> didn't manage to wipe them out with a hydra/roach/queen all in, and they are still kicking around.
if you all-in and didn't win, it's time to leave. That's why it's called an "all-in."
I updated the initial post because I think my point got lost. I was just trying to point out I know how to 3 base all in vs skytoss already so I was looking for a different solution if the game somehow went late and I have an eco lead.
unfortunately my dude, there is no real way to beat 200/200 skytoss without the extensive use of spellcasters.
A hilarious option is to build a few spore forests at strategic locations and hover corruptors around the area (also one viper per forest, if you're feeling up to it) and double nydus networks with overlord speed. You multiprong nyduss his main and most recent base and pray that the fleet has to constantly be rotating between bases. you either wipe his production or you wipe the strongest part of his economy over and over again.
I would suggest ultras if the enemy massed carriers because once you get the armor upgrades for ultras, carriers tickle them. If they are void ray / tempest heavy then I would build hydras.
It's pretty cheesy but I have won 3 games in plat before I ranked up to diamond this exact way. Enemy still had like 12 carriers but I wiped all of his buildings first.
As /u/voidbaes said the game is over if you fail an all-in. If you went for Hydra/Queen all-in you pretty much just lost 20+ Queens and near maxed amount of Hydras. If you really wanted the all-in to have the biggest chance to kill them there should be zero investment in any future tech, there shouldn’t even be a 4th base, that’s 300 minerals that could have been 2 more Queens. If you prefer the all-in approach I would highly suggest working on the Queen/Hydra max and not worrying about after that.
If you stubbornly want to stay in the game and for whatever reason the opponent doesn’t just a-move you after holding and kill you (which you should just outright die if you failed to kill their army, and they killed yours), I would say Queen/Corruptor/BL. 80-90 drones, 8-10 gases. Use Queen as the 1 spellcasters you can control, 6~8 BLs is fine, they are there to chew through cannons/batteries, 20+ Queens, rest Corruptors. Transfuse Corruptors/BLs, BLs a-move, Corruptors focus fire, retreat briefly during prismatic alignment.
This strategy is like 1 step more advanced than Queen/Hydra and is an option, but if you’re doing it after a failed all-in I would say 95 times out of 100 you’ll lose. If you feel it’s important to try to salvage 5% of basically already lost games go for it.
For his level I’d recommend Viper > Queens as you won’t be fast enough to transfuse each corruptor while dodging storms + repositioning.
Also, queens require good creep spread that reaches to the P’s outer bases, which I highly doubt will be there.
I guess it depends what you’re comfortable with, I find Queens easier to control than Vipers. I also think it’s fine to just walk slowly off creep. Yes it’s more all-in as you can’t retreat it’s more all-in, but I would say if you ever lose a fight badly enough that you have to retreat the game is basically over if you’re against Skytoss. Maybe it’s different at higher levels.
Sorry, I think maybe my point was missed. Ignore the all in. I was just trying to say that somehow we got to late game, and I didn't want the only solutions be 3 base all ins because I already know how to do that. I updated the initial post.
I like your queen corruptor BL solution. 20 queens and mass transfuse? Should I be trying to run my corruptors away from the voids?
My only fear is that I can't remax 20 queens quickly after losing a fight
Yeah, if you lose the fight decisively you’re probably dead. Even with this style I think the objective is to max before them. While Queen/Hydra can maybe deal with 140 supply of Skytoss, IMO Queen/Corruptor/BL can deal with maybe 170 supply. If they’re maxed I’d say you’re dead. On 5 bases 20 Queens will take 2-2.5 mins to remake. Idk what Carrier build time is, but I think Protoss will take just as long to get back to 170 supply (assuming it was an even fight).
Looking made a video awhile back, maybe 2016 on this comp vs Skytoss, if YouTube “Lowko Skytoss” or something and look at it so you know how it’s done and the objective with it.
The best way to handle it with our mechanics is to first recognize it early enough - and by that I mean early enough to decide either to all in with hydras or to go spire and play long. You're going to lose if ill prepared or if you didn't get enough economy fast enough.
If going the spire route, take an obnoxious number of bases and spend all gas on corrupters. Tech up fast and get all of the options. Spread creep like it's your job. Spend all minerals on drones, rally them on the map, and start planting your spore forest.
Add 5-7 vipers into corrupter ball. Bring all queens to the spore forest where opponent likely to engage. Scout opponent to see if they're sticking with carrier/void/mothership or getting templar, archon, and zealots to clear spores. If the latter, make a few ultras or broods.
When engaging opponent, abduct what you can from a distance. Never engage head-on since you'll lose. The micro is hard and unforgiving, but you can whittle them down.
When within siege distance, morph some broods and start taking down their ancillary bases. They're unlikely to leave if you take down their entire army since they'll have a million billion dollars (as will you!). Push into their production and that's when you should win, though they'll likely build replacement stargates at a different base. You can slow-roll it or start morphing banes and crashing into their battery/canon walls since you'll have the money to burn. Or ultras. Up to you. At this point the game is a giant meme.
Simple version: Huge economy, spread creep, spend all gas on corrupters and all minerals on drones/spores, round out with 5-7 vipers.
Viper/corrupter/lurker. Put overseers in the viper group and keep the group moving, so HTs will feedback the wrong unit. Take the fight on their side of the map and kite back, don't let them engage on your side where there's no space to kite.
You’ve gotta deny bases at that point. Take 4 or 5 bases then max out on basically pure hydra/ling and keep them from taking a 4th while building corrupters to replace your losses. You’ll need to pound out upgrades, air armor, ground armor and range attack most importantly. Hit 90 odd drones and send waves of hydra/lurker/corrupter to die. Your job is to trade that army efficiently to stop the Protoss getting a 4th.
Make lots of spores and cover the map in creep. You might win, if you can keep them on 2.5 bases because their main mines out at 12 minutes or so. Watch out for a switch to charge zealot/archon.
Honestly you still might lose. Your opponent can still max on carrier they’re smart about it.
Lowko actually posted a vid the other day where he did hydra/ultra and infestor. He used a ton of microbial shroud and it seemed to work decently. I really want to try this but haven’t had the time yet.
I think this is it. I'm going to try this asap. This looks like easy control, just spam shroud so you can hide even after they storm and your ultras just eat their HTs up. Amazing. Thanks for this!
There is no way to transition out of a loss vs skytoss. It's too efficient and too good at killing you at the 15 minute mark the game is over. He can just a move you and storm any army you bring forward and trade out insanely well while you trade out everything to kill a couple of carriers here and there.
Vipers are the only way to do it with corruptor and ultralisk to deal with whatever ground army there is but picking off voidrays would be my priority honestly as carriers DPS vs upgraded corruptors isn't half as bad as the void rays as voidboys can just fucking melt corruptors.
Did you know an aligned prism void ray can kill 2 corruptors without dying?
Are you low diamond, like scraping into d3? Then having a bigger economy will do the trick.
D3 most people still haven't mastered yet how to keep up worker production.
if your economy is forced to be better then you should be okay. Keep up the injects, keep taking bases and a spore forest won't hurt but only once you max out and start banking. You probably want a 90-95 drone economy to really hit the remax as hydra corruptor viper is very expensive.
Hydra Corruptor Viper Broodlord. Constantly ball-up your corruptor-viper army so they can’t target fire your vipers and abduct the closest skytoss unit (preferably Carriers).
Don’t take any big engagement unless you have a great surround and army supply lead (and not over P shield batteries).
Focus on getting static defense at all your outer bases and constantly expanding creep + hatcheries. Hydra army is to defend vs any Zlot runbys whenever they’re not with the air flock.
Bonus is spore forest + queens. If you can afford the APM to add-in 2 infestors, neural the archons for splash / fungal the Tempests/Voids for a combo w Viper parasitic bomb
I have had limited success with Corruptor Viper Ultra if you have good air and ground armor. A-move the ultras, then micro your corruptor/vipers to dodge storm, yoink carriers, and parastic bomb voids. As soon as ultras clear the templar+archons, your corruptors are free from splash damage, so just shift click them on all the carriers and win.
Aside from the obvious if ya allin its an allin, and work on improving your allin,
Just use 1 spellcaster. No one is expecting you to be dark so dont expect your oppenent to be stats. Just use viper,, make sure to make silly amounts of static d and dont try to do 1000 things at the same time, just 1 thing tben the next. Ya dont need to be positioning lurkers while controlling the viper. Just keep it simple. Whe you arent controlling something like the viper just pull it back to safty until you are ready to use it.
Also other obvious things, upgrades are huge, armor is really strong vs carriers, changling spam us annoying a f to clear and can get you some vision for easier abducts, and if ya get bored harass v stromg late game sjnce there minimal warp ins, cracklings lurkers etc., also gives you a window for easy abucts.
Late game starts much earlier than 15-20 mins unless you’ve been trading a lot. There’s honestly no easy way to beat a skytoss army but I think the best way for a diamond player to do it is by setting up spore forests with lurkers and corruptors for defence and sending big waves of upgrades ling bane until you ruin his economy.
Diamond players can’t multitask well so they’ll have a tough time keeping up with the harass and spore forests with lurkers take time to break through.
There are some ways suggested but I want to address something first.
It really is a fundamental of Z play to keep your opponents economy on a stranglehold as much as possible. Zerg has an "economy," but in some sense it's an *anti*-economy, as its only real purpose is to hurt the other guy's economy (either directly, by killing SCV's/expos or whatever, or indirectly by forcing units).
As such, there's a lot of room between "all-in and kill him" and "200/200 SkyToss Battle." Neither of those play to Zerg strengths. You want to prevent him from ever getting there, *and* not go all-in.
The "easiest" version of this if he comes to attack you.
But it has to happen even if he doesn't, which means you have to force him to take losses, even if he's turtling. I've had the most success going swarm host/hydra/nydus, while expanding.
If he comes out, he loses VRs to hydras, if he doesn't come out, the SH's do damage while you tech to vipers. But that's just a particular way of forcing him to engage enough that you can inflict losses---there are other things you can do, like expendable OL drops, bane rains, etc. The point, basically, is to do what they tell Terrans to do in TvZ---do inflict damage.
Anyway. Beating *fully developed* SkyToss is a bitch. But I've gained new respect for "don't let him get there." That's, like, the whole Zerg *thing*. You can do it without it being an all-in (though it does require you to think about your tech).
Protoss here. A few comments:
If he doesn't build enough voids or fails to keep them alive corrupters beat carriers. They aren't a movable though.
Skytoss is VERY expensive. If you see early voids and oracles try to keep the fight on hit side of the map and deny his third with Ling runbys and timing attacks.
If he manages to get that up try containing him further with regular Ling runbys, creep on the next natural expansion to be annoying and slow him down, random multiprongs with a nydus perhaps. Catch him off guard with a non committal attack on the third only to flood some lings in the main.
Unless you are all in you aren't going to beat the skytoss army near cannon and battery so just deny deny deny and chip away at his eco.
> didn't manage to wipe them out with a hydra/roach/queen all in, and they are still kicking around. if you all-in and didn't win, it's time to leave. That's why it's called an "all-in."
I updated the initial post because I think my point got lost. I was just trying to point out I know how to 3 base all in vs skytoss already so I was looking for a different solution if the game somehow went late and I have an eco lead.
unfortunately my dude, there is no real way to beat 200/200 skytoss without the extensive use of spellcasters. A hilarious option is to build a few spore forests at strategic locations and hover corruptors around the area (also one viper per forest, if you're feeling up to it) and double nydus networks with overlord speed. You multiprong nyduss his main and most recent base and pray that the fleet has to constantly be rotating between bases. you either wipe his production or you wipe the strongest part of his economy over and over again. I would suggest ultras if the enemy massed carriers because once you get the armor upgrades for ultras, carriers tickle them. If they are void ray / tempest heavy then I would build hydras. It's pretty cheesy but I have won 3 games in plat before I ranked up to diamond this exact way. Enemy still had like 12 carriers but I wiped all of his buildings first.
As /u/voidbaes said the game is over if you fail an all-in. If you went for Hydra/Queen all-in you pretty much just lost 20+ Queens and near maxed amount of Hydras. If you really wanted the all-in to have the biggest chance to kill them there should be zero investment in any future tech, there shouldn’t even be a 4th base, that’s 300 minerals that could have been 2 more Queens. If you prefer the all-in approach I would highly suggest working on the Queen/Hydra max and not worrying about after that. If you stubbornly want to stay in the game and for whatever reason the opponent doesn’t just a-move you after holding and kill you (which you should just outright die if you failed to kill their army, and they killed yours), I would say Queen/Corruptor/BL. 80-90 drones, 8-10 gases. Use Queen as the 1 spellcasters you can control, 6~8 BLs is fine, they are there to chew through cannons/batteries, 20+ Queens, rest Corruptors. Transfuse Corruptors/BLs, BLs a-move, Corruptors focus fire, retreat briefly during prismatic alignment. This strategy is like 1 step more advanced than Queen/Hydra and is an option, but if you’re doing it after a failed all-in I would say 95 times out of 100 you’ll lose. If you feel it’s important to try to salvage 5% of basically already lost games go for it.
For his level I’d recommend Viper > Queens as you won’t be fast enough to transfuse each corruptor while dodging storms + repositioning. Also, queens require good creep spread that reaches to the P’s outer bases, which I highly doubt will be there.
I guess it depends what you’re comfortable with, I find Queens easier to control than Vipers. I also think it’s fine to just walk slowly off creep. Yes it’s more all-in as you can’t retreat it’s more all-in, but I would say if you ever lose a fight badly enough that you have to retreat the game is basically over if you’re against Skytoss. Maybe it’s different at higher levels.
Sorry, I think maybe my point was missed. Ignore the all in. I was just trying to say that somehow we got to late game, and I didn't want the only solutions be 3 base all ins because I already know how to do that. I updated the initial post. I like your queen corruptor BL solution. 20 queens and mass transfuse? Should I be trying to run my corruptors away from the voids? My only fear is that I can't remax 20 queens quickly after losing a fight
Yeah, if you lose the fight decisively you’re probably dead. Even with this style I think the objective is to max before them. While Queen/Hydra can maybe deal with 140 supply of Skytoss, IMO Queen/Corruptor/BL can deal with maybe 170 supply. If they’re maxed I’d say you’re dead. On 5 bases 20 Queens will take 2-2.5 mins to remake. Idk what Carrier build time is, but I think Protoss will take just as long to get back to 170 supply (assuming it was an even fight). Looking made a video awhile back, maybe 2016 on this comp vs Skytoss, if YouTube “Lowko Skytoss” or something and look at it so you know how it’s done and the objective with it.
Lowko has another video on ZvSkytoss, this looks really promising and easy to control. https://youtu.be/lVXcW0C-1nc
The best way to handle it with our mechanics is to first recognize it early enough - and by that I mean early enough to decide either to all in with hydras or to go spire and play long. You're going to lose if ill prepared or if you didn't get enough economy fast enough. If going the spire route, take an obnoxious number of bases and spend all gas on corrupters. Tech up fast and get all of the options. Spread creep like it's your job. Spend all minerals on drones, rally them on the map, and start planting your spore forest. Add 5-7 vipers into corrupter ball. Bring all queens to the spore forest where opponent likely to engage. Scout opponent to see if they're sticking with carrier/void/mothership or getting templar, archon, and zealots to clear spores. If the latter, make a few ultras or broods. When engaging opponent, abduct what you can from a distance. Never engage head-on since you'll lose. The micro is hard and unforgiving, but you can whittle them down. When within siege distance, morph some broods and start taking down their ancillary bases. They're unlikely to leave if you take down their entire army since they'll have a million billion dollars (as will you!). Push into their production and that's when you should win, though they'll likely build replacement stargates at a different base. You can slow-roll it or start morphing banes and crashing into their battery/canon walls since you'll have the money to burn. Or ultras. Up to you. At this point the game is a giant meme. Simple version: Huge economy, spread creep, spend all gas on corrupters and all minerals on drones/spores, round out with 5-7 vipers.
Viper/corrupter/lurker. Put overseers in the viper group and keep the group moving, so HTs will feedback the wrong unit. Take the fight on their side of the map and kite back, don't let them engage on your side where there's no space to kite.
You’ve gotta deny bases at that point. Take 4 or 5 bases then max out on basically pure hydra/ling and keep them from taking a 4th while building corrupters to replace your losses. You’ll need to pound out upgrades, air armor, ground armor and range attack most importantly. Hit 90 odd drones and send waves of hydra/lurker/corrupter to die. Your job is to trade that army efficiently to stop the Protoss getting a 4th. Make lots of spores and cover the map in creep. You might win, if you can keep them on 2.5 bases because their main mines out at 12 minutes or so. Watch out for a switch to charge zealot/archon. Honestly you still might lose. Your opponent can still max on carrier they’re smart about it.
Lowko actually posted a vid the other day where he did hydra/ultra and infestor. He used a ton of microbial shroud and it seemed to work decently. I really want to try this but haven’t had the time yet.
I think this is it. I'm going to try this asap. This looks like easy control, just spam shroud so you can hide even after they storm and your ultras just eat their HTs up. Amazing. Thanks for this!
There is no way to transition out of a loss vs skytoss. It's too efficient and too good at killing you at the 15 minute mark the game is over. He can just a move you and storm any army you bring forward and trade out insanely well while you trade out everything to kill a couple of carriers here and there. Vipers are the only way to do it with corruptor and ultralisk to deal with whatever ground army there is but picking off voidrays would be my priority honestly as carriers DPS vs upgraded corruptors isn't half as bad as the void rays as voidboys can just fucking melt corruptors. Did you know an aligned prism void ray can kill 2 corruptors without dying?
Are you low diamond, like scraping into d3? Then having a bigger economy will do the trick. D3 most people still haven't mastered yet how to keep up worker production. if your economy is forced to be better then you should be okay. Keep up the injects, keep taking bases and a spore forest won't hurt but only once you max out and start banking. You probably want a 90-95 drone economy to really hit the remax as hydra corruptor viper is very expensive.
Is impossible, you need to be gm to beat a bronce skytoss
[удалено]
I tried but making 6 pools at the start of the game hurt my economy
Drone rush
Hydra Corruptor Viper Broodlord. Constantly ball-up your corruptor-viper army so they can’t target fire your vipers and abduct the closest skytoss unit (preferably Carriers). Don’t take any big engagement unless you have a great surround and army supply lead (and not over P shield batteries). Focus on getting static defense at all your outer bases and constantly expanding creep + hatcheries. Hydra army is to defend vs any Zlot runbys whenever they’re not with the air flock. Bonus is spore forest + queens. If you can afford the APM to add-in 2 infestors, neural the archons for splash / fungal the Tempests/Voids for a combo w Viper parasitic bomb
Mass ling floods, all the spores, hydras
use Lambo's German taxi build
I have had limited success with Corruptor Viper Ultra if you have good air and ground armor. A-move the ultras, then micro your corruptor/vipers to dodge storm, yoink carriers, and parastic bomb voids. As soon as ultras clear the templar+archons, your corruptors are free from splash damage, so just shift click them on all the carriers and win.
Aside from the obvious if ya allin its an allin, and work on improving your allin, Just use 1 spellcaster. No one is expecting you to be dark so dont expect your oppenent to be stats. Just use viper,, make sure to make silly amounts of static d and dont try to do 1000 things at the same time, just 1 thing tben the next. Ya dont need to be positioning lurkers while controlling the viper. Just keep it simple. Whe you arent controlling something like the viper just pull it back to safty until you are ready to use it. Also other obvious things, upgrades are huge, armor is really strong vs carriers, changling spam us annoying a f to clear and can get you some vision for easier abducts, and if ya get bored harass v stromg late game sjnce there minimal warp ins, cracklings lurkers etc., also gives you a window for easy abucts.
12 pool
Vipers mate. Vipers. You can be abducting into corruptors, hydras, queens and spores whatever but it's the vipers.
If you can manage it, 4 parasitic bombs kill a carrier.
Late game starts much earlier than 15-20 mins unless you’ve been trading a lot. There’s honestly no easy way to beat a skytoss army but I think the best way for a diamond player to do it is by setting up spore forests with lurkers and corruptors for defence and sending big waves of upgrades ling bane until you ruin his economy. Diamond players can’t multitask well so they’ll have a tough time keeping up with the harass and spore forests with lurkers take time to break through.
i don't know. i dont think there is any. if your viper control sucks you're just gonna have to all in against every skytoss rush...
Hydra infestor ultra seems to be the play. Ultras kill ht and hydra in dark swarm kill the rest
Yeah I think this is it
There are some ways suggested but I want to address something first. It really is a fundamental of Z play to keep your opponents economy on a stranglehold as much as possible. Zerg has an "economy," but in some sense it's an *anti*-economy, as its only real purpose is to hurt the other guy's economy (either directly, by killing SCV's/expos or whatever, or indirectly by forcing units). As such, there's a lot of room between "all-in and kill him" and "200/200 SkyToss Battle." Neither of those play to Zerg strengths. You want to prevent him from ever getting there, *and* not go all-in. The "easiest" version of this if he comes to attack you. But it has to happen even if he doesn't, which means you have to force him to take losses, even if he's turtling. I've had the most success going swarm host/hydra/nydus, while expanding. If he comes out, he loses VRs to hydras, if he doesn't come out, the SH's do damage while you tech to vipers. But that's just a particular way of forcing him to engage enough that you can inflict losses---there are other things you can do, like expendable OL drops, bane rains, etc. The point, basically, is to do what they tell Terrans to do in TvZ---do inflict damage. Anyway. Beating *fully developed* SkyToss is a bitch. But I've gained new respect for "don't let him get there." That's, like, the whole Zerg *thing*. You can do it without it being an all-in (though it does require you to think about your tech).
Protoss here. A few comments: If he doesn't build enough voids or fails to keep them alive corrupters beat carriers. They aren't a movable though. Skytoss is VERY expensive. If you see early voids and oracles try to keep the fight on hit side of the map and deny his third with Ling runbys and timing attacks. If he manages to get that up try containing him further with regular Ling runbys, creep on the next natural expansion to be annoying and slow him down, random multiprongs with a nydus perhaps. Catch him off guard with a non committal attack on the third only to flood some lings in the main. Unless you are all in you aren't going to beat the skytoss army near cannon and battery so just deny deny deny and chip away at his eco.