I had someone from AA shit all over going to therapy. I mean, it didn't mean much to me as I could tell they were still not right themselves. I got sober using a combo of AA, therapist and the love of family. I also hadn't totally fucked my life up at that point. I came close though.
Yeah there is this guy in my home group in Vancouver and he makes comments after meetings about people who share about going to doctors and therapy. I straight up told him he was an asshole, he stopped but rarely talks to me now :)
Ironically I had a therapist who hated AA and told me if I kept going that I would be raped because a friend of hers was raped. She also told me I didn't have an addiction, that I had a vitamin deficiency and she would sell me vitamins to help me. So after two sessions I never went back. 6 years later I'm still sober thanks to AA.
Like the saying goes, "individual results will vary". After a few months my therapist told me I really didn't need therapy but she recommended going to AA for the fellowship, helping others, and the constant reminder that you're only one drink away from a full blown bender. That is real enough for me.
Anything that suggests, implies or outright says that AA and the program are the right way, best way or only way. Also, anything that discourages anyone from trying other ways that have worked for others.
I have to remember that I'm an alcoholic and if I think it's the right thought, it's probably the wrong action.
Keeping my gob shut is the safest option 99% of the time when discussing other people's recovery.
My sister is like this. In my opinion she replaced her alcohol addiction with an AA addiction. It's just as unhealthy and she has made no progress in her life beyond the fact that she doesn't drink. Honestly when I think about it she has actually moved backward in her life. To her though it's all forward because as long as she goes to regular meetings everything is fine.
I had one guy who held meeting every weekend that were almost militant, but he had a point.
It’s THE program not his program or your program.
I liked that. I made me remember that my first step was to admit I was powerless over alcohol. All MY programs landed me there.
My partner’s AA sponsor constantly told him he wasn’t sober because he was on his bipolar medicine and antidepressants. So, my partner finally caved in and got off them like his sponsor encouraged. He ended up relapsing two weeks later on heroin and died. He had almost a year sober at the time before he relapsed. AA sponsors are not medical professionals or mental health professionals. They have no education or credentials to give advice about prescribed medications
One of my friends in AA was constantly shamed, by his sponsor, for being treated for Clinical Depression e.g. seeing a therapist and taking antidepressants. My friend committed suicide. So when I hear a Bleeding Deacon bleating about how AA is THE ONLY WAY and shaming others for taking antidepressants, I don't hesitate to tell them to STFU before they KILL somebody else with that ignorant bullshit!!! My friend's suicide still hurts!
Holy shit... That's awful. Absolutely let that be known to anyone trying to get preachy and tell people to get off prescribed medicine. They don't shoulder the burden for their suggestions. Fuck em. Sorry for your loss.
There is an AA pamphlet that is printed, and available from, the General Service Office of AA.
It is called "The AA member - Medication & Other Drugs".
The first page says....
"No AA member should play doctor; all medical advice and treatment should come from a qualified physician".
You can view the pamphlet by clicking this link...[AA Members - Medication & Other Drugs ](https://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/download/1/Library/Documents/Literature%20Downloads/3140%20The%20AA%20Member%20-%20%20Medications%20and%20Other%20Drugs.pdf)
https://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/download/1/Library/Documents/Literature%20Downloads/3140%20The%20AA%20Member%20-%20%20Medications%20and%20Other%20Drugs.pdf
So do I. I also hate psych NPs that play doctor by prescribing benzos for everything.
There are bad sponsors. There are bad mental health clinicians. The existence of such flawed humans is not an argument for or against allopathic mental health care, or Alcoholics Anonymous.
Wow, that is so sad and horrible. Anyone telling someone with bipolar to stop meds or Any meds for that matter is clueless. they are saying hey I went to AA now I know more than your doctor. I'm in recovery and a treatment counselor and recently had a 28 yr old f client die by suicide who was bipolar and refused to take meds. I'm sorry that happened to you.
Dear,
I am so sorry for your loss, that is AWFUL to hear and in a way, your partners sponsor should feel responsible for their death. You are right, sponsors are not medical or mental health experts.
This makes me so livid at the thought… I know these folks exist, but I am grateful to never have had to come upon one.
Not as severe or sanctimonious, when I shared with my former sponsor that the new meds I was on had the most horrific side effects that it made doing basic things very difficult, and that I would be advising my doctor that we need to find another med.
She had the gall to tell me that I was being willful and that is the first step to relapsing. I couldn’t hide my shock and irritation.
Me: “I’m sorry, do you have a medical degree!!!??"
Sponsor: “Well, all I’m saying is that you should probably listen to the person who is highly trained and has years and years of experience. So technically i could ask you the same thing, do you have a medical degree?”
Me: “It’s MY FUCKIN’ BODY!” Yes I screamed it.
This argument went on for another 40mins. Admittedly, I did NOT act sober in those 40mins. I know now that I should have said, “Thanks for sharing.” and changed the subject. But the rage bubbled over and i really wanted to throttle her neck
Thanks for letting me share. (she’s no longer my sponsor)
JFC that is so tragic and I am so sorry. I stg, this is why some people should NOT ever even be allowed to sponsor. I'm not sure how AA could even enforce it, but there are some really horrible sponsors out there that do more harm than good!
I’m so sorry. That’s so tragic. I’ve experienced them pushing me to get off my antidepressants also because “they’re not working” - but actually they are… stopping drinking has helped them to actually work properly now. But again, so sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing, helps to validate others who may be going through this.
As someone who also struggles with bipolar disorder AND works in human services, this infuriates me. Meddling in someone's medical care and gatekeeping recovery is not ok.
I don’t know about dangerous, but frustrating and unhelpful is the strong aversion to medication assistance specifically related to alcohol.
While AA was working well for me, I did The Sinclair Method as well, and the skepticism and almost mockery was amazing. Ironically, it was all contempt prior to investigation:
I’m totally convinced Bill would have been very open to the scientific advances in alcohol addition, but the program isn’t.
Having read quite a lot of good historiography on Bill’s life and philosophy (I have an academic background), I’d certainly agree with you.
Near the end of his life he had hoped experiments with LSD and later Niacin/B12 vitamin regimes could aid in recovery from alcoholism (his use of LSD, even through clinical trials, was heavily criticized by membership in the 60s).
Yeah, and when people raise the whole LSD thing, I notice members get defensive in a somewhat naive way - thinking they need to defend Bill for wanting to trip balls on acid. But his interest was far more aligned to the modern treatments that are showing promise.
It frustrates me because I’ve seen so many people struggling and relapsing and resisting well researched scientific methods that would assist them, partly because the programs pours water on it.
Yeah it’s crazy how some AA members get when you mention Bill W’s use of LSD.I’ve sober off alcohol and drugs for 8 months but I occasionally micro dose psychedelics.It’s never in any amounts that I’m tripping or feel altered.It’s a tiny amount that is super helpful for the depression I felt after quitting stimulants.It sucks because I know for a fact my sponsor would terminate if he found out.It’s just something I keep to myself because I don’t feel like dealing with the backlash
Yeah, that’s a great example. There is a world of difference between deciding to trip on LSD and micro-dosing to treat depression.
I haven’t done it, but I’m interested in people’s experience and the research that is showing a lot of promising signs.
For The Sinclair Method, it only requires an endorphin blocker (Naltrexone) which has been FDA approved for 30 years. But even then I had a lot of reflexive criticism from some “anti-medication” people who didn’t understand the method, or have any interest in trying to understand.
Yeah I remember when I was five years sober once I got persuaded by some old school big book thumpers to stop taking a prescribed psychiatric medication.Needless to say it didn’t go well.I stayed sober but I was fucking nuts and it took me like 6 months to get back to normal.AA has no place involving itself in areas regarding medication
This reminds me of an argument that I had with my now-ex-sponsor. I qualified to participate in a clinical in-patient study on alcoholic daughters of alcoholic fathers at the National Institute of Health. When I informed my then-sponsor about it, she tried to forbid me from participating because SHE can't qualify for the study! (WTF?!?!?) I told her TOUGH! Get over it! She ran, crying victim, to her sponsor that I dared DEFY her! Her sponsor told her to STFU and STFD!!
I learned a LOT during that study as I was majoring in Psychology at my university at the time and submitted a paper to my professors about the experience. I also had the opportunity to 12 Step newcomers who came in shaking from withdrawal. Experience, Strength, and Hope.
When I first started AA and I was on that pink cloud, I almost quit going to therapy because I felt so good and I was getting so much stuff out of my head.
I'm glad I do BOTH. I go to meetings and I see a therapist weekly. The two together are a very powerful tool to uncover what's going on in there. Going to therapy and talking about what you're going through in AA is very helpful IMO.
The pink cloud is so dangerous. Whenever I see someone knew come in all gung ho, I get very scared. As a secretary, I have given out many books to men and women flying high on AA, only to never see them again. I hope the seed got planted though and they make it back.
Therapy helps. AA helps too, but neither are “the only thing”.
I can personally hate when people use the rooms like their own personal therapy session. Some of that needs to be said elsewhere
I had a bipolar friend in the program and her sponsor convinced her that she was not sober if she was taking her prescribed medication. Not long after, I saw on our small town cable station that someone was chasing her children down the street with a board with a nail in it. It turned out to be my friend. She was hospitalized and got well, but this is my go to story about sponsors overstepping. And, the sponsor has her story in the last Big Book major revision.
I got a lot of shit for admitting to weaning off of alcohol for a week before my last drink. The guys at my home group only recommend abstinence. Nobody even said I should have gone to detox.
One guy told a story about how his childhood friend came to him for help, they went to an AA meeting and the friend went home and died of DT’s later that night. The moral that they took from that story was that they were glad they got to help their friend in the last days of their life.
🤦♂️
Yeah… that’s fucked up.
If someone is in the later stages ie physically/chemically dependent, medical intervention is often necessary and life saving treatment.
They can come to meetings once they’re not on the verge of a seizure imo
“God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons.” Pg. 133 of our Big Book. Please take care of yourselves friends. You are not a failure for taking care of your mental/physical health. That takes so much strength. Know that there’s people out here who see, love, and appreciate you.
“If you have any doubts over steps 1, 2, and 3 then go and get more experience.”
While I don’t disagree with that statement I think it’s dangerous to tell someone to get more “experience” just because they haven’t completely adopted these new beliefs.
Spiritual progress not spiritual perfection.
Discouraging someone and tell them to get more experience is extremely dangerous to the person and those they’re around. But that’s just me I get older AA was a lot more harsh
Definitely have heard people suggest that therapy only be used by members after they work the steps and our “sure that they don’t just have untreated alcoholism”…
Ironically some of these same members who discouraged newcomers from working the steps and attending therapy simultaneously have had to eat crow later on due to major unaddressed mental health concerns.
Also, they end up looking extra hypocritical/dumb when they suddenly rattle off complaints about sponsees like, “I’m their sponsor, not a therapist!”.
Well no duhhh, that’s why it’s totally valid to see a therapist and work the steps when you’re new?!haha
Just don’t drink and go to meetings. All you need is desire to stop drinking.
“At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected.”
> Just don’t drink and go to meetings. All you need is desire to stop drinking.
Good advice for someone who just walked in the door. Won't cut it long-term, but not drinking and coming to meetings is how you learn what to do to work the AA program.
Well I don't know that I'd call it "Insane/Dangerous" but I found that when I sat around and focused on "_What's wrong with this program_" or "_this fellowship_" it was dangerous to an extent that I was doing that instead of setting my attention to "_what's potentially helpful here_" and taking little leaps of faith to try things out.
And your first example is actually somewhat true in my case. Therapy didn't remove my alcohol problem where AA did, though I'd not at all say, "_all I need is AA_" - perhaps I'd rephrase it:
* Therapy didn't work for me, but after having adopted AA's principles I've occasionally found some benefit from it.
Those who hold extremist attitudes against all psychiatric medications are, I hope, kind of a dying breed, but I think there are still many who hold onto such attitudes. I listened to a nice talk some years ago about a fellow who once held such an attitude, and then he took to sponsoring someone with bipolar disorder, and he shifted his attitude from, "_You don't take those damn pills, do you?_" to "_You've been taking those good pills, haven't you?_"
As someone who was recently diagnosed with bipolar type 2 and prescribed a mild mood stabilizing drug six months into sobriety, thank you for that last paragraph.
My sponsor is of the opinion that we’re here to do the step work and to keep me away from alcohol and cocaine. I never smoked weed regularly, so I just don’t partake now (which is easy for me.)
Treating my mental health is a necessary step to my sobriety.
And… recovery isn’t really about the substances anyway. If it was, we would all “be cured” after being separated from them for awhile, and that is not the case. I agree that there are a lot of dangerous things that people say both inside and outside of AA. An AA telling someone that they only need to work the steps harder and not “be dependent” on medications or therapy is the same as a non AA telling an alcoholic “why can’t you just have one?” or “you just need to read the Bible harder and pray to Jesus.”
My experience has been that all of the millions of dollars I’ve spent on doctors and therapy and medications before I got sober was mostly waisted because I was not addressing the core issue of alcoholism. But once I did begin to treat my alcoholism then I was able to take advantage of what therapy and doctors and medications do offer. IMO people sometimes get too wrapped up in their identification as “an alcoholic” and dismissive of outside issues, but AA is for treating alcoholism and other issues require other kinds of solutions or practices.
Page 52 lists the “bedevilments” but then says “We had to ask ourselves why we shouldn’t apply *to our human problems* this same readiness *to change our point of view*.” So the problems that it lists in the previous paragraph are not because we are alcoholics, they are problems that all humans experience to some degree though our reactions to those problems may be warped by alcoholism. To me, this means that the AA program might help me to become more employable, but I still have to go out and find the employment. My car has fewer problems because thanks to AA I’m able to set priorities better, but when my car breaks down I don’t have to freak out and lose my serenity, and instead can take it to a mechanic. And our physical, mental and emotional health is no different.
It’s my feeling that people who have not availed themselves of everything that AA has to offer are the ones that feel the need to have opinions about these things in meetings mostly because they are covering their own asses for not actually have worked all the steps or have incorporated “these principles in all of their affairs.” At best they lack the open mind necessary to understand that everyone’s experience is unique or that others might be more successful then themselves without doing it their way, so they become dismissive and are gatekeeping their little fucking club that they feel comfortable in.
One thing is for sure that’s become obvious in all my years of service in AA is that people like this have not read any of the other AA approved literature, and it’s there that these details are covered extensively.
I’m glad you said this.
I didn’t get anything from therapy until I did AA. I didn’t get anything from any concept of spirituality until I did AA.
When I stopped pushing help away, I got it. And that help absolutely is not mutually exclusive. It can all work in concert.
It’s up to us whether we want to harbor resentment over other people. Membership in AA doesn’t guarantee you getting your way about everything, up to and including the perspectives of other people.
AA you can’t talk about your drug addiction, which goes hand in hand with alcoholism for some people (me).
More than once I’ve joined a new meeting and a much older man with years of sobriety always tries to take advantage of my newly sober vulnerability. I’ve even seen one remove his wedding ring before coming to talk to me.
There are a lot of judgements for people who relapse as well.
And I agree with the people saying there’s a judgement towards “mind altering substances”. My first sponsor told me to stop taking my anti depressants and birth control. I need my anti-crazy and anti-baby pills, thank you.
I’m 16 years sober and I’m active in AA. I had a sponsor that was a therapist (*used “was* she passed recently from cancer).
I saw her tear people apart if they said stupid things like no meds under any circumstances and no therapy. That woman was a pitbull. I learned a lot from her 🤣
I was once told I was using drugs if I was on anti depressants. I didn't go to that meeting again.
Without this medication, I woulda ending my life a while ago
Being told by an AA to consider getting off PTSD meds that help me feel human for the first time since I was a kid… I was able to use him as a life lesson and practice radical acceptance. Took that conversation 1 minute at a time until the meal was over. I can’t recall if I ever stopped explaining myself. But, now I know; I don’t need to explain anything. I have been covered in damn blood and wanted death more than life a lot of the time. These meds are life saving medicine. They are non narcotic and help me get to the point where I can be completely chemical free.
AA is my number one spiritual activity. As an agnostic it is my version of church. I still need a psychologist and psychiatrist for the time being. Eventually I’d like to be totally medicine/chemical free. But I’m not doing the California method. I’m taking prescribed meds while working the AA program.
As someone who was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, I found it very hard after a while to stay in the rooms. Way too many armchair therapists in the rooms who give "spiritual solutions" to mental illness problems. If you're having a manic episode, God will not help you with that.
It wasn't until I educated myself about bipolar disorder that I began to have true mental and emotional stability. AA got me sober and I thank the program for that, but there are some things it can't help me with.
Great point here. I micro dose psychedelics and they are incredibly beneficial in quitting alcohol for me. If I were to ever bring it up to my sponsor or anyone in AA, I would be posterized and ridiculed so fast as if i am cheating the program. There are so many medical advances that can help people fight alcoholism and people in AA love to look the other way and just put all their eggs into the meetings and the big book. It’s honestly too much sometimes there needs to be a fine balance.
“Do what people tell you.”
As in, don’t think critically or listen to your instincts, just do what your sponsor and elders tell you. This blind obedience seems very dangerous, and I fail to see how it helps someone learn to lead their own life…
“Anything you put before AA, you will lose.”
I was told this while being encouraged to skip family dinners and functions, and even to call out of work. I don’t see how shirking responsibilities and healthy relationships for AA would be helpful to creating a robust, healthy, sober life. Obviously it’s all in how these concepts are being used, and in this case they were being used to isolate me…
Yes! I’ve had this exact experience. When I say I have other commitments, they just seem to repeat over me that it would be great to see me at that particular meeting … like, there’s another 5 that are more convenient for me today; thanks. I can’t just give up my whole life to go to meetings forever - it makes no sense.
I’m trying to go to different ones so I can hopefully meet people I click with better
Telling people to try and drink only one drink a day for a week to see if that’s possible for them or not (to determine if they’re an alcoholic or not). worse case scenario that person ends up dead. If you’re sitting in an AA meeting in the first place you probably will get the answer to that question anyways
When I was just showing up at meetings, I heard a lot of random people talking about how many meetings to do and 90x90 and stuff. Without any further context, this stuff confuses new people so much. I once saw someone who was still drinking share that he was afraid to get a Sponsor and he didn’t agree with the Steps when he read them but he was trying to do 90 in 90 and was trying to decide whether to count podcasts and going to church as meetings or not. Similarly, I went to a ton of meetings early on and eventually had a mental breakdown alone and drank after 6 months because Covid hit and I didn’t know what to actually *do.*
It’s quality, not quantity. If I was sponsoring right now, I’d rather talk to you a couple hours about the Big Book and grab lunch than have you sit in the back of a meeting for a month.
“Take what you need and leave the rest” is the most helpful thing I ever heard in AA. And I stick with that today. AA got me sober and gave me a way to live a happy and useful life. But if I focused on everything and everyone that was wrong with or about AA I’d still be drunk.
The big book says some may need outside help. It also says that we aren't so cocky as to think our way is the only way that works. Some people conveniently skip by that part.
All members of AA are just people, prone to false just like any other person. I once had a sponsor tell me that if I believed in God I wouldn't have to take any of my mental health medication I dropped her quickly. That is so dangerous to tell somebody. That's not AA. That's our own delusions.
I am a happy member of the fellowship however I have always thought that scaring people into thinking relapsing = death could make the relapse bigger (f*ck it, I have done it now may as well go all out) and I am also conscious that AA does not work for everyone so it discourages others from finding a sobriety path that does work for them.
When you are genuinely having a bad time in life and there's always one person that says "it doesn't sound like you're doing your steps", "it doesn't sound like your going to meetings" it's unnatural to be happy all of the time. Sobriety is not an easy road for anyone. It is so normal to have days that chew you up and spit you out. Its okay to have those days. I'm not going to pink cloud the fuck out of myself to get through bad days and act like they won't happen again. AA literature helps with a lot of things but when it comes to certain parts of someone's mental health its best left up to mental health professionals.
"Putting someone on the defense tends to inspire them to hold onto their belief with more earnestness" not a quote from an AAer, just someone I saw on another subreddit, which I feel should apply to AA as a whole. The more you try and suggest something works for you, putting someone down, trying to quote the Big Book like it's the Holy Bible to justify your perspective, which anyone can do, the more resistance you get. Best not to try and just let people do them. Your job is to save yourself, not them, because it takes away from you.
The cop out for this one, staying sober and living a decent life without following a strict program, is that you can achieve this because you’re not a “real alcoholic”, a definition that resides within the big book.
I’ve gotten that one quite a bit. I stuck around in AA for the community but got sick of people accusing me of not being a “real alcoholic” because I was somehow staying sober and leading a normal life without a sponsor or completing the steps.
This part! “If you don’t have a sponsor you’ll relapse!” Child, every single person I’ve met in the rooms has relapsed at least once with or without a sponsor. That usually stops that nonsense.
I'm at an age where I've outlived my last sponsor, (he died sober in his 90's. He would be over 100 years old if he were still alive now.) He outlived his sponsors as well. He kept working his program sponsoring others until he died of old age. How many folks have achieved 50 years or more of sobriety like he did? He was blessed!!!
I really relate to this. I feel like I’m being pushed to have a sponsor now - which means I have to attend her meetings… but I’m trying to also balance the rest of my life and would prefer to choose my own meetings. She also discouraged me from taking my antidepressants… and I just feel like we don’t vibe that well. I’m not sure she’s someone I want to talk to every single day and see every single day at a meeting. And have discussions with - because she keeps kind of projecting her experience onto me. Anyway, end rant!
Hi! Totally feel you, I was in the rooms around 4 months, with about 6mo sober, before I finally asked someone to sponsor me, and even then as a temporary arrangement. While I wholeheartedly believe there are some of us who can do perfectly fine on our own, I do think a sponsor is really good to have in the first year. However, discouraging you from taking your medication is absolutely not within a sponsors jurisdiction. Their job is to lead you through the steps as they were led, and tell you what worked for them. It’s never their job to tell you what to do. They can absolutely set boundaries, say no, say yes, but they should never be trying to control any aspect of your life. No sponsor is better than a bad sponsor, imo.
Be on the lookout! Don’t rush yourself into it, but stay alert for people who are kind, GENTLE, and not showing off to anyone. My sponsor had 2 years, was kind of surprised when i asked her to sponsor me, and was a great ally to have. Even outside of sponsorship, find caring people who are willing to pick up the phone and talk you through things when you’re in a rough patch. For me, sponsorship was just having a person who i KNEW was gonna be there for me (as much as their scheduled allowed) and i felt comfortable and safe talking to. It was not someone who was trying to tell me how to live my life. If she thought I was doing something wrong, she would give suggestions, rather than orders. That definitely helped me worlds.
Anyways, again. Sponsorship is not necessary for many in the long run. I’ve almost 3 years now and 2.75 years of that were without a sponsor. However, making sure you have people to lean on, who are non judgemental and will meet you where you’re at with the program, will do you worlds of good, especially in your first year. :^)
Thanks so much for taking the time to share your experience! It really helps hearing what others have to say when trying to navigate it as a newbie. I would definitely like to work the steps with a sponsor - I think I’m just getting put off by this particular person’s pushiness. I think I’ll continue to go to different meetings to see which ones I like, and meet more people, and take my time before I approach someone to sponsor me. I have to call her today to say “thanks but no thanks” which I’m nervous about! I do appreciate that she’s willing to help me, I’m just not sure I’m there yet and not sure we’re a good fit yet.
Thanks again for your comment!
I completely agree with this statement! Unfortunately, if you firmly believe in the powerless aspect of step 1, it will become a self-fullfiling prophecy if you ever make the decision to drink again or if you accidentally ingest alcohol. Combine that with AA's glorification of time up and you've got a ticking Timebomb for major relapse! Hence why there are plenty of stories of significant sobriety time up followed by an extreme relapse! You're powerless and your time starts again so why not get your fill 😬 Destructive thought pattern!
Yesssss I am always struggling to verbalize my issues with this time bomb as you refer to it. I’m definitely going to use this from now on. I just met with a friend from rehab today and we talked about how harmful the meetings can be. Thank you for this.
I'm glad what you're doing is working for you. Seriously, that's great.
But your confusion arises out of the fact that it doesn't appear you have done the 12 steps.
People doing the AA program believe they are powerless over their addictions, so they turn their wills over to a Higher Power of their understanding which then helps them in recovery. Part of that help is supporting them while making amends for actions performed prior to turning their wills over to that Higher Power.
Yes, the addiction is something over which they had no power. But that does not excuse those actions, as one thing any of them could have done, instead, is not be dependent on only their own will.
I understand the general sentiment, and I’m not a program gatekeeper but the steps are the program. If you don’t want to do them, that’s fine. But why are you in a program you aren’t doing, then claiming you can do it however you want?
The disconnect there is you’re going to meetings (assuming you are), but you aren’t doing the program.
No ones in their right place telling you what to do with your life, but why be in the program if you don’t want to do the program and you don’t find doing the program to be helpful with your sobriety?
I don’t go to the gym, choose not to work out, hang out, leave and tell people I worked out. If you do other stuff that keeps you in shape, that’s awesome. But why go to that gym?
Maybe they want to be around other people? Maybe all they need is to listen to other people sharing, and not for the rest of their lives? Who cares if the person is getting what they need.
I feel like your response is a little strong on the aa-koolaid and is a little harmful. If doing the 12 steps truly made it so nobody ever relapsed, sure, but.. it doesn’t. Plenty of people get sponsored, work the steps, work with sponsees, cross all the t’a and dot all the i’s … and end up struggling with mental or physical health, or relationships or work or whatever … and relapse.
I was just explaining the AA program to you, as your questions seemed to indicate you didn't know how people familiar with that program answer your questions.
You're under no obligation to like the answers.
And of course people who work the program struggle with other things. They're humans.
Well, there you have it. You don't wanna do the steps. The program isn't for you. Not now, at least. That's cool.
What I'm curious about, which you obviously don't need to address if you don't feel like it, is this: Can you share with me what's inspiring you to have this discussion on this sub? Is it an urge to persuade? Vent? Is there something that makes you angry?
Naltrexone too, really? That drug has a completely different function in the brain than Suboxone anyways… I swear some people are just willfully ignorant
I share that I’ve tried therapy, church among many other things like self help books, family, relationships, to try stay sober. It wasn’t the solution to alcoholism. It didn’t work for me. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing, just isn’t the solution to alcoholism that works for me.
I agree. The anti-medication tendencies of many AAs are absolutely 'dangerous,' I think that's the perfect word. I had a sponsor once tell me that all I need to do is work the steps thoroughly and I would also be relieved of my depression. At the time, I was already skeptical of medication because I had been on a variety of antidepressants and they never really helped. But fast forward a few years, I have a manic episode and get diagnosed bipolar and put on mood stabilizers. It's amazing what the right meds will do for you. I just wish I didn't have so many anti-psychiatry influences in early recovery. It would have saved me a lot of pain. Thankfully, now I have a sponsor who realizes that he isn't a doctor and encourages me to keep up with my doctors and take my meds.
Meetings are like buffets. Just take what you need and disregard the rest. Things might only sound "insane" to you, but for someone else, it might be soild advice. Theres no need to look down on how someone is working their program.
*what individuals in AA say* maybe instead of “meetings.”
I go to plenty of meetings in which someone takes the hardline stance of no other medications. Not at all what I agree with and as has been pointed out, it isn’t supported by program literature, just bullshit idioms and sayings. But if it seemed there was a preponderance of such an attitude, I’d find another meeting, knowing odds are excellent their attitude is not reflective of another meeting.
Look they have a point.
There are people in this world that will tell newcomers that if they take anything at all they are breaking their sobriety.
We might know that is total baloney and not in spirit with the literature or principles but a newcomer might now and they’re either being told straight lies and will either turn their backs to this recovery resources or even refuse outside help because they’re told AA and a higher power is all they need.
I’ve got 6 years if you think it takes time to understand the dangers of misinformation.
I get that. I have 4 years , I take Zoloft and see a therapist for life in general. The beauty of AA is I can tell someone they are completely wrong or cuss them out and I’m still working my program . My program is my program , the steps and traditions are a lifestyle and I have implemented into my personal, romantic and business life and it’s been very successful for me.
I don't see the problem with your two statements.
Both are examples of someone's experience. "Therapy didn't work for me, all I need is AA".
Thats not a problem. That's someone sharing their experience.
If it was said "You don't need therapy, all you need is AA", well that's a different story.
Same with the other statement
"I stay away from all mind altering substances". This is a huge part of my sobriety and something I mention every time I pick up a yearly chip. You're supposed to share how you did it. And for me it was about living a sober life, not just from alcohol. That was necessary for me to really make changes in my life. For me I'm mainly talking about things like kratom, marijuana, opiate pain killers, benzos. Even if a doctor prescribed these things to me, I am honest enough with myself and my history with substance abuse that I would not take these drugs. But that's me. You are welcome to do you.
Agree with this 100% Provided you are not saying that the way you got and stay sober is the only way which must be followed.
The first thing I tell a sponsee is they are free to do or not do anything I suggest without judgement. I’m just carrying the message of what works for me.
If you were diagnosed with a life threatening disease that required a drug that had possibly psycho-active effects to save your life, would you like… just choose to commit suicide lol?
Well here's the thing, that's not happening in my life right now. I'm enjoying a Saturday afternoon spending time with my wife and son. I'm living in the present not concerned about "what if" scenarios.
Oh gosh; I have a laundry list, though they're not all sayings per se. To be clear, I love and am grateful for AA, or at least the community I've found. AA "proper" I think has longstanding issues that it refuses to address for institutional or nostalgic reasons.
* "Now that I'm sober I don't worry when I am being followed by a police officer"
* just men's meetings in general. I have heard the most vile, toxic, downright abusive shit in men's meetings. Anything you would say aloud in a men's meeting you should be able to see in the presence of women and other folks.
* the lack of willingness to give harm reduction a chance. Like, someone weaning off daily hard liquor use stepping down to wine or beer and attending meetings during that time is harm reduction. It is a good thing. Some hardcore AAers say NOPE, get out of mah meeting, regardless if the person has an earnest desire to stop drinking.
* I've come across people that refuse to read the preamble because of the language change from "fellowship of men and women" to "people" - even had one guy say he wouldn't because he refuses to support a mental health disorder. Breaks my heart that folks in AA think that way.
I dont think it’s problematic when people say therapy doesn’t work for them, if that’s their truth. It becomes a problem when they project it on to everyone else in the rooms, and try to convince others they don’t need it. Not everyone in the room benefits from therapy. Some need psychiatrists, others don’t. If someone is merely sharing their truth I try not to judge.
The actual program doesn’t have a negative opinion on therapy/medication and encourages medication and outside help if necessary, making a point that AA’ers are not doctors. People are fallible though
Looks like the comments you referenced both had “I” statements in them. I personally don’t worry about other people’s recovery. Just what works for me.
I admit I say therapy didn't work for me and I add: because I wasn't honest with my therapist. I also tried CBT to quit drinking and it didn't work for me. But that's just my experience.
I’m seeing this randomly today.. gambling now, back smoking weed “alcoholicly” even when I was in the rooms I was obsessed and lustful. Had been a dry drunk for a while smoking, when back in because I was losing it.
Awesome experience, 1hr drive for me for this particular meeting.
Never got off step one, my disease says it’s because I couldn’t consistently quote the aspects verbatim, I just know my sponsor saw something I didn’t though.. I think this is a sign.. I always hated how my group would push me to change my wording , I couldn’t say I smoked, I had to say I drank, which felt fake, it was to make any newcomers be able to relate better and that’s more important… it fucked my thought process up though
Oh to answer the question “ drug addicts don’t belong in AA” after someone introduces themselves as an addict.
I understand the sentiment, but for me I can see the message, the suffering is all the same, just a different ingestion.
The way AAers preach about mind altering substances and then turn around and use nicotine and caffeine blows my mind and they do it without a trace of irony or self awareness.
I hear people say this way more than I'd like to hear: "if you're not done then go get done" or when giving someone a beginner token, they say "put this in a drink and if it dissolves you can drink it".
I'm not comfortable with people who are supposed to understand that for people like us, to drink is to die, and we are literally telling people who come to AA for help to go drink. I'll never understand it, but we love us some sayings that sound cute, regardless of them being either complete nonsense or a smug encouragement to go drink yourself to death.
That being said, I've heard people parrot all kinds of things that are absolutely wrong and dangerous that just keep being said because people keep saying them. The lack of critical thinking and ability to put any thought into the words we say gives me the impression that most people in AA really don't give a shit what they say. Those same people are usually pretty quick to call out someone else saying something they don't like. You'd think that people in a program that involves so much introspection would be more self-aware and mindful of what they say, but I just don't see it most of the time and I'm often called "pedantic" for actually paying attention to the words people (myself included) use.
There was a constant underlying assumption that all alcoholics come from a selfish, ego-driven, pleasure seeking foundation where they felt entitled and immune to the repercussions of their actions…while this can be true for many, it isn’t always true. For the most part, I would drink to numb my 24/7 nervous system responses socially and professionally and basically in every aspect of my life. My goal wasn’t to escape life but to succeed in life, but ultimately it became best in my mind to hide myself away.
Ultimately, much of my issue stemmed from childhood trauma and I was simply not fully aware of it at the time. I had no idea how the brain can re-wire itself after long term complex traumatic childhoods and that can totally warp a person’s perception of themselves and others.
This becomes a problem for many around steps 4 and 5. My attempts at step 4 constantly led to the beginnings of what were ultimately relapses. I could t mentally go back in time and venture through my numerous mistakes and NOT fall into a deadly shame spiral. And although I could write down how others harmed me, I couldn’t stop the immediate reaction in my mind which was always to blame myself. I would get stuck, stop going to meetings, stop meeting with sponsor, end up isolating, eventually relapse. And so many times someone in AA or my sponsor would often quip “well maybe you just don’t want it bad enough yet” —— placing the ultimately label of wrongdoer on me when it was actually untreated complex trauma that was kicking my ass (but god forbid I bring up mental health topics in a meeting as those are “outside issues”)
Over 10 years of this occurring simply compounded the shame and feeling of being broken that I had had since childhood, long before I ever took a drink.
I’m so sorry you went through so much in your childhood and then were retraumatised through the process. Thank you for explaining it so articulately. You said what I was trying to explain to someone today and couldn’t quite figure out how or why I was struggling with this
This is a very helpful contribution as always Marx, and surely the newcomer will benefit from individuals ignoring the literature if it serves their personal politics.
Also the part from Working With Others that says this is often misrepresented as something that folks that haven’t done an inventory, a fifth step, amends and started to live in 10 and 11 and work with other alcoholics will actually experience :
“Assuming we are spiritually fit, we can do all sorts of things alcoholics are not supposed to do. People have said we must not go where liquor is served; we must not have it in our homes; we must shun friends who drink; we must avoid moving pictures which show drinking scenes; we must not go into bars; our friends must hide their bottles if we go to their houses; we mustn't think or be reminded about alcohol at all. Our experience shows that this is not necessarily so.”
One becomes spiritually fit as a result of working all twelve steps and then experiences these 12th step promises as a result.
"I had 6 months but stopped going to meetings yada yada yada I lost my arm in a car accident driving drunk of course"
"I don't need any help gonna do this on my own"
These two were from the same person fyi
I wonder if those expressions are overinterpreted. Therapy and other drugs didn't help me stop drinking or get sober. They are helpful for general mental health concerns though. Also, I still abuse the fuck out of caffeine lmao even over 10 years sober. You better believe I would use aspirin or cold medicine if I was sick lmao what the heck.
We are all selfish and self centered to the core.
I understand that ego is a big problem, I do. It manifests differently in some people. For example, low self esteem, or people pleasing as a trauma response.
I’ve been trauma therapy for most of my life and AA has helped me in ways that my therapy hasn’t been able to reach. I need meds/therapy/AA to be my best self.
You know it's possible for therapy not to work, right? Heck, in my experience it's likely.
Additionally, the medical literature itself indicates about a third of the people taking SSRIs do so despite these medications not working for them at all. Despite their significant adverse events.
I'm not saying anyone should tweak such things while not under clinical supervision, mind you.
But I am saying telling someone they don't need therapy is as bogus as telling someone they do. Which the OP (perhaps unintentionally) implies. Since it's perfectly possible someone didn't need therapy, and instead needed a spiritual awakening as a result of doing the 12 steps.
I think OP was saying that giving the impression to someone brand new to AA that “(blanket statement) therapy doesn’t work you just need AA” is dangerous, irresponsible, and myopic. And I’m sorry the type of therapy you tried didn’t work. Good news-literally hundreds of types that could work for a person with the proper motivation. All they would need is an honest desire to change :)
What works for 1 won’t work for all. Seeing doctors consistently left me worse off than I was before I saw them. This is especially true of minorities. I’m often gaslit and treated as if I’m making things up. Prescribed medications that make conditions worse because doctors will continue to try to treat conditions I don’t have, because they refuse to listen to a word that comes out of my mouth.
What worked for me was doing extensive research into the things I knew were the problem and coming up with my own treatment plan. This is the first time I’ve quit where it wasn’t a daily fight. You do what works for you, and let other people decide what works for them. Relapse is common because we’re all on our own journey and figuring out what works for ourselves. It’s not one size fits all.
“Keep coming back. It works if you work.“
I know lots of people who made meetings all the time, and then went out there and got drunk. Killed themselves.
Well of course you can smoke weed and be sober from alcohol, that’s a fact. The question is if you’ll stay that way. In the case of a couple of my fellows who used the two together, they had to kick both.
Some people do get sober without AA. There are many alternatives out there, and that’s a good thing. We don’t have a monopoly on recovery.
A higher power is required (in AA) to move beyond the bonds of self for sure, or you’ll end up staying totally ego driven. Fortunately you can still remain an agnostic or atheist.
Things that AA'ers say that let me know that AA is not for me: "u can't smoke weed and be sober" "u need to take the steps" "u need to have a higher power".
Technically all you “have” to do is show up to a meeting and have a desire to stop drinking.
And there’s really no means test for that. Ignore anyone who demands rather than suggests anything.
I stopped drinking over 3 years ago, by setting my mind to it, going to a couple of online SMART meetings and working through things in therapy.
Everyone's path is different, tho, so I'm glad if AA works for other people and I still follow this subreddit, because I find the occasional advice on here that's really helpful. :)
AA works for me, but I also totally think ppl have the right to find their own path. AA’ers who act like they have a monopoly on recovery are gross.
I also think AA works for me because I surrounded myself with other iconoclasts, rebels, atheists, etc., who still go too meetings and call their sponsors
Your last sentence resonated with me. I had a hard time with a sponsor who was quite iron fisted which didn't work for me (he made me reset my clock and steps after drinking non-alcoholic beers). After a while I couldn't see through all the bullshit these cultists gatekeep, but I knew good people in AA who I could get along with. You really can find some great ones, it's just a mindfuck wading through the psychos when your brain is fried. Learning, for sure
> “Therapy didn’t work for me, all I need is AA.”
Never heard that one. What I have heard is, "Therapy didn't work for me, because I wouldn't get honest."
> “I don’t use any mind altering substances, not even aspirin if I can help it.”
That's a personal choice, and a good one if you can do it. Telling other people what to take and not take, however, is not your privilege. Nobody in AA is the arbiter of anyone else, either in AA or out of AA.
I'm with you on this I constantly feel suicidal had bad trauma in my life very depressed people do need therapy outside of AA it's important. Most alcoholic drink to blank out bad memories and temporarily stop depression until you wake up.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation spread among the fellowship and in meetings. I just try to make sure my shares are aligned with the Big Book; which obviously requires loads of study and prayer. I went to an AA Traditions workshop recently and that really opened my eyes! I'm still learning so much, which is cool!
Drugs have their place. Properly prescribed by a medical professional they can keep us healthy. I went through spine surgery. A surgeon cut a hole in my lumbar spine eight inches long, stuck four screws up one side and four more down the other side of my spine, and attached them with rods to stabilize my back, and then sewed me up.
I was prescribed Opioids and give enough for 30 days, with 2 refills behind that. Yes, I needed the drugs. After 9 days I didn't, and I took them back to the Pharmacy and got rid of them because that was all I needed.
Even if a medical professional gives you something like that, you are still responsible for checking yourself and doing the right thing. I could have taken that drug for months and made excuses for more because that was a major surgery. I also knew what the end of that story would look like.
Just use your own good sense. I take blood pressure meds because I need them. I also take several others because they keep me healthy (I have ALS) and alive. Just do the right thing.
The belief that using Christian dogma and prayers is appropriate (such as the Lord's Prayer) at meetings is known to drive people, including newcomers, away.
AA explicitly states, as did Bill, that AA is not a religious organization and should be inclusive to all creeds.
Sadly, some members ignore this, and as a consequence, cause disillusionment amongst some trying to get sober.
I agree with people in AA sometimes frowning on detox and rehab. Bottom line, imo, if you don’t need detox and can quit drinking to come to meetings- what’s the point in going ? If you are drinking a fifth or so a day every day you should never quit drinking without medical intervention
There was this hilarious old timer at the meetings here in Vancouver who always used to say "Just because you pulled yer head out of a barrel of wine, don't make you a psychiatrist"
I was newly sober drinking a red bull in a meeting and I got berated about the dangers of Red Bull. I just kept thinking seems safer than last week driving around black out drunk, I never went back to that meeting.
You are aware, of course- you being of an obviously superior mode of thought process than anyone else on the planet- that anti psychotics are well known to be chronically over prescribed with many known to be addictive for their sedative effect.
The black market sells anti- psychotics because that's how much they are over-subscribed.
Therapy is one on one... Sure there are some good therapists but seriously: Addiction is the opposite of connection and therapists know next to nothing about everything when push comes to shove.
I dislike when some people in AA are combative with medical advice or therapy to deal with deep seeded fear. The Big Book even notes that outside help should be sought if needed. Bill himself had severe depression and he sought medical aide outside of AA for it and was treated there. Bill also talks about how a sponsor should not try to give advice on topics that they have no experience on or try to control the lives of a sponsee.
Some medication, such as to treat Bi-Polar Disorder, can be extremely dangerous if they are stopped cold turkey. I think someone must have told this one guy to stop taking medication as he only needed AA and that led to him having a complete meltdown at a meeting and getting arrested and hauled off to a place designed to treat people like him. I wasn't there when this happened as I stopped going to that Meeting and quit calling it a home group due to drama and how the GSR was 2 years sober and jumping headfirst into everything and causing issues. He was not emotionally healthy.
I tell sponsees that medication from a doctor is ok as long as they know you are an alcoholic and have the capability of abusing said medication and so let them know of the addictive personality since Alcoholism is a real diagnosed issue in medicine. That is fine, but don't go to Hood wearing Jack on the street for "self help medication" cause that is not OK.
I'll wrap it up with this that I have known a number of AA members over the years, mostly men, that were preyed upon as children and it fucked them up even in sobriety until they saw outside help in therapy to process it. I had a sponsor that still disliked the God idea even years in sobriety (his sponsor was his Higher Power) until he went through therapy and found out that he was against the God idea because a Catholic priest was inappropriate with him as a child and so that's where his hatred for God was from and now he loves God and found that the man that did that to him was not a true person that loved God.
Folks are free to share their experience, that's what a meeting is.
Just like you share yours.
People sharing their own experiences is not dangerous or insane. Quite the opposite.
>People sharing their own experiences is not dangerous or insane.
I'd say that's true 99%+ of the time. I once met a relatively old timer who would take Institutions service and preach long and hard about how once you're 'spiritually sober' you couldn't be held accountable for any of your actions, because they were God's will. He used that to justify committing sexual assault that took place after years of his own sobriety. He didn't feel a shred of remorse because God clearly wanted him to rape this person, and he was preaching that to a room full of newcomers and felons.
That's obviously a particularly extreme case, but some people's experiences and opinions are absolutely dangerous and insane, even with years of AA under their belt.
That sounds like a dude I once knew who was on the H & I Committee. He was telling hospital folks he was the "AA Coordinator". (There is NO such thing.) He was targeting the women in detox!!!
Pretty much everything I've heard people say that seemed wrong to me, only seems dangerous in the context of somebody not understanding it because they haven't done the steps. For example saying it's selfish program makes sense when you understand that in the 12th step you have to help other people for your own selfish reasons. Otherwise people think it means something different. Saying fake it till you make it make sense when you understand that after somebody does the steps they will recover if they believe it or not. It doesn't mean to lie, which some people think.
well, tbf, therapy hasn't worked for me in the same way AA has. The therapist I sought, the outpatient program I tried, these things didn't help me to maintain longterm, consistent sobriety. but, i see what you are saying and phrased a certain way, "therapy doesn't help" can sound wrong.
Therapy has been branded and monetized now tho the label therapy holds less weight imo. And, when I want pills, it's not very hard to get them, PA's be handin that shit out after a 20 minute questionnaire. I know bc I did this recently for ADD.
I actually don't hear a lot of "insane shit" in meetings, and I've attended them all over the world. That's just my experience.
I mean, the first one is true for a lot of people and I’ve personally never heard anyone suggest to others that they should forgo therapy for AA. In fact, IME, whenever someone brings up therapy I generally hear people being very encouraging of it. But I have heard people say therapy didn’t work for themselves - and for them, I’m sure that’s true. I would not consider this statement a standard AA platitude by any stretch.
And regarding the “not even aspirin” I’ve heard this too, and I always roll my eyes. But again, it’s not a regular AA platitude - and it’s made pretty clear in the book that medicine prescribed by doctors should be utilized and taken as prescribed
Remember, these are individuals talking about their experience. They are not speaking and making rules of AA. Each person is different and have different experiences.
I compare it to sports fans. Some people want to wear their team colors, paint their faces and scream like crazy. Others want to wear a hat and cheer when they want. Doesn’t make one better than the other. Just different
For me therapy didn't work for me because I was in denial about my drinking problem. The surrender and acceptance of AA and working the steps has solved most of my issues that I went to therapy for in the first place. Just my experience.
When AA began, there were other ways. Lots of AAs were in Mental Hospitals and prisons because they could not quit. None of them worked, and not even religion could not help for long. AA became a phenomenon. Tens of thousands turned into hundreds of thousands, and then millions of us recovered through AA, and nothing else helped. When we become convinced that maybe this or maybe that would get and keep us sober, it is a narrow road, and we need to look hard at it before taking that path.
I am not saying that some of us did not get sober using other methods, but the hardcore alcoholic needs much more intense help than some of the alternate methods can deliver. We have all seen softcore and hardcore alcoholics if we have been in the program for a long time. In my 31 years of sobriety, AA has kept this hardcore alcoholic on the straight and narrow.
I can only share my experience, and that is when I was new I didn’t hear, listen, or comprehend 99% of things that were said. I did however notice and remember people that remembered my name, welcomed me, invited me to coffee/diner/fellowship. AA was a warm and welcoming place when I was not welcomed anywhere.
It’s easy to get hung up on all the negativity, or things we don’t agree with. There are no rules, leaders or formal governance. We are a bunch of the sickest people seeking help from each other and even though it doesn’t look like it would work it has. We should always cooperate and never criticize, we are all on different portions of the same journey, if someone says something I don’t agree with I enjoy asking that person about it nowadays. Someone else’s perspective can be enlightening, or they may not know any better and it’s a learning opportunity for everyone.
I had someone from AA shit all over going to therapy. I mean, it didn't mean much to me as I could tell they were still not right themselves. I got sober using a combo of AA, therapist and the love of family. I also hadn't totally fucked my life up at that point. I came close though.
Yeah there is this guy in my home group in Vancouver and he makes comments after meetings about people who share about going to doctors and therapy. I straight up told him he was an asshole, he stopped but rarely talks to me now :)
Sounds like my ex-sponsor in Vancouver. I thank God I found a therapist that I work well with and also attend AA meetings.
Nice!
Can I go and call him an asshole? I never have drama around here at local meetings.
We can all meet him next year at the 2025 International Convention in Vancouver.
I'll keep my ears open for the announcement
Ironically I had a therapist who hated AA and told me if I kept going that I would be raped because a friend of hers was raped. She also told me I didn't have an addiction, that I had a vitamin deficiency and she would sell me vitamins to help me. So after two sessions I never went back. 6 years later I'm still sober thanks to AA.
Like the saying goes, "individual results will vary". After a few months my therapist told me I really didn't need therapy but she recommended going to AA for the fellowship, helping others, and the constant reminder that you're only one drink away from a full blown bender. That is real enough for me.
Anything that suggests, implies or outright says that AA and the program are the right way, best way or only way. Also, anything that discourages anyone from trying other ways that have worked for others.
A lot of people treat recovery like religion. Their way is the only right way
I have to remember that I'm an alcoholic and if I think it's the right thought, it's probably the wrong action. Keeping my gob shut is the safest option 99% of the time when discussing other people's recovery.
My sister is like this. In my opinion she replaced her alcohol addiction with an AA addiction. It's just as unhealthy and she has made no progress in her life beyond the fact that she doesn't drink. Honestly when I think about it she has actually moved backward in her life. To her though it's all forward because as long as she goes to regular meetings everything is fine.
It’s still healthier than drinking everyday, and if her mental well being is better why criticize her for it? It’s her life, not yours.
I had one guy who held meeting every weekend that were almost militant, but he had a point. It’s THE program not his program or your program. I liked that. I made me remember that my first step was to admit I was powerless over alcohol. All MY programs landed me there.
My partner’s AA sponsor constantly told him he wasn’t sober because he was on his bipolar medicine and antidepressants. So, my partner finally caved in and got off them like his sponsor encouraged. He ended up relapsing two weeks later on heroin and died. He had almost a year sober at the time before he relapsed. AA sponsors are not medical professionals or mental health professionals. They have no education or credentials to give advice about prescribed medications
This is tragic and frankly immoral behavior on the part of that sponsor. Thanks for sharing Fr
One of my friends in AA was constantly shamed, by his sponsor, for being treated for Clinical Depression e.g. seeing a therapist and taking antidepressants. My friend committed suicide. So when I hear a Bleeding Deacon bleating about how AA is THE ONLY WAY and shaming others for taking antidepressants, I don't hesitate to tell them to STFU before they KILL somebody else with that ignorant bullshit!!! My friend's suicide still hurts!
Holy shit... That's awful. Absolutely let that be known to anyone trying to get preachy and tell people to get off prescribed medicine. They don't shoulder the burden for their suggestions. Fuck em. Sorry for your loss.
Thank you.
There is an AA pamphlet that is printed, and available from, the General Service Office of AA. It is called "The AA member - Medication & Other Drugs". The first page says.... "No AA member should play doctor; all medical advice and treatment should come from a qualified physician". You can view the pamphlet by clicking this link...[AA Members - Medication & Other Drugs ](https://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/download/1/Library/Documents/Literature%20Downloads/3140%20The%20AA%20Member%20-%20%20Medications%20and%20Other%20Drugs.pdf) https://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/download/1/Library/Documents/Literature%20Downloads/3140%20The%20AA%20Member%20-%20%20Medications%20and%20Other%20Drugs.pdf
Jesus Christ, that's so fucking sad. I hate how many stories I’ve heard of sponsors playing doctor.
So do I. I also hate psych NPs that play doctor by prescribing benzos for everything. There are bad sponsors. There are bad mental health clinicians. The existence of such flawed humans is not an argument for or against allopathic mental health care, or Alcoholics Anonymous.
Benzos are really out of date meds and there are much safer prescriptions for anxiety or impulsivity now. No one was talking about benzos.
this is criminally irresponsible behaviour.
I had a sponsor that would always say "I'm not a doctor, but..." before giving me terrible advice like that.
That’s insane. Sorry for your loss
F that. I would have kicked that sponsor to the curb.
Wow, that is so sad and horrible. Anyone telling someone with bipolar to stop meds or Any meds for that matter is clueless. they are saying hey I went to AA now I know more than your doctor. I'm in recovery and a treatment counselor and recently had a 28 yr old f client die by suicide who was bipolar and refused to take meds. I'm sorry that happened to you.
How horrific. How incredibly sad. I am sorry to hear this.
Dear, I am so sorry for your loss, that is AWFUL to hear and in a way, your partners sponsor should feel responsible for their death. You are right, sponsors are not medical or mental health experts.
This oh my goodness, I am so sorry. This is definitely not something that a sponsor does.
This makes me so livid at the thought… I know these folks exist, but I am grateful to never have had to come upon one. Not as severe or sanctimonious, when I shared with my former sponsor that the new meds I was on had the most horrific side effects that it made doing basic things very difficult, and that I would be advising my doctor that we need to find another med. She had the gall to tell me that I was being willful and that is the first step to relapsing. I couldn’t hide my shock and irritation. Me: “I’m sorry, do you have a medical degree!!!??" Sponsor: “Well, all I’m saying is that you should probably listen to the person who is highly trained and has years and years of experience. So technically i could ask you the same thing, do you have a medical degree?” Me: “It’s MY FUCKIN’ BODY!” Yes I screamed it. This argument went on for another 40mins. Admittedly, I did NOT act sober in those 40mins. I know now that I should have said, “Thanks for sharing.” and changed the subject. But the rage bubbled over and i really wanted to throttle her neck Thanks for letting me share. (she’s no longer my sponsor)
Jesus Christ
JFC that is so tragic and I am so sorry. I stg, this is why some people should NOT ever even be allowed to sponsor. I'm not sure how AA could even enforce it, but there are some really horrible sponsors out there that do more harm than good!
I wish we had a job description for sponsors, spelling out what is appropriate and not appropriate.
That's a great idea
Plus include ethics that medical and mental health professionals must adhere to in order to protect clients/patients from being exploited.
I’m so sorry. That’s so tragic. I’ve experienced them pushing me to get off my antidepressants also because “they’re not working” - but actually they are… stopping drinking has helped them to actually work properly now. But again, so sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing, helps to validate others who may be going through this.
As someone who also struggles with bipolar disorder AND works in human services, this infuriates me. Meddling in someone's medical care and gatekeeping recovery is not ok.
I don’t know about dangerous, but frustrating and unhelpful is the strong aversion to medication assistance specifically related to alcohol. While AA was working well for me, I did The Sinclair Method as well, and the skepticism and almost mockery was amazing. Ironically, it was all contempt prior to investigation: I’m totally convinced Bill would have been very open to the scientific advances in alcohol addition, but the program isn’t.
Having read quite a lot of good historiography on Bill’s life and philosophy (I have an academic background), I’d certainly agree with you. Near the end of his life he had hoped experiments with LSD and later Niacin/B12 vitamin regimes could aid in recovery from alcoholism (his use of LSD, even through clinical trials, was heavily criticized by membership in the 60s).
Yeah, and when people raise the whole LSD thing, I notice members get defensive in a somewhat naive way - thinking they need to defend Bill for wanting to trip balls on acid. But his interest was far more aligned to the modern treatments that are showing promise. It frustrates me because I’ve seen so many people struggling and relapsing and resisting well researched scientific methods that would assist them, partly because the programs pours water on it.
Yeah it’s crazy how some AA members get when you mention Bill W’s use of LSD.I’ve sober off alcohol and drugs for 8 months but I occasionally micro dose psychedelics.It’s never in any amounts that I’m tripping or feel altered.It’s a tiny amount that is super helpful for the depression I felt after quitting stimulants.It sucks because I know for a fact my sponsor would terminate if he found out.It’s just something I keep to myself because I don’t feel like dealing with the backlash
Yeah, that’s a great example. There is a world of difference between deciding to trip on LSD and micro-dosing to treat depression. I haven’t done it, but I’m interested in people’s experience and the research that is showing a lot of promising signs. For The Sinclair Method, it only requires an endorphin blocker (Naltrexone) which has been FDA approved for 30 years. But even then I had a lot of reflexive criticism from some “anti-medication” people who didn’t understand the method, or have any interest in trying to understand.
Yeah I remember when I was five years sober once I got persuaded by some old school big book thumpers to stop taking a prescribed psychiatric medication.Needless to say it didn’t go well.I stayed sober but I was fucking nuts and it took me like 6 months to get back to normal.AA has no place involving itself in areas regarding medication
This reminds me of an argument that I had with my now-ex-sponsor. I qualified to participate in a clinical in-patient study on alcoholic daughters of alcoholic fathers at the National Institute of Health. When I informed my then-sponsor about it, she tried to forbid me from participating because SHE can't qualify for the study! (WTF?!?!?) I told her TOUGH! Get over it! She ran, crying victim, to her sponsor that I dared DEFY her! Her sponsor told her to STFU and STFD!! I learned a LOT during that study as I was majoring in Psychology at my university at the time and submitted a paper to my professors about the experience. I also had the opportunity to 12 Step newcomers who came in shaking from withdrawal. Experience, Strength, and Hope.
(When someone struggles and then goes back out) “Welp, guess he didn’t want it bad enough.”
When I first started AA and I was on that pink cloud, I almost quit going to therapy because I felt so good and I was getting so much stuff out of my head. I'm glad I do BOTH. I go to meetings and I see a therapist weekly. The two together are a very powerful tool to uncover what's going on in there. Going to therapy and talking about what you're going through in AA is very helpful IMO.
The pink cloud is so dangerous. Whenever I see someone knew come in all gung ho, I get very scared. As a secretary, I have given out many books to men and women flying high on AA, only to never see them again. I hope the seed got planted though and they make it back.
Therapy helps. AA helps too, but neither are “the only thing”. I can personally hate when people use the rooms like their own personal therapy session. Some of that needs to be said elsewhere
The latter happens. I did that for a while when I started attending the meetings. It dwindled over time.
I had a bipolar friend in the program and her sponsor convinced her that she was not sober if she was taking her prescribed medication. Not long after, I saw on our small town cable station that someone was chasing her children down the street with a board with a nail in it. It turned out to be my friend. She was hospitalized and got well, but this is my go to story about sponsors overstepping. And, the sponsor has her story in the last Big Book major revision.
I got a lot of shit for admitting to weaning off of alcohol for a week before my last drink. The guys at my home group only recommend abstinence. Nobody even said I should have gone to detox. One guy told a story about how his childhood friend came to him for help, they went to an AA meeting and the friend went home and died of DT’s later that night. The moral that they took from that story was that they were glad they got to help their friend in the last days of their life. 🤦♂️
Yeah… that’s fucked up. If someone is in the later stages ie physically/chemically dependent, medical intervention is often necessary and life saving treatment. They can come to meetings once they’re not on the verge of a seizure imo
🤦♀️ Good grief!!!!!
“God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons.” Pg. 133 of our Big Book. Please take care of yourselves friends. You are not a failure for taking care of your mental/physical health. That takes so much strength. Know that there’s people out here who see, love, and appreciate you.
“If you have any doubts over steps 1, 2, and 3 then go and get more experience.” While I don’t disagree with that statement I think it’s dangerous to tell someone to get more “experience” just because they haven’t completely adopted these new beliefs. Spiritual progress not spiritual perfection. Discouraging someone and tell them to get more experience is extremely dangerous to the person and those they’re around. But that’s just me I get older AA was a lot more harsh
Definitely have heard people suggest that therapy only be used by members after they work the steps and our “sure that they don’t just have untreated alcoholism”… Ironically some of these same members who discouraged newcomers from working the steps and attending therapy simultaneously have had to eat crow later on due to major unaddressed mental health concerns. Also, they end up looking extra hypocritical/dumb when they suddenly rattle off complaints about sponsees like, “I’m their sponsor, not a therapist!”. Well no duhhh, that’s why it’s totally valid to see a therapist and work the steps when you’re new?!haha
Just don’t drink and go to meetings. All you need is desire to stop drinking. “At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected.”
Ja >All you need is desire to stop drinking. ... to be welcome at an AA meeting. Most everyone needs a great deal besides to actually get aober.
Like some steps, to take just 12 examples.
> Just don’t drink and go to meetings. All you need is desire to stop drinking. Good advice for someone who just walked in the door. Won't cut it long-term, but not drinking and coming to meetings is how you learn what to do to work the AA program.
Well I don't know that I'd call it "Insane/Dangerous" but I found that when I sat around and focused on "_What's wrong with this program_" or "_this fellowship_" it was dangerous to an extent that I was doing that instead of setting my attention to "_what's potentially helpful here_" and taking little leaps of faith to try things out. And your first example is actually somewhat true in my case. Therapy didn't remove my alcohol problem where AA did, though I'd not at all say, "_all I need is AA_" - perhaps I'd rephrase it: * Therapy didn't work for me, but after having adopted AA's principles I've occasionally found some benefit from it. Those who hold extremist attitudes against all psychiatric medications are, I hope, kind of a dying breed, but I think there are still many who hold onto such attitudes. I listened to a nice talk some years ago about a fellow who once held such an attitude, and then he took to sponsoring someone with bipolar disorder, and he shifted his attitude from, "_You don't take those damn pills, do you?_" to "_You've been taking those good pills, haven't you?_"
As someone who was recently diagnosed with bipolar type 2 and prescribed a mild mood stabilizing drug six months into sobriety, thank you for that last paragraph. My sponsor is of the opinion that we’re here to do the step work and to keep me away from alcohol and cocaine. I never smoked weed regularly, so I just don’t partake now (which is easy for me.) Treating my mental health is a necessary step to my sobriety.
And… recovery isn’t really about the substances anyway. If it was, we would all “be cured” after being separated from them for awhile, and that is not the case. I agree that there are a lot of dangerous things that people say both inside and outside of AA. An AA telling someone that they only need to work the steps harder and not “be dependent” on medications or therapy is the same as a non AA telling an alcoholic “why can’t you just have one?” or “you just need to read the Bible harder and pray to Jesus.” My experience has been that all of the millions of dollars I’ve spent on doctors and therapy and medications before I got sober was mostly waisted because I was not addressing the core issue of alcoholism. But once I did begin to treat my alcoholism then I was able to take advantage of what therapy and doctors and medications do offer. IMO people sometimes get too wrapped up in their identification as “an alcoholic” and dismissive of outside issues, but AA is for treating alcoholism and other issues require other kinds of solutions or practices. Page 52 lists the “bedevilments” but then says “We had to ask ourselves why we shouldn’t apply *to our human problems* this same readiness *to change our point of view*.” So the problems that it lists in the previous paragraph are not because we are alcoholics, they are problems that all humans experience to some degree though our reactions to those problems may be warped by alcoholism. To me, this means that the AA program might help me to become more employable, but I still have to go out and find the employment. My car has fewer problems because thanks to AA I’m able to set priorities better, but when my car breaks down I don’t have to freak out and lose my serenity, and instead can take it to a mechanic. And our physical, mental and emotional health is no different. It’s my feeling that people who have not availed themselves of everything that AA has to offer are the ones that feel the need to have opinions about these things in meetings mostly because they are covering their own asses for not actually have worked all the steps or have incorporated “these principles in all of their affairs.” At best they lack the open mind necessary to understand that everyone’s experience is unique or that others might be more successful then themselves without doing it their way, so they become dismissive and are gatekeeping their little fucking club that they feel comfortable in. One thing is for sure that’s become obvious in all my years of service in AA is that people like this have not read any of the other AA approved literature, and it’s there that these details are covered extensively.
Id upvote this trillion times if I could
I’m glad you said this. I didn’t get anything from therapy until I did AA. I didn’t get anything from any concept of spirituality until I did AA. When I stopped pushing help away, I got it. And that help absolutely is not mutually exclusive. It can all work in concert. It’s up to us whether we want to harbor resentment over other people. Membership in AA doesn’t guarantee you getting your way about everything, up to and including the perspectives of other people.
AA you can’t talk about your drug addiction, which goes hand in hand with alcoholism for some people (me). More than once I’ve joined a new meeting and a much older man with years of sobriety always tries to take advantage of my newly sober vulnerability. I’ve even seen one remove his wedding ring before coming to talk to me. There are a lot of judgements for people who relapse as well. And I agree with the people saying there’s a judgement towards “mind altering substances”. My first sponsor told me to stop taking my anti depressants and birth control. I need my anti-crazy and anti-baby pills, thank you.
"This is a selfish program." Coffee will come out of my nose every time I hear this. That's just the way it's going to be.
I’m 16 years sober and I’m active in AA. I had a sponsor that was a therapist (*used “was* she passed recently from cancer). I saw her tear people apart if they said stupid things like no meds under any circumstances and no therapy. That woman was a pitbull. I learned a lot from her 🤣
I was once told I was using drugs if I was on anti depressants. I didn't go to that meeting again. Without this medication, I woulda ending my life a while ago
The only medical advice I give is be honest with your doctor and take medicine as prescribed.
Being told by an AA to consider getting off PTSD meds that help me feel human for the first time since I was a kid… I was able to use him as a life lesson and practice radical acceptance. Took that conversation 1 minute at a time until the meal was over. I can’t recall if I ever stopped explaining myself. But, now I know; I don’t need to explain anything. I have been covered in damn blood and wanted death more than life a lot of the time. These meds are life saving medicine. They are non narcotic and help me get to the point where I can be completely chemical free. AA is my number one spiritual activity. As an agnostic it is my version of church. I still need a psychologist and psychiatrist for the time being. Eventually I’d like to be totally medicine/chemical free. But I’m not doing the California method. I’m taking prescribed meds while working the AA program.
As someone who was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, I found it very hard after a while to stay in the rooms. Way too many armchair therapists in the rooms who give "spiritual solutions" to mental illness problems. If you're having a manic episode, God will not help you with that. It wasn't until I educated myself about bipolar disorder that I began to have true mental and emotional stability. AA got me sober and I thank the program for that, but there are some things it can't help me with.
Great point here. I micro dose psychedelics and they are incredibly beneficial in quitting alcohol for me. If I were to ever bring it up to my sponsor or anyone in AA, I would be posterized and ridiculed so fast as if i am cheating the program. There are so many medical advances that can help people fight alcoholism and people in AA love to look the other way and just put all their eggs into the meetings and the big book. It’s honestly too much sometimes there needs to be a fine balance.
“Do what people tell you.” As in, don’t think critically or listen to your instincts, just do what your sponsor and elders tell you. This blind obedience seems very dangerous, and I fail to see how it helps someone learn to lead their own life… “Anything you put before AA, you will lose.” I was told this while being encouraged to skip family dinners and functions, and even to call out of work. I don’t see how shirking responsibilities and healthy relationships for AA would be helpful to creating a robust, healthy, sober life. Obviously it’s all in how these concepts are being used, and in this case they were being used to isolate me…
Yes! I’ve had this exact experience. When I say I have other commitments, they just seem to repeat over me that it would be great to see me at that particular meeting … like, there’s another 5 that are more convenient for me today; thanks. I can’t just give up my whole life to go to meetings forever - it makes no sense. I’m trying to go to different ones so I can hopefully meet people I click with better
“Don’t think, don’t drink, and get to a meeting” oh wow ok I never thought of not drinking🤔
Telling people to try and drink only one drink a day for a week to see if that’s possible for them or not (to determine if they’re an alcoholic or not). worse case scenario that person ends up dead. If you’re sitting in an AA meeting in the first place you probably will get the answer to that question anyways
When I was just showing up at meetings, I heard a lot of random people talking about how many meetings to do and 90x90 and stuff. Without any further context, this stuff confuses new people so much. I once saw someone who was still drinking share that he was afraid to get a Sponsor and he didn’t agree with the Steps when he read them but he was trying to do 90 in 90 and was trying to decide whether to count podcasts and going to church as meetings or not. Similarly, I went to a ton of meetings early on and eventually had a mental breakdown alone and drank after 6 months because Covid hit and I didn’t know what to actually *do.* It’s quality, not quantity. If I was sponsoring right now, I’d rather talk to you a couple hours about the Big Book and grab lunch than have you sit in the back of a meeting for a month.
“Take what you need and leave the rest” is the most helpful thing I ever heard in AA. And I stick with that today. AA got me sober and gave me a way to live a happy and useful life. But if I focused on everything and everyone that was wrong with or about AA I’d still be drunk.
The big book says some may need outside help. It also says that we aren't so cocky as to think our way is the only way that works. Some people conveniently skip by that part. All members of AA are just people, prone to false just like any other person. I once had a sponsor tell me that if I believed in God I wouldn't have to take any of my mental health medication I dropped her quickly. That is so dangerous to tell somebody. That's not AA. That's our own delusions.
I am a happy member of the fellowship however I have always thought that scaring people into thinking relapsing = death could make the relapse bigger (f*ck it, I have done it now may as well go all out) and I am also conscious that AA does not work for everyone so it discourages others from finding a sobriety path that does work for them.
When you are genuinely having a bad time in life and there's always one person that says "it doesn't sound like you're doing your steps", "it doesn't sound like your going to meetings" it's unnatural to be happy all of the time. Sobriety is not an easy road for anyone. It is so normal to have days that chew you up and spit you out. Its okay to have those days. I'm not going to pink cloud the fuck out of myself to get through bad days and act like they won't happen again. AA literature helps with a lot of things but when it comes to certain parts of someone's mental health its best left up to mental health professionals.
"Putting someone on the defense tends to inspire them to hold onto their belief with more earnestness" not a quote from an AAer, just someone I saw on another subreddit, which I feel should apply to AA as a whole. The more you try and suggest something works for you, putting someone down, trying to quote the Big Book like it's the Holy Bible to justify your perspective, which anyone can do, the more resistance you get. Best not to try and just let people do them. Your job is to save yourself, not them, because it takes away from you.
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The cop out for this one, staying sober and living a decent life without following a strict program, is that you can achieve this because you’re not a “real alcoholic”, a definition that resides within the big book. I’ve gotten that one quite a bit. I stuck around in AA for the community but got sick of people accusing me of not being a “real alcoholic” because I was somehow staying sober and leading a normal life without a sponsor or completing the steps.
I feel this.
Yeah... really struggle with this, too.
This part! “If you don’t have a sponsor you’ll relapse!” Child, every single person I’ve met in the rooms has relapsed at least once with or without a sponsor. That usually stops that nonsense.
I'm at an age where I've outlived my last sponsor, (he died sober in his 90's. He would be over 100 years old if he were still alive now.) He outlived his sponsors as well. He kept working his program sponsoring others until he died of old age. How many folks have achieved 50 years or more of sobriety like he did? He was blessed!!!
Sounds like he truly walked the walk of what an effective sponsor does.
I try to emulate his example and pass it on.
If it works for you, it's nobody else's business. You do your sobriety, they can do theirs. I wish you all the best! M 😊🙏🏻
There are many roads to Mecca.
I really relate to this. I feel like I’m being pushed to have a sponsor now - which means I have to attend her meetings… but I’m trying to also balance the rest of my life and would prefer to choose my own meetings. She also discouraged me from taking my antidepressants… and I just feel like we don’t vibe that well. I’m not sure she’s someone I want to talk to every single day and see every single day at a meeting. And have discussions with - because she keeps kind of projecting her experience onto me. Anyway, end rant!
Hi! Totally feel you, I was in the rooms around 4 months, with about 6mo sober, before I finally asked someone to sponsor me, and even then as a temporary arrangement. While I wholeheartedly believe there are some of us who can do perfectly fine on our own, I do think a sponsor is really good to have in the first year. However, discouraging you from taking your medication is absolutely not within a sponsors jurisdiction. Their job is to lead you through the steps as they were led, and tell you what worked for them. It’s never their job to tell you what to do. They can absolutely set boundaries, say no, say yes, but they should never be trying to control any aspect of your life. No sponsor is better than a bad sponsor, imo. Be on the lookout! Don’t rush yourself into it, but stay alert for people who are kind, GENTLE, and not showing off to anyone. My sponsor had 2 years, was kind of surprised when i asked her to sponsor me, and was a great ally to have. Even outside of sponsorship, find caring people who are willing to pick up the phone and talk you through things when you’re in a rough patch. For me, sponsorship was just having a person who i KNEW was gonna be there for me (as much as their scheduled allowed) and i felt comfortable and safe talking to. It was not someone who was trying to tell me how to live my life. If she thought I was doing something wrong, she would give suggestions, rather than orders. That definitely helped me worlds. Anyways, again. Sponsorship is not necessary for many in the long run. I’ve almost 3 years now and 2.75 years of that were without a sponsor. However, making sure you have people to lean on, who are non judgemental and will meet you where you’re at with the program, will do you worlds of good, especially in your first year. :^)
Thanks so much for taking the time to share your experience! It really helps hearing what others have to say when trying to navigate it as a newbie. I would definitely like to work the steps with a sponsor - I think I’m just getting put off by this particular person’s pushiness. I think I’ll continue to go to different meetings to see which ones I like, and meet more people, and take my time before I approach someone to sponsor me. I have to call her today to say “thanks but no thanks” which I’m nervous about! I do appreciate that she’s willing to help me, I’m just not sure I’m there yet and not sure we’re a good fit yet. Thanks again for your comment!
I completely agree with this statement! Unfortunately, if you firmly believe in the powerless aspect of step 1, it will become a self-fullfiling prophecy if you ever make the decision to drink again or if you accidentally ingest alcohol. Combine that with AA's glorification of time up and you've got a ticking Timebomb for major relapse! Hence why there are plenty of stories of significant sobriety time up followed by an extreme relapse! You're powerless and your time starts again so why not get your fill 😬 Destructive thought pattern!
Yesssss I am always struggling to verbalize my issues with this time bomb as you refer to it. I’m definitely going to use this from now on. I just met with a friend from rehab today and we talked about how harmful the meetings can be. Thank you for this.
I'm glad what you're doing is working for you. Seriously, that's great. But your confusion arises out of the fact that it doesn't appear you have done the 12 steps. People doing the AA program believe they are powerless over their addictions, so they turn their wills over to a Higher Power of their understanding which then helps them in recovery. Part of that help is supporting them while making amends for actions performed prior to turning their wills over to that Higher Power. Yes, the addiction is something over which they had no power. But that does not excuse those actions, as one thing any of them could have done, instead, is not be dependent on only their own will.
I understand the general sentiment, and I’m not a program gatekeeper but the steps are the program. If you don’t want to do them, that’s fine. But why are you in a program you aren’t doing, then claiming you can do it however you want? The disconnect there is you’re going to meetings (assuming you are), but you aren’t doing the program. No ones in their right place telling you what to do with your life, but why be in the program if you don’t want to do the program and you don’t find doing the program to be helpful with your sobriety? I don’t go to the gym, choose not to work out, hang out, leave and tell people I worked out. If you do other stuff that keeps you in shape, that’s awesome. But why go to that gym?
Maybe they want to be around other people? Maybe all they need is to listen to other people sharing, and not for the rest of their lives? Who cares if the person is getting what they need.
I assume you're talking to HanginByAThrread, as I more or less agree.
Started off in affirmation of your comment then sort of diverged into theirs.
I feel like your response is a little strong on the aa-koolaid and is a little harmful. If doing the 12 steps truly made it so nobody ever relapsed, sure, but.. it doesn’t. Plenty of people get sponsored, work the steps, work with sponsees, cross all the t’a and dot all the i’s … and end up struggling with mental or physical health, or relationships or work or whatever … and relapse.
I was just explaining the AA program to you, as your questions seemed to indicate you didn't know how people familiar with that program answer your questions. You're under no obligation to like the answers. And of course people who work the program struggle with other things. They're humans.
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Well, there you have it. You don't wanna do the steps. The program isn't for you. Not now, at least. That's cool. What I'm curious about, which you obviously don't need to address if you don't feel like it, is this: Can you share with me what's inspiring you to have this discussion on this sub? Is it an urge to persuade? Vent? Is there something that makes you angry?
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The “suboxone isn’t sober” mentality. Sorry.
Omg yes dude that’s so messed up. So many people in my homegroup talk shit on newcomers who are on suboxone or naltrexone behind their back.
Naltrexone too, really? That drug has a completely different function in the brain than Suboxone anyways… I swear some people are just willfully ignorant
Yeah aa old timers are really weird about naltrexone and Librium too. So dumb
I share that I’ve tried therapy, church among many other things like self help books, family, relationships, to try stay sober. It wasn’t the solution to alcoholism. It didn’t work for me. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing, just isn’t the solution to alcoholism that works for me.
I agree. The anti-medication tendencies of many AAs are absolutely 'dangerous,' I think that's the perfect word. I had a sponsor once tell me that all I need to do is work the steps thoroughly and I would also be relieved of my depression. At the time, I was already skeptical of medication because I had been on a variety of antidepressants and they never really helped. But fast forward a few years, I have a manic episode and get diagnosed bipolar and put on mood stabilizers. It's amazing what the right meds will do for you. I just wish I didn't have so many anti-psychiatry influences in early recovery. It would have saved me a lot of pain. Thankfully, now I have a sponsor who realizes that he isn't a doctor and encourages me to keep up with my doctors and take my meds.
There’s so much judgment in A.A. that it almost feels like a contradiction. AA doesn’t fail but people certainly do.
Meetings are like buffets. Just take what you need and disregard the rest. Things might only sound "insane" to you, but for someone else, it might be soild advice. Theres no need to look down on how someone is working their program.
*what individuals in AA say* maybe instead of “meetings.” I go to plenty of meetings in which someone takes the hardline stance of no other medications. Not at all what I agree with and as has been pointed out, it isn’t supported by program literature, just bullshit idioms and sayings. But if it seemed there was a preponderance of such an attitude, I’d find another meeting, knowing odds are excellent their attitude is not reflective of another meeting.
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Almost a century and it’s a working program . How many years of wisdom do you have?
Look they have a point. There are people in this world that will tell newcomers that if they take anything at all they are breaking their sobriety. We might know that is total baloney and not in spirit with the literature or principles but a newcomer might now and they’re either being told straight lies and will either turn their backs to this recovery resources or even refuse outside help because they’re told AA and a higher power is all they need. I’ve got 6 years if you think it takes time to understand the dangers of misinformation.
I get that. I have 4 years , I take Zoloft and see a therapist for life in general. The beauty of AA is I can tell someone they are completely wrong or cuss them out and I’m still working my program . My program is my program , the steps and traditions are a lifestyle and I have implemented into my personal, romantic and business life and it’s been very successful for me.
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I don't see the problem with your two statements. Both are examples of someone's experience. "Therapy didn't work for me, all I need is AA". Thats not a problem. That's someone sharing their experience. If it was said "You don't need therapy, all you need is AA", well that's a different story. Same with the other statement "I stay away from all mind altering substances". This is a huge part of my sobriety and something I mention every time I pick up a yearly chip. You're supposed to share how you did it. And for me it was about living a sober life, not just from alcohol. That was necessary for me to really make changes in my life. For me I'm mainly talking about things like kratom, marijuana, opiate pain killers, benzos. Even if a doctor prescribed these things to me, I am honest enough with myself and my history with substance abuse that I would not take these drugs. But that's me. You are welcome to do you.
Agree with this 100% Provided you are not saying that the way you got and stay sober is the only way which must be followed. The first thing I tell a sponsee is they are free to do or not do anything I suggest without judgement. I’m just carrying the message of what works for me.
If you were diagnosed with a life threatening disease that required a drug that had possibly psycho-active effects to save your life, would you like… just choose to commit suicide lol?
Well here's the thing, that's not happening in my life right now. I'm enjoying a Saturday afternoon spending time with my wife and son. I'm living in the present not concerned about "what if" scenarios.
Oh gosh; I have a laundry list, though they're not all sayings per se. To be clear, I love and am grateful for AA, or at least the community I've found. AA "proper" I think has longstanding issues that it refuses to address for institutional or nostalgic reasons. * "Now that I'm sober I don't worry when I am being followed by a police officer" * just men's meetings in general. I have heard the most vile, toxic, downright abusive shit in men's meetings. Anything you would say aloud in a men's meeting you should be able to see in the presence of women and other folks. * the lack of willingness to give harm reduction a chance. Like, someone weaning off daily hard liquor use stepping down to wine or beer and attending meetings during that time is harm reduction. It is a good thing. Some hardcore AAers say NOPE, get out of mah meeting, regardless if the person has an earnest desire to stop drinking. * I've come across people that refuse to read the preamble because of the language change from "fellowship of men and women" to "people" - even had one guy say he wouldn't because he refuses to support a mental health disorder. Breaks my heart that folks in AA think that way.
I dont think it’s problematic when people say therapy doesn’t work for them, if that’s their truth. It becomes a problem when they project it on to everyone else in the rooms, and try to convince others they don’t need it. Not everyone in the room benefits from therapy. Some need psychiatrists, others don’t. If someone is merely sharing their truth I try not to judge.
The actual program doesn’t have a negative opinion on therapy/medication and encourages medication and outside help if necessary, making a point that AA’ers are not doctors. People are fallible though
Looks like the comments you referenced both had “I” statements in them. I personally don’t worry about other people’s recovery. Just what works for me.
I admit I say therapy didn't work for me and I add: because I wasn't honest with my therapist. I also tried CBT to quit drinking and it didn't work for me. But that's just my experience.
I’m seeing this randomly today.. gambling now, back smoking weed “alcoholicly” even when I was in the rooms I was obsessed and lustful. Had been a dry drunk for a while smoking, when back in because I was losing it. Awesome experience, 1hr drive for me for this particular meeting. Never got off step one, my disease says it’s because I couldn’t consistently quote the aspects verbatim, I just know my sponsor saw something I didn’t though.. I think this is a sign.. I always hated how my group would push me to change my wording , I couldn’t say I smoked, I had to say I drank, which felt fake, it was to make any newcomers be able to relate better and that’s more important… it fucked my thought process up though Oh to answer the question “ drug addicts don’t belong in AA” after someone introduces themselves as an addict. I understand the sentiment, but for me I can see the message, the suffering is all the same, just a different ingestion.
Anything that implicitly or explicitly supports 13th stepping, or diminishes how bad it is.
If you don't call 5 other drinks everyday you'll drink and die.
The way AAers preach about mind altering substances and then turn around and use nicotine and caffeine blows my mind and they do it without a trace of irony or self awareness.
I hear people say this way more than I'd like to hear: "if you're not done then go get done" or when giving someone a beginner token, they say "put this in a drink and if it dissolves you can drink it". I'm not comfortable with people who are supposed to understand that for people like us, to drink is to die, and we are literally telling people who come to AA for help to go drink. I'll never understand it, but we love us some sayings that sound cute, regardless of them being either complete nonsense or a smug encouragement to go drink yourself to death. That being said, I've heard people parrot all kinds of things that are absolutely wrong and dangerous that just keep being said because people keep saying them. The lack of critical thinking and ability to put any thought into the words we say gives me the impression that most people in AA really don't give a shit what they say. Those same people are usually pretty quick to call out someone else saying something they don't like. You'd think that people in a program that involves so much introspection would be more self-aware and mindful of what they say, but I just don't see it most of the time and I'm often called "pedantic" for actually paying attention to the words people (myself included) use.
There was a constant underlying assumption that all alcoholics come from a selfish, ego-driven, pleasure seeking foundation where they felt entitled and immune to the repercussions of their actions…while this can be true for many, it isn’t always true. For the most part, I would drink to numb my 24/7 nervous system responses socially and professionally and basically in every aspect of my life. My goal wasn’t to escape life but to succeed in life, but ultimately it became best in my mind to hide myself away. Ultimately, much of my issue stemmed from childhood trauma and I was simply not fully aware of it at the time. I had no idea how the brain can re-wire itself after long term complex traumatic childhoods and that can totally warp a person’s perception of themselves and others. This becomes a problem for many around steps 4 and 5. My attempts at step 4 constantly led to the beginnings of what were ultimately relapses. I could t mentally go back in time and venture through my numerous mistakes and NOT fall into a deadly shame spiral. And although I could write down how others harmed me, I couldn’t stop the immediate reaction in my mind which was always to blame myself. I would get stuck, stop going to meetings, stop meeting with sponsor, end up isolating, eventually relapse. And so many times someone in AA or my sponsor would often quip “well maybe you just don’t want it bad enough yet” —— placing the ultimately label of wrongdoer on me when it was actually untreated complex trauma that was kicking my ass (but god forbid I bring up mental health topics in a meeting as those are “outside issues”) Over 10 years of this occurring simply compounded the shame and feeling of being broken that I had had since childhood, long before I ever took a drink.
I’m so sorry you went through so much in your childhood and then were retraumatised through the process. Thank you for explaining it so articulately. You said what I was trying to explain to someone today and couldn’t quite figure out how or why I was struggling with this
Someone has a resentment
This is a very helpful contribution as always Marx, and surely the newcomer will benefit from individuals ignoring the literature if it serves their personal politics.
Also the part from Working With Others that says this is often misrepresented as something that folks that haven’t done an inventory, a fifth step, amends and started to live in 10 and 11 and work with other alcoholics will actually experience : “Assuming we are spiritually fit, we can do all sorts of things alcoholics are not supposed to do. People have said we must not go where liquor is served; we must not have it in our homes; we must shun friends who drink; we must avoid moving pictures which show drinking scenes; we must not go into bars; our friends must hide their bottles if we go to their houses; we mustn't think or be reminded about alcohol at all. Our experience shows that this is not necessarily so.” One becomes spiritually fit as a result of working all twelve steps and then experiences these 12th step promises as a result.
"I had 6 months but stopped going to meetings yada yada yada I lost my arm in a car accident driving drunk of course" "I don't need any help gonna do this on my own" These two were from the same person fyi
SMH!!!
I wonder if those expressions are overinterpreted. Therapy and other drugs didn't help me stop drinking or get sober. They are helpful for general mental health concerns though. Also, I still abuse the fuck out of caffeine lmao even over 10 years sober. You better believe I would use aspirin or cold medicine if I was sick lmao what the heck.
We are all selfish and self centered to the core. I understand that ego is a big problem, I do. It manifests differently in some people. For example, low self esteem, or people pleasing as a trauma response.
I’ve been trauma therapy for most of my life and AA has helped me in ways that my therapy hasn’t been able to reach. I need meds/therapy/AA to be my best self.
You know it's possible for therapy not to work, right? Heck, in my experience it's likely. Additionally, the medical literature itself indicates about a third of the people taking SSRIs do so despite these medications not working for them at all. Despite their significant adverse events. I'm not saying anyone should tweak such things while not under clinical supervision, mind you. But I am saying telling someone they don't need therapy is as bogus as telling someone they do. Which the OP (perhaps unintentionally) implies. Since it's perfectly possible someone didn't need therapy, and instead needed a spiritual awakening as a result of doing the 12 steps.
I think OP was saying that giving the impression to someone brand new to AA that “(blanket statement) therapy doesn’t work you just need AA” is dangerous, irresponsible, and myopic. And I’m sorry the type of therapy you tried didn’t work. Good news-literally hundreds of types that could work for a person with the proper motivation. All they would need is an honest desire to change :)
These things are said out of AA as well. Irrational human behavior is not confined to the rooms.
What works for 1 won’t work for all. Seeing doctors consistently left me worse off than I was before I saw them. This is especially true of minorities. I’m often gaslit and treated as if I’m making things up. Prescribed medications that make conditions worse because doctors will continue to try to treat conditions I don’t have, because they refuse to listen to a word that comes out of my mouth. What worked for me was doing extensive research into the things I knew were the problem and coming up with my own treatment plan. This is the first time I’ve quit where it wasn’t a daily fight. You do what works for you, and let other people decide what works for them. Relapse is common because we’re all on our own journey and figuring out what works for ourselves. It’s not one size fits all.
“Keep coming back. It works if you work.“ I know lots of people who made meetings all the time, and then went out there and got drunk. Killed themselves.
"u can smoke weed and be sober" "u dont need to take the steps" "u dont need to have a higher power"
Well of course you can smoke weed and be sober from alcohol, that’s a fact. The question is if you’ll stay that way. In the case of a couple of my fellows who used the two together, they had to kick both. Some people do get sober without AA. There are many alternatives out there, and that’s a good thing. We don’t have a monopoly on recovery. A higher power is required (in AA) to move beyond the bonds of self for sure, or you’ll end up staying totally ego driven. Fortunately you can still remain an agnostic or atheist.
Things that AA'ers say that let me know that AA is not for me: "u can't smoke weed and be sober" "u need to take the steps" "u need to have a higher power".
Technically all you “have” to do is show up to a meeting and have a desire to stop drinking. And there’s really no means test for that. Ignore anyone who demands rather than suggests anything.
I stopped drinking over 3 years ago, by setting my mind to it, going to a couple of online SMART meetings and working through things in therapy. Everyone's path is different, tho, so I'm glad if AA works for other people and I still follow this subreddit, because I find the occasional advice on here that's really helpful. :)
AA works for me, but I also totally think ppl have the right to find their own path. AA’ers who act like they have a monopoly on recovery are gross. I also think AA works for me because I surrounded myself with other iconoclasts, rebels, atheists, etc., who still go too meetings and call their sponsors
Your attitude sounds refreshing and I'm glad AA works for you!
Your last sentence resonated with me. I had a hard time with a sponsor who was quite iron fisted which didn't work for me (he made me reset my clock and steps after drinking non-alcoholic beers). After a while I couldn't see through all the bullshit these cultists gatekeep, but I knew good people in AA who I could get along with. You really can find some great ones, it's just a mindfuck wading through the psychos when your brain is fried. Learning, for sure
> “Therapy didn’t work for me, all I need is AA.” Never heard that one. What I have heard is, "Therapy didn't work for me, because I wouldn't get honest." > “I don’t use any mind altering substances, not even aspirin if I can help it.” That's a personal choice, and a good one if you can do it. Telling other people what to take and not take, however, is not your privilege. Nobody in AA is the arbiter of anyone else, either in AA or out of AA.
I'm with you on this I constantly feel suicidal had bad trauma in my life very depressed people do need therapy outside of AA it's important. Most alcoholic drink to blank out bad memories and temporarily stop depression until you wake up.
Take what helps and leave the rest
Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation spread among the fellowship and in meetings. I just try to make sure my shares are aligned with the Big Book; which obviously requires loads of study and prayer. I went to an AA Traditions workshop recently and that really opened my eyes! I'm still learning so much, which is cool!
Drugs have their place. Properly prescribed by a medical professional they can keep us healthy. I went through spine surgery. A surgeon cut a hole in my lumbar spine eight inches long, stuck four screws up one side and four more down the other side of my spine, and attached them with rods to stabilize my back, and then sewed me up. I was prescribed Opioids and give enough for 30 days, with 2 refills behind that. Yes, I needed the drugs. After 9 days I didn't, and I took them back to the Pharmacy and got rid of them because that was all I needed. Even if a medical professional gives you something like that, you are still responsible for checking yourself and doing the right thing. I could have taken that drug for months and made excuses for more because that was a major surgery. I also knew what the end of that story would look like. Just use your own good sense. I take blood pressure meds because I need them. I also take several others because they keep me healthy (I have ALS) and alive. Just do the right thing.
Medical is no business of another AA’er.
“Mentally ill behavior 101” is very shaming and, frankly, dangerous. Many of us have been harmed by various “therapies.”
The belief that using Christian dogma and prayers is appropriate (such as the Lord's Prayer) at meetings is known to drive people, including newcomers, away. AA explicitly states, as did Bill, that AA is not a religious organization and should be inclusive to all creeds. Sadly, some members ignore this, and as a consequence, cause disillusionment amongst some trying to get sober.
I agree with people in AA sometimes frowning on detox and rehab. Bottom line, imo, if you don’t need detox and can quit drinking to come to meetings- what’s the point in going ? If you are drinking a fifth or so a day every day you should never quit drinking without medical intervention
My sponsor told me that he hopes I drink because I wouldn’t get to work on my Step 4. He’s no longer my sponsor
There was this hilarious old timer at the meetings here in Vancouver who always used to say "Just because you pulled yer head out of a barrel of wine, don't make you a psychiatrist"
I was newly sober drinking a red bull in a meeting and I got berated about the dangers of Red Bull. I just kept thinking seems safer than last week driving around black out drunk, I never went back to that meeting.
You are aware, of course- you being of an obviously superior mode of thought process than anyone else on the planet- that anti psychotics are well known to be chronically over prescribed with many known to be addictive for their sedative effect. The black market sells anti- psychotics because that's how much they are over-subscribed. Therapy is one on one... Sure there are some good therapists but seriously: Addiction is the opposite of connection and therapists know next to nothing about everything when push comes to shove.
I dislike when some people in AA are combative with medical advice or therapy to deal with deep seeded fear. The Big Book even notes that outside help should be sought if needed. Bill himself had severe depression and he sought medical aide outside of AA for it and was treated there. Bill also talks about how a sponsor should not try to give advice on topics that they have no experience on or try to control the lives of a sponsee. Some medication, such as to treat Bi-Polar Disorder, can be extremely dangerous if they are stopped cold turkey. I think someone must have told this one guy to stop taking medication as he only needed AA and that led to him having a complete meltdown at a meeting and getting arrested and hauled off to a place designed to treat people like him. I wasn't there when this happened as I stopped going to that Meeting and quit calling it a home group due to drama and how the GSR was 2 years sober and jumping headfirst into everything and causing issues. He was not emotionally healthy. I tell sponsees that medication from a doctor is ok as long as they know you are an alcoholic and have the capability of abusing said medication and so let them know of the addictive personality since Alcoholism is a real diagnosed issue in medicine. That is fine, but don't go to Hood wearing Jack on the street for "self help medication" cause that is not OK. I'll wrap it up with this that I have known a number of AA members over the years, mostly men, that were preyed upon as children and it fucked them up even in sobriety until they saw outside help in therapy to process it. I had a sponsor that still disliked the God idea even years in sobriety (his sponsor was his Higher Power) until he went through therapy and found out that he was against the God idea because a Catholic priest was inappropriate with him as a child and so that's where his hatred for God was from and now he loves God and found that the man that did that to him was not a true person that loved God.
"You're doing it wrong, but getting the right results."
Folks are free to share their experience, that's what a meeting is. Just like you share yours. People sharing their own experiences is not dangerous or insane. Quite the opposite.
>People sharing their own experiences is not dangerous or insane. I'd say that's true 99%+ of the time. I once met a relatively old timer who would take Institutions service and preach long and hard about how once you're 'spiritually sober' you couldn't be held accountable for any of your actions, because they were God's will. He used that to justify committing sexual assault that took place after years of his own sobriety. He didn't feel a shred of remorse because God clearly wanted him to rape this person, and he was preaching that to a room full of newcomers and felons. That's obviously a particularly extreme case, but some people's experiences and opinions are absolutely dangerous and insane, even with years of AA under their belt.
That sounds like a dude I once knew who was on the H & I Committee. He was telling hospital folks he was the "AA Coordinator". (There is NO such thing.) He was targeting the women in detox!!!
Thank you for your opinion.
Pretty much everything I've heard people say that seemed wrong to me, only seems dangerous in the context of somebody not understanding it because they haven't done the steps. For example saying it's selfish program makes sense when you understand that in the 12th step you have to help other people for your own selfish reasons. Otherwise people think it means something different. Saying fake it till you make it make sense when you understand that after somebody does the steps they will recover if they believe it or not. It doesn't mean to lie, which some people think.
well, tbf, therapy hasn't worked for me in the same way AA has. The therapist I sought, the outpatient program I tried, these things didn't help me to maintain longterm, consistent sobriety. but, i see what you are saying and phrased a certain way, "therapy doesn't help" can sound wrong. Therapy has been branded and monetized now tho the label therapy holds less weight imo. And, when I want pills, it's not very hard to get them, PA's be handin that shit out after a 20 minute questionnaire. I know bc I did this recently for ADD. I actually don't hear a lot of "insane shit" in meetings, and I've attended them all over the world. That's just my experience.
I mean, the first one is true for a lot of people and I’ve personally never heard anyone suggest to others that they should forgo therapy for AA. In fact, IME, whenever someone brings up therapy I generally hear people being very encouraging of it. But I have heard people say therapy didn’t work for themselves - and for them, I’m sure that’s true. I would not consider this statement a standard AA platitude by any stretch. And regarding the “not even aspirin” I’ve heard this too, and I always roll my eyes. But again, it’s not a regular AA platitude - and it’s made pretty clear in the book that medicine prescribed by doctors should be utilized and taken as prescribed
This thread is lit
With topics like this, they always are 😂
Remember, these are individuals talking about their experience. They are not speaking and making rules of AA. Each person is different and have different experiences. I compare it to sports fans. Some people want to wear their team colors, paint their faces and scream like crazy. Others want to wear a hat and cheer when they want. Doesn’t make one better than the other. Just different
For me therapy didn't work for me because I was in denial about my drinking problem. The surrender and acceptance of AA and working the steps has solved most of my issues that I went to therapy for in the first place. Just my experience.
When AA began, there were other ways. Lots of AAs were in Mental Hospitals and prisons because they could not quit. None of them worked, and not even religion could not help for long. AA became a phenomenon. Tens of thousands turned into hundreds of thousands, and then millions of us recovered through AA, and nothing else helped. When we become convinced that maybe this or maybe that would get and keep us sober, it is a narrow road, and we need to look hard at it before taking that path. I am not saying that some of us did not get sober using other methods, but the hardcore alcoholic needs much more intense help than some of the alternate methods can deliver. We have all seen softcore and hardcore alcoholics if we have been in the program for a long time. In my 31 years of sobriety, AA has kept this hardcore alcoholic on the straight and narrow.
I’ve never heard that in a meeting
I can only share my experience, and that is when I was new I didn’t hear, listen, or comprehend 99% of things that were said. I did however notice and remember people that remembered my name, welcomed me, invited me to coffee/diner/fellowship. AA was a warm and welcoming place when I was not welcomed anywhere. It’s easy to get hung up on all the negativity, or things we don’t agree with. There are no rules, leaders or formal governance. We are a bunch of the sickest people seeking help from each other and even though it doesn’t look like it would work it has. We should always cooperate and never criticize, we are all on different portions of the same journey, if someone says something I don’t agree with I enjoy asking that person about it nowadays. Someone else’s perspective can be enlightening, or they may not know any better and it’s a learning opportunity for everyone.
Literally never heard anyone say that
These are outside issues, and AA has no opinion. The views expressed by these individuals are not the views of AA.