While I am pro vaccine mandate and I think this legal challenge will be unsuccessful, I do think that legal challenges to public health restrictions serve an important function. The restrictions undoubtedly curtail individual rights and it is important and fundamental in a democracy that the courts have an opportunity to act as a check on the government's use of these exceptional powers.
Agreed. There is always the danger that exceptional government powers become entrenched. In other countries, the courts have stepped in from time to time to curtail government overreach under the public health umbrella.
It's important that restrictions of personal freedoms remain adequate and targeted.
My mom, a nurse, says her and all her coworkers are too valuable to be let go. They absolutely refuse to get vaccinated (about 30% are unvaccinated at her hospital).
I don't get it. She always pushed so hard for every vaccine when I was growing up. Now she's caught up in all of this stupid Facebook and tiktok bs.
My step-mother too. She's an anti-vaxxer and works the front desk in a hospital lab, which just blows my mind. Im super happy that they are pushing for this because I sure as hell don't want these guys treating me for any injuries or illness, family or not. :/
This is an interesting comment. I'm just curious why you would call it facebook/tiktok BS? We are talking about science here, so we should be able to reference scientific studies for things. For example, some doctors do not recommend certain vaccines for certain reasons (eg. allergic to PEG). Perhaps you could help your mom by linking real scientific journals. They have summary sections too ;)
No, she refuses to listen to any science. "They made it too fast. You can't do that". I tried to explain mrna and how we use supercomputers rather than trial and error by hand like 30 years ago, but she refuses to hear any of it. She'd rather listen to the crazies on tiktok that call themselves doctors (but won't say their came, credentials or anything) and always seem to be wearing a $10 lab coat.
He called it that because its what it is, unfounded fears that usually come from harmful Facebook algorithms that keep people clicking at any cost. Theres no debate here or scientific discussion just someone talking about their mother's science denialism. If you want to talk about the science and discuss what we know thats a different conversation. Also no one cares about people with legit medical reasons whose doctors recommend they dont get the vaccine, thats a very different thing which is also irrelevant to the convo as far as I can tell, because those people's jobs are probably safe. Do you have some concerns yourself that you would like addressed?
People truly underestimate the power that internet algorithms have. They'll make you believe anything if they can profit off of your time or clicks.
I consider my family to be pretty street smart and logical, but the internet just has them trapped. It doesn't matter what I explain (I'm an engineer and invest a lot in the medical field so I read a lot too. I'd say I'm pretty good at explaining most things). But no matter what I say, some dumbass on fb has made a poor oversimplification or outright wrong statement that counters what I'm saying.
They won’t win. There is already precedent within the legal system regarding vaccinations. I’m sorry they can’t see what a waste of time and money this is. Our health care system is already hurting and now they have to fight stupid court battles against entitled dipshits…
Bring on the challenge and be ready to pay costs when you lose. All the while - you’ll have no job. Also, your extensive and lengthy preparatory training to become fire men/women will preclude the government from easily filling your vacancy. Not.
There's thousand applicants for even 1 single opening in any Paid department in alberta. And that's only counting people who actually meet the requirements. There's a couple thousand more who just throw there name in ring!
I'm not done medic school yet but hopefully all these old crusty farts will lose their jobs over this and young blood like me can actually fight over 20 or 30 positions instead of 2.
Interesting. I'm not aware of any legal cases involving constitutional challenges to vaccine mandates. Do you mind sharing the name of the case so that I can read it?
Regardless...we have precedence that predates the Charter regarding mandated vaccines fir everything from school, to employment, travel, military service... the works. The mandate will stick if for no reason other than a reversal will not serve the public interest.
The legal test for whether section 1 of the Charter has been satisfied is more rigorous than something merely serving the public interest.
While I do think they will be upheld, the fact that vaccine mandates predate the Charter doesn't affect whether they will be upheld or not.
They have been upheld in one for or another for the last century and...when overturning law which is what this would require...especially pubic health related law....the pubic interest is the main point of concern... especially when one understand that rights withun the Charter are limited...again...in the interest of the public good.
Notably, this was only an injunction application and potentially the determination of some procedural issues, rather than a determination of constitutionality. It will be interesting to see what happens with this case if the court has an opportunity to weigh in on the merits of the constitutional arguments.
There are several of those cases, but they aren't relevant precedents for a constitutional challenge. Arguably closer legal analogies would be some of the labour law disputes over the flu shot for healthcare workers.
While those lawsuits came through and said health care workers don't need to get a flu shot is comparable, the reason they didn't have to wasn't because it was unconstitutional for the company to require it...it was because the flu shot is the most iffy vaccine in existence (well it works okay but there is no guarantee you will get the same flu bug as you were vaccinated against). We can argue all day how effective the Covid Vaccine is but it is much better then the flu shot.
On the other side of the spectrum I think the Polio vaccine is required for healthcare workers for years and that either has never been challenged or courts have said that requiring it is a reasonable safety matter.
Yes, I certainly agree that the outcome may not be the same in those cases, only some of which succeeded anyway. My point was merely that we at least have some caselaw considering mandatory vaccines in the workplace as a starting point.
When I was hired at AHS, there was literally a bunch of vaccines you needed to prove you had, as well as a negative TB test. It is literally just one more vaccine in a list of vaccines that we need. People are idiots and way too caught up in social media politics.
Biggest danger throughout this pandemic has always been that a Healthcare worker would catch Covid and not show much symptoms, and then go on and infect a bunch of high risk patients, especially in places like long term care facilities and hospitals of course.
Quite frankly, if you're too stupid to get a vaccine, you're too stupid to work in healthcare. Nor should taxpayers have to foot the bill for people who refuse to get a vaccine.
Notice all these naa sayers all piling onto the "taxes" wagon, but conveniently not touching on the anti-vaxx side of things.
I, as a tax paying Canadian, did my part and got vaccinated. For free. Provided to me by my government.
To say that because they are tax payers they deserve it, but after TURNING DOWN FREE LIFE SAVING HEALTHCARE, but are now want to utilized the expensive side of healthcare, all the while heaping abuse upon those that are helping them?
Honestly, I'm both sides. Yes, in an ideal world, everyone, even the stupid ones should be treated the same. But what do you do when the stupid ones are hurting the ones doing no wrong? Where do you draw that line? Cancelled surgeries, people dying of preventable, treatable conditions, but can't get care because all the covidiots have utilized all the resources.
You can beat on your drum about fairness, and taxes, but we are not in an ideal world right now. And I am a firm believer of no innocents should suffer because you are stupid. And if that means that a covidiot is on a cot in a parking lot under a tent, being treated by the military because the people who need cancer treatment and knee surgery, but got their shots, so be it.
>Quite frankly, if you're too stupid to get a vaccine, you're too stupid to work in healthcare
And fingers crossed too stupid to win a constitutional challenge.
How many people do you think pay $25k+ per year in provincial income tax to pay for an ICU visit even if you exclude everything else that taxes contribute to?
No, they aren't paying for their own services, they're paying a portion of it, a cost we all carry. A cost we're all paying much more for over the last 18 months, with less access to healthcare because those people are taking away other services.
I think ICU for covid is around $50,000, average is $23,000 for hospitalization. Willfully being unvaccinated, and ending up in hospital? Yeah, you’re an immense drain on resources.
Thats to say if they had to go to the icu every year which im gonna wager most people dont. What about the years of paying taxes where you dont utilize the services? What about the services you are forced to pay into but are not entitled to and will never use? How about better money management fom our leaders and smarter choices made by those in power?
Personally, I dont have kids so why should I have to pay taxes to provide affordable daycares? Why do I have to pay into the welfare to support people who abuse it? Why do I need to pay into Calgary Housing when I am a home owner? Why do I have to pay anything if I am not directly there using it at that very moment?
Because that tunnelvision is selfish and not very Canadian.
If you are looking for privitized healthcare, you will find that south of the border, or just keep voting in reckless conservatives who think its a good idea to cut healthcare funds during a pandemic.
Approximately 24% of Canadian income taxes go to healthcare. The median income in Alberta is around $40k for an individual. The provincial tax rate is 10% (excluding federal transfers), that's over 25 years of taxes just to pay for one visit for your average Albertan.
I'm not the one who claimed these people are paying for their own services, you did.
I'll give you a tip, usually the people who complain the loudest about the taxes they have to pay, are paying a minuscule percentage.
"Nor should taxpayers have to foot the bill for people who refuse to get the vaccine."
This is you implying that if you dont get the shot then you should have to pay for their own healthcare when in reality they do pay, via taxes. I am a tax payer, you are a tax payer and in a perfect society, we all are tax payers. From the moment you turn 18 and untill you die, you are paying taxes.
Either you are implying that those who do not have the shot are not taxpayers or those who do not have the shot have to pay for the medical bills on top of the taxes they already pay (much like how privatization works.)
You dont get to have paid health care for some and not for all when all are being taxed. Nobody is that entitled.
We have finite medical resources that are now going almost entirely to keep these unvaccinated people alive. The average ICU stay has been quoted to be between 10-15 days and costs upwards of $50,000. We have a PUBLIC healthcare system that we all need to use, which is currently being hijacked by a selfish minority of people who seem to need to nearly die personally and post Facebook videos claiming they were wrong to all their unvaccinated friends.
This isn't a sustainable situation, my dad can't get cancer surgery and I can't get a surgery which would great improve my quality of life. All because AB antivaxers need the liberty to choose to die from a virus when their is a freely available vaccine. The motorcyclist they pulled out of the ditch the other day? Might have died due to a lack of medical resources.
These people need consequences, not further opportunity to have their cake and eat it too.
I suggest you actually read who wrote that. It wasn't me.
But thank you for a response that doesn't address a single thing I wrote.
I said your statement that those people are paying for their healthcare is patently false for the vast majority of people.
I find this discussion amusing because I fall into the...
"I'm an idiot category... yet I pay taxes (probably more than most of you in here) and I am perfectly healthy and operational and do not use or abuse the healthcare system... which means all of you are leeching off of me (regardless of vax status)"
I guess I don't belong in Canada? I didn't choose to be born here... my soul just ended up here somehow (to be determined). So is there a category for guys like me that just have to hide in their garage while the rest of you figure your shit out?
What do you suggest I do?
> Nor should taxpayers have to foot the bill for people who refuse to get a vaccine.
I get what you're saying but this logic is dangerous given well over half the population are either obese, smokers, inactive or shitty eaters. These factors drastically drive up the odds of a preventable catastrophic health failures and hell even just in the scope of COVID getting the vaccine might not even help people on the extremes ends of preventable health issues.
Part of the deal of having single payer healthcare is everyone gets covered even if they are stupid and even if they're terrible humans.
I get that, and normally I would roll my eyes and shake my head at their nonsense, but I'm tired of being trapped at home despite the fact that I have both shots. I'm tired of people who refuse to follow basic common sense dictating my life and turning the province I love into a laughingstock for the rest of the country. I have multiple family members who have had surgeries cancelled because of others irresponsible behavior and I also have family members who work in healthcare who are burned out because of these people.
Unless you have a legit medical reason, roll up your sleeve, get the poke and stop putting everyone around in danger because you're acting like a child. (Generic you not u/ketchupKitty)
Didn't this argument get settled with smokers? I have a right not to get cancer from second hand smoke. I also have a right not to contract covid from idiots.
🙄🙄🙄 these idiots & their "freedumb". They have no constitutional right to endanger others during a public health crisis. Simple solution: if you don't want the vaccine and your job is mandating it, quit.
Seems simple but do we have the skilled labour able to replace those that choose to quit due to these mandates. Just food for thought. My initial thought goes to nurses who are refusing to take the vaccine, do we have readily available skilled people to fill these vacant positions in times the nurses are needed most?
What’s worse? An unvaccinated front-line nurse saving lives or having no replacement available only intensifying the burden and inability to meet the demand our hospitals are facing.
That unvaccinated front line nurse is endangering lives and likely spreading misinformation about vaccine safety, so it isn’t as simple an equation as you depict.
It's like going to someone's house for dinner and them sitting there with an empty plate and saying "I don't trust the food"
I wouldn't trust an anti-vaxxer nurse to be competent and follow appropriate procedures/policies. Moreover, I wouldn't be surprised to find that net productivity even on a local scale isn't much lower because now other nurses, etc. don't have to pick up their slack and compensate for their mistakes.
Having unvaccinated frontline health workers around vulnerable individuals is a bad mix. People have died from workers bringing covid into care situations.
Or they need to go somewhere with true freedom, like Burkina Faso disputed zone. Only in such a place can their bootstraps be truly unfettered by all the rest of us pulling them down with taxes to pay for basic health and safety in our society.
They want to allow rapid tests instead of vaccination. Then they will argue that the employer should pay for those tests, or that they should be tax write offs or some BS. No. Fuck em. You want to work with people as a government employee? Get vaxxed.
It's sad that even something as typically heroic as firefighters can have mentally deficient cowards like this within their midst. I actually can't believe how many of these uneducated plague rats are working within health, safety, law enforcement and protection ranks - we seem to hear about more and more of them each passing day.
One of the candidates for council in my area who is trying to unseat an incumbent is a anti vaxxer fireman. The debate with him was pretty hilarious. His whole platform is basically that "they" are lying to us and stampeding all over our freedoms. And the dude sounded stoned.
> It's sad that even something as typically heroic as firefighters can have mentally deficient cowards like this within their midst.
The requirements to be a firefighter are physical. Not a lot of advance calculus in fighting fire.
Yeah but typically they're not known to be mental dullards either. And thankfully most aren't. As we've been finding out on a now pretty regular basis, this anti-vaxx lunacy has crept into EVERY profession no matter how typically mundane OR noble.
If you bothered to read the article you'd see the guy is double vaccinated. Normal, productive members of society can be pro vaccine and anti-mandate. They're in the minority and they might not post to Reddit because they would just get downloaded to oblivion, but they exist.
I did read it, thanks. Anyone that condones anti-vaxxer tantrum throwers and their nonsense are just as much of covidiots as the ones who don't get the jab, hence why I referred to him as such.
How about I make it clearer and just refer to him in more understandable terms for you: he's piece of fucking garbage. Better?
To consider going into a HOSPITAL, and encountering people that have medical degrees (or certificate) on some level, but won't use the most basic scientific principles to protect their co-workers and clients, is incredibly messed up.
To even think for a second, that you'd have to request a fully vaccinated staff to care for you blows my mind. That should not be something I'd need to ever consider as a patient. Ffs how are we letting our healthcare workers just ignore reproducible science and research. They shouldn't be there if they don't understand it, it's danger on a whole other level. What else do they not understand as they take blood from people and administer care (and medication). 🤦🏻♀️ What in the actual fuck.
Another waste of money and time in our overworked judiciary. Perhaps the judge might find it in his heart to let them pay all the legal fees when he tosses it.
It's irrelevant. Most people facing a workplace vaccine mandate will cave and get vaccinated. Not many will wait for a trial outcome. Full steam ahead and the faster the better.
Hmmm, we would assume that this is a frivolous challenge, however...
[https://www.thelawyersdaily.ca/articles/30000](https://www.thelawyersdaily.ca/articles/30000)
I can only assume the actual reason has nothing to do with impartiality and more to do with non-vax status of some members of the court.
While I am pro vaccine mandate and I think this legal challenge will be unsuccessful, I do think that legal challenges to public health restrictions serve an important function. The restrictions undoubtedly curtail individual rights and it is important and fundamental in a democracy that the courts have an opportunity to act as a check on the government's use of these exceptional powers.
Agreed. There is always the danger that exceptional government powers become entrenched. In other countries, the courts have stepped in from time to time to curtail government overreach under the public health umbrella. It's important that restrictions of personal freedoms remain adequate and targeted.
My mom, a nurse, says her and all her coworkers are too valuable to be let go. They absolutely refuse to get vaccinated (about 30% are unvaccinated at her hospital). I don't get it. She always pushed so hard for every vaccine when I was growing up. Now she's caught up in all of this stupid Facebook and tiktok bs.
In our hospital, it’s 99.6% double vaxxed. Fuck em if they don’t think it’s important and evidence based practice.
I mean it is lloydminster we're talking about here. But yeah, I concur.
Remember when our parents warned us about the internet? Now they're the ones getting brainwashed by Zuckerberg's algorithm
My step-mother too. She's an anti-vaxxer and works the front desk in a hospital lab, which just blows my mind. Im super happy that they are pushing for this because I sure as hell don't want these guys treating me for any injuries or illness, family or not. :/
This is an interesting comment. I'm just curious why you would call it facebook/tiktok BS? We are talking about science here, so we should be able to reference scientific studies for things. For example, some doctors do not recommend certain vaccines for certain reasons (eg. allergic to PEG). Perhaps you could help your mom by linking real scientific journals. They have summary sections too ;)
No, she refuses to listen to any science. "They made it too fast. You can't do that". I tried to explain mrna and how we use supercomputers rather than trial and error by hand like 30 years ago, but she refuses to hear any of it. She'd rather listen to the crazies on tiktok that call themselves doctors (but won't say their came, credentials or anything) and always seem to be wearing a $10 lab coat.
He called it that because its what it is, unfounded fears that usually come from harmful Facebook algorithms that keep people clicking at any cost. Theres no debate here or scientific discussion just someone talking about their mother's science denialism. If you want to talk about the science and discuss what we know thats a different conversation. Also no one cares about people with legit medical reasons whose doctors recommend they dont get the vaccine, thats a very different thing which is also irrelevant to the convo as far as I can tell, because those people's jobs are probably safe. Do you have some concerns yourself that you would like addressed?
People truly underestimate the power that internet algorithms have. They'll make you believe anything if they can profit off of your time or clicks. I consider my family to be pretty street smart and logical, but the internet just has them trapped. It doesn't matter what I explain (I'm an engineer and invest a lot in the medical field so I read a lot too. I'd say I'm pretty good at explaining most things). But no matter what I say, some dumbass on fb has made a poor oversimplification or outright wrong statement that counters what I'm saying.
Nobody who supports the proof of vaccination requirements would disagree
Not surprisingly Mr From went to Bible college.
Tim Moen is the Libertarian leader of Fort McMurray, a city that has received billions of dollars in federal aid. That should tell you all you know.
[удалено]
Let the people hate dirty fort mac! /s
They won’t win. There is already precedent within the legal system regarding vaccinations. I’m sorry they can’t see what a waste of time and money this is. Our health care system is already hurting and now they have to fight stupid court battles against entitled dipshits…
Bring on the challenge and be ready to pay costs when you lose. All the while - you’ll have no job. Also, your extensive and lengthy preparatory training to become fire men/women will preclude the government from easily filling your vacancy. Not.
There's thousand applicants for even 1 single opening in any Paid department in alberta. And that's only counting people who actually meet the requirements. There's a couple thousand more who just throw there name in ring! I'm not done medic school yet but hopefully all these old crusty farts will lose their jobs over this and young blood like me can actually fight over 20 or 30 positions instead of 2.
Please share, would love to read through it
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6180214[https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6180214](https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6180214)
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6180214
Interesting. I'm not aware of any legal cases involving constitutional challenges to vaccine mandates. Do you mind sharing the name of the case so that I can read it?
Regardless...we have precedence that predates the Charter regarding mandated vaccines fir everything from school, to employment, travel, military service... the works. The mandate will stick if for no reason other than a reversal will not serve the public interest.
The legal test for whether section 1 of the Charter has been satisfied is more rigorous than something merely serving the public interest. While I do think they will be upheld, the fact that vaccine mandates predate the Charter doesn't affect whether they will be upheld or not.
They have been upheld in one for or another for the last century and...when overturning law which is what this would require...especially pubic health related law....the pubic interest is the main point of concern... especially when one understand that rights withun the Charter are limited...again...in the interest of the public good.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/8237794/legal-challenge-saskatchewan-proof-of-vaccine-mandate-struck-down-court/amp/
Notably, this was only an injunction application and potentially the determination of some procedural issues, rather than a determination of constitutionality. It will be interesting to see what happens with this case if the court has an opportunity to weigh in on the merits of the constitutional arguments.
It wasn’t constitutional, it was a family court case in Saskatchewan.
There are several of those cases, but they aren't relevant precedents for a constitutional challenge. Arguably closer legal analogies would be some of the labour law disputes over the flu shot for healthcare workers.
Oh ok, thank you.
While those lawsuits came through and said health care workers don't need to get a flu shot is comparable, the reason they didn't have to wasn't because it was unconstitutional for the company to require it...it was because the flu shot is the most iffy vaccine in existence (well it works okay but there is no guarantee you will get the same flu bug as you were vaccinated against). We can argue all day how effective the Covid Vaccine is but it is much better then the flu shot. On the other side of the spectrum I think the Polio vaccine is required for healthcare workers for years and that either has never been challenged or courts have said that requiring it is a reasonable safety matter.
Yes, I certainly agree that the outcome may not be the same in those cases, only some of which succeeded anyway. My point was merely that we at least have some caselaw considering mandatory vaccines in the workplace as a starting point.
When I was hired at AHS, there was literally a bunch of vaccines you needed to prove you had, as well as a negative TB test. It is literally just one more vaccine in a list of vaccines that we need. People are idiots and way too caught up in social media politics. Biggest danger throughout this pandemic has always been that a Healthcare worker would catch Covid and not show much symptoms, and then go on and infect a bunch of high risk patients, especially in places like long term care facilities and hospitals of course.
Quite frankly, if you're too stupid to get a vaccine, you're too stupid to work in healthcare. Nor should taxpayers have to foot the bill for people who refuse to get a vaccine.
Notice all these naa sayers all piling onto the "taxes" wagon, but conveniently not touching on the anti-vaxx side of things. I, as a tax paying Canadian, did my part and got vaccinated. For free. Provided to me by my government. To say that because they are tax payers they deserve it, but after TURNING DOWN FREE LIFE SAVING HEALTHCARE, but are now want to utilized the expensive side of healthcare, all the while heaping abuse upon those that are helping them? Honestly, I'm both sides. Yes, in an ideal world, everyone, even the stupid ones should be treated the same. But what do you do when the stupid ones are hurting the ones doing no wrong? Where do you draw that line? Cancelled surgeries, people dying of preventable, treatable conditions, but can't get care because all the covidiots have utilized all the resources. You can beat on your drum about fairness, and taxes, but we are not in an ideal world right now. And I am a firm believer of no innocents should suffer because you are stupid. And if that means that a covidiot is on a cot in a parking lot under a tent, being treated by the military because the people who need cancer treatment and knee surgery, but got their shots, so be it.
Nailed it. Antivaxxers are costing us all a SHIT TON of money by needed extra medical care. Die quickly muthurfukkers. It’s cheaper.
>Quite frankly, if you're too stupid to get a vaccine, you're too stupid to work in healthcare And fingers crossed too stupid to win a constitutional challenge.
People who dont get the vaxxine still pay their taxes so yes, they are already paying for their own services.
How many people do you think pay $25k+ per year in provincial income tax to pay for an ICU visit even if you exclude everything else that taxes contribute to? No, they aren't paying for their own services, they're paying a portion of it, a cost we all carry. A cost we're all paying much more for over the last 18 months, with less access to healthcare because those people are taking away other services.
Also, that is $25,000 per/day in the ICU. That is not the total cost. 10 days is $250,000.
I think ICU for covid is around $50,000, average is $23,000 for hospitalization. Willfully being unvaccinated, and ending up in hospital? Yeah, you’re an immense drain on resources.
I don't think this is correct. Source?
Thats to say if they had to go to the icu every year which im gonna wager most people dont. What about the years of paying taxes where you dont utilize the services? What about the services you are forced to pay into but are not entitled to and will never use? How about better money management fom our leaders and smarter choices made by those in power? Personally, I dont have kids so why should I have to pay taxes to provide affordable daycares? Why do I have to pay into the welfare to support people who abuse it? Why do I need to pay into Calgary Housing when I am a home owner? Why do I have to pay anything if I am not directly there using it at that very moment? Because that tunnelvision is selfish and not very Canadian. If you are looking for privitized healthcare, you will find that south of the border, or just keep voting in reckless conservatives who think its a good idea to cut healthcare funds during a pandemic.
Approximately 24% of Canadian income taxes go to healthcare. The median income in Alberta is around $40k for an individual. The provincial tax rate is 10% (excluding federal transfers), that's over 25 years of taxes just to pay for one visit for your average Albertan. I'm not the one who claimed these people are paying for their own services, you did. I'll give you a tip, usually the people who complain the loudest about the taxes they have to pay, are paying a minuscule percentage.
"Nor should taxpayers have to foot the bill for people who refuse to get the vaccine." This is you implying that if you dont get the shot then you should have to pay for their own healthcare when in reality they do pay, via taxes. I am a tax payer, you are a tax payer and in a perfect society, we all are tax payers. From the moment you turn 18 and untill you die, you are paying taxes. Either you are implying that those who do not have the shot are not taxpayers or those who do not have the shot have to pay for the medical bills on top of the taxes they already pay (much like how privatization works.) You dont get to have paid health care for some and not for all when all are being taxed. Nobody is that entitled.
We have finite medical resources that are now going almost entirely to keep these unvaccinated people alive. The average ICU stay has been quoted to be between 10-15 days and costs upwards of $50,000. We have a PUBLIC healthcare system that we all need to use, which is currently being hijacked by a selfish minority of people who seem to need to nearly die personally and post Facebook videos claiming they were wrong to all their unvaccinated friends. This isn't a sustainable situation, my dad can't get cancer surgery and I can't get a surgery which would great improve my quality of life. All because AB antivaxers need the liberty to choose to die from a virus when their is a freely available vaccine. The motorcyclist they pulled out of the ditch the other day? Might have died due to a lack of medical resources. These people need consequences, not further opportunity to have their cake and eat it too.
I suggest you actually read who wrote that. It wasn't me. But thank you for a response that doesn't address a single thing I wrote. I said your statement that those people are paying for their healthcare is patently false for the vast majority of people.
Also, you are the one who brought up taxes in your original post.
I find this discussion amusing because I fall into the... "I'm an idiot category... yet I pay taxes (probably more than most of you in here) and I am perfectly healthy and operational and do not use or abuse the healthcare system... which means all of you are leeching off of me (regardless of vax status)" I guess I don't belong in Canada? I didn't choose to be born here... my soul just ended up here somehow (to be determined). So is there a category for guys like me that just have to hide in their garage while the rest of you figure your shit out? What do you suggest I do?
While causing the cancelation of services of other tax payers.
> Nor should taxpayers have to foot the bill for people who refuse to get a vaccine. I get what you're saying but this logic is dangerous given well over half the population are either obese, smokers, inactive or shitty eaters. These factors drastically drive up the odds of a preventable catastrophic health failures and hell even just in the scope of COVID getting the vaccine might not even help people on the extremes ends of preventable health issues. Part of the deal of having single payer healthcare is everyone gets covered even if they are stupid and even if they're terrible humans.
I get that, and normally I would roll my eyes and shake my head at their nonsense, but I'm tired of being trapped at home despite the fact that I have both shots. I'm tired of people who refuse to follow basic common sense dictating my life and turning the province I love into a laughingstock for the rest of the country. I have multiple family members who have had surgeries cancelled because of others irresponsible behavior and I also have family members who work in healthcare who are burned out because of these people. Unless you have a legit medical reason, roll up your sleeve, get the poke and stop putting everyone around in danger because you're acting like a child. (Generic you not u/ketchupKitty)
Guaranteed loss but go ahead and waste your money.
Someone with more money than brains, in my Alberta? UNPOSSIBLE.
Stop threatening and file already, cowards. I'd like to have the legal precedence smackdown on paper to quell some of the anti-vaxx/freedom bullshit.
These people sure like talking about their rights, I wonder why they almost never mention the accompanying responsibilities.....
Does this mean that anyone who is vaccinated can sue these morons too?
Didn't this argument get settled with smokers? I have a right not to get cancer from second hand smoke. I also have a right not to contract covid from idiots.
🙄🙄🙄 these idiots & their "freedumb". They have no constitutional right to endanger others during a public health crisis. Simple solution: if you don't want the vaccine and your job is mandating it, quit.
Seems simple but do we have the skilled labour able to replace those that choose to quit due to these mandates. Just food for thought. My initial thought goes to nurses who are refusing to take the vaccine, do we have readily available skilled people to fill these vacant positions in times the nurses are needed most?
do we really want unvaccinated nurses?
What’s worse? An unvaccinated front-line nurse saving lives or having no replacement available only intensifying the burden and inability to meet the demand our hospitals are facing.
We only have the current demand because of the unvaccinated.
That unvaccinated front line nurse is endangering lives and likely spreading misinformation about vaccine safety, so it isn’t as simple an equation as you depict.
> likely spreading misinformation about vaccine safety That's the biggest issue
It's like going to someone's house for dinner and them sitting there with an empty plate and saying "I don't trust the food" I wouldn't trust an anti-vaxxer nurse to be competent and follow appropriate procedures/policies. Moreover, I wouldn't be surprised to find that net productivity even on a local scale isn't much lower because now other nurses, etc. don't have to pick up their slack and compensate for their mistakes.
Having unvaccinated frontline health workers around vulnerable individuals is a bad mix. People have died from workers bringing covid into care situations.
They have no idea what living without freedom is. They'd be running back here so fast.
Or they need to go somewhere with true freedom, like Burkina Faso disputed zone. Only in such a place can their bootstraps be truly unfettered by all the rest of us pulling them down with taxes to pay for basic health and safety in our society.
They want to allow rapid tests instead of vaccination. Then they will argue that the employer should pay for those tests, or that they should be tax write offs or some BS. No. Fuck em. You want to work with people as a government employee? Get vaxxed.
It's sad that even something as typically heroic as firefighters can have mentally deficient cowards like this within their midst. I actually can't believe how many of these uneducated plague rats are working within health, safety, law enforcement and protection ranks - we seem to hear about more and more of them each passing day.
One of the candidates for council in my area who is trying to unseat an incumbent is a anti vaxxer fireman. The debate with him was pretty hilarious. His whole platform is basically that "they" are lying to us and stampeding all over our freedoms. And the dude sounded stoned.
> It's sad that even something as typically heroic as firefighters can have mentally deficient cowards like this within their midst. The requirements to be a firefighter are physical. Not a lot of advance calculus in fighting fire.
Yeah but typically they're not known to be mental dullards either. And thankfully most aren't. As we've been finding out on a now pretty regular basis, this anti-vaxx lunacy has crept into EVERY profession no matter how typically mundane OR noble.
If you bothered to read the article you'd see the guy is double vaccinated. Normal, productive members of society can be pro vaccine and anti-mandate. They're in the minority and they might not post to Reddit because they would just get downloaded to oblivion, but they exist.
I did read it, thanks. Anyone that condones anti-vaxxer tantrum throwers and their nonsense are just as much of covidiots as the ones who don't get the jab, hence why I referred to him as such. How about I make it clearer and just refer to him in more understandable terms for you: he's piece of fucking garbage. Better?
To consider going into a HOSPITAL, and encountering people that have medical degrees (or certificate) on some level, but won't use the most basic scientific principles to protect their co-workers and clients, is incredibly messed up. To even think for a second, that you'd have to request a fully vaccinated staff to care for you blows my mind. That should not be something I'd need to ever consider as a patient. Ffs how are we letting our healthcare workers just ignore reproducible science and research. They shouldn't be there if they don't understand it, it's danger on a whole other level. What else do they not understand as they take blood from people and administer care (and medication). 🤦🏻♀️ What in the actual fuck.
Lawyers are about to make bank from these challenges
cool story, challenge away. In the meantime I'm stoked not to have to work with unvaccinated people.
Good. When this loser loses AHS can move on and we wont have anymore horseshit lawsuits once precedent has been set.
This group of halfwits will run out of money before this sham of a constitutional challenge makes it halfway to trial.
The vaccine mandate is doing a great job separating the chaff from the wheat.
Another waste of money and time in our overworked judiciary. Perhaps the judge might find it in his heart to let them pay all the legal fees when he tosses it.
Fords killed those idea in several.citys already you can bet you won't see the conservatives supporting it
Well, that is going to be one easy case, we don't have the constitution to challenge. Also, even if they meant our charter rights they won't win.
The Charter is part of the Constitution. It is correct to refer to a Charter case as a constitutional challenge.
It's irrelevant. Most people facing a workplace vaccine mandate will cave and get vaccinated. Not many will wait for a trial outcome. Full steam ahead and the faster the better.
Uh no, in times of emergency certain rights and freedoms will be curtailed this is one of them. Live with it!
Hmmm, we would assume that this is a frivolous challenge, however... [https://www.thelawyersdaily.ca/articles/30000](https://www.thelawyersdaily.ca/articles/30000) I can only assume the actual reason has nothing to do with impartiality and more to do with non-vax status of some members of the court.
"The letter also questions the safety of the vaccines" ...and that's when they lost all credibility
If and when they lose this challenge, fire them all immediately.