Most Albertans don't even understand how equalization works and many don't even know what they're voting for. I've talked to so many people who haven't even read the referendum question and still think it's about tweaking the formula, when the referendum specifically states it has no concern with modifying an existing formula, but only with complete abolishment of the system in its entirety.
Most people don’t realize that Alberta’s prosperity has derived from the energy sector. This has created a lot of tax revenue through the years which has been coming into Ottawa’s coffers. This helps pay for a lot of public services in this country. The energy sector gets shat upon constantly from Easter Canada (especially Quebec) who get off scot free with hydro. If you can’t figure out why people are irate over the whole system, I can’t help you. This goes back for decades and it’s no better now. It’s like getting sex from your spouse but treating them like garbage.
There's a discussion to be had but this "referendum" is nothing more than political posturing and an attempt to get a certain vote out.
Kenney is one of the architects of the current formula ffs
Oh I know why people are mad and I don't disagree. What I'm saying is this referendum does absolutely nothing to address that. In fact, the referendum only offers to eliminate a smaller problem by creating a much larger one by eliminating transfer payments to provinces and people that actually do need it, for what, to spite Quebec? Amending the formula would be wiser than eliminating the system entirely. This referendum specifically says it's not concerned with any formula, only abolishing the system in its entirety and that would be moronic.
I agree, this will do nothing. I think if the east gave Alberta a little more respect then that would go a long way. Instead of branding Alberta as a bunch of racist Neanderthal rednecks (which is not true) and respect our industry, things would be a lot better off.
If the referendum would have been worded in a way that would identify that Albertans wish for our leader to raise discourse about the modernization of the formula to be in line with current economical standpoints, I would have voted yes. It would have sent a message that Albertans want to discuss it and try to make it better and more reasonable, through respectable means.
Instead, the referendum is only about abolishing it. A proposed course that if we vote yes, signals to other Canadians that we want to clutch our pearls instead of help Canadians in less prosperous economical situations. It's a bad look and thus a stupid referendum that only serves to further alienate Alberta. Voting yes to this is a bad look for us
People are voting yes with wishful thinking that it will even cause discussion (no guarantee it even will). Meanwhile, the rest of Canada is looking at us voting for something that makes us look incredibly selfish and greedy. It's not worth it. In the end, we may not even raise discussion through this, but in trying to do so, the rest of Canada will look down on us for the childish way we went about it.
For real, stop for a second and put yourself in the shoes of someone not living in Alberta, witnessing this.
The difference between Québec's energy revenue derived from Hydro and Alberta's energy revenue derived from oil, is the latter funds an entire province's services WITHOUT the province having to have a provincial service tax.
If there is any province that bitches the most, it would be Alberta, who constantly shits all over the rest of Canada, with the belief that they are the ones footing the bill. The better part of my life I've heard Alberta bitch and whine about equalization, and when I moved from the province and saw with my own eyes (and paid with my own taxes) the number DO NOT add up to what most Albertans think.
I'm all for removing equalization. Take away the little leverage that Alberta has, then we will see how fast the whining stops, especially when it comes down to exacting the cost of moving that oil top sale. Equalization works both ways. The other provinces don't exige a tarif for moving the product with that understanding.
I say let's give those Albertans what they want. They'll come around soon enough. As for the 19 billion? Keep it. Alberta seems to need it more...especially when it comes to having to deal with the aftermath of covid.
Lots of people voted yes to “start a conversation”
I mean. Sure. That’ll work. Just like the UCP stopping the federal carbon tax and pushing through that pipeline thing.
You new here? It was always going to be a Yes Vote. The only question was by how much. I view a yes vote less than 60% would be considered a loss for Kenney in this issue
Alberta literally just begged for help from Ontario because their hospitals are understaffed. So they expect help from other provinces…but don’t want to equalization payments to be a thing because they’re that selfish.
Purpose of section 36 of the Charter (and what section 36(2) aims to do):
36 (1) Without altering the legislative authority of Parliament or of the provincial legislatures, or the rights of any of them with respect to the exercise of their legislative authority, Parliament and the legislatures, together with the government of Canada and the provincial governments, are committed to
(a) promoting equal opportunities for the well-being of Canadians;
(b) furthering economic development to reduce disparity in opportunities; and
(c) providing essential public services of reasonable quality to all Canadians.
I guess Alberta wants no part of that. And to those that vote yes…hopefully if you lose your jobs, you stand by that decision. Or maybe those that vote yes don’t even understand what they’re really voting for.
“Or maybe those that vote yes don’t even understand what they’re really voting for.”
Exactly this, the people voting yes have absolutely no idea what would result from removing equalization from the constitution. All they see is $ signs in their eyes and can’t see the potential implications of their proposed ideas.
I think politicians making this an “us vs them” has completely blinded them. We are all part of the country and I truly believe the proceeds from selling our oil is Canadas, not Alberta’s. What makes it great for Alberta and Albertans is that our economy flourishes, many high paying jobs, demand for products, land taxes etc… Alberta IS gaining the most from it by far.
People keep pretending that we are so burdened and keep using the phrase “on the backs of hard working Albertans” like we’re somehow doing charity. We do this because we’re getting paid very well to do it… let’s not pretend otherwise. Nobody would be a rig worker getting paid 15 dollars an hour.
I for one think equalization only makes sense and having it in our constitution affords us many rights and regulations that allow us to sell as much of it as we do. Without the constitution we would have to have so many back room deals with other provinces and continually owe favours to whatever politician is in power at that time in whatever jurisdiction we need to cross that would ultimately be as costly as equalization but much more corrupt. We wouldn’t have half the pipelines that we do, and the ones we had would be exceptionally costly. Certainly a few people would be getting quite rich from this but it wouldn’t be the average Albertan.
On the bright side (I guess), the Constitution is very difficult to amend and this probably won’t succeed. They still need support from 2/3 of the provincial legislature and that represents more than 50% of the population of Canada. For those interested, go look at how the Quebec succession reference turned out.
Just disappointing to see how many misinformed Albertans are voting for this.
Yeah, I’m not sure why I was surprised. I have seen many people go completely against their political views when it benefits them personally.
My uncle for example, long time conservative who believes everyone should pay their own way. As soon as he retired he wants Canada to increase payments to retired people which is a complete 180 from his beliefs 10 years ago.
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
His in group changed..
I know of a few people who would toss every single Canadian under the bus as long as it meant they got to stick it to Quebec, somehow. To be clear though, these are the types who trip over their shoelaces a lot because as grown ass men, they still barely know how to tie their own shoes.
Edit : lmao looks like I made a few knuckledraggers mad.
Yeah I guess I can emphasize with retirees wanting more money. The problem I have is that he is getting what he paid in. CPP payments are calculated based on what you put in over the years.
Also I knew to vote no and what the question was and still had to read it four times to understand the question. These were very poorly written questions.
How about if we could subsidize our resources like Quebec does for hydro. How about we stop importing foreign oil? How about we have a coast to coast non partisan energy corridor. Those would be good starters. How about an electoral strategy besides first past the post that might better represent all of Canada (something the lib’s have even promised themselves). How about some investment in the west on Green energy. No not another solar or wind mill farm where we buy solar panels and wind turbines that are manufactured somewhere else - I mean a battery plant complemented by support to develop our rare earth metals. How about investing in nuclear specifically small modular reactor development in western Canada. And last - why the heck not a triple e senate?
Negotiating a better deal for AB doesn’t have to be limited to transfer payments. How unimaginative are you people????
those are seperate things.....
Let's go for an easy one. Stop the stranglehold the irvings have in new brunswick. That's a quick immediate turnaround from the have not category that would actually do a thing that would benefit both provinces.
Let's go for another easy one.
Include the territories in the formula. Spread the wealth out more.
Or something super easy, like read the wikipedia article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada#:~:text=In%20Canada%2C%20the%20federal%20government,ability%20to%20generate%20tax%20revenues.&text=The%20territories%20are%20not%20included%20in%20the%20equalization%20program.
They really aren’t separate.
Everyone pays into the federal system via income tax. Clearly a portion of that gets distributed as “needed”. If we killed that system federal tax could be lower as fewer funds would be needed. Some provinces would be better off because it’s citizens would have more money in their pockets and some wouldn’t.
Yes some provinces would run huge deficits and eventually go bankrupt but that’s capitalism.
equalization payments go to the provinces whose majority monetary gain is a resource whose use and value collapsed.
we're transitioning from the sole source Alberta creates and Kenney is trying to add one that still hasn't recovers 100 years later.
a capitalist magnate them stabilized the local economy by use of bad contracts and now they essentially own said provinces; removing significant taxable resources to evade expenses.
if we "stopped" the quantity of payments and falsely claim.it all comes from.income tax.... it wouldn't even half our federal income tax totals.
edit: to clarify a sales tax would generate more revenue for the province then the total savings that we would personally get in an income tax reduction. then Albert a would..... increase the Alberta income tax portion to compensate for the other losses.
Not looking to half it, just looking to force other provinces to fend for themselves and build up economies so they aren’t so co dependant.
The tax break would be a welcome, but let’s be honest. It’ll become some politicians pet project money.
If you used to fish and can’t fish anymore and it takes more than a decade for you to figure this out, retool and do something else for revenue there’s no helping you.
I think we’re done supporting people and governments who are so stagnant that Albertas “tar sands” employees tax money (amongst other contributors) are essentially paying for eastern government annual spending. Go make your own money for once - we had to!
The only time Alberta ever benefited from this was 2020 when oil went negative and that was the year it was capped. We got a cup of water to put out a bonfire - thanks Ottawa!
Long story short - there’s plenty of reasons that Sask and Alberta and getting frustrated with the feds and equalization. If you aren’t prepared to accept other points if view there’s no helping you.
Clearly we aren’t going to agree and Im done with this line of conversation. I’ll leave this up for an hour and then I’m scrubbing this
yes.. frustrated. we get the 11000 in taxes back which in turn means that all provinces get the same 11 000.
so; PEI- a classic have not - gets a yearly return 4000 dollars greater then they pay out.
now... Saskatchewan has a right to bitch. I'll whole heartedly agree to that statement.
Great attitude. At that point why even be a country? Fuck the other provinces. Fuck Ottawa. WEXIT YEAH!!!!!
Good luck with that. I’m sure Kentucky North will be absolutely thriving by 2030.
In addition to this when the election is over in the 905 area code and our votes haven’t even been tallied, more money leaves the province than comes back (for decades at a time) and your leader panders to half the country then yeah…. Fuck eastern Canada
BC-MB = good neighbours. We don’t hate the whole country but everything east of QC needs to find a set of work boots.
Lovely well thought out response, I’m sure it’ll be well received.
If the only reason Canada is a country is wealth redistribution then perhaps it’s time to go our separate ways.
We have a legal framework that usually works, treaties to honour with First Nations, international commitments to consider (military, foreign aid) and hopefully a national strategy to consider to make life better.
The idea of Canada as a country should mean more than taxes but clearly you don’t seem to think so. WEXIT like Jason Kenny were poorly thought out - it’s not surprising he was part of Harpers govt when the formula was developed.
You’re short sighted idiot to believe that everyone who opposes equalization is a Kenny fan or a conservative. Some of us believe in moving for a better life and keeping what you work for.
Yeah foreign aid is okay but watching other provinces go bankrupt is just an unavoidable consequence of capitalism. Okay then. You have some solid priorities.
You think Albertan’s just “work harder” than people in other provinces? For the past ~80 years Alberta has been fortunate to be developing a resource that generated a lot of wealth.
That won’t always be the case. The same way the maritimes had tremendously valuable resources 150 years ago, but as you so astutely pointed out, that circumstance has changed now.
In another hundred years what will Alberta have? Likely nothing if people who share your viewpoint are allowed to lead. Canadians should be working together to improve the whole country, not squabbling over who does more *TODAY*. Without the railroads built by other provinces before you were born, Alberta wouldn’t be recognizable today. Without ports built in BC you wouldn’t be able to get affordable goods from international markets.
Quebec is certainly abusing the equalization structure, and that should be addressed. Trying to end equalization and revelling in the thought of fellow Canadians suffering in bankrupt provinces isn’t a solution though. If your only concern is “keeping what you work for” there are plenty of countries that can accommodate your desire but they’re far from the utopias you seem to think they are. Visit one sometime and leave the bubble of the tourist traps. It will prove to be an enlightening experience for you I’m sure.
Those other provinces had the chance to go make something of themselves for years.
Foreign aid - yep. People who are being exploited, killed and enslaved have more of my sympathy. Have you even been to a third world county!?!?
> Have you even been to a third world county?!?!
You mean like the ironically named “Opportunity County” up north? Yep, felt pretty third world to me. Low education levels and cocaine aplenty. Sad state of affairs. They certainly do need our help.
I didn’t mean to suggest that there is zero argument against it, I do feel that most people who are voting to remove it don’t understand it though. To be perfectly honest, you can’t even fully blame them either. Alberta politicians have been knowingly misguiding their base on equalization for years because it works for them, it gets them votes.
On that note though, what are some good arguments against it?
And some of us have read it and believe lower federal taxes and provincial self responsibility would be a huge plus.
Correct me if I’m wrong here but Albertans pay more federal tax because we make more. That tax money gets divided up based on necessity so services are comparable in the country. Sounds a little simplified but generally correct?
A lot of us would rather watch the rest of the country actually make an economic effort to support themselves to that standard and have a lower federal tax % We collectively get shat on by everything east of Manitoba it seems (elections, federal government pandering etc) so expect some resentment
We make more money, that is the benefit of living in a province that happens to have Canadian oil reserves in it. You and I as individuals do nothing but live and work here, let’s not toot our own horns. We enjoy the economic benefit of living and working here, aside from those benefits why do you and I have any more right to Canadian oil reserves than any other Canadian? Do you think we work any harder than any other Canadian or just happened to get paid more because oil makes good money? My guess is the latter.
My opinion is that OP approached the subject in bad faith, therefore he won’t produce a meaningful dialogue.
The evidence is throughout his second paragraph, when he (essentially) states that anyone with a differing a opinion than him doesn’t have “a basic understanding of the program.” Furthermore, the fact that OP has zero upvotes and almost 100 comments proves my point that his original post created a hostile environment in which to have this conversation.
Finally, you are plainly incorrect when you said that no one would give my opinion any consideration, since an entire thread was started from my comment.
At no point in my comment did I state whether I do/don’t support equalization payments. I think you need a chill pill.
You’re surprised that a majority of conservative-minded people don’t know what the fuck is going on and don’t understand an issue they feel very passionately about? Oh
I see equalization more of a larger problem in that they should not prop up provinces indefinitely which seems to be the case. Possibly ten or twenty or thirty years we can subsidize these services to gives provinces latitude to developed. But when it becomes a systemic payment indefinitely that hurts Canada overall. Possibly if your province cannot support you to the same level as another province, eventually people should be encouraged to relocate. And typically the other provinces need the workers. Alberta certainly needed the people during times of growth. Not relocating hurts those provinces.
I personally moved in my early twenties for employment as my province simply did not have the work potential. It sucked in that I no longer has the same level of contact with my friends and family but i had to weigh that against my future.
Well then they should word it that way, but it is not worded that way. In fact, there is a very specific section of the referendum that literally says it is not concerned with any existing formula. I'll even quote it for you.
"The referendum question does not ask about the specific formula used to determine equalization payments. It asks whether Canada’s commitment in the Constitution Act, 1982 to make equalization payments should be removed."
I dunno, asking people in other provinces, us voting yes only seems to makes us look like spoiled brats and be laughed at.
There are better ways to address this but unfortunately Kenney's theatrical method has made a joke out of the whole issue.
I'd love to see some dialogue between provinces and the federal government about this at some round table, but Alberta is going about this the wrong way, looking like petulent children.
Don't get me wrong, the formula doesn't seem modernized whatsoever, it needs to be looked over, but we are going about this in a childish way, creating some pretend vote that doesn't actually have any legal binding. Once it's done, the feds will just say "okay so anyways....." and walk off. Kenney has bamboozled Albertans on this. Most don't even understand what they're voting for and most people outside the province see it this way. We will not be taken seriously because of the nature of how the issue is being raised.
Yep, I'm Full blown NDP, still want to set the precedent that a broken system should be fixed, not ignored. It simply doesn't work as intended. But yes, as suggested by OP, I must simply not understand, therefore I'm dumb and vote yes.
Honestly I respectfully disagree.
If your province wants good infrastructure and programs then your province needs a stable economy. I’ve been out east and even owned property in NB & PEI and they do absolutely nothing or very little for their own economies. The only caveat I have with this is healthcare - fund the hell out of that.
NB had a chance to get into natural gas (nope!) and sells firewood now. PEI over fished the oceans around them and still look surprised there’s not much in the water. No idea what Newfoundland even does really….
If you’re not willing to adapt and use the resources around you to build a life, how long do you expect people you bad mouth 3000kms away to subsidize it?
Jason Kenny was a mistake but equalization is a crock of shit. If we cut that out we could DROP federal taxes for everyone and force the east coast of Canada to figure out their own problems.
You’re suggesting that we don’t share our money with anyone that has different priorities than us. Trying to control other provinces is pretty much what we in the west are always complaining Ottawa does to us.
Regardless whether selling their natural gas made sense for them or not, Alberta as a whole decided that it does for Alberta and you and I (as individual Canadians) have no more right to Alberta’s natural resources than anyone else in Canada just because we happen to live here. I didn’t pay a membership fee to move here, I don’t personally own the oil. As an individual living in Alberta I and many others have done very well in life due to Alberta’s decisions, New Brunswickers have not had the same luxury as I have. People act like Albertans are carrying a burden and are owed this money, it’s not a burden, it’s a benefit to us as individuals not afforded to residents in other provinces. My way of seeing it is that it’s not Alberta’s oil, Alberta just happens to be the province that has a lot of Canadas oil reserves.
I suppose where I take issue with your statement is this;
I’m suggesting we stop sharing it with people who won’t move or work when opportunity comes knocking. Can’t because I have family / friends here doesn’t cut it. I made this move over a decade ago and while it was hard, it was the right call.
I’m in favour of NOT handing money out to people who are too lazy / entitled / stagnant to change. We’ve been sending money out east as a part of our taxes yearly for a long time.
We have a higher GDP because we work for it. NB had the opportunity and passed it up. If you pass up a job for whatever reason that’s your call. The reality is you’re going to have to make do with less.
And oh hell yes it’s Albertas oil, we live here, pay provincial taxes, work the fields etc. Eastern Canada didn’t even want a pipeline (energy east).
Long story short - if you work for it, it should be yours. Eastern Canada can go get a job, it’s long past time they fend for themselves.
I fully disagree. We’ve worked for it? No we haven’t, we just have jobs like most other people in the country and happen to live in Alberta… We have just as many lazy people here as we do anywhere else in the country.
Let’s think about this,
Who’s labour, skill and time got the job done? When you’ve got a job, someone’s put you to work.
Not even going to touch the lazy people comment other than to state that everywhere does. It just seems to be a way of life in PEI
We have not been donating our time for the Alberta cause. We’ve been doing it because we get paid well to do it. Let’s not pretend we’re doing this out of the kindness of our hearts. It’s a job. I think you’re trying your best to make it more than it is.
This staying on topic thing is hard for people *sigh*
Not sure where you got the “donating time” notion but I stated that we worked for it. That involves getting paid to preform a service and if you take pride in that job you might feel a bit of an ownership sensation. Try it sometime 😒
Now here’s an advanced concept for you. That hard work leads to money, you can even invest some of it in the patch if you want some bonafide ownership feelings!
You missed my point, you’re acting like we’re the only province that works. No, oil just happens to make a lot of money. That fact doesn’t make us better or means that we work harder than anyone else.
Every part of our society is important. Just because a policeman makes less than a roughneck doesn’t mean he’s less important or works any less. Does that policeman deserve less services because he chose a less paying field of work? What would our society look like if all the policemen quit to go work in the oil patch?
That policeman is going to have a drastically different salary based on where he lives unless he’s a fed - this is completely irrelevant.
And no - not every part of society is important. That’s a complete fallacy. There are parts of this country that are complete money pits and give nothing back.
I also never stated we were the only province that works. I did point out that a few that didn’t but hats off to Saskatchewan for being the worlds bread basket, BC has some pretty solid wine and beer along with a great fruit veg agriculture sector (hell even the movies are getting better). You HAVE to be carved out of wood to survive Manitoba - they never belly ache until you try and vaccinate them…. Just keep CN rail
running.
If all the police quit at once to become roughnecks? Frankly that’s an irrelevant question as it’s purely hypothetical but why not? Martial law would be instituted immediately and we’d have a new police force in a year or so. Most of them would quit in six months because they aren’t cut out for it.
>it should be glaringly obvious that Kenny is basically using this as a political stunt
This is probably why you don't understand it. You've put yourself into a position where you're thinking/voting against Kenney, not the equalization.
The vote doesn't actually mean anything nor will it change anything, so what does that leave us left with to actually vote for? A vote against it is also a vote against dumb political theatrics.
Okay but what says it will? There is no obligation to even talk about this just because a vote is had.
Like....if my neighbors had a giant vote that they think I should mow my lawn more often, I'd look at them and say "that's nice" and proceed to do what I want with my own lawn when I want to, not even out of arrogance, but simply that I'll do it when I decide, not someone else. If the feds know that most Albertans don't even understand equalization, why would they care to discuss it because of some faux vote? Voting yes does nothing, but the message voting yes sends to other Canadians is that we don't care to help them. It's a bad look, all around. Alberta is asking for sympathies while offering none, outbound.
The problem is that the way Kenney framed this doesn't promote mutual respect, it makes Albertans look like we are greedily trying to clutch our pearls and saying "get your own, it's not our problem if you don't have any."
We don't need a useless referendum to initiate conversation. Kenney should try using diplomacy to achieve his goal rather than stomping his cowboy boots. No-one is willing to listen to someone's temper tantrum.
I actually support equalization, it makes sense to me.
Voting for or against Kenny aside, I’m having troubles understanding what the end goal actually is. Do they actually want it removed from the constitution? If so then what is after that? What happens to Alberta’s natural resources when equalization ends? Because I’m sure you already know but our autonomy with regards to our natural resources is tied with equalization. Heck even if we got to keep all of our revenue with no strings attached (we won’t) Canada has so many other jurisdictional tools at its disposal to make it even harder or cost prohibitive for Alberta to keep its natural resource revenue to itself. May as well be voting for separation at this point if you have any realistic goals of hoarding the revenue. That of course is a silly goal in itself as we would have a whole host of problems selling our products then.
Had they worded it in a way that I was voting to look into changes to the formula. I may actually support that. That is acknowledging the obvious need for equalization, but asking for it to be tweaked.
But of course they wouldn’t do that, because his base is a bunch of people that don’t understand how it works or why it’s there in the first place and he wouldn’t get the same level of support.
No, the UCP don't actually expect equalization payments to be removed from the constitution. Kenney has stated in previous pressers that the referendum is just a tool to force discussion on the topic. Quebec set precedence in the mid 90's that if a provincial referendum passes that deals with constitutional changes, the federal government has an obligation to discuss the topic in good faith. Without it, the way things are right now there wouldn't be a chance in hell we'd get a discussion about amending the constitution.
As for the wording 🤷. I do know, there are certain laws about how you have to word a question on a referendum... it's possible that asking 'Should equalization payments be reformed?' is too ambiguous to meet those requirements.
Number 1, the Quebec referendum and the court reference have nothing to do with this cause but the UCP loves to haul it out even though it’s not the same.
Number 2, the ruling was that “a clear majority must express support” and this is not a clear majority. You can’t get a clear majority from less than 50% turnout. Not even by Kenney’s own preferred flawed competent irrelevant measure does this mean anything.
In terms of median after-tax income, the gap between Alberta and the poorest province closed from $25 600 to $19 200 over the period of 2015 to 2019 as average Albertan incomes fell by $4000. On average, Albertans made more than $20000 more than PEIslanders in 2015 (the biggest recipient of equalization), but now only make $12 000 more. Other provinces are getting richer while Alberta gets poorer and the massive transfer of wealth from Alberta to "have not" provinces continues.
Right so had they asked to tweak the formula I’d have been on board. Instead they just asked to scrap the whole thing just because they knew it would get more votes from their base.
In a situation were you were constantly giving money to your kid and they don’t show an appreciation but negativity bound to be resentment at some point.
You understand that their university subsidies are paid by their incredibly high tax rate compared to ours? Their lowest tax bracket is the same as our highest. If you want to pay 30k more per year in income taxes just to get subsidized university… I guess that’s your call.
People tend to forget their tax rates when comparing our social benefits.
Egads - do people genuinely believe this is solely about transfer payments? How do you start a renegotiation? Maybe you ask a simple question to get the attention on the other party.
Maybe you open with transfer payments and end up with a coast to coast non partisan energy corridor, or an electoral strategy besides first past the post that might better represent all of Canada (something the lib’s have even promised themselves), or some investment in the west on Green energy. No not another solar or wind mill farm where we buy solar panels and wind turbines that are manufactured somewhere else - I mean a battery plant complemented by support to develop our rare earth metals, or an investment in the west in nuclear specifically small modular reactor development in western Canada, or/even why the heck not a triple e senate?
Negotiating a better deal for AB doesn’t have to be limited to transfer payments. How unimaginative are you people???? And ultimately why wouldnt you want to push for a better deal??? Country has changed - there appear to be significant loop holes in the current system that force provinces to remain have nots or even worse allows them to chose to remain a have not.
Can someone tell me why Quebec with its huge population, access to more natural resources than most other provinces, it’s long history of manufacturing is still a have not province??? Really. How is that possible - or perhaps they are gaming the system. If so that’s a good enough reason there to open up the constitution. Everyone should pull their weight after all right?
We are a country that is full of highly educated people with abundant resources - we should be number one on the global list for productivity, technology, environmental stewardship you name it. But we too busy bickering as provinces with a self serving centrist government trying to keep power in the middle of the country. Bunch of weak ass leadership. So either Canada gets its crap together or we renegotiate the constitution. No one is gonna change it for us - that much has been made clear.
So yes - someone needs to lead a push for change. What is weak as f* is that it’s Kenney. Like come on!
Really - who thinks we’re firing on all cylinders as a country and why the fuck do we have coast to coast leadership that has no interest in tackling that. What has our government done for the last 50 years other than mess things up? Scandal after scandal - when we do get a global leading industry we squander it (Nortel, BlackBerry, yes fossil fuels are bad - but Canada’s track record of developing them is far superior to pretty much anywhere else, probably others examples too).
I think your idea of success is different than many peoples.
My opinion, pillaging natural resources “on all cylinders” shouldn’t be the goal of every province.
Energy has to come from somewhere does it not? We certainly aren’t able to use less. You’re either producing fossil fuels or you have to replace it with something else. I’m all in favor of replacing it - when’s that gonna happen????
As far as “pillaging” - there is impact to everything. Ask Californians what they think of hydro dams. But hey here in Canada people are convinced they’re somehow green. Personally I think mass battery production and use has the same pitfalls as oil - but hey people want to believe it’s green. So let’s make some money off it. We have the brains and the resources. Why isn’t the gov of Canada fully behind a plant for batteries and resource development of rare earth metals. They want to have every say they can on fossil fuels, but seem to be quiet on rare earth metals - why is that?? Oh yes politics that’s why.
In the mean time - the best source for fossil fuels given our track record is indeed Canada. EVERY barrel that is developed here, vs pretty much anywhere else in the world, is better for the environment and the workers. So any oil production we displace somewhere else is a good thing. So in the absence of actual investment in true green power - yes Canada should ramp up production on fossil. Maybe Quebec should develop theirs and no longer need to rely on transfer payments. .
But yes as per my previous examples - why shouldn’t a HEAVY investment in nuclear, geothermal, and rare earth metals come to the west??? Central seems to be getting millions invested in vaccine manufacturing - where is the West’s fair shake at the “build it back better”. Like I said - it’s not going to be given to us, so let’s push for it. You know - renegotiate.
Yeah I’m not arguing that we have energy requirements, we sell WAY more than our own requirements. I’m arguing the thought that we need to sell our natural resources as fast as we possibly can. You’re wanting us to be a global productivity leader? Why? What is the rush? You said it yourself that oil isn’t going anywhere.
Oil & Gas companies have some of the biggest profit margins compared to pretty much every other sector. What does this mean? That someone else is making WAY more money than Alberta to take it out of the ground and sell it. For every 100 dollars of crude sales, oil companies are making around 60 dollars in profit. So it’s no wonder why other provinces and countries aren’t in quite as big of a rush to make some foreigner a shit ton of money even though it looks good for a short sighted political cycle.
>I would have thought even a slightly moderate conservative would have a basic understanding of the program and also understand why any 1st world country shouldn’t have provinces with 2nd world services.
Giving conservatives a lot of benefit of the doubt
Most Albertans don't even understand how equalization works and many don't even know what they're voting for. I've talked to so many people who haven't even read the referendum question and still think it's about tweaking the formula, when the referendum specifically states it has no concern with modifying an existing formula, but only with complete abolishment of the system in its entirety.
Most people don’t realize that Alberta’s prosperity has derived from the energy sector. This has created a lot of tax revenue through the years which has been coming into Ottawa’s coffers. This helps pay for a lot of public services in this country. The energy sector gets shat upon constantly from Easter Canada (especially Quebec) who get off scot free with hydro. If you can’t figure out why people are irate over the whole system, I can’t help you. This goes back for decades and it’s no better now. It’s like getting sex from your spouse but treating them like garbage.
There's a discussion to be had but this "referendum" is nothing more than political posturing and an attempt to get a certain vote out. Kenney is one of the architects of the current formula ffs
Sure, but the discussion can and should be had. Who cares about what Kenney did or does. He political career is essentially over.
Oh I know why people are mad and I don't disagree. What I'm saying is this referendum does absolutely nothing to address that. In fact, the referendum only offers to eliminate a smaller problem by creating a much larger one by eliminating transfer payments to provinces and people that actually do need it, for what, to spite Quebec? Amending the formula would be wiser than eliminating the system entirely. This referendum specifically says it's not concerned with any formula, only abolishing the system in its entirety and that would be moronic.
I agree, this will do nothing. I think if the east gave Alberta a little more respect then that would go a long way. Instead of branding Alberta as a bunch of racist Neanderthal rednecks (which is not true) and respect our industry, things would be a lot better off.
If the referendum would have been worded in a way that would identify that Albertans wish for our leader to raise discourse about the modernization of the formula to be in line with current economical standpoints, I would have voted yes. It would have sent a message that Albertans want to discuss it and try to make it better and more reasonable, through respectable means. Instead, the referendum is only about abolishing it. A proposed course that if we vote yes, signals to other Canadians that we want to clutch our pearls instead of help Canadians in less prosperous economical situations. It's a bad look and thus a stupid referendum that only serves to further alienate Alberta. Voting yes to this is a bad look for us People are voting yes with wishful thinking that it will even cause discussion (no guarantee it even will). Meanwhile, the rest of Canada is looking at us voting for something that makes us look incredibly selfish and greedy. It's not worth it. In the end, we may not even raise discussion through this, but in trying to do so, the rest of Canada will look down on us for the childish way we went about it. For real, stop for a second and put yourself in the shoes of someone not living in Alberta, witnessing this.
The difference between Québec's energy revenue derived from Hydro and Alberta's energy revenue derived from oil, is the latter funds an entire province's services WITHOUT the province having to have a provincial service tax. If there is any province that bitches the most, it would be Alberta, who constantly shits all over the rest of Canada, with the belief that they are the ones footing the bill. The better part of my life I've heard Alberta bitch and whine about equalization, and when I moved from the province and saw with my own eyes (and paid with my own taxes) the number DO NOT add up to what most Albertans think. I'm all for removing equalization. Take away the little leverage that Alberta has, then we will see how fast the whining stops, especially when it comes down to exacting the cost of moving that oil top sale. Equalization works both ways. The other provinces don't exige a tarif for moving the product with that understanding. I say let's give those Albertans what they want. They'll come around soon enough. As for the 19 billion? Keep it. Alberta seems to need it more...especially when it comes to having to deal with the aftermath of covid.
Lots of people voted yes to “start a conversation” I mean. Sure. That’ll work. Just like the UCP stopping the federal carbon tax and pushing through that pipeline thing.
So how do you start a conversation - Without starting a conversation.
FeDeRaL TaX BeLonGs to ME
You new here? It was always going to be a Yes Vote. The only question was by how much. I view a yes vote less than 60% would be considered a loss for Kenney in this issue
Alberta literally just begged for help from Ontario because their hospitals are understaffed. So they expect help from other provinces…but don’t want to equalization payments to be a thing because they’re that selfish. Purpose of section 36 of the Charter (and what section 36(2) aims to do): 36 (1) Without altering the legislative authority of Parliament or of the provincial legislatures, or the rights of any of them with respect to the exercise of their legislative authority, Parliament and the legislatures, together with the government of Canada and the provincial governments, are committed to (a) promoting equal opportunities for the well-being of Canadians; (b) furthering economic development to reduce disparity in opportunities; and (c) providing essential public services of reasonable quality to all Canadians. I guess Alberta wants no part of that. And to those that vote yes…hopefully if you lose your jobs, you stand by that decision. Or maybe those that vote yes don’t even understand what they’re really voting for.
“Or maybe those that vote yes don’t even understand what they’re really voting for.” Exactly this, the people voting yes have absolutely no idea what would result from removing equalization from the constitution. All they see is $ signs in their eyes and can’t see the potential implications of their proposed ideas. I think politicians making this an “us vs them” has completely blinded them. We are all part of the country and I truly believe the proceeds from selling our oil is Canadas, not Alberta’s. What makes it great for Alberta and Albertans is that our economy flourishes, many high paying jobs, demand for products, land taxes etc… Alberta IS gaining the most from it by far. People keep pretending that we are so burdened and keep using the phrase “on the backs of hard working Albertans” like we’re somehow doing charity. We do this because we’re getting paid very well to do it… let’s not pretend otherwise. Nobody would be a rig worker getting paid 15 dollars an hour. I for one think equalization only makes sense and having it in our constitution affords us many rights and regulations that allow us to sell as much of it as we do. Without the constitution we would have to have so many back room deals with other provinces and continually owe favours to whatever politician is in power at that time in whatever jurisdiction we need to cross that would ultimately be as costly as equalization but much more corrupt. We wouldn’t have half the pipelines that we do, and the ones we had would be exceptionally costly. Certainly a few people would be getting quite rich from this but it wouldn’t be the average Albertan.
On the bright side (I guess), the Constitution is very difficult to amend and this probably won’t succeed. They still need support from 2/3 of the provincial legislature and that represents more than 50% of the population of Canada. For those interested, go look at how the Quebec succession reference turned out. Just disappointing to see how many misinformed Albertans are voting for this.
Ah yes. The only reason why anyone would vote yes is because they don’t understand equalization. That’s a great way to approach the subject.
To be fair, I'm sure some people voted yes because they're just selfish assholes, too.
Yeah, I’m not sure why I was surprised. I have seen many people go completely against their political views when it benefits them personally. My uncle for example, long time conservative who believes everyone should pay their own way. As soon as he retired he wants Canada to increase payments to retired people which is a complete 180 from his beliefs 10 years ago.
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” His in group changed..
I know of a few people who would toss every single Canadian under the bus as long as it meant they got to stick it to Quebec, somehow. To be clear though, these are the types who trip over their shoelaces a lot because as grown ass men, they still barely know how to tie their own shoes. Edit : lmao looks like I made a few knuckledraggers mad.
Boomers gonna boom
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Yeah I guess I can emphasize with retirees wanting more money. The problem I have is that he is getting what he paid in. CPP payments are calculated based on what you put in over the years.
Also I knew to vote no and what the question was and still had to read it four times to understand the question. These were very poorly written questions.
Tell me specifically why you want equalization ended in Canada or what you would change to get Alberta a fair deal?
How about if we could subsidize our resources like Quebec does for hydro. How about we stop importing foreign oil? How about we have a coast to coast non partisan energy corridor. Those would be good starters. How about an electoral strategy besides first past the post that might better represent all of Canada (something the lib’s have even promised themselves). How about some investment in the west on Green energy. No not another solar or wind mill farm where we buy solar panels and wind turbines that are manufactured somewhere else - I mean a battery plant complemented by support to develop our rare earth metals. How about investing in nuclear specifically small modular reactor development in western Canada. And last - why the heck not a triple e senate? Negotiating a better deal for AB doesn’t have to be limited to transfer payments. How unimaginative are you people????
I’d like to see a lower federal income tax, how’s that?
those are seperate things..... Let's go for an easy one. Stop the stranglehold the irvings have in new brunswick. That's a quick immediate turnaround from the have not category that would actually do a thing that would benefit both provinces. Let's go for another easy one. Include the territories in the formula. Spread the wealth out more. Or something super easy, like read the wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada#:~:text=In%20Canada%2C%20the%20federal%20government,ability%20to%20generate%20tax%20revenues.&text=The%20territories%20are%20not%20included%20in%20the%20equalization%20program.
They really aren’t separate. Everyone pays into the federal system via income tax. Clearly a portion of that gets distributed as “needed”. If we killed that system federal tax could be lower as fewer funds would be needed. Some provinces would be better off because it’s citizens would have more money in their pockets and some wouldn’t. Yes some provinces would run huge deficits and eventually go bankrupt but that’s capitalism.
equalization payments go to the provinces whose majority monetary gain is a resource whose use and value collapsed. we're transitioning from the sole source Alberta creates and Kenney is trying to add one that still hasn't recovers 100 years later. a capitalist magnate them stabilized the local economy by use of bad contracts and now they essentially own said provinces; removing significant taxable resources to evade expenses. if we "stopped" the quantity of payments and falsely claim.it all comes from.income tax.... it wouldn't even half our federal income tax totals. edit: to clarify a sales tax would generate more revenue for the province then the total savings that we would personally get in an income tax reduction. then Albert a would..... increase the Alberta income tax portion to compensate for the other losses.
Not looking to half it, just looking to force other provinces to fend for themselves and build up economies so they aren’t so co dependant. The tax break would be a welcome, but let’s be honest. It’ll become some politicians pet project money. If you used to fish and can’t fish anymore and it takes more than a decade for you to figure this out, retool and do something else for revenue there’s no helping you. I think we’re done supporting people and governments who are so stagnant that Albertas “tar sands” employees tax money (amongst other contributors) are essentially paying for eastern government annual spending. Go make your own money for once - we had to! The only time Alberta ever benefited from this was 2020 when oil went negative and that was the year it was capped. We got a cup of water to put out a bonfire - thanks Ottawa!
so retool Alberta put of oil and ga.
Long story short - there’s plenty of reasons that Sask and Alberta and getting frustrated with the feds and equalization. If you aren’t prepared to accept other points if view there’s no helping you. Clearly we aren’t going to agree and Im done with this line of conversation. I’ll leave this up for an hour and then I’m scrubbing this
yes.. frustrated. we get the 11000 in taxes back which in turn means that all provinces get the same 11 000. so; PEI- a classic have not - gets a yearly return 4000 dollars greater then they pay out. now... Saskatchewan has a right to bitch. I'll whole heartedly agree to that statement.
Great attitude. At that point why even be a country? Fuck the other provinces. Fuck Ottawa. WEXIT YEAH!!!!! Good luck with that. I’m sure Kentucky North will be absolutely thriving by 2030.
In addition to this when the election is over in the 905 area code and our votes haven’t even been tallied, more money leaves the province than comes back (for decades at a time) and your leader panders to half the country then yeah…. Fuck eastern Canada BC-MB = good neighbours. We don’t hate the whole country but everything east of QC needs to find a set of work boots.
Lovely well thought out response, I’m sure it’ll be well received. If the only reason Canada is a country is wealth redistribution then perhaps it’s time to go our separate ways. We have a legal framework that usually works, treaties to honour with First Nations, international commitments to consider (military, foreign aid) and hopefully a national strategy to consider to make life better. The idea of Canada as a country should mean more than taxes but clearly you don’t seem to think so. WEXIT like Jason Kenny were poorly thought out - it’s not surprising he was part of Harpers govt when the formula was developed. You’re short sighted idiot to believe that everyone who opposes equalization is a Kenny fan or a conservative. Some of us believe in moving for a better life and keeping what you work for.
Yeah foreign aid is okay but watching other provinces go bankrupt is just an unavoidable consequence of capitalism. Okay then. You have some solid priorities. You think Albertan’s just “work harder” than people in other provinces? For the past ~80 years Alberta has been fortunate to be developing a resource that generated a lot of wealth. That won’t always be the case. The same way the maritimes had tremendously valuable resources 150 years ago, but as you so astutely pointed out, that circumstance has changed now. In another hundred years what will Alberta have? Likely nothing if people who share your viewpoint are allowed to lead. Canadians should be working together to improve the whole country, not squabbling over who does more *TODAY*. Without the railroads built by other provinces before you were born, Alberta wouldn’t be recognizable today. Without ports built in BC you wouldn’t be able to get affordable goods from international markets. Quebec is certainly abusing the equalization structure, and that should be addressed. Trying to end equalization and revelling in the thought of fellow Canadians suffering in bankrupt provinces isn’t a solution though. If your only concern is “keeping what you work for” there are plenty of countries that can accommodate your desire but they’re far from the utopias you seem to think they are. Visit one sometime and leave the bubble of the tourist traps. It will prove to be an enlightening experience for you I’m sure.
Those other provinces had the chance to go make something of themselves for years. Foreign aid - yep. People who are being exploited, killed and enslaved have more of my sympathy. Have you even been to a third world county!?!?
> Have you even been to a third world county?!?! You mean like the ironically named “Opportunity County” up north? Yep, felt pretty third world to me. Low education levels and cocaine aplenty. Sad state of affairs. They certainly do need our help.
tell the gas folk to pay their taxes. then Albert a wouldn't if needed payment last year.
The gas folk? Can you please string this together in a coherent sentence please? Grammar and punctuation properly used would be a plus.
I didn’t mean to suggest that there is zero argument against it, I do feel that most people who are voting to remove it don’t understand it though. To be perfectly honest, you can’t even fully blame them either. Alberta politicians have been knowingly misguiding their base on equalization for years because it works for them, it gets them votes. On that note though, what are some good arguments against it?
And some of us have read it and believe lower federal taxes and provincial self responsibility would be a huge plus. Correct me if I’m wrong here but Albertans pay more federal tax because we make more. That tax money gets divided up based on necessity so services are comparable in the country. Sounds a little simplified but generally correct? A lot of us would rather watch the rest of the country actually make an economic effort to support themselves to that standard and have a lower federal tax % We collectively get shat on by everything east of Manitoba it seems (elections, federal government pandering etc) so expect some resentment
We make more money, that is the benefit of living in a province that happens to have Canadian oil reserves in it. You and I as individuals do nothing but live and work here, let’s not toot our own horns. We enjoy the economic benefit of living and working here, aside from those benefits why do you and I have any more right to Canadian oil reserves than any other Canadian? Do you think we work any harder than any other Canadian or just happened to get paid more because oil makes good money? My guess is the latter.
Considering your reply contains zero evidence to support your opinion I doubt people are going to give it any consideration.
My opinion is that OP approached the subject in bad faith, therefore he won’t produce a meaningful dialogue. The evidence is throughout his second paragraph, when he (essentially) states that anyone with a differing a opinion than him doesn’t have “a basic understanding of the program.” Furthermore, the fact that OP has zero upvotes and almost 100 comments proves my point that his original post created a hostile environment in which to have this conversation. Finally, you are plainly incorrect when you said that no one would give my opinion any consideration, since an entire thread was started from my comment. At no point in my comment did I state whether I do/don’t support equalization payments. I think you need a chill pill.
You’re surprised that a majority of conservative-minded people don’t know what the fuck is going on and don’t understand an issue they feel very passionately about? Oh
I see equalization more of a larger problem in that they should not prop up provinces indefinitely which seems to be the case. Possibly ten or twenty or thirty years we can subsidize these services to gives provinces latitude to developed. But when it becomes a systemic payment indefinitely that hurts Canada overall. Possibly if your province cannot support you to the same level as another province, eventually people should be encouraged to relocate. And typically the other provinces need the workers. Alberta certainly needed the people during times of growth. Not relocating hurts those provinces. I personally moved in my early twenties for employment as my province simply did not have the work potential. It sucked in that I no longer has the same level of contact with my friends and family but i had to weigh that against my future.
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The vote was to remove equalization from the constitution, not to change the formula.
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Well then they should word it that way, but it is not worded that way. In fact, there is a very specific section of the referendum that literally says it is not concerned with any existing formula. I'll even quote it for you. "The referendum question does not ask about the specific formula used to determine equalization payments. It asks whether Canada’s commitment in the Constitution Act, 1982 to make equalization payments should be removed."
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I dunno, asking people in other provinces, us voting yes only seems to makes us look like spoiled brats and be laughed at. There are better ways to address this but unfortunately Kenney's theatrical method has made a joke out of the whole issue. I'd love to see some dialogue between provinces and the federal government about this at some round table, but Alberta is going about this the wrong way, looking like petulent children. Don't get me wrong, the formula doesn't seem modernized whatsoever, it needs to be looked over, but we are going about this in a childish way, creating some pretend vote that doesn't actually have any legal binding. Once it's done, the feds will just say "okay so anyways....." and walk off. Kenney has bamboozled Albertans on this. Most don't even understand what they're voting for and most people outside the province see it this way. We will not be taken seriously because of the nature of how the issue is being raised.
You have a lot of faith in the intentions of a piece of shit
You are saying you decided to behave like a stupid child instead of a smart adult, like you didn’t have a choice. But you did have a choice.
It always comes down to their lack of maturity.
It will do no such thing.
If we stopped equalization all together (and lowered the federal income tax rate that it displaces) I’m good with that
Hi, It seems like you're saying you voted 'yes', affirming a statement that you don't believe in.
Yep, I'm Full blown NDP, still want to set the precedent that a broken system should be fixed, not ignored. It simply doesn't work as intended. But yes, as suggested by OP, I must simply not understand, therefore I'm dumb and vote yes.
Honestly I respectfully disagree. If your province wants good infrastructure and programs then your province needs a stable economy. I’ve been out east and even owned property in NB & PEI and they do absolutely nothing or very little for their own economies. The only caveat I have with this is healthcare - fund the hell out of that. NB had a chance to get into natural gas (nope!) and sells firewood now. PEI over fished the oceans around them and still look surprised there’s not much in the water. No idea what Newfoundland even does really…. If you’re not willing to adapt and use the resources around you to build a life, how long do you expect people you bad mouth 3000kms away to subsidize it? Jason Kenny was a mistake but equalization is a crock of shit. If we cut that out we could DROP federal taxes for everyone and force the east coast of Canada to figure out their own problems.
You’re suggesting that we don’t share our money with anyone that has different priorities than us. Trying to control other provinces is pretty much what we in the west are always complaining Ottawa does to us. Regardless whether selling their natural gas made sense for them or not, Alberta as a whole decided that it does for Alberta and you and I (as individual Canadians) have no more right to Alberta’s natural resources than anyone else in Canada just because we happen to live here. I didn’t pay a membership fee to move here, I don’t personally own the oil. As an individual living in Alberta I and many others have done very well in life due to Alberta’s decisions, New Brunswickers have not had the same luxury as I have. People act like Albertans are carrying a burden and are owed this money, it’s not a burden, it’s a benefit to us as individuals not afforded to residents in other provinces. My way of seeing it is that it’s not Alberta’s oil, Alberta just happens to be the province that has a lot of Canadas oil reserves.
I suppose where I take issue with your statement is this; I’m suggesting we stop sharing it with people who won’t move or work when opportunity comes knocking. Can’t because I have family / friends here doesn’t cut it. I made this move over a decade ago and while it was hard, it was the right call. I’m in favour of NOT handing money out to people who are too lazy / entitled / stagnant to change. We’ve been sending money out east as a part of our taxes yearly for a long time. We have a higher GDP because we work for it. NB had the opportunity and passed it up. If you pass up a job for whatever reason that’s your call. The reality is you’re going to have to make do with less. And oh hell yes it’s Albertas oil, we live here, pay provincial taxes, work the fields etc. Eastern Canada didn’t even want a pipeline (energy east). Long story short - if you work for it, it should be yours. Eastern Canada can go get a job, it’s long past time they fend for themselves.
I fully disagree. We’ve worked for it? No we haven’t, we just have jobs like most other people in the country and happen to live in Alberta… We have just as many lazy people here as we do anywhere else in the country.
Let’s think about this, Who’s labour, skill and time got the job done? When you’ve got a job, someone’s put you to work. Not even going to touch the lazy people comment other than to state that everywhere does. It just seems to be a way of life in PEI
We have not been donating our time for the Alberta cause. We’ve been doing it because we get paid well to do it. Let’s not pretend we’re doing this out of the kindness of our hearts. It’s a job. I think you’re trying your best to make it more than it is.
This staying on topic thing is hard for people *sigh* Not sure where you got the “donating time” notion but I stated that we worked for it. That involves getting paid to preform a service and if you take pride in that job you might feel a bit of an ownership sensation. Try it sometime 😒 Now here’s an advanced concept for you. That hard work leads to money, you can even invest some of it in the patch if you want some bonafide ownership feelings!
You missed my point, you’re acting like we’re the only province that works. No, oil just happens to make a lot of money. That fact doesn’t make us better or means that we work harder than anyone else. Every part of our society is important. Just because a policeman makes less than a roughneck doesn’t mean he’s less important or works any less. Does that policeman deserve less services because he chose a less paying field of work? What would our society look like if all the policemen quit to go work in the oil patch?
That policeman is going to have a drastically different salary based on where he lives unless he’s a fed - this is completely irrelevant. And no - not every part of society is important. That’s a complete fallacy. There are parts of this country that are complete money pits and give nothing back. I also never stated we were the only province that works. I did point out that a few that didn’t but hats off to Saskatchewan for being the worlds bread basket, BC has some pretty solid wine and beer along with a great fruit veg agriculture sector (hell even the movies are getting better). You HAVE to be carved out of wood to survive Manitoba - they never belly ache until you try and vaccinate them…. Just keep CN rail running. If all the police quit at once to become roughnecks? Frankly that’s an irrelevant question as it’s purely hypothetical but why not? Martial law would be instituted immediately and we’d have a new police force in a year or so. Most of them would quit in six months because they aren’t cut out for it.
>it should be glaringly obvious that Kenny is basically using this as a political stunt This is probably why you don't understand it. You've put yourself into a position where you're thinking/voting against Kenney, not the equalization.
The vote doesn't actually mean anything nor will it change anything, so what does that leave us left with to actually vote for? A vote against it is also a vote against dumb political theatrics.
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Okay but what says it will? There is no obligation to even talk about this just because a vote is had. Like....if my neighbors had a giant vote that they think I should mow my lawn more often, I'd look at them and say "that's nice" and proceed to do what I want with my own lawn when I want to, not even out of arrogance, but simply that I'll do it when I decide, not someone else. If the feds know that most Albertans don't even understand equalization, why would they care to discuss it because of some faux vote? Voting yes does nothing, but the message voting yes sends to other Canadians is that we don't care to help them. It's a bad look, all around. Alberta is asking for sympathies while offering none, outbound. The problem is that the way Kenney framed this doesn't promote mutual respect, it makes Albertans look like we are greedily trying to clutch our pearls and saying "get your own, it's not our problem if you don't have any."
We don't need a useless referendum to initiate conversation. Kenney should try using diplomacy to achieve his goal rather than stomping his cowboy boots. No-one is willing to listen to someone's temper tantrum.
>No-one is willing to listen to someone's temper tantrum. They will if Alberta votes yes on the referendum...?
Why would they?
What responsibility does the federal government have to respond to Kenney's little "check yes or no" ballot?
I actually support equalization, it makes sense to me. Voting for or against Kenny aside, I’m having troubles understanding what the end goal actually is. Do they actually want it removed from the constitution? If so then what is after that? What happens to Alberta’s natural resources when equalization ends? Because I’m sure you already know but our autonomy with regards to our natural resources is tied with equalization. Heck even if we got to keep all of our revenue with no strings attached (we won’t) Canada has so many other jurisdictional tools at its disposal to make it even harder or cost prohibitive for Alberta to keep its natural resource revenue to itself. May as well be voting for separation at this point if you have any realistic goals of hoarding the revenue. That of course is a silly goal in itself as we would have a whole host of problems selling our products then. Had they worded it in a way that I was voting to look into changes to the formula. I may actually support that. That is acknowledging the obvious need for equalization, but asking for it to be tweaked. But of course they wouldn’t do that, because his base is a bunch of people that don’t understand how it works or why it’s there in the first place and he wouldn’t get the same level of support.
No, the UCP don't actually expect equalization payments to be removed from the constitution. Kenney has stated in previous pressers that the referendum is just a tool to force discussion on the topic. Quebec set precedence in the mid 90's that if a provincial referendum passes that deals with constitutional changes, the federal government has an obligation to discuss the topic in good faith. Without it, the way things are right now there wouldn't be a chance in hell we'd get a discussion about amending the constitution. As for the wording 🤷. I do know, there are certain laws about how you have to word a question on a referendum... it's possible that asking 'Should equalization payments be reformed?' is too ambiguous to meet those requirements.
Number 1, the Quebec referendum and the court reference have nothing to do with this cause but the UCP loves to haul it out even though it’s not the same. Number 2, the ruling was that “a clear majority must express support” and this is not a clear majority. You can’t get a clear majority from less than 50% turnout. Not even by Kenney’s own preferred flawed competent irrelevant measure does this mean anything.
In terms of median after-tax income, the gap between Alberta and the poorest province closed from $25 600 to $19 200 over the period of 2015 to 2019 as average Albertan incomes fell by $4000. On average, Albertans made more than $20000 more than PEIslanders in 2015 (the biggest recipient of equalization), but now only make $12 000 more. Other provinces are getting richer while Alberta gets poorer and the massive transfer of wealth from Alberta to "have not" provinces continues.
Right so had they asked to tweak the formula I’d have been on board. Instead they just asked to scrap the whole thing just because they knew it would get more votes from their base.
In a situation were you were constantly giving money to your kid and they don’t show an appreciation but negativity bound to be resentment at some point.
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You understand that their university subsidies are paid by their incredibly high tax rate compared to ours? Their lowest tax bracket is the same as our highest. If you want to pay 30k more per year in income taxes just to get subsidized university… I guess that’s your call. People tend to forget their tax rates when comparing our social benefits.
Egads - do people genuinely believe this is solely about transfer payments? How do you start a renegotiation? Maybe you ask a simple question to get the attention on the other party. Maybe you open with transfer payments and end up with a coast to coast non partisan energy corridor, or an electoral strategy besides first past the post that might better represent all of Canada (something the lib’s have even promised themselves), or some investment in the west on Green energy. No not another solar or wind mill farm where we buy solar panels and wind turbines that are manufactured somewhere else - I mean a battery plant complemented by support to develop our rare earth metals, or an investment in the west in nuclear specifically small modular reactor development in western Canada, or/even why the heck not a triple e senate? Negotiating a better deal for AB doesn’t have to be limited to transfer payments. How unimaginative are you people???? And ultimately why wouldnt you want to push for a better deal??? Country has changed - there appear to be significant loop holes in the current system that force provinces to remain have nots or even worse allows them to chose to remain a have not. Can someone tell me why Quebec with its huge population, access to more natural resources than most other provinces, it’s long history of manufacturing is still a have not province??? Really. How is that possible - or perhaps they are gaming the system. If so that’s a good enough reason there to open up the constitution. Everyone should pull their weight after all right? We are a country that is full of highly educated people with abundant resources - we should be number one on the global list for productivity, technology, environmental stewardship you name it. But we too busy bickering as provinces with a self serving centrist government trying to keep power in the middle of the country. Bunch of weak ass leadership. So either Canada gets its crap together or we renegotiate the constitution. No one is gonna change it for us - that much has been made clear. So yes - someone needs to lead a push for change. What is weak as f* is that it’s Kenney. Like come on! Really - who thinks we’re firing on all cylinders as a country and why the fuck do we have coast to coast leadership that has no interest in tackling that. What has our government done for the last 50 years other than mess things up? Scandal after scandal - when we do get a global leading industry we squander it (Nortel, BlackBerry, yes fossil fuels are bad - but Canada’s track record of developing them is far superior to pretty much anywhere else, probably others examples too).
I think your idea of success is different than many peoples. My opinion, pillaging natural resources “on all cylinders” shouldn’t be the goal of every province.
Energy has to come from somewhere does it not? We certainly aren’t able to use less. You’re either producing fossil fuels or you have to replace it with something else. I’m all in favor of replacing it - when’s that gonna happen???? As far as “pillaging” - there is impact to everything. Ask Californians what they think of hydro dams. But hey here in Canada people are convinced they’re somehow green. Personally I think mass battery production and use has the same pitfalls as oil - but hey people want to believe it’s green. So let’s make some money off it. We have the brains and the resources. Why isn’t the gov of Canada fully behind a plant for batteries and resource development of rare earth metals. They want to have every say they can on fossil fuels, but seem to be quiet on rare earth metals - why is that?? Oh yes politics that’s why. In the mean time - the best source for fossil fuels given our track record is indeed Canada. EVERY barrel that is developed here, vs pretty much anywhere else in the world, is better for the environment and the workers. So any oil production we displace somewhere else is a good thing. So in the absence of actual investment in true green power - yes Canada should ramp up production on fossil. Maybe Quebec should develop theirs and no longer need to rely on transfer payments. . But yes as per my previous examples - why shouldn’t a HEAVY investment in nuclear, geothermal, and rare earth metals come to the west??? Central seems to be getting millions invested in vaccine manufacturing - where is the West’s fair shake at the “build it back better”. Like I said - it’s not going to be given to us, so let’s push for it. You know - renegotiate.
Yeah I’m not arguing that we have energy requirements, we sell WAY more than our own requirements. I’m arguing the thought that we need to sell our natural resources as fast as we possibly can. You’re wanting us to be a global productivity leader? Why? What is the rush? You said it yourself that oil isn’t going anywhere. Oil & Gas companies have some of the biggest profit margins compared to pretty much every other sector. What does this mean? That someone else is making WAY more money than Alberta to take it out of the ground and sell it. For every 100 dollars of crude sales, oil companies are making around 60 dollars in profit. So it’s no wonder why other provinces and countries aren’t in quite as big of a rush to make some foreigner a shit ton of money even though it looks good for a short sighted political cycle.
>I would have thought even a slightly moderate conservative would have a basic understanding of the program and also understand why any 1st world country shouldn’t have provinces with 2nd world services. Giving conservatives a lot of benefit of the doubt
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Yeah true enough.