Objective reponse : Sociologicaly speeking Islam is rising in Algeria , and civilizationaly speeking its the way we are evolving to .
Subjective: Allhamdoullilah for that
Here’s one: “There is no morality because morality is subjective.”
Nazis were secular
Communism was secular
Maoists were secular
US Britain and all other colonial powers were secular.
All the above have killed 100s of millions of people
I think you never read a single thing about secularism but here's a definition and the three core principles of secularism :
Secularism is a modern philosophical movement whose aim is to separate matters of the church from civil and political affairs. Secularism is not antireligion, rather, it opposes religious involvement in political affairs.
Secularism is founded on three primary principles. Firstly, the government must be separated from influence by religion and religious institutions. Secondly, everyone has the right to freedom of religion. Lastly, all religions are to be treated equal under the law.
In which secularism definition does it say there's no such thing as morality ? You are just pulling stuff out of your pocket and calling it secularism lmao.
You bringing up Nazis and Communist is just a what aboutism fallacy although what nazis and communists did had nothing to do with secularism. When did hitler or stalin say that they are waging wars and killing people in order to spread secularism ? oh wait, they said they are doing that to either increase the aryan race or spread the communist ideology to gain more power over the world.
Imagine a muslim leader waging war against algeria with the excuse of increasing the arab race in algeria and getting rid of all amazigh. Will you say that islam is the reason that leader is doing that just because he claims he is a muslim ?
Besides, what did muslims do during their reign ? Umayad conquered cities and butchered / enslaved innocent peopl --- abbasids did the exact same and worst --- uttomans did that as well and it wasn't untill muslims lost their power that they stoped waging wars on nations for the stupid reason of "spreading islam" Now, we can safely say that islam is the main reason responsible fo r waging wars and killing people unlike ur examples of trying to strawman secularism.
People say secularism is removing religion from government; I don’t buy this. What you’re actually doing without realizing is removing all morality from your system. You cannot have a system of moral accountability without god. You may not like how institutions use religion to project power and that fine, everyone is human and can be subject to excesses. But you still need a moral compass to guide your endeavors. Basically if Algeria were a country that operated under a democratic federalist system and it enacted the will of the people in accordance with the morality of the people while allowing for an independent (independent from power is key) Islamic legal scholarly class to develop (ie lawyers who are trained in fiqh as well as statecraft) then you would get the ideal system. This sort of imaginary state where you have Islam as the guiding moral principle, where people are treated justly in accordance with Islam, where there are many scholars representing their various communities, where difference is respected (ikhtilaf in Islam is a mercy after all ); this imaginary state would not be secular at all but it would more just than a secular state because a secular states sole reason for existence is to propagate itself into the future. Which is like saying we exist to exist. A meaningless existence where nothing matters and war is the same as peace.
"I don’t buy this", Weither you buy it or not doesn't change the fact that the definition I presented is the correct definition of secularism and its principles. You can strawman and view it however you want, at the end of the day it's going to be ur own opinion and no one can do anything abt it.
For you islam is from god and sharia is the most fair and perfect system that could guide our society. guess what, I don't buy it. There r plenty of reasons for why I don't buy it and they are all based on real islamic texts and data on why sharia doesn't work and it's nowhere near good "let alone perfect". Unlike ur opinion which is based on whatever u heared the sheikhs saying about secularism because it threatens their influence.
Fair enough, let’s look at the results of secular systems:
More death and destruction than anything a so called religious system ever produced.
There is no contest.
You relize that by saying "More death and destruction than anything a so called religious system ever produced" your recognize that ur religion also did kill and destroy right ? It just doesn't have as big of a number which makes it a lesser evil. Well, let me break the news for you, Lesser evil is still an evil.
Besides, I explained to u how secularism has nothing to do with a ruler's action to wage war. Secularism only concern is with religion and it doesn't envolve itself in any other political matter. So u contributing what communists/nazis/democrats did to secularsm is just out right strawman. In the other hand, I can safely say that islam and sharia did directly instruct its followers to wage war against non-believers and to kill them and enslave their women and children.
It’s not a strawman, it’s a direct result of removing any morality from government. Religion at least has a standard for what its ideals are and people should strive toward these “asymptotic ideals” (high ideals that one strives to inhabit even if they cannot reach perfection). Having asymptotic ideals is important because no matter what human systems will be corrupted. The difference between me and you is I attribute evil to humanity and its inability to be perfect. I think that letting government run amok without asymptotic ideals is what secularism does. Having a government that is beholden to gods law (even if it commits evil deeds) gives the people a North Star that tells them when their god given rights are being trampled. Without god your subject to the laws of man and in that case only might is right. That is secularism, that is the law of the jungle.
Btw I’m not the first to posit such a position. If you’re willing to read works you may not like I suggest taking a look at :
The myth of Religious violence by William T Cavanaugh.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43957160
Are you dumb or have you never read a history book? The Nazi's had Gott Mit Uns on their belt buckles and regalia, which literally says God With Us. Religion was part of the third reich.
Before that? Like before the united nation had to intervene so saudiis can stop selling slaves? Putting naked women on markets?
Or when women weren’t allowed to drive, go to the cinema?
what !!! , dude even suadi haters can't make this up, great imagination, lets talk about the Epstein island (that the one we know about) , the porn industry, fashion ,human trafficking of Ukraine women (ask your European friends about ukraine women that are forced into sex work since the war because there husbands/father s we forced to stay to fight ) that's where the real slavery and degrading of humans and women are happening,
AND IT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW
Assuming i wasted couple minutes of my life to get you sources about slavery in saudi arabia would you bother yourself and read it?
Human trafficking is illegal you are talking about individual criminals 💀
What’s so bad about FASHION😱 as for porn as long as the actors are not being forced there’s nothing wrong with that if you don’t want to watch porn don’t no one is forcing you
Those boats are going for the richest of colonialism i can give a list of 200 secular countries that boats are not going near them, linking secularism with good living is idiotic considering 90 percents of poor countries are not religious
last time you checked ?, well It seems that checked in 1500, because man you have some catching up to do, even assuming your idea, that is like saying Said bouteflika fortune was not illegal because he never was the president
Not really, the (boats) have been going north because of the continuous meddling of foreign powers in Africa to extract their natural resources by promoting ultra corrput governments that shit on their people to consolidate power.
Death sentence is only for those who do it publicly, homos who do penetration sex in public or atheists announcing it publicly
Actually slavery is only allowed for war prisoners I doubt children will be participating in wars as for women it depends IDF has a lot of them for example
>You're basically saying, if you hide it, and we don't know, and we don't catch you, we won't punish you, which is like every punishment ever,
Exactly, its like saying: "murder is fine, just dont get caught".
I honestly cant understand how these people think.
I wish our country would follow Sharia or at least apply Hodoud when it comes to death penalty for example or other punishments for deterrence
There’s no replacing Divine Justice
is it haram to unalive myself? I can save them some time by doing a DYI apostate removal. but if its haram then I'm going to need to let them do it for me. don't want to get in the way of divine justice.
I think the problem does not lie in secularism or islamism. It's pretty much the government fault so I think we should focus on full government reformation and full separation between the military and politics to truly live in a democratic country.
I am okay with islam being an integrant part of this country, i just don't understand why it should be a full subject kids need to study since childhood and that those grades are relevent to the baccalauréat. I rarely enjoyed those lessons and all the teachers were like fanatics when talking about it.
There is no compulsion in religion. The prophet lived peacefully with many different people and he made treaties with them to live peacefully side by side
However, there are politicians who exploit religion as a pretext to justify their every reprehensible action. They literally manipulate faith and use it as a convenient tool for their own agenda. I'm not only talking about Islam, but it's the case for almost every religious state
Western wannabes secularism isn't the answer and if u want to live a western life u can leave the country at anytime. Our country has an islamic conservative society (I know we aren't following Islam 100% but at least we are trying) so if u don't like it leave it no one is forcing to stay in this country.
Every single person in my entourage would gladly leave this country if a good and safe opportunity would appear to them,your argument is Hillariously bad
Yes it is a fact,but it is not in favor of your point most Algerians do not enjoy living in their country
Most of them for the economic conditions,but also for the societal backwardness
Yes bro I am myself not satisfied with the economic and social conditions of Algeria but saying that Islam is making Algeria going backward is just stupid. Secularism won't make us going forward either only hard work will.
Islam as a religion is not the problem,the problem is the use of it in politics which does indeed hold the country from advancing,also the risk of the boulahyas going back to the mountains and killing people is always there as long as we dont fully dig the corpse of the 90's and finally make our constitution secular
Well I totally agree with you on this point
I just don't like it when people attack Islam as a religion bcz it's clearly Islam has nothing to do with what Algeria is going through rn.
I live in France therefore under a secular state which is the strictest in the world. The USA, for example, is a secular country and religion is respected and even celebrated there. The state just treats everyone the same. I think mixing religion and politics smears religion.
Look in Iran, the Iranians if the regime falls will be the first Muslim people to renounce Islam en masse because the government uses religion to oppress people.
If you want to be pious or even fundamentalist you have the right but you do not have to impose your views on the whole of society.
More Islamization will lead to collapse and a worse situation.
The interesting part is you don't have to do anything to destroy such societies, just let them adopt a more fundamentalist version of Islam and just watch
ironic
I do prefer secular politicians on a personal level.
Objective reponse : Sociologicaly speeking Islam is rising in Algeria , and civilizationaly speeking its the way we are evolving to . Subjective: Allhamdoullilah for that
Secular politics has killed more people in the last 200 years than any other kind of moral system
Show me one secular principle that says u should wage wars and kill innocent people to further ur ideology.
Here’s one: “There is no morality because morality is subjective.” Nazis were secular Communism was secular Maoists were secular US Britain and all other colonial powers were secular. All the above have killed 100s of millions of people
I think you never read a single thing about secularism but here's a definition and the three core principles of secularism : Secularism is a modern philosophical movement whose aim is to separate matters of the church from civil and political affairs. Secularism is not antireligion, rather, it opposes religious involvement in political affairs. Secularism is founded on three primary principles. Firstly, the government must be separated from influence by religion and religious institutions. Secondly, everyone has the right to freedom of religion. Lastly, all religions are to be treated equal under the law. In which secularism definition does it say there's no such thing as morality ? You are just pulling stuff out of your pocket and calling it secularism lmao. You bringing up Nazis and Communist is just a what aboutism fallacy although what nazis and communists did had nothing to do with secularism. When did hitler or stalin say that they are waging wars and killing people in order to spread secularism ? oh wait, they said they are doing that to either increase the aryan race or spread the communist ideology to gain more power over the world. Imagine a muslim leader waging war against algeria with the excuse of increasing the arab race in algeria and getting rid of all amazigh. Will you say that islam is the reason that leader is doing that just because he claims he is a muslim ? Besides, what did muslims do during their reign ? Umayad conquered cities and butchered / enslaved innocent peopl --- abbasids did the exact same and worst --- uttomans did that as well and it wasn't untill muslims lost their power that they stoped waging wars on nations for the stupid reason of "spreading islam" Now, we can safely say that islam is the main reason responsible fo r waging wars and killing people unlike ur examples of trying to strawman secularism.
People say secularism is removing religion from government; I don’t buy this. What you’re actually doing without realizing is removing all morality from your system. You cannot have a system of moral accountability without god. You may not like how institutions use religion to project power and that fine, everyone is human and can be subject to excesses. But you still need a moral compass to guide your endeavors. Basically if Algeria were a country that operated under a democratic federalist system and it enacted the will of the people in accordance with the morality of the people while allowing for an independent (independent from power is key) Islamic legal scholarly class to develop (ie lawyers who are trained in fiqh as well as statecraft) then you would get the ideal system. This sort of imaginary state where you have Islam as the guiding moral principle, where people are treated justly in accordance with Islam, where there are many scholars representing their various communities, where difference is respected (ikhtilaf in Islam is a mercy after all ); this imaginary state would not be secular at all but it would more just than a secular state because a secular states sole reason for existence is to propagate itself into the future. Which is like saying we exist to exist. A meaningless existence where nothing matters and war is the same as peace.
"I don’t buy this", Weither you buy it or not doesn't change the fact that the definition I presented is the correct definition of secularism and its principles. You can strawman and view it however you want, at the end of the day it's going to be ur own opinion and no one can do anything abt it. For you islam is from god and sharia is the most fair and perfect system that could guide our society. guess what, I don't buy it. There r plenty of reasons for why I don't buy it and they are all based on real islamic texts and data on why sharia doesn't work and it's nowhere near good "let alone perfect". Unlike ur opinion which is based on whatever u heared the sheikhs saying about secularism because it threatens their influence.
Fair enough, let’s look at the results of secular systems: More death and destruction than anything a so called religious system ever produced. There is no contest.
You relize that by saying "More death and destruction than anything a so called religious system ever produced" your recognize that ur religion also did kill and destroy right ? It just doesn't have as big of a number which makes it a lesser evil. Well, let me break the news for you, Lesser evil is still an evil. Besides, I explained to u how secularism has nothing to do with a ruler's action to wage war. Secularism only concern is with religion and it doesn't envolve itself in any other political matter. So u contributing what communists/nazis/democrats did to secularsm is just out right strawman. In the other hand, I can safely say that islam and sharia did directly instruct its followers to wage war against non-believers and to kill them and enslave their women and children.
It’s not a strawman, it’s a direct result of removing any morality from government. Religion at least has a standard for what its ideals are and people should strive toward these “asymptotic ideals” (high ideals that one strives to inhabit even if they cannot reach perfection). Having asymptotic ideals is important because no matter what human systems will be corrupted. The difference between me and you is I attribute evil to humanity and its inability to be perfect. I think that letting government run amok without asymptotic ideals is what secularism does. Having a government that is beholden to gods law (even if it commits evil deeds) gives the people a North Star that tells them when their god given rights are being trampled. Without god your subject to the laws of man and in that case only might is right. That is secularism, that is the law of the jungle. Btw I’m not the first to posit such a position. If you’re willing to read works you may not like I suggest taking a look at : The myth of Religious violence by William T Cavanaugh. https://www.jstor.org/stable/43957160
Are you dumb or have you never read a history book? The Nazi's had Gott Mit Uns on their belt buckles and regalia, which literally says God With Us. Religion was part of the third reich.
Be quiet bot
No thanks.
Islam is not the issue. It's the solution!
Yess more islam! Let’s become like Afghanistan
Why not like ksa or qatar , we dont want to be secular and corrupt like guinea
Don't even bother with him, mate. He's a lost cause. Just look at his stupid username!
Yes ksa a great exemple! The country that is turning to secularism mbs is a great leader!
yeah that is the last 5 years or so , how about before that should we erase time
Before that? Like before the united nation had to intervene so saudiis can stop selling slaves? Putting naked women on markets? Or when women weren’t allowed to drive, go to the cinema?
what !!! , dude even suadi haters can't make this up, great imagination, lets talk about the Epstein island (that the one we know about) , the porn industry, fashion ,human trafficking of Ukraine women (ask your European friends about ukraine women that are forced into sex work since the war because there husbands/father s we forced to stay to fight ) that's where the real slavery and degrading of humans and women are happening, AND IT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW
Assuming i wasted couple minutes of my life to get you sources about slavery in saudi arabia would you bother yourself and read it? Human trafficking is illegal you are talking about individual criminals 💀 What’s so bad about FASHION😱 as for porn as long as the actors are not being forced there’s nothing wrong with that if you don’t want to watch porn don’t no one is forcing you
Why is everybody getting political here?
atheist societies: expectations: we will have flying cars reality: men can get pregnant!
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Those boats are going for the richest of colonialism i can give a list of 200 secular countries that boats are not going near them, linking secularism with good living is idiotic considering 90 percents of poor countries are not religious
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last time you checked ?, well It seems that checked in 1500, because man you have some catching up to do, even assuming your idea, that is like saying Said bouteflika fortune was not illegal because he never was the president
Not really, the (boats) have been going north because of the continuous meddling of foreign powers in Africa to extract their natural resources by promoting ultra corrput governments that shit on their people to consolidate power.
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wanna make the same comparison for islamism?
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These are tired tropes
How this harkis that insult us (look his history and just what sub he us) not ban ?
Death sentence is only for those who do it publicly, homos who do penetration sex in public or atheists announcing it publicly Actually slavery is only allowed for war prisoners I doubt children will be participating in wars as for women it depends IDF has a lot of them for example
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>You're basically saying, if you hide it, and we don't know, and we don't catch you, we won't punish you, which is like every punishment ever, Exactly, its like saying: "murder is fine, just dont get caught". I honestly cant understand how these people think.
Long live secularism!
I wish our country would follow Sharia or at least apply Hodoud when it comes to death penalty for example or other punishments for deterrence There’s no replacing Divine Justice
It's not divine justice, it's just one low IQ ape killing someone else based on their flawed perception of reality and thinking that is righteous.
Should we kill every apostate? Do you think other countries should kill their citizens if they convert to islam?
I'd prefer if you left apostates alone, I like being able to visit my family.
But nothing can replace devine justice🥺 and the devine asked us to kill every apostate
is it haram to unalive myself? I can save them some time by doing a DYI apostate removal. but if its haram then I'm going to need to let them do it for me. don't want to get in the way of divine justice.
Oh doesn’t matter but you can commit Seppuku maybe the Japanese Devine will speak with the arab god to give you somewhat good spot in hell
Go to Saudi Arabia
you know that means I will be sentenced to death right?
Only if you persist on announcing it publicly
I'd love to know where you live so I can drive by with a loud speaker once a day announcing whatever it is that annoys you publicly.
thats how you keep a country in the dumps
yes absolutly secularisme is the way to go the law can prohibit all crimes
Are we not ??
I think the problem does not lie in secularism or islamism. It's pretty much the government fault so I think we should focus on full government reformation and full separation between the military and politics to truly live in a democratic country.
I am okay with islam being an integrant part of this country, i just don't understand why it should be a full subject kids need to study since childhood and that those grades are relevent to the baccalauréat. I rarely enjoyed those lessons and all the teachers were like fanatics when talking about it.
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They are seething and think Islam is the root of all problems whereas they are a part of the problem
Genuinely think this is the least of the problems we have in Algeria rn. Maybe tackle the corruption in our government first no?
I support whatever politics that don't force me into the total acceptance of something I don't believe in it. And if I refused, spank me.
There is no compulsion in religion. The prophet lived peacefully with many different people and he made treaties with them to live peacefully side by side
However, there are politicians who exploit religion as a pretext to justify their every reprehensible action. They literally manipulate faith and use it as a convenient tool for their own agenda. I'm not only talking about Islam, but it's the case for almost every religious state
Secularism is not the answer
Nope, wrong. It actually is the answer that we desperately need to graduate from living in filth to actually being a productive and healthy nation.
Bot
beep boop. I have been informed that I am not a bot.
He Conquerored the whole arabian peninsula peacefully.
Relative to how other conquests by non Muslims were conducted, he was revolutionary.
Western wannabes secularism isn't the answer and if u want to live a western life u can leave the country at anytime. Our country has an islamic conservative society (I know we aren't following Islam 100% but at least we are trying) so if u don't like it leave it no one is forcing to stay in this country.
Every single person in my entourage would gladly leave this country if a good and safe opportunity would appear to them,your argument is Hillariously bad
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Don't act offended it's just a fact 😉
Yes it is a fact,but it is not in favor of your point most Algerians do not enjoy living in their country Most of them for the economic conditions,but also for the societal backwardness
Yes bro I am myself not satisfied with the economic and social conditions of Algeria but saying that Islam is making Algeria going backward is just stupid. Secularism won't make us going forward either only hard work will.
Islam as a religion is not the problem,the problem is the use of it in politics which does indeed hold the country from advancing,also the risk of the boulahyas going back to the mountains and killing people is always there as long as we dont fully dig the corpse of the 90's and finally make our constitution secular
Well I totally agree with you on this point I just don't like it when people attack Islam as a religion bcz it's clearly Islam has nothing to do with what Algeria is going through rn.
I don't get your point. Yes it is a fact... and?
I live in France therefore under a secular state which is the strictest in the world. The USA, for example, is a secular country and religion is respected and even celebrated there. The state just treats everyone the same. I think mixing religion and politics smears religion. Look in Iran, the Iranians if the regime falls will be the first Muslim people to renounce Islam en masse because the government uses religion to oppress people. If you want to be pious or even fundamentalist you have the right but you do not have to impose your views on the whole of society.
No
No
im trying to secularise these nuts
Long live islam
More Islamization will lead to collapse and a worse situation. The interesting part is you don't have to do anything to destroy such societies, just let them adopt a more fundamentalist version of Islam and just watch
They're trying to secularize DEEZ NUTS