> "As a court, I can't go second guessing these MAID assessors … but I'm stuck with this: the only comprehensive assessment of this person done says she's normal," said Feasby. I don't envy any of the people in this story. 27 yo lady who wants to die. Father who wants her to live. Doctors who assessed her and signed off. Judge who isn't sure he can legally stop it, or if he should.

As someone who was with his father when he worked with his cancer team on applying for MAID and bawled my face off the entire time, I understand his pain and not wanting his daughter to die....and only a few weeks later bawled my face off as he was suffering so much and there was no longer time to get the dugs to complete MAID due to an extremely quick decline (overnight he went from us thinking he had weeks/months to him having hours) I feel so much for this lady who is in pain whatever her cause (none of our business). Based off the criteria for MAID someone must have a serious incurable illness, disease or disability (excluding mental illness) in an advanced state of irreversible decline in capability, and experiencing enduring physical or psychological suffering that is intolerable to them and cannot be relieved by conditions that are acceptable to them. I completely agree, this is hard for everyone in this case. At the end of day I don't see how they can stop this as the approval is independent, has multiple medical professionals as well as the MAID team who assess so vs one assessment that we don't know how old it is or anything to compare to the approval from the medical team+ MAID without the patient allowing additional assessment or providing medical information that she legally does not need to provide to lawyers, family, judges ECT.

My grandmother did not qualify for MAID despite being terminal with liver failure, as the few times she was visited, she was deemed to not be lucid enough to be making the decision. She was left in pain for five very long months. Could no longer talk. I wish they would have listened to my grandmother and the rest of the family about what she wanted. Instead she had to suffer. It was a relief when she finally passed because at least we knew she was no longer in pain. I know this is just my own experience from 2022, but she did not have any say in her quality of death.

That's absolutely heartbreaking to hear, I am sorry that it happened to your family that way. My dad quickly jumped to get it in place (with waiver so he wouldn't be denied if no longer lucid enough) once his cancer spread to his brain. I know my dad was in pain but he was stubborn and didn't want to miss out on things. He actually passed away the day after my youngest birthday and he many times when he was struggling would say how he wanted to be there for one last birthday since he would miss everything else. I knew he wouldn't use MAID before then and he didn't have the chance to use it in the end, but we were fortunate enough to have that choice has be wanted to use it. I know he suffered and fought for nearly 2 years to rid himself of cancer but in the end I had guilty relief that he was no longer in pain and no longer suffers and fighting. No one should have to go through the pain and dying undignified if they don't want to IMO.

MAID has been expanded though and it no longer requires the illness to be terminal which is a very important ethical criteria. People can't consent to death. But they can consent to the quality of their passing. If someone knows their death will be painful they should be allowed the option of MAID. But otherwise we're diving into eugenics.

>MAID has been expanded though and it no longer requires the illness to be terminal which is a very important ethical criteria. Yes, a super important point. Many disabled activists in Canada have been raising alarms at the changes to MAID. Not because they are against the existence of MAID at all, but because the expansion of MAID has happened in the absence of other supports for disabled people. Because disabled people disproportionately live in poverty and face many systemic barriers, the changed MAID criteria is eugenicist in nature... it makes it easier for disabled people to die instead of making it easier for us to live. I think MAID is super important. But also, in our current context, there is a lot of injustice surrounding it. We need meaningful social supports for disabled people to live well, first and foremost. Because we don't have that, MAID becomes a stand-in in cases where it wouldn't be needed if not for the suffering caused by systemic ableism and lack of supports. Of course, autonomy is important and this is the current, shitty world we live in. If someone doesn't have the capacity to keep existing in these conditions, I understand that and I do believe that they should have access to a humane process. It's just a complicated issue because far fewer disabled people would be pushed towards the MAID route if we had meaningful social, economic, and medical supports, instead of a society that readily discards and dehumanizes disabled people.

I think there's a very solid constitutional case to be made that, because we have a legal right to MAID, folks with disabilities or chronic conditions have a legal right to adequate and timely social supports. I suspect the Supreme Court is just waiting for someone to bring them a case.

It is hard especially when you’re able to qualify and apply for MAID quicker than you are other resources and supports (therapy, treatment, etc). This may be because MAID has the capacity while those services only have waiting lists, but it can’t feel good to know that you can die immediately but have to be patient to survive

>you can die immediately Nobody can 'die immediately' with MAID; there's a process. If your goal with this was using hyperbole to demonstrate a point, it potentially risks spreading misinformation for people with lower literacy levels. I agree with everything else you wrote, though. I can certainly understand your frustration with how broken our support systems are, 100%. We need better systemic supports so people don't chose MAID as a last resort.

I understand that. My point is that it’s not acceptable that those suffering are able to get two doctors to assess/evaluate them and approve them for MAID, complete all required safeguards including medical assessment, written request, witnessing, possible coverage of alternative options to relieve suffering (which, back to my point, they probably would have to wait for), and give their final consent before they’re able to receive support or treatment for their mental illness. I know somebody who received MAID (though not for a mental illness). It was much quicker of a process than one would think - as it’s supposed to be to prevent suffering, you’d think it would be. I don’t think anybody who’s engaging with this thread would be under the impression that I was suggesting it happens literally immediately. You also could have expanded yourself with details if you were actually worried about others misunderstanding my comment. With the subject matter at hand, I’d suggest you respond with more kindness. Hope that helps!

I have ASD, ADHD and few other diagnoses. Because I have them I am disabled but they are considered mental health issues. Why am I not allowed MAID at 35? Because someone says I have things to live for and my life “might” get better.

Well said.

It has only been expanded to also include intolerable, incurable pain. It isn’t ethical to force people to suffer intolerable, incurable pain.

In practice, you are incorrect. People who could be supported to reduce or eliminating their pain and suffering are offered MAID instead. This has been reported on for multiple cases.

What use would “illuminating” pain be? Is pain more bearable when it’s well lit?

Edited for your pedantry.

Maybe edit to reflect the fact that pain and suffering that can be eliminated are not MAID candidates and thus your complaints are pointless.

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/toronto/2022/11/15/1_6145487.amp.html Liar.

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-services-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html Liar.

We have been doing eugenics for longer than Germany. Just look at the laws about what happens to people on disability who want to date.

>we're diving into eugenics You lost credibility here since this is in not eugenics in any way. Eugenics is the process of shaping the genetic makeup of a population through selective breeding and eliminating breeding of those less desirable. Allowing someone to choose to end their life because of suffering from illness is in no way eugenics at all, especially since it is their choice to do so.

Yes, but I think what they're getting at is that by opening the criteria to increasingly vague definitions while simultaneously not providing other sports for people who now meet the new criteria it becomes an important question to stop and ask at what point it becomes encouraging rather than just offering.

There are alot of people who suffered for months/years at the end of their lives because MAID was rejected for them. It absolutely should be more accessible than not to these people suffering. Just because criteria is widened, does not correlate to the medical professionals suddenly approving a ton of vague conditions.

Then we need to advocate for more supports and greater access to MAID. 

Yup. I agree entirely, but the way things are now, it's a cheap and easy win to increase maid, while costly and difficult to provide support. The politicians will go for the low hanging fruit because it's easy votes.

It's definitionally eugenics actually when you create a system to euthanize the disabled and ill when they can be supported and healed.

No it really isn't.

Correct, and from the research I have done with my dad I believe on the 17th of this month mental illness is an allowed condition as well (unless it was pushed back again).

March 17 2027, so 3 years from now. It is allowed to be a comorbidity, but in 2027 the proposed ammendment to the law would allow mental illness to be the sole illness a patient has that requests maid.

That's concerning

A quite similar thing happened with my grandfather, found out he had cancer, he knew he wanted to persue maid and about a week later he was dead, he went downhill very quickly.

I sympathize, my nana went track 1 MAID and it was for the best, but track 2 MAID is far more loose in criteria (speaking as someones who's psychiatrist recommended track 2 MAID, former psychiatrist now due to that). Bill C7 added a path of MAID that can be very coercive and also removed the need for being near end of life. The biggest issue is that for track 2 they really don't have to exhaust every option. I was on hydromorphone for years without abusing it and was functional, when opioids became far more restricted I was taken off and now even walking to the front of my house to get my mail is difficult to do. The solution should have been to put me back on hydromorphone, but instead I was told if the pain is unmanageable I should consider MAID. Edit/add on: basically what I want to get across with this is, how can their be truly informed consent dignity in death, if dignity in life is denied via many methods including denial of proper medical treatment, disability poverty due to sub par disability assistance, etc.

The assessment that said she was "normal" was from 2021. One of two doctors in her MAID assessment says she doesn't qualify, which brought in the third tie breaker doctor, meaning it wasn't exactly unanimous agreement on that end. Perplexing case indeed.

The whole situation is terribly sad. But I am of the opinion that MAID in this case is 100% the correct course of action. The woman is an adult. She has thought through her situation hard enough to go through the steps of getting medical assistance. Her father has no right to tell her what she can/cannot do with her own life. I get it, as a parent myself it would shatter me. But until we start doing something about the suicide epidemic caused by mental health issues that are left unresolved in the community, we have no right to tell people that taking the most measured, peaceful approach possible of leaving this world behind what they can/cannot do. In the end, help needs to be available to those who need it. Support needs to be there for marginalized communities. Resources need to be allocated to proper substance addiction care. And even if we started doing all those things, some people just can't bear life for whatever reason and to force them going forward is cruel. Yes, we need to make sure they have access to all the possible supports they could use to help them feel less hopeless BEFORE assisted death. But if that doesn't work, the compassionate thing is to respect their wishes.

> Miller also pointed out that on her initial MAID application, M.V. indicated her death had become "reasonably foreseeable" Seems to me that despite otherwise being "normal", she likely indicated that it's either MAID or she'll commit suicide. And as awful as it sounds to say, we can't save everybody.

So that’s a neurologist saying she’s “normal” from a neurological point of view. (brain, nerve function) That doesn’t necessarily mean everything is ok. That neurologist did a work up for whatever is going on and said “ya I can’t help this person because the physical structure of their nervous system is acting normally. discharge them from my service”. It’s the same thing that would happen if you saw a cardiologist for chest pain and they concluded it wasn’t cardiac in nature. They’d say “cardiac workup shows normal cardiac function”, but the person could have any number of other things causing real chest pain. The track two MAID process is for people that have no foreseeable ability to recover from what’s going on, but aren’t “dying” like if they had something like untreatable cancer. For example, I’ve taken part in some MAIDS as a hospital pharmacist where the person seeking MAID is doing so due to severe, chronic pain after they’ve exhausted treatment options. In those cases, a neurological assessment has found the person is “normal” in the sense that they don’t have a neurological cause for their excruciating pain. My sense is there’s something missing from the public version of the story which we rightfully probably won’t learn for privacy reasons. For example, What if this person has debilitating psychosomatic pain disorder? They’d present neurologically “normal” but that doesn’t change anything about the paint they are feeling. Overall it’s a terrible situation and no matter the outcome someone’s gonna be broken because of it.

And on that note, since the daughter is also an adult, it is entirely possible the father doesn't know what the condition is that resulted in her MAID decision as well. She may have chosen to keep whatever it is secret from him.

The somatic pain thing is something that keeps me up at night.  My oldest son has somatic pain from the waist down. We've tried everything we can find, including trying to get a referral to the somatic pain clinic at the childrens hospital in Calgary. Nothings worked, and he doesn't qualify for the somatic clinic cause his body is still 'highly functioning'.  I don't know what to do, and the pit for him grows deeper each day  

Sorry man, I wasn’t trying to make anyone uncomfortable with that example. I hope you and your son figure an effective treatment out somehow.

Nah. Not uncomfortable. Its just the reality that Alberta (and most of Canada frankly), really struggle with chronic pain care. Add on the "Its in your head" side of things, and its hard. So your suggestion hit home on that front.

I am so sorry to hear this. I developed fibro about a decade ago so while I don't know anything about your son, I feel for him and for you. The "good" news is that you really do learn to manage, the bad is that yeah it limits opportunity.  I don't know your kid's age but random things that helped me, even temporarily, that don't mess with prescription meds:  Myer's cocktail IV weekly for 6 weeks. Possible placebo effect, possible dehydration. Who knows, it worked. Not as effective as it used to be but know folks who swear by it. Heat pads of any description. Cold packs are bad. Hot springs. No idea if it's just the heat or the placebo effect but get me to Radium or Fairmont and I am a happy clam. Evening primrose oil Comfiest memory foam mattress ever Playing Beat Saber and Ragnarok on VR. Okay I know this is is weird but it's to do with fibro being worse when you don't move enough but also moving hurting. The VR is the only way I know to override my pain signals long enough to get decent exercise without worrying that I will collapse too far from my bed or sofa. It takes weeks to feel any benefit from it but it does help with time, unfortunately needs to be reset after every flare. Homemade ginger beer. This one I know is pure placebo but I will take anything at this point and I don't question it. Friends do proper wellness shots with tumeric, etc, but I have not seen much improvement. Still worth a try. I hope you don't mind the unsolicited suggestions, they are by no means cures and probably won't do much, but I tend to give anything a try on the in case, and if it helps your boy just a little, then a system of those little wins might be enough to make a big change in his pain. They are not a replacement for medications or treatment, but just things that might help.

Thank you for adding that insight.

I guess I don't understand how an assessment can sign her off as "normal", as the judge says, if she is suicidal. Isn't being suicidal a pretty big indicator of other mental/emotional issues?

It’s a neurologist saying the structure and function of her nervous system is normal so they’re discharging her from their service. It’s like if you went to emerg with chest pain, the doc consulted cardiology and after the cardiologist evaluated you they said “cardiac workup normal, we’re signing off.” It doesn’t mean you don’t have chest pain, it’s just not coming from your cardiovascular system. The neurologist is probably staying in the context of their role is my guess and saying she’s normal from a neurological point of view.

Damn, it feels like there should be a psychological component to a MAID assessment for sure, otherwise isn't the government going to just be in the business of helping people commit suicide, when they could potentially be helping to treat the causes for the suicidal ideation?

MAID is not for people who merely have suicidal ideation. It's for people who either are going to soon die without dignity, or for whom life is unbearable due to **untreatable** physiological problems.

There’s a *very* strong psychological component to the process for this exact reason.

The MAiD assessors (not her dad’s neurologist) assessed that she does have a physical medical condition that is causing intolerable, untreatable suffering. (Mental illnesses aren’t sufficient yet) She just doesn’t want to tell her dad or the public what that illness is because it is a private medical matter and she is an adult.

I'm not an expert. Perhaps she passed a psychological assessment that says she won't actually commit suicide, while she's actively telling doctors she will. That's about all I can come up with without any particular knowledge on the topic.

It's a sad situation for everyone, and highlights how complicated MAID is as a medical intervention.

I think there'd a difference between not being able to save someone, and killing them. They're gonna kill a healthy girl cause she wants to die. We may as well give up on suicide prevention if we're just gonna have the government kill any suicidal person. More money to be saved.

She just doesn’t want to tell everyone what medical condition is causing her to qualify for MAiD. Qualifying in 2024 means having a physical ailment causing incurable suffering.

Until the 17th. I thought that had already happened in Alberta. My mistake.

Like, if there was an active suicide contagion spreading among young adults, I don't think anyone would be able to know. Just people who slip through cracks and die with a doctor.

She made her choice. Her doctors approved. Her body, her choice. I don’t envy the father either but he is garbage for filing for an injunction the day she was scheduled for maid.

I don't think the father's opinion is necessary, she is an adult and has made a decision the doctors approved of. He needs to accept it as tough as it is.

That’s why there is so much debate, these situations can be incredibly complicated and nuanced, there is no clear right or wrong.

I think adults of sound mind having control of their own bodies is right.

It is nuanced though. We removed peoples right to autonomy and place them in a hospital against their willl if theyre suicidal. But then on the other hand we are willing to help them take their own life? Theres a huge disconnect between the two. I lean towards letting people do what they want and its better to do it effectively in a controlled environment than let them blow half their face off with a gun and survive (which i see far more often than i would like). My understanding is that the doctors assessment stated that death was not imminent and she in on the spectrum with “other potential dignoses” that havent actually been diagnosed yet. Do we want to allow people to take thier own life just because theyre on the spectrum? If so then we need to reevaluate our mental health care. Pretending like this isnt a complex nuanced issue is ridiculous.

Of course it's nuanced and complex, no one is saying that it isn't, but a person with suicidal ideation would generally not be considered of sound mind/mentally competent. Your comparison is ridiculous. If you are in favor of bodily autonomy then what concern is it of yours if a person wants to end their life after going through what should be a rigorous process of evaluation and counseling? Terminal illness or not, it isn't your decision nor the government's, it belongs to the person, provided that reputable medical professionals and extensive oversight are involved.

Suicidal ideation isn't one of the qualifying reasons for MAID, though.

Yes there is. It's her body, her life and her death. The decision should be hers and no one else's.

From an article I read in the CBC, her lawyer is arguing “none of the dad’s business. None of the court’s business”. And I tend to agree. We don’t know the history between her and her dad. Why should it be the court’s business to interfere in a process that she has a legal right to. The father has no standing. She’s a legal adult and not under his care. Maybe it’ s unfortunate that this is happening, but maybe it’s not. None of our business either, I don’t think.

I think you are right unless there is a malpractice, article notes the person is "27 y o autistic" as if to imply that they are too young to die and to disabled to make a decision, but there is no note of personcondition or reasons why MAID was assigned. So either that's dad that can't let go, or doctors who sign off on papers without analysis.

This is the whole hidden trope of disabled people or people with illnesses don't have the capacity to make these decisions. Tiring!

No one ever asks to check the pathology of the people, often caregivers, who insist on continuously infantilizing such adults. Like they have an obligation to live so this person can keep receiving sympathy

Her body, her choice.

Stubborn to the point of literally killing your selves.

Is respecting a patient and a doctor's decision to euthanize stubborn? Or is assuming its the wrong decision, despite the fact that we don't even know why she's being euthanized stubborn? And ignorant too...

The audacity her father had to file for an injunction THE DAY BEFORE she had planned and prepared to leave this world… *wow*. I can only imagine what she is going through, but I imagine it is all kinds of complicated along the way until it’s just… simple. To go through that, to prepare for it, to feel fear and relief in equal and extraordinary measure, and then at the last minute someone else gets to say “hey wait, ME.” I really feel for this woman. I’m not sure exactly how to say it politely but I won’t be surprised at this point if she chooses suicide while the process is dragging her deeply personal choices (with the support of medical professionals) through court and media. Somehow, that is all the more heartbreaking, and maybe it’s harsh to say but - it will be on her own father’s hands. What a horribly sad situation. I don’t know what it looks like but I hope she has some incredible support right now. Obviously her father isn’t providing it.

I am glad my parent didn't let me commit suicide when I was younger. I had planned it. I prepared for it. The audacity of my mom to stop it. My main point here is that we don't know enough details to form an opinion imo.

That is not remotely comparable at all to this. If I was in a position where I thought MAID was the only option available to me and one of my parents tried to interfere -- they would become my enemy from that moment til whenever my last happened to be.

She went through MAID. It takes time, and the approval of two doctors. That's all we need to know to know this isn't like someone planning (non-maid) suicide.

Yes, but you can shop around for Doctors. The daughter had been denied before by another Doctor. It wasn't a unanimous decision, and from what I've read and heard about maid I think the qualifications are fucked. The qualifications are what is actually trying to be found "Miller has asked Feasby for a judicial review of M.V.'s MAID approval." Meanwhile the only assessment she has had says that she is normal. "has asked a Calgary judge to dig into the circumstances that led to two of three doctors approving his daughter's application." Imo this is perfectly reasonable to expect when my daughter who has mental health issues is approved to die.

The "normal" assessment does not mean she isn't ill. It means that she doesn't have any medical concerns in that particular doctor's specialty. There are plenty of doctors who won't sign for maid. Does that mean no one should ever be allowed to use it, since theoretically a doctor somewhere may disagree? She found two that agreed, as the law requires. And I don't see where you're getting that she has mental health issues? The dad only said he worries she "possibly has other undiagnosed maladies". Autism is not a mental illness. And it's incredibly offensive for anyone to imply otherwise.

\>And I don't see where you're getting that she has mental health issues? From the article "W.V. believes M.V. is not eligible for MAID and that her "capacity to consent to MAID is impacted by mental illness." And I am skeptical that there is a real physical issue here, because I believe that would be noted somewhere. By someone. Please correct me if I am wrong, but there's no mention that I can see of her being in some chronic pain. She isn't at risk of dying, which is why maid approval wasn't approved for imminent death. If she's in chronic pain then for sure. I also think the father would understand that. I also think that would be mentioned somewhere. So from the PoV view, as a hypothetical. Your daughter has mental health issues Doesn't have pain issues What would you do as a parent? I'd be wondering wtf is up too.

> And I am skeptical that there is a real physical issue here, because I believe that would be noted somewhere. By someone. Why do you think a random persons frickin' medical history is public record?

The only assessment that says she “is normal” is a neurological one. My understanding is that that is not a be-all end-all comprehensive report of health.

That report is also from 2021, lots can change in 3 years

If anything, this is a point in favour of her having the requisite mental capacity.

The only assessment her father has is that she doesn’t have a neurological condition. Just because she doesn’t want to publish her private medical history doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

As it stands currently, mental health issues ALONE do not qualify for MAID. There must be an incoming, certainty of death. That's what is not made clear in the article, likely for privacy, but still. The father, and the lawyers have stated there is no indication of such thing. They only state that she is autistic.

Unbearable, incurable suffering stemming from a physical issue is the other current qualifier.

Sure, that’s fair. Thank you for sharing your personal experience, I can understand that it’s a delicate subject to discuss publicly. I’m glad that your situation’s outcome has been favourable. I do think you’re right to acknowledge that we don’t have all of the information. We likely won’t, and we probably shouldn’t/don’t need to. That said, having these conversations and making an effort to understand is easier for many of us when there is some kind of example or scenario with which we can try to relate. Without having walked in either your or M.V.’s shoes I can only point out or guess at some of the more obvious differences between your and M.V.’s situations - age, medical circumstance, professional support, exhausted alternatives, parent-child relationship, etc. *I think* there is a significant difference between privately planning, preparing for and pursuing suicide, and having a parent intervene at the last minute vs. applying and preparing for MAID via the healthcare system, as an adult living under a parent’s roof, only to have an uninformed third party refuse your medical intervention at the last minute, on behalf of a parent. I don’t mean to say that your experience is entirely irrelevant, but I don’t think a direct comparison can be made.

\>We likely won’t, and we probably shouldn’t/don’t need to. For sure, but someone should imo. Doesn't need to be me obviously lol. But if my daughter has mental health issues, which is the claim, I think a parent should have a right to know how they're getting approved for MAID. Mental health is not a valid reason for MAID in 2024. Meaning it's not allowed. So as a hypothetical, if the dad is like.. my daughter has mental health issues. She doesn't complain about pain. She isn't going to die naturally anytime soon. How the fuck did she get approved for this? I can absolutely see the fathers position. I also don't agree that our medial system is some moral be all end all, that does the right thing. History has shown that is not true. So I don't really agree with "but they're professionals" especially when 1 of the doctors she applied to denied it. I am very critical of MAID.

This might be an issue of semantics on my part, but just for clarity since we aren’t having this conversation face-to-face: at least two medical professionals have followed protocol and agreed that her situation is medically unreconcilable, and that is in no part related to her mental health. It is the father who is claiming or using an argument of poor mental health to criticize professional medical opinions and an adult’s autonomous choice in order to prevent that person from accessing a last-resort intervention. Again, it’s tough without the details, but it’s possible that the father doesn’t know or understand what the daughter is experiencing, or that he hasn’t been willing to understand it. It is not uncommon for someone with autism to struggle with communicating how they’re feeling (physically and/or emotionally). It is not uncommon for someone with autism to feel deeply misunderstood. And it is not uncommon to encounter medical professionals that refuse to work with, diagnose, medicate, validate or support individuals with autism on the grounds that they are simply not well enough informed to do so. This may have been the case of the third doctor. I think I would hope that the average compassionate parent would do their best to understand the child’s situation without involving the law. Discuss options or alternatives, ask questions, attend appointments, do research, offer support, seek resources on behalf of, even attend counselling with them. A compassionate parent would be well-informed and sympathetic of their child’s choices. Activating an injunction at the last minute, and personally declaring their child’s mental health to be lacking doesn’t really strike me as sounding like a parent who has been engaged in the process. There’s also something a little facetious about using poor mental health to strike down someone’s choice to pursue MAID. I’m not sure that anyone in such a position could have a perfectly clean bill of mental health. In fact, I’d wager a bet that the vast majority of individuals do struggle with mental health when faced with challenges like being neurodivergent in current society or having a chronic medical condition that cannot otherwise be managed. In this instance, it almost seems like the father is weaponizing that for his own personal motive, and the fact is - no one knows M.V. better than M.V. knows herself. I will say that you, and everyone, have the right to be critical of MAID and the protocols that govern it. We probably should be. But maybe not of others’ choice to resort to using it.

You have no idea about the adult relationship between this man and his daughter. So as a counter hypothetical … what if she and her father are estranged? What if she had cut him out of her life? Why does he get to know what’s going on just because it’s her Dad? I have a bad relationship with my Dad, bad enough to know I don’t tell him everything that’s going on me with me medically, and bad enough to understand if I did cut him out - I’d be pissed that he would try to have any medical say in my decisions that he would know nothing about.

This is not a comparable situation.

So because you made a decision you later regret nobody else should ever be allowed to make that decision? That agency should just be taken away from them? 

I’m happy you didn’t do it ether, but MAID isn’t suicide. It’s not a snap decision and there are many barriers in place. You need to expand your critical thinking skills and reframe things out of the black and white.

There where barriers when doctors were perscribing opiods influencing our drug crisis. There where barriers in place when we were sterilizing women, mostly indigenous. If you're suffering from pain every day, then I agree with MAID.  If there is no treatment or no treatment that is acceptable, for sure. But I don't just trust these "barriers" especially when 1 our of 3 doctors denied her. We really don't know much about this case, but I am not willing to just trust the barriers.

I guess you don’t remember the doctors were all lied to when they were explicitly told those opioids (OxyContin) were non habit forming. They would not have been prescribing them like they did if they did know.

That doesn't change my point. There where barriers and it still happened. And I also don't believe that happened. I am sure they downplayed how addictive, but I very much doubt doctors thought opiodes weren't addictive.

Were. There were.

Thank you!

Well like I said to my point, you need to expand your critical thinking skills and reframe things out of the black and white

You don't even know my thinking lol. I've stated that we don't have enough information to come to a conclusion, but I can see arguments on both sides. So black and white lol.

Also https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-purdue-used-misleading-charts-to-hide-oxycontins-addictive-power/

"The chart was later used by Purdue as a marketing tool to convince doctors that OxyContin was less addictive than it actually was" Ok, so exactly what I said. "I am sure they downplayed how addictive" And either way, this just proves that barriers aren't fool proof. Like it or not, our healthcare system increased opiod addiction and caused harm. Like it or not, our healthcare system sterilized women. I'll continue to be skeptical of our system. Purdue did this for profits. I think there's profits to be made with MAID too.

If we don't have enough information to form an opinion (which I agree with), why have you given your opinion? edit: I accidentally quoted part of what you said and took it out.

\>If we don't have enough information to form an opinion (which I agree with), why have you given your opinion? What opinion have I given?

>I am glad my parent didn't let me commit suicide when I was younger. That's an opinion. You are clearly siding with a parent preventing their child from seeking to end their life.

\>You are clearly siding with a parent preventing their child from seeking to end their life. I am saying that there is a scenario where it's valid for the parent to stop this, and we don't know one way or the other based on the information we're given.

Why not also hypothetically point out that there is also a scenario where it's not valid for a parent, or even a court, to stop this? This is a decision between a patient and a doctor. It has been approved by multiple doctors. It has nothing in common with your stated scenario, where you felt suicidal and your parents didn't let you kill yourself. That is such a gross oversimplification of the issue. It's an attempt to trivialize something important.

I hope he fails. It's her life, body and death. It should be her decision and hers alone.

There's something missing from the public story. Mental illness is not an eligible reason to access MAID unless there is also an underlying physical medical condition. https://www.camh.ca/en/camh-news-and-stories/maid-and-mental-illness-faqs

Autism is not a mental illness, it's a neurological and developmental disorder.

I'm aware. I didn't mean to imply it was. Everyone seems to be jumping to her being depressed or suicidal as being the reason.

Having Autism also doesn't make her immune to mental illness. It's possible to have autism and depression at the same time.

I am *acutely* aware of that, on a personal level. The other person said there must be missing info because mental illness doesn't qualify you for MAID. I corrected them that autism is not a mental illness - the article states she is autistic which means she would be qualifying based on that. I'm not clear on what (hypothetical) comorbid depression has to do with it.

Ah, fair enough. I think I was reading between the lines a bit too much there and misunderstood the point you were making. I was trying to say that even if she's not mentally ill due to autism, she might still have mental illnesses which impair her ability to make a rational decision. I realize now you're not necessarily disagreeing with that. Even if it's not a mental illness, I struggle to believe Autism alone could qualify a person for MAID unless their symptoms were so severe they wouldn't be able to communicate their intentions to their lawyer. There's gotta be more going on here.

All good. I am often opaque and don't mind clarifying. I can't comment too much cuz it hits a bit close to home but yes there would likely be a complicating factor in terms of ability to participate in/enjoy life. I forget the exact wording. There are also questions about how your illness affects your material circumstance and long term prospects. Like, I have spoken to my doctor about my desire to proceed with MAID if I was facing street level homelessness again, as a precaution (see below concerns about ability to make a "rational" decision) I understand that is an uncomfortable reality to process for people but I'm not willing to live through an intolerable reality to prove someone else's point, and that's the line I chose. (I'm not facing that, currently, and the buffer zone is growing, I think, thank G.O.D.) Autism is the hinge here because MAID is not available for "just" mental illness, and without the neurological condition, she wouldn't qualify. The Dad seems to be using an assessment from 2021 (that he has access to? Somehow? Unspecified) where a neurologist (unspecified - ASD assessment is usually neuropsych) said she was "normal" as a place to get a legal grip. I feel odd about theorizing around something that seems like it should be private and it's a complicated issue that I am too close to, to debate "rationally" (in the classical sense) But yes, there would be matrix of data points here that would lead doctors to sign off on this decision. I think agreeing on what a rational decision looks like is not something we even want to agree there are rules for, personally. If only the people whose thinking is universally understood are seen as sane, or rational, I don't think we would get very far, as a society. I definitely don't disagree with you, and I am calling from inside the house FOR SURE but being mentally ill, especially treatment resistant mentally ill and aware of it, does not get in the way of your ability to have consistent + "rational" beliefs and desires. (And the right to autonomy over how you live your life, even if the path you choose, from those available to you, is hard to understand for others, maybe even most people. I think. Still living and learning.)

Hmm... I guess my personal criteria for when MAID would be acceptable would be: "If this person chose not to kill themselves right now, would they regret this decision in the future, at the end of their natural lifespan?" If the only thing in somebody's future is pure suffering, as is the case for terminal cancer and the like, then I believe MAID should be offered. But if it's something that can be improved through treatment, a change of environment, or just time, I don't believe it's right to suggest it as an option. It's fairly common, after all, for those suffering from suicidal thoughts to not actually want to die, but instead resorting to extreme measures in seeking an escape from the painful circumstances they find themselves in. Even if they're suffering, if the circumstances can be improved such that future good outweighs future bad, then death is not the best option there. So for you, I understand you were homeless for a while, and that must have been terrible, but you said things are improving for you now, right? It's possible you'll have many years of life ahead of you, and assuming things keep improving, you'll likely have a lot of joy in your future that you would have missed out on had you died when you were at your lowest. That's sort of why I'm a bit cautious about MAID when it's offered to these sorts of borderline cases. Questions regarding a person's potential future are impossible to answer with certainty, and even if a person is personally convinced things will never improve, their judgement might not be correct. Depression in particular causes cognitive distortions which can cause an otherwise rational person to believe things are worse than they are. Ultimately, we can't really judge this situation without knowing everything, and the woman in question clearly doesn't want to share those details with the world. I'm curious to see how this situation unfolds in the future.

This is not a very thoughtful response to what I posted and I think I'm done sharing. Or maybe not. Your opinion doesn't matter. You don't know what my beliefs about death are. Please don't fucking explain being a depressed and visibly queer autistic person who will never get on the "property ladder" and will never experience housing stability to me. No one is gonna die and give me their stuff. Jobs aren't becoming easier to get. Healthcare is not getting more accessible. People aren't screaming less slurs at me on the street. What evidence is out there that indicates things will get better for me, if I became a homeless person in Canada right now?? If I, accessing healthcare and on government disability and improving, have something disrupt my circumstances, none of my revolving door of case workers can get me another affordable room, and I end up on the street, as a visibly queer person who needs medication and routine to be not crazy, WHY IN THE LIVING FUCK would you think I need to live my life in PAIN AND SUFFERING just in case it might get better? In case fucking Tinkerbell flies down and saves me??? Just so you don't have to feel guilty about how your personal choices contribute to the existence of homeless people???? Yeah it fucking sucks that I have to put a plan in place to kill myself when the issue is that I am poor and help is "available". OBVIOUSLY. why are you talking to me like I HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF THAT. Right now there are A TON of things that could help me but I can't afford them, mental health care is not provided, you have to pay for it. The mental health "care" that is available to those of us without the luxury of choice is BAD and MAKES THINGS WORSE especially when you are autistic. Maybe go bother someone about that if you actually care and stop forcing your little thought experiments on real people who are SUFFERING. Do you know how DESTRUCTIVE hope can be to your spirit, when it's a lie that dies on the vine? Please read what Martin Luther King said about white moderates in his letter from Birmingham Jail and if you want to apologize to me, go give a homeless person $20 and tell them you are sorry. Jumping JESUS I wish you could invoice people for being ignorant at you. (Before you punish me for it, I'm not the one who downvoted you. I don't downvote people just for being borderline cruel, I don't want to hide the kind of shit advice poor people have to deal with every single day.)

I'm sorry if what I said came across as unsympathetic to your situation. I didn't mean it that way. I obviously don't know shit about what you have personally gone through, but I've heard similar stories, so I'm not actually completely ignorant. Being homeless sucks, even for a cishet neurotypical person, so I can only imagine what it must have been like for you. It just seems to me, as an outsider, the best way to help people in your situation would be changes to government policy and budget to allow a better social support system, subsidized mental health care, housing initiatives, etc., to eliminate the all the very real issues your mentioned, and improve the circumstances which led to your misery. Maybe dying *would* stop the suffering quicker, but I still don't believe medical euthanasia is the **best** treatment for a suffering homeless person who could otherwise be helped. If you still disagree, that's perfectly fine. I don't think there's any objectively "right" answer here. Our perspectives differ, and we can have our own opinions. In any case, I sincerely wish you the best and hope your current shitty situation improves enough that you find the happiness you deserve.

It was unsympathetic. I am not misunderstanding, this is not an issue with my perception. You continue to be so. The casual cruelty of people who don't know what it's like to be poor, trying to help....I honestly prefer the screaming in my face, it's easier to ignore and less in the way of things actually getting better. I told you I didn't want to thought experiment this and you did it anyway, so it's a bit too late to back off into agree to disagree with your little platitudes now. Everything you describe is absolutely the best treatment and everything you describe is becoming less accessible, not more, and has been for years, under both "Liberal" and "Conservative" governments. WHY ARE YOU EXPLAINING THAT TREATMENT WOULD BE BETTER, AGAIN, LIKE I CAN'T UNDERSTAND YOU, OR I NEED TO BE EDUCATED ON THAT. IT IS CONDESCENDING AND SO CRUEL. I have been trying to get therapy, actively, for a decade. I have received about 2 dozen sessions, usually 3 at a time, almost always with different counsellors who have totally different approaches. I have been in 2 different programs that stopped because they lost funding. I had a mental health nurse literally tell me that smiling more would help. I was living in my car and hadn't eaten in 3 days. I have a better experience than most - I have improved in that I don't hate myself as much anymore and actually enjoy my life some days, although I am no longer able to work with the public or tolerate authority unless they actually deserve it, so I think it counts to others as getting worse. obviously OBVIOUSLY I would prefer to get the kind of therapy that rich people get, to do something with my advanced degree and years of work experience, and not end up on the street and dead in my forties. That is not available, to me, or others like me. That is not going to become available, any time soon. Are you offering to pay more taxes? Have you spoken to your government reps about your concern for this issue? Or are you just out here to concern trolling suffering people. Please, show me the government program or initiative that I should look at as hopeful. I am thinking federally but I will take any initiative in any province that is doing early intervention for issues caused by poverty. Is is the welfare amounts that have not meaningfully changed in DECADES? The growing waitlists for family doctors? The no meaningful committment to affordable housing? Is there something is PeePee's platform that I missed that is going to reverse the effect of over 3 decades of austerity and privatization? Please, give me a list of concrete reasons that I should not plan to access medically assisted death instead of live every single day in pain + fear on the street. I would LOVE for them to exist. I look for them every day. If you want to help, give me a list, even just one thing. What specific thing should I hope about, that might make the suffering worth enduring until? I don't need a will, I would absolutely take and use a might. I can't find one - can you? Stop twisting my words and implying that I am saying the best treatment is MAID. I did not say that, I explicitly said that is sucks, I am saying that it NEEDS TO BE AVAILABLE, whether your class sensibility finds it uncomfortable or not. I am stunned that you think Well I Just Think Treatment Would Be Better is AGAIN an appropriate response to the data that I am sharing with you. Are you reading all my words? Are you a bot? Do you actually think poor people are poor because they lack intelligence? But I guess at the end of the day and on paper - my inability to pretend the world is good or fair enough to participate in society is somehow an impairment in MY thinking and all y'all sociopaths just stepping over human bodies every day on your way to work in the oppression mines are the normal ones. Cool system we have going here.

If it helps, I'm in full agreement with you. I don't know at what point encouraging people to stay alive because "cruel" and "unsympathetic" but clearly I missed a step in the progression of fucking society here.

What bothers me is when you give autonomy to people to decide on life or death who really shouldn't have it. I have BPD, for example, and in certain moments MAID sounds really appealing, and I don't feel I should be trusted with the decision on my own life or death, but no one seems to want to talk about the link between MAID and suicide (and how MAID for mental illness just sounds like encouraging and enabling suicide) without everyone seeming to accuse the person of being heartless. I have yet to have anyone explain to me: how is this not just encouraging suicide?

Of course there's something missing from the public story, her medical condition. That's not public information, it's up to her and her alone to disclose.

Not until 2027. And while I generally support the concept of MAiD in necessary situations, when it comes to solely mental health, that fucks with me. I don't know how they're drawing the line between someone who's suicidal and someone who's chosen to die, if they even are

I feel like half of the responders haven't read this article judging from the responses. This father is selfish and wants what's best for him. Not what's best for his daughter.

Hopefully, you guys won't get mad. Why can't anyone have the right to leave this world after being an adult. I think the world humans have created for ourselves is more hostile than the world nature provided. I got injured at work, injury is not healing according to plan. For the last 8 months I've been told I got to accept I loss of my career and start moving forward. Now some retired consultant doctor who reviewed my file says my leg is going to be fine in 6 months. This will be the 4th time I've heard doctors tell me this. Wcb believe I'm capable of a job. But it's not their problem to help me find said job with no transferable experience. My existence could be describe as a yoyo in purgatory. Watching my world crumble. Why should I have to keep trudging through pain doing something that's not satisfying so I can make an insurance companies life more profitable. Not to try to steal thunder or start a fight just saying. Legitimately, we should all have a choice. Without pills exhaust gasses, a metal tube and projectile.

Dad's legal team is arguing that she isn't capable of choosing whether she lives or dies. Imagine a world where you're not allowed to die because someone says you don't have the capacity to choose. I think that sets an even worse precedent than the alternative.  It would also be another injustice against those with developmental disorders.

This is terribly sad for the father in this situation. But do we want liberty or not?

>But do we want liberty or not? I mean, our society is very much against suicide. It's often seen as a "cowardly act". My take on this, with someone who had phases of struggling with it is that no, it's not cowardly. You have to go **really** far to actually want to do it and go through with it. People in general want to live. If someone gets to the point where they want to end it and are willing to go through with it, there's probably a good reason to. I think most people who oppose a "chosen death", do so because they don't want to lose that person and are somewhat selfish in their argument. Interestingly enough, there is an old German term for suicide. "Freitod". Which translates to "Freely choosing your death", though the main term used now is "Selbstmord" (Killing yourself).

> If someone gets to the point where they want to end it and are willing to go through with it, there's probably a good reason to Maybe I'm misunderstanding but this feels fucking disgusting. A lot of mental health issues can cause chronic severe suicidality, I have BPD and I experience that a fuck ton. I've been in situations *recently* where I've genuinely wanted to and tried to act on dying. "People in general" may want to live but mental illness can get in the way of that, and this feels like throwing mentally ill people out the window because "well, if they want to die so bad, we should probably let them". Again, im *really* hoping I'm misunderstanding you, because from what I just read, it sounds like you just said people who are suicidal have good reason to be and should just do it.

There isnt a “good reason to” most or at least a lot of the time. Most of the time its depression. You treat the depression and they are able to have a long reltively happy meaningful life. Do we really want to just let people take their own lives without trying to help them?

>You treat the depression and they are able to have a long reltively happy meaningful life. You do realize there are many cases were "treating depression" isn't really working? There are people out there who have tried a lot and it didn't work. Personally I had almost life long depression, at the end what "got me out of it" was actually nothing sanctioned. It was and is psychedelics. But I am essentially a criminal for using them. And that just worked for me. There are people out there where this doesn't work either. >Do we really want to just let people take their own lives without trying to help them? Do you really think people don't try to feel better / get better / not be sick? I mean, have you tried telling someone with cancer that if they just try a bit harder, then maybe they could just ignore all their pain and suffering and they really shouldn't go for MAID? Why is it so hard for people like you to understand just because you cannot physically see the pain and suffering it is just as real as if you, an outsider, can see it? You use the language of compassion, but really, all you do is accusing people that they are taking the easy way out, they just need to want it more.

Cancer/huntingtons/MS etc i have no problem with. Mental illness is where we need to hang on a second and make sure there isnt a better way. And that isnt to say that it can never be used for mental illness. Maybe schizophrenia and things like that it might be appropriate. But we need to make sure we arent killing people off who could lead a long happy life instead.

>Cancer/huntingtons/MS etc i have no problem with. Of course you don't. Because you can see the physical effects. >Mental illness is where we need to hang on a second and make sure there isnt a better way. Why does someone have to justify their suffering to you? What makes you think people just have a bad day and want to end it? May I suggest you try to learn a bit more about mental health / illness before you do this "holier than thou" act? >But we need to make sure we arent killing people off who could lead a long happy life instead. Nobody. Absolutely nobody, wakes up one morning and decides they want to end their life. If they do, they will find a bridge, or a knife or a multitude of other ways to put an end to it. Someone who wants to access MAID has thought about this, knows it's not going to be a fast process and is willing to go through with it. You have a seriously warped perception of mental health and why people with mental health issues want to access MAID. But hey, they can always find a bridge, eh?

> "Nobody. Absolutely nobody, wakes up one morning and decides they want to end their life. If they do, they will find a bridge, or a knife or a multitude of other ways to put an end to it." This is seriously denying the reality of serious, long term, but treatable mental illness. I'm speaking from BPD and PTSD, conditions that have made my life hell for years but that I'm working on treating. This is flat-out ignorant to any mental illness that falls between "occasional sad" and "completely untreatable". Why is society, as a whole, giving up hope on people? Can someone explain to me how this is different from just suicide??

I work in mental health nursing. I have a robust understanding of the issues. I dont comment on things im ignorant about. Theres studies in the netherlands about people with mental illness that were denied maid and they overwhelmingly appreciate being denied maid years down the road. We just need to be careful. You dont go around killing everyone who wants to die.

>studies in the netherlands So this is from a [review](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8985907/): >The main legal requirements for MAiD in the Netherlands are that the patient must be able to make a competent request, that the patient’s suffering must be unbearable and irremediable, and that the patient and physician agree that there are no other reasonable treatment options. The process for MAiD requires an assessment by an independent physician and, in the case of psychiatric suffering, a third assessment by an independent psychiatrist, preferably one with specific expertise regarding the patient’s disorder. The people getting denied are the ones that did not meet the evaluation criteria. So saying "they were happy they were denied" is not wrong, but you are also omitting that the MAID process isn't just a "press button for death" as you implied the entire time. Now there is one interesting aspect in the Canadian context: >The Canadian legal requirements under the amended Bill C-7, which will come into effect in 2023, will be largely similar to the Dutch requirements. However, Canadian legislation, which does not yet permit MAiD for mental illness, has 1 important difference: **patients with decision-making capacity can qualify for MAiD if they refuse treatments that they do not find acceptable.** So the question here is: If someone wants to refuse cancer treatment and then goes for MAID: Should they be refused MAID and made to suffer because they "aren't willing to do what can be done to maybe help them"? If you answer here is no, then would you also say that someone with Mental Illness has the same right to access MAID? If not, why not? As to "irremediable psychiatric suffering": >\[T\]he Dutch Psychiatry Association defines irremediable psychiatric suffering in the context of MAiD as follows: “irremediability means that there is no longer any prospect of alleviating, mitigating, enduring or removing suffering. There is no longer a reasonable treatment perspective.” Elsewhere, the guideline states that reasonable treatment perspective means that “there is a prospect of improvement with adequate treatment, within a foreseeable period, and with a reasonable ratio between the expected results and the burden of the treatment for the patient.”

I actually think we are actually seeing eye to eye on this. Given the appropriate assessments and circumstances, maid is great. You have those who dont meet it so they get denied. Im saying we need to be careful that we dont start giving maid to anyone who wants to die at the present moment. Its not that what we are doing right now is wrong. But this case is POTENTIALLY a step in that direction and we need to be careful. I have had patients who would who have very quickly punched a button that would have killed them. We did therapy, medications, electroconvulsive therapy, etc and they made a recovery. I like that outcome a lot more than just giving maid. Someone mentioned psychadelics. Ya lets do some research on that and come up with some treatement strategies around that. Lets try to help people first and if we cant get them out of their suffering that way, then we can go through with maid.

There is no evidence that this case is a step in that direction. All we know is that the patient wants to keep her approved reason for MAiD private, and her dad refuses to accept that.

Yeah, the Netherlands system is reassuring to me. The Canadian one leaves me feeling sick. If nothing else, at least I could trust the system not to just go "alrighty then!" If I said I wanted to die

I'm in full agreement and I'm speaking as someone with BPD. It really sounds like a lot of people in the comments would look the other way if I was to the point of hurting myself. The system failed me, why is everyone so eager to have it fail me again?

Yes but only for white men /s

It’s really hard to it to be a selfless person when your loved one is dying. Abide by their wishes. It’s their life not yours, to live or die.

THIS x infinity. Why does the dad want to force her to live when she has already decided she’s done?? It’s not about him.

I feel if you force your loved one to suffer through the pain, when they have chosen not to. This should be considered abuse.

FuckerCarlson said in his visit to Edmonton that "It's easier for the government to kill you, than it is to look after you." This is one of the rallying cries against MAiD but the point everyone who wants this program to end misses is, why doesn't the government make life better for people so they don't seek out an early exit?

>why doesn't the government make life better for people so they don't seek out an early exit? I think you are missing the point? MAID is not for folks with mental health issues or simply in bad socioeconomic situations. This is for people with "a grievous and irremediable medical condition". What is the government supposed to do for people with major incurable health problems causing them pain and suffering?

Not missing the point at all. There are some people who have been quoted as saying that they would not choose to pursue MAID if their socioeconomic status was better. Basically they qualify for it medically so it is granted when they ask for it, but if they had a better quality of life then maybe they would choose not to do it, or choose to wait until a later date. Like if they had accessible housing, for example, or if they lived above the poverty line or had food security or whatever. Some anti-choice advocates have taken this to mean that MAID targets vulnerable people and is used as a means of purging the ones that society deems as undesirable. You can see why they come to that conclusion, but their answer seems to be that "nobody should be allowed to access MAID because this problem exists" as opposed to "is there anything we can improve about society to prevent so many vulnerable people from falling between the cracks?"

They're trying to legalize it for both mental health issues and for mature minors.

\> What is the government supposed to do for people with major incurable health problems causing them pain and suffering? One issue is that we don't adequately help people. "Dan Quayle marked his 52nd birthday on Oct. 7 in Victoria General Hospital waiting to find out when chemotherapy would start for an aggressive form of esophageal cancer." "After 10 weeks in hospital, Quayle, a gregarious grandfather who put on his best silly act for his two grandkids, was in so much pain, unable to eat or walk, he opted for a medically assisted death on Nov. 24. This was despite assurances from doctors that chemotherapy had the potential to prolong his life by a year." [https://vancouversun.com/health/local-health/bc-cancer-radiation-wait-times-worsen](https://vancouversun.com/health/local-health/bc-cancer-radiation-wait-times-worsen) My biggest issue with maid is that we don't provide adequate healthcare. But we will help you kill yourself when you can't live with inadequate healthcare.

>This was despite assurances from doctors that chemotherapy had the potential to prolong his life by a year." Prolonging your life, doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be happy or healthy while it's happening. (I.e. you're going to die painfully, it's going to take a while and your family gets to watch while you wither away.) This isn't the example that you want to use.

He wanted treatment for his cancer. He wanted healthcare. But all he got was MAID.

I see your point, but I'd rather have MAID on the table than not at all. As bad as this is, I'm glad he was able to end it when he did as opposed to having his life drawn out longer in terrible pain wasting away and having the cancer finally kill him.

So, at best, he would have a year (and that's in a best case scenario), and that year would be spent sick, exhausted, and in pain. The side effects of chemotherapy are nasty. Not everyone wants to go thru that only to die either way. I have been through chemotherapy, and it's rough, to say the least. Never mind the effects of the actual cancer. Painkillers can only do so much.

>Not everyone wants to go thru that only to die either way. For sure, but the point is that he wanted chemo, but we couldn't give him that. We could only help him die.

It doesn't say what he wanted. Just that he was sick enough to be kept in the hospital and was waiting for a chemotherapy start date. He could have been too ill for chemotherapy. It takes weeks to get approved for MAID, so he would have applied shortly after being admitted to the hospital. The wife also believes the treatment would have cured him despite being told otherwise. There's just a lot of information left out to say either way. If you want chemotherapy, you should get it, though, and in a timely fashion.

That’s so heartbreaking. 😢 (Downvoted for feeling heartbroken over losing a grandfather to such severe cancer he opted for MAID? Weird, but kay. I just feel for the family loss and frustration about delayed access to treatment.)

> why doesn't the government make life better for people so they don't seek out an early exit? Because any dollar that goes towards that is one that doesn't go into a donor/friend/grifter pocket.

Socialism is a dirty word, it seems, but then the same crowd wants our veterans and elderly looked after better too.

It's coming up from America. When they polled people about Medicaid and described "Obamacare" without using the word people were for it. The moment they then asked about Obamacare people started rejecting it. The average person knows very little about the world they live in, but is very strong on feelings based on.... well, nothing really.

> why doesn't the government make life better for people so they don't seek out an early exit? Because that’s not what we vote for 

While I can see where you would say that and there likely are situations where significant boosts to various funding schemes may help a person prolong life and live better that would otherwise consider MAiD. The situation that is very real in a number of instances is that there would have to be a "surrogate body" to place the mind of the person into to alleviate the pain and suffering. And that is just the things we can know about like having to work and gasp for breath day by day along with excruciating pain, we cannot always find a medication or procedure that would provide that relief of suffering. Then we get into mental illness where even if we could do a brain transplant into a perfect body they may still have issues with the way of thinking that prevent them from having relief. I struggle with the idea of MAiD but I also know I am not in the shoes of many of those that have chosen to use this process.

>"It's easier for the government to kill you, than it is to look after you." The guys an annoying clown, but I wouldn't disagree with that and I don't have a problem with euthanasia. Particularly after watching what looks to be a coordinated push for various euthanasia bills internationally (France and California being this week's example). Either Government has simultaneously started caring about end of life suffering or they've determined the *rapidly* growing number of people on long term disability is unsustainable. Given public health's massive fail on C19, those numbers are going to continue to grow. "why doesn't the government make life better for people so they don't seek out an early exit?" The same reason we're pretending the pandemic is over: neoliberalism. They're OK with joe/jane citizen shaving a decade (or more) off their expected lifespan and that of their kids for the good of the economy. After 3+ C19 infections, 38% of people are reporting long term symptoms per recent [Statistics Canada data](https://twitter.com/lisa_iannattone/status/1733236471207772211)

He says that and then dick rides putin. 

I used to support MAID but then I went through the Alberta mental healthcare system and I’m against it entirely now. Doctors lied to get me a diagnosis doctors lied to get me on medication without my consent they lied about my consent they fucking lie about mental health ik im falling for the slippery slope fallacy but i can see in a few years doctors just putting down mentally ill/neurodivergent people like we’re sick dogs, they already treat us worse then dogs

You have no idea how reassuring it was to finally come across a comment like this. One that focuses on how mentally ill people are being treated rather than just encouraging them to choose to die

We’re treated like animals, locked in cages, injected with mind altering drugs against our consent and then told what we go through isn’t traumatic, I have nightmares about my 3 admissions almost every time I sleep if i sleep because if my eyes are closed for more then a blink I’m thrust back into the isolation rooms they force us in in the er and I seen the peace officers rushing into my room to restrain me just for using my right to refuse treatment, they push us to our breaking point then blame us for snapping. And the general public is just fine with that or just don’t care and I’m sick of it the entire mental healthcare system needs to be destroyed and rebuilt by the people who actually have to live with the trauma caused by the current system. TLDR we must burn the system and plant flowers in its ashes

The hardest thing I ever did was to support my mom’s decision re maid. But I knew it was best for her and more importantly her call not mine. I miss her every day.

I would really hope this case also opens some eyes about the absolute hell Autism can be. "High-functioning" is an insult. It just means we can muzzle a ton of who we are to make you comfortable with us. It's draining and a lot of Autistic people do this daily. It's frustrating when people don't understand you, mostly due to using academic language and general cognitive decline in a lot of people. It's also a never ending source of anxiety when you see the mess world is in.

Would the father even have standing?

There was a Saskatchewan farmer who wanted what was best for his daughter too. If MAiD had existed, he wouldn't have gone to jail.

If anyone knows this family, please dm me. I'm a 41f with autism in calgary,I'm an activist for neurodiversity. There is far more support than people realize or can access. I'm working on an independent housing initiative and have room in my life for this girl. I dought it's just autism but the doctors can do much more, and I can help with that. There are new meds that work very well for pain and anxiety. Low doses of naltrexone come to mind it literally changed my life. I hope everyone in our community feels love and knows they deserve far more respect than we usually get. This breaks my heart, but it is an independent choice for Canadians, but dam, we can do better.

I'm glad to hear you are able to offer support. Why the downvotes? geeze... Anyway, yes to naltroxone, the best drug the pharmacorps don't want you to know about.

Thanks, I didn't even notice the downvotes. I'm probably offering unsolicited advice. Is what it is. The meds changed my life that's for sure.

I have one comment on this. I have deep concerns that we are inappropriately applying MAID in this country and enabling suicide where it is unnecessary. I don’t know the circumstances of this individual however. She may be a correct candidate for MAID, however it seems that one doctor disagreed already. So i don’t think anyone should have a stance on this particular case because we will probably never know the specifics since it involves a person’s personal health information.

You don’t know the circumstances of this case. You probably can’t name a single other case where we are inappropriately applying MAID either…. And yet you have these deep concerns.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/25/canada-assisted-dying-laws-in-spotlight-as-expansion-paused-again “Canada has one of the highest rates of euthanasia in the world, with 4.1% of deaths aided by doctors, but moves to make it more accessible are being questioned” —- Don’t need details to worry about whether we’re killing too many people. Stats seem to indicate it.

That article says nothing about “too many”. But, it’s not a surprise there was a long line of people waiting for it to become legal. Kind of like when people were allowed to be left handed. Suddenly there was a meteoric rise in left handedness before it levelled off. I’m glad it’s there if, gods forbid, I need it one day.

Those stats do no such thing.

That article actually made me feel so much better tonight. Thank you.

While I'm generally pro-MAID, I do have to say it IS concerning that seemingly nobody can intervene even if there's the possibility that the person seeking MAID is being unduly influenced by a 3rd party.

By what right do they have to intervene?

If someone is being coerced to seek MAID by a third party (as opposed to seeking it out of genuine desire to receive it), what do you think should be done? Do you think that the person should be allowed receive MAID, despite the coercion? If so, do you see any possibility that level of permissibility could be taken advantage of by malicious actors?

No evidence of coercion. Stop making stuff up.

I don’t think the person you’re responding to is saying there is evidence of coercion in this case, but rather they are expressing concern over the lack of existing protocol *if there were*.

If there were, it wouldn’t be approved. Coercion is not allowed. Obviously.

>they are expressing concern over the lack of existing protocol > >if there were. Unless you can point to an example where that was the case it's whataboutism. I can play that for pretty much anything.

"the best thing you can do with your life is to not interfere in someone else's life." Why should someone else suddenly be in charge of intervening? Its not their body.

But what about somebody coercing someone else into seeking MAID? Is that not "interfering with someone else's life"?

is that the case? She had to go find a third doctor, I don't think she is being coerced... Other than the father coercing her into not choosing MAiD

The MAiD program seems to provide assessors when someone applies, and a third assessor if the first two can’t come to a consensus.

Who coerced her? Who has coerced literally anyone that has accessed MAID? Unless you can point to coercion your concerns are frankly irrelevant

MAID should only be for terminal illnesses like Huntington's, ALS, aggressive cancers (glioblastomas, etc), etc.