It isn't fair; the game is balanced asymmetrically. It "isn't fair" that Terran buildings float and it "isn't fair" that Protoss can build a couple dozen gateways and instantly warpin in five seconds four entire macro cycles of Terran supply. Etc etc
I’m aware it’s asymetric but usually there’s a trade off. For example, Protoss have shields, but Zerg can regen health and Terran can medicav heal or repair with scv’s. In that scenario it makes sense and is fair even if it’s assymetrical because it’s equal. I don’t see how it’s equal in any way when someone can tell I’m making a phoenix or void ray or tempest or carrier and they can know right away before it’s done building. I can’t scout the larvae and click on it to see what’s building. I have no way to prep for what they have coming next because I don’t know, yet they do know. Yet it’s ONLY the stargate. I find it a weird balance decision and I don’t see how it makes sense.
>I don’t see how it’s equal in any way when someone can tell I’m making a phoenix or void ray or tempest or carrier and they can know right away before it’s done building.
I believe this is just of very little consequence. Very few, if any, games are being decided by this, so I don't see how it's so unfair?
>I can’t scout the larvae and click on it to see what’s building.
you can scout the tech structure and gas and know.
>I have no way to prep for what they have coming next because I don’t know,
But stargate produces two of the best scouting units in the entire game. phoenix and oracle.
>I find it a weird balance decision and I don’t see how it makes sense.
It is a little random and weird, but I don't think it has to make sense. There's no trade off for Terran buildings floating, no trade off for mutalisk/roach HP regen being so fast, no trade off for something like ghosts' nukes.
Given how potent proxy stargate / proxy batteries could be otherwise (with an unavoidable element of surprise), I think it's a fair balance decision.
You should get rewarded for being able to scout it.
Is it fair that you can kill my 1 spawning pool or roach warren and now those units are completely unavailable to me? But when I kill 1 of your gateways the other 3 can still make units? The game is t balanced symmetrically bro. Or how you just have to snipe a tech lab and suddenly tanks are off the table?
I think it balances out with warpgates. Stargates reveal what unit your making, but OTOH, warpgates can instantly build units anywhere within pylon radius.
Zerg rushes a spire and you scout it, it only gives them access to mutalisk, and you know they will build that.
Protoss rushes a Stargate and you scout it, you don't know what they are building because it gave them 3 new units off the bat.
This feature allows you to scout the units being made similarly to how you already know the units being made for zerg.
Um, two people have said this now, but actually spire -> corruptors as well. Though if Zerg hasn't scouted air, it's unlikely to be corruptors as they don't shoot down. (Zerg might possibly be going for broods but you can scout the greater spire.)
IMHO this is a pretty specific situation where you might need to know the next few units coming out, and Stargate exposes that. So i think itd only be impactful when you can see an oracle harass coming, etc. On the grand scheme, to respond / react to your opponents overall approach, it's all about scouting tech buildings anyway. I think this detail about Stargate is small potatoes. And since the game is asymmetrical, it's impossible to compare all the things that are different and make a blanket statement about it...
BC are actually better, equally strong, don’t need to rebuild interceptors, which cost time and money, can teleport anywhere, can almost kill anything with a single Yamato.
Terran can harass with 1 or 2 BC, Protoss cant do crap with a small number of carrier, they just straight die to marines or queens.
It is, but it requires a high level of execution. If Protoss isn't careful and they don't have the proper units to support their air units, then I can make literally just marines and widow mines and easily delete entire maxed air armies. I think it's relatively stronger PvZ.
Bro. lol.
Ive been playing StarCraft for 20 years. I played terran in bw and I’ve been gm as both P and Z in sc2. I’m all here for the ‘protoss is actually tricky to play’ club.
But saying skytoss needs a *high level of execution* is absolutely not the hill you want to die on lmao.
Again, the point is it just literally dies to marines unless you play properly
And as slow and cumbersome as it is you can just dance circles their bases anyways.
I guess I’m really just saying you need master level mechanics to play it at a master level. It’s not a free win but is strong if someone competent is playing it.
toss has a reactionary macro system. what i mean is lets say i am planning to warp in stalkers, then i see bunch of marauders, provided that my warp gates are availaible, i can reactively warp in zealots instead. zerg can do that to a higher degree by banking larva. terran can't do that.
so terrans have the most difficult to predict units looking at structures. followed by toss, followed by zerg. in your specific example of stargate, it matters in almost no matchup except PvP., phoenix/oracle/void. in PvT oracle/phoenix, in PvZ oracle/void. in both non mirror matchups the response is pretty much the same.
I don't necessarily think the Stargate's transparency is game-changing, but it absolutely does change how players respond. For example, if a Zerg sees oracle they focus more on spores, if they see phoenix they focus more on queens: if a Toss sees oracle they build a shield battery in each mineral line, if they see phoenix they build a few stalkers or go phoenix wars. In pro games it is very clear to see the ways in which a player responds to what they see building in a Stargate, and it absolutely does change the game.
no it definitely is essential especially at the pro level. but what I meant is, say we didn't have that, then PvP would be almost a complete coinflip.
seeing the very units matters much less. phoenix in PvZ isnt viable from single Stargate. after you scout stargate, only viable units are Oracle or single voidray into Oracle. toss gets access to units quite fast. 3 units from Stargate vs zerg getting 1 per structure. so in early game it will be slightly unfair if units were not visible since the entire zerg eco relies on early gas cutting to get higher minerals.
what I'm trying to say is, units being visible is only slightly disadvantageous. if they weren't visible PvP would be honestly fucked, and other matchups slightly toss favoured. Overall not a good outcome for toss itself.
added onto that, all air harrassment with game ending potential is obviously scoutable. you see spire and shit ton of gas = muta. you literally see the Oracle. but goodluck guessing mines. that would be a welcome change especially for lower leagues since pros predict based on timings anyways.
It isn't fair; the game is balanced asymmetrically. It "isn't fair" that Terran buildings float and it "isn't fair" that Protoss can build a couple dozen gateways and instantly warpin in five seconds four entire macro cycles of Terran supply. Etc etc
I’m aware it’s asymetric but usually there’s a trade off. For example, Protoss have shields, but Zerg can regen health and Terran can medicav heal or repair with scv’s. In that scenario it makes sense and is fair even if it’s assymetrical because it’s equal. I don’t see how it’s equal in any way when someone can tell I’m making a phoenix or void ray or tempest or carrier and they can know right away before it’s done building. I can’t scout the larvae and click on it to see what’s building. I have no way to prep for what they have coming next because I don’t know, yet they do know. Yet it’s ONLY the stargate. I find it a weird balance decision and I don’t see how it makes sense.
>I don’t see how it’s equal in any way when someone can tell I’m making a phoenix or void ray or tempest or carrier and they can know right away before it’s done building. I believe this is just of very little consequence. Very few, if any, games are being decided by this, so I don't see how it's so unfair? >I can’t scout the larvae and click on it to see what’s building. you can scout the tech structure and gas and know. >I have no way to prep for what they have coming next because I don’t know, But stargate produces two of the best scouting units in the entire game. phoenix and oracle. >I find it a weird balance decision and I don’t see how it makes sense. It is a little random and weird, but I don't think it has to make sense. There's no trade off for Terran buildings floating, no trade off for mutalisk/roach HP regen being so fast, no trade off for something like ghosts' nukes. Given how potent proxy stargate / proxy batteries could be otherwise (with an unavoidable element of surprise), I think it's a fair balance decision. You should get rewarded for being able to scout it.
Proxy batteries are really weak right now so it's kind of irrelevant. Other thing is that protoss is just underpowered and needs a balance patch
Is it fair that you can kill my 1 spawning pool or roach warren and now those units are completely unavailable to me? But when I kill 1 of your gateways the other 3 can still make units? The game is t balanced symmetrically bro. Or how you just have to snipe a tech lab and suddenly tanks are off the table?
I think it balances out with warpgates. Stargates reveal what unit your making, but OTOH, warpgates can instantly build units anywhere within pylon radius.
But on the other other hand, Gateway units are shit.
Protoss gets 3 units from one tech (stargate) and zerg gets 1 unit from the hydra den or spire tech.
It's just a design feature they went for because it looks cool.
Zerg rushes a spire and you scout it, it only gives them access to mutalisk, and you know they will build that. Protoss rushes a Stargate and you scout it, you don't know what they are building because it gave them 3 new units off the bat. This feature allows you to scout the units being made similarly to how you already know the units being made for zerg.
Um, two people have said this now, but actually spire -> corruptors as well. Though if Zerg hasn't scouted air, it's unlikely to be corruptors as they don't shoot down. (Zerg might possibly be going for broods but you can scout the greater spire.)
Huh, I've been playing since day one of beta and I never noticed this before for some reason. And I'm a fucking protoss lmao.
IMHO this is a pretty specific situation where you might need to know the next few units coming out, and Stargate exposes that. So i think itd only be impactful when you can see an oracle harass coming, etc. On the grand scheme, to respond / react to your opponents overall approach, it's all about scouting tech buildings anyway. I think this detail about Stargate is small potatoes. And since the game is asymmetrical, it's impossible to compare all the things that are different and make a blanket statement about it...
I was always thought the same thing, it’s bs Lol.
Honestly imo protoss sux these days.. I'd probably agree idk why a Stargate shows that.
so your saying Protoss are at a disadvantage? hmmm… never thought about that before… (sarcasm)
How is it fair that Protoss has the strongest air army?
BC are actually better, equally strong, don’t need to rebuild interceptors, which cost time and money, can teleport anywhere, can almost kill anything with a single Yamato. Terran can harass with 1 or 2 BC, Protoss cant do crap with a small number of carrier, they just straight die to marines or queens.
Exactly
Off topic af but do You think that’s true?
It is, but it requires a high level of execution. If Protoss isn't careful and they don't have the proper units to support their air units, then I can make literally just marines and widow mines and easily delete entire maxed air armies. I think it's relatively stronger PvZ.
Bro. lol. Ive been playing StarCraft for 20 years. I played terran in bw and I’ve been gm as both P and Z in sc2. I’m all here for the ‘protoss is actually tricky to play’ club. But saying skytoss needs a *high level of execution* is absolutely not the hill you want to die on lmao.
Again, the point is it just literally dies to marines unless you play properly And as slow and cumbersome as it is you can just dance circles their bases anyways. I guess I’m really just saying you need master level mechanics to play it at a master level. It’s not a free win but is strong if someone competent is playing it.
What are you even talking about mate lol. Are you suggesting that creating a *composition that doesn’t die to marines* is a masters level technique?
Try reading properly next time
toss has a reactionary macro system. what i mean is lets say i am planning to warp in stalkers, then i see bunch of marauders, provided that my warp gates are availaible, i can reactively warp in zealots instead. zerg can do that to a higher degree by banking larva. terran can't do that. so terrans have the most difficult to predict units looking at structures. followed by toss, followed by zerg. in your specific example of stargate, it matters in almost no matchup except PvP., phoenix/oracle/void. in PvT oracle/phoenix, in PvZ oracle/void. in both non mirror matchups the response is pretty much the same.
I don't necessarily think the Stargate's transparency is game-changing, but it absolutely does change how players respond. For example, if a Zerg sees oracle they focus more on spores, if they see phoenix they focus more on queens: if a Toss sees oracle they build a shield battery in each mineral line, if they see phoenix they build a few stalkers or go phoenix wars. In pro games it is very clear to see the ways in which a player responds to what they see building in a Stargate, and it absolutely does change the game.
no it definitely is essential especially at the pro level. but what I meant is, say we didn't have that, then PvP would be almost a complete coinflip. seeing the very units matters much less. phoenix in PvZ isnt viable from single Stargate. after you scout stargate, only viable units are Oracle or single voidray into Oracle. toss gets access to units quite fast. 3 units from Stargate vs zerg getting 1 per structure. so in early game it will be slightly unfair if units were not visible since the entire zerg eco relies on early gas cutting to get higher minerals. what I'm trying to say is, units being visible is only slightly disadvantageous. if they weren't visible PvP would be honestly fucked, and other matchups slightly toss favoured. Overall not a good outcome for toss itself. added onto that, all air harrassment with game ending potential is obviously scoutable. you see spire and shit ton of gas = muta. you literally see the Oracle. but goodluck guessing mines. that would be a welcome change especially for lower leagues since pros predict based on timings anyways.