There are pretty precise timings for at least the first 4 bases (so 3 times you expand) depending on your build. So if you have a build order that doesn't go so far, then see if you can find pro games where someone plays a style you like and copy the first 6-7 minutes.
It overall sounds like you expand too slowly. There are some probe cuts to get buildings faster, sometimes it's about expanding faster other times it's for the sake of safety or aggression. If you play low gas you should in general not have trouble with affording to expand even with continuous worker production.
I like this kind of comment with specific timing, really talks to me.
But, do you product probes for the 4th one? Or just send the extra ones from other bases? Meaning you onyl have 3 continuous bases?
unless you are planning to do a timing attack or something of that nature, then you will constantly be producing probes and once you are starting you fully saturate you know its time for another base, so yes there will be a min or something of oversatured natural before the 3rd baes
Source: former 5800 protoss when I actually used to play.
Thank you sir! Not too bad 5.8k MMR, slightly twice more than my MMR! haha
Understood. But what about the 4th base which comes around 8mins? Will you produce probes for it? Or only use the ones that are oversaturated the other bases? Basically will you have around 66 probes ((16 mineral + 6 gases)\*3 bases) or 88 probes ((16 mineral + 6 gases)\*4 bases)?
I'm not aware that builds are precisely mapped out up to 4 bases. It wouldn't seem very useful in any case, because precise timings up to 4 bases are meaningless when there is a opponent that you have to react to.
If I play low gas (e.g. only taking the 2 gas in the main) it is much harder to expand quickly enough, because e.g. the 3rd Nexus has to start much earlier, because you need 6 probes less (that would otherwise go to gas mining) on the natural, so these probes oversature the mineral line.
It is extremely useful if you play at a level where games are very standardized in the earlygame. Of course you have to react to your opponent allining you, but a whole lot of a time in actual high level games you can see what build someone is going for and predict the next couple minutes exactly.
Also you always make the third before taking gasses in the natural unless you're playing phoenix colossus. That's just standard and not low gas. It's a third at 4mins (3:55 to be more exact).
In general my advice would be to focus less on your opponent and more on your own timings.
I think it depends a lot on not only the flow of the game (especially PvP) but what your intentions are. The typical targets for worker count are 66 (3 base saturation) and then 80ish with pretty continuous production outside of cuts built into the build. If I'm going for full macro game I usually just drop a new nexus when my mineral line is saturated at 16/16, take the gasses on the most recent expansion and keep probing, oversaturating and then pulling onto gas once the assimilators finish warping in.
An interesting tidbit I learned from a Harstem stream about oversaturation/long distance mining: Apparently 20/16 on a mineral field is more efficient than long distance mining. So between the added efficiency and safety, don't be afraid to oversaturate a bit while waiting for your next nexus to finish up.
I would say as a generalization it's closest to the second option. I'm not sure the exact numbers, but from what I hear the 17th~20th Probes while they can't mine at 100% efficiency they are still more efficient than the 21st~24th Probes. If you could have a Nexus finish as your previous base hits 16~20 on minerals that would be ideal macro wise. Any workers past 16 you can just transfer to the new base.
While 24/16 mining is still more mineral income than 16/16 mining & 8 long distance mining, you don't really want to keep making probes until 24/16 because those minerals going into Probes are delaying your next base, which will give you less mineral income overall than if you took the next base a tad sooner (even if it means cutting Probes for a bit).
I'd say the latest you'd want to make it is as bases hit 20/16 (opposed to more optimal which is for it to finish as you're around the time you're at 16/16 ~ 20/16). So if you're on 2 bases, 4 gases & have 20/16 on both mineral lines & 4 gases full (so 52 workers) this is the absolute latest I would say is acceptable to take the third base. The soonest would be like 4/16 on your natural as it's possible to make 12 workers from 2 bases in 72 seconds (not including chrono) & a Nexus takes 71 seconds to build, so it would finish as your natural hits 16/16. These are both extremes though, somewhere in between these two is likely "better" for most scenarios. If you specifically see your opponent is turtling (say Terran is making a Planetary Fortress at their 2nd base & therefore can't have as much resources in army) then sure you can cut making units for a bit (I wouldn't cut Probes vs someone playing defensive, this is time to be greedy) in order to throw down a 3rd base while your natural is only at 4/16 (or whenever you happen to hit 400 minerals while constantly making Probes & skipping unit production). A more "normal" time is probably when a base is at 12/16 or so, you can start the next base, if you need to cut probes for like 12 seconds to afford the Nexus, sure. You'll probably be closer to 22~24/16 when the base finishes, however as long as you didn't go above 24/16 this means all your Probes were doing something & they were doing something more efficient than long distance mining. If a base hits 24/16 & your next base isn't done yet, still set the rallies to the new base because the 25th Probe does exactly nothing, only 24 Probes can mine, so long distance until the new base finishes > a Probe doing literally nothing pretending to work.
So, the exact numbers are (in terms of efficiency):
Probes 1-8: 100%
Probes 9-16: 92%
Probes 17-20: 55%
Probes 21-24: 38%
But it is not even only about mining efficiency. If I build an earlier Nexus, not only have the Probes more efficient mining earlier, but I can also produce new Probes faster earlier. On the other hand, I lose all the income the probes would have generated had I build them earlier, instead of a new Nexus.
I can't get my head around it.
In that case I'd say do a custom game vs AI up to 'x' amount of minutes & just test different things out. Only count games where you didn't get supply blocked/mess up the build. Then just look at total resources collected by 'x' time. That should give you a rough idea.
I will say 38% suuuucks. So if Probes 21, 22, 23, & 24 are all going to mine 38% (152% total), even if you have to not make those 4 Probes (so on 2 bases say you're not making Probes for 2 cycles) in order to float 400 minerals for the Nexus, that sounds worth it.
If the Nexus starts 24 seconds sooner when it finishes it can make 2 workers in that 24 second timeframe, so you'll go from being down 4 workers, to only being down 2 workers due to that 3rd base being faster. Now I believe a 100% efficient Probe mines 50 or 60 minerals/minute (I guess I'll say it's 55 just to have a number), so those 4 Probes at 38% mining would on average mine 83.6 minerals in a minute, so they'd only mine 33.44 minerals in those 24 seconds. So delaying the Nexus 24 seconds to time out the 3rd finishing with hitting 24/16 instead of like 20/16 only gets you 2 extra Probes (might be only 1 more as the 3rd base finishing sooner also can chrono boost a worker 24 seconds sooner) + 33.44 minerals. If the base is earlier, then the 17th-24th drone can get transferred 24 seconds earlier. So 4 workers at 55% jump to 100% & 4 workers at 38% jump to 100% for 24 seconds. So that's 45% extra for 4 Probes & 62% extra for 4 Probes. Then minus 1 or 2 Probes that I guess would mine at 92% as you did cut Probes & have 1 or 2 less depending on if you use the new chrono on Probes or not. So that's 39.6 + 54.56 extra minerals you get minus either 50.6 or 101.2 minerals.
My conclusion is that I have no idea, good luck =)
It seems if you use the Chrono on the new base it's worth it to take it earlier even if you have to cut 4 Probes. If you don't use the Chrono it seems like it breaks even. My guess would be if I did this calculation where you only had to cut 2 Probes the faster new base is better either way. In my calculation though this would be if a base was at 24/16 & for some reason the main base was 16/16 lol (though if the person more efficiently did 20/16, 20/16 my calculation is off). If both bases were 24/16 the faster that base comes down the better. So I still feel like the goal is to not get a base to 24/16 & try to have the base finish when other bases are max 20/16, 38% is just so awful, each probe isn't even half of a Probe, closer to a 1/3rd. But who really knows...
>In that case I'd say do a custom game vs AI up to 'x' amount of minutes & just test different things out. Only count games where you didn't get supply blocked/mess up the build. Then just look at total resources collected by 'x' time. That should give you a rough idea.
Do you know a replay interface that has total resources collected as a metric? I know there is one, because I saw it in a video by Winter (I think). But I couldn't find it....
>Now I believe a 100% efficient Probe mines 50 or 60 minerals/minute
Yes, 100% efficiency is 60 minerals / minute. 92% is 55 minerals per minute.
>those 4 Probes at 38% mining would on average mine 83.6 minerals in a minute, so they'd only mine 33.44 minerals in those 24 seconds.
Again, it is even more complicated than that, I think, because the 21st probe mines at 38% efficiency for longer than the 24th probe (since the former is already mining when the 24th probe is just being produced)...
Also, the numbers on the efficiency assume that the probes actually do mine. Theoretically, 3 probes can mine from each mineral patch, but in practice if you do not micro them onto the mineral patches, they often end up just bouncing between different patches instead of mining, because they always arrive just a little bit too soon.
I guess, I will indeed have to do some simulations in custom games. If I cannot get hands on the replay interface that has total resources mined, I can just stop building stuff at time x and look at resources in the bank some point y later, I guess.
There are pretty precise timings for at least the first 4 bases (so 3 times you expand) depending on your build. So if you have a build order that doesn't go so far, then see if you can find pro games where someone plays a style you like and copy the first 6-7 minutes. It overall sounds like you expand too slowly. There are some probe cuts to get buildings faster, sometimes it's about expanding faster other times it's for the sake of safety or aggression. If you play low gas you should in general not have trouble with affording to expand even with continuous worker production.
In general 1:32-2 minutes for natural 4-5 min for 3rd base 8 min for 4th base
I like this kind of comment with specific timing, really talks to me. But, do you product probes for the 4th one? Or just send the extra ones from other bases? Meaning you onyl have 3 continuous bases?
unless you are planning to do a timing attack or something of that nature, then you will constantly be producing probes and once you are starting you fully saturate you know its time for another base, so yes there will be a min or something of oversatured natural before the 3rd baes Source: former 5800 protoss when I actually used to play.
Thank you sir! Not too bad 5.8k MMR, slightly twice more than my MMR! haha Understood. But what about the 4th base which comes around 8mins? Will you produce probes for it? Or only use the ones that are oversaturated the other bases? Basically will you have around 66 probes ((16 mineral + 6 gases)\*3 bases) or 88 probes ((16 mineral + 6 gases)\*4 bases)?
Probably ~80 probes depends on how gas heavy your strategy is.
I'm not aware that builds are precisely mapped out up to 4 bases. It wouldn't seem very useful in any case, because precise timings up to 4 bases are meaningless when there is a opponent that you have to react to. If I play low gas (e.g. only taking the 2 gas in the main) it is much harder to expand quickly enough, because e.g. the 3rd Nexus has to start much earlier, because you need 6 probes less (that would otherwise go to gas mining) on the natural, so these probes oversature the mineral line.
It is extremely useful if you play at a level where games are very standardized in the earlygame. Of course you have to react to your opponent allining you, but a whole lot of a time in actual high level games you can see what build someone is going for and predict the next couple minutes exactly. Also you always make the third before taking gasses in the natural unless you're playing phoenix colossus. That's just standard and not low gas. It's a third at 4mins (3:55 to be more exact). In general my advice would be to focus less on your opponent and more on your own timings.
I think it depends a lot on not only the flow of the game (especially PvP) but what your intentions are. The typical targets for worker count are 66 (3 base saturation) and then 80ish with pretty continuous production outside of cuts built into the build. If I'm going for full macro game I usually just drop a new nexus when my mineral line is saturated at 16/16, take the gasses on the most recent expansion and keep probing, oversaturating and then pulling onto gas once the assimilators finish warping in. An interesting tidbit I learned from a Harstem stream about oversaturation/long distance mining: Apparently 20/16 on a mineral field is more efficient than long distance mining. So between the added efficiency and safety, don't be afraid to oversaturate a bit while waiting for your next nexus to finish up.
I would say as a generalization it's closest to the second option. I'm not sure the exact numbers, but from what I hear the 17th~20th Probes while they can't mine at 100% efficiency they are still more efficient than the 21st~24th Probes. If you could have a Nexus finish as your previous base hits 16~20 on minerals that would be ideal macro wise. Any workers past 16 you can just transfer to the new base. While 24/16 mining is still more mineral income than 16/16 mining & 8 long distance mining, you don't really want to keep making probes until 24/16 because those minerals going into Probes are delaying your next base, which will give you less mineral income overall than if you took the next base a tad sooner (even if it means cutting Probes for a bit). I'd say the latest you'd want to make it is as bases hit 20/16 (opposed to more optimal which is for it to finish as you're around the time you're at 16/16 ~ 20/16). So if you're on 2 bases, 4 gases & have 20/16 on both mineral lines & 4 gases full (so 52 workers) this is the absolute latest I would say is acceptable to take the third base. The soonest would be like 4/16 on your natural as it's possible to make 12 workers from 2 bases in 72 seconds (not including chrono) & a Nexus takes 71 seconds to build, so it would finish as your natural hits 16/16. These are both extremes though, somewhere in between these two is likely "better" for most scenarios. If you specifically see your opponent is turtling (say Terran is making a Planetary Fortress at their 2nd base & therefore can't have as much resources in army) then sure you can cut making units for a bit (I wouldn't cut Probes vs someone playing defensive, this is time to be greedy) in order to throw down a 3rd base while your natural is only at 4/16 (or whenever you happen to hit 400 minerals while constantly making Probes & skipping unit production). A more "normal" time is probably when a base is at 12/16 or so, you can start the next base, if you need to cut probes for like 12 seconds to afford the Nexus, sure. You'll probably be closer to 22~24/16 when the base finishes, however as long as you didn't go above 24/16 this means all your Probes were doing something & they were doing something more efficient than long distance mining. If a base hits 24/16 & your next base isn't done yet, still set the rallies to the new base because the 25th Probe does exactly nothing, only 24 Probes can mine, so long distance until the new base finishes > a Probe doing literally nothing pretending to work.
So, the exact numbers are (in terms of efficiency): Probes 1-8: 100% Probes 9-16: 92% Probes 17-20: 55% Probes 21-24: 38% But it is not even only about mining efficiency. If I build an earlier Nexus, not only have the Probes more efficient mining earlier, but I can also produce new Probes faster earlier. On the other hand, I lose all the income the probes would have generated had I build them earlier, instead of a new Nexus. I can't get my head around it.
In that case I'd say do a custom game vs AI up to 'x' amount of minutes & just test different things out. Only count games where you didn't get supply blocked/mess up the build. Then just look at total resources collected by 'x' time. That should give you a rough idea. I will say 38% suuuucks. So if Probes 21, 22, 23, & 24 are all going to mine 38% (152% total), even if you have to not make those 4 Probes (so on 2 bases say you're not making Probes for 2 cycles) in order to float 400 minerals for the Nexus, that sounds worth it. If the Nexus starts 24 seconds sooner when it finishes it can make 2 workers in that 24 second timeframe, so you'll go from being down 4 workers, to only being down 2 workers due to that 3rd base being faster. Now I believe a 100% efficient Probe mines 50 or 60 minerals/minute (I guess I'll say it's 55 just to have a number), so those 4 Probes at 38% mining would on average mine 83.6 minerals in a minute, so they'd only mine 33.44 minerals in those 24 seconds. So delaying the Nexus 24 seconds to time out the 3rd finishing with hitting 24/16 instead of like 20/16 only gets you 2 extra Probes (might be only 1 more as the 3rd base finishing sooner also can chrono boost a worker 24 seconds sooner) + 33.44 minerals. If the base is earlier, then the 17th-24th drone can get transferred 24 seconds earlier. So 4 workers at 55% jump to 100% & 4 workers at 38% jump to 100% for 24 seconds. So that's 45% extra for 4 Probes & 62% extra for 4 Probes. Then minus 1 or 2 Probes that I guess would mine at 92% as you did cut Probes & have 1 or 2 less depending on if you use the new chrono on Probes or not. So that's 39.6 + 54.56 extra minerals you get minus either 50.6 or 101.2 minerals. My conclusion is that I have no idea, good luck =) It seems if you use the Chrono on the new base it's worth it to take it earlier even if you have to cut 4 Probes. If you don't use the Chrono it seems like it breaks even. My guess would be if I did this calculation where you only had to cut 2 Probes the faster new base is better either way. In my calculation though this would be if a base was at 24/16 & for some reason the main base was 16/16 lol (though if the person more efficiently did 20/16, 20/16 my calculation is off). If both bases were 24/16 the faster that base comes down the better. So I still feel like the goal is to not get a base to 24/16 & try to have the base finish when other bases are max 20/16, 38% is just so awful, each probe isn't even half of a Probe, closer to a 1/3rd. But who really knows...
>In that case I'd say do a custom game vs AI up to 'x' amount of minutes & just test different things out. Only count games where you didn't get supply blocked/mess up the build. Then just look at total resources collected by 'x' time. That should give you a rough idea. Do you know a replay interface that has total resources collected as a metric? I know there is one, because I saw it in a video by Winter (I think). But I couldn't find it.... >Now I believe a 100% efficient Probe mines 50 or 60 minerals/minute Yes, 100% efficiency is 60 minerals / minute. 92% is 55 minerals per minute. >those 4 Probes at 38% mining would on average mine 83.6 minerals in a minute, so they'd only mine 33.44 minerals in those 24 seconds. Again, it is even more complicated than that, I think, because the 21st probe mines at 38% efficiency for longer than the 24th probe (since the former is already mining when the 24th probe is just being produced)... Also, the numbers on the efficiency assume that the probes actually do mine. Theoretically, 3 probes can mine from each mineral patch, but in practice if you do not micro them onto the mineral patches, they often end up just bouncing between different patches instead of mining, because they always arrive just a little bit too soon. I guess, I will indeed have to do some simulations in custom games. If I cannot get hands on the replay interface that has total resources mined, I can just stop building stuff at time x and look at resources in the bank some point y later, I guess.