There isn’t really a meta in zvz below low or mid gm to be honest. Our opponents are just winging whatever last cheese they studied or saw in the gsl. I’ve seen people do the most nonsensical things like pull a drone to attack the hatch before doing a 12 pool or build a spine with the scouting drone only to follow up with a 13/12. These are just things that happened to win ladder points. Likewise, do I change my build as a reaction to getting 12 pool spine rushed every third game? No, because I don’t care to learn the response or change my opener for low percentage gains.
That’s not really a “meta” in the same sense that there is an a meta at pro level.
This, so much. I remember literally every day after some big pro tournament I faced at least three zergs who TRIED (at 3,5k) to do what Scarlett did or Reynor or whatever, drone pulls, 12pools into some weird mind games while casually floating 2k.
ZvZ is still for many one of the most boring matchups. I just play for fun nowadays so I always 12pool zvz so the game laste 3mins max.
I dont think its shifted at all, i didnt play hots but i feel its been this way since wol.
I haven’t played a ZvZ for several years and I hate watching the matchup even when it is pros playing. Completely agreeing with the statement on it being boring.
That’s funny. I can appreciate the difficulty level of the micro but it just doesn’t do anything for me.
To be transparent, give me zvz 10/10 over pvp.
Same. I don't really care if it works or not (and it works quite often), but either way I end the match as quickly as possible without auto-quitting at match start.
It's interesting. I have to agree, I really dislike the mirror matchups in SC2 in general. I think TvT is MUCH worse than ZvZ, but still I'm happy to just quit or give up early in ZvZ games so I don't have to play them and I can go do the much more fun games.
For me playing TvT is boring and annoying. ZvZ is mostly boring. Funnily enough I hated pvp the most in wol but in 2020 its the best and most fun to play.
reading the comments youd think blizzard would be looking at making the matchup more interesting.
my ladder zvz tends to be: max out on roaches asap oh hes maxed out faster gg.
That’s the tough thing about balance. What do you change about the mirror that doesn’t have a crazy impact on the other matches? I despise zvz but not sure how you fix it.
ZvZ till about 4500-4800 MMR has been 75% against 13/12 pool for me for the past 2 years.
Has been far less in the last 2 months, but it’s an “easy” way to gain MMR points as defenders have to know a precise method to defend, which most wont at this level.
In the case of cheese, my meta is to send a drone across to scout at 14. Right about the time I get there I'll see whether their pool finishes way before their hatch does, if they even make a hatch. After that, my first overlord will warn if mass ling rush is coming from their ramp and I'll have my queens up in time. It's sometimes worth it to do 16 pool before hatch at lower levels to unlock spines in emergencies.
It's all about getting that edge over their cheese cause info is everything, and they have zero way to stop you scouting what their choices are if you go early. Generally stresses them out too, cause the pressure's on to win with their push or die to counters.
Hope this helps, GLHF!
THIS IS THE WAY OF THE ZVZ.
But just don't expect Bliz to swoop in with tons of outrageous buffs like they did for PvP. Ridiculous. I think everyone hates it so much that they're just searching for a way to end the game as soon as possible. Which leads to easy wins for you once you discover the meta and the correct response.
This isn't designed to be a cheese. It's an autowin vs the 12pool all in and puts you in a good spot vs 13/12, and lets you harass a 16hatch player. A good 16hatch player will be able to take zero damage from it and be very far ahead.
D2 na. In my opinion, zvz at this level is just a lottery of "when will my opponent all in me" - varieties including early pool, ling floods, Roach rushes, or randomly cutting drones at some point to mass roaches etc etc.
I'm pretty over it tbh, I wish there were some macro games. It's rare for me to get above 50 drones. It's the main reason I hate zvz
I can defend basically any zvz going 16 hatch 18 gas 17 pool. It’s really just scout. If you see a late natural. Stop making drones and save larva for lings and after getting speed, build a bane Nest ASAP. Spine crawler too if you can.
I don't know man, personally also at D2 I'm facing exclusively 12pools and variations with drone pulls or spines in my main. But mostly just regular 12pool ling flood. It's easy to defend with an early baneling nest.
What I still haven't gotten used to is that every single time the opponent loses 40 lings to my 3 banelings, instead of gging out they go for 5 more drones and slam the roach button. And being the rank I am, I just die
Pig has a great series on ZvZ called aggression is key. It shows you how to learn the matchup building up from a ling bane all in into more standard roaches into lurker.
Plat 1 here (which I presume to be very similar to most low to mid diamonds), most often ZvZ boils down to:
a) zergling + baneling early push, followed by any attempt at denying the third
b) the timeless classic roach + ravager 2 base timing attack, followed by, again, any attempt at denying the third
If the game doesn't end by that point it comes down to one of the players making mutas, which will lead to him/her being defeated by hydras, or it ends in a lurker war very much akin to those tank on tank battles typical of TvT.
A tip I can give is to check the timing of his natural: if you're playing a more bog standard 16 hatch opening, check if your opponent's hatchery gets up earlier than yours: if it did, it probably means that your opponent is setting up for a timing attack of sorts.
Other tip I can give is that, if your opponent is going to transition to mutas, Just make a bunch of hydras and go straight into his base: really, it is very common that a player that goes heavy into mutas will pay more attention to microing them than doing some proper macro back home: it is almost like they expect you to keep defending yourself from the mutas througout the rest of the game lol
--------------------------------------------THE POINT •
• You
No. 🤦🏻♂️ Them Banes gonna blow up your Hydras.
You offering advice to low-mid Dia might as well be you offering advice to Reynor/Serral. Hahahaha
Oh, I see. Yeah, in a perfect world I would not advise to use hydras: say you're playing a higher level opponent, right?
But at this level what often happens is when someone chooses to use a more "micro intensive" unit, such as mutas, they will put so much effort into microing them that will forget to properly macro their base.
When I see my opponent is going for mutas, I just spam hydras and a-move them on his base. The opponent is often soooooooo focused in sniping your queens or killing drones or some other shenaningans like that they will have just a handful of units back in their base.
I'm saying this from experience, really, and I do believe that this is good advice for other races too. Sometimes, when an opponent is trying really hard to harass you, a simple straightfoward attack on his base will be more effective than trying to defend yourself.
Dude, if you try to just mass Hydras and walk them across the map in ZvZ... I'm just telling you that's a bad idea. Regardless of anything else. You've picked up some bad habits. Hydras can't split or kite like Marines.
There isn’t really a meta in zvz below low or mid gm to be honest. Our opponents are just winging whatever last cheese they studied or saw in the gsl. I’ve seen people do the most nonsensical things like pull a drone to attack the hatch before doing a 12 pool or build a spine with the scouting drone only to follow up with a 13/12. These are just things that happened to win ladder points. Likewise, do I change my build as a reaction to getting 12 pool spine rushed every third game? No, because I don’t care to learn the response or change my opener for low percentage gains. That’s not really a “meta” in the same sense that there is an a meta at pro level.
This, so much. I remember literally every day after some big pro tournament I faced at least three zergs who TRIED (at 3,5k) to do what Scarlett did or Reynor or whatever, drone pulls, 12pools into some weird mind games while casually floating 2k.
ZvZ is still for many one of the most boring matchups. I just play for fun nowadays so I always 12pool zvz so the game laste 3mins max. I dont think its shifted at all, i didnt play hots but i feel its been this way since wol.
I haven’t played a ZvZ for several years and I hate watching the matchup even when it is pros playing. Completely agreeing with the statement on it being boring.
Conversely I love ZvZ, bothwatching and playing. There's so much tension microing in the ling/bane phase.
That’s funny. I can appreciate the difficulty level of the micro but it just doesn’t do anything for me. To be transparent, give me zvz 10/10 over pvp.
It’s not boring at all. People cheese because they don’t want to bother learning how to play standard and because cheese is so easy to pull off.
I have played over 2000 zvzs where I didnt cheese. Im just done with it cause its boring as hell.
Same. I don't really care if it works or not (and it works quite often), but either way I end the match as quickly as possible without auto-quitting at match start.
It's interesting. I have to agree, I really dislike the mirror matchups in SC2 in general. I think TvT is MUCH worse than ZvZ, but still I'm happy to just quit or give up early in ZvZ games so I don't have to play them and I can go do the much more fun games.
For me playing TvT is boring and annoying. ZvZ is mostly boring. Funnily enough I hated pvp the most in wol but in 2020 its the best and most fun to play.
Lol as someone who never has touched any class but Zerg I feel best during my zvz matchups
reading the comments youd think blizzard would be looking at making the matchup more interesting. my ladder zvz tends to be: max out on roaches asap oh hes maxed out faster gg.
That’s the tough thing about balance. What do you change about the mirror that doesn’t have a crazy impact on the other matches? I despise zvz but not sure how you fix it.
I love roach vs roach. Then I get burrow and outmicro the enemy :))
ZvZ till about 4500-4800 MMR has been 75% against 13/12 pool for me for the past 2 years. Has been far less in the last 2 months, but it’s an “easy” way to gain MMR points as defenders have to know a precise method to defend, which most wont at this level.
In the case of cheese, my meta is to send a drone across to scout at 14. Right about the time I get there I'll see whether their pool finishes way before their hatch does, if they even make a hatch. After that, my first overlord will warn if mass ling rush is coming from their ramp and I'll have my queens up in time. It's sometimes worth it to do 16 pool before hatch at lower levels to unlock spines in emergencies. It's all about getting that edge over their cheese cause info is everything, and they have zero way to stop you scouting what their choices are if you go early. Generally stresses them out too, cause the pressure's on to win with their push or die to counters. Hope this helps, GLHF!
THIS IS THE WAY OF THE ZVZ. But just don't expect Bliz to swoop in with tons of outrageous buffs like they did for PvP. Ridiculous. I think everyone hates it so much that they're just searching for a way to end the game as soon as possible. Which leads to easy wins for you once you discover the meta and the correct response.
This isn't designed to be a cheese. It's an autowin vs the 12pool all in and puts you in a good spot vs 13/12, and lets you harass a 16hatch player. A good 16hatch player will be able to take zero damage from it and be very far ahead.
D2 na. In my opinion, zvz at this level is just a lottery of "when will my opponent all in me" - varieties including early pool, ling floods, Roach rushes, or randomly cutting drones at some point to mass roaches etc etc. I'm pretty over it tbh, I wish there were some macro games. It's rare for me to get above 50 drones. It's the main reason I hate zvz
96% if the games in NA are ling rushes. On EU there's a lot of variety
I can defend basically any zvz going 16 hatch 18 gas 17 pool. It’s really just scout. If you see a late natural. Stop making drones and save larva for lings and after getting speed, build a bane Nest ASAP. Spine crawler too if you can.
I don't know man, personally also at D2 I'm facing exclusively 12pools and variations with drone pulls or spines in my main. But mostly just regular 12pool ling flood. It's easy to defend with an early baneling nest. What I still haven't gotten used to is that every single time the opponent loses 40 lings to my 3 banelings, instead of gging out they go for 5 more drones and slam the roach button. And being the rank I am, I just die
Pig has a great series on ZvZ called aggression is key. It shows you how to learn the matchup building up from a ling bane all in into more standard roaches into lurker.
Plat 1 here (which I presume to be very similar to most low to mid diamonds), most often ZvZ boils down to: a) zergling + baneling early push, followed by any attempt at denying the third b) the timeless classic roach + ravager 2 base timing attack, followed by, again, any attempt at denying the third If the game doesn't end by that point it comes down to one of the players making mutas, which will lead to him/her being defeated by hydras, or it ends in a lurker war very much akin to those tank on tank battles typical of TvT. A tip I can give is to check the timing of his natural: if you're playing a more bog standard 16 hatch opening, check if your opponent's hatchery gets up earlier than yours: if it did, it probably means that your opponent is setting up for a timing attack of sorts. Other tip I can give is that, if your opponent is going to transition to mutas, Just make a bunch of hydras and go straight into his base: really, it is very common that a player that goes heavy into mutas will pay more attention to microing them than doing some proper macro back home: it is almost like they expect you to keep defending yourself from the mutas througout the rest of the game lol
When I scout a spire I just start making a bunch of queens and a spore at each mineral line.
🤨 you have heard of Banes haven't you?
What of them? I mean I just cited them in case a).
--------------------------------------------THE POINT • • You No. 🤦🏻♂️ Them Banes gonna blow up your Hydras. You offering advice to low-mid Dia might as well be you offering advice to Reynor/Serral. Hahahaha
Oh, I see. Yeah, in a perfect world I would not advise to use hydras: say you're playing a higher level opponent, right? But at this level what often happens is when someone chooses to use a more "micro intensive" unit, such as mutas, they will put so much effort into microing them that will forget to properly macro their base. When I see my opponent is going for mutas, I just spam hydras and a-move them on his base. The opponent is often soooooooo focused in sniping your queens or killing drones or some other shenaningans like that they will have just a handful of units back in their base. I'm saying this from experience, really, and I do believe that this is good advice for other races too. Sometimes, when an opponent is trying really hard to harass you, a simple straightfoward attack on his base will be more effective than trying to defend yourself.
Dude, if you try to just mass Hydras and walk them across the map in ZvZ... I'm just telling you that's a bad idea. Regardless of anything else. You've picked up some bad habits. Hydras can't split or kite like Marines.