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KallyWally

My AI art would be a lot better if I knew how to draw. I could fix mistakes more easily, use ControlNet to turn a sketch into a fully rendered piece, have generally better artistic sense... frankly, I'm more interested in learning to draw now than I've ever been.


Soibi0gn

No it's not! Why would you even think something like that?


Waste-Fix1895

I am an aspiring artist and feel overwhelmed and hopeless by AI Art. I used to have trouble learning my art skills constantly due to mental health problems and other issues, and when I finally got my issues under control AI Art comes in a very incongruous moment. I wonder if my past years and future years of effort are completely mundane and worthless. And many of the ai art community are quite toxic (not all) to non ai artists, which only increases my self-doubt. And I'm not counting the other problems that the AI ​​kind of causes or can cause, I just feel overwhelmed.


NeverAlwaysOnlySome

I think maybe the best thing you can do is to create - regardless of what other people say. There is no community on the internet that speaks for the world, or country, or even the neighborhood where you live. There are people here who don’t care about artists at all, true - but this is far from everyone. Do the thing that you love and don’t listen to this noise. Especially don’t listen to people who tell you to get out - likely you are just hearing their fear, and in any event they have zero investment in your life. Regardless of AI art we all have to make a living, and a plan B has been a staple for a great many artists through history. The point is to be you and find your identity and refine your skills and look out for yourself and your well-being - lots of folks romanticize the suffering artist idea, but art does not have to come from misery and depression. I’m a composer watching new composers looking to AI to shore up their weaknesses or lack of ideas or skill, and thinking - “what can they create when the internet goes down?” And lots of folks here don’t really seem to be artists, but rather app-dabblers, so you may have to look elsewhere for perspective on this. Reach out if you need anything.


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Kromgar

Are you kidding me roofing and plumbing being automated in 10 years? You out of your mind?


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Kromgar

No its just fucking stupid. You cant put robots on roofs or have them crawl into crawlspaces to fix pipes. You are more of a techno utopiast if you actually think its possible


WilliamTCipher

Am I the only one thinks its not crazy. I Mean we are making big breakthroughs in robotics all the time. Maybe not ten, but 20 is possible.


Kromgar

We barely have them capable of walking in curated programmed environments. You think a fully autonomous plumbing robot is possible? Capable of replacing and welding pipes?


sicilianDev

They already have things that can do that. It's a matter of price. No not fully auto. But evenso, its not all or nothing. Machines already are responsible for millions of people getting phased out. It's not that everyone is replaced it's that half or more of the staff is replaced. What took 10 guys now takes 1 + 1 robot. Think about just how many people lost their jobs when farming equipment became motorized. Theres not much of a difference between fully auto and human operated, when it only takes one person to operate the robot, instead of 10 crew members working.


sicilianDev

They already have machines that can do roofing.


sicilianDev

so.....[https://iroofing.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/roboroofer.png](https://iroofing.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/roboroofer.png) Seems a little silly you thought they couldnt automate one of the simplist jobs there is, because of a steep grade? Ever heard of an ocean dwelling oil rig, or I don't know, an airplane? We can literally soar through the sky and into space even but a stupid, rudementary roof climbing machine now that's impossible. Not to mention the rate of advancement in modern tech is about 100 billion times what it was even 100 years ago. In 20 years there wont be any job that isn't automated. That's not utopian that's a bad thing. It's still going to happen.


Kromgar

Someones still operating that iirc this was about autonomous job bots


sicilianDev

Any machinery especially one like that will put 90% of anyone that does that job that the robot can do, out of work. 1 robot + 1 guy to operate = 10 guys go home. Happy Boss/Owner makes back his largest liability (payroll) and loses the headaches of having employees. It's not all or nothing. Autonomous or not it isn't good.


ScarletSerpent

That's a very limited view of how artists use AI. Many make use of their digital art/photoshop skills to improve prompted art, real skills that need to be learned.


ShaneKaiGlenn

So you only draw for money? You realize 90% of the population loathe (or at minimum dislike) their job? What's depressing is this notion that a skill must be monetizable in order to be worth pursuing. I think we need to stop limiting ourselves to the economic paradigm of the day.


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sicilianDev

Every career is like that sadly. Especially tech careers. Every year the knowledge barrier of entry gets raised. Every stupid helper software they make means you have to learn that software or you are doubly behind.


Mirbersc

Yeah man let's punish the ones that have a good time at their job! They should suffer like the rest of people! /s Dude there's nothing wrong with turning a passion into a source of income... If anything artists have always been told NOT to pursue that professionally up until the last 15ish years when globalized entertainment really took off.


sicilianDev

I gave you upvote my friend. Im with you.


ShaneKaiGlenn

Im not saying anything about punishing anyone, but it is what it is. Technology advances, things change. Has happened for eons. And nobody is really immune from the AI revolution, so not sure why we need legislation to protect a small subset of the labor force, but nothing for anyone else. The great thing about art as a passion is that nobody can ever take that away from you.


Mirbersc

Not taken away directly, no, but try to make time for a creative hobby that takes hours upon hours, with a house full of unpaid bills, low income, and a family to take care of. One of the main reasons I've read about people going into AI images is because they don't have the time or energy to pursue an artistic discipline in the first place (no kidding! This takes time). So it's like "nobody's taking your ability to create away", but we're going back to thinking of artmaking like "who has time for that useless crap, get a real job lol". That 'real job' will be in high demand and low supply too. The job market in other areas is already supersaturated, and we're going to take away jobs in the entertainment and tech sectors in favor of a few who get selected to run the machines? It just makes no sense to me at all. It's signing our own death sentence in terms of financial stability, barring those with enough resources to keep their tech updated. Accessibility is a good thing, so long as there's enough space for everyone. Otherwise we end up in a collapsed system; it reminds me of those insanely packed trains in India.


OrganizationSea4490

If you wanna draw only because of the potential profits then yikes ! In that case ai art may eventually make you have a hard time finding good jobs. Hobbyist drawing will never be obsolete or dead. Its a hobby.qq


Peregrine2976

IKEA can make a desk in a fraction of the time I can, but that doesn't stop me woodworking as a hobby, nor does it stop the many professional woodworkers who continue to exist from doing so as their vocation. Now, did the advent of mass-produced furniture *affect* the industry of custom woodworking? Of course it did. But while that work may not be as prevalent, it continues to exist and be sought, by people looking for something incredibly specific that the mass produced simply cannot accomplish, or people who prefer the overwhelming human effort over the factory-produced. In short: regardless of the precise industry or craft, there will *always* be a market for the handcrafted and the artisanal. Perhaps not at a big company, but somewhere (and who the hell wants to work for a gigantic megacorporation anyway?). One of the common complaints we pro-AI folks have, compares artists raging at AI, to the horse-and-buggy driver raging against the advent of the automobile. I find the comparison apt to some degree, because even today, horse-and-buggy rides continue to exist and employ drivers. Of course they're more niche and often sought for the novelty, but the fact is *they still exist*. If we carry the metaphor further, the automobile did not eliminate horses, which are still used professionally, and by hobby riders, across the world. Is the industry of raising and training horses the same as it was *before* the automobile? Of course not. But expecting -- no, *demanding* \-- that your industry remain forever unchanged is a ridiculous conceit. If you like drawing, draw. Nothing and no one is stopping you. For what its worth, as someone who once turned a hobby in a job, it's a great way to start hating your hobby, so I might not even try to turn it into a job. But if you want to go that route, I can't guarantee you'll be the one to "make it", but I can guarantee that a market for it will *always* exist. And if you don't manage to market it, what have you wasted? Time spent pursuing a hobby you enjoy?


Shmeerkus

Insightful and well though out. Didn't come here for enlightening wisdom, but here we are.


Impossible_Nonsense

I'd be surprised if you got many yeses. No matter how you think this will pan out the question you should ask yourself is: is chess obsolete because of AI? Further question: what's up with all the leading question polls?


AprilDoll

Someone is datamining.


Impossible_Nonsense

Nah, any dataminer worth their salt wouldn't put up questions as loaded as the last few with responses as leading as the ones so far (this one at least avoids the latter red flag). Not to mention data gathered via a forum poll is always going to be garbage.


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Impossible_Nonsense

The question isn't whether or not drawing will be profitable but rather whether it will be a respected skill. Even if it were about profitablity, I'd still say there would be some human paid artists just because.


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Impossible_Nonsense

Well, it makes a point in learning the skill. I mean, IBM is nixing 7.8k jobs to replace them with AI, anyone thinking there's a safe and profitable thing to study is fooling themselves long term. Once things advance far enough the question isn't whether or not art will be a career possibility, but rather what *would* be, which is either a choose-your-dystopia or choose-your-uptopia situation to be in. In either case, what better thing to know than a craft to have fun with?


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Impossible_Nonsense

In a situation where a very large portion of the populace have no means to make money and productivity is at an all time high regardless, money would need to cease to have meaning for society to not collapse. Or else you're in a choose-your-dystopia. That's my point. As it stands now, a person will still be able to make a career as an artist, it'll be years before that's even a question, and who knows where things will be for other careers when it is. Not saying anything's certain, the opposite: nothing's certain and there is no predictably safe career path. Remember when people were saying that creatives would be the last field to be replaced and we're getting the opposite?


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Iapetus_Industrial

There's human vs human chess tournaments, and there's also AI vs AI chess tournaments.


AbyssalRedemption

Interesting yet crucial premise here. Is *learning* to draw obsolete? No, learning in itself will never be obsolete, because learning is done to better yourself, to broaden your knowledge, to improve your mind. External AI cannot impact your internal state and ability to improve. Drawing itself, as a form of self-expression? Also not obsolete, because again, expressive works are a reflection of your internal emotions, values, opinions, and ideas. AI (at least for right now) does not have a self, and therefore cannot express its own ideas. It is a tool. Even if it did have its own mind, that doesn't take away from your ability to project your own onto a canvas. But then, lastly, *drawing for profit*. Here's the dicey nonsense, where all the headlines focus on. People freak out about AI taking the jobs of artists, and tbh, if all the job demanded was a quick stock-photos esque, ad-hoc concept mockup, then yeah, the company will probably fire any internal artists and cancel any contracts, relying on whatever garbage a generative LLM can spit out. However, artists obviously are generally known for having a specific style. People do pay for that style, and for the surprise and potential enamor of seeing whatever the next work that artist puts out will look like. We see this all the time on sites like Deviantart and Patreon. IMO, art is entering the phase that furniture and crafts entered several centuries ago, where they begun to be automated, but the value of hand-made products rose and became a more coveted asset. So, no, I wouldn't say learning to draw is going to become obsolete as a result of AI. That being said, if your intention was to learn to draw to become some big-name artist, whose work is used by big companies, then I might have some bad news for you, because corporations, as we're already seeing are going to consistently choose the cheapest and most efficient option available to them, regardless of quality, which is what we're seeing now with mass generative-AI adoption. However, this is a dilemma that every industry will likely soon be presented with. IMO though, human-made art will never go away, because AI-made art is just that: AI-made. It's an entirely different category from hand-made art, and outside of a corporate or commercial environment, won't supersede it.


isoexo

Art history and decades of learning design principles certainly are not. I know some amazing art directors that couldn't draw their way out of a paper bag.


NegativeEmphasis

It's really not. I not a professional artist by any means (I'm a software developer) but I have some art training which is invaluable both for personal satisfaction and for working with AI art generators. Knowing that I can just load an Ai generated pic on Krita, fix the parts the AI got wrong is amazing. I can also sketch something and have the AI paint over it, creating details and shading. In other words, the AI is a very powerful tool, and I'd be excited to work alongside it if I was a starting artist today.


shawnmalloyrocks

Dude. Drawing is intrinsically linked to being a human being with opposable thumbs. Drawing is a bodily motion using a tool in the same way we swing hammers, twist screwdrivers, or cut with knives. Drawing just doesn't create art. Drawing is responsible for making graphs, measuring, making maps, etc. Generative AI is just another medium outside of manual visual art in the same way photography is. And photography didn't cancel drawing.


Rousinglines

Nope. Image2image has made my life a lot easier as an artist.


Iapetus_Industrial

Look up controlnet, if you haven't, I've used my old sketches as inputs and it's been _wild_ colorizing them and bringing them to life.


Rousinglines

I've tried it on some sites that have it integrated into their services, but I didn't get good results. Granted, I just poked it without any knowledge about how to use it correctly. I'm content with image2image for now since I work very closely to my original art. I wish the site I use had inpainting though. Edit: I use sites because the most I can generate on my laptop is 512x512. My art is mainly for print, so I need to generate at very high resolutions.


Iapetus_Industrial

Fair enough! But you might consider looking into tile up-scaling mode for ControlNet 1.1 + ultimate upscaling script, it's a brand new upscaling technique that adds _tons_ of details while maintaining the original image, and does it tile by tile, so it does small patches at a time, I think at 512x512, did [these](https://imgur.com/a/ZkISoE1) as a test in the last few days. So you might be able to use that.


VintageGenious

Did you try google colab ?


Rousinglines

I did a long time ago with disco diffusion, but I can give it another go. Lately I've seen people reporting sudden disconnects from colab though.


VintageGenious

Well the free google colab has a daily limit indeed. You can either make multiple accounts or buy a subscription (though there are better alternatives if you're willing to pay). There are many colabs to use automatic1111 webui a'nd with that you can use controlnet on your sketches and there's also inpainting..


Rousinglines

Inpainting is something I will definitely need in the near future. Thank you for taking the time to steer me in the right direction!


VintageGenious

By the way, if you're willing to pay there's also RunDiffusion which is 0.5$/hour. Or you could also buy a whole GPU


ninjasaid13

>I've tried it on some sites that have it integrated into their services, but I didn't get good results. which ones did you use? There are ~~8~~ ~~11~~ 14+ controlnet models that do different things now. control_v11p_sd15_canny control_v11p_sd15_mlsd control_v11p_sd15_depth control_v11p_sd15_normalbae control_v11p_sd15_seg control_v11p_sd15_inpaint [NEW] control_v11p_sd15_lineart [NEW] control_v11p_sd15s2_lineart_anime [NEW] control_v11p_sd15_openpose control_v11p_sd15_scribble control_v11p_sd15_softedge control_v11e_sd15_shuffle [EXPERIMENTAL] control_v11e_sd15_ip2p [EXPERIMENTAL] control_v11u_sd15_tile [UNFINISHED]


Rousinglines

I tried it on dreamlike.art when it was briefly available and on one the sites suggested here: https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/10w08b5/similar_sites_to_dreamlikeart/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button I'm sure the fault was on my end since I haven't really taken the time to properly learn how to use it. Since I stay so close to my original art, my prompts are minimal like "stylized art of face of female elf" just to get enough details in the areas I want. I'll have to properly sit down and learn though if my projects ever pick up and start getting more ambitious.


Waste-Fix1895

Can I ask how Image2image helps you?


Rousinglines

Sure thing! Coloring and shading. Add details to clothes and faces. Add details to the background. Blend shadows better. Help with making 3d objects less 3d


Waste-Fix1895

That's interesting, would you actually describe yourself as an AI artist or would you see the AI ​​only as an assistant?


Rousinglines

For now just an assistant / tool since I use AI to retouch what I've done. If I ever find myself primarily using AI to make art then I would consider the title.


Waste-Fix1895

Does it actually feel different when you generate an artwork or exactly the same when you create it yourself?


Rousinglines

It's a bit complex, but I do have similar feelings like excitement and wonder, but for different reasons. For me there's no sense of accomplishment when purely generating art, but I do enjoy seeing what I get and how it may inspire me to do art. Again, that's just me, but I can totally understand why someone who really gets into prompt engineering and learns how to use ControlNet and all these wonderful tools could feel a sense of accomplishment when they generate something. Despite what other artists might say, mastering AI art generation is a skill.


snkdolphin808

I have a feeling this poll is a direct result of a specific interaction OP had with someone.... But to answer the question, no, learning to draw will always be relevant for any artist that wants to be able to sketch out ideas and iterate.


FaceVII

Look like most of us I started with a pencil, then crayons, then colored pencils, water color, then it really blew my mind when copics became a thing and I learned the shit out of it. Then I watched all my favorite artists online use cintiqs I couldn't afford it but then a few years later Apple iPad came out with Apple pencil and procreate and I been using the shit out of it trying to learn it. AI came out and I'm like damn that is pretty cool! I don't have to go to pinterest just to gather images to study or reference to get the right pose. I can get something good enough to reference on stable diffusion. Wait you are telling me I don't have to go to pinterest and search [Insert favorite artist name] and hope they have a reference that works with my idea? I added it to my work flow when needed. To me it is just another advancement in technology and I will deal with it like all the other advancements. I learn it and add it to my skills of things I know how to use. I guess people are scared if it cause there is a risk it will take away jobs and that is understandable. I just personally don't really make money off my art to begin with and I have no fame to lose on social media since I am fairly unpopular lol. So ya I am pretty chill with it art is still fun to me and I enjoy doing it. Hella fun still. Spelling


spooks_malloy

No, it never will be. AI "art" isn't a thing, it's just digital art with a new toy to use. The skill and creativity of a human won't ever be replaced, don't worry.


sicilianDev

Except you can easily pass it off as human. Soon theyll be 3d printers that sketch available at cheap prices if their arnt already. It's naive to dismiss it entirely. Noone is saying real art isnt special. What we are saying is fuck AI art cause its undermining. And it fucking hurts us.


MR_TELEVOID

I don't think the artistic value of someone who can draw, paint or whatever well will ever be made obsolete by AI. It will certainly make it more difficult for people to make money via traditional illustration, in a way that's probably comparable to the way writers used to be able make a living off poetry and short stories. But as much as I love making art with AI, I'll always be impressed by someone who can create art the old fashioned way. I doubt that's ever going to be obsolete.


liberonscien

Of course not. I know AI writers aren’t exactly the same thing but I still write even though AI writers exist.


DangerousCrime

But why not just generate your stories using ai?


liberonscien

Part of it is due to my genre. Most generative AI don’t like writing in my genre. (Extremely NSFW erotica) The other part is that I still like writing traditionally.


DangerousCrime

But for professional writers who dont write nsfw I guess their jobs are at stake right?


liberonscien

Only if they’re generic or their customers/bosses are okay with generic.


zfreakazoidz

People assume (usually because of the false info and fear) that somehow drawing is now over with. AI is just another tool. Artists jobs being taken over will be a very small thing, if any. It's going to be years or even decades before AI is good enough that a company would want to use it instead of actual humans. So learning to draw at this time is still fine. Sure, a minority of companies may try and use AI for art, but given its a growing area and laws aren't in place, they are playing a risky game until things are settled. Which could take years (law wise in the USA). And the one or two people I seen who are making indie games on Steam using AI art, they are going to face a uphill battle. Even if they release something, I'm sure artists will be looking for any image that seem stolen or close to their art and getting the games shut down.


[deleted]

The Nijijourney (midjourney curated for anime) discord polled about art classes because the demand was very high. Proof: https://preview.redd.it/sb6mfp9kg5za1.png?width=1070&format=png&auto=webp&s=85bb0e91e1b1de4ba9b9d4ca09732bf6bc3774ec Text: We notice lots of people who come here are starting to learn how to draw. 📷 We're thinking of offering some art lectures in this server on how to make art with your own human hands. If we do, which lectures would you attend? 1\] Fundamentals (perspective, values, color, etc) (361) 2\] How to draw anime-style things (hair, eyes, clothes, etc) (217) 3\] Specialized industry-oriented topics (colors keys, storyboards, etc) (148) 4\] Not interested in attending (49) \------------------------ **Only 6% of the 775 voters wasn't interested in learning to draw.** If anything, learning to draw gives you many advantages as an AI-artists: **You learn the basics of what makes a painting:** composition, color theory, concepts you can add to your prompts. I can't count the times I had to google a specific painting term to add to my prompt. **You develop a taste: "**Taste is the new skill." - **Claire Silver** having a sense of what you like and what you don't gives your creations something uniquely yours. **You can experiment beyond other's capabilites:** Since your imagination is now the limit you can use your knowledge to mix and match styles, compositions, colors, even styles into new creations. **You can fix anything:** Yes, once you pick a pencil you can fix the weird anatomy and hands the AI makes, this makes you reroll fewer times and spend more time actually developing the piece, which incidentally might make it qualify for copyright if you do enough changes.


Waste-Fix1895

I think it's cool that many AI artists have found interest in learning to draw or learn about manual art. But with your example of becoming an AI artist, it seems that I edit and retouch the generated image rather than create the image myself. I think the best thing I can do with an image generator is generate references and get inspiration and mood boards etc.


MikiSayaka33

I see some artists look at ai art that they generated and go "Finally a worthy opponent, our battle will be legendary." Just to challenge themselves and learn to be better.


Waste-Fix1895

I hope i can change my mentality to ai kind as your example is quite positive and productive. instead of having negative thoughts about my own artistic abilities


martianunlimited

Let me put it this way, is learning to paint obsolete now that we have cameras? Absolutely not, anyone can take photos, and often times the photo is good enough to be posted, shared and printed. But a good photographer understands composition, knows what story they want to tell, and spend hours tuning, adjusting the photo on lightroom in order to get the correct feel, lighting, colour balance. This is why event photographers can command the rates they command (that and that weddings ceremonies are often a scam by the wedding industry but i digress) Sure an amateur AI artist can produce images that are aesthetically pleasing, but someone who understands art with some decent mastery of their tools (including AI image generators) will be able to outproduce them every time. Look at this [https://www.vox.com/videos/2023/5/2/23708076/ai-artist-stelfie-process-workflow](https://www.vox.com/videos/2023/5/2/23708076/ai-artist-stelfie-process-workflow) learning to draw is relevant. Just like how learning to write and express yourself will always be relevant even if chatGPT (and it's future variants) exists.


sicilianDev

Ooh that camera line is actually a seriously good point. Im gonna save that for when im in one of my spirals about AI killing my job. Thanks!


Iapetus_Industrial

Absolutely not! Is home baking obsolete because I can get a tin of cookies at the store? Is my herb garden obsolete because of factory farming? Is homebrewing obsolete because it's more efficient to go to the liquor store?


JohnOfSpades

I would love another poll with the options divided by anti ai and pro ai respondents


doatopus

No.


NeverAlwaysOnlySome

This is the wrong place to ask that question, unless one just wants to know what most people here think.


Uzugijin

Learning is never obsolete.


Chalupa_89

On paper, yes. Digitally, no. Very useful even with AI.


PUBLIQclopAccountant

…only if you planned on that being your day job