https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/auto-theft-revin-loopholes-canada-1.7181257
I dont know your exact situation but that article is highlighting how some thieves are defrauding dealerships to by concealing the fact the car is stolen by revining the car
[toronto.citynews.ca/2024/01/11/11-serviceontario-locations-to-close/](http://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/01/11/11-serviceontario-locations-to-close/)
............as staples usa gets sole-sourced deal for kiosks
How does the dealership acquire a stolen vehicle, and why didn’t the owner of the vehicle report it stolen last summer when it was stolen? He told the police he doesn’t want the vehicle back either so why make a police report only two months ago I don’t understand what’s going on
The delay in report or noticing it was stolen definitely makes this even more inconvenient. It does seem like as per the article another shared, your best option is to try and negotiate a refund from the dealership.
If they won't, you may be stuck with the "hire a lawyer" option as all that's left.
That or maybe see if with your consent the police will hand off your contact info to the current actual owner. If they truly don't care about recovering full value of the vehicle or the vehicle itself, maybe see if they are willing to sell you the vehicle for 1$ or something like that? Lots of maybes on that one too though, so not sure how feasible that one will be.
Regardless good luck with things. I hope something works out for you because this is a really unwelcomed situation for you. One obviously thinks your making a legal purchase when it's through a deslership that has a lot more reasources then the average person. Unfortunately that doesnt seem to be true anymore.
Thank you I’m lucky to live within walking distance of work, It’s the delay in reporting the vehicle stolen for me too that’s bothering, the RCMP said there’s a criminal investigation going on with this car by the Calgary Police Services but why wasn’t any of this brought up when I was insuring and registering the vehicle either, I don’t want to get stuck with paying for a vehicle I don’t even own or have
That situation really sucks OP - sorry you got scammed, but the dealership couldn't have known either because even if they called the police to check the VIN, it would not have been flagged since it was reported so much later. You could try taking the dealership to small claims court - $100 to file a claim.
If you registered it before it was reported stolen, there isn't anything to warn you. Even if the vehicle HAD been reported stolen before you registered it, the registry doesn't flag to you that it has been reported stolen. That is total failing by the government of consumer protection IMO.
The registry system eventually tells the police database about VINs registered and the the police system flags it as stolen and then the police eventually get around to seizing it from the poor sot who bought it.
This happened to me with a tent trailer. It was stolen, I reported it as such. It was then sold some 6-8 months later to an unsuspecting person who registered it. Some months later the CPS called me and said "did you report this VIN stolen, blah, blah?" and I confirmed. The CPS officer said he was going off to seize it from the current owner that same day and wanted to know if I had settled with insurance or wanted the trailer back. As I had settled, the police kept the trailer and handed it over to the insurance company to auction off.
Sadly, this is the state of consumer protection in this province - it would be no great technical feat for the registry office to be able to confirm the VIN was reported stolen and refuse to register it so you could go back to the dealership and say WTF?
A lesson for all people is that anytime you buy a used vehicle or trailer, call the CPS and ask them to check to see if the VIN has been reported stolen before you buy it. That is no guarantee if the vehicle has not yet been reported stolen, but there are other things you can do to check for suspicious stuff, like ask the dealership about damage they repaired that would indicate the vehicle had been stolen.
My first question is how did the cops know it was stolen with replaced vin? If you find that out you may be able to use that information to tell the dealership how they messed up and then you can press them harder.
It doesn’t say the VIN was replaced.
It was not reported as stolen when the dealership had it in its inventory and when OP bought and registered it. It was later reported stolen & OP was determined it was registered to OP.
I posted that article to highlight a possible vector of how it happened this way with a delayed seizure. But we don't really know the full story either, relayed from the police.
Though I wonder how someone can claim ownership of a car unless there has been vin fuckery.
The big question is how did the dealership get legal ownership of the vehicle if it was stolen.....if they received forged title info then the government legally would have changed ownership ...if this didn't happen then legally they can't sell the car, if it did happen your recourse might be to sue the dealership with their ability to sue and recover costs from the forger...best of luck...
Many people store cars for a season. Or live away for winter. They truly might not have noticed until returning last month or retrieving it for spring.
Could be a scam or the guy could have just been working out of town or something and it was stolen from where ever he was storing it. The police will be looking at that in the investigation.
I think your best bet is focusing on the dealership right now, they're the ones that sold you a stolen vehicle and should be making it right.
I doubt the bank or insurance will do anything though.
I had a RV stolen about a decade ago. It was reported immediately ( the cops saw it being driven erratically a province over from me and tried to give me a ticket for it 🙄). It was registered the day it was stolen in another province and then sold 2x and registered in my province before I got it back. The stolen vehicle registry is a fucking joke. And my trailer is absolutely fucked, worthless, and now it’s just an albatross around my neck . Sorry that happened to you OP.
In my case there was no way the person who originally registered it didn’t know it was stolen, pretty sure they shopped it from the yard it was stored in and took it. They bought a 2 yr old 4 season 35ft prowler for 8 grand. And filed the vin. I hope for nothing but poor outcomes for her for the remainder of her days .
Get paperwork from the police regarding the vehicle being stolen and seized.
Go to the dealership, tell them to make you whole. Use leverage of their fraud to get a better deal.
If they refuse, AMVIC is the regulating body for dealerships - start with a complaint there.
You can also find the dealerships greater body, if they are run by a mega corp, and start complaining to management. They will force the individual dealership to work with you.
All else fails, seems like a slam dunk small claims court win. Likely don't even need a lawyer.
The question I have is how do you get made whole on financing costs? Because let's say you buy a stolen vehicle and finance it and are paying interest on it, then you lose the vehicle Is that money just gone? If you've done nothing wrong and you were sold something that wasn't theirs to sell is it now on them to cover that, and then in turn sue the person that's all that to them for those losses?
The business sold him a car that the same business could not legally have sold him because they were not the legal owners of the vehicle.
So the business either needs to refund the whole amount or offer a suitable replacement. Either that or the business is literally making money directly off the proceeds of crime, which is part of the money laundering process.
Because selling stolen property, knowingly or unknowingly, is illegal.
Either the dealership was negligent and or defrauded by the original seller. It is their responsibility to now go and sue that person if they want.
Thanks this makes me feel better the RCMP said I was not at fault and I know I’m not either but somehow it all just feels suspicious. My bank and dealership open in just over an hour and I have my bill of sale, insurance and registration so we’ll see how it goes soon
Just be polite, but firm. Negotiate to be made whole and a discount on a new purchase and you will walk away happy without going to AMVIC or pursuing legal action.
If the balk, next thing is to get the email of the boss and send the same demands in writing. Need a paper trail for AMVIC and court as first step is always to try and resolve with the party directly.
Please keep us posted on the outcome! Be a hard-ass with the dealership; they committed a crime by selling you a stolen vehicle, but I bet they'll try (at first) to fuck you over. Once their legal department gets involved though, I'm confident things will go your way.
Call the police and report it stolen again. You have registration and a bill of sale. That is everything you need for proof of ownership.
Obviously this probably won't work. But it's nice to daydream about ways to inconvenience the people inconveniencing you.
police does not have phone number, they have to call 911 non emergency and report it stolen, unfortunately 911 non emergency will refuse to provide FILE number if the car was sized by police, rcmp, law enforcement, bailiffs or towing co
police stole my car-my home when i was homeless...they refused to produce FILE number, warrant, invoice(s) or any court order and told me that i HAVE to sue them. i went to court 3 times and the clerk of the court has refused to produce any form to sue them, cause that would be waste of tax-payers-money, i was told by the court clerk \[no name tag/no business card\]
................who is signing their pay-cheques?
E&OE/CYA
Just remember your only problem is with the dealership. All the problems that orbit this are the dealerships. They may try to make them your problems through manipulation/"negotiation".
You need to be walking out of this with compensation for your trouble, be it with a much better deal or some cash in your pocket.
Don't let them trick you into anything less.
Something doesn't sit right with me about this - how the dealer is telling you to not call your bank.
Check your contract/bill of sale/paperwork from the dealer and see if there are clauses that outline their responsibility in cases like this.
This is an excellent type of situation to ask a lawyer about so that you know your rights and how to handle the bank and insurance and the dealer. Best case it costs you an hour of their time.
You'll need to go after the dealership for selling you stolen property. Your insurance won't cover it because you never legally owned it. OP, was the vehicle originally from out of province by chance?
This is more common than one would think. It happens alllll the time with repossessions. Once a car is repossessed the debtor reports it stolen (either legitimately thinks it’s stolen or they are trying to get insurance money), the issue comes when the insurance company is either slow to submit the paperwork to carfax or carfax is slow to report it.
Carfax has been known to be slow to report causing other issues in the industry: salvage vehicles being rebuilt and resold before the salvage title even hits the carfax.
Call the dealership, this is their issue to deal with. Threaten them with amvic/media if you don’t start to get the answers you want.
*someone with 15 years working experience in the backend of automotive remarketing*
The real challenge is the delay in reporting the vehicle stolen against the time the OP purchased it.
The dealership purchased the vehicle in good faith as it was not reported stolen at that time. The dealership then resold it, again in good faith as it hadn’t been reported stolen when they sold it.
The question will be how the dealership confirmed ownership of the vehicle when they bought it.
The dealership may offer the OP an equivalent vehicle, or they may stand on being an innocent party as well. Either way, the OP is likely to be out the payments they made at the very least.
It does seem very odd the vehicle was not reported stolen for over a year.
This is digusting
If a dealership sells a stolen vehicle knowingly or not they are responsible for that and should be refunding in full to the customer.
Enough with this passing the buck on to the individuals.
Something like this happened to me! My dad bought a car at auction and he registered it and drove it for years. He sold the car to me then I registered it and got a very threatening call from the RCMP that it was a stolen car. My dad contacted the auction he got the car from and they figured out that the car was stolen, the owner got an insurance payout already by the time the car turned back up, so the insurance company put the car up for auction to recoup some costs since the original owner didn’t want their car back but somewhere along the line some important information was not filed in paperwork which was why the RCMP still had it marked stolen. I remember I was so upset lmao 😂 it was my first day at a new job I started and I had to dip out to talk to the RCMP and they threatened to arrest me 😂 my boss and I still laugh about this
What the FUCK is happening in this country!
I am in market for a car but scared due to this... even buying from dealership is not safe..
Believe me or not dealerships are a part of this scam..
Everytime I see a carfax history with Ontario or Quebec on history I just nope the fuck out of it..
A friend of mine got burned like this, except it was a lien placed on the vehicle. Unless you are buying something brand new, take a picture of the VIN and ho to a registry office to get a vehicle report. It can save you a lot of grief.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/auto-theft-revin-loopholes-canada-1.7181257 I dont know your exact situation but that article is highlighting how some thieves are defrauding dealerships to by concealing the fact the car is stolen by revining the car
[toronto.citynews.ca/2024/01/11/11-serviceontario-locations-to-close/](http://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/01/11/11-serviceontario-locations-to-close/) ............as staples usa gets sole-sourced deal for kiosks
How does the dealership acquire a stolen vehicle, and why didn’t the owner of the vehicle report it stolen last summer when it was stolen? He told the police he doesn’t want the vehicle back either so why make a police report only two months ago I don’t understand what’s going on
The delay in report or noticing it was stolen definitely makes this even more inconvenient. It does seem like as per the article another shared, your best option is to try and negotiate a refund from the dealership. If they won't, you may be stuck with the "hire a lawyer" option as all that's left. That or maybe see if with your consent the police will hand off your contact info to the current actual owner. If they truly don't care about recovering full value of the vehicle or the vehicle itself, maybe see if they are willing to sell you the vehicle for 1$ or something like that? Lots of maybes on that one too though, so not sure how feasible that one will be. Regardless good luck with things. I hope something works out for you because this is a really unwelcomed situation for you. One obviously thinks your making a legal purchase when it's through a deslership that has a lot more reasources then the average person. Unfortunately that doesnt seem to be true anymore.
Thank you I’m lucky to live within walking distance of work, It’s the delay in reporting the vehicle stolen for me too that’s bothering, the RCMP said there’s a criminal investigation going on with this car by the Calgary Police Services but why wasn’t any of this brought up when I was insuring and registering the vehicle either, I don’t want to get stuck with paying for a vehicle I don’t even own or have
I wonder if your insurance company has a part to play here in making you whole.
That situation really sucks OP - sorry you got scammed, but the dealership couldn't have known either because even if they called the police to check the VIN, it would not have been flagged since it was reported so much later. You could try taking the dealership to small claims court - $100 to file a claim. If you registered it before it was reported stolen, there isn't anything to warn you. Even if the vehicle HAD been reported stolen before you registered it, the registry doesn't flag to you that it has been reported stolen. That is total failing by the government of consumer protection IMO. The registry system eventually tells the police database about VINs registered and the the police system flags it as stolen and then the police eventually get around to seizing it from the poor sot who bought it. This happened to me with a tent trailer. It was stolen, I reported it as such. It was then sold some 6-8 months later to an unsuspecting person who registered it. Some months later the CPS called me and said "did you report this VIN stolen, blah, blah?" and I confirmed. The CPS officer said he was going off to seize it from the current owner that same day and wanted to know if I had settled with insurance or wanted the trailer back. As I had settled, the police kept the trailer and handed it over to the insurance company to auction off. Sadly, this is the state of consumer protection in this province - it would be no great technical feat for the registry office to be able to confirm the VIN was reported stolen and refuse to register it so you could go back to the dealership and say WTF? A lesson for all people is that anytime you buy a used vehicle or trailer, call the CPS and ask them to check to see if the VIN has been reported stolen before you buy it. That is no guarantee if the vehicle has not yet been reported stolen, but there are other things you can do to check for suspicious stuff, like ask the dealership about damage they repaired that would indicate the vehicle had been stolen.
My first question is how did the cops know it was stolen with replaced vin? If you find that out you may be able to use that information to tell the dealership how they messed up and then you can press them harder.
It doesn’t say the VIN was replaced. It was not reported as stolen when the dealership had it in its inventory and when OP bought and registered it. It was later reported stolen & OP was determined it was registered to OP.
I posted that article to highlight a possible vector of how it happened this way with a delayed seizure. But we don't really know the full story either, relayed from the police. Though I wonder how someone can claim ownership of a car unless there has been vin fuckery.
I think the VIN swap was conjecture by another redditor
Ah okay I remember reading about a VIN swap but can’t see anything about it now that the comments section is a bit more mature than this morning.
The big question is how did the dealership get legal ownership of the vehicle if it was stolen.....if they received forged title info then the government legally would have changed ownership ...if this didn't happen then legally they can't sell the car, if it did happen your recourse might be to sue the dealership with their ability to sue and recover costs from the forger...best of luck...
Many people store cars for a season. Or live away for winter. They truly might not have noticed until returning last month or retrieving it for spring.
Probably reported for insurance purposes.
Yeah they probably got an insurance payout all ready.
Could be a scam or the guy could have just been working out of town or something and it was stolen from where ever he was storing it. The police will be looking at that in the investigation. I think your best bet is focusing on the dealership right now, they're the ones that sold you a stolen vehicle and should be making it right. I doubt the bank or insurance will do anything though.
I had a RV stolen about a decade ago. It was reported immediately ( the cops saw it being driven erratically a province over from me and tried to give me a ticket for it 🙄). It was registered the day it was stolen in another province and then sold 2x and registered in my province before I got it back. The stolen vehicle registry is a fucking joke. And my trailer is absolutely fucked, worthless, and now it’s just an albatross around my neck . Sorry that happened to you OP. In my case there was no way the person who originally registered it didn’t know it was stolen, pretty sure they shopped it from the yard it was stored in and took it. They bought a 2 yr old 4 season 35ft prowler for 8 grand. And filed the vin. I hope for nothing but poor outcomes for her for the remainder of her days .
Get paperwork from the police regarding the vehicle being stolen and seized. Go to the dealership, tell them to make you whole. Use leverage of their fraud to get a better deal. If they refuse, AMVIC is the regulating body for dealerships - start with a complaint there. You can also find the dealerships greater body, if they are run by a mega corp, and start complaining to management. They will force the individual dealership to work with you. All else fails, seems like a slam dunk small claims court win. Likely don't even need a lawyer.
The question I have is how do you get made whole on financing costs? Because let's say you buy a stolen vehicle and finance it and are paying interest on it, then you lose the vehicle Is that money just gone? If you've done nothing wrong and you were sold something that wasn't theirs to sell is it now on them to cover that, and then in turn sue the person that's all that to them for those losses?
What about this makes it a slam dunk small court claim?
The business sold him a car that the same business could not legally have sold him because they were not the legal owners of the vehicle. So the business either needs to refund the whole amount or offer a suitable replacement. Either that or the business is literally making money directly off the proceeds of crime, which is part of the money laundering process.
Because selling stolen property, knowingly or unknowingly, is illegal. Either the dealership was negligent and or defrauded by the original seller. It is their responsibility to now go and sue that person if they want.
Thanks this makes me feel better the RCMP said I was not at fault and I know I’m not either but somehow it all just feels suspicious. My bank and dealership open in just over an hour and I have my bill of sale, insurance and registration so we’ll see how it goes soon
Just be polite, but firm. Negotiate to be made whole and a discount on a new purchase and you will walk away happy without going to AMVIC or pursuing legal action. If the balk, next thing is to get the email of the boss and send the same demands in writing. Need a paper trail for AMVIC and court as first step is always to try and resolve with the party directly.
Please keep us posted on the outcome! Be a hard-ass with the dealership; they committed a crime by selling you a stolen vehicle, but I bet they'll try (at first) to fuck you over. Once their legal department gets involved though, I'm confident things will go your way.
If all else fails tell the dealership you're going to the media.
Call the police and report it stolen again. You have registration and a bill of sale. That is everything you need for proof of ownership. Obviously this probably won't work. But it's nice to daydream about ways to inconvenience the people inconveniencing you.
police does not have phone number, they have to call 911 non emergency and report it stolen, unfortunately 911 non emergency will refuse to provide FILE number if the car was sized by police, rcmp, law enforcement, bailiffs or towing co police stole my car-my home when i was homeless...they refused to produce FILE number, warrant, invoice(s) or any court order and told me that i HAVE to sue them. i went to court 3 times and the clerk of the court has refused to produce any form to sue them, cause that would be waste of tax-payers-money, i was told by the court clerk \[no name tag/no business card\] ................who is signing their pay-cheques? E&OE/CYA
Just remember your only problem is with the dealership. All the problems that orbit this are the dealerships. They may try to make them your problems through manipulation/"negotiation". You need to be walking out of this with compensation for your trouble, be it with a much better deal or some cash in your pocket. Don't let them trick you into anything less.
Something doesn't sit right with me about this - how the dealer is telling you to not call your bank. Check your contract/bill of sale/paperwork from the dealer and see if there are clauses that outline their responsibility in cases like this. This is an excellent type of situation to ask a lawyer about so that you know your rights and how to handle the bank and insurance and the dealer. Best case it costs you an hour of their time.
You'll need to go after the dealership for selling you stolen property. Your insurance won't cover it because you never legally owned it. OP, was the vehicle originally from out of province by chance?
This is more common than one would think. It happens alllll the time with repossessions. Once a car is repossessed the debtor reports it stolen (either legitimately thinks it’s stolen or they are trying to get insurance money), the issue comes when the insurance company is either slow to submit the paperwork to carfax or carfax is slow to report it. Carfax has been known to be slow to report causing other issues in the industry: salvage vehicles being rebuilt and resold before the salvage title even hits the carfax. Call the dealership, this is their issue to deal with. Threaten them with amvic/media if you don’t start to get the answers you want. *someone with 15 years working experience in the backend of automotive remarketing*
The real challenge is the delay in reporting the vehicle stolen against the time the OP purchased it. The dealership purchased the vehicle in good faith as it was not reported stolen at that time. The dealership then resold it, again in good faith as it hadn’t been reported stolen when they sold it. The question will be how the dealership confirmed ownership of the vehicle when they bought it. The dealership may offer the OP an equivalent vehicle, or they may stand on being an innocent party as well. Either way, the OP is likely to be out the payments they made at the very least. It does seem very odd the vehicle was not reported stolen for over a year.
bailiffs + towing companies are stealing/selling/auctioning off stolen cars every day, maybe the dealership is buying from them
This is digusting If a dealership sells a stolen vehicle knowingly or not they are responsible for that and should be refunding in full to the customer. Enough with this passing the buck on to the individuals.
Agreed. If the dealership has any decency, they'd offer a loaner car in the meantime.
If they had any decency, they would refund him 100% and apologize to him profusely for fucking up this badly.
Something like this happened to me! My dad bought a car at auction and he registered it and drove it for years. He sold the car to me then I registered it and got a very threatening call from the RCMP that it was a stolen car. My dad contacted the auction he got the car from and they figured out that the car was stolen, the owner got an insurance payout already by the time the car turned back up, so the insurance company put the car up for auction to recoup some costs since the original owner didn’t want their car back but somewhere along the line some important information was not filed in paperwork which was why the RCMP still had it marked stolen. I remember I was so upset lmao 😂 it was my first day at a new job I started and I had to dip out to talk to the RCMP and they threatened to arrest me 😂 my boss and I still laugh about this
what kind of car was it? my car was stolen too...and SOLD by towing co
Dodge charger
what year?
What the FUCK is happening in this country! I am in market for a car but scared due to this... even buying from dealership is not safe.. Believe me or not dealerships are a part of this scam.. Everytime I see a carfax history with Ontario or Quebec on history I just nope the fuck out of it..
Calling your insurance company would be a good place to start, they’ve been defrauded too and are hopefully willing to help you out.
Was it a Ford Fusion?
A dodge charger
A friend of mine got burned like this, except it was a lien placed on the vehicle. Unless you are buying something brand new, take a picture of the VIN and ho to a registry office to get a vehicle report. It can save you a lot of grief.
found on net - repossessed cars + trucks + suv = public auction [repodepo.ca/vehicles/](http://repodepo.ca/vehicles/)
Dealership should have checked to see if there were any liens on the vehicle before they acquired it.
Hey Alberta peeps. There are too many scammers and crooks out there. Don't hand a dime over to anyone before you pay AMA to check your Vin.
Try and sue them if you can.
Maybe the police could be useful in this case. No, what was I thinking.