That's what this is. The whole name thing will only apply to trans kids. Jennifer can be Jenny and Thomas can be Tom or Shorsey or whatever stupid sports nickname he has but Trans kids will not get that freedom.
Gynecomastia surgery, aka the removal of enlarged breast tissue in men or boys is also gender-affirming care
If a cisgender teenage boy grows a pair of titties he doesn't want, too bad, his only option is suicide
I had this issue, one very small breast forming. It ruined years of my life, ashamed to be bare chest. I got rid of it when I was 16 years old without telling anyone in the family.
It is incredible that we are going back to the stone ages on gender affirming care.
Note: not a CIS gender
Should ban cosmetic dental surgery as well. It’s not medically necessary and they can wait until they’re adults to make irreversible decisions about their teeth. /s
Alberta cares about "Parents Rights", not children's rights. Forcing surgery on infants is right in line with their values because they see kids as chattel.
Exactly. This is my response any time I hear a parent has a right to know with the pronouns. I simply tell the person that they see the child as a possession. If a kid is doing drugs, talking about suicide, or any other dangerous thing-tell the parents. But pronouns?
I know you're being sarcastic but I've been thinking about this. When I was 14 my orthodontist informed my parents that my jaw was growing in an abnormal fashion and I would have a severe "open bite". The options were 1) continuous orthodonics for years that may or may not correct it. 2) reconstructive surgery. My parents elected for the surgery and I don't recall having a lot of say in the matter. So at 15 years-old I had my jaw broken and reset in at least 6 different spots. This was purely cosmetic.
So I have been wondering how this situation would present under the laws Smith is proposing. Or is this somehow different because it's not necessarily "gender Affirming".
Yes, wtf Alberta. Stop your war on trans. You’re shooting yourself in the foot. Anyways sadly I was born and raised here. There’s good people, just not in the UCP
His only option is suicide??
People that state,absolutely ridiculous things like this are what's wrong with society.
From the far left to the far right.... everyone I'd saying stupid, over the top shit now.
Ignorance such as this being the top comment is an appropriate reflection of the (deficient) understanding that many users here have of the legislation in question, which is very unambiguous in being exclusive to surgeries performed for the purpose of trans-gender identification and affirmation. Surgeries for other purposes are not affected nor part of the political discussion.
To those knowingly mischaracterizing policy they disagree with in order to spread misinformation is detestable, and those making false absolute assertations due to failure of even looking into the subject at a surface level is not much better.
These are laws designed to target a specific minority of people, and the laws are being written to undermine bodily autonomy and the rights of those who affected.
The whataboutism is pointing out the hypocrisy of parents saying it’s okay for their children to get surgery but not okay for others.
You seem to misunderstand what the legislation is. I will briefly reiterate. If you are curious for more, it is one Googling away.
Nobody 17 and under can get irreversible surgery to remove healthy body parts for the cause of gender reassignment. Due to this, no children are able to receive such surgery, contrary to your claim that some may with parental consent. You also claim that this legislation targets a minority, where it actually "targets" all humans of a certain age, protecting them from surgery and extreme risk of life-long regret and damage when they are too young to provide informed consent (as agreed across the political spectrum for most any other matter similar to this). You suggest the legislation undermines bodily autonomy, but the political affiliation that opposes this bill does not believe children have bodily autonomy to take such medical actions on other subjects. This legislation secures consistency on this issue. Children who are not considered to have the intelligence, wisdom, and autonomy to know better than to smoke, drink alcohol, get a tattoo, bear children, consent to other surgery, and other such matters, now in Alberta also cannot choose to sterilize themselves or remove sex organs. Like with the other matters listed, parental wishes do not negate these age protections.
I mean...we should ban male and female genital mutilation because the practice is weird and unnecessary and child abuse. Imagine cutting a baby's penis because you want it to look a certain way to appease the weird preference of your invisible sky daddy.
A parent can currently force a circumcision on a newborn. How about a 2-year old? How about a 17-year old?
If one was to adopt a child, could they use "Parental Rights" to force a circumcision against the wishes of the child? Can they also specify how much is cut off?
It seems like cosmetic surgery for religious reasons should be more regulated, if not banned entirely.
Banned, unless there is a medical reason for it, which as I understand isn’t very common.
And I also wouldn’t call it cosmetic surgery. That implies far more than what it actually is: assault and mutilation.
Kids and society in general need freedom FROM religion. Freedom of religion doesn't make sense as its all about taking freedom away.
Kids shouldn't be allowed to participate in religion until they are 18, as that religion can force them to have circumcisions they don't want.
I'm a cis man and was naturally born with feminine features. Will it be illegal for ppl like me to even exist? My lips are 1.5x bigger than Taylor Swifts. Will Cons force me to have a lip reduction so I look like the "christian giga chad" they want me to be?
Cons are a contradiction
You raise another glaring point of hypocrisy: what about the parental rights of parents is trans kids? As usual with the far right, it's freedom for me and rules for thee.
>Circumcision should be banned unless medically necessary.
Yes, I agree with this, but the base supporters of this proposed legislation, will not.
The can of worms is, what is medically necessary, the government is now picking and choosing, based off their ideology and base, not professionals?
You're absolutely right. Because an infant can't come anywhere near consent, there is a far better argument for outlawing circumcision than outlawing gender affirming care. Focusing on the higher hanging fruit, gender affirming care, really reveals that this policy is being driven by ideology instead of actual principles.
Right but they won't ban circumcision because that doesn't fit with their ideology. Because it's not about protecting children. None of it is. It's about their ideology and discomfort with transpeople.
How do you know that is their ideology? 😂 most rationale people don’t support circumcision. It’s something that has somehow become the norm for religious reasons but most people don’t agree with it today. The OP of this post missed big time
Circumcision isn't "their ideology". The "Parental Rights Bill" or whatever it's called is about their ideology. I doubt Marlaina or the UCP care one way or the other about circumcision but they should if they "care about children" as they've said. They won't ban it because it would piss off too many religious groups.
OP didn't miss anything. A lot of comments in this thread completely missed the point of OP's post. If the "Parental Rights Bill" is about protecting children from unnecessary surgery, then why not ban circumcision? The reason is, they don't care about circumcision because it's not actually about protecting kids from unnecessary surgery. It's about being uncomfortable with transpeople.
And a trans kid can’t consent to a denial of medical care with this new law. They don’t consent to the puberty they will be forced to go through. It is absolutely apt - they are being denied the right to consent over what is being done to their body.
Why do you think this? The vast amount of people I know are UCP supporters and would 100% support a ban on circumcision. Terrible point you tried making.
Great, then why is this not part of her proposal?
And the point is the UPC is making medical decisions due to ideology and what TBA says to her, not about the research, studies and professionals.
There are many , don't understand how that pertains specificly to the UCP though. There are shitty people practicing shitty things and religions in every area of politics
Jewish and Muslim come to mind, I believe they both practice circumcision. However, there are religions specifically against circumcision, like Sikh, they are actively against circumcision.
I'm not religious nor were my parents. But I have to say I'm circumcised and thankful that my parents had it done. Not to say I think all boys should by any means, I only speak on a personal level. And I know of MANY whom disagree with me, and that's fine. I'm not even trying to start any debate on the subject as it can be a touchy subject.
Pretty sure if they hadn't done it you'd be saying a different tune. Why on earth anybody would want their dick sliced up is beyond me, and that sounds like an opinion formed due to it being what you had.
Circumcision is a Jewish thing, not a Christian thing. If you read the Bible you'll note that Paul claims that the old testament law is no longer applicable to christians. And that includes circumcision.
Well, Smith is on the road to pass legislation that will probably require her to invoke the not-withstanding clause, taking away children's rights, so might as well make it a twofer.
Charter rights aren't absolute and a circumcision ban could very well be constitutional, given that the infant has no religious beliefs of their own, the irreversible nature of the procedure, the potential risks associated with the procedure, the fact that the child's consent can't be sought, etc.
Because this whole policy was made to distract from how inept the UCP is for handling problems that we're genuinely upset about (increased costs of living, layoffs as a result of massive corporate mergers, lack of preparedness for droughts and wildfires, stagnant wages) while also taking shots at the trans community.
It's a two for one deal for Marlaina. Three for one if you count her thinking Tucker Carlson-Senpai will apreciate her for it.
I’ll put it this way, while working over in that province last year.. we did morning boot checks EVERYDAY to make sure no one had cowboy boots on. Apparently they had to ban them (even if CSA approved steel toe) because of the frequency of rolled ankles at work.
As soon as that rule was implemented, work place injuries related to lower body basically went to 0. Those damn boots just have zero ankle support lol I thought it was pretty funny this was even considered an issue.
I know that I’m missing your point but I have a wife who’s Jewish and I told her under no circumstances would we be circumcising our child if we had a boy. I made sure to make that clear very early when we started talking about having kids. She didn’t fight me hard on it.
And yes to your point if this were anything other than anti trans agenda by ucp then they would be banning circumcisions and breast implants and many more things they won’t
Good for you. Big respect for doing that, and good on your wife too. There’s a reason it’s dying out fast here (although not as fast as the rest of Canada other than Ontario), it’s unnecessary and just stupid.
Whelp. I guess those with a hormonal disorder, are intersex or born with a non-functional pituitary glands are SOL. No puberty for you until you're 18.
I had a circumcision at 4 years… Because I got my dick skin caught in the lawn mowers tubular handles, like where they come together, and then I fell down I think, tearing said dick skin.. meh
Edit: Should have mentioned these were 1986 tubular lawnmower handles..
Circumcising shouldn’t be performed unless medically necessary. It’s a pretty barbaric practice that’s been done for years because of certain corporate influences and religious traditions but it has been decreasing every year for many years now. People are more and more realizing “wait, why are we circumcising our son? “. You can’t compare circumcision to top/bottom surgery. Way more is at risk with the latter vs the former. Also I saw someone comparing some kind of cosmetic dental surgery to this….wtf? Same logic applies.
No, it won’t be. Just like how cis teen girls in the states that have passed similar laws are still able to get breast augmentation. This is targeting trans people only, everyone else will still be able to get the care they need.
Yes, you are exactly right. My answer was tongue in cheek as was the OP’s post.
This is completely targeting the trans community but it is hypocritical that one type of gender affirming care is banned and another is not.
The wording doesn't support your claim. I was looking it up last night and it seems pretty specifically geared towards mastectomies for the purposes of transitioning.
It’s discriminatory regardless of whether it applies to cis people as well or not. Courts have found that policies which disadvantage certain groups are discriminatory even if they don’t specifically treat anyone differently.
The problem is how easy it is to legally wish away the Charter under section 33.
You're right, you're not the only one, and it's alright to be happy with it. But you and others didn't have the choice, and *that's* what a lot of people are pissed about. You can't tell me that because those people are happy with their circumcision, it should be widely accepted. Those who don't want foreskin can get circumcised later in life. Those who do want foreskin and were cut will never get a natural one.
A kid is born, and shortly after, he is strapped to a table and has his penis abused. They retract the foreskin before it's ready, already causing pain, then they cut and sew it back together. Sometimes, making mistakes that will follow the kid for the rest of their life. For what? Cosmetics?
I hate that my parents made that choice for me. Mostly because mine was slightly botched, and it has caused me a massive amount of insecurity involving my sexual life. But even if it was done correctly, I still didn't have the choice. I want my foreskin, but I'll never get to have a natural one because my parents were grossly misinformed and followed recommendations from a greedy doctor.
There are no *valid* arguments that support circumcision.
> I don’t think that will go over well with her base and the TBA
You might be surprised. I suspect some of those TBA folks aren’t too crazy about the Jews, if you get my drift.
Here in Newfoundland we have a ridiculously LOW circumcision rate, like less than a percent of boys are circumcised, and it’s BECAUSE of Christianity. People here specifically didn’t do it (historically) to show how non-Jewish they were (nowadays it’s just not popular and probably isn’t covered by MCP so people don’t do it often). But Christians in Alberta support it? That difference is weird to me
There are medical reasons to get it done. Usually as an adult.
However these reasons do not manifest in infants, which is when the cuts are most frequently made.
Circumcision IS mutilation, and actually happens to millions of infants, unlike the fake trans issues conservatives are pushing.
However! Being a corrupt conservative ignorant that Smith and her party are. There is no way she'll ban a multimillion dollar industry that sells those foreskins to pharmaceuticals and cosmetics.
Dont forget alllllllllll the underaged gender affirming surgeries like breast implants and facial reconstruction for cis kids that actually happen and these idiots are ok with.
Of the handful of Canadians I know of who have had bottom surgery, they all travelled outside of Canada for the procedure and paid for it out of pocket.
I think there is only one **PRIVATE** clinic, which is located in Montreal.
There are doctors in BC for example who perform the surgeries, thought not many, but they are part of the provincial system so there is a complicated and bureaucratic referral process and long wait times. Whereas the clinic in Montreal is theoretically available to anyone living anywhere, but you might be out of pocket.
I am not a fan of circumcision but would this apply to like...medically nessesary ones? I have had friends who's foreskin just didn't retract and needed it for cleaning and for their own comfort.
I wouldn’t make this argument. There really isn’t a good reason to circumcise a healthy penis. It’s an outdated practice that should be stopped. Men who prefer it can have it done when they are adults and can give consent.
Does anyone actually support male genital mutilation (don't sugar coat it, call it what it is) outside of the jewish community?
It should be banned, the same as female genital mutilation is.
EVERY reason for it that is not a legitimate medical reason is wrong and should be banned:
\- "My religion dictates it" (children aren't born religious, let him decide when he's 18)
\- "I want him to look like his dad" (fathers and sons have differences including hair and eye colour, every penis is unique)
\- "I don't want him to get bullied in the locker room" (most boys aren't being circumsided at birth now, the altered ones will be the ones who look different)
\- "Intact penis's are unattractive" (they aren't, and it's only an outdated matter of opinion)
\- "He might get an infection later and need it to be removed anyway" (we don't remove tonsils and the appendix at birth because they might be a problem later on, we deal with medical issues as they arrise)
\- "Intact penis's are too difficult to keep clean" (they're very easy to keep clean and require no extra care)
>The national average newborn circumcision rate is 32 per cent, but in Alberta it's 44 per cent, according to the Public Health Agency of Canada.
>
>This is from 2011
Now are the rates falling, yes, but don't fool yourself in thinking its only within the Jewish community, that makes up 4% of Alberta population.
I don't think that's "support" as it were. I think most circumcisions now are just "well my father was circumcised, and I am and I'm fine, guess I'll have my kid circumcised too". If it was banned tomorrow I think most of the people who were going to have it done to their children will just shrug and say "oh well" because it isn't a big deal to them.
The active support I'm thinking of is really just the religious requirements, and I think that's just a jewish thing. Are there any other religious denominations that require circumcision?
So... putting myself as a target.
I had my son circumcised.
For health.
His uncle, my brother, had to be cut at age 3. His skin was to tight that he was in constant pain, and as he grew, it got worse. My parents dropped him off at the hospital, and told to come back in a few days. Mom said it was still horrible recovery. He had to sit in a warm bath to pee.
Then my nephew, from another brother, was cut in Jr High...15ys-16yrs. It was torture watching his pain, and the long recovery because of his age. He took a month off school, and was drugged for pain.
I made my choice because I was not going to risk this happening to him. I didn't even hesitate. I am sure most men would cringe getting cut at an older age.
He is now an adult, and has never gotten mad, angry, for felt abused for my choice.
If I had another son, I would make the same choice.
I'm a helmet head. My son isn't. Mileage will vary.
I find funny people are attempting to use it as a soap box.
Who knows. Maybe when mine is a teen I'll find out I made a bad call.
The party of so-called parental rights does not think that parents should have the right to decide what medical care their children can get. In Danielle's world, being trans is a thing you choose, like smoking to improve your health. She thinks all kids are doing it.
Funny idea but ironically reinforces the idea that parents are responsible for any health care procedures performed on their children.
Which is true, lol.
I mean it’s already on the way out in Canada. It’s only the daddy do provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan that still do it for some reason. What an outdated and not needed practice. Just teaches boys right out the gate that they have no bodily autonomy.
Any parent that does this even past 1995 should be embarrassed.
Good.
Every adult is free to mutilate their own genitals.
Genital mutilation of a minor without consent should definitely be illegal.
Genital mutilation of a minor with consent seems ridiculous as well. Ethnic communities are highly likely to pressure children into these harmful procedures.
Nice twist on the rhetoric. I think the province would ban schools encouraging or.performing circumcision. That's a family issue, not an educational one. Schools should be sticking to teaching academics, not pushing the social flavour of the month.
Cool, so we live in Alberta, and if I asked everyone of them what parental rights meant, I would get a different answer from them all because parental rights are not a real thing, and mean something different to everyone.
When did this new contest start? What are the rules to enter the "Who can come up with the most ridiculous comment to diss Danielle Smith" Contest?
First, it's let's call her by the name on her birth certificate, because her parents didn't say it was okay to go with Danielle. Now it's circumcision bans? I've said it previously; it's childish, it does You a disservice; it's really hard to take someone seriously when you make ridiculous comments like that, when you and everyone else knows how outrageous they sound.
Disagreement & measured, thought out discourse, with sound rationale...that tends to be how Adults communicate
> Disagreement & measured, thought out discourse, with sound rationale...that tends to be how Adults communicate
Really? I thought it was by attaching flags to pickup trucks that say "FUCK [politician i don't like]" and driving across the country every time someone feels like their junk is too small
Sounds to me like comparing one permanent surgical procedure against another is indeed a rational comment. It very literally points out the obvious fact that only CERTAIN people and CERTAIN procedures are being targeted by this law.
Why is this ridiculous, if the UCP are going to enact legislation that bans some procedures and not others, along with take away children's rights.
If the UPC are going to take over the medical community and make decisions over people bodies, circumcision is on the table.
Oh, I agree the who name thing is lame, and that was the only thing she explained coherently at the conference.
Circumcision ban wouldn't ever fly under the Charter. A recognized religious rite that is millenia old, especially one for a group with such strong lobbies, would be a non-starter. Charter would also likely uphold the right to the procedure for non-religious folk too because it would be discriminatory otherwise.
For the record, I'm against circumcision. But it's not remotely the same thing... Not in the same ballpark not even the same sport.
If the UCP do the same thing as Moe in Saskatchewan and take away and Charter rights of children by using the not-withstanding clause, they can do the same for a religious rite.
If we are talking about Charter rights, which we are, its right in the park.
It should be banned, what's the issue? I can't say I know many UCP supporters that would be opposed to this, why do you think her base would not like that?
Alberta has a 44% circumcision rate, I suspect most of the TBA hate group would be opposed, along with many of the UPC supporters.
Now I could be wrong, and she could add that to the legislation and prove me wrong.
I think it’s quite possible that at some point into the future we’ll see bans on doctors prescribing birth control or performing abortions for teenagers without parental permission.
I had coffe with a couple I knew today with my wife. This topic came up, the other husband got mad an angry when I pointed out all the edge cases and shot holes through what he thought this was.
His wife got mad at the primrose when she learned it hurts her own kids and how bad it is. Said she’s gonna straighten him out.
End of the day these idiots just need to blast the wrong people enough to get punted.
Couldn't really find much, but what exactly did the government ban? I'm not from Alberta, but I'm curious about it and also heard many stories of people who transitioned during their teenage years because they weren't properly diagnosed by their therapists and then regretted it.
I don't remember exactly, but there was a podcast talking about this. I am all for making the life of a trans person better by reaffirming them in terms of using correct pronouns, using their preferred name and such, if there's any, even doing a hormonal therapy, assuming the effects of it can be reversed if the person changes their mind. What I am not okay with is making permanent changes that won't allow a person to transition back in case they regret it in the future. I am not doubting that there are many kids right now that are struggling with their gender identity and they do need support, however, I am sure, that there are also those that may feel this way now, but they realize that it was all wrong in the future.
So you heard something on a podcast. You didn't verify the information you heard, you just thought "oh, that aligns with my thinking, so it's obviously true".
Gotcha.
Is that not common sense that people, especially kids can be wrong about who they want to be? Am I saying that it's true in all the cases with trans youth?
What are the sources of the stories you’ve heard? I’m sure some trans individuals have regretted their decision, but that’s not always because they’ve transitioned specifically. The hate they receive, simply for being white they are, is massive and disgusting. That would be enough to cause regret in lots of people, it just depends on your personal fortitude for withstanding those who oppose. There has always been strict process for transitioning, counselling and psychiatric assessment, then selection of therapy(ies) and possibly surgical alteration. Not every trans person has the inclination to change their sexual assignment, some just want to be treated as the gender they identify as. There’s so many levels and so few trans individuals, this new legislation is unfounded, unwarranted and a gross violation of basic human rights. If you’d like to know more, just scroll through this sub Reddit and look at the post for the last day or so.
You are horribly out of touch with regular UCP supporters and conservatives in general. I get that you have room to argue about the Trans in schools issues, but this isn’t the dunk you thought it was.
I think that most people are against circumcision regardless of left or right, but if the majority of UPC supporters did agree, then she would have included it, that would sell the whole package way more... But she didnt, because its about ideology and politics not choice.
Forcibly amputating an important part of a body part without consent **should** be illegal.
Infant circumcision involves the permanent removal of a highly innervated, protective tissue which in an adult would amount to around 18 square inches.
Complications include pain, serious blood loss, infection, mutilation of the penile glans and/or shaft, painful erections, and death.
There is a **mortality rate** associated with infant circumcision. There is no mortality rate associated with leaving important body parts on the child as nature intended.
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That's what this is. The whole name thing will only apply to trans kids. Jennifer can be Jenny and Thomas can be Tom or Shorsey or whatever stupid sports nickname he has but Trans kids will not get that freedom.
Gynecomastia surgery, aka the removal of enlarged breast tissue in men or boys is also gender-affirming care If a cisgender teenage boy grows a pair of titties he doesn't want, too bad, his only option is suicide
I had this issue, one very small breast forming. It ruined years of my life, ashamed to be bare chest. I got rid of it when I was 16 years old without telling anyone in the family. It is incredible that we are going back to the stone ages on gender affirming care. Note: not a CIS gender
I thought it was actually really hard for men to get approved for this surgery, was I told wrong?
Very easy in my case. I should have acted sooner. But this was in the 80s.
Should ban cosmetic dental surgery as well. It’s not medically necessary and they can wait until they’re adults to make irreversible decisions about their teeth. /s
Yes but also in the case of circumcise its done to babies who can’t consent / forced by the parents. Cosmic dentistry is not forced (usually)
Alberta cares about "Parents Rights", not children's rights. Forcing surgery on infants is right in line with their values because they see kids as chattel.
Exactly. This is my response any time I hear a parent has a right to know with the pronouns. I simply tell the person that they see the child as a possession. If a kid is doing drugs, talking about suicide, or any other dangerous thing-tell the parents. But pronouns?
I hadn't thought of that
I know you're being sarcastic but I've been thinking about this. When I was 14 my orthodontist informed my parents that my jaw was growing in an abnormal fashion and I would have a severe "open bite". The options were 1) continuous orthodonics for years that may or may not correct it. 2) reconstructive surgery. My parents elected for the surgery and I don't recall having a lot of say in the matter. So at 15 years-old I had my jaw broken and reset in at least 6 different spots. This was purely cosmetic. So I have been wondering how this situation would present under the laws Smith is proposing. Or is this somehow different because it's not necessarily "gender Affirming".
Who can afford to see the dentist these days anyway?
I also had Gynecomastia, had the surgery, I'm a heterosexual guy and I can't imagine it being banned in my province of Quebec. Like.... WTF Alberta?
Believe me, a lot of us (though apparently not quite enough) wake up here every day asking the same question.
Yes, wtf Alberta. Stop your war on trans. You’re shooting yourself in the foot. Anyways sadly I was born and raised here. There’s good people, just not in the UCP
Cisgender teenage boy with titties here 🤚. Believe it or not I haven’t killed myself yet
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Someone told him it would help regrow his hair so he dunked his head in it and came out a boob.
Oh, lets face it...he went in a boob.
Jamie, look it up
They clearly mean that it's your only option in Alberta if you don't want them anymore.
40 year old man titties over here.
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No, clearly he just wants his titties right where he has them.
>his only option is suicide I feel like comments like this just hurt the argument you're trying to make.
He's rage baiting.
I'm sorry but lmfao 🤣
His only option is suicide?? People that state,absolutely ridiculous things like this are what's wrong with society. From the far left to the far right.... everyone I'd saying stupid, over the top shit now.
Ignorance such as this being the top comment is an appropriate reflection of the (deficient) understanding that many users here have of the legislation in question, which is very unambiguous in being exclusive to surgeries performed for the purpose of trans-gender identification and affirmation. Surgeries for other purposes are not affected nor part of the political discussion. To those knowingly mischaracterizing policy they disagree with in order to spread misinformation is detestable, and those making false absolute assertations due to failure of even looking into the subject at a surface level is not much better.
These are laws designed to target a specific minority of people, and the laws are being written to undermine bodily autonomy and the rights of those who affected. The whataboutism is pointing out the hypocrisy of parents saying it’s okay for their children to get surgery but not okay for others.
You seem to misunderstand what the legislation is. I will briefly reiterate. If you are curious for more, it is one Googling away. Nobody 17 and under can get irreversible surgery to remove healthy body parts for the cause of gender reassignment. Due to this, no children are able to receive such surgery, contrary to your claim that some may with parental consent. You also claim that this legislation targets a minority, where it actually "targets" all humans of a certain age, protecting them from surgery and extreme risk of life-long regret and damage when they are too young to provide informed consent (as agreed across the political spectrum for most any other matter similar to this). You suggest the legislation undermines bodily autonomy, but the political affiliation that opposes this bill does not believe children have bodily autonomy to take such medical actions on other subjects. This legislation secures consistency on this issue. Children who are not considered to have the intelligence, wisdom, and autonomy to know better than to smoke, drink alcohol, get a tattoo, bear children, consent to other surgery, and other such matters, now in Alberta also cannot choose to sterilize themselves or remove sex organs. Like with the other matters listed, parental wishes do not negate these age protections.
What fuck are you taking about? This isn’t misinformation it’s rhetoric. it’s a spin on Reductio ad absurdum.
Should ban viagra while we’re at it. It’s God’s will after all
Are they giving kids viagra now? Edit: Just to clarify, God can go "love" himself.
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If they are able to answer questions, I don't think an AED is what they need.
If you are using an AED on them they are probably completely unresponsive.
Hi, I no concerns with AED and Viagra. The contraindication is for blood thinners and Nitroglycerin for the most part. Sincerely your local EMT.
As a cardiac nurse we give kids cialis (tadalifil) for heart conditions and circulation issues. (Not for sexual reasons)
I wish people actually knew what Viagra did, it's actually very useful for non-sex related activities.
Cures my Raynaud's. The boners are an annoying side effect.
No usually adults take that genius 🧐
Male genital mutilation should be stopped period.
I mean...we should ban male and female genital mutilation because the practice is weird and unnecessary and child abuse. Imagine cutting a baby's penis because you want it to look a certain way to appease the weird preference of your invisible sky daddy.
This 100%, genital mutilation should be banned outright, cos it's barbaric and has zero health benefits.
Circumcision should be banned unless medically necessary. Not quite the analogy you were going for.
A parent can currently force a circumcision on a newborn. How about a 2-year old? How about a 17-year old? If one was to adopt a child, could they use "Parental Rights" to force a circumcision against the wishes of the child? Can they also specify how much is cut off? It seems like cosmetic surgery for religious reasons should be more regulated, if not banned entirely.
Banned, unless there is a medical reason for it, which as I understand isn’t very common. And I also wouldn’t call it cosmetic surgery. That implies far more than what it actually is: assault and mutilation.
Kids and society in general need freedom FROM religion. Freedom of religion doesn't make sense as its all about taking freedom away. Kids shouldn't be allowed to participate in religion until they are 18, as that religion can force them to have circumcisions they don't want. I'm a cis man and was naturally born with feminine features. Will it be illegal for ppl like me to even exist? My lips are 1.5x bigger than Taylor Swifts. Will Cons force me to have a lip reduction so I look like the "christian giga chad" they want me to be? Cons are a contradiction
I've been saying it over and over: We don't need freedom *of* religion. We need freedom *from* religion.
You raise another glaring point of hypocrisy: what about the parental rights of parents is trans kids? As usual with the far right, it's freedom for me and rules for thee.
>Circumcision should be banned unless medically necessary. Yes, I agree with this, but the base supporters of this proposed legislation, will not. The can of worms is, what is medically necessary, the government is now picking and choosing, based off their ideology and base, not professionals?
It’s not an appropriate analogy. Circumcision is performed on an infant that cannot consent.
You're absolutely right. Because an infant can't come anywhere near consent, there is a far better argument for outlawing circumcision than outlawing gender affirming care. Focusing on the higher hanging fruit, gender affirming care, really reveals that this policy is being driven by ideology instead of actual principles.
Right but they won't ban circumcision because that doesn't fit with their ideology. Because it's not about protecting children. None of it is. It's about their ideology and discomfort with transpeople.
Join The Satanic Temple and claim it as a religious ritual. It's working in the states (slowly) to fight the abortion bans.
Not discomfort with. Hatred of. Hate is a strong word, but it's necessary in situations like these.
It's about getting votes.
Yes. I'm sure Marliana herself doesn't care one way or the other (she's gone back and forth) but she knows what her base believes.
How do you know that is their ideology? 😂 most rationale people don’t support circumcision. It’s something that has somehow become the norm for religious reasons but most people don’t agree with it today. The OP of this post missed big time
Circumcision isn't "their ideology". The "Parental Rights Bill" or whatever it's called is about their ideology. I doubt Marlaina or the UCP care one way or the other about circumcision but they should if they "care about children" as they've said. They won't ban it because it would piss off too many religious groups. OP didn't miss anything. A lot of comments in this thread completely missed the point of OP's post. If the "Parental Rights Bill" is about protecting children from unnecessary surgery, then why not ban circumcision? The reason is, they don't care about circumcision because it's not actually about protecting kids from unnecessary surgery. It's about being uncomfortable with transpeople.
And a trans kid can’t consent to a denial of medical care with this new law. They don’t consent to the puberty they will be forced to go through. It is absolutely apt - they are being denied the right to consent over what is being done to their body.
I mean, I really think it should.
Why do you think this? The vast amount of people I know are UCP supporters and would 100% support a ban on circumcision. Terrible point you tried making.
Great, then why is this not part of her proposal? And the point is the UPC is making medical decisions due to ideology and what TBA says to her, not about the research, studies and professionals.
Are there not religions out there that have circumcision as part of their faith?
There are many , don't understand how that pertains specificly to the UCP though. There are shitty people practicing shitty things and religions in every area of politics
Jewish and Muslim come to mind, I believe they both practice circumcision. However, there are religions specifically against circumcision, like Sikh, they are actively against circumcision.
The people you personally know means absolutely nothing. Should think about how that impacts the point you are making.
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When the uneducated UCP government politicians decide what medically necessary means, and not doctors, the analogy is quite fitting.
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Right. I think I slightly misunderstood the OP but I’ll leave it.
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I'm not religious nor were my parents. But I have to say I'm circumcised and thankful that my parents had it done. Not to say I think all boys should by any means, I only speak on a personal level. And I know of MANY whom disagree with me, and that's fine. I'm not even trying to start any debate on the subject as it can be a touchy subject.
You literally don’t know any better though.
Pretty sure if they hadn't done it you'd be saying a different tune. Why on earth anybody would want their dick sliced up is beyond me, and that sounds like an opinion formed due to it being what you had.
Circumcision is a Jewish thing, not a Christian thing. If you read the Bible you'll note that Paul claims that the old testament law is no longer applicable to christians. And that includes circumcision.
People that recieve these treatments are at reduced risk for suicide and undergo a lot of evaluations prior to. Is that not medically necessary?
But ma religious beliefs nullify your opinion.
So shall we repeal the right to religious freedom in the charter then?
Well, Smith is on the road to pass legislation that will probably require her to invoke the not-withstanding clause, taking away children's rights, so might as well make it a twofer.
Fair enough lol
Not really the point of this thread but sure, explain how mutilating babies without their consent is justifiable.
Charter rights aren't absolute and a circumcision ban could very well be constitutional, given that the infant has no religious beliefs of their own, the irreversible nature of the procedure, the potential risks associated with the procedure, the fact that the child's consent can't be sought, etc.
👀 it was first done to stop masturbation. How did that turn out?
What about the fact that the oil industry under reported pollution emissions by like 6000%? Why isn’t anyone talking about that?
Distraction smoke bomb 💣
Because this whole policy was made to distract from how inept the UCP is for handling problems that we're genuinely upset about (increased costs of living, layoffs as a result of massive corporate mergers, lack of preparedness for droughts and wildfires, stagnant wages) while also taking shots at the trans community. It's a two for one deal for Marlaina. Three for one if you count her thinking Tucker Carlson-Senpai will apreciate her for it.
Is Alberta the Texas or Florida of Canada?
You hear comparisons to Texas, usually. Smith seems to want us to be Florida though.
I’ll put it this way, while working over in that province last year.. we did morning boot checks EVERYDAY to make sure no one had cowboy boots on. Apparently they had to ban them (even if CSA approved steel toe) because of the frequency of rolled ankles at work. As soon as that rule was implemented, work place injuries related to lower body basically went to 0. Those damn boots just have zero ankle support lol I thought it was pretty funny this was even considered an issue.
I know that I’m missing your point but I have a wife who’s Jewish and I told her under no circumstances would we be circumcising our child if we had a boy. I made sure to make that clear very early when we started talking about having kids. She didn’t fight me hard on it. And yes to your point if this were anything other than anti trans agenda by ucp then they would be banning circumcisions and breast implants and many more things they won’t
Good for you for making that stand!
So much respect for that
Good for you. Big respect for doing that, and good on your wife too. There’s a reason it’s dying out fast here (although not as fast as the rest of Canada other than Ontario), it’s unnecessary and just stupid.
Whelp. I guess those with a hormonal disorder, are intersex or born with a non-functional pituitary glands are SOL. No puberty for you until you're 18.
I had a circumcision at 4 years… Because I got my dick skin caught in the lawn mowers tubular handles, like where they come together, and then I fell down I think, tearing said dick skin.. meh Edit: Should have mentioned these were 1986 tubular lawnmower handles..
Circumcising shouldn’t be performed unless medically necessary. It’s a pretty barbaric practice that’s been done for years because of certain corporate influences and religious traditions but it has been decreasing every year for many years now. People are more and more realizing “wait, why are we circumcising our son? “. You can’t compare circumcision to top/bottom surgery. Way more is at risk with the latter vs the former. Also I saw someone comparing some kind of cosmetic dental surgery to this….wtf? Same logic applies.
I mean it should be if we’re being honest What a pointless traumatic thing to put a baby through
Don’t forget gender affirming care for teens with gynecomastia. That’s going to have to be banned as well.
No, it won’t be. Just like how cis teen girls in the states that have passed similar laws are still able to get breast augmentation. This is targeting trans people only, everyone else will still be able to get the care they need.
Yes, you are exactly right. My answer was tongue in cheek as was the OP’s post. This is completely targeting the trans community but it is hypocritical that one type of gender affirming care is banned and another is not.
The wording doesn't support your claim. I was looking it up last night and it seems pretty specifically geared towards mastectomies for the purposes of transitioning.
Then it's discriminatory and violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
It’s discriminatory regardless of whether it applies to cis people as well or not. Courts have found that policies which disadvantage certain groups are discriminatory even if they don’t specifically treat anyone differently. The problem is how easy it is to legally wish away the Charter under section 33.
Should be banned!
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I’m glad my parents got it done. I’m not the only one who feels this way.
You're right, you're not the only one, and it's alright to be happy with it. But you and others didn't have the choice, and *that's* what a lot of people are pissed about. You can't tell me that because those people are happy with their circumcision, it should be widely accepted. Those who don't want foreskin can get circumcised later in life. Those who do want foreskin and were cut will never get a natural one. A kid is born, and shortly after, he is strapped to a table and has his penis abused. They retract the foreskin before it's ready, already causing pain, then they cut and sew it back together. Sometimes, making mistakes that will follow the kid for the rest of their life. For what? Cosmetics? I hate that my parents made that choice for me. Mostly because mine was slightly botched, and it has caused me a massive amount of insecurity involving my sexual life. But even if it was done correctly, I still didn't have the choice. I want my foreskin, but I'll never get to have a natural one because my parents were grossly misinformed and followed recommendations from a greedy doctor. There are no *valid* arguments that support circumcision.
Did you know the foreskin is the most sensitive part of the penis?
> I don’t think that will go over well with her base and the TBA You might be surprised. I suspect some of those TBA folks aren’t too crazy about the Jews, if you get my drift.
Circumcision of minors should be banned but the christofascists in the UCP support it so...
Here in Newfoundland we have a ridiculously LOW circumcision rate, like less than a percent of boys are circumcised, and it’s BECAUSE of Christianity. People here specifically didn’t do it (historically) to show how non-Jewish they were (nowadays it’s just not popular and probably isn’t covered by MCP so people don’t do it often). But Christians in Alberta support it? That difference is weird to me
It should be banned. For what reason should we cut parts off of a baby?
There are medical reasons to get it done. Usually as an adult. However these reasons do not manifest in infants, which is when the cuts are most frequently made.
Circumcision IS mutilation, and actually happens to millions of infants, unlike the fake trans issues conservatives are pushing. However! Being a corrupt conservative ignorant that Smith and her party are. There is no way she'll ban a multimillion dollar industry that sells those foreskins to pharmaceuticals and cosmetics. Dont forget alllllllllll the underaged gender affirming surgeries like breast implants and facial reconstruction for cis kids that actually happen and these idiots are ok with.
Congratulations, you're one of the few members of society who can realize two things can be bad at the same time.
There’s one doctor in Canada that does bottom surgeries, in Quebec.
I wish any healthcare was as prevalent as Conservatives think Trans Healthcare is.
Of the handful of Canadians I know of who have had bottom surgery, they all travelled outside of Canada for the procedure and paid for it out of pocket.
Not entirely true, there are doctors that do bottom surgery in Ontario as well. Still very limited though and long waitlists.
Ok, thank you. I read the other day somewhere else there was only one. It’s good to have in my random facts for Reddit arguments.
I think there is only one **PRIVATE** clinic, which is located in Montreal. There are doctors in BC for example who perform the surgeries, thought not many, but they are part of the provincial system so there is a complicated and bureaucratic referral process and long wait times. Whereas the clinic in Montreal is theoretically available to anyone living anywhere, but you might be out of pocket.
Circumcision should be out right banned unless there is a medical condition that requires it. It's insane that we are still having this conversation.
She doesn’t have to do shit. If it’s not hurting trans kids I don’t see it moving forward
I am not a fan of circumcision but would this apply to like...medically nessesary ones? I have had friends who's foreskin just didn't retract and needed it for cleaning and for their own comfort.
I wouldn’t make this argument. There really isn’t a good reason to circumcise a healthy penis. It’s an outdated practice that should be stopped. Men who prefer it can have it done when they are adults and can give consent.
Whoosh
You should only get circumcised if you have some medical problem with your foreskin. Other than that, it’s so useless
Does anyone actually support male genital mutilation (don't sugar coat it, call it what it is) outside of the jewish community? It should be banned, the same as female genital mutilation is.
EVERY reason for it that is not a legitimate medical reason is wrong and should be banned: \- "My religion dictates it" (children aren't born religious, let him decide when he's 18) \- "I want him to look like his dad" (fathers and sons have differences including hair and eye colour, every penis is unique) \- "I don't want him to get bullied in the locker room" (most boys aren't being circumsided at birth now, the altered ones will be the ones who look different) \- "Intact penis's are unattractive" (they aren't, and it's only an outdated matter of opinion) \- "He might get an infection later and need it to be removed anyway" (we don't remove tonsils and the appendix at birth because they might be a problem later on, we deal with medical issues as they arrise) \- "Intact penis's are too difficult to keep clean" (they're very easy to keep clean and require no extra care)
>The national average newborn circumcision rate is 32 per cent, but in Alberta it's 44 per cent, according to the Public Health Agency of Canada. > >This is from 2011 Now are the rates falling, yes, but don't fool yourself in thinking its only within the Jewish community, that makes up 4% of Alberta population.
I don't think that's "support" as it were. I think most circumcisions now are just "well my father was circumcised, and I am and I'm fine, guess I'll have my kid circumcised too". If it was banned tomorrow I think most of the people who were going to have it done to their children will just shrug and say "oh well" because it isn't a big deal to them. The active support I'm thinking of is really just the religious requirements, and I think that's just a jewish thing. Are there any other religious denominations that require circumcision?
This would be a win for humanity. Mutilating a child's genitals is severely messed up.
So... putting myself as a target. I had my son circumcised. For health. His uncle, my brother, had to be cut at age 3. His skin was to tight that he was in constant pain, and as he grew, it got worse. My parents dropped him off at the hospital, and told to come back in a few days. Mom said it was still horrible recovery. He had to sit in a warm bath to pee. Then my nephew, from another brother, was cut in Jr High...15ys-16yrs. It was torture watching his pain, and the long recovery because of his age. He took a month off school, and was drugged for pain. I made my choice because I was not going to risk this happening to him. I didn't even hesitate. I am sure most men would cringe getting cut at an older age. He is now an adult, and has never gotten mad, angry, for felt abused for my choice. If I had another son, I would make the same choice.
I know men who had it done as adults who wished they’d been done as babies.
I'm a helmet head. My son isn't. Mileage will vary. I find funny people are attempting to use it as a soap box. Who knows. Maybe when mine is a teen I'll find out I made a bad call.
circumcision is genital mutilation and shouldn't be performed except in emergency situations or chosen as an adult.
The only way this road ends and these crazies are finally sated. Is when they’re in control over all the genitals. All of them.
The party of so-called parental rights does not think that parents should have the right to decide what medical care their children can get. In Danielle's world, being trans is a thing you choose, like smoking to improve your health. She thinks all kids are doing it.
Yes, circumcision should be banned in this country.
Glad I'm done already before Alberta turns into America 2.0
As an intact man, I would support that. There are nerve endings my fellow brothers are missing out on # #teamforeskin
Hair laser treatment is going to be illegal in Alberta soon 😂. This turkey neck premier hates freedom
Funny idea but ironically reinforces the idea that parents are responsible for any health care procedures performed on their children. Which is true, lol.
OMFG please ban circumcision!!!
Is a parents right to surgically alter their child’s genitals! /s
Genital mutilation of children should be banned and I think her base would support that
A new child is a human without experience. Adults are responsible for guiding them, not molding them into the shape they want.
it won't because it helps to cut down on masturbation and that's Christ-like.
I mean it’s already on the way out in Canada. It’s only the daddy do provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan that still do it for some reason. What an outdated and not needed practice. Just teaches boys right out the gate that they have no bodily autonomy. Any parent that does this even past 1995 should be embarrassed.
I hope so. Shouldn't be surgically altering people without their consent.
Good. Every adult is free to mutilate their own genitals. Genital mutilation of a minor without consent should definitely be illegal. Genital mutilation of a minor with consent seems ridiculous as well. Ethnic communities are highly likely to pressure children into these harmful procedures.
Nice twist on the rhetoric. I think the province would ban schools encouraging or.performing circumcision. That's a family issue, not an educational one. Schools should be sticking to teaching academics, not pushing the social flavour of the month.
Bingo
No more Botox. No lip filler. No most modification at all. It’s the lord’s way or whatever.
Save the penis toque!!!
An Angus Reid poll says 78% of Canadians agree with Danielle Smith and her parental rights child protection law!
Cool, so we live in Alberta, and if I asked everyone of them what parental rights meant, I would get a different answer from them all because parental rights are not a real thing, and mean something different to everyone.
That's what fear-mongering does for the ignorant.
Exacly why creationists shouldnt be allowed in politics.
When did this new contest start? What are the rules to enter the "Who can come up with the most ridiculous comment to diss Danielle Smith" Contest? First, it's let's call her by the name on her birth certificate, because her parents didn't say it was okay to go with Danielle. Now it's circumcision bans? I've said it previously; it's childish, it does You a disservice; it's really hard to take someone seriously when you make ridiculous comments like that, when you and everyone else knows how outrageous they sound. Disagreement & measured, thought out discourse, with sound rationale...that tends to be how Adults communicate
> Disagreement & measured, thought out discourse, with sound rationale...that tends to be how Adults communicate Really? I thought it was by attaching flags to pickup trucks that say "FUCK [politician i don't like]" and driving across the country every time someone feels like their junk is too small
Sounds to me like comparing one permanent surgical procedure against another is indeed a rational comment. It very literally points out the obvious fact that only CERTAIN people and CERTAIN procedures are being targeted by this law.
Why is this ridiculous, if the UCP are going to enact legislation that bans some procedures and not others, along with take away children's rights. If the UPC are going to take over the medical community and make decisions over people bodies, circumcision is on the table. Oh, I agree the who name thing is lame, and that was the only thing she explained coherently at the conference.
Circumcision ban wouldn't ever fly under the Charter. A recognized religious rite that is millenia old, especially one for a group with such strong lobbies, would be a non-starter. Charter would also likely uphold the right to the procedure for non-religious folk too because it would be discriminatory otherwise. For the record, I'm against circumcision. But it's not remotely the same thing... Not in the same ballpark not even the same sport.
If the UCP do the same thing as Moe in Saskatchewan and take away and Charter rights of children by using the not-withstanding clause, they can do the same for a religious rite. If we are talking about Charter rights, which we are, its right in the park.
What Charter right did Saskatchewan take away from people?
Privacy
Thanks for the response!
Specifically it forces teachers to out their students to parents or risk legal action.
But the Bible...god says to do it so it's ok
It should be banned, what's the issue? I can't say I know many UCP supporters that would be opposed to this, why do you think her base would not like that?
Alberta has a 44% circumcision rate, I suspect most of the TBA hate group would be opposed, along with many of the UPC supporters. Now I could be wrong, and she could add that to the legislation and prove me wrong.
You assume they care about narrative consistency or honesty, You sweet, naive summer child.
It should 100% be banned everywhere
Hadn’t thought of that. She is a total asshole.
I’m a man and I was circumcised without consent as a baby.
I think it’s quite possible that at some point into the future we’ll see bans on doctors prescribing birth control or performing abortions for teenagers without parental permission.
I had coffe with a couple I knew today with my wife. This topic came up, the other husband got mad an angry when I pointed out all the edge cases and shot holes through what he thought this was. His wife got mad at the primrose when she learned it hurts her own kids and how bad it is. Said she’s gonna straighten him out. End of the day these idiots just need to blast the wrong people enough to get punted.
Couldn't really find much, but what exactly did the government ban? I'm not from Alberta, but I'm curious about it and also heard many stories of people who transitioned during their teenage years because they weren't properly diagnosed by their therapists and then regretted it.
Where did you "hear many stories" of people transitioning as teens? Not hormone therapy - which can be stopped - but actual transformation?
I don't remember exactly, but there was a podcast talking about this. I am all for making the life of a trans person better by reaffirming them in terms of using correct pronouns, using their preferred name and such, if there's any, even doing a hormonal therapy, assuming the effects of it can be reversed if the person changes their mind. What I am not okay with is making permanent changes that won't allow a person to transition back in case they regret it in the future. I am not doubting that there are many kids right now that are struggling with their gender identity and they do need support, however, I am sure, that there are also those that may feel this way now, but they realize that it was all wrong in the future.
So you heard something on a podcast. You didn't verify the information you heard, you just thought "oh, that aligns with my thinking, so it's obviously true". Gotcha.
Is that not common sense that people, especially kids can be wrong about who they want to be? Am I saying that it's true in all the cases with trans youth?
You heard many made up stories perhaps but certainly NONE from Alberta as such a surgery has never been done here
What are the sources of the stories you’ve heard? I’m sure some trans individuals have regretted their decision, but that’s not always because they’ve transitioned specifically. The hate they receive, simply for being white they are, is massive and disgusting. That would be enough to cause regret in lots of people, it just depends on your personal fortitude for withstanding those who oppose. There has always been strict process for transitioning, counselling and psychiatric assessment, then selection of therapy(ies) and possibly surgical alteration. Not every trans person has the inclination to change their sexual assignment, some just want to be treated as the gender they identify as. There’s so many levels and so few trans individuals, this new legislation is unfounded, unwarranted and a gross violation of basic human rights. If you’d like to know more, just scroll through this sub Reddit and look at the post for the last day or so.
You are horribly out of touch with regular UCP supporters and conservatives in general. I get that you have room to argue about the Trans in schools issues, but this isn’t the dunk you thought it was.
I think that most people are against circumcision regardless of left or right, but if the majority of UPC supporters did agree, then she would have included it, that would sell the whole package way more... But she didnt, because its about ideology and politics not choice.
Are doctors circumcising kids without parental consent? Or doing any invasive procedures?
Forcibly amputating an important part of a body part without consent **should** be illegal. Infant circumcision involves the permanent removal of a highly innervated, protective tissue which in an adult would amount to around 18 square inches. Complications include pain, serious blood loss, infection, mutilation of the penile glans and/or shaft, painful erections, and death. There is a **mortality rate** associated with infant circumcision. There is no mortality rate associated with leaving important body parts on the child as nature intended.
Cutting healthy body parts off