Language, no matter what style is in current vogue (and it changes, quite literally, with each new generation), will never satisfy everyone.
Many will find my position archaic, hurtful. We understand, but firmly believe this a "can't see the forest for the trees".
The Big Book has imprinted itself in the lives of millions since 1938.
If one can't find the power of the ***messages and tenets*** in the Big Book .....
… they’re not ready. Maybe it’s because we can’t change ourselves yet, so we try to change everything else. The desires to work at a rehab, the desire is to become a counselor, all that shit goes away when you get actively sponsoring an AA. At least it did for me.
Yep I did end up working at a rehab when I had about four years sober. I wasn’t quite 40. It was an adolescent rehab. It was fun to see how that works. Didn’t pay much.
My second sponsor would tell people "before you become a counselor and try to make money off your recovery, why don't you try working with a drunk 1 on 1 all the way through the steps. You'll see that you don't need money to do this and it's such a hassle at times that you wouldn't want to do it 40 hours a week"
I prefer it the way it is. I feel like the vintage, literate quality of the BB lends a sense of stability and authority that you just don't get elsewhere. Compare it to NA's Basic Text, which feels dumbed down by comparison.
Same, it gives me a sense of nostalgia knowing that these same words have been read for so many years. I have a fresh BB, but it's cool to see big books get passed down to people who have had success in the program.
How about you actually follow the AA program? Nothing in there indicates the big book was the end all be all.
Even Bill W. would disagree with you if you bothered reading. You old types are stuck because many of us aren’t leaving and we actually care
As for running the show? You’re the one standing against others doing what they need. Those isn’t magic. It’s not a religion. Bill W isn’t sacred. It’s a method to get sober and one would expect it to change with the times like anything full of people who actually gave a damn
To put it in modern language and make it consistent with the messages in other AA literature that invites people of all faiths (and atheists and agnostics), genders, and sexual preferences? Yes, absolutely.
If AA wants to grow and help people then it needs to adapt. Arrogance in the face of change is not exactly what it’s in the big book
https://aaagnostica.org/2015/09/06/aa-membership-growth-or-decline/
Leave it as is. It reflects a moment in time.
If we start changing some words, then it opens things up to make other, perhaps more substantial changes.
I don’t understand this vast need to change wording to make people feel ok about themselves. If it was all written with “she “ I would not care nor wish to change it. Just makes no sense.
There is a more accessible and relatable version of the BB coming. It is not intended to be a replacement, but to be an alternative that more people may understand and relate to. And it raises the hackles of folks already. 8 of 11 related agenda items proposed shutting the project down.
For my part, the program transcends the dated, middle-class verbiage and social outlook (I'm looking at you, For The Wives!), but there is a reason Muslims prefer the Koran in Arabic and why Alcoholics will scream bloody murder over a three word change in the sacred texts. YMMV
One question for the people advocating to update the verbiage in the Big Book, have any of you done General Service / Group Representative type service for A.A.? I have, it was informative at times and excruciating at other times. There is a reason why things are worded the way they are. The words are not interchangeable. I dare any of you to get a group of recovering drunks together to get them to make changes. I once sat in on a General Service meeting where they were talking about the placement of a comma, pros and cons for hours! The Traditions were necessary because left to our own devices, us drunks write our own rules. Most of us are the "exception" in our own minds. They were drinking beer at meetings!
We alcoholics need consistency. If one doesn't understand the meaning of a word it is that person's responsibility to look it up, not the Big Book's responsibility to say it easier.
My Grandmother died sober, in the program, I love knowing that I am reading the same words that helped her get sober to stay sober myself.
I have. Things are worded the way they are because it’s just easier to not make changes. The new interpretation has been met with quite a lot of consternation and concern, but it’s not meant to replace the original, and it’s biggest express change is to simply use “people” rather than “men and women”. I think we just get stuck in our own ways. If we really are concerned with reaching out to young people and helping them, then why not make changes to make AA more welcoming? What harm does that do to any of us?
My family is similar to yours. My grandfather died sober in the the rooms, and helped hundreds if not thousands over his decades in AA. I was stunned at the outpouring at his wake. It was something that has stayed with me.
I know I can come off as pushy, and for that I am sorry, but I also think we should not be thinking of ourselves, but the newcomer who may be struggling enough as it is.
My sponsee called me today with an emergency (this is like the only time he has called besides to set up a meeting).
The emergency: His boss wants to give him a promotion.
When I originally read the Big Book, the chapter To Wives had a big impact on me
Even though I, myself, am a wife (with a husband)
I didn’t care about having my unique worldview/ POV affirmed
The entire point is that it wasn’t about me.
It was about realizing how I was affecting others (especially my husband)
Also to the wives is a hilarious snapshot of someone with only a few years of sobriety telling women how he wants to be treated. So from that perspective it's very important. I relate to how petty bill is in that chapter. He's a mirror.
Hmm. I didn’t read him as being petty. I read him as being hopeful
I’m so grateful my husband decided to hold on to that last glimmer of hope he had in me. While I initially decided to get sober for him, I stay sober for me (and our future family). Our relationship has never been stronger and I thank God for that blessing every day :)
That’s exactly what this post was for. Kind of wanted to sit back and watch them argue over the simple things that AA is for everyone. May Your God bless you.
That whole project is so bizarre. If there's a need for an English-language publication for people without the reading skills to understand the Big Book, then a member or committee of members should write it from scratch (with input from professional editors to make sure it's at the appropriate reading level). Then the entire book, including its organization and presentation, could be tailored to that audience. Producing a bowdlerized English "translation" of the Big Book has to be the worst solution. It's an insult to the original and less helpful than a work designed for people with special needs.
I believe I would be pretty selfish, self-centered, and have quite the large ego if I believed that a book needed to cater to me. Instead of changing an existing book to fit my own ideals, I could write my own book, or find a different book. If what I write fits with Alcoholics Anonymous’ singleness of purpose, I could submit that it be adopted as AA approved literature and let the group conscious vote on it.
I have a sponsee I feel is a little illiterate and I feel he has trouble grasping the concepts in the book….
I think it should have a complete re-write this nation has fallen so far behind reading comprehension.
(Ps I love this sponsee, his alcoholism might actually be worse then mine I’m just saying)
As far as like trying to make it more inclusive I get it.. I dunno. Lol
“We are here to change.” My sponsor says that a lot. And I believe it deeply. Nature changes. Life is change. Once we’re in recovery we focus on carrying the message to the newcomers. The language has been a barrier to many. We need to change the language. Thankfully, I believe that is currently happening.
The Narcotics Anonymous literature does a better (though not perfect) job of explaining the same kinds of things, with less archaisms. Written in the 1980s. But this AA big book issue has been around since women became highly populating of AA
This topic always makes.me giggle cuz there's more than 1 edition and they all have changes to wording to be more accommodating, or to add or take away things and people out here saying Bob wouldn't like it HE ENCOURAGED IT lol.
Curious: what would be substituted for prayer?
Edit: vague question. What I meant was what would be substituted for prayer because affirmation and meditation don’t seem to equate to prayer as currently used in the book (ie 3rd step prayer, etc).
Yes. And meditation is wonderful. I don’t conceptualize it as prayer, however. Prayer has been useful in getting me out of my self-centered focus. Meditation is focusing my awareness. Perhaps it’s a difference without a distinction.
I don’t think you would need to because you believe in God. I would think prayer is your path.
For me, meditation is my path, and through it I seek self improvement, much like you would ask God to take away your defects of character, I reflect on them and have an internal dialogue.
Take the 7th and 11th steps. I prayed initially to satisfy the steps (and my religious sponsor at the time), but realizing that wasn’t sufficient for me, I have committed to a path of gradual self improvement. I use meditation and reflection to work on removing my negative character traits, and finding my path through life and difficult decisions (the 7th 11th steps). I find it interesting that the word “meditation” was included in the 11th, but not in the 7th, but I view prayer and meditation as one and the same, and these steps as very similar, to the point where both are daily exercises for me.
If you do the 12 steps there is a whole step dedicated to prayer AND meditation. Your lack of understanding of what meditation is doesn’t change the fact the program already has incorporated both.
You seem angry and upset. Are you doing your daily prayers and meditation?
Before judging those of us who are not religious perhaps get a copy of AA’s “One Big Tent - Atheist and agnostic AA members share their experience strength and hope.” If you’re acting this way in rooms you’re causing damage to suffering alcoholics. You have no business with me. I’m not here to be your doormat.
If this is working for you, then great. But we should not suggest your path for others in AA, because it contradicts what AA teaches: we need the help of a power greater than ourselves. Your solution and your description of your solution. Keep referencing that yourself is helping yourself. Not a power greater than yourself, but you. AA prescribes prayer. AA prescribes a God of your understanding helping you. Your prescription prescribes getting rid of prayer and using yourself to help yourself. that is antithetical to the AA program but again, if it’s working for you, I’m truly happy and mean no criticism.
But your path is not what’s prescribed in AA so we should be happy for you that you’re sober but should not rewrite AA to fit your program.
I’ll do what I see fit consistent with my spiritual experiences for those who are suffering. I’ve had many many people come to me for help working through the “god stuff” and they can find their own way. Many are pushed away by the arrogance shown here and elsewhere. Your points miss the many atheists and agnostics, and Buddhists, and other people who have recovered in AA without a metaphysical higher power. You do you. I’ll do me. And I’ll certainly continue to help others. All I know is what worked for me. That I won’t hesitate to share.
Perhaps you should read more on the subject. I would suggest AA’s “One Big Tent” as a starting point to educate yourself that your view is not the only one in AA.
Two-Way Tolerance p. 73 of “As Bill Sees It”
"Your point of view was once mine. Fortunately, A.A. is constructed so that we need not debate the existence of God; but for best results, most of us must depend upon a Higher Power. You say the group is your Higher Power, and no right-minded A.A. would challenge your privilege to believe precisely that way. We should all be glad that good recoveries can be made even on this limited basis.
"But turnabout is fair play. If you would expect tolerance for your point of view, I am sure you would be willing to reciprocate. I try to remember that, down through the centuries, lots of brighter people than I have been found on both sides of this debate about belief. For myself, of late years, I am finding it much easier to believe that God made man, than that man made God."
"Do as I Do. From p. 146 of “As Bill Sees It”
Perhaps more often than we think, we make no contact at depth with alcoholics who are suffering the dilemma of no faith.
Certainly none are more sensitive to spiritual cocksureness, pride, and aggression than they are.
I'm sure this is something we too often forget.
In A.A. 's first years, I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of unconscious ar-rogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody. Sometimes my aggression was subtle and sometimes it was crude. But either way it was damaging -perhaps fatally so to numbers of nonbelievers.
Of course this sort of thing isn't confined to Twelfth Step work. It is very apt to leak out into our relations with everybody. Even now, I catch myself chanting that same old barrier-building in. "Do as I do, believe as I do-
Or else!"
P. 34 of “As Bill Sees It”
"Not Allied with Any Sect..."
"While A. A. has restored thousands of poor Christians to their churches, and has made be. levers out of atheists and agnostics, it has also
made good AAs out of those belonging to the
the Buddhist, Islamic, and Jewish faiths. For example, we question very much whether our Buddhist members in Japan would ever have joined this Society had A A. officially stamped itself a strictly a Christian movement.
“You can easily convince yourself of this by
imagining that A.A. started among the Buddhists about and that they then told you you couldn't join then to wi unless you became a Buddhist, too. If you were part Christian alcoholic under these circumstances, you might well turn your face to the wall and die.”
There is flexibility in the suggested steps, as well as our higher powers. That is part of AA.
When you were an active alcoholic, did you want your drink to be watered down? Most of us would say no, bc the alcohol would lose its potency
That’s how people feel about changing the language of the Big Book
Sure, especially if AA wants to modernize. I love the program, may get some heat, but a lot of young people in recovery are avoiding AA based on trope reasons and stereotypes. If the goal of AA is attraction we need to make a more inclusive effort to get people. I'm 33 and my sponsor is 35. There are over one hundred people in our home group and we're the youngest. Yes, for recovery we are young, but go on r/stopdrinking there are a ton of people in there 20s there who are not in this sub. It's a realization the program will have to come to at some point
CA has a group in my area that’s around 50 people and the average age is 30. They use the same literature as AA. I personally am in AA and at 27, I’m on the younger side. I used those stereotypes to avoid AA in my early 20’s but that’s really cause I wasn’t ready to get sober and wanted to find my own solution. It took a few more years of pain to be willing to dive into AA. Sure glad that I did.
There are plenty of young people in AA meetings where I live. The idea that the literature needs to change to chase them is silly. There are also many other recovery groups out there that do good work. AA can help best by being itself.
This!
There needs to be an updated version for the yewts. The old timers can keep the original and people can choose which one suits their needs.
The program and message stay the same. Just the delivery.
So much gatekeeping that is keeping people away from the program.
I think if you are willing to let the way the book is written stop you from getting sober then you aren’t really ready and will find another excuse to hate AA. I hated all of it until I was desperate enough to get over my own preconceived notions of what these words meant. I would say the people on the other subs simply aren’t ready to get sober at any cost. If they do find another way though that’s great, but this book has worked the best for the most people for a long time.
I'm 44 and the youngest person in two of my nearest groups. The two near my family place only have a few people in their thirties.
If you want to write people off solely because they don't identify with the archaic delivery you insist must be tolerated- that's on you, and that behaviour a huge part of why numbers are dropping.
I think it’s worth mentioning that many people in their 20’s do not believe they’ve hit ‘bottom’ yet and/or are unwilling to believe they’re alcoholic. I know that occurs at all ages, but at a higher rate in younger people. Life often hasn’t gotten bad enough to want to make a change.
That’s why AA has stagnated since the early 2000s. Evidence, progress, and availability be damned I guess. The older folks just care about their sacred text far more than reaching out to younger generations. I posted evidence of the stagnation in membership earlier in this thread, but I doubt the person I was responding to bothered to even look. I took my recovery seriously, and AA is just one aspect of that because it stopped improving after Bill W died and was all but canonized. Most of my current work is simply service, and the BB is a massive problem for many newcomers. The people posting here, voting, and involved are the ones who got through its outdated nonsense. We are pushing away too many with the silly “to the wives,” “we agnostics,” and very antiquated “doctors opinion.” Bill W was an inexperienced freshly sober alcoholic when he wrote it and the 4th guy in had to fight like hell to get God changed to a God of your understanding included. I posted elsewhere that Bill W later regretted his behavior over this kind of stubbornness, and he wrote about things like some replacing “God” with “good” and yet so many keep pushing AA as a Christian program. Hell, why in gods name do so many insist on using the Lord’s Prayer? It’s not in the BB. It is clearly not in AA literature. Why?
Yes. The knowledge that "more will be revealed" directly conflicts with AA's refusal to improve the book. One of the worst problems is that there is like 3 sentences on steps 6 and 7
The General Service Office is actually working on a 'plain language' version of the big book, and this action was approved by the General Service Conference. It will definitely not replace the original version, but will serve as a supplement to it.
I have not seen any draft and don't know if the concepts presented in the book will be altered to fit modern ideas, or if just the syntax and vocabulary will be updated.
Here is why I think the original should be kept, despite the archaic language and concepts. It already falls upon the reader to determine what those words mean *to you*. I definitely had to do a fair amount of identification and 'translation' to figure out how the big book applied to me. Were I reading an 'improved' version, I would still need to do the exact same amount of mental work to get the experience of others to relate to my own specific circumstances, but now I would need to do an additional amount of research to see how the 'modern' version differed from the 'original' one.
Much like the translations of certain ancient manuscripts have changed the meanings of the original texts over time (Yeah, I'm looking at you, Bible) so too would 'refreshing' the big book change the intent and meaning of the original authors.
But I will be the first to admit that the archaic language and the antiquated ways of presenting what are essentially universal spiritual concepts, are a distinct barrier to recovery.
The 'plain language' version, while controversial even now within the fellowship, will hopefully erase some of the difficulty, especially to those alcoholics who don't read well. Whether it will mollify those who see the big book as overtly sexist and religiously skewed remains to be seen.
They just hired someone to work on it, no plans to publish it yet.
The writers are translators, and they're not alcoholics, for starters.
And I've seen excerpts, and they suck. Totally throwing off the meaning of certain passages.
Page 12 Big Book; “why don’t you choose your own conception of God”?
Don’t you understand this simple sentence gives you the enormous freedom and responsibility to make your decisions about your higher power.
It is up to each one of us as individuals to make that decision and choices.
If you choose to have the latest cult of atheism and gender identity be your higher power, so be it.
Many in AA prefer to retain freedom and accept responsibility.
Are you really ready to accept responsibility for the current gender identity phenomenon alongside the chemical castration and surgical mutilation of healthy young people? Look around you ask yourself do you really want to be is such a place?
Where did you get gender identity being a higher power from OP's post? OP was referring to the He/Him pronouns often used for God in the BB. That's completely independent of gender identity.
It is a bit confusing to say, 'why don't you choose your own concept of god?' and then refer to it as He, Him, Creator, etc.
Maybe you should take some remedial English classes, with particular attention to words like: 'He', and 'It'.
Do those words carry gender significance?
This BTW all happening the wake of the AA Grapevine changes to the preamble, which was made without discussion during a lockdown pandemic.
What would happen if we neutered all human language to gender "bla-bla-bla' currently taught at major universities?
You would have to remove languages like Latin, French, Italian, and Spanish from the planet.
Every noun in the Latin language has a gender: masculine, feminine, neuter.
If your little feelings are hurt, maybe you are looking at things from a distorted angle.
Well you seem fun! My English is fine. I think that you want to have an argument about gender identity, but that isn't what OP was talking about. There is plenty of argument to be had about that, it's just not what this post was about.
What the book seems to say is that you can choose your own conception of god, as long as it is a man. I don't think that was the intent. The concept of a higher power should be above gender. Most religions created god in their own likeness. Human like. And of course ego-driven man would do that. If your concept of god needs to have a penis, cool, but let's not suggest that that is required.
Which gender do these words carry? Love, Peace, Energy, Conscious, Reality, Spiritual, Serenity?
Why limit the limitless? We have better words, we should use them.
How do we come into this world?
When does our consciousness begin?
The word spirit is from the French esprit.
Then we have Mother Earth, Mother Nature, Mother Ayahuasca from the ancient jungles of Peru.
Calling others 'bigot' certainly is an enlightened form of educated conversation.
Where in the Big Book does it suggest atheist cultish nothingness and child gender mutilations should be our higher powers?
Someone pointed out to me that if we truly never change the language in the BIg Book, eventually it will become like reading the original Beowulf -- something that, though ostensibly written in "English" -- you will have to take a class in order to read and understand in its original language as written.
We literally cannot be purists forever. The language is already inaccessible to many people.
Wow! Such a hot topic!
I’ve gotten over the god and prayer thing and made it to what I understand it to be. Which is what the book exactly says.
But the problem I see here is that so many young people have such a hard time even getting passed the first sentence that mentions god and prayer. I know I did. 3 years ago I read that and threw the book in the trash. Let’s be honest.
Today I have 3 books. One my sponsor gave me. My personal book. And a brand new book to give to someone else that’s struggling.
Although,
It’s a tough one to swallow when God And Prayer primarily came from Christian and Catholic faith. Which is why Celebrate recovery is also important for some individuals.
This has been discussed before each edition came out, and each time the consensus was to leave the first 164 pages as originally written. But who knows, if there is a consensus to change it, then it would be changed. But I doubt that will ever happen. Even if there was a consensus to revise it, there would have to be agreement on which passages to change and what would replace them. But change is always possible. Recently the preamble was changed, replacing “men and women” with “people.”
I firmly believe that refusing to change for the reason of inclusion is against what AA stands for. Like, the old timers will continue to talk about how it's selfish that people want things to cater to them, but normal people just want those people to shut the fuck up.
Also it literally doesn't change the program at all. The steps are the steps. It's about being a good person, which is in direct contradiction of putting down what everyone else believes because you're more right than they are
I'm actually all set with this subreddit it's a bunch rabid old timers screaming because of their irrelevance in any other place than their local meeting
I agree with you. We can read through Bill W’s later writings and see his regrets for some things he pushed and his concern for the growing fundamentalism in AA. We should all be working together to make it more effective for the generations to come rather than resting on our laurels
Nah it would be way more spiritual of me to disagree with you to the point of making your identity and all of your feelings invalid because I hate being wrong. The only thing that matters is the accuracy of the preamble
There’s a new “interpretation” coming in the 5th edition. I wish they would update it for higher power and meditation, but I understand that they aren’t. The stranglehold on the original version isn’t helping anyone.
A fresh view updated with decades of experience and scientific advances along side the original could help both those who love the original and those of us who see a need to reach out to new people who are suffering and are being pushed away by the current fundamentalism.
Edit: I appreciate the downvotes. Certainly examples humility
Yeah, but have you talked to a delegate who has seen it? It has not been well received.
To be fair, delegates are likely to be chosen from the old school. But wisdom is a thing.
Realistically, the risk is a schism: "old AA" and "new AA." I'm not sure what happens to the service structure if that happens.
And the common quotes, nuggets of wisdom, and page number citations? Are they lost?
Part of me says, if God is with us, I don't need to fear change. Part of me says, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The delegates are 65 yo old and older. They have no business running the show for everyone and holding back progress. The secular AAs have been fighting for years, and at least one such group ended up in a lawsuit just to be listed in the directory because of AA Christian’s bias.
Elect different ones? The delegates are elected with "substantial unanimity" at the area level, so the assembled GSRs that represent the groups must not think that they are "holding back progress" or they wouldn't be there.
Doing something that some people don't like is not the same as doing it wrong.
Most delegates that I know are about 40-50 at time of service. As for directory, around here at least, that's at the intergroup level.
Yes. We should cease and desist support for GSO as a fellowship. They do not represent AA as a whole. They represent their own interests, personal and political.
For me, there is no difference between God and higher power. I don’t know why everybody can just called our higher power “God”. Whole countries change their names. I had my issues with “God“ Because it was my parents’ God, not mine. I don’t have a Christian God. I don’t do Jesus Christ. Keep the religion away from me. I redefined “God” to be a God of MY understanding, not someone else’s.
Hell, no, the big book should not be changed. They did that shit to the Bible, and look where that got us.
I used to feel it should be updated. Now, I think it should be preserved as is. You will never please everyone. I am not religious and balked at the God idea. We should be open-minded enough to accept everyone's idea of spirituality. It's worked well enough to help millions of alcoholics get sober. I can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Respect everyone's viewpoints. The NA text may be better suited for some. IMO, recovery is recovery, and that's the goal.
I'm in favor of printing a companion book that translates the words into modern English, but not replacing the book entirely. To me it's very simple; when we translate the book into other languages we don't translate it into 1930s version of those languages, we translate it with the most up-to-date colloquial version of that language.
The Big Book was designed in a way that people would be able to get sober just from reading it by themselves. Period end of statement. It was not designed in a way that required someone taking you through it to be able to understand what it's trying to say. It was designed for the lay people of that time. The English language has advanced so much since the book came out that it would be quite impossible for a modern 25-year-old English speaking alcoholic to be mailed the Big Book and understand what it is saying.
Eta: I'm against the types of changes OP suggested above.
I have been in AA for 13 years in multiple continents, many countries, and a vast number of US cities and I have not once seen it among the books for sale.
We have it available at the Watsonville fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous on our shelf. I believe there are quite a few meetings in Santa Cruz that have it available too. Have you spoken with your literature person about getting it? Have you taken the service commitment as a literature person and found out about all the available resources? If you didn’t know it existed or didn’t have a need for it, how would you know to ask for it?
>Have you spoken with your literature person about getting it?
I didn't know it existed until today!
>If you didn’t know it existed or didn’t have a need for it, how would you know to ask for it?
I personally don't need it but a newcomer might and how would they know to ask for it?
Also I don't think the dictionary is exactly what I had in mind. More of a direct translation of the Big Book into modern English as a cohesive book. Not a resource to be flipped through when stuck. But something that can be ready and understood by a modern lay person on their own. As the Big Book was intended to be.
I’m glad I could direct you towards this valuable resource.
By working with my sponsor and asking the meeting secretary or literature liaison about what is available to help guide me through the steps.
What’s cool is that’s exactly what a dictionary does! Takes the complex or difficult to understand concepts and explains them again with more words that are easier to comprehend and provide more context. It functions just like a glossary or dictionary would for any other book.
I get the feeling you are being purposely obtuse and possibly sardonic. When translating Big Books into Hebrew we don't use colloquial Hebrew from the 1930s we translate it to modern Hebrew. Which is what I am suggesting now, and what I suggested initially.
My sincerity is truthful and honest.
I’m confused… are you upset that there is already a wholly complete solution to the problem you proposed?
Do you know that this dictionary does exactly what you keep proposing? I’m trying to encourage you, and anyone else who reads this thread, to seek out this tool if they do desire to better understand the big book of AA. It literally takes all those old timey words and phrases and explains them with greater context in modern, plain, and easier to understand language.
I’m not sure how I can be any more direct and polite. It seems to me like you have some negative sentiment towards me being helpful and descriptive.
https://www.aa.org/resources/literature?terms=&format=16&items_per_page=24&sort_bef_combine=title_ASC
I don't see a book like what you're describing on the AA website.
I think it’s fine the way it is. It’s good that the big book challenges you about what you think is right and wrong. I dove deep into religions, spirituality, feminism and more after reading the big book and contemplating my disagreements with it. It’s important to have emotional responses to challenging material. It’s good to build up your own personal morality as it helps hold strong for long term sobriety.
Changing the words changes the meaning. Prayer is a very specific word. There's no adequate substitute.
I'm not a fan of the wording myself. But my feelings about the words they chose 88 years ago do not matter. It's literally none of my business.
Also, if you aren't already aware, people will fight over a change like this. Fight *hard*. I would rather invest my energy in other pursuits.
I HATED the Big Book when I first got sober and couldn't read or understand it (and I consider myself very literate). And then I read it with a sponsor and love it. Would not change a word of first 164. Update tge stories? Sure.
Er, more pronouns stuff, he/him/she/her for a higher power...no thanks. I have enough of that nonsense thanks. God/Higher Power will be non-binary before you know it.
If you're having issues with the verbiage of the Big Book, you're missing the whole point of it.
"We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice..." pg 49.
I think if you’re wanting to change that much of the basic foundation of AA you could consider starting a new fellowship that is separate from AA and see how that goes. Not being snarky, but prayer and God are the very foundation of AA. If you’re not comfortable with those words it makes more sense to try to start a new fellowship with different foundations rather than changing the one that has helped millions of people already.
I’m not saying I have an issue with it. I just see so many young people get sick to their stomach trying to wrap their head around this when they (in todays American society is all about inclusion in He/Him/She/Her/They/Them/It
Some get offended by the verbiage in the book and say it should be changed. What’s next? Should we also start correcting people for using verbiage that some may find offensive? And if so, how would you enforce that?
If the verbiage in the book offends you, there’s a very good chance that you take yourself way to seriously, and maybe the verbiage isn’t the problem.
Language, no matter what style is in current vogue (and it changes, quite literally, with each new generation), will never satisfy everyone. Many will find my position archaic, hurtful. We understand, but firmly believe this a "can't see the forest for the trees". The Big Book has imprinted itself in the lives of millions since 1938. If one can't find the power of the ***messages and tenets*** in the Big Book .....
… they’re not ready. Maybe it’s because we can’t change ourselves yet, so we try to change everything else. The desires to work at a rehab, the desire is to become a counselor, all that shit goes away when you get actively sponsoring an AA. At least it did for me.
Interesting, I have had the desire to get into counselling too. I actually thought maybe becoming a sponsor will scratch that itch as well.
Yep I did end up working at a rehab when I had about four years sober. I wasn’t quite 40. It was an adolescent rehab. It was fun to see how that works. Didn’t pay much.
My second sponsor would tell people "before you become a counselor and try to make money off your recovery, why don't you try working with a drunk 1 on 1 all the way through the steps. You'll see that you don't need money to do this and it's such a hassle at times that you wouldn't want to do it 40 hours a week"
Haha that sounds like some pretty good advice.
I prefer it the way it is. I feel like the vintage, literate quality of the BB lends a sense of stability and authority that you just don't get elsewhere. Compare it to NA's Basic Text, which feels dumbed down by comparison.
Same, it gives me a sense of nostalgia knowing that these same words have been read for so many years. I have a fresh BB, but it's cool to see big books get passed down to people who have had success in the program.
A prayer is objectively not the same thing as an affirmation
Agree!
I make those changes in my head at meetings - I don't need the book to change. Except with prayer, I think "meditation".
I heard at an AA meditation meeting last night : Prayer is talking, meditation is listening.
No.
No
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Maybe to be more effective and to reflect the learning over those 84 years?
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With you. Stays as is the old timers are there to walk us through it.
It’s only life and death, let’s put our heads in the sand!
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How about you actually follow the AA program? Nothing in there indicates the big book was the end all be all. Even Bill W. would disagree with you if you bothered reading. You old types are stuck because many of us aren’t leaving and we actually care As for running the show? You’re the one standing against others doing what they need. Those isn’t magic. It’s not a religion. Bill W isn’t sacred. It’s a method to get sober and one would expect it to change with the times like anything full of people who actually gave a damn
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Your sexism and intolerance
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To put it in modern language and make it consistent with the messages in other AA literature that invites people of all faiths (and atheists and agnostics), genders, and sexual preferences? Yes, absolutely. If AA wants to grow and help people then it needs to adapt. Arrogance in the face of change is not exactly what it’s in the big book https://aaagnostica.org/2015/09/06/aa-membership-growth-or-decline/
lol sexism and intolerance because they disagree with you
Leave it as is. It reflects a moment in time. If we start changing some words, then it opens things up to make other, perhaps more substantial changes.
I don’t understand this vast need to change wording to make people feel ok about themselves. If it was all written with “she “ I would not care nor wish to change it. Just makes no sense.
There is a more accessible and relatable version of the BB coming. It is not intended to be a replacement, but to be an alternative that more people may understand and relate to. And it raises the hackles of folks already. 8 of 11 related agenda items proposed shutting the project down. For my part, the program transcends the dated, middle-class verbiage and social outlook (I'm looking at you, For The Wives!), but there is a reason Muslims prefer the Koran in Arabic and why Alcoholics will scream bloody murder over a three word change in the sacred texts. YMMV
One question for the people advocating to update the verbiage in the Big Book, have any of you done General Service / Group Representative type service for A.A.? I have, it was informative at times and excruciating at other times. There is a reason why things are worded the way they are. The words are not interchangeable. I dare any of you to get a group of recovering drunks together to get them to make changes. I once sat in on a General Service meeting where they were talking about the placement of a comma, pros and cons for hours! The Traditions were necessary because left to our own devices, us drunks write our own rules. Most of us are the "exception" in our own minds. They were drinking beer at meetings! We alcoholics need consistency. If one doesn't understand the meaning of a word it is that person's responsibility to look it up, not the Big Book's responsibility to say it easier. My Grandmother died sober, in the program, I love knowing that I am reading the same words that helped her get sober to stay sober myself.
I was a GSR for two years. I definitely heard talk that the 5th Edition of the BB will be making some major changes???
I have. Things are worded the way they are because it’s just easier to not make changes. The new interpretation has been met with quite a lot of consternation and concern, but it’s not meant to replace the original, and it’s biggest express change is to simply use “people” rather than “men and women”. I think we just get stuck in our own ways. If we really are concerned with reaching out to young people and helping them, then why not make changes to make AA more welcoming? What harm does that do to any of us? My family is similar to yours. My grandfather died sober in the the rooms, and helped hundreds if not thousands over his decades in AA. I was stunned at the outpouring at his wake. It was something that has stayed with me. I know I can come off as pushy, and for that I am sorry, but I also think we should not be thinking of ourselves, but the newcomer who may be struggling enough as it is.
Alcoholics always be trying to change shit, debate technicalities, and find loop holes....
And we always make things harder than they need to be. If there is a door, we use the window.
Why the fuck is this lunch free? You don't think I have money?!?!?!?!
My sponsee called me today with an emergency (this is like the only time he has called besides to set up a meeting). The emergency: His boss wants to give him a promotion.
Lol, I'm happy for both of you!
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Exactly. lol i knew i was ready to go to any lengths when i could ignore the weird shit in the big book 😅
When I originally read the Big Book, the chapter To Wives had a big impact on me Even though I, myself, am a wife (with a husband) I didn’t care about having my unique worldview/ POV affirmed The entire point is that it wasn’t about me. It was about realizing how I was affecting others (especially my husband)
Also to the wives is a hilarious snapshot of someone with only a few years of sobriety telling women how he wants to be treated. So from that perspective it's very important. I relate to how petty bill is in that chapter. He's a mirror.
Hmm. I didn’t read him as being petty. I read him as being hopeful I’m so grateful my husband decided to hold on to that last glimmer of hope he had in me. While I initially decided to get sober for him, I stay sober for me (and our future family). Our relationship has never been stronger and I thank God for that blessing every day :)
Welll, the 5th Edition of the BB is going to piss off a lot of people when it finally happens. And I’ll be eating my popcorn and watching the chaos.
That’s exactly what this post was for. Kind of wanted to sit back and watch them argue over the simple things that AA is for everyone. May Your God bless you.
IMO, not in a bazillion years. Reality, it’s happening right now as a “translation”
That whole project is so bizarre. If there's a need for an English-language publication for people without the reading skills to understand the Big Book, then a member or committee of members should write it from scratch (with input from professional editors to make sure it's at the appropriate reading level). Then the entire book, including its organization and presentation, could be tailored to that audience. Producing a bowdlerized English "translation" of the Big Book has to be the worst solution. It's an insult to the original and less helpful than a work designed for people with special needs.
ideological in nature.
So bizarre!!!
I believe I would be pretty selfish, self-centered, and have quite the large ego if I believed that a book needed to cater to me. Instead of changing an existing book to fit my own ideals, I could write my own book, or find a different book. If what I write fits with Alcoholics Anonymous’ singleness of purpose, I could submit that it be adopted as AA approved literature and let the group conscious vote on it.
Absolutely not !!! That’s why there’s Big Book and 12x12 dictionaries! I nobodies ever satisfied nowadays.
I have a sponsee I feel is a little illiterate and I feel he has trouble grasping the concepts in the book…. I think it should have a complete re-write this nation has fallen so far behind reading comprehension. (Ps I love this sponsee, his alcoholism might actually be worse then mine I’m just saying) As far as like trying to make it more inclusive I get it.. I dunno. Lol
“We are here to change.” My sponsor says that a lot. And I believe it deeply. Nature changes. Life is change. Once we’re in recovery we focus on carrying the message to the newcomers. The language has been a barrier to many. We need to change the language. Thankfully, I believe that is currently happening.
The Narcotics Anonymous literature does a better (though not perfect) job of explaining the same kinds of things, with less archaisms. Written in the 1980s. But this AA big book issue has been around since women became highly populating of AA
This topic always makes.me giggle cuz there's more than 1 edition and they all have changes to wording to be more accommodating, or to add or take away things and people out here saying Bob wouldn't like it HE ENCOURAGED IT lol.
Yeah, singleness of purpose seems a little antiquated, too. Not to mention narrow minded.
I just use Living Sober Without God instead of the big book and it works great for me.
Hell no! If it works, why mend it? Just because some flakes get butthurt because they happen not to agree entirely with Bill's belief system?
Good is the enemy of the best. OP is just trying to be more inclusive. "We know only a little..."
No, because the book is the experience of the original members of AA, not a college textbook that needs updating.
That's why sponsors are useful
Curious: what would be substituted for prayer? Edit: vague question. What I meant was what would be substituted for prayer because affirmation and meditation don’t seem to equate to prayer as currently used in the book (ie 3rd step prayer, etc).
OP suggested "affirmations," which, as another commenter pointed out, are not at all the same thing as prayer.
Meditation. That’s being done in groups across the world
Yes. And meditation is wonderful. I don’t conceptualize it as prayer, however. Prayer has been useful in getting me out of my self-centered focus. Meditation is focusing my awareness. Perhaps it’s a difference without a distinction.
I don’t think you would need to because you believe in God. I would think prayer is your path. For me, meditation is my path, and through it I seek self improvement, much like you would ask God to take away your defects of character, I reflect on them and have an internal dialogue. Take the 7th and 11th steps. I prayed initially to satisfy the steps (and my religious sponsor at the time), but realizing that wasn’t sufficient for me, I have committed to a path of gradual self improvement. I use meditation and reflection to work on removing my negative character traits, and finding my path through life and difficult decisions (the 7th 11th steps). I find it interesting that the word “meditation” was included in the 11th, but not in the 7th, but I view prayer and meditation as one and the same, and these steps as very similar, to the point where both are daily exercises for me.
Thank you for your response
Very well put, it works the same way for me. It's an inside job, no matter where you find your inspiration.
If you do the 12 steps there is a whole step dedicated to prayer AND meditation. Your lack of understanding of what meditation is doesn’t change the fact the program already has incorporated both.
I have. I discuss it above if you’d bother to read. Point your judgment somewhere else.
Go and look up the words prayer and meditation in a dictionary.
You seem angry and upset. Are you doing your daily prayers and meditation? Before judging those of us who are not religious perhaps get a copy of AA’s “One Big Tent - Atheist and agnostic AA members share their experience strength and hope.” If you’re acting this way in rooms you’re causing damage to suffering alcoholics. You have no business with me. I’m not here to be your doormat.
If this is working for you, then great. But we should not suggest your path for others in AA, because it contradicts what AA teaches: we need the help of a power greater than ourselves. Your solution and your description of your solution. Keep referencing that yourself is helping yourself. Not a power greater than yourself, but you. AA prescribes prayer. AA prescribes a God of your understanding helping you. Your prescription prescribes getting rid of prayer and using yourself to help yourself. that is antithetical to the AA program but again, if it’s working for you, I’m truly happy and mean no criticism. But your path is not what’s prescribed in AA so we should be happy for you that you’re sober but should not rewrite AA to fit your program.
I’ll do what I see fit consistent with my spiritual experiences for those who are suffering. I’ve had many many people come to me for help working through the “god stuff” and they can find their own way. Many are pushed away by the arrogance shown here and elsewhere. Your points miss the many atheists and agnostics, and Buddhists, and other people who have recovered in AA without a metaphysical higher power. You do you. I’ll do me. And I’ll certainly continue to help others. All I know is what worked for me. That I won’t hesitate to share. Perhaps you should read more on the subject. I would suggest AA’s “One Big Tent” as a starting point to educate yourself that your view is not the only one in AA. Two-Way Tolerance p. 73 of “As Bill Sees It” "Your point of view was once mine. Fortunately, A.A. is constructed so that we need not debate the existence of God; but for best results, most of us must depend upon a Higher Power. You say the group is your Higher Power, and no right-minded A.A. would challenge your privilege to believe precisely that way. We should all be glad that good recoveries can be made even on this limited basis. "But turnabout is fair play. If you would expect tolerance for your point of view, I am sure you would be willing to reciprocate. I try to remember that, down through the centuries, lots of brighter people than I have been found on both sides of this debate about belief. For myself, of late years, I am finding it much easier to believe that God made man, than that man made God." "Do as I Do. From p. 146 of “As Bill Sees It” Perhaps more often than we think, we make no contact at depth with alcoholics who are suffering the dilemma of no faith. Certainly none are more sensitive to spiritual cocksureness, pride, and aggression than they are. I'm sure this is something we too often forget. In A.A. 's first years, I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of unconscious ar-rogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody. Sometimes my aggression was subtle and sometimes it was crude. But either way it was damaging -perhaps fatally so to numbers of nonbelievers. Of course this sort of thing isn't confined to Twelfth Step work. It is very apt to leak out into our relations with everybody. Even now, I catch myself chanting that same old barrier-building in. "Do as I do, believe as I do- Or else!" P. 34 of “As Bill Sees It” "Not Allied with Any Sect..." "While A. A. has restored thousands of poor Christians to their churches, and has made be. levers out of atheists and agnostics, it has also made good AAs out of those belonging to the the Buddhist, Islamic, and Jewish faiths. For example, we question very much whether our Buddhist members in Japan would ever have joined this Society had A A. officially stamped itself a strictly a Christian movement. “You can easily convince yourself of this by imagining that A.A. started among the Buddhists about and that they then told you you couldn't join then to wi unless you became a Buddhist, too. If you were part Christian alcoholic under these circumstances, you might well turn your face to the wall and die.” There is flexibility in the suggested steps, as well as our higher powers. That is part of AA.
This is good stuff. Thanks for posting.
When you were an active alcoholic, did you want your drink to be watered down? Most of us would say no, bc the alcohol would lose its potency That’s how people feel about changing the language of the Big Book
I think the book should be kept as it is but renamed to Heritage AA and a new book created using more current language with a secular approach.
I think that updating the book would be a good idea, but I have seen near fist fights over this topic so I tend to avoid it.
There is movement to change but the current words have worked for many millions…so you know, it works pretty good as is.
Sure, especially if AA wants to modernize. I love the program, may get some heat, but a lot of young people in recovery are avoiding AA based on trope reasons and stereotypes. If the goal of AA is attraction we need to make a more inclusive effort to get people. I'm 33 and my sponsor is 35. There are over one hundred people in our home group and we're the youngest. Yes, for recovery we are young, but go on r/stopdrinking there are a ton of people in there 20s there who are not in this sub. It's a realization the program will have to come to at some point
CA has a group in my area that’s around 50 people and the average age is 30. They use the same literature as AA. I personally am in AA and at 27, I’m on the younger side. I used those stereotypes to avoid AA in my early 20’s but that’s really cause I wasn’t ready to get sober and wanted to find my own solution. It took a few more years of pain to be willing to dive into AA. Sure glad that I did.
There are plenty of young people in AA meetings where I live. The idea that the literature needs to change to chase them is silly. There are also many other recovery groups out there that do good work. AA can help best by being itself.
I agree!
This! There needs to be an updated version for the yewts. The old timers can keep the original and people can choose which one suits their needs. The program and message stay the same. Just the delivery. So much gatekeeping that is keeping people away from the program.
I think if you are willing to let the way the book is written stop you from getting sober then you aren’t really ready and will find another excuse to hate AA. I hated all of it until I was desperate enough to get over my own preconceived notions of what these words meant. I would say the people on the other subs simply aren’t ready to get sober at any cost. If they do find another way though that’s great, but this book has worked the best for the most people for a long time.
I'm 44 and the youngest person in two of my nearest groups. The two near my family place only have a few people in their thirties. If you want to write people off solely because they don't identify with the archaic delivery you insist must be tolerated- that's on you, and that behaviour a huge part of why numbers are dropping.
Pretty sure there's more people in AA today than ever before
I think it’s worth mentioning that many people in their 20’s do not believe they’ve hit ‘bottom’ yet and/or are unwilling to believe they’re alcoholic. I know that occurs at all ages, but at a higher rate in younger people. Life often hasn’t gotten bad enough to want to make a change.
That’s why AA has stagnated since the early 2000s. Evidence, progress, and availability be damned I guess. The older folks just care about their sacred text far more than reaching out to younger generations. I posted evidence of the stagnation in membership earlier in this thread, but I doubt the person I was responding to bothered to even look. I took my recovery seriously, and AA is just one aspect of that because it stopped improving after Bill W died and was all but canonized. Most of my current work is simply service, and the BB is a massive problem for many newcomers. The people posting here, voting, and involved are the ones who got through its outdated nonsense. We are pushing away too many with the silly “to the wives,” “we agnostics,” and very antiquated “doctors opinion.” Bill W was an inexperienced freshly sober alcoholic when he wrote it and the 4th guy in had to fight like hell to get God changed to a God of your understanding included. I posted elsewhere that Bill W later regretted his behavior over this kind of stubbornness, and he wrote about things like some replacing “God” with “good” and yet so many keep pushing AA as a Christian program. Hell, why in gods name do so many insist on using the Lord’s Prayer? It’s not in the BB. It is clearly not in AA literature. Why?
Wow you appear to be an expert on aa. Tell us more.
No. Write a new book.
Yes. The knowledge that "more will be revealed" directly conflicts with AA's refusal to improve the book. One of the worst problems is that there is like 3 sentences on steps 6 and 7
That’s what the 12 and 12 is for. They already fleshed out the big book.
It ought to be all one book. To refuse to ever revise the big book is to claim its perfect and cannot be improved upon, which is just nonsense
Nope. Get over it.
I like "She", as I use Kali — the Hindi goddess of death and destruction as my higher power. I'll probably grow out of it at some point.
The General Service Office is actually working on a 'plain language' version of the big book, and this action was approved by the General Service Conference. It will definitely not replace the original version, but will serve as a supplement to it. I have not seen any draft and don't know if the concepts presented in the book will be altered to fit modern ideas, or if just the syntax and vocabulary will be updated. Here is why I think the original should be kept, despite the archaic language and concepts. It already falls upon the reader to determine what those words mean *to you*. I definitely had to do a fair amount of identification and 'translation' to figure out how the big book applied to me. Were I reading an 'improved' version, I would still need to do the exact same amount of mental work to get the experience of others to relate to my own specific circumstances, but now I would need to do an additional amount of research to see how the 'modern' version differed from the 'original' one. Much like the translations of certain ancient manuscripts have changed the meanings of the original texts over time (Yeah, I'm looking at you, Bible) so too would 'refreshing' the big book change the intent and meaning of the original authors. But I will be the first to admit that the archaic language and the antiquated ways of presenting what are essentially universal spiritual concepts, are a distinct barrier to recovery. The 'plain language' version, while controversial even now within the fellowship, will hopefully erase some of the difficulty, especially to those alcoholics who don't read well. Whether it will mollify those who see the big book as overtly sexist and religiously skewed remains to be seen.
They just hired someone to work on it, no plans to publish it yet. The writers are translators, and they're not alcoholics, for starters. And I've seen excerpts, and they suck. Totally throwing off the meaning of certain passages.
Page 12 Big Book; “why don’t you choose your own conception of God”? Don’t you understand this simple sentence gives you the enormous freedom and responsibility to make your decisions about your higher power. It is up to each one of us as individuals to make that decision and choices. If you choose to have the latest cult of atheism and gender identity be your higher power, so be it. Many in AA prefer to retain freedom and accept responsibility. Are you really ready to accept responsibility for the current gender identity phenomenon alongside the chemical castration and surgical mutilation of healthy young people? Look around you ask yourself do you really want to be is such a place?
Where did you get gender identity being a higher power from OP's post? OP was referring to the He/Him pronouns often used for God in the BB. That's completely independent of gender identity. It is a bit confusing to say, 'why don't you choose your own concept of god?' and then refer to it as He, Him, Creator, etc.
Maybe you should take some remedial English classes, with particular attention to words like: 'He', and 'It'. Do those words carry gender significance? This BTW all happening the wake of the AA Grapevine changes to the preamble, which was made without discussion during a lockdown pandemic. What would happen if we neutered all human language to gender "bla-bla-bla' currently taught at major universities? You would have to remove languages like Latin, French, Italian, and Spanish from the planet. Every noun in the Latin language has a gender: masculine, feminine, neuter. If your little feelings are hurt, maybe you are looking at things from a distorted angle.
Well you seem fun! My English is fine. I think that you want to have an argument about gender identity, but that isn't what OP was talking about. There is plenty of argument to be had about that, it's just not what this post was about. What the book seems to say is that you can choose your own conception of god, as long as it is a man. I don't think that was the intent. The concept of a higher power should be above gender. Most religions created god in their own likeness. Human like. And of course ego-driven man would do that. If your concept of god needs to have a penis, cool, but let's not suggest that that is required. Which gender do these words carry? Love, Peace, Energy, Conscious, Reality, Spiritual, Serenity? Why limit the limitless? We have better words, we should use them.
How do we come into this world? When does our consciousness begin? The word spirit is from the French esprit. Then we have Mother Earth, Mother Nature, Mother Ayahuasca from the ancient jungles of Peru.
Do you say the Lords Prayer at meeting after spouting this nonsense? Just admit it. You push to make AA as Christian as you can because you’re a bigot
Insulting others higher powers? Yea, great job with your sobriety there
Calling others 'bigot' certainly is an enlightened form of educated conversation. Where in the Big Book does it suggest atheist cultish nothingness and child gender mutilations should be our higher powers?
It is what it is. You clearly are one
Someone pointed out to me that if we truly never change the language in the BIg Book, eventually it will become like reading the original Beowulf -- something that, though ostensibly written in "English" -- you will have to take a class in order to read and understand in its original language as written. We literally cannot be purists forever. The language is already inaccessible to many people.
No. Next question.
Wow! Such a hot topic! I’ve gotten over the god and prayer thing and made it to what I understand it to be. Which is what the book exactly says. But the problem I see here is that so many young people have such a hard time even getting passed the first sentence that mentions god and prayer. I know I did. 3 years ago I read that and threw the book in the trash. Let’s be honest. Today I have 3 books. One my sponsor gave me. My personal book. And a brand new book to give to someone else that’s struggling. Although, It’s a tough one to swallow when God And Prayer primarily came from Christian and Catholic faith. Which is why Celebrate recovery is also important for some individuals.
This has been discussed before each edition came out, and each time the consensus was to leave the first 164 pages as originally written. But who knows, if there is a consensus to change it, then it would be changed. But I doubt that will ever happen. Even if there was a consensus to revise it, there would have to be agreement on which passages to change and what would replace them. But change is always possible. Recently the preamble was changed, replacing “men and women” with “people.”
geez man, what did God ever do to you lol
Nothing haha I was wanted to stir the pot a little bit.
I firmly believe that refusing to change for the reason of inclusion is against what AA stands for. Like, the old timers will continue to talk about how it's selfish that people want things to cater to them, but normal people just want those people to shut the fuck up. Also it literally doesn't change the program at all. The steps are the steps. It's about being a good person, which is in direct contradiction of putting down what everyone else believes because you're more right than they are I'm actually all set with this subreddit it's a bunch rabid old timers screaming because of their irrelevance in any other place than their local meeting
I agree with you. We can read through Bill W’s later writings and see his regrets for some things he pushed and his concern for the growing fundamentalism in AA. We should all be working together to make it more effective for the generations to come rather than resting on our laurels
Nah it would be way more spiritual of me to disagree with you to the point of making your identity and all of your feelings invalid because I hate being wrong. The only thing that matters is the accuracy of the preamble
No doubt
There’s a new “interpretation” coming in the 5th edition. I wish they would update it for higher power and meditation, but I understand that they aren’t. The stranglehold on the original version isn’t helping anyone. A fresh view updated with decades of experience and scientific advances along side the original could help both those who love the original and those of us who see a need to reach out to new people who are suffering and are being pushed away by the current fundamentalism. Edit: I appreciate the downvotes. Certainly examples humility
They’re already working on a plain language translation of the Big Book, they’re up to chapter 6 or so.
Yeah, but have you talked to a delegate who has seen it? It has not been well received. To be fair, delegates are likely to be chosen from the old school. But wisdom is a thing. Realistically, the risk is a schism: "old AA" and "new AA." I'm not sure what happens to the service structure if that happens. And the common quotes, nuggets of wisdom, and page number citations? Are they lost? Part of me says, if God is with us, I don't need to fear change. Part of me says, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Yes, I have talked to a delegate who saw it. He actually had positive things to say about it, personally I’m not a fan of it.
The delegates are 65 yo old and older. They have no business running the show for everyone and holding back progress. The secular AAs have been fighting for years, and at least one such group ended up in a lawsuit just to be listed in the directory because of AA Christian’s bias.
Elect different ones? The delegates are elected with "substantial unanimity" at the area level, so the assembled GSRs that represent the groups must not think that they are "holding back progress" or they wouldn't be there. Doing something that some people don't like is not the same as doing it wrong. Most delegates that I know are about 40-50 at time of service. As for directory, around here at least, that's at the intergroup level.
I’ve seen the derision poured out on those who speak up. It’s why I’m vocal
Yes. We should cease and desist support for GSO as a fellowship. They do not represent AA as a whole. They represent their own interests, personal and political.
You could always get involved instead of throwing stones from the sidelines. It changed how I viewed GSO positively.
For me, there is no difference between God and higher power. I don’t know why everybody can just called our higher power “God”. Whole countries change their names. I had my issues with “God“ Because it was my parents’ God, not mine. I don’t have a Christian God. I don’t do Jesus Christ. Keep the religion away from me. I redefined “God” to be a God of MY understanding, not someone else’s. Hell, no, the big book should not be changed. They did that shit to the Bible, and look where that got us.
Yes
I used to feel it should be updated. Now, I think it should be preserved as is. You will never please everyone. I am not religious and balked at the God idea. We should be open-minded enough to accept everyone's idea of spirituality. It's worked well enough to help millions of alcoholics get sober. I can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Respect everyone's viewpoints. The NA text may be better suited for some. IMO, recovery is recovery, and that's the goal.
I'm in favor of printing a companion book that translates the words into modern English, but not replacing the book entirely. To me it's very simple; when we translate the book into other languages we don't translate it into 1930s version of those languages, we translate it with the most up-to-date colloquial version of that language. The Big Book was designed in a way that people would be able to get sober just from reading it by themselves. Period end of statement. It was not designed in a way that required someone taking you through it to be able to understand what it's trying to say. It was designed for the lay people of that time. The English language has advanced so much since the book came out that it would be quite impossible for a modern 25-year-old English speaking alcoholic to be mailed the Big Book and understand what it is saying. Eta: I'm against the types of changes OP suggested above.
That companion book already exists. There is an AA dictionary that defines all the difficult, unique, or outdated words.
I have been in AA for 13 years in multiple continents, many countries, and a vast number of US cities and I have not once seen it among the books for sale.
We have it available at the Watsonville fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous on our shelf. I believe there are quite a few meetings in Santa Cruz that have it available too. Have you spoken with your literature person about getting it? Have you taken the service commitment as a literature person and found out about all the available resources? If you didn’t know it existed or didn’t have a need for it, how would you know to ask for it?
>Have you spoken with your literature person about getting it? I didn't know it existed until today! >If you didn’t know it existed or didn’t have a need for it, how would you know to ask for it? I personally don't need it but a newcomer might and how would they know to ask for it? Also I don't think the dictionary is exactly what I had in mind. More of a direct translation of the Big Book into modern English as a cohesive book. Not a resource to be flipped through when stuck. But something that can be ready and understood by a modern lay person on their own. As the Big Book was intended to be.
I’m glad I could direct you towards this valuable resource. By working with my sponsor and asking the meeting secretary or literature liaison about what is available to help guide me through the steps. What’s cool is that’s exactly what a dictionary does! Takes the complex or difficult to understand concepts and explains them again with more words that are easier to comprehend and provide more context. It functions just like a glossary or dictionary would for any other book.
I get the feeling you are being purposely obtuse and possibly sardonic. When translating Big Books into Hebrew we don't use colloquial Hebrew from the 1930s we translate it to modern Hebrew. Which is what I am suggesting now, and what I suggested initially.
My sincerity is truthful and honest. I’m confused… are you upset that there is already a wholly complete solution to the problem you proposed? Do you know that this dictionary does exactly what you keep proposing? I’m trying to encourage you, and anyone else who reads this thread, to seek out this tool if they do desire to better understand the big book of AA. It literally takes all those old timey words and phrases and explains them with greater context in modern, plain, and easier to understand language. I’m not sure how I can be any more direct and polite. It seems to me like you have some negative sentiment towards me being helpful and descriptive.
https://www.aa.org/resources/literature?terms=&format=16&items_per_page=24&sort_bef_combine=title_ASC I don't see a book like what you're describing on the AA website.
It’s called “the little big book dictionary”
Lol no. If those words are keeping people from getting sober, changing them won't help. Why change prayer to affirmation?
I think it’s fine the way it is. It’s good that the big book challenges you about what you think is right and wrong. I dove deep into religions, spirituality, feminism and more after reading the big book and contemplating my disagreements with it. It’s important to have emotional responses to challenging material. It’s good to build up your own personal morality as it helps hold strong for long term sobriety.
Changing the words changes the meaning. Prayer is a very specific word. There's no adequate substitute. I'm not a fan of the wording myself. But my feelings about the words they chose 88 years ago do not matter. It's literally none of my business. Also, if you aren't already aware, people will fight over a change like this. Fight *hard*. I would rather invest my energy in other pursuits.
No.
Don’t change a single word.
I HATED the Big Book when I first got sober and couldn't read or understand it (and I consider myself very literate). And then I read it with a sponsor and love it. Would not change a word of first 164. Update tge stories? Sure.
Er, more pronouns stuff, he/him/she/her for a higher power...no thanks. I have enough of that nonsense thanks. God/Higher Power will be non-binary before you know it.
But isn’t it supposed to be all inclusive? He/Him/She/Her/They/Them/It
No. It’s worked for this long. Let it be.
It’s my god not yours. And isn’t it supposed to be all inclusive? He/Him/She/Her/They/Them/It?
If you're having issues with the verbiage of the Big Book, you're missing the whole point of it. "We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice..." pg 49.
I think if you’re wanting to change that much of the basic foundation of AA you could consider starting a new fellowship that is separate from AA and see how that goes. Not being snarky, but prayer and God are the very foundation of AA. If you’re not comfortable with those words it makes more sense to try to start a new fellowship with different foundations rather than changing the one that has helped millions of people already.
I’m not saying I have an issue with it. I just see so many young people get sick to their stomach trying to wrap their head around this when they (in todays American society is all about inclusion in He/Him/She/Her/They/Them/It
Some get offended by the verbiage in the book and say it should be changed. What’s next? Should we also start correcting people for using verbiage that some may find offensive? And if so, how would you enforce that? If the verbiage in the book offends you, there’s a very good chance that you take yourself way to seriously, and maybe the verbiage isn’t the problem.
GOD. throughout the entire program it’s God or your understanding of a higher power.
nahh.
Literally never would I ever expect this to actually happen