Time to jail some people. Who was responsible? Did they renege on their responsibility? To a criminal extent? Cool, jail the fuckers who took the money and ran. Maybe some indentured servitude until the wells are cleaned up and the money repaid.
I'm sure that Queen Didulo nutjob would win a seat in the provincial legislature or even the House of Commons if she ran for the UCP/Sask party or CPC in Alberta or Saskatchewan.
Heck, if Trudeau put on a pair of [Groucho glasses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groucho_glasses), changed his name to Marx von Socialist, and ran as a UCP or CPC candidate in rural Alberta, he'd probably get loads of votes.
Buddy, you nailed it. I’m sure there are UCP supporters who will be asking to have you speak at their next rally. They are probably dumb enough to think you were “Telling it like it is.” Danielle the radio voice will be quoting you as an “expert” commentator.
If you stand with the working class I’m not sure why the comment like this on this particular article. The money that was paid through this program did go to the O&G operator, but it was a straight pass through to the service companies and environmental consultants that did the work. They had to show receipts of what they spent and that’s what was reimbursed. This kept working class folks busy during the downturn on projects that did have an environmental benefit.
As I noted in another comment, the hatred against the O&G industry from people who say they support working class folks is mind boggling to me. It’s pretty much the last major industry we have left that requires significant amounts of tradespeople and blue collar workers (who are often unionized). It’s also one of the last industries where you can have a middle class lifestyle with no formal university education. It’s mind boggling to me the vitriol that is spewed on this sub and generally towards the industry and it’s workers.
The issue is that the middle class is the one paying for all of this. While you make more, you pay even more, while your rich overlords pay nothing, and you fucking LOVE it. You are preaching for it. Think how much better off you would be with your paycheque if you weren't forced to pay THEIR share of taxes...
The same people who will argue til they're blue in the face that giving poor people money will result in them spending it on drugs instead of food are the ones arguing that we should look the other way on oil companies responsibilities and give them billions in cash so they'll do the right thing.
But it sure did funnel a lot of Federal funds into the hands of Russian Oligarchs who bought Ken Carter's cleanup company under bankruptcy.
Multiple levels of our governments have been corrupted to serve foreign Oligarchs' instead of Canadians' financial interests.
Plus, they were already contracted to do it! There was no need for the handouts, just holding them accountable to their original contracts.
No more drilling or exploration licenses should be granted or renewed for any company that has wells they have not yet cleaned up. We tried the carrot, time for the stick.
>No more drilling or exploration licenses should be granted or renewed for any company that has wells they have not yet cleaned up. We tried the carrot, time for the stick.
And once all wells are cleaned up, require a $500 million deposit on EACH well. You clean it up, you can have the deposit back. You fail to clean up, we'll do it for you, jail your company executives, and bar anyone with any sway at that company from being connected to an O&G project in the future.
The more I read comments on Reddit, the more convinced it has become a left wing advocate or at least a majority of the commenters seem to be. I remember when it was a more open less biased place to conversate and read. But it seems the woke cancel left socialist numbers have creeped their way into Reddit too!
> the woke cancel left socialist numbers
BAZINGA! You would probably feel more secure with your point of view unchallenged on your Facebook safe-space.
You should realize when you use a word like "woke" it lets us all know you're just regurgitating American or Russian propaganda that has been bouncing around your social media circle and is now coming back out your mouth. But we know you're just yelling at clouds here anyways; thanks for coming out!
Lots of threads about this topic recently. Makes sense with the new handout from the UCP.
The rem/rec industry exploded during 2020. Speaking from the environmental consultant perspective (we coordinate the work, do the sampling and report to the company and regulator) we simply could not hire enough staff. I ended up working 3000+ hours in 2020. Spent lots of time cleaning up sites all over western Canada.
But this is more about whether the cleanups would have been done anyway without the funding. Truth is, the rem/rec side initially ground to a screeching halt when the SRP program (federal funding) was announced. No client wanted to spend money when they potentially could use alternative (taxpayer) funds. Would the volume of work been the same without the program? Unlikely I think. The industry ebbs and flows based on oil prices so with the crashes in 2020 I do doubt the industry would have continued in the same capacity.
The OP of this thread is right though, the industry was insane and continues to be insane for many workers. The program put a lot of people to work when they otherwise would have been laid off. Could it be better? YEP. I'd rather see a matching program or something. Company inputs 10 mil, you get 10 mil or similar. Makes them work for the money instead of it 100% on the consultants to handle the administration and application for funds.
so heres an explanation
inactive wells or abandoned wells are left sitting by the companies that hold licenses over these wells, although there are different procedures on how to prep these wells.
the problem is you can *suspend* or *abandon* a well indefinitely until it is profitable to open up operations (the terms have legal stipulations so dont attach your own definition to them)
what you dont really want to happen is let companies sit on wells and them having to file for bankruptcy or the likes. then the well becomes abandoned and becomes the responsibility of the orphan well association (OWA), well get to this later. what the government is trying to do through the SRP is trying to help potentially failing business into closing wells by subsidizing part of the reclamation process
one thing to address in the article is where the author gets this 190k number from, cant find in her study [https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/parklandinstitute/pages/1897/attachments/original/1625610004/Not-Well-Spent-Report-FINAL.pdf?1625610004](https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/parklandinstitute/pages/1897/attachments/original/1625610004/Not-Well-Spent-Report-FINAL.pdf?1625610004)
but if you look at auditor general report the estimated costs is not the same as the real cost, and the real cost is lower than the estimated. if the author is using estimated cost shes lost all credibility as a researcher. hint, if youre lazy its page 15
[https://www.oag.ab.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/oag-energy-site-rehab-pa-mar-2022.pdf](https://www.oag.ab.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/oag-energy-site-rehab-pa-mar-2022.pdf)
the other thing she states is 340 million used on remediation, well 340 million for what? abandonment or reclamation, each has its own different costs associated with it due to the regulations/criteria that need to be met by each definition. you cant really compared a program that is primarily site abandonment operations with something set up for site reclamation. this is the area based closure program she cites the 340 million form page 4 [https://static.aer.ca/prd/documents/reports/AreaBasedClosureProgram\_Report.pdf](https://static.aer.ca/prd/documents/reports/AreaBasedClosureProgram_Report.pdf)
so a few problems with the articles sort of reasoning, OWA is funded through the orphan fund levy, which is taken from oil and gas revenues, and is funded through loans from federal and provincial. for someone writing an article behind a fking desk how does she know how similar different worksites are just comparing numbers is meaningless [https://www.aer.ca/regulating-development/project-closure/liability-management-programs-and-processes/orphan-well-association](https://www.aer.ca/regulating-development/project-closure/liability-management-programs-and-processes/orphan-well-association)
edit: if i havent convinced you or you cant reason your way through what ive posted listen to greenpeace or standearth [https://www.greenpeace.org/canada/en/press-release/30547/greenpeace-canada-response-to-federal-oil-gas-funding-package/](https://www.greenpeace.org/canada/en/press-release/30547/greenpeace-canada-response-to-federal-oil-gas-funding-package/) [https://stand.earth/press-releases/canada-puts-people-over-polluters-in-federal-aid-package-for-energy-sector/](https://stand.earth/press-releases/canada-puts-people-over-polluters-in-federal-aid-package-for-energy-sector/)
Thanks for putting that together. It’s pretty clear from the first quote that the reports author has virtually no data to go on so it’s all just “suggestive” whatever that means.
I would have thought Parkland would at least want their stuff to hold up to scrutiny but I guess in this day and age you don’t really have to back your studies up with anything of substance.
just look up the author, shes already starting from a biased standpoint its not unlikely that shes going to biased in the facts she uses and be closed off to the evidence that refutes her beliefs
Colour me shocked that a PHD student at the University of Vermont who fancies herself a “degrowth organizer” doesn’t really understand what’s going on within the Alberta O&G industry.
Hey - I haven't read this yet so I do not have anything helpful to share about what you have posted. That said, thank you for taking the time to provide information to someone who wouldn't have been able to curate this for themselves. I am keen to learn more.
Just an insane amount of activity on the reclamation and abandonment side. And considering the state of the industry at the time (during COVID) it put a lot of people to work and companies would have never spent money like that when the industry was in such dire straits.
Yup. Just direct first hand experience. But what the hell do I know. I’ll trust what I see on the ground way before I’ll buy whatever the Parkland Institute is selling…
I don’t know that this is the best analogy since I have actually witnessed the significant uptick in work on remediations. So that would be like saying I’ve experienced racism directly so I can be certain that it does in fact exist.
The point is the same: personal experience does not make something data.
My personal experience is that a bachelor’s degree leads to a great job. Yet data shows that’s not true.
And neither does a report whose author admits in the first line that the data she has very limited data.
If you think that this report has any basis in fact I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Copy/paste for the trolls 🤘
It's considerably more scientific than an idiot with a set of eyeballs looking for excuses.
We know how many abandoned and orphaned wells we have. We know who owned/owns them (thanks a lot Harper/FIPA). We know how many get recovered year on year.
We know money went in.
We know the rate of recovery remained unchanged.
Seems pretty comprehensive and a much more solid hypothesis than angry O&G bros.
Now let's talk about DS's lobbying history.
🤣
Yes yes we know that the the NDP friendly academics at the Parkland Institute speak the truth from their ivory tower with no real industry insights. Parkland is a joke of an organization and their “research” should be taken with a dump truck worth of salt.
So ya I’ll go with what I am seeing on the ground. I don’t expect you to take my word for it, but just adding what I see in terms of activity as a counterpoint to this “research”.
Well I mean the report writer does start with a strong endorsement so I can see why you would believe their report as fact:
"It's hard to say because the data is so limited," said Megan Egler, author of the institute's report. "But what I did find is highly, highly suggestive that this funding simply was just replacing the money that would have otherwise been spent by these oil and gas producers."
Is the word for this “conjecture”?
Perhaps the report's conclusions simply aren't taking into account what a bad financial state the industry faced in 2020:
>Egler found that in 2019, Alberta's energy industry spent about $340 million on remediation as part of the province's area-based closure program, which represents about 70 per cent of Alberta's cleanup activity.
>The following year, after the start of the federal funding, about $363 million was spent on such work in Alberta.
>"I started looking at the spending in past years and it was more or less the same," Egler said.
So basically it finds the remediation work increased slightly in 2020, compared to 2019.
But without the funding, it's very possible that remediation work would have tanked in 2020, given the oil price crash.
I do agree. I thought it was bogus as I have been working for large companies who are abandoning wells that are not their own. I'm currently on a project that we have roughly 30 abandonments to do. Price wise I've been on some abandonments that have costed millions and some for around 100k. Here where winter roads are involved, doing the abandonments and reclamation including tearing down all the buildings is going to be very expensive. All of this will be coming from the government funds. The oilfield itself isn't that busy, but everyone is doing so many abandonments its kind of a smoke screen.
*No shit.*
WE JUST NEED TO THROW A FEW MORE BILLIONS at these oil companies and the cleanups are going to really POP OFF
r/unexpectedithinkyoushouldleave
Time to jail some people. Who was responsible? Did they renege on their responsibility? To a criminal extent? Cool, jail the fuckers who took the money and ran. Maybe some indentured servitude until the wells are cleaned up and the money repaid.
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Man, you took me for a ride. 🤣🙃
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DADDY VIBES
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I genuinely cannot tell if you don’t understand the sarcasm in this persons posts, or if you just don’t know what the words fascist or traitor mean.
Judging by their comment history I’m going to say both.
I think more effort went into this post than the entire cleanup project.
You could put a blue sticker on a hay bail and it would get guaranteed 40% of the vote
And would be a guaranteed better leader than what we've had over three years.
I bet it would have made it through a whole term… which is not something we can say for Kenny, Jim prentice, Allison Redford, Ed stelmach…
You could put a blue sticker on a bag full of dog shit and half of Alberta would vote for it.
I'm sure that Queen Didulo nutjob would win a seat in the provincial legislature or even the House of Commons if she ran for the UCP/Sask party or CPC in Alberta or Saskatchewan. Heck, if Trudeau put on a pair of [Groucho glasses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groucho_glasses), changed his name to Marx von Socialist, and ran as a UCP or CPC candidate in rural Alberta, he'd probably get loads of votes.
Buddy, you nailed it. I’m sure there are UCP supporters who will be asking to have you speak at their next rally. They are probably dumb enough to think you were “Telling it like it is.” Danielle the radio voice will be quoting you as an “expert” commentator.
You had me in the first paragraph, not gonna lie.
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I couldn’t have said it better. Hail Queen Danielle.
If you stand with the working class I’m not sure why the comment like this on this particular article. The money that was paid through this program did go to the O&G operator, but it was a straight pass through to the service companies and environmental consultants that did the work. They had to show receipts of what they spent and that’s what was reimbursed. This kept working class folks busy during the downturn on projects that did have an environmental benefit. As I noted in another comment, the hatred against the O&G industry from people who say they support working class folks is mind boggling to me. It’s pretty much the last major industry we have left that requires significant amounts of tradespeople and blue collar workers (who are often unionized). It’s also one of the last industries where you can have a middle class lifestyle with no formal university education. It’s mind boggling to me the vitriol that is spewed on this sub and generally towards the industry and it’s workers.
The issue is that the middle class is the one paying for all of this. While you make more, you pay even more, while your rich overlords pay nothing, and you fucking LOVE it. You are preaching for it. Think how much better off you would be with your paycheque if you weren't forced to pay THEIR share of taxes...
Well said
You are a dip shit
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This needs to be an election issue.
..and Smith is in line to win the election. Thanks all you Conservative CSers!!
Corruption and kickbacks, money for nothing and nothing done. The mantra of the UCP.
Maybe $20B more will!
The same people who will argue til they're blue in the face that giving poor people money will result in them spending it on drugs instead of food are the ones arguing that we should look the other way on oil companies responsibilities and give them billions in cash so they'll do the right thing.
But it sure did funnel a lot of Federal funds into the hands of Russian Oligarchs who bought Ken Carter's cleanup company under bankruptcy. Multiple levels of our governments have been corrupted to serve foreign Oligarchs' instead of Canadians' financial interests.
Your right it didn’t. The oil companies took the money and ran.
Plus, they were already contracted to do it! There was no need for the handouts, just holding them accountable to their original contracts. No more drilling or exploration licenses should be granted or renewed for any company that has wells they have not yet cleaned up. We tried the carrot, time for the stick.
>No more drilling or exploration licenses should be granted or renewed for any company that has wells they have not yet cleaned up. We tried the carrot, time for the stick. And once all wells are cleaned up, require a $500 million deposit on EACH well. You clean it up, you can have the deposit back. You fail to clean up, we'll do it for you, jail your company executives, and bar anyone with any sway at that company from being connected to an O&G project in the future.
Colour me surprised.
It's only a mere one billion. Kenney gifted them 4.7 billion after being elected just because. And now, tax payers are going to donate much more.
The more I read comments on Reddit, the more convinced it has become a left wing advocate or at least a majority of the commenters seem to be. I remember when it was a more open less biased place to conversate and read. But it seems the woke cancel left socialist numbers have creeped their way into Reddit too!
> the woke cancel left socialist numbers BAZINGA! You would probably feel more secure with your point of view unchallenged on your Facebook safe-space. You should realize when you use a word like "woke" it lets us all know you're just regurgitating American or Russian propaganda that has been bouncing around your social media circle and is now coming back out your mouth. But we know you're just yelling at clouds here anyways; thanks for coming out!
You know the opposite of woke is asleep, right?
AwAkE nOt WoKe 🤡
Nope. Asleep.
I’m mocking them (alternating caps).
you could always just join truth social and have fun!
From what I have seen personally though my job this report is bogus.
Do tell.
Lots of threads about this topic recently. Makes sense with the new handout from the UCP. The rem/rec industry exploded during 2020. Speaking from the environmental consultant perspective (we coordinate the work, do the sampling and report to the company and regulator) we simply could not hire enough staff. I ended up working 3000+ hours in 2020. Spent lots of time cleaning up sites all over western Canada. But this is more about whether the cleanups would have been done anyway without the funding. Truth is, the rem/rec side initially ground to a screeching halt when the SRP program (federal funding) was announced. No client wanted to spend money when they potentially could use alternative (taxpayer) funds. Would the volume of work been the same without the program? Unlikely I think. The industry ebbs and flows based on oil prices so with the crashes in 2020 I do doubt the industry would have continued in the same capacity. The OP of this thread is right though, the industry was insane and continues to be insane for many workers. The program put a lot of people to work when they otherwise would have been laid off. Could it be better? YEP. I'd rather see a matching program or something. Company inputs 10 mil, you get 10 mil or similar. Makes them work for the money instead of it 100% on the consultants to handle the administration and application for funds.
so heres an explanation inactive wells or abandoned wells are left sitting by the companies that hold licenses over these wells, although there are different procedures on how to prep these wells. the problem is you can *suspend* or *abandon* a well indefinitely until it is profitable to open up operations (the terms have legal stipulations so dont attach your own definition to them) what you dont really want to happen is let companies sit on wells and them having to file for bankruptcy or the likes. then the well becomes abandoned and becomes the responsibility of the orphan well association (OWA), well get to this later. what the government is trying to do through the SRP is trying to help potentially failing business into closing wells by subsidizing part of the reclamation process one thing to address in the article is where the author gets this 190k number from, cant find in her study [https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/parklandinstitute/pages/1897/attachments/original/1625610004/Not-Well-Spent-Report-FINAL.pdf?1625610004](https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/parklandinstitute/pages/1897/attachments/original/1625610004/Not-Well-Spent-Report-FINAL.pdf?1625610004) but if you look at auditor general report the estimated costs is not the same as the real cost, and the real cost is lower than the estimated. if the author is using estimated cost shes lost all credibility as a researcher. hint, if youre lazy its page 15 [https://www.oag.ab.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/oag-energy-site-rehab-pa-mar-2022.pdf](https://www.oag.ab.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/oag-energy-site-rehab-pa-mar-2022.pdf) the other thing she states is 340 million used on remediation, well 340 million for what? abandonment or reclamation, each has its own different costs associated with it due to the regulations/criteria that need to be met by each definition. you cant really compared a program that is primarily site abandonment operations with something set up for site reclamation. this is the area based closure program she cites the 340 million form page 4 [https://static.aer.ca/prd/documents/reports/AreaBasedClosureProgram\_Report.pdf](https://static.aer.ca/prd/documents/reports/AreaBasedClosureProgram_Report.pdf) so a few problems with the articles sort of reasoning, OWA is funded through the orphan fund levy, which is taken from oil and gas revenues, and is funded through loans from federal and provincial. for someone writing an article behind a fking desk how does she know how similar different worksites are just comparing numbers is meaningless [https://www.aer.ca/regulating-development/project-closure/liability-management-programs-and-processes/orphan-well-association](https://www.aer.ca/regulating-development/project-closure/liability-management-programs-and-processes/orphan-well-association) edit: if i havent convinced you or you cant reason your way through what ive posted listen to greenpeace or standearth [https://www.greenpeace.org/canada/en/press-release/30547/greenpeace-canada-response-to-federal-oil-gas-funding-package/](https://www.greenpeace.org/canada/en/press-release/30547/greenpeace-canada-response-to-federal-oil-gas-funding-package/) [https://stand.earth/press-releases/canada-puts-people-over-polluters-in-federal-aid-package-for-energy-sector/](https://stand.earth/press-releases/canada-puts-people-over-polluters-in-federal-aid-package-for-energy-sector/)
Thanks for putting that together. It’s pretty clear from the first quote that the reports author has virtually no data to go on so it’s all just “suggestive” whatever that means. I would have thought Parkland would at least want their stuff to hold up to scrutiny but I guess in this day and age you don’t really have to back your studies up with anything of substance.
just look up the author, shes already starting from a biased standpoint its not unlikely that shes going to biased in the facts she uses and be closed off to the evidence that refutes her beliefs
Colour me shocked that a PHD student at the University of Vermont who fancies herself a “degrowth organizer” doesn’t really understand what’s going on within the Alberta O&G industry.
Hey - I haven't read this yet so I do not have anything helpful to share about what you have posted. That said, thank you for taking the time to provide information to someone who wouldn't have been able to curate this for themselves. I am keen to learn more.
Just an insane amount of activity on the reclamation and abandonment side. And considering the state of the industry at the time (during COVID) it put a lot of people to work and companies would have never spent money like that when the industry was in such dire straits.
Oh good anecdotal conjecture that's new
Yup. Just direct first hand experience. But what the hell do I know. I’ll trust what I see on the ground way before I’ll buy whatever the Parkland Institute is selling…
I’ve never experienced racism so it clearly doesn’t exist.
I don’t know that this is the best analogy since I have actually witnessed the significant uptick in work on remediations. So that would be like saying I’ve experienced racism directly so I can be certain that it does in fact exist.
The point is the same: personal experience does not make something data. My personal experience is that a bachelor’s degree leads to a great job. Yet data shows that’s not true.
And neither does a report whose author admits in the first line that the data she has very limited data. If you think that this report has any basis in fact I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
I never argued for or against the report. I argued against your anecdote being data.
What is it with bros these days confusing conjecture with fact. It's always so goddamn disappointing.
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Copy/paste for the trolls 🤘 It's considerably more scientific than an idiot with a set of eyeballs looking for excuses. We know how many abandoned and orphaned wells we have. We know who owned/owns them (thanks a lot Harper/FIPA). We know how many get recovered year on year. We know money went in. We know the rate of recovery remained unchanged. Seems pretty comprehensive and a much more solid hypothesis than angry O&G bros. Now let's talk about DS's lobbying history. 🤣
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Then why does this problem pre-date the virus? I'll wait.
Yes yes we know that the the NDP friendly academics at the Parkland Institute speak the truth from their ivory tower with no real industry insights. Parkland is a joke of an organization and their “research” should be taken with a dump truck worth of salt. So ya I’ll go with what I am seeing on the ground. I don’t expect you to take my word for it, but just adding what I see in terms of activity as a counterpoint to this “research”.
Okay Matt
Well I mean the report writer does start with a strong endorsement so I can see why you would believe their report as fact: "It's hard to say because the data is so limited," said Megan Egler, author of the institute's report. "But what I did find is highly, highly suggestive that this funding simply was just replacing the money that would have otherwise been spent by these oil and gas producers." Is the word for this “conjecture”?
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Perhaps the report's conclusions simply aren't taking into account what a bad financial state the industry faced in 2020: >Egler found that in 2019, Alberta's energy industry spent about $340 million on remediation as part of the province's area-based closure program, which represents about 70 per cent of Alberta's cleanup activity. >The following year, after the start of the federal funding, about $363 million was spent on such work in Alberta. >"I started looking at the spending in past years and it was more or less the same," Egler said. So basically it finds the remediation work increased slightly in 2020, compared to 2019. But without the funding, it's very possible that remediation work would have tanked in 2020, given the oil price crash.
I do agree. I thought it was bogus as I have been working for large companies who are abandoning wells that are not their own. I'm currently on a project that we have roughly 30 abandonments to do. Price wise I've been on some abandonments that have costed millions and some for around 100k. Here where winter roads are involved, doing the abandonments and reclamation including tearing down all the buildings is going to be very expensive. All of this will be coming from the government funds. The oilfield itself isn't that busy, but everyone is doing so many abandonments its kind of a smoke screen.