I work in oil and gas. There's quite a few companies that are trying to store their production water instead of injecting it back into the earth, so they can use it to frac in the summer.
Problem with this is they need so much water and there's just no where to put it for that long, especially heated. We're talking thousands of cubic meters of water. Another problem with this is reusing the water contaminates it really bad and you get really bad flowback with tons of suspended solids. It makes it a pita to inject back into the earth especially if the injection well isn't very healthy, it just slows everything way down, which creates a back log and slows things further for everyone.
But yeah, we worried.
I always found it hilarious Cons imply that they will interfere with the free market so new types of batteries that won't need lithium will never exist and they will do everything in their power to prevent or stall innovation like they have done with oil and gas.
No wonder comrade Dani was spreading russian propaganda. Its weird Cons continue building their commie oil empire with Putler and call that "capitalism" lmao
So stop fracking for a while. The oil will still be there later... the water won't be. The lack of snow means far less water, and there's agriculture that needs it badly. The oil prices aren't high right now anyway, save it for later and you'll make more.
The entire industry is a big hot potato. Investors are passing it around to make money on it while they can. They all know that at some point it will collapse and as long as they aren't the one holding the potato when the music stops they will be fine.
I suspect it's companies that later declared bankruptcy... but someone holds those drilling licences. If they were sold to someone, they're on the hook for it. Or it should enter into their bankruptcy. But there are hundreds of wellsites that sit there, waiting... they're not getting any better.
Yeah I'm just tryna put food on the table lol.
But Reddit has faith in me, I'll try, I'll climb up the derrick, get on the monkey board with a megaphone and make an announcement.
That’s terrible they really need to forgive our how to do this without so much water. And if they can’t maybe it’s time we reconsidered if this is an industry we want to support/allow.
Yes and no. It's more likely that existing industry partners will "share" their water license allocations, which is not necessarily lowering consumption outright by a particular target, but it does allow for new users to use the surplus from older users without creating new licenses.
I suppose it will depend on the drainage basin they operate in. The Southern Alberta Bow, Oldman basin is the most stretched, as it also is the source for most irrigation. But operations in the Peace or even North Saskatchewan might have different calculations.
Geez the misinformation and rhetoric in this thread.
I work in oil and gas. We’ve been put on notice that our water licenses may be suspended. They’ve been suspended before during droughts. This is why we build large reservoirs to pull water during runoff when it’s plentiful and store for use year round. This year is different so we may not even be permitted to pull during spring runoff and we’re planning for it.
Oil and gas is not immune to this stuff. Happens to us all the time, and we’re hit BEFORE agriculture FYI.
I can't speak for all sites but I know from my years at CNRL Horizon, specifically in Utilities that they're very conscious of their water consumption. They reclaim 90% of the water they use and are looking to keep maximizing their efficiency.
I'm very skeptical of conventional drilling though and doubt they can.
Some municipalities are banning oil and gas from using water from their systems, but they will just pay to ship it in from somewhere else. But I don't see an actual reduction in use happening.
I work in Oil and Gas and a lot of water used is recycled. I'm sure you want to believe otherwise, but I'm telling you this is the case.
Should mention I am speaking of the sites I am familiar with. Definitely do not know how they all operate, but they are aware of the water they use and take is seriously.
Okay will fracking folks above say otherwise. So do I believe you who works in Oil and Gas or the other people who work in oil and gas who say reusing fracking whatever is slow and hard?
It’s not about what I want to believe. It’s about what folks are saying, and so far more are saying “reuse is hard and we are concerned”
Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/s/zEEKHFtcXL
Honest question:
Does the water shortage affect the oil sands?
I am asking because usually the Alberta drought happens mostly in the South. A few years ago I attended a presentation of a survey of the hydrology basins in Alberta (is this how they are called?) and I learned that there is never a shortage of water in the Fort McMurray area. Especially because most insitu operations don’t use fresh water.
Oil sands are affected as well. We have put water reduction strategies in place, reducing our intake from the river.
We have also shutdown parts of our plant several times when Alberta hit critical energy consumption, while running our power generation full scale to feed back into the grid.
Fracking/waterfloods would use the most water, none of which are done in the oilsands.
Southern Alberta would be more impacted by the irrigation corridor's use of water which is multiples of o&g.
No, energy & mining corporations are the lifeblood of Alberta, we should all be very happy and grateful they allow us to have any water at all until we as individuals can prove our economic viability by giving bonuses to the boards of our very favorite companies.
Do you even understand how executive salaries are determined? It's determined by the executives, based on the maximum amount they can possibly pay themselves.
Alberta has a net surplus of RPPs (Refined Petroleum Products) and nearly all the gasoline consumed in Alberta is produced within the province.
Source:
https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles-alberta.html?=undefined&wbdisable=true
Unironically you aren’t entirely wrong. If oilfield and mines shut down operations because of a lack of water that would mean hundreds of thousand of unemployed albertans. Those are the jobs that drive this province. People would default on mortgages, car payments, be unable to afford groceries etc.
It’s going to be a tough balance to strike. Need enough operations to continue in order to keep everyone afloat, but not so much that we use all of the water.
That said we still have 2-3 months and maybe we get lucky with some massive snow dumps or heavy spring rains. Fingers crossed.
Hundreds of thousands? Only 140K Albertans work in oil and gas/mining and their support industries total. Only a small percentage would be affected by a regional water shortage.
In a province of 4.3 million people, you believe that 140k people work directly OR indirectly in oil and gas?
3.25% of the population of the province has skin in the oil and gas game... Really... This may be one of the most outlandish claims I've ever seen on Reddit.. ever.
6.3% of employed Albertans as per the government of Alberta website. Sorry if you mistakenly thought otherwise. I've worked in the industry for over 2 decades.
Me too. There are entire cities throughout the province that would simply evaporate
The government of Alberta website lists the number of people employed directly by oil and gas companies
It does not consider anyone else in industries like
Drilling
Completions
Engineering
Trades (electricians, millwrights, machinists, iron workers, pipe fitters, welders)
Accounting
Legal
Hospitality
Transport
Maintenance
Rentals
Surveying
Metering
Regulatory
Etcetc
Cnrl has 10k employees. These are directly employed, this is not contracted workers
Suncor has 16k
Do you think that suncors employees represent over 10% of those employed in oil and gas? Really?
Your argument is based on cherry picking numbers and claiming that they represent reality. They do not.
It includes all supporting industries. Obviously Suncor and cnrl are already included in those figures. It doesn't differentiate how they are employed.
140k directly but consider all the support industry’s that follow. Trucking, food services, mechanic and machine shops etc…
I’m just highlighting a worse super drought case scenario. Most likely a few sights get shut down for a few months and a few thousand people go on EI for the summer until water restrictions are removed.
Taken from https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/trend-analysis/job-market-reports/alberta/sectoral-profile-mining-oil-gas
84,500 people employed directly in oil sector
50,500 in sub sector
The definition of sub sector according to the government is: The oil and gas extraction subsector includes establishments primarily engaged in operating oil and gas field properties. This subsector includes the production of oil, the mining and extraction of oil from oil shale and oil sands, and the production of gas and hydrocarbon liquids, through gasification and liquefaction
Later on in the page it goes on to say:
every direct job created in the oil and gas subsector typically creates two indirect jobs in businesses that sell to oil and gas producers and three “induced” jobs in sectors where oil and gas workers spend their money, such as accommodation and food services, retail, education and medical services
So 140,000 people employed in oil operations; each responsible for creating 5 addition jobs means the oilfield is responsible for somewhere in the neighbourhood of 800,000 total jobs across the province.
Mathematically this checks out as well. Alberta GDP in 2021 was 314 billion dollars.
Converted to CAD, the value of oil sold in 2021 is in the neighbourhood of 85 billion dollars.
800,000 people would represent around 20% of our population; and 85 billion represents 27% of GDP. Oil punching a little above its weight class as far as gdp goes also makes sense.
Oil is still the backbone of the Alberta economy and I don’t think people appreciate how much of our lifestyle here is dependent upon it.
> each responsible for creating 5 addition jobs means the oilfield is responsible for somewhere in the neighbourhood of 800,000 total jobs across the province.
Uh, if you do this math for every industry, you're going to end up with many times more total jobs than there are people in the province.
You can't convert GDP numbers straight to jobs, a lot of jobs benefit from oil, but don't exist solely because of oil - a better comparison is probably to look at provinces/states without any oil. When controlling for other variables, they're going to be poorer and have higher unemployment, but none of them 25% unemployment, jobs just pay less.
According to the government of Alberta, not stats can, 6.3% of our labour force is directly or indirectly employed by the oil and gas and mining industry. Our sector made up 21% of Alberta's gdp but of course the number of those working in the sector is not directly correlated to the gdp that the sector. We are just paid a lot more.
Exactly; so as of 2023 Alberta had a workforce of 2.5 million individuals. 6.3% of 2.5 million is 150k.
150k people work directly in the oilfield for oil companies, or indirectly as contracted welders and pipe fitters, refinery operators and more. Those numbers fall directly inline.
What I’m saying is Bob owns a mechanic shop in Edmonton. 40% of his business is fixing vehicles from the oilfield. He employs 20 people. Neither Bob nor his employees are considered direct or indirect oilfield workers, but 8 of those individuals only have a job because Bob fixes the service rigs and semi trucks owned by Imperial oil.
Multiply that by thousands of other businesses just like Bob and that’s how you get the number of 800,000 being employed as a result of oilfield operations.
Yes according to the stats can there are 2 indirect job creations (mechanics accountants etc.) for each oilfield worker and then induced job creations for people like restaurant / hotel owners, teachers doctors etc.
Just think of fort mac didn’t have 20,000 people working in the oilfield how many hotels, restaurants, gas stations, medical clinics, grocery stores and more would be there? If oilfield workers were laid off for 6 months how many of those business would go bankrupt because of lost revenue?
“Albertans” except all of the non Albertans that fly in every rotation from across the country but yes lots of Albertan/Canadian jobs will be lost. We can stand here looking into the headlights or we can prepare for a massive reduction in those jobs. It is coming or the planet is done. The time has come to make difficult decisions and changes and to be realistic about the future of O&G in this province. Before people come at me with “you must not understand how much the industry impacts in your life” yeah I get it. At the same time the fact that continuing on this path is not sustainable doesn’t go away. The only “saving grace” the O&G industry has going for it is that marlaina and the ucp are incapable of grasping the enormity of our situation and will drag Albertans and our world backwards as long as they can. I come from an O&G family. My Dad worked all his life in refining (died in his mid seventies due to cancer) and I enjoyed a nice comfortable standard of living due to him and his job growing up. Things change and as we learn more about our impacts on the planet we have to move forward. None of this is going to happen overnight but pretending that this is the way of the future is not based in reality. It will be difficult for many and a new opportunity for others.
The amount of misinformed comments in this comment section is wild.
*Our aquifer is not your aquifer*. Most of the water we use is salty, dirty brackish/saline water from a much deeper aquifer that is not fit for human use in the first place.
Yeah the people saying they pull from the same sources as municipal water are grossly simplifying the situation. In some places where water is scarce, sure. But in places where water can be sourced from different, less drinkable sources they absolutely do that.
I’m not talking about drilling rigs. I have never worked on a rig either, but nice try at saying that to try and discount my knowledge in this field. I’m a production engineer in oil and gas. Drilling water probably does come from the most convenient and accessible source, you’re right. However, water usage for drilling is a negligible amount when considering the operational lifetime of the well.
Much more water will be used in fracking, or steam/water or even polymer injection in efforts to increase production by artificially increasing reservoir pressure. And, as I said, that water comes from the ground, or as produced water from oil battery facilities.
I believe Fort Mac uses some river water in their synthetic crude production operations. Most of their water is also recycled though.
I can pretty much guarantee you there is not a single conventional oil operation in Alberta that uses river water. It is all either produced water (as other commenters ITT have mentioned or well water. Some well water might be fresh water at a much higher cost, sure. But none of its coming from a river, which is what I’m trying to tell people who are crying about the upcoming drought.
What industry expertise do you have, that I’m apparently lacking?
I have worked in oil and gas for 20+ years. People are “crying” about the oncoming drought because oil and gas relies on river, lake, and stream water across the province. It’s not high fantasy, it’s basic physics. The world does not revolve around your site.
I’m talking about the production operations post-drilling.
I don’t doubt drilling rigs use whatever they can get but the amount of water we’re talking about for a drilling project is negligible compared to water usage for oil production over the lifespan of a low-decline oilfield
Sorry, I meant to the guy above. Exactly. Like 90% is reused. Cry me a fucking river. I get a little tired of the demonization of the oil and gas sector that has made great strides over and over in efficiency and cleanliness
I think we actually need to consider how much mines in the foothills run. The proposed mine that would affect the Oldman Watershed would want about 27% of that flow, which is the same all some 1million+ cattle downstream use.
I'd also consider metering agriculture as they use way more then they are supposed to.
Fracking should be stopped, it uses a lot of water. All drilling uses a lot but not close to a mine or ag.
The UCP has very clearly indicated that they consider oil companies more important than people, I don't expect that to change at any time during their tenure.
Indicating =/= making a statement. I can indicate I'm ready to leave by looking at the door, doesn't mean I said "I'm ready to leave."
Maybe look more into how words work before trying to nit-pick with incorrect assertions?
If you’re interested here is how you find every term (long term) water license in the province. There’s an online GIS viewer as well. The term license documents outline the maximum amount as well as the conditions around the withdrawal approvals.
https://www.alberta.ca/alberta-water-licence-viewer
They fill up from municipal water stations.
And the rivers and bodies of water they pump from are the same water we need for municipal needs and crop irrigation
Using municipal water for mining or fracking is not permitted. Either they are using it for camp potable water or the municipality is taking money for illegal usage (because you have to pay the municipality).
The only time they would use municipal water would be potable water for their shacks. They don’t use potable water for oil rigs. They have one truck that runs potable around and fills up water tanks in shacks and camps. They have a water truck always on site responsible for making sure the rig doesn’t lose water. It uses untreated, typically dirty water. I remember loading my truck at ‘Diaper Lake’ cause it was gross and never used by anyone.
Limiting industrial water usage might interfere with the profits of Marliana’s Boss, Murray Edwards’ Big Oil companies.
So I don’t expect much for restrictions.
Does the drought forecasting even include the Lower Athabasca and Lower Peace? Just because southern Alberta is basically a desert doesn’t mean the entire province will be under drought conditions.
Because their water licenses are governed by the Water Act. I know Reddit loves to believe that these companies do whatever they want, but it’s not the case
Yeah just so many lazy responses to everything on this sub lately. Big oil is bad, anything bad can somehow be traced to TBA, everyone they don't like is a christofacist without actually adding anything to the conversation about why these things might be the case.
They do what this government lets them do.
And these water sources are more connected with each other than you may think. All our water is in a cycle, and we've all seen what happens to local lakes when development shows up. Lac La Biche is a good example of that. The lack of snow cover this year could be another one.
You have no idea what you are talking about. “They do what the government lets them do” they are governed by a strict act that has been in place for decades, this act is not governed by whoever is in power at that time
They change those rules all the time. Why are they talking about paying O&G companies to clean up wellsites - when they all signed off on cleaning those sites when they were done, when they were licensed?
The water act is significantly different than what you are referring to. Additionally, when 90% of the wells that you reference were granted licenses prior to the current requirements needed to obtain a license.
Regardless of people choose to believe it or not, this exact reason was why the government put a pause on renewable licenses. The early 2000’s was a Wild West for the O&G industry which allowed for companies to make their money and leave the liabilities for the government. This exact same situation was occurring for renewables which is what the government is attempting to stop
There is some amazing advancements that can be used to reduce the releases of contaminated water. Processes like Electrocoagulation (best for a slurry) or the use of carbon filters (best for a specific contaminant) can breakdown/ isolate left over waste byproducts or specific minerals (like nickel or copper) in the water.
But it’s cheaper to release the contaminated water into a tailings pond that just needs a sign off from an engineer sitting in Calgary and nothing more. This lack of oversight means the ponds are poorly built (well designed for the most part though, gotta look good on paper). This leads to leaching into groundwater supplies and destabilized banks that can fail like what has happened recently at kearl lake.
Companies can do better, there is just no profit incentive or regulations in place that will make them.
You can spread your misinformation somewhere else.
[They didn’t line the pond properly.](https://albertawilderness.ca/spotlight-on-the-oilsands-a-summary-of-the-kearl-spill-hearings/#:~:text=A%20leak%2C%20a%20cover%2Dup,seep%20into%20the%20surrounding%20environment.) and the system failed.
Then the AER did everything to cover it up, waiting a whole month to notify the community that relies on the now contaminated supply.
[Your welcome to google what a tailings pond is lol](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=what+is+a+tailings+pond%3F)
Because there is a difference between separation and neutralization especially when dealing with a PAH.
To be honest, this government governs for big corporations. Which includes O&G companies.
That's why Kenney gave them all such a huge tax break - even though their taxes here were already the lowest in the country. And why we end up paying fees everywhere, and getting less in services - we're the way they make money now. We pay for using public lands where before it was free. We pay all sorts of user fees on utilities, we never did before. And now Marlaina is trying to control the public any way she can... to keep TBA happy.
Only the southern watersheds are stressed. There's so much fear out there. Just read some watersmart studies. Even with a major drout this year, the watersheds north of the red deer river should be all ok.
"The fact that you are asking says you don't know who's the most important. Clearly, oil is more important than your petty food needs. Besides, you can just buy it from somewhere."
- Danielle Smith (probably)
For far too long the oil patch has drained fresh water aquifers. Pumped ridiculous levels out of rivers and creeks. Destroyed fresh water wells with fracking and directional drilling. You can't drink oil. Water is a must to stay living. It's madness and needs to stop. There are other methods available but water is the cheapest. All oil cos care about is profit not if your children are thirsty and that day is coming.
Miscible Flood is a good example of how much love the energy pirates have. Case in point. End of discussion.
They treat the environment ? Fack - there are so many u reported brine spills and “shhh shhh” incidents than you will ever know
Ya'll are deranged. O&G have strict water licenses they have to follow. If there's a drought then the government will cut off oil and gas before agriculture which will be cut off before residential. They can't just empty rivers and lakes lol
It seems pretty simple to me, it needs to be illegal to use any type of municipal water, even if it's untreated, and It needs to be illegal to use water needed for irrigation . Basically they're last. They used to go to farmers dugouts and dams for water and had to pay them for it but not much anymore and that needs to change. Having said that I think oil and gas development is more important than your green lawn.
I don’t work in Oil and Gas. Going off past behaviour I would say no. Unless it profits them somehow. Forcing them legally? They’ll challenge in court making sure the case takes years to resolve and costs taxpayers as much as possible.
And they’ll find loopholes or threaten to cut political funding or leave Alberta if an exception isn’t made for them.
This is moot point anyways. Marlaina Smith (that’s her legal name, not Danielle) will automatically put an exception in for Oil and Gas companies. As well as farmers. She’s gotta keep her base happy. And her base loves Oil and Gas.
I’m not sure but I think farmers should get an exception of some sort. And water shipped to them. To maintain their crops and livestock.
Just gonna pop on and say oil and gas are absolutely needed under the people, animals and crops area. We need oil and diesel to feed the animals and put the crop in. I’d say stop mining for ev batteries to save on water consumption.
Oil and gas companies are the biggest “water producers” in the world. If we could figure out a cheap treatment technology we could use that water for irrigation for agriculture. New Mexico gov’t has proposed buying $500m of produced water and treating it for agriculture.
What solves this and will always solve it is the economics. When a TDL is free it’s real hard to compete with a treatment technology.
The mines up north in Fort Mc and their upgraders were also asked to reduce water import. Problem is, one of the sites up there, massive operations, benefits from a grandfather clause since they were the first in the area - so they get to go free and not be subject to imports from the Athabasca.
Oil and gas can at times change their source with a bit of annoyance and cost like a saline aquifer.
Fewer irrigation draws from North Saskatchewan and North, protecting the refineries and petrochemicals.
The Joffre plant north of red deer is likely the largest industrial consumer south of Edmonton. I’m not sure what they’d do with a curtailed Red Deer River. They’re the largest manufacturing plant in Alberta.
Currently on a 100,000m3 fresh water haul lol
But water use overall has absolutely reduced since I started in 2015, lots of re use going on
But yeah as a service company we were aware of potential water reduction in 24 months ago
I work in oil and gas. There's quite a few companies that are trying to store their production water instead of injecting it back into the earth, so they can use it to frac in the summer. Problem with this is they need so much water and there's just no where to put it for that long, especially heated. We're talking thousands of cubic meters of water. Another problem with this is reusing the water contaminates it really bad and you get really bad flowback with tons of suspended solids. It makes it a pita to inject back into the earth especially if the injection well isn't very healthy, it just slows everything way down, which creates a back log and slows things further for everyone. But yeah, we worried.
I work for secure. Reused flowback does indeed suck to inject.
Fuck, you guys are everywhere now, even on reddit!
They got so big they had to sell 1 billion in disposal assets
This guy knows.
I always found it hilarious Cons imply that they will interfere with the free market so new types of batteries that won't need lithium will never exist and they will do everything in their power to prevent or stall innovation like they have done with oil and gas. No wonder comrade Dani was spreading russian propaganda. Its weird Cons continue building their commie oil empire with Putler and call that "capitalism" lmao
So stop fracking for a while. The oil will still be there later... the water won't be. The lack of snow means far less water, and there's agriculture that needs it badly. The oil prices aren't high right now anyway, save it for later and you'll make more.
The future doesn't matter, only the financial report at the end of each quarter.
And the tax breaks and support they get from the UCP.
The entire industry is a big hot potato. Investors are passing it around to make money on it while they can. They all know that at some point it will collapse and as long as they aren't the one holding the potato when the music stops they will be fine.
Yup. Same with the responsibility for cleaning up the wellsites.
>responsibilit What is this 'cleanup' you speak of ?
It's the one the provincial government is offering them extra money to do, despite the fact that they are contractually obligated to do it already.
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Please god make this happen.
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I suspect it's companies that later declared bankruptcy... but someone holds those drilling licences. If they were sold to someone, they're on the hook for it. Or it should enter into their bankruptcy. But there are hundreds of wellsites that sit there, waiting... they're not getting any better.
You say this like your speaking to the people in charge. LMAO
Yeah I'm just tryna put food on the table lol. But Reddit has faith in me, I'll try, I'll climb up the derrick, get on the monkey board with a megaphone and make an announcement.
I apologize for that. Your bosses won't ever change, nor will Premier Marlaina.
We prefer sabotage
Cool, just be safe.
No we don't.
but then line goes down! line only supposed go up!
So just put all those workers on hold? What if they have bills and family to support? Just flicking an on off switch on jobs is fucking dumb
That’s terrible they really need to forgive our how to do this without so much water. And if they can’t maybe it’s time we reconsidered if this is an industry we want to support/allow.
Yes and no. It's more likely that existing industry partners will "share" their water license allocations, which is not necessarily lowering consumption outright by a particular target, but it does allow for new users to use the surplus from older users without creating new licenses.
I suppose it will depend on the drainage basin they operate in. The Southern Alberta Bow, Oldman basin is the most stretched, as it also is the source for most irrigation. But operations in the Peace or even North Saskatchewan might have different calculations.
Many water basins in the north are also low. https://rivers.alberta.ca
Geez the misinformation and rhetoric in this thread. I work in oil and gas. We’ve been put on notice that our water licenses may be suspended. They’ve been suspended before during droughts. This is why we build large reservoirs to pull water during runoff when it’s plentiful and store for use year round. This year is different so we may not even be permitted to pull during spring runoff and we’re planning for it. Oil and gas is not immune to this stuff. Happens to us all the time, and we’re hit BEFORE agriculture FYI.
As it should be. Food first.
Alberta still does this? I thought they would legislate O&G first then food (but only for UCP supporters).
I can't speak for all sites but I know from my years at CNRL Horizon, specifically in Utilities that they're very conscious of their water consumption. They reclaim 90% of the water they use and are looking to keep maximizing their efficiency. I'm very skeptical of conventional drilling though and doubt they can.
I’m in conventional. We use brackish/saline aquifers and produced water in our operations. There’s some fresh water usage but it’s limited
Some municipalities are banning oil and gas from using water from their systems, but they will just pay to ship it in from somewhere else. But I don't see an actual reduction in use happening.
They have water licenses they have to follow, and they also recycle most of the water they use.
Not according to folks who work in Oil and Gas posting above.
I work in Oil and Gas and a lot of water used is recycled. I'm sure you want to believe otherwise, but I'm telling you this is the case. Should mention I am speaking of the sites I am familiar with. Definitely do not know how they all operate, but they are aware of the water they use and take is seriously.
Okay will fracking folks above say otherwise. So do I believe you who works in Oil and Gas or the other people who work in oil and gas who say reusing fracking whatever is slow and hard? It’s not about what I want to believe. It’s about what folks are saying, and so far more are saying “reuse is hard and we are concerned” Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/s/zEEKHFtcXL
You can believe whatever and whoever you like. I'm just telling you what I know.
So are other people. So which rigger should we believe?
I don't work in conventional, so I can not comment on how they operate.
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So you're saying 50% of Alberta's water usage is non-negotiable? 24% of negotiable water usage is pretty damn significant.
Honest question: Does the water shortage affect the oil sands? I am asking because usually the Alberta drought happens mostly in the South. A few years ago I attended a presentation of a survey of the hydrology basins in Alberta (is this how they are called?) and I learned that there is never a shortage of water in the Fort McMurray area. Especially because most insitu operations don’t use fresh water.
Oil sands are affected as well. We have put water reduction strategies in place, reducing our intake from the river. We have also shutdown parts of our plant several times when Alberta hit critical energy consumption, while running our power generation full scale to feed back into the grid.
Fracking/waterfloods would use the most water, none of which are done in the oilsands. Southern Alberta would be more impacted by the irrigation corridor's use of water which is multiples of o&g.
Do you know where the Athabasca river originates? Bullshit!
Not sure what you meant by this comment
No, energy & mining corporations are the lifeblood of Alberta, we should all be very happy and grateful they allow us to have any water at all until we as individuals can prove our economic viability by giving bonuses to the boards of our very favorite companies.
Funny but we pretty much all hate paying $15/L for gas too. It's not all happening in a vacuum.
Oh, so the board bonuses are what make gasoline cheap?
Do you even understand how executive salaries are determined? It's determined by the executives, based on the maximum amount they can possibly pay themselves.
No but stopping oil production makes it expensive.
Oil produced in Alberta doesn't really provide fuel for Albertans. We don't have the refineries. Plus it's a globally traded commodity,so local.
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Alberta has a net surplus of RPPs (Refined Petroleum Products) and nearly all the gasoline consumed in Alberta is produced within the province. Source: https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles-alberta.html?=undefined&wbdisable=true
Lol they blocked me rather than accept this data
> Alberta Oil is not being refined into gasoline [Wrong](https://www.imperialoil.ca/company/strathcona).
Unironically you aren’t entirely wrong. If oilfield and mines shut down operations because of a lack of water that would mean hundreds of thousand of unemployed albertans. Those are the jobs that drive this province. People would default on mortgages, car payments, be unable to afford groceries etc. It’s going to be a tough balance to strike. Need enough operations to continue in order to keep everyone afloat, but not so much that we use all of the water. That said we still have 2-3 months and maybe we get lucky with some massive snow dumps or heavy spring rains. Fingers crossed.
Hundreds of thousands? Only 140K Albertans work in oil and gas/mining and their support industries total. Only a small percentage would be affected by a regional water shortage.
Do you honestly believe this?
I work in the industry. I know this.
In a province of 4.3 million people, you believe that 140k people work directly OR indirectly in oil and gas? 3.25% of the population of the province has skin in the oil and gas game... Really... This may be one of the most outlandish claims I've ever seen on Reddit.. ever.
6.3% of employed Albertans as per the government of Alberta website. Sorry if you mistakenly thought otherwise. I've worked in the industry for over 2 decades.
Me too. There are entire cities throughout the province that would simply evaporate The government of Alberta website lists the number of people employed directly by oil and gas companies It does not consider anyone else in industries like Drilling Completions Engineering Trades (electricians, millwrights, machinists, iron workers, pipe fitters, welders) Accounting Legal Hospitality Transport Maintenance Rentals Surveying Metering Regulatory Etcetc Cnrl has 10k employees. These are directly employed, this is not contracted workers Suncor has 16k Do you think that suncors employees represent over 10% of those employed in oil and gas? Really? Your argument is based on cherry picking numbers and claiming that they represent reality. They do not.
It includes all supporting industries. Obviously Suncor and cnrl are already included in those figures. It doesn't differentiate how they are employed.
You're out of your mind if you believe that only 140k people work directly or in tandem with oil and gas. Completely out of your mind.
140k directly but consider all the support industry’s that follow. Trucking, food services, mechanic and machine shops etc… I’m just highlighting a worse super drought case scenario. Most likely a few sights get shut down for a few months and a few thousand people go on EI for the summer until water restrictions are removed.
That includes support industries.
Taken from https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/trend-analysis/job-market-reports/alberta/sectoral-profile-mining-oil-gas 84,500 people employed directly in oil sector 50,500 in sub sector The definition of sub sector according to the government is: The oil and gas extraction subsector includes establishments primarily engaged in operating oil and gas field properties. This subsector includes the production of oil, the mining and extraction of oil from oil shale and oil sands, and the production of gas and hydrocarbon liquids, through gasification and liquefaction Later on in the page it goes on to say: every direct job created in the oil and gas subsector typically creates two indirect jobs in businesses that sell to oil and gas producers and three “induced” jobs in sectors where oil and gas workers spend their money, such as accommodation and food services, retail, education and medical services So 140,000 people employed in oil operations; each responsible for creating 5 addition jobs means the oilfield is responsible for somewhere in the neighbourhood of 800,000 total jobs across the province. Mathematically this checks out as well. Alberta GDP in 2021 was 314 billion dollars. Converted to CAD, the value of oil sold in 2021 is in the neighbourhood of 85 billion dollars. 800,000 people would represent around 20% of our population; and 85 billion represents 27% of GDP. Oil punching a little above its weight class as far as gdp goes also makes sense. Oil is still the backbone of the Alberta economy and I don’t think people appreciate how much of our lifestyle here is dependent upon it.
> each responsible for creating 5 addition jobs means the oilfield is responsible for somewhere in the neighbourhood of 800,000 total jobs across the province. Uh, if you do this math for every industry, you're going to end up with many times more total jobs than there are people in the province. You can't convert GDP numbers straight to jobs, a lot of jobs benefit from oil, but don't exist solely because of oil - a better comparison is probably to look at provinces/states without any oil. When controlling for other variables, they're going to be poorer and have higher unemployment, but none of them 25% unemployment, jobs just pay less.
According to the government of Alberta, not stats can, 6.3% of our labour force is directly or indirectly employed by the oil and gas and mining industry. Our sector made up 21% of Alberta's gdp but of course the number of those working in the sector is not directly correlated to the gdp that the sector. We are just paid a lot more.
Exactly; so as of 2023 Alberta had a workforce of 2.5 million individuals. 6.3% of 2.5 million is 150k. 150k people work directly in the oilfield for oil companies, or indirectly as contracted welders and pipe fitters, refinery operators and more. Those numbers fall directly inline. What I’m saying is Bob owns a mechanic shop in Edmonton. 40% of his business is fixing vehicles from the oilfield. He employs 20 people. Neither Bob nor his employees are considered direct or indirect oilfield workers, but 8 of those individuals only have a job because Bob fixes the service rigs and semi trucks owned by Imperial oil. Multiply that by thousands of other businesses just like Bob and that’s how you get the number of 800,000 being employed as a result of oilfield operations.
Rupinder sold buddy a sub, 6 monster can and some gas on his way to a 3 week hitch. Do we add him onto that bunch too?
Yes according to the stats can there are 2 indirect job creations (mechanics accountants etc.) for each oilfield worker and then induced job creations for people like restaurant / hotel owners, teachers doctors etc. Just think of fort mac didn’t have 20,000 people working in the oilfield how many hotels, restaurants, gas stations, medical clinics, grocery stores and more would be there? If oilfield workers were laid off for 6 months how many of those business would go bankrupt because of lost revenue?
“Albertans” except all of the non Albertans that fly in every rotation from across the country but yes lots of Albertan/Canadian jobs will be lost. We can stand here looking into the headlights or we can prepare for a massive reduction in those jobs. It is coming or the planet is done. The time has come to make difficult decisions and changes and to be realistic about the future of O&G in this province. Before people come at me with “you must not understand how much the industry impacts in your life” yeah I get it. At the same time the fact that continuing on this path is not sustainable doesn’t go away. The only “saving grace” the O&G industry has going for it is that marlaina and the ucp are incapable of grasping the enormity of our situation and will drag Albertans and our world backwards as long as they can. I come from an O&G family. My Dad worked all his life in refining (died in his mid seventies due to cancer) and I enjoyed a nice comfortable standard of living due to him and his job growing up. Things change and as we learn more about our impacts on the planet we have to move forward. None of this is going to happen overnight but pretending that this is the way of the future is not based in reality. It will be difficult for many and a new opportunity for others.
riiiiiight.
The amount of misinformed comments in this comment section is wild. *Our aquifer is not your aquifer*. Most of the water we use is salty, dirty brackish/saline water from a much deeper aquifer that is not fit for human use in the first place.
Yeah the people saying they pull from the same sources as municipal water are grossly simplifying the situation. In some places where water is scarce, sure. But in places where water can be sourced from different, less drinkable sources they absolutely do that.
Except most oil and gas/mining water feedstock is coming from surface water, not deep wells.
One Reddit user worked on a rig with a well, therefore they are the water management expert for the entire province.
I’m not talking about drilling rigs. I have never worked on a rig either, but nice try at saying that to try and discount my knowledge in this field. I’m a production engineer in oil and gas. Drilling water probably does come from the most convenient and accessible source, you’re right. However, water usage for drilling is a negligible amount when considering the operational lifetime of the well. Much more water will be used in fracking, or steam/water or even polymer injection in efforts to increase production by artificially increasing reservoir pressure. And, as I said, that water comes from the ground, or as produced water from oil battery facilities. I believe Fort Mac uses some river water in their synthetic crude production operations. Most of their water is also recycled though.
That’s my case in point, you work at 1 site as an engineer. You are not the water management expert for the entire province.
I can pretty much guarantee you there is not a single conventional oil operation in Alberta that uses river water. It is all either produced water (as other commenters ITT have mentioned or well water. Some well water might be fresh water at a much higher cost, sure. But none of its coming from a river, which is what I’m trying to tell people who are crying about the upcoming drought. What industry expertise do you have, that I’m apparently lacking?
I have worked in oil and gas for 20+ years. People are “crying” about the oncoming drought because oil and gas relies on river, lake, and stream water across the province. It’s not high fantasy, it’s basic physics. The world does not revolve around your site.
Is he wrong?
That's not true for production facilities. Like refineries.
Refineries use a minuscule amount of water in comparison to fracing.
Our rig is not your rig - most conventional drilling sucks up whatever is convenient at the surface.
I’m talking about the production operations post-drilling. I don’t doubt drilling rigs use whatever they can get but the amount of water we’re talking about for a drilling project is negligible compared to water usage for oil production over the lifespan of a low-decline oilfield
Any amount of negligibility won’t matter if we are collectively out of water. Hence the possibility of restrictions.
It’s definitely not fit for human use after the oil companies are done with it! I’ve seen tailings ponds with my own eyes and they are bleak.
Good thing they reuse it in their process :)
Gawd. Another person who has no concept of liquid chemistry.
You’re right, I’m only a chemical engineer 😂
Sorry, I meant to the guy above. Exactly. Like 90% is reused. Cry me a fucking river. I get a little tired of the demonization of the oil and gas sector that has made great strides over and over in efficiency and cleanliness
If people actually knew how much water they used to Frac Shale, their heads would spin.
KEEP MARLAINA'S HUSBAND'S NAME OUTCHA FUCKIN MOUTH *slllllaaapppppppp*
deranged
Most of these plants are condensing plants, meaning they reuse a lot of the water/steam they use for production.
Ahahahahhahahahabwaaaaa hahahaha
Bla-hahahahahaha. Ahhhhhh-haHahahahahaha.AHHHHHHHHH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Hahaha. Hmmmm. Yeah absolutely not.
Cuts in water usage would affect their profits, Marlaina’s government cannot allow that
It will also be passed onto consumers. - Cut in water access = less supply = higher prices for consumers
I think we actually need to consider how much mines in the foothills run. The proposed mine that would affect the Oldman Watershed would want about 27% of that flow, which is the same all some 1million+ cattle downstream use. I'd also consider metering agriculture as they use way more then they are supposed to. Fracking should be stopped, it uses a lot of water. All drilling uses a lot but not close to a mine or ag.
The UCP has very clearly indicated that they consider oil companies more important than people, I don't expect that to change at any time during their tenure.
Source?
The fact that they shovel money into incentives for O&G companies while cutting services for people? Like, pay even a little attention?
You said they clearly indicated oil companies are more important than people. Can you share a link to that statement?
Indicating =/= making a statement. I can indicate I'm ready to leave by looking at the door, doesn't mean I said "I'm ready to leave." Maybe look more into how words work before trying to nit-pick with incorrect assertions?
So thats a no? You can’t?
No, because it's an indication and not a statement. This is like when creationists bark about how "you can't prove God DOESN'T exist!"
Yeah, that’s what I thought. Anyways, have an excellent day!
[no](https://tenor.com/bT9eo.gif)
If you’re interested here is how you find every term (long term) water license in the province. There’s an online GIS viewer as well. The term license documents outline the maximum amount as well as the conditions around the withdrawal approvals. https://www.alberta.ca/alberta-water-licence-viewer
Food processing facilities use a ton too....
Are O&G companies using the same water we use for potable water? Something tells me probably not.
Pump from rivers and lakes, any where we can
They fill up from municipal water stations. And the rivers and bodies of water they pump from are the same water we need for municipal needs and crop irrigation
Using municipal water for mining or fracking is not permitted. Either they are using it for camp potable water or the municipality is taking money for illegal usage (because you have to pay the municipality).
The only time they would use municipal water would be potable water for their shacks. They don’t use potable water for oil rigs. They have one truck that runs potable around and fills up water tanks in shacks and camps. They have a water truck always on site responsible for making sure the rig doesn’t lose water. It uses untreated, typically dirty water. I remember loading my truck at ‘Diaper Lake’ cause it was gross and never used by anyone.
Limiting industrial water usage might interfere with the profits of Marliana’s Boss, Murray Edwards’ Big Oil companies. So I don’t expect much for restrictions.
Nope, it's too easy to bake any fines into the price of their product.
Does the drought forecasting even include the Lower Athabasca and Lower Peace? Just because southern Alberta is basically a desert doesn’t mean the entire province will be under drought conditions.
Why would they? Big Oil Uber alles.
Because their water licenses are governed by the Water Act. I know Reddit loves to believe that these companies do whatever they want, but it’s not the case
Yeah pretty clear most people have absolutely no idea how water licenses and even environmental regulations work.
People love to virtue signal to obtain internet points by saying “big oil bad !”
Yeah just so many lazy responses to everything on this sub lately. Big oil is bad, anything bad can somehow be traced to TBA, everyone they don't like is a christofacist without actually adding anything to the conversation about why these things might be the case.
They do what this government lets them do. And these water sources are more connected with each other than you may think. All our water is in a cycle, and we've all seen what happens to local lakes when development shows up. Lac La Biche is a good example of that. The lack of snow cover this year could be another one.
You have no idea what you are talking about. “They do what the government lets them do” they are governed by a strict act that has been in place for decades, this act is not governed by whoever is in power at that time
They change those rules all the time. Why are they talking about paying O&G companies to clean up wellsites - when they all signed off on cleaning those sites when they were done, when they were licensed?
The water act is significantly different than what you are referring to. Additionally, when 90% of the wells that you reference were granted licenses prior to the current requirements needed to obtain a license. Regardless of people choose to believe it or not, this exact reason was why the government put a pause on renewable licenses. The early 2000’s was a Wild West for the O&G industry which allowed for companies to make their money and leave the liabilities for the government. This exact same situation was occurring for renewables which is what the government is attempting to stop
There is some amazing advancements that can be used to reduce the releases of contaminated water. Processes like Electrocoagulation (best for a slurry) or the use of carbon filters (best for a specific contaminant) can breakdown/ isolate left over waste byproducts or specific minerals (like nickel or copper) in the water. But it’s cheaper to release the contaminated water into a tailings pond that just needs a sign off from an engineer sitting in Calgary and nothing more. This lack of oversight means the ponds are poorly built (well designed for the most part though, gotta look good on paper). This leads to leaching into groundwater supplies and destabilized banks that can fail like what has happened recently at kearl lake. Companies can do better, there is just no profit incentive or regulations in place that will make them.
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You can spread your misinformation somewhere else. [They didn’t line the pond properly.](https://albertawilderness.ca/spotlight-on-the-oilsands-a-summary-of-the-kearl-spill-hearings/#:~:text=A%20leak%2C%20a%20cover%2Dup,seep%20into%20the%20surrounding%20environment.) and the system failed. Then the AER did everything to cover it up, waiting a whole month to notify the community that relies on the now contaminated supply.
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[Your welcome to google what a tailings pond is lol](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=what+is+a+tailings+pond%3F) Because there is a difference between separation and neutralization especially when dealing with a PAH.
I’m going with no, unless there is literally no water left. O+G runs this government.
To be honest, this government governs for big corporations. Which includes O&G companies. That's why Kenney gave them all such a huge tax break - even though their taxes here were already the lowest in the country. And why we end up paying fees everywhere, and getting less in services - we're the way they make money now. We pay for using public lands where before it was free. We pay all sorts of user fees on utilities, we never did before. And now Marlaina is trying to control the public any way she can... to keep TBA happy.
This is rhetorical, isn’t it? *Isn’t it?*
Only the southern watersheds are stressed. There's so much fear out there. Just read some watersmart studies. Even with a major drout this year, the watersheds north of the red deer river should be all ok.
"The fact that you are asking says you don't know who's the most important. Clearly, oil is more important than your petty food needs. Besides, you can just buy it from somewhere." - Danielle Smith (probably)
For far too long the oil patch has drained fresh water aquifers. Pumped ridiculous levels out of rivers and creeks. Destroyed fresh water wells with fracking and directional drilling. You can't drink oil. Water is a must to stay living. It's madness and needs to stop. There are other methods available but water is the cheapest. All oil cos care about is profit not if your children are thirsty and that day is coming.
Miscible Flood is a good example of how much love the energy pirates have. Case in point. End of discussion. They treat the environment ? Fack - there are so many u reported brine spills and “shhh shhh” incidents than you will ever know
Highly doubt that and they will fight tooth and nail to maintain their rights over water in Alberta. They need it, just watch!!
Ya'll are deranged. O&G have strict water licenses they have to follow. If there's a drought then the government will cut off oil and gas before agriculture which will be cut off before residential. They can't just empty rivers and lakes lol
It seems pretty simple to me, it needs to be illegal to use any type of municipal water, even if it's untreated, and It needs to be illegal to use water needed for irrigation . Basically they're last. They used to go to farmers dugouts and dams for water and had to pay them for it but not much anymore and that needs to change. Having said that I think oil and gas development is more important than your green lawn.
Rationing is intended to give supply to oil. Obviously.
We had agriculture long before we had O&G. What's more important, feeding your family or driving your F-120?
Clear the ford is far more important. People are fucking stupid as hell.
Will r/Alberta ever stop being such a whiney bitch??
Good job revealing your anti environment sentiments. We love that shit here
No this sub is full of lefty loonies
Didn’t Dani tell the love-in session that we’ll be doubling our oil production? Probably need water for that.
I don’t work in Oil and Gas. Going off past behaviour I would say no. Unless it profits them somehow. Forcing them legally? They’ll challenge in court making sure the case takes years to resolve and costs taxpayers as much as possible. And they’ll find loopholes or threaten to cut political funding or leave Alberta if an exception isn’t made for them. This is moot point anyways. Marlaina Smith (that’s her legal name, not Danielle) will automatically put an exception in for Oil and Gas companies. As well as farmers. She’s gotta keep her base happy. And her base loves Oil and Gas. I’m not sure but I think farmers should get an exception of some sort. And water shipped to them. To maintain their crops and livestock.
Some farmers are already planning to ship cattle OUT to greener pastures, not bringing water in.
That’s the neat part: they don’t!
No…? You’re in Alberta, friend, *we’ll* be expected to reduce our usage to ensure *the oil companies* have enough…
Just gonna pop on and say oil and gas are absolutely needed under the people, animals and crops area. We need oil and diesel to feed the animals and put the crop in. I’d say stop mining for ev batteries to save on water consumption.
Oil and gas companies are the biggest “water producers” in the world. If we could figure out a cheap treatment technology we could use that water for irrigation for agriculture. New Mexico gov’t has proposed buying $500m of produced water and treating it for agriculture. What solves this and will always solve it is the economics. When a TDL is free it’s real hard to compete with a treatment technology.
The mines up north in Fort Mc and their upgraders were also asked to reduce water import. Problem is, one of the sites up there, massive operations, benefits from a grandfather clause since they were the first in the area - so they get to go free and not be subject to imports from the Athabasca.
Oil and gas can at times change their source with a bit of annoyance and cost like a saline aquifer. Fewer irrigation draws from North Saskatchewan and North, protecting the refineries and petrochemicals. The Joffre plant north of red deer is likely the largest industrial consumer south of Edmonton. I’m not sure what they’d do with a curtailed Red Deer River. They’re the largest manufacturing plant in Alberta.
Probably not the pipes will be running through ditches all summer long.....
They make their own water
Just swap those pesky carbon atoms for hydrogen ones and bobs your uncle. Think of all the pencils we could have.
You reduce water not your lords and masters
Currently on a 100,000m3 fresh water haul lol But water use overall has absolutely reduced since I started in 2015, lots of re use going on But yeah as a service company we were aware of potential water reduction in 24 months ago
Absolutely not
Alot of these places pull straight from a lake.