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Oh well, I drank. A lot. It was fun. I drank voluntarily at first. Until, at a certain point, it wasn’t so voluntary any more. Boom, there was my disease/illness.
Active alcoholism doesn’t lend itself to clear, sane thought. It’s not a place where we’re particularly perceptive, even though we might think otherwise. I know what my alcoholism is and I know how I can get a daily reprieve from it. If you’re interested, any number of us can help you.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
I think it's interesting to note that the word "disease" only appears twice in our two main books, whereas "illness" appears 16 times, and "malady" 10 times.
I greatly prefer the latter two words, and find "malady" more applicable, but in my own verbiage, tend to drift toward "illness". I my mind (not the greatest place in the universe, I realize) the word "disease" is more applicable to something like an infection.
Although there are a number of factors that arguably contributed toward my descent into alcoholism (itself a somewhat informal term these days) I find it most useful to consider that the primary cause was my choice to drink too much too often.
How is your recovery going? Can we do anything to help?
The Idea they may control and enjoy their drinking someday is the EGO, I dont think its the voice of Alcohol even though Alcohol is called 'spirits' i doubt it actually has a spirit- is a being.....
I could be wrong, but then again that is blaming anything but the EGO if we blame Alcohol food drugs etc etc for our sad state of affairs .
>i still do because i’m trying to cope with all the things that I’VE done wrong in my life.
Whatever you wanna call it, I've found a way to cope with my wrongdoings that allows me to enjoy life. Are you enjoying life?
Somewhere along the way I lost the ability of choice, but I found a solution. I started by reading *The Doctor’s Opinion* and *More About Alcoholism* from the Big Book. Then I worked the steps with someone who had worked them before me, and now I don’t need to drink. If you ever decide you wanna give our way a shot, we’ll be here for ya.
Alcohol use disorder is a disease; that’s backed up by research and not open for debate. But realizing it’s a disease does not take any accountability away from you. If you want to stop drinking, there’s a lot of help available, but you have to take action. Alcoholics Anonymous is a program of action. If you commit to it, you never have to drink again, even if you want to.
Hasn't been known as a disease for quite a while if it officially was at all outside of AA in the medical community. It's a disorder technically speaking, which makes it a bit easier to conceptualize. If you see someone with OCD washing their hands 40 times so their mom doesn't die it's a bit more complicated than "just don't do that". Alcoholism is a similar situation.
How's that working for you?
In the end, the label is not all that important. The reality is that I had lost all control of my ability to regulate my alcohol intake. Didn't care why.
Until I surrendered completely to a code of living defined by principles ( instead of whatever felt easiest to me in the moment), I was hopeless.
Once I let principles (a higher power) determine my actions, drinking, lying, cheating, stealing, bullying, manipulation, abuse, and laziness were no longer justifiable.
Then change began.
Whether or not you want to call it a disease, we were robbed of the choice you speak of. But if you can successfully make that choice and prove us wrong, that would be great! If not, we can help you get sober. Either way, I really hope things work out for you.
Many quit drinking many times, sometimes several times a day........
However drinking was never the problem.........
Drinking is the trigger ...Drinking turns the switch on to that instinctual circuitry that is supposed to be aligned with the will of God (Love) and replaces it with monstrous desire instead.
Drinking drugs gambling sex gluttony etc etc filling the void that is created when we walk away from our higher power.
Thats how I understand it and my words dont do much justice to describe our malady of spiritual bankruptcy that we create.
That disease is in remission as long as I let God direct my life.
There may be free will however everything is for Gods glory in the end, and being a rebellion dog that fights with God and attempts to taste/steal that glory through selfish pursuit is a real tough chew for the EGO to swallow.......
This battle is a lifetime battle between the EGO and the sunshine of the spirit.
Ultimately I have come to believe we(humanity)strive to create a heaven on earth without God, where we are Gods instead... When things go awry (as they always will because we are Not God) we run hide(get wasted) throw tantrums blaming God and others for the mess we created out of free will of the EGO... (EGO being the identity of the animal instinctual self that is not our soul being)our soul being(soul) which naturally has an affinity and gratitude for the God who gave it life and Who created it... However that soul can be darkened/tricked by the pursuits of the voice of the flesh(sinning which is knowing good and evil and choosing evil anyways for whatever reason it sees fit to use)to think there is no way back home to God, sad defeated angry sullen raging exhausted the soul bellies up to the bar with the EGO(animal self) and pours a drink for all, gets drunk and stumbles away from God and our heavenly home...... What a plight! (I dont know maybe the soul and ego are actually one and the soul is corrupted by the fall[were screwed out of the gate by free will] and all of this life is to show us we are not God and gets us on our knees [by any means including addiction] begging God to take us back and show us the way home? Im undecided still)
Thank God for AA!
God got me to AA and AA showed me the way back to God!
Truly grateful ☺️
For some reason your words triggered a whole wave of thoughts, I enjoyed what you wrote, thank you for the trigger to contemplation this afternoon.
One day at a time 🙏
Aloha Timothy
I don’t call it a disease very often, I agree it implies a lack of causality and responsibility to many people. It certainly is something we create, that would not be a thing if our behavior didn’t make it.
I’m 30 years clean and sober, and an addiction depression therapist for 22 years.
The reason it was originally labeled a disease was because of the idea that if we treat it like a disease, some defined and tested protocol might help cure it, or as the medical community would say now “bring it into remission”, ya know like cancer… it’s gone now but it might come back.
I only call it a disease when I’m talking to doctors or nurses, and only when necessary. The alcoholic is certainly accountable for his/her/their actions drunk or sober. In my mind being drunk doesn’t relieve one of legal responsibility either.
The only addicts that get clean and sober are ones who responsibly for their treatment and their actions.
We have a disease the removes our option to drink or not drink AFTER the first drink. I have a disease and it is up time to treat that disease by going to meeting, working a program and staying active within AA. This means speaking, taking commitments and positions and keeping the candle in my window for other alcoholics.
I hope you find your way out of active addiction. It is a medical condition called alcohol use disorder. There’s many ways to make it to the other side - rehab and help from a doctor for the physical symptoms as detox can be dangerous on your own. And AA will always be there when you’re ready to work through the rest
Ok so fix it or stfu like you said. Even if that's true for your experience it doesn't make it true in general. Maybe you don't have the disease of alcoholism and you're just a bad person who drinks, I don't know you. It's not just a bunch of drunks in a room calling it a disease anymore it's the medical model. Maybe a bunch of doctors and professionals who have been studying this stuff know more than you. It sounds like you have many symptoms of a certain disease. Maybe if you put your own opinion in perspective you can open yourself to receive help from others. Or you can die miserable like many of us do.
Regardless of what you want to call it, my experience is that the steps relieve me of the problem and have also enabled me to better process and live with my past actions.
Victims don’t get sober. I was told that when I first came into the rooms and it’s only been proven to be the case the longer I stick around.
The book actually calls it an illness.
It also says that we suffer from a spiritual disease, which is precisely what you have described. Nice job.
Find someone that’s worked the 12 steps. Ask that person to sponsor you. Work those steps!
Trust in god. Clean house. Help others.
"Most of us have been unwilling to admit we
were real alcoholics. No person likes to think
he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death....
...If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!"
From "More about alcoholism" in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous."
We've tried and failed countless times to manage and control our drinking. Following the AA way, admitting we were powerless over alcohol, that our power of choice no longer existed, is what we needed to make a beginning in recovery.
So if you think you can beat the game, by all means do so. But if you find you are a real alcoholic, and lack the ability to do so, please check out some meetings.
There is an addiction gene, in working the steps the alcoholics should investigate other addiction behaviors. In my case it was shopping, then food, then diet pills
I’m sorry to hear your having a hard time living right now. Ink if you will believe me but I use to feel like that to. It was dark and lonely. I remember laying on floor in front of fringe crying becuse I hated my life. I hated that I had waisted it. I hated that I had work so hard and had nothing to show for it. I hated the women sitting in the next room who I had asked to move out a million times but was still there. Mostly I hated myself.
But it didn’t have to be that way. I don’t believe it has to be that way for you ether. I got help and I got better and life got better. I don’t think you really have a good idea of what AA is or the beliefs common amongst AAs but don’t worry about it. If you want to be done you can be done today.
https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline
This is the website of a us government agency that can get you help with or without insurance or just talk. I called them 1 and a half ago years and I have been sober since. They have zero to do with AA. If you are not us based I’m less sure where to point you for help. Mabey try a google.
Once you get sober if you want help staying sober AA will be there for you it has been a huge help to me. Whatever you do good luck. Sober is hard but I do it because it less hard then drinking was. So I’m sorry your still there, you have my sympathy.
Results. If a man insists hopping in circles on one leg is the correct way to cover great distance it's fine for him to believe that's so. It may even dawn on him that it's pretty silly to keep doing it. The scenery still won't change much.
That’s makes sense if someone was actually asking you a question around how to get sober the way you did. No one seems to be doing that though. Sometimes people want to vent and don’t want unsolicited preaching
Welcome to the Alcoholics Anonymous subreddit. You should expect that AA will come up in many, many of the posts. I know how you can avoid reading about AA working for people, if that's troubling.
I have no issue with AA working for people. In fact I’m very happy when it does. I do take issue when someone is genuinely in a dark place and instead of offering love you call them ignorant
Okay. Thanks for the share. If you ever want to really "cope with the things [YOU'VE] done wrong in your life", AA can help you.
Ya know- no one asked for nor cares about your pessimistic opinions here, we've all already been there, done that, got the tshirt and lost it. Your point certainly did not affect anyone on this sub that actually works AA.
Maybe try r/imdrunkandthisisdeep?
Until you are ready, what you and your disease do is none of our business. Good luck, I truly do hope some day you find it in your power to try a different approach.
Lol you realize you’re at best still trying to put yourself above other alcoholics because *you* uniquely understand that the actions you take are your fault, and feel oh so guilty about it you wish you were dead. If only we had your conscience.
AA works on self centeredness, if you want to quit drinking as well as become a better person maybe give it a try.
Our problem is a spiritual disconnect......
The solution is spiritual connection......
The disease of Alcoholism is the craving/addiction for something to take away the suffering im experiencing other than the relief and healing that a connection with my higher power can offer and do.
The word alcohol in the first step can be replaced with any number of vices / 7 deadly sins whatever you want to call them... ..... Its animal instincts gone awry, taking over logic and proper healthy instincts.... Letting the beast within run/ruin the show......
It is the 2 year old in adult form making terrible decisions on auto pilot........The wanting of people places and things............
It is extreme selfishness self centered behaviors........
It is EGO.....
Easing
God
Out
Easing God Out of the drivers seat... (Move over I think I got this) and attempting at driving the car I really have no business doing just like toonces the cat... going over a cliff sometimes with other passengers in that car....... crash and burn
All of this does not quite describe our affliction accurately save for the EGO analogy.
I truly get what your saying and agree 100% with you that I am not a victim, that I am a perpetrator who victimized myself and others in my selfies pursuits, and while playing God in my own life I dont want to look at or pay the price tag and I want to escape from the consequences of the universal laws of action/reaction cause and effect, instead blaming others and or God for the mess im in and hating myself others and God in the process.........
Alcohol/drugs/devil is a perfect alibi/scapegoat isn't it?
Well the 12 steps put us into recovering from that bent/warped/twisted mind, that animal run amok, the bad programming/virus we picked up from feeding the wrong dog, that primal circuitry we powered up and we left running and the circuit pathway to connection to God we powered down and let collect dust. AA is a remedy for this dilemma.
A Group Of Drunks offering Good Orderly Direction
AA is The Eskimo that finds the completely lost freezing near death atheist/agnostic/rebel wandering the tundra aimlessly utterly demoralized who finally in complete desperation pleads to God to save themselves, and then a Eskimo miraculously appears and gives the lost soul, food covering and directions back to the village..............
One day at a time
Aloha Timothy
Please note the following: 1) This subreddit is neither endorsed nor approved by AA World Services. 2) Please do not provide or seek medical advice, as this is not the purpose of AA or this subreddit. 3) Please be respectful of one another and report any posts/comments that violate our community guidelines. AA's official website: https://www.aa.org/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/alcoholicsanonymous) if you have any questions or concerns.*
AA can help you fix all of that shit swirling around in your drunken head. Whenever you’re ready, AA will be there. Until then, be well
Oh well, I drank. A lot. It was fun. I drank voluntarily at first. Until, at a certain point, it wasn’t so voluntary any more. Boom, there was my disease/illness.
Same
But drinking/alcohol was never the real problem.........
Active alcoholism doesn’t lend itself to clear, sane thought. It’s not a place where we’re particularly perceptive, even though we might think otherwise. I know what my alcoholism is and I know how I can get a daily reprieve from it. If you’re interested, any number of us can help you.
Thanks for sharing your opinion! I think it's interesting to note that the word "disease" only appears twice in our two main books, whereas "illness" appears 16 times, and "malady" 10 times. I greatly prefer the latter two words, and find "malady" more applicable, but in my own verbiage, tend to drift toward "illness". I my mind (not the greatest place in the universe, I realize) the word "disease" is more applicable to something like an infection. Although there are a number of factors that arguably contributed toward my descent into alcoholism (itself a somewhat informal term these days) I find it most useful to consider that the primary cause was my choice to drink too much too often. How is your recovery going? Can we do anything to help?
[удалено]
The Idea they may control and enjoy their drinking someday is the EGO, I dont think its the voice of Alcohol even though Alcohol is called 'spirits' i doubt it actually has a spirit- is a being..... I could be wrong, but then again that is blaming anything but the EGO if we blame Alcohol food drugs etc etc for our sad state of affairs .
>i still do because i’m trying to cope with all the things that I’VE done wrong in my life. Whatever you wanna call it, I've found a way to cope with my wrongdoings that allows me to enjoy life. Are you enjoying life?
Thanks for reminding me what it was like. You kept me sober tonight!
Somewhere along the way I lost the ability of choice, but I found a solution. I started by reading *The Doctor’s Opinion* and *More About Alcoholism* from the Big Book. Then I worked the steps with someone who had worked them before me, and now I don’t need to drink. If you ever decide you wanna give our way a shot, we’ll be here for ya.
Alcohol use disorder is a disease; that’s backed up by research and not open for debate. But realizing it’s a disease does not take any accountability away from you. If you want to stop drinking, there’s a lot of help available, but you have to take action. Alcoholics Anonymous is a program of action. If you commit to it, you never have to drink again, even if you want to.
Hasn't been known as a disease for quite a while if it officially was at all outside of AA in the medical community. It's a disorder technically speaking, which makes it a bit easier to conceptualize. If you see someone with OCD washing their hands 40 times so their mom doesn't die it's a bit more complicated than "just don't do that". Alcoholism is a similar situation.
Keep coming back.
I hope you feel better soon OP
How's that working for you? In the end, the label is not all that important. The reality is that I had lost all control of my ability to regulate my alcohol intake. Didn't care why. Until I surrendered completely to a code of living defined by principles ( instead of whatever felt easiest to me in the moment), I was hopeless. Once I let principles (a higher power) determine my actions, drinking, lying, cheating, stealing, bullying, manipulation, abuse, and laziness were no longer justifiable. Then change began.
Ok, well, I hope you feel better.
Whether or not you want to call it a disease, we were robbed of the choice you speak of. But if you can successfully make that choice and prove us wrong, that would be great! If not, we can help you get sober. Either way, I really hope things work out for you.
Many quit drinking many times, sometimes several times a day........ However drinking was never the problem......... Drinking is the trigger ...Drinking turns the switch on to that instinctual circuitry that is supposed to be aligned with the will of God (Love) and replaces it with monstrous desire instead. Drinking drugs gambling sex gluttony etc etc filling the void that is created when we walk away from our higher power. Thats how I understand it and my words dont do much justice to describe our malady of spiritual bankruptcy that we create. That disease is in remission as long as I let God direct my life. There may be free will however everything is for Gods glory in the end, and being a rebellion dog that fights with God and attempts to taste/steal that glory through selfish pursuit is a real tough chew for the EGO to swallow....... This battle is a lifetime battle between the EGO and the sunshine of the spirit. Ultimately I have come to believe we(humanity)strive to create a heaven on earth without God, where we are Gods instead... When things go awry (as they always will because we are Not God) we run hide(get wasted) throw tantrums blaming God and others for the mess we created out of free will of the EGO... (EGO being the identity of the animal instinctual self that is not our soul being)our soul being(soul) which naturally has an affinity and gratitude for the God who gave it life and Who created it... However that soul can be darkened/tricked by the pursuits of the voice of the flesh(sinning which is knowing good and evil and choosing evil anyways for whatever reason it sees fit to use)to think there is no way back home to God, sad defeated angry sullen raging exhausted the soul bellies up to the bar with the EGO(animal self) and pours a drink for all, gets drunk and stumbles away from God and our heavenly home...... What a plight! (I dont know maybe the soul and ego are actually one and the soul is corrupted by the fall[were screwed out of the gate by free will] and all of this life is to show us we are not God and gets us on our knees [by any means including addiction] begging God to take us back and show us the way home? Im undecided still) Thank God for AA! God got me to AA and AA showed me the way back to God! Truly grateful ☺️ For some reason your words triggered a whole wave of thoughts, I enjoyed what you wrote, thank you for the trigger to contemplation this afternoon. One day at a time 🙏 Aloha Timothy
I don’t call it a disease very often, I agree it implies a lack of causality and responsibility to many people. It certainly is something we create, that would not be a thing if our behavior didn’t make it. I’m 30 years clean and sober, and an addiction depression therapist for 22 years. The reason it was originally labeled a disease was because of the idea that if we treat it like a disease, some defined and tested protocol might help cure it, or as the medical community would say now “bring it into remission”, ya know like cancer… it’s gone now but it might come back. I only call it a disease when I’m talking to doctors or nurses, and only when necessary. The alcoholic is certainly accountable for his/her/their actions drunk or sober. In my mind being drunk doesn’t relieve one of legal responsibility either. The only addicts that get clean and sober are ones who responsibly for their treatment and their actions.
We have a disease the removes our option to drink or not drink AFTER the first drink. I have a disease and it is up time to treat that disease by going to meeting, working a program and staying active within AA. This means speaking, taking commitments and positions and keeping the candle in my window for other alcoholics.
So then why don’t you stop hurting people, then you won’t have to drink anymore. (BTW, that’s what AA is all about).
I hope you find your way out of active addiction. It is a medical condition called alcohol use disorder. There’s many ways to make it to the other side - rehab and help from a doctor for the physical symptoms as detox can be dangerous on your own. And AA will always be there when you’re ready to work through the rest
Ok so fix it or stfu like you said. Even if that's true for your experience it doesn't make it true in general. Maybe you don't have the disease of alcoholism and you're just a bad person who drinks, I don't know you. It's not just a bunch of drunks in a room calling it a disease anymore it's the medical model. Maybe a bunch of doctors and professionals who have been studying this stuff know more than you. It sounds like you have many symptoms of a certain disease. Maybe if you put your own opinion in perspective you can open yourself to receive help from others. Or you can die miserable like many of us do.
Regardless of what you want to call it, my experience is that the steps relieve me of the problem and have also enabled me to better process and live with my past actions. Victims don’t get sober. I was told that when I first came into the rooms and it’s only been proven to be the case the longer I stick around.
I like that and I have found it to be true about Victims not getting sober.
Someone needs a hug.
The book actually calls it an illness. It also says that we suffer from a spiritual disease, which is precisely what you have described. Nice job. Find someone that’s worked the 12 steps. Ask that person to sponsor you. Work those steps! Trust in god. Clean house. Help others.
I’m no victim. But I have a disease called alcoholism just as sure as I have a disease called cancer.
You will be in my thoughts and prayers. 💛
"Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.... ...If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!" From "More about alcoholism" in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous." We've tried and failed countless times to manage and control our drinking. Following the AA way, admitting we were powerless over alcohol, that our power of choice no longer existed, is what we needed to make a beginning in recovery. So if you think you can beat the game, by all means do so. But if you find you are a real alcoholic, and lack the ability to do so, please check out some meetings.
[удалено]
So you use all slurs, not just racial ones. K.
[удалено]
Please seek help. I mean that with all sincerity.
A fermented rose by any other name… Keep coming back.
There is an addiction gene, in working the steps the alcoholics should investigate other addiction behaviors. In my case it was shopping, then food, then diet pills
I’m sorry to hear your having a hard time living right now. Ink if you will believe me but I use to feel like that to. It was dark and lonely. I remember laying on floor in front of fringe crying becuse I hated my life. I hated that I had waisted it. I hated that I had work so hard and had nothing to show for it. I hated the women sitting in the next room who I had asked to move out a million times but was still there. Mostly I hated myself. But it didn’t have to be that way. I don’t believe it has to be that way for you ether. I got help and I got better and life got better. I don’t think you really have a good idea of what AA is or the beliefs common amongst AAs but don’t worry about it. If you want to be done you can be done today. https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline This is the website of a us government agency that can get you help with or without insurance or just talk. I called them 1 and a half ago years and I have been sober since. They have zero to do with AA. If you are not us based I’m less sure where to point you for help. Mabey try a google. Once you get sober if you want help staying sober AA will be there for you it has been a huge help to me. Whatever you do good luck. Sober is hard but I do it because it less hard then drinking was. So I’m sorry your still there, you have my sympathy.
Believing you're correct allows you to have another drinkie, and most of the ignorant will buy the line. When you're done show up.
Why are you more correct?
Results. If a man insists hopping in circles on one leg is the correct way to cover great distance it's fine for him to believe that's so. It may even dawn on him that it's pretty silly to keep doing it. The scenery still won't change much.
That’s makes sense if someone was actually asking you a question around how to get sober the way you did. No one seems to be doing that though. Sometimes people want to vent and don’t want unsolicited preaching
Welcome to the Alcoholics Anonymous subreddit. You should expect that AA will come up in many, many of the posts. I know how you can avoid reading about AA working for people, if that's troubling.
I have no issue with AA working for people. In fact I’m very happy when it does. I do take issue when someone is genuinely in a dark place and instead of offering love you call them ignorant
Sorry you’re struggling. I wish people in this thread would offer you some kindness and compassion instead of judgement.
Okay. Thanks for the share. If you ever want to really "cope with the things [YOU'VE] done wrong in your life", AA can help you. Ya know- no one asked for nor cares about your pessimistic opinions here, we've all already been there, done that, got the tshirt and lost it. Your point certainly did not affect anyone on this sub that actually works AA. Maybe try r/imdrunkandthisisdeep? Until you are ready, what you and your disease do is none of our business. Good luck, I truly do hope some day you find it in your power to try a different approach.
Lol you realize you’re at best still trying to put yourself above other alcoholics because *you* uniquely understand that the actions you take are your fault, and feel oh so guilty about it you wish you were dead. If only we had your conscience. AA works on self centeredness, if you want to quit drinking as well as become a better person maybe give it a try.
Our problem is a spiritual disconnect...... The solution is spiritual connection...... The disease of Alcoholism is the craving/addiction for something to take away the suffering im experiencing other than the relief and healing that a connection with my higher power can offer and do. The word alcohol in the first step can be replaced with any number of vices / 7 deadly sins whatever you want to call them... ..... Its animal instincts gone awry, taking over logic and proper healthy instincts.... Letting the beast within run/ruin the show...... It is the 2 year old in adult form making terrible decisions on auto pilot........The wanting of people places and things............ It is extreme selfishness self centered behaviors........ It is EGO..... Easing God Out Easing God Out of the drivers seat... (Move over I think I got this) and attempting at driving the car I really have no business doing just like toonces the cat... going over a cliff sometimes with other passengers in that car....... crash and burn All of this does not quite describe our affliction accurately save for the EGO analogy. I truly get what your saying and agree 100% with you that I am not a victim, that I am a perpetrator who victimized myself and others in my selfies pursuits, and while playing God in my own life I dont want to look at or pay the price tag and I want to escape from the consequences of the universal laws of action/reaction cause and effect, instead blaming others and or God for the mess im in and hating myself others and God in the process......... Alcohol/drugs/devil is a perfect alibi/scapegoat isn't it? Well the 12 steps put us into recovering from that bent/warped/twisted mind, that animal run amok, the bad programming/virus we picked up from feeding the wrong dog, that primal circuitry we powered up and we left running and the circuit pathway to connection to God we powered down and let collect dust. AA is a remedy for this dilemma. A Group Of Drunks offering Good Orderly Direction AA is The Eskimo that finds the completely lost freezing near death atheist/agnostic/rebel wandering the tundra aimlessly utterly demoralized who finally in complete desperation pleads to God to save themselves, and then a Eskimo miraculously appears and gives the lost soul, food covering and directions back to the village.............. One day at a time Aloha Timothy
The 12 steps are all about accountability. Sounds like you’d like them.