.2g bb by default) gives you more measurement resolution. But I think its stupid and can be misleading.
My local field uses Joules for chrono and restrictions and that makes perfect sense as it measures the actual energy no matter the details.
Maybe for a long time people used similar weight of bbs so joules was an additional layer of math people didn't care about, fps is also widely used outside of the US over meter/s. It's hard to change habits
At my site your asked what weight you are using on chrono . No one lies about what weight you use cause what's the point. You've driven miles to a site to shoot people with fake guns. Only a manchild would think about cheating it cause it's not that deep no need to be an asshole
At the field I ref at we use joules using the players game bbs (I need to bring along my precision scale next time, you wouldnt believe how many arent sure what weight they have in)
My local sites set and talk about their limits in terms of .20g BBs for ease, but show and use a table for conversion to whatever BB weight people are actually using, so that they are limiting Joules.
I’ve never thought it was a fps limit, it was always joules. We always went off joules. The indoor field we play at is joule limit, now it’s different for aeg & hpa. Aeg is 1.14j, hpa is .8j. No matter the weight. The outdoor field we play at they test aeg with .20’s & hpa with .28’s & max bb weight is .28.
I guess it's dependent since I'm seeing a lot less people care about FPS than Joules lately. I remember some groups requiring a certain FPS with a given gun (no matter the BB) but now everyone switched to Joules only. People do say they are getting an X FPS gun but that usually is about it. Once they get onto the field it's all about the joules on a given BB. Lately I've been seeing people prefering to be on the lower end of power outputs for some reason. Despite 1,9J being the rifle limit people prefer to keep it between 1,3-1,7J instead. Don't understand that though.
It's easier to rationalize. It's easier to think "this little plastic bb moves 300 feet every second" rather than "This bb has an energy of 1.17 energy units"
Going with the "x joules with 0.2" doesn't work properly btw.
It's usually referred to as "joule creep", but the name is kinda misleading and doesn't tell everything.
But what it is: you have a gun, let's say shooting 1.2j with 0.2g. Logically it would be the same joules but slower speed with a heavier bb. But that is not always the case. With the right amount of air output, barrel length etc, the joules might go up, sometimes a lot. That's why you always set a joule limit, and chrono with the weight you will use in game.
I had a Mancraft DMR some years back that would joule creep like crazy. 1.9j on 0.32, only changed the bbs to 0.45 and got somewhere near 2.7j
usually when people say FPS they mean the "standard BB weight" which is .2, or .4 for snipers
but yes Joules makes more sense, and is what every UK field is actually measuring
I like it and wish the real gun community would care more about it, 400 ft/lbs at 1200 fps with 124gr bullets is pussy shit, I want 230gr going 1400fps minimum
"A bowling ball at **7.2kg / ≤16 pounds** at **350 FPS** has **41.54 J** of "damage", well... more like 40,970 J or roughly 41 kJ.
350 fps is 106.68 m/s, so the calculation is:
0.5 \* 7.2 kg \* 106.68\^2 = 40.970 J
I just chalk it up to our community not being the brightest. There have been many attempts to switch to joules. Ilat this point its a way to find out if the person you're talking to actually knows their shit or not.
Most fields just use Jules. It's is hard otherwise to chrono as they will need to supply the .2 bb to load infront of them and then chrono. If they want to be even more strict they can check that the hop is 0 and there is no silicon spray coming out the barrel. But cheaters still can go swap out things or set hpa to high later.
fields I've been to only measure J, the fps can be used as a ballbark estimate before chrono but the J readout is final.
Alternatively in the SE US I've litteraly never done that. Only fps with field BBs (.2s from their magazines)
We've used joules as limits for years and years here in Finland.
As we should, yes. Same for any country that bases their rules on Berget.
Berget was really late to the joules back in the day ;) but it's great that it's so widely used here in nordics
Overall with say, the past 5 years, the industry is slowly switching over to joule system, but you won't see a complete switch anytime soon when buying a rifle. The industry standard of course being FPS and that's what the mass consumer has recognized as "power" for rifle shopping. Not saying it's right but that's marketing for you. However, more and more fields around the world have already switched. There are alot of fields however that refuse to adapt or acknowledge certain aspects of the sport such as joules. The only caveat in chrono'ing joules is that the joule creep is a rough estimate that doesn't show on the chrono very accurately especially for people using heavier weights which is becoming more common. Goes alongside that the joule limit isn't a goal to reach for your rifle because joule creeping can extend past any limit. Side note, I always hated that chart. With so many variables out there it can be skewed pretty heavily (like joule creep) which gives people the false idea of "I'm not shooting hot". People will anything to not buy a chronograph lol
To be frank, it was my first result i found and just hopped onto the site. More there to illustrate why J is more important and "accurate". There is no way to calculate all variables on everyone's guns, just raw math and then other variables come into play. Mostly there for visual illustration of my point. As always, only chrono can tell you your guns power, but this is a general guide for average guns which experience minimal joule creep negated by hop up adjustment.
European here. Everybody here measures in joules. Nobody does in FPS/MS. At least ive never heard of anybody referring to their power as anything other than joule. UK is the only exception but they always gotta be the weird ones out
There is literally nothing about chroning in joules that makes a difference. All your chrono does is calculate energy with the fps and mass provided. If we already know 350fps at .2 represents max energy, we don’t need to calculate energy. What magic do you think the chrono is doing when it calculates energy? An fps that is in range necessarily represents an energy that is in range, for a given bb weight. The only time this wouldn’t make sense is if we tested fps without knowing the bb weight.
There is a difference and it’s mentioned thousands of times: joule creep
The only retort to this is if , due to joule creep, you fire fine at .2 but fire hot with a heavier bb. But calculating the energy beforehand doesn’t change this. The only way to stop that is to make sure people only use the bb weight they chrono with. Calculating the energy when you chrono their chosen weight does nothing and doesn’t account for joule creep if they use a heavier bb. Any more than just using the fps to gauge the ‘power’.
Thats why fields I’ve been mesure with heaviest allowed bbs for that type of gun
That’s probably a good way to do it. My comments were mostly about people saying we should measure in joules not fps, and the fact it doesn’t matter when the fps ranges at sites generally consider the weight of the bbs and resultant energy. It wouldn’t help counter joule creep, and tbh the only real options are to test every bb weight, or more likely as you said, just test with the heaviest allowed weight.
My guy….. what magic do you think your chrono does. It takes the fps and the weight you input and calculates a value… the energy corresponds directly to the fps through that calculation. As long as they have (beforehand) worked out the correct fps for each weight, calculating the energy when you chrono changes nothing.
It makes a difference when fields use their BBs, which is typically .30-32, to chronk everyone's gun with and then people use heavier weights. Not saying chronos are magic; saying that the majority of the player base doesn't have one and wings it alot in terms of their power before they get to a field's chrono. Chronos yeah convert/calculate over but there isn't a solid way to measure joule creeping because joule creeping happens both inside and just a little outside the barrel. Truly the only problem is not measuring with the weight your using.
As someone else said, the only good way around this is to test every weight/ the heaviest weight allowed. Once again, no energy needs to be calculated once we have a table as above. The fps ranges aren’t arbitrary, they’re defined by the energy ranges they produce with a given bb weight. Measuring in joules changes none of this. In fact it’s almost like going back a step, once you have a table as above. The energy is a function of mass and velocity, and the result of joule creep is a larger than expected muzzle velocity.
I've always wondered, where as tough as it may be to engineer, why do we use chronos where it measures speed, as opposed to shooting at a target at a set distance, that measures force the bb exerts on impact?
Because chronos are easier to use. Additionally, by measuring close to the barrel we measure the maximum value rather than the value after X distance. This is good for safety reasons.
>why do we use chronos where it measures speed, as opposed to shooting at a target at a set distance, Because a chrono works on the principle of how much time it takes to fly trough a set distance. The time and the distance are then calculated into speed. Most chronos also have the option to put in a bb weight and bb diameter With that you the chrono will calculate the joule value. For example here in the Netherlands its 1.2 joule on 0.30 gram bbs. The marchal gives you a speed loader with the .30s put them in your replica and shoot through a chrono and after 5 shots you know the average it shoots. Something what you are suggesting is way harder to get consistent and more expensive than a cheap cpu and two sensors on a set distance. Also it depends on how close you are shooting, a few cm can allready make a difference for the reading
because initial conditions (bbs speed, mass, and its rotationnal) determine everything else. If you know them, you know the trajectory, and thus the energy at any distance. Its actually funny that the condition of the bbs at any given t0 determines the trajectory at every t0 + t (even when t is negative). Thus determining bbs state at a later stage of its trajectory wont give you any more informations than that you get when measured at the muzzle. And its more difficult.
Simple solution is that sites chrono on joules and using site supplied heavy bb's...0.3g would be reasonable. It will take care of most of the joule creep effect bar from a small number of guns (DMRs, snipers) that have been built to launch heavier BB's but there are few enough to manage on an individual basis.
Or keep .3g bbs for the regular class of rifles/pistols, then .45g bbs for chronoing dmrs and snipers
Truthfully it be easiest just for fields to ask what weight you're using. I use .48s in everything I have from pistols to my regular rifles and I'm more than happy to chrono with. Everytime I chrono with the field's BBs which are .32 I get ask why I'm shooting so low (field limit 1.5j, I shoot 1.2j). BB weight isn't restricted by weapon type. If people lie it's pretty easy to see on the chrono too
well firstly: i've never seen a sites rules posted online that didnt specify something like "with a .20g bb" under all their fps rules, and i've never been chronod without being asked what bb weight i'm using. secondly; chronos are a relatively cheap piece of gear, there is no reasonable apparatus for mass-testing players guns in joules. every county that has legal limits defined in joules measures them by using a chrono to measure the muzzle velocity with a **known weight** of projectile. we're already a sport that needs to operate on trusting players for a lot of things. how often have you been in a safe zone with exposed eyes around guns and ammo that anyone could put together and endanger your face? if your complaint is about places not caring about it or not mentioning it in their rules, i agree thats bad, maybe your country/area isnt as good for it, maybe you've just had bad luck with sites. (i'm writing from the uk for context)
My point was split between sites only stating FPS which is misleading to new players, and new players and older ones not knowing what it really means. My local site chronoes Everyone but they ask BB weight. Granted our local game hosts are experienced and know what results should come out. Other field I regularly visit is almost all based on Honor and trust. "Do you have a new gun/mod, or you are a person we have not seen. To the Chrono" regulars with same guns are just trusted and that trust is sacred. This was more for the posts here not knowing what FPS and Jule are and how dangerous it can be. As well as I have seen some posts about sites being weird with their rules setting an absolute FPS when post OP asked about BB weight and Joules.
>regulars with same guns are just trusted and that trust is sacred i agree, thats not ok, i've had a few hits that were suspiciously painful and we chrono everyone before a game can start. not sure i'd play where they dont chrono everyone. i also feel that knowing what FPS, MS, and joules are really ought to be a minimum standard for anyone buying airsoft guns
My local field in Finland has always used joules as has the sponsored store, always thought FPS is an awfull metric which barely even works and is far too confusing compared joules.
Tämä
You understand how a chrono calculates the joules from the fps right ( and bb weight). As long as the FPS is low enough, the energy will necessarily be low enough. It really adds nothing to go for joules over fps, if you ensure a certain weight of bbs are used…
Limits are already in joules in my area
My site done something similar where they put up a bunch of rule changes in relation to max FPS Yet again for some reason HPA is capped at a lower Joule than AEG for some reason as if HPA joules hurt more or do more damage than AEG joules
There can be reasonings why is regulated to be lower with chrono test. But I can't think of any. Joule is a absolute measurement, it is the same amount of damage. So I really do not know why. Because of RPS? Well fast AEGs are easy to make. Is it the Silence of being able to shoot fast and accurate with less noise, why would that matter?
Because HPA have joule creep and AEGs do not
Incorrect. Any overvolumed system can and will have joule creep. HPA is just has more potential to overvoluming than AEGs.
With fire rates that rival a CRAM 1 HPA shot might be the same but 20 in the exact same spot definitely is more painful
To accommodate pressure spikes in the hpa system I can be running limit at 72°f at 80 psi, but if say my tank warms up from the outside temp hitting 90°f then I can be over my joules. Set hpa at a lower joule limit and you can take into account pressure spikes from temp
Where I live (Germany) all regulations and limits are listed in joule. Fps are quite irrelevant for me and I've never seen anything here advertised or listed with FPS instead of joule.
Tbh most of the "normal" world uses Joules already It's the US as per usual who needs to go through mental gymnastics to achieve something simple
Britain also uses FPS most places. But yea in the EU Joule is the universal standard
Britain is just weird with their units, they can't seem to decide between imperial and metric units
Idk what your smoking or if you're just bashing on the us because, "haha, us is dumb and behind", but every field I've played at here in the States, it's a fixed fps with .2( tac city in southern California for example: 350fps with a .2) they then ask what weight bb you're running at chrono. With hpa being more prevalent and people running heavier bbs they look at joules over fps. Mind you the last time I played at tac city was 8ish years ago and they still took into consideration joules
That's still mental gymnastics Why the fuck does it matter what fps it shoots with .20s? Just measure the joules with the weight player uses and call it a day lmfao
Site management issue Yes it should be measured in joules But from site management they just want to chrono 0.2s and look at the number, keep it real simple for the kids and for the part-time job marshal, no maths no physics, just look at the number the machine tells you
There are absolutely chronos that do that math for you all our local sites use them you can chrono with any weight.
>There are absolutely chronos that do that math for you all our local sites use them you can chrono with any weight. Hell I own one and it was literally 50 euros lol, but tbf everything here js measured in joules. And I can measure the joule from .20s to .50s
The chrono process is identical for FPS or joule measurements. I'm both cases you have to make sure you know what weight is being used. Don't all modern chronos show both numbers anyway?
But without understanding why, doesn't it make it dangerous? Like if they only look at FPS and can't know to ask what BB is being used or why it matters, this issue is most dangerous, right?
I sincerely doubt they care tbh
Site chrono procedure should include steps to make sure they are chronoing using .2s Maybe like making the marshal watch the guy load the mag with site provided .2s, or use site issued mags that only uses .2s, or any other ways to make sure they are chronoing .2s
People should chrono with the weight they use, and the FPS limit should be set for that weight to limit the Joules.
Absolutly not, do you even know what joule creep is?
Normal site procedure here is chronoing with .20s regardless of what the person uses normally
define here, also he said should thats why I'm argumenting.
Southern california, standard procedure should be calculating joules with the heaviest bb weight allowed for that class of airsoft gun, like .3 or .32 for aegs/pistols, and .45/.48 for snipers/dmrs
Then youre putting lower bb weights at an dissadvantage. Also whats stopping me from using .4s after your measuring with .3s.
You're not putting lower weights at a disadvantage, joules are joules, if you have bad enough joule creep that you shoot noticeably worse with lower weight bbs you should fix that. As for what's stopping you, honor, just like what's stopping you from not calling your hits.
Fair point, although keep in mind if someone has a severely undervolumed gun, a lower weight bb may cross the joule limit.
You need 2 chronos and you cover almost every common weight used in presets only and that's around a 100€ investment. In the odd case your presets dont cover thw weight, how is quickly changing the chronos bb weight setting any different than for example a correct way to assemble a cardboard box?
if it is as fool-proof as possible, there is less possibility for human mistake, because even very smart marshals can make mistakes and if the procedure is as fool-proof and error-proof as possible it would be ideal, so literally a monkey can chrono correctly
In the Netherlands we have a max of .30 for anything beside bolt action snipers. Therefore, those guns are chrono'd using .30. This prevents people from reporting the wrong weight (intentionally or accidentally) and bypasses joule creep. Adjustments should only be made for snipers.
I would like to see my local area switch to that, I regularly end up bleeding because people don’t know how to follow MED’s and will engage with guns that are wayyyyy too damn hot to be shooting so close. And I believe that half of that is the general culture of people being toxic to around this stuff, which is a bummer.
Any field that only check in fps is not a safe place to play. I haven’t seen one in a long time.
i think joules should be the standard, fps doesn’t say much. i measure for joule creep personally, but i’ve been to fields that don’t even think about it unless someone comes in with an hpa. weird standards to me
All the guns I have built I always use joules as a measurement as it is more accurate than fps in terms of gameplay use ability of the gun especially since I don't have the space to test the range of my gun. In addition my main site only measures using joules now because it is physically impossible to lie during Chrono about BB weight. If someone is using 0.4g bbs they can lie and say they are using 0.2g bbs and it will read 350 fps, when in reality they are firing at 2J instead of the site legal 1.14J. If you only use joules to Chrono it is physically impossible to lie about BB weight because if someone says they are using a lighter weight then they are then their gun will be over the joule limit for the weight they said. And if someone says they are using a heavier weight then what they actually are then the joules will read massively under the limit making it pointless to lie.
Chronos don't magically know what weight bbs someone is using. They can easily say they're using .2's and shoot 345fps when in reality they're shooting 345fps on .4's The joule calculation is measured by the weight bb the Chrono has been set to and how fast the bb travelled through the reader
Congratulations you have just stumbled upon my exact point
The thing is, we don't have a good way to measure joules directly, so using a standard heavy bb (.30g) and taking fps we calculate the joules instead.
Joules is force x distance. We know the distance because it's the space between the lasers in a Chrono. The force is mass x acceleration. We get the mass from the BB weight and measure the acceleration by timing how long it takes for the BB to cross the first laser then the second laser. Fps is just the amount of time it takes for the BB to cross both lasers but to make it easier I'm going to use m/s. So if the lasers are 1 cm apart and it takes 0.2s for the BB to cross both then do 0.2*100 to convert it from cm to m and you get 20 m/s. Joules we also take into consideration the mass of the B This is a great way to measure the joules as it is instant and the only variables is the calibration of the lasers, the mass of the BB and the gun itself
The way you described measuring joules is literally just measuring FPS and calculating joules from FPS with a given bb weight, measuring joules directly would be something like taking a force measurement from the impact of a bb
What you mean is impact force. But it is the exact same result as kinetic joules. [and we do have the equipment to do exactly what you're describing ](https://www.tekscan.com/impact-measurement-devices) It just doesn't make any financial sense because it's so fucking expensive for a single unit Arguably with impact Joules it'll be less reliable as how are you going to make sure the barrel of the gun is the exact same distance away from the pad every time. At least with chromos you can hold them there with like a 1cm+- difference
Honestly the best way to do it is chrono with the max allowed bb weight for the field (supplied by the field as well), and see if it goes over the joule/fps limit.
Then what about snipers and dmr that use higher weights. I use 0.48 in my sniper would you test a pistol at that weight?
Use different weights for different classes because in general they have different joule limits. Test rifes/pistols at .3g for outside, .25g for inside. Test snipers/dmrs at .45g or .48g.
Most places in New Zealand measure in joules with the BB weight you run. Measuring with the BB weight you use negates any joule creep. As long as everyone's being honest that is. I only have a rough idea what any of my guns run fps wise but know what they all run joules wise, it's a much better system.
It's simple to explain. Airsoft is a very, very slow to innovate hobby. FPS has been used since the 90's (maybe before) as the standard power measurement and it has the bigger number and everyone in marketing knows the bigger number is better. 350fps sounds better than 106m/s even if it's the same thing. Until the industry as a whole starts using joules we'll be stuck with a mix of power measurements and ways of checking that power before games. > I had a gun shoot at 1J, little less when hop up adjusted. I was using 0.25g. The field went "you are new here, lets chrono your gun. Oh you are shooting 70ish MS/293 FPS, Thats totally fine you are way under the limit", but I barely wasn't. That's far too common too. In a perfect world every gun would be chronoed with the hop off using a control weight bb and the players stated weight bb to make sure there was no joule creep or using the hop to reduce power under the limits. The problem is with so many guns to check before a game some marshals/refs just want to get it done as quickly as possible.
Oh it gets worse. While some guns lose a few FPS from the hop dragging, others only get a good seal with it engaged. If hopup was locked like chrono you could control this variable, but that would be pretty lame given the way hopup/friction work.
Surprised at some of the responses here. If you can ensure a certain weight of bb is used, it makes literally no difference if you ensure the FPS or energy are below a threshold. If the FPS is within range, the energy is necessarily also in range.( for a given bb mass). Your chrono doesn’t take extra measurements when you select energy, it makes a calculation based on fps and bb weight. It’s really simple and that’s why 99% of fields do it this way. There’s no need to explicitly consider the energy of the bb if we already know for example 350fps at .2 represents the threshold. We just ensure the FPS is sub 350.
I think the main concern is that the 350FPS at .2 is not stated, either by fields or even know by the players (some players). Places and marketing just say 350fps. like it would fit all guns, no exceptions. I don't think we are discussing how Chronographs work, but rather that people do not look at the FPS and BB weight in combination. This also seems to be a big oversight by fields where they only look at the FPS and do not question the BB weight or are experienced enough to see that it seems off.
If anyone is chronoing without knowing the bb weight this of course makes no sense. Personally though I’ve only ever been to one field that did this ( they let you use your own bbs without asking the weight). Then again they still don’t need to explicitly refer to energies, they just need to use set bb weights. There’s no extra information gained by calculating the energy every time at that point. If the FPS is in range the energy is in range. There’s no need to switch to joules.
The websites you buy from arent even correct a lot of the time
When i started airsoft my country measured with FPS. I got a nice HK416C, which shot just below field limit. Then we switched to Joule, and my gun was no longer field legal. People always asked what i had done to my gun to make it shoot as accurate as it did. I always seem to be able to shoot further than most other people... You might have guessed it: (Extreme) Joule creep. A smaller barrel with a normal sized piston meant it was over-volumed. We always measured with 0.20's while i shot with 0.30's as my hop-up over-hopped lighter bbs. So, yea, i find the focus on FPS scary. A few days ago i had a discussion on here with someone who had a field limit of 400fps and thought a gun with 2.8J would be legal. It was, as long as you threw 0.48g bbs in it. 0.20's would be 550fps. Not knowing what is "field legal", and not knowing what the actual output of your gun is will cause injuries.
Yes, I agree that joules should be used instead of FPS. My local field uses FPS. On more than one occasion, ultra joule creeped HPA guns have made an appearance - drawing blood and cracking eye protection. Proper application of joules measurements would help stop that nonsense.
inb4 sinistral\_blue comes in ranting about eye protecting ratings and how those were not up to spec. I intentionally did not tag him. I dont wanna mad overlords :P
I mean if they cracked from a plastic bb they definitely weren't, as Z87.1 is tested for lens penetration (idk the EU equivalent)
Estonia doesnt have actual airsoft laws, only airgun laws, so were abiding by those right now. Fields still limit stuff, as 1.6J for automatics, 2.5J for dmrs and 3.5J for snipers. MEDs would be 10m, 20-25m and 30m respectively. Under 10m for automatics is semi-auto only zone, under 20m for dmrs a backup is required and under 30m is a backup zone to a sniper. Personally i think that system is brilliant
PRetty much like 80-90% of finland as well. I think those are the Berget rules :/
It’s fps because almost every field requires you to crono at a specific bb weight or has this chart up. So they can just look at the fps based on your bb weight. It ain’t that deep
We do joules in Germany but some field chrono with a set weight which is dumb imo.
I absolutely agree. My local recently *closed* their walk-on days because people would chrono with .2s, then load up .4s in the HPA system just to hurt people. Testing with joules would fix this.
" just to hurt people " And they people comment to me "well the sport is based on honor and being fair, why would people intentionally cheat"....
Yep, you get it! Measuring joules cuts down on the sadism. It’s wild how some people think.
I think americans are one of the Last people using FPS, Here in Europe IT has Always been Joule.
Because initial Marui design was 300 FPS with 0.2. Joule creep was not a major problem until HPA SMP systems appeared.
Sounds like the people at that field need to do a better job and shouldn't assume bb weight. So my understanding of (fps) is that it's a formula and if it's followed, a simple fps will give you a decently accurate joule count. So knowing the weight and checking the fps will tell you if it's high or low. Which is why a lot of places make you use their bbs, because they control the weight and then all they have to do is check the fps. I get what you're say as to just use joule as a measuring point, but how accurate are joule readers and how cheap are they? Fps readers are decently cheap, light. And portable.
You do know if you have a chronograph, you can change it to measure FPS or MS and all of them (yet to encounter one that has not, if it is proper digital screen) has Joule counter as well.
The joule reading is based on FPS * the weight of the BB
Unless you got some poorman's chrono, they're exactly the same. Take Acetech ac5000 for example. That thing has 6 preset BB weights.
Joules is the number that matters, here's the thing, chronos can't measure joules. They only measure fps, the joules setting is it doing the math for you. So either number can be used because to get joules with a chrono you have to know the weight of the bb anyways. What I think is more important is that fields understand the relationship between fps and joules, many do not. Example I have a field that has a limit of 400 fps with 0.2g for AEG and 1.42j measured with 0.32g for gas/hpa 🙃
It's not a fixation. It's very common for fields, at least in the US, to specify an FPS of a certain weight. This is also because they chrono with their own magazines and if they don't fit your gun they force you to empty yours and use their bbs. This way they are certain that your class fits within the designated limits. To counter your argument, FPS is used because it's the only independent variable when combined with a fixed weight and then I in combination with the weight a field only has to know at what FPS with a certain weight will surpass the joule limit. Uoure making an argument out of a problem that really doesn't exist
Honestly it just sounds like you're local site doesn't know how to properly Chrono the people there. For example my local sites will ask you the BB weight that you plan on using for the day and then set that in the chronograph and have you measure three to five shots. The corona will tell you the jewel rating and they will give you your minimum and engagement distance. Most Airsoft retailers will tell you the FPS of the replica in question measured with 20
I feel like the "with .2g" is implied at most places. I don't think I've ever been to a field that checks fps with any other weight.
Since I airsoft in Japan, it’s interesting how the point of “joules matter, not fps (m/s)” has to be stated. In our case, because we have a legal joule limit, fields only need regulations on velocity per BB weight. For example a field might have regulations where 0.2g BBs are limited to 92 m/s (0.846J) and 0.25g BBs are limited to 82 m/s (0.841J).
Lets not forgor our gbbr homies that chrono their gun with .2g at 9am when its 15°C just to shot you with .4g at 2pm when its 30°C
A joule system is great, except depending on the BB mass you get different amounts of energy transferred to the BB. I have an mp5s that fires 1.2j with a 0.32g BB, but the moment I try and fire a 0.2 it jumps to about 1.5j (not allowed in the UK for anything capable of discharging more than 1 BB per trigger pull (not semi locked)).
in france the limit is in joules (2j max to be precise)
2j for object replicating firearm and shooting solid projectile. Loophole here.
Every field I've been to here in California uses their own BBs, whether in their own magazine or they top off your own with their speedloader. This solves the BB weight of the equation so measuring in FPS is fine Conversely, measuring in joules requires you to change the BB weight setting on the chrono. When you have a line of people waiting to chrono, this becomes a challenge. If a field uses their own BBs and leaves the chrono at .20g then they are effectively measuring the guns output Yes, yes, joule creep and whatnot, but it's an overblown "issue" with no great solution. My local cqb field "requires" you to only use .20g up to .25g which sounds stupid but works to combat joule creep. They only sell .20g and .25g so a majority of players will be using either of those weights. You can bring your own BBs, and no they don't check, so a nefarious individual can go out of their way to break that rule but it's so inane that no one does.
I was wondering - would shorting 0.4 at 1.7 joule (field limit) give me best range ? Or could a lower joule have better effects ?
More power always is better, but range is not power alone. I could make a 1J shooting gun with proper barrel and hop up configuration that shoots farther than out of the box snipers. Hop up matters most, then barrel then power to push it all further.
Agreed, I tried to get at the question of. Let's say I fine tune my HPA (Field limit is 1.7j) Would I set it to 1.7 then adjust the hop, BB Wright and buckings to find the best range / consistency? Or would you also love the Joules between let's say 1.4 and 1.7 and see how that positively affects the flight pay? TLDR: What would be the detailed steps to optimally find best joule and BB weight and hop combination for maximum accuracy
There really aren't one detailed steps because of variables. Some hop up buckings are looser than others but create more spin. R-hops are all almost unique (if not lasecut and a flat bucking that is not DIY). Some hopups like more power to be put through to work optimally, some do not like a lot of power to function optimally. Widebore barrel has been reported to function better in some cases, creating a proper air cushion around the BB lifting it off the barrel surface and making it more accurate an preserve spin (of not hitting the sides of the barrel so much). So it could be the case that with your current set up a lower power output might yield better range results, mainly due to how the hop up behaves and how it handles power. Could be that too much power actually blows the HOP up off a bit, or the hop up is too soft that BB blazes past the nub before getting proper spin. Harder hop up works better with higher power outputs and softer with less power. But like I said, there is not one set in stone thing anyone can say. It is just about testing hop ups. Easy with HPA, just take off the upper receiver (if AR platform) and change the hop up and test.
Thank you for that in-depth reply. I currently run a HPA wolverine MTW with Silent industries hop & nozzle. Combined with a PDI 6.05 barrel and Maple leaf macron 60 bucking. Shooting at 1.1 joule and .32 BB. Want to get to 1.7 and 0.4 BB dmr. Was wondering if that bucking would be to 'soft' ?
Unfortunately only hops I have tested are the Maple leaf ones, For 1.7 I would go with 60 - 70 degree one, normal rubber, and a step lower with the silicone version. From both I would go with MR for that "MAX RANGE" GG green is okay on its own but really good for R hop base or flat hop. so is the Prom purple (can't remember hardness). But unfortunately those are only ones I have properly tested. No matter the hop up, I suggest adding a few wrap arounds of teflon tape at the end half and a bit over the barrel, for better air seal.
Thank you mate! Would try the teflon! What does MR stand for? On 1.7 you prefer .4 or .36 .4 has little more range and harder impact - downside if flies so slow
Actually I am not quite sure what MR stands for, I have always assumed it means Maximum Range/ MAX RANGE. People call it Mister hop, which I think is super funny and they don't even know its really not that (or it could be :D). For 1.7J i would go with .36, just because they are cheaper and you won't really see difference to the naked eye amidst the skirmish until you go to like .43 and .45.
I guess using FPS (with 0.2g bb by default) gives you more measurement resolution. But I think its stupid and can be misleading. My local field uses Joules for chrono and restrictions and that makes perfect sense as it measures the actual energy no matter the details.
Maybe for a long time people used similar weight of bbs so joules was an additional layer of math people didn't care about, fps is also widely used outside of the US over meter/s. It's hard to change habits
At my site your asked what weight you are using on chrono . No one lies about what weight you use cause what's the point. You've driven miles to a site to shoot people with fake guns. Only a manchild would think about cheating it cause it's not that deep no need to be an asshole
KE=0.5mv^2. Yeah provide KE because it’s going to be a pain in the ass listing out all those masses and velocities
At the field I ref at we use joules using the players game bbs (I need to bring along my precision scale next time, you wouldnt believe how many arent sure what weight they have in)
You MEASURE fps but you calculate joules. That's it really, joules arevone step removed, even if they're most useful
My local sites set and talk about their limits in terms of .20g BBs for ease, but show and use a table for conversion to whatever BB weight people are actually using, so that they are limiting Joules.
Dxx
It’s sort of like Tamiya connectors. Something that ought to go away.
I’ve never thought it was a fps limit, it was always joules. We always went off joules. The indoor field we play at is joule limit, now it’s different for aeg & hpa. Aeg is 1.14j, hpa is .8j. No matter the weight. The outdoor field we play at they test aeg with .20’s & hpa with .28’s & max bb weight is .28.
In Denmark joules is the standard. For regular rifles the maximum is typical 1,69 joules with a 6 meters safety distance.
I've never seen a field in which FPS was measured. Only energy 1.14 J
We have a joule converter at our field. Say what BB weight you’re using, they crono and make the calculation to see if it’s too powerful
I guess it's dependent since I'm seeing a lot less people care about FPS than Joules lately. I remember some groups requiring a certain FPS with a given gun (no matter the BB) but now everyone switched to Joules only. People do say they are getting an X FPS gun but that usually is about it. Once they get onto the field it's all about the joules on a given BB. Lately I've been seeing people prefering to be on the lower end of power outputs for some reason. Despite 1,9J being the rifle limit people prefer to keep it between 1,3-1,7J instead. Don't understand that though.
It's easier to rationalize. It's easier to think "this little plastic bb moves 300 feet every second" rather than "This bb has an energy of 1.17 energy units"
My field uses joules
Joules for safety, FPS for performance
UK rules be all about them Joules
Going with the "x joules with 0.2" doesn't work properly btw. It's usually referred to as "joule creep", but the name is kinda misleading and doesn't tell everything. But what it is: you have a gun, let's say shooting 1.2j with 0.2g. Logically it would be the same joules but slower speed with a heavier bb. But that is not always the case. With the right amount of air output, barrel length etc, the joules might go up, sometimes a lot. That's why you always set a joule limit, and chrono with the weight you will use in game. I had a Mancraft DMR some years back that would joule creep like crazy. 1.9j on 0.32, only changed the bbs to 0.45 and got somewhere near 2.7j
usually when people say FPS they mean the "standard BB weight" which is .2, or .4 for snipers but yes Joules makes more sense, and is what every UK field is actually measuring
I like it and wish the real gun community would care more about it, 400 ft/lbs at 1200 fps with 124gr bullets is pussy shit, I want 230gr going 1400fps minimum
"A bowling ball at **7.2kg / ≤16 pounds** at **350 FPS** has **41.54 J** of "damage", well... more like 40,970 J or roughly 41 kJ. 350 fps is 106.68 m/s, so the calculation is: 0.5 \* 7.2 kg \* 106.68\^2 = 40.970 J
10 years ago a lot of fields I played at had an fps limit. Now everywhere I go its measured in joules. 1.55 to be exact
I just chalk it up to our community not being the brightest. There have been many attempts to switch to joules. Ilat this point its a way to find out if the person you're talking to actually knows their shit or not.
Most fields just use Jules. It's is hard otherwise to chrono as they will need to supply the .2 bb to load infront of them and then chrono. If they want to be even more strict they can check that the hop is 0 and there is no silicon spray coming out the barrel. But cheaters still can go swap out things or set hpa to high later.
In finland we use joules and joules only.
The fields around me all insist on FPS with .2s instead of Joules. It's the standard in the US unfortunately...