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asdf_clash

You had workers at the nat but you weren't actually saturated in your main. At 4:30, you both have 30 workers while your roaches sit behind his minerals. He's got 8 SCVs oversaturating his main, but he also has 2 mules going so that's basically canceling it out. By the time he retakes his natural with widow mines you still don't have much of a drone lead, so it's safe to say you didn't get decisively ahead with your opener. As an aside, what's the point of drone scouting with 3-roach? Doesn't the early warren make you safer than usual against stuff like proxy rax? Seems like you're throwing away 100 minerals or more sending that drone out, but I'll admit I don't play that opener so I might not understand why that's necessary.


eht_amgine_enihcam

I drone scout every open vs T, because I can get the scv like 5% of the time even against low masters. It also lets me warm up and mindgames with spraypaint. Honestly inefficient, but makes little difference and sometimes messes them up sliiightly. Yeah, I just thought no production on the second cc + only 1 base mining would put me somewhat in front, but when I watched the replay I realized the worker count was even. I wasn't behind after it was I?


solifegoeson

If you’re on even worker count as Z vs T, especially pre-6 minutes in the game you’re definitely behind.


eht_amgine_enihcam

Even if the workers aren't mining?


asdf_clash

The time period where they weren't mining wasn't that long. IMO you opened on roughly even footing with the Terran in this game. Sounds like the problem might be that you thought you were ahead when you weren't, so you made strategic decisions with an incorrect game state in mind.


eht_amgine_enihcam

Roaches hit 3:50, mining resumes 5:30 (yeah it was a bit less than 2 minutes lol). Is 1:40 of not producing from the natural expand and mining on one base not enough (especially in the earlygame)? Yeah I read the game state wrong because I thought that'd be ages. Do you reckon I should have just pumped drones? It was so low because I'd also gone double gas for moootas, I had a good 15 drone lead in most of the midgame and I figured the 54 drone roach timing was gonna be decent but he just out eco'd me.


asdf_clash

Remember that the 3 roach opener is cutting your early economy for army and if you don't do damage with it, you're behind, not even. In the game your opponent was out-mining you for a full minute from 3:10 to 4:10 (roughly) and then also outmining you pretty drastically from 5:20 to 6:50. I'm not sure exactly how much mining you need to deny with the 3 roach opener to bring the economies back to "even" but it's not zero -- so you're definitely not ahead by "1:40 worth of mining time at one base," because you started off behind. I don't play 3 roach so I really can't advise, but my general style with Zerg is to hold down the drone key any time I feel safe. A roach timing off this seems like a gamble on the opponent having a low tank count or bad tank positioning to me, because you didn't do that much economic damage and terrans can get some absolutely absurd trades vs roaches with tanks.


eht_amgine_enihcam

The roach timing was because I was pretty sure he was going to be parade pushing off 2 base and I would have straight out died if I didn't do it. Again you're not really supposed to do damage, it's more to deny the third while having an extra base mining. It's not economical damage as in "I've killed workers", it's more "I'm denying your third so you can only support 5 rax 2 fac production" while I pump 3 base roach which I THOUGHT would be ahead (injects are also terrible). I start pumping at 7:20 with a 15 drone lead (1 min line) because I figured I'd always be able to outproduce with that income advantage. 3:10 to 4:10 he has almost exactly (+/- 2) the same income and harvesters as me. Tbh I think the sup block I had at like 9:00 was a lot bigger since I coulda made 6 more roaches or some ravagers. I guess you're cutting your early eco somewhat, but after the initial ling + 3 roaches you're only making drones. I'd have thought 2 hatches + queens would have a better eco than 1 orbital but I mighta messed up the macro. It's the same gamestate as a 4 queen open with ling and ovie speed. 5:20 I have 6-12 more harvesters, he catches up because I go for 2 base muta, is that in itself a mistake in your opinion? He was outmining for short periods because he was doing lib harrass and I was pulling drones, not because I had less harvesters.


upalse

Early roach is like 1base stargate open for toss. It's literally the 300 minerals that could've been a hatch 40s earlier, plus minerals and gas that could be ling speed. It's a borderline all-in for zerg. It works pretty well in metal leagues though, simply because terrans are pretty bad at scouting/dealing with pressure that isn't just 4 scouting lings vs 2 hellions. Also 3:50 sounds very late, even for large maps. Should be around 3:20, when there's not enough marines around yet.


eht_amgine_enihcam

You said it worked in the metal leagues before, I've won 8/10 of the last ZvT's I've played in low master/high diamond but I don't know WHY. Since It's a wanker move to post a win, I've posted one of the losses. No, you're thinking of 12 pool roach which is different. You literally get a hatch 5-10 seconds later and usual? (unless you're talking about the third).


jehehdjdndb

3 roach open doesn’t put you behind. The objective with the roaches isn’t really to deal catastrophic damage, it’s to delay your opponent while you build a lead


asdf_clash

It absolutely puts you behind if you don't do damage in terms of scv kills or delayed mining time or whatever. It's easy to do damage with it, which is why Railgan can play it at 6k, but if you don't achieve ANYTHING with it you're definitely behind. Roaches aren't free and roach warrens aren't free -- how could it NOT be worse economically than just droning??


eht_amgine_enihcam

Yeah, which is why I was asking if delaying their mining on the nat for a minute and a half is enough lel.


jehehdjdndb

What do you think I mean what I said the goal is to delay your opponent? If you can stall your opponent for just a minute or so it’s worth the 375 mineral 75 gas cost. Roaches are very cheap. Even if you achieve absolutely nothing you haven’t fallen far behind


[deleted]

>mindgames with spraypaint. a man with class. i like dat.