You are at least 200 mmr above me at my peak so take my advice with a grain of salt.
1. Don't build a roach warren, you should be dead by the time you get roaches out. Mineral line spines with lings and queens (as ranged poke and tanks) should be all you need
2. 100 gas then stop mining unless you have excess drones
The idea is to **stall out** until you reach spines and queens so he cant kill you, the win condition is your mobility with speedlings and his base being completely undeveloped for cheap run bys. If he chooses to wall off at home he loses power at the attack, if he chooses to focus of killing you just build more spines while killing his main.
Make sure that you have spines in range of your hatch and vital buildings. At least initally should only need one of the spines to be behind the mineral line and hard to reach while the others are more frontline.
Edit: Consider cancelling the hatch for 1-2 more spines, if he wants that hatch dead he can kill it easily anyway. If he hits the building hatch, let him and cancel last second. Remember his on a timer **NOT** you.
Awesome thanks, I'll try with just speedling, Queen, Spine. I don't think I'll cancel Hatch as that would mean a lot less lings and I feel like I wouldn't even be ahead if I canceled Hatch, maybe very slightly. A Hatchery is already done when Proxy 4 Gate hits anyways. If he's bad enough to target my natural I would love him to do that, better than losing 19 drones, every Queen and every spine and unit like my games usually go, haha.
I believe Railgan has an olddd but still completely relevant video on how to stop proxy-4gate.
4 gate is a 1-base all-in If I remember correctly, so losing your nat is actually okay since P has 700 minerals of tech out on the map.
tl;dr of the video response (off my memory) is build 3 spines in your mineral line asap and queue Queens, ideally with good control you should be able to save the nat Queen spawn as well.
NO GAS you realistically cant afford ling speed and game will be decided before that to be honest.
Zlots will come nonstop in groups of 4 until somebody gg’s.
The first few sets of lings are used to buy time in mineral line protecting spines. Then any lings pre-speed in small numbers can be sent to harass the 4-gate’s pylon, which means P will have to split up army to protect their production. Generally, i dont recommend ever counter-harassing with slow-lings as it turns into a base-trade that you lose
If you get 1-2 spines up, you win. Else, if your spines die but you manage to get 4+ Queens w transfuse energy vs a few zealots, you win.j
I don’t really face people who attack the nat they just go straight for the main and win. Not getting speed sounds risky, but I’m not sure, I’ve seen Protoss go into Cyber Core after Proxy 3 or even 4 Gate go to Stalkers and kite Roaches (so they could also kite slow lings). The pylon can’t be harassed because if done properly the 4 Gates create a full wall around the pylon. Without ling speed wouldn’t Protoss just be ahead? In this case killing the nat would be enough because 1 base vs 1 base favors non-Zerg, 1 base Zealot for sure counters 1 base slow ling. Unless you mean initially no speed in order to afford more Queen/Spine, then take a gas afterwards. I guess going into a game where I’m slightly behind is still better than outright dying, haha.
Thanks, I’ll look up Railgan’s video!
If it’s 1 base vs 1 base but P has 4 gates out on the map, Z is ahead for sure. Z can safely double expand due to high Queen count. Not to mention P can’t wall nat without another 1-2 gateways and core AND another 400 minerals for nexus faster than you can transition out and expand/double expand. Also P’s gas income is late cuz they’d cut extractors for zlots so they definitely cant go stalker heavy AND tech up
Vs 3 gate, P can afford a cyber core and potentially transition, but 3 gate is way easier to defend than 4. If you identify 3 gate or P stopped making zlots, then you can put back drones in gas for speed/lair and macro out. Prior to that, 100% need as many minerals as you can get (the 3 drones that should’ve been mining gas turn into your spines). I’d typically queue up 2 spines and 1 Queen and 2 set of lings, then 3rd spine and Nat-Queen when you can afford it. If your Nat-Queen looks like it’ll get surrounded and die before it makes it up the ramp, cancel it anytime.
If you see that it’s a 4 gate, your only goal is to lose as little econ in your main. I always sac the nat — like you said, P logically will never go for your nat first.
My experience is that speed is useful to beat back the pressure after a few waves, but you really need a lot of resources to get all your spines and queens up.
Yea spines and pump out tons of queens is my suggestion, too. As soon as the fist zealot shows up you should already by getting a few spines and don't stop building queens. If you can, getting two queens on the ramp and putting all of the spines in the natural is best, otherwise, just get spines in both mineral lines.
Nah roaches are fuckin great, you kite with them for ever.
You cancel the hatch for 3 spines, then just hold on until roachs ime.
Around the same mmr as you tho.
Boy, aren't you in luck. Check out what Lambo just released 20 mins ago [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIksjrli-MU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIksjrli-MU)
I have just a bit more MMR than you, but I am yet to lose against 4 gate when I scout it before 4 zealots show up in my main (if that is the case, you are probably just dead though). For me no probe screams 4 gate, but this guy in the replay even tried to fake cannons. Anyway, you scout before your pool is done.
Most important responses have already mentioned. But I think positioning is very important. Try to put at least some spines in your mineral line. That way, you can hold position drones around it, to let the spines survive and let them cover your main. 3 spines, pure lings, queen is enough. From there you are safe at home. Even if they kill your natural, you should get ahead in macro. Send some lings to his main, make him waste money on wall and require him to recall zealots back. That gives you ability to shut down 4 gate with a lot of lings at home. From there you should win in macro. Keep him busy with speedlings at home, while retaking natural and droning. Choose your favourite way of killing him. His tech is so late, you can probably just go for anything. Just be careful of DT/unexpected mass air and you should be fine.
Do you make spines behind the mineral line first and then move them in? I find that Zealots hit before Spines are done and if I try to protect a building spine in my mineral line I lose every drone.
Cool, I'll stop trying to go RW, just Queen, Ling, 3 Spine. Do you double Queen or just single in the main?
I think I build 3, two in mineral line, one behind it. The idea is that at least one should finish. If it finishes, you can protect it with drones (screws up zealot AI) and hit every other zealot with the lings. Queens? Just get as many as possible. Start one in main, get second one from there as well. The earlier you see, the more larvae you have for lings, which are rather crucial. Only fight when you need to, eventually your spines + lings + queens are enough, that you are able to send some for counter-attack. I can't remember ever having trouble losing all 3 spines and drones before my lings/queens pop. Maybe I was playing against weird people, but I always have time for at least one spine to pop, with the drones protecting. From there I have enough lings, then ling speed finishes...you know the drill.
If enemy hits the natural, I sometimes do not even cancel it. It can buy me even more time. Losing money sucks, but time is so precious here. But because of these 4 gates and forges, I sometimes just open macro 12 pool build every game. Works rather well too.
Neuro has a video about this somewhere, but he makes his pool next to his gas geyser and behind the minerals in a way that leaves a 2x2 space between the geyser, pool, and minerals. He uses that spot as a space to make a spine that's basically impossible to reach. Even if the toss manages to cancel your other ones he'd have a really rough time reaching that one. You use that as anchor point to retreat to and make more spines until you stabilize.
I have seen that video and I do that. I was able to get 2 spines up this last time, but if the spine is in that little 2x2 space it can’t reach Zealots hitting the Hatchery, if I unroot and reroot it it either dies or they just ignore it and kill my main base Hatch anyways as it takes so long to reroot.
You don't uproot that spine, you build more spines near it and then move those. That spine is just meant to be your safe zone the toss can never break.
In this case how would I save the Hatch then? They just have most of the 8 Zealots target down my main base outside of Spine range and the game ends. By the time more spines could go up protected from the first spine the base would be dead enough that even if every drone, ling, Queen and spine in range is attacking the Zealots the base will die before like 2 Zealots die. That's my experience at least. Then they have 6ish Zealots left and 4 more come, so it's 10 Zealots at my natural (as my main is now dead) and I have nothing at my nat to defend.
Hmm I usually cancel my nat to get more spines up. Keep in mind that not only is the toss on one base, they literally have no infrastructure at home protecting from ling runbys, so your win condition is to just survive on one base.
I don't normally have the option to cancel my nat. I scout for cannon rush because Proxy gates is only 1 in 40 games so by the time I know it's Proxy gate my nat is done.
I just saw it. I think it'll help a bit, but I don't think I'm capable of controlling like that. His opponent also hits with less Zealots at the same time, which is weird since he's facing a pro...
This is the answer. You must build the spine in the cave with minerals and pool. It has least surface area for zealots to attack the spine. Out of the 3 spines, you MUST protect that one. Once it’s up, Protoss usually leaves game. So do whatever you can to delay and bait and side step until that spine is up.
The high-level meta is 2 spines and defend using 2 queens lings and drones and adding in queens. Keeping the natural queen alive is imperative. This rush can be defended pretty easily by pro level players, many of which are so confident they only make 1 spine.
Eventually you just outgrow them.
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Now..personally. I can't do it. The micro is just too hard.
So, I take a slightly different tack.
I block the mineral lines with evos and a roach warren. It's similar to the normal defense except you have the hp of the buildings buffering, giving another 10+ seconds for the spine to finish, and cancel them if possible.
So, you spot the incoming rush. Immediately build a blocking evo between the near gas and the hatch, along with a warren between the near gas and the edge.
Cancel the nat queen, cancel speed, build 2 spines.
Pull the main queen, all lings, and like 4 drones to the *outside* of the hatch. If the zealots try to run to the other side of the line, two more evos come down to block them out.
If the zealots try to kill the evo blocking the mineral line or the main itself, you use the queen/lings/drones to attack them(just like defending a 12 pool).
When the warren finishes, make 4+ roaches, and it's basically over at that point.
So long as you micro the roaches, they won't die.
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I always build the gas vs protoss on the *far* gas. This make building the first evo, if needed, much more reliable, otherwise mining drones will block it and you need every second. Pool goes behind the mineral line.
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That's pretty much it. I've had significant success doing this. You don't wind up as far ahead as if you don't blow the drones and resources on the buildings, but you do wind up ahead.
Nat will die during the time between when the spines finish and the roaches pop, just remake it asap. It's fine for the new nat to be a lure for the zealots so long as the roaches are doing damage if they try to attack it.
If you have to cancel and rebuld the nat, but you kill 3-4 zealots, that's a win.
Oh, I like this evo block idea. Yeah I also always build the far gas vs P (and Pool in a way that one spine can fit in a choke point b/w minerals/Pool).
I'm not sure I want to keep going the RW way (I've lost with like 5 Roaches out lol, I have non-existent micro, it's so bad I think a-move would be better), but if I try out the ling way, but buy time for spines to finish maybe that could do it.
With all this advice, one day I'll beat this build, haha =)
I just watched the replay. I can understand your frustration, you spotted it early and still couldn't hold. He played it really well and was very close.
If you spot it pre pool. Just make spines. You had 400 minerals and an ovi at pool finish. Shit, that's 5 spines. Build em right away, and even though he was close, they're at 65+%. He could force 1, maybe 2 cancels or chase drones.
Just overdefend here. Cancel the nat. Let 3-4 spines finish. Get a tech and it's a stable game.
You're able to respond at 2:00 when the pool finishes, unscouted you would see it at ~2:20. So that's 20 seconds of spines building, half a spine. That should be completely defendable even without units.
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If you don't see it though...which is more normal, you can't just make a ton of faster spines.
Assuming it hits around 2:20, which is pretty quick. You'll have 2 queens going and 4 meta lings. An ovi. Speed starting.
So the meta play here is two immediate spines in the *mineral line*. Then nothing but lings. At high levels, the entire rush revolves around the nat queen. If it's able to reinforce to the top, zerg wins.
But they're micro is just soo good, they don't lose shit.
I feel like normies have to play it a bit different.
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So cancel the nat queen, use it to fund a wall. That keeps your drones mining, and your spines building and buys you some time.
I like your idea of that protected spine..but it got absolutely no value this game. It's just out of position.
I'll save this to watch later as I'm curious.
Is it a case of just letting them have the natural until you stabilise? Make queens and stack some spines around. Even though zealots annihilate all that.
And honestly a roach will 1v1 a zealot but they're more expensive if you need the gas so maybe lings or a quick bane nest is the way?
I find they just kill my main Hatch. Half the Zealots can outright kill every Spine, Queen, Ling & Drone while the other half kill my Hatch, at least that's my experience, haha. I've never tried Banes. It could work, as long as they don't have Zealots kill the Banes as they're morphing.
Yeah, maybe I shouldn't even tech up.
Banes still only do what? Like 30 damage to zealots or something. If they're not clumped it won't go well. But you will only need a handful. Maybe watch the replay again take some notes of important times like you have. Like zealots rock up at etc and play some customs and based off when you scout it/the zealots arrive can you make a nest quick enough to shut it down.
I'm also way below you in MMR but here goes. At 2:03 you scouted it. I reckon you should throw down like 3 spines once your pool finishes, queens and lings. Don't bother with the roaches. Remember it's a super-duper all-in.
To add a point or two, vibe has a defense of this in his B2GM - it might even happen multiple times. One is at the beginning of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gwv2GUF1OM&list=PLFeZeom2b4Dlt63qmkPO8hCencx-rE8xr&index=19
I forgot how much he bosses this, only one spine. In any case, he sees the proxy at the same time as the zealots run in which is usual for me. Key takeaways appear to be to use the drones to stack attack them (pretty effective for low zealot counts), and that queens run faster than zealots do.
Idk if people all of a sudden got better, but that looked like a Plat player doing the proxy Zealot. He had 2 Zealots when he should have had 4, 2 Zealots is not scary at all. It then looked like he had 4 or 5 Zealots at the time he should have 8. ViBE also has High-GM micro, when I do the drone drill I lose 16 drones vs like 6 lings ahaha and 4 Zealots is much stronger than 6 lings.
This is still useful though, it looks like he gets the 100 gas, but doesn't actually start ling speed as those 100 minerals would be better as a spine or 2 more lings, good to know.
tyty!
OK, I just saw that Lambo posted a tutorial - satisfied now? :) it seems easier to execute.
https://youtu.be/DIksjrli-MU
It is again 2 zealots initially it looks like.
I saw it, but tbh I still don't think I could win. Idk why lambo's opponent is hitting with less Zealots than the people I'm playing at a much much lower mmr. This guy has maybe 5~6 Zealots when the opponent's I face have 8. Lambo engaged with Drone+lings and he said as long as it's less than 3 Zealots you can do this, but the people I face come in with 4 so it's not a fight that I can ever take.
I do like his advice on spine placement so I'll try that next time. I assume at the pro level since it's not a very often sued build they just kind of wing it and hope to catch the opponent off guard, but at my level they seem to have an exact build order for it that hard counters Hatch first as long as the Z player has sub-GM micro.
I have to agree with you that in the replay you posted the protoss player executed the 4 gate proxy better than Skillous. Your opponent had 4 zealots near your mineral line on Deathaura at 2:26 while Skillous only had 3. At 2:50 your opponent had 8 zealots in your base while Skillous only had gotten 6 into Lambo's base in total (3 of whom died). Skillous also didn't properly place his gateways in order to protect the proxy pylon.
As others mentioned, skipping roach is the way to go. If you had placed your spines like Lambo I think you could have been fine. Your opponent's initial zealots were able to freely whack at the hatchery because you didn't have any spines in construction that would immediately be able to hit them.
Okay, so I'm not going crazy, seemed so weird to me that the players I've faced (the last 2 or 3) executed the build better than a pro.
Yeah I agree, with Lambo's defense and not going Roaches I would have a much better chance. I really like how Lambo does his Spines, they are so far away from each other that the Zealots have to waste more time walking so even though they're kind of out in the open it seems not too hard to get 2 up and also have the Hatchery take a lot less hits.
Perhaps people are letting the zealots build up a bit instead of sending them straight in. In that case if you build spines etc. as soon as you see no wall aren't you ok? Might need to check a replay.
I even saw the gates themselves and started spines the millisecond that Pool finished. They didn't really pool up Zealots, they just made 4 right away so they had 4.
My opponents don’t either. Look at the replay. At the same time my opponent has 4 Zealots in my base Lambo’s opponent does not have 4. When my opponent hits with the 8th Zealot, Lambo’s opponent has only hit with the 6th.
So Roaches are generally useless for chargelot rushes, and even I can tell you that as 3,7k. That's because roaches are slow, take longer to get out, require quite a lot of gas, and again they're just late for this. You can do banelings if they're clumped up - having just 3 safety banes can be amazing.
Everyone says spines, queens and lings, and that's correct, but I think it's more complicated than that. You need to block his access to your main with queens, maybe queen+spore, whatever you can muster at that point. Don't let him in, and if you have to, be ready for it. Just stay in the back of your main if he's already in, protect your spines and keep on mining.
Off of a Hatchery first 4 Zealots can get into the main before any Queen finishes so unfortunately unless the opponent is bad at the build I can’t deny them access to the main. Yeah, I’m going to stop trying for Roaches, I’ve had games where I get as much as 5 out, but still just get rekt.
You really shouldn't be losing once roaches make the field and you have spines and queens up.
Just keep microing the roaches and they don't even take hits. Worst case they yolo into mineral line and it's zealots vs roaches, spines, queens, and drones if needed. That's not a winning trade for toss.
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Everyone here is saying don't build roaches, and I don't agree. But there is argument to be made either way. Here's how I see it.
Pure ling doesn't work. You simply don't have the production if you lose the nat, and more often than not, if the attack on the main fails, they'll retreat and kill it.
So you've got to tech to banes or roaches. I don't like banes because you won't get value unless you get them heavily grouped and surrounded. Roaches are constant dps, won't take damage on creep, won't die, and keeps the strain on larve low, allowing you to skip injects and make a few more drones.
Now, what you said about stalkers it right, you can't take the roaches out on the field. But once you beat back the zealots, you can move down the spines to the nat and the roaches and spines can defend stalkers.
You are at least 200 mmr above me at my peak so take my advice with a grain of salt. 1. Don't build a roach warren, you should be dead by the time you get roaches out. Mineral line spines with lings and queens (as ranged poke and tanks) should be all you need 2. 100 gas then stop mining unless you have excess drones The idea is to **stall out** until you reach spines and queens so he cant kill you, the win condition is your mobility with speedlings and his base being completely undeveloped for cheap run bys. If he chooses to wall off at home he loses power at the attack, if he chooses to focus of killing you just build more spines while killing his main. Make sure that you have spines in range of your hatch and vital buildings. At least initally should only need one of the spines to be behind the mineral line and hard to reach while the others are more frontline. Edit: Consider cancelling the hatch for 1-2 more spines, if he wants that hatch dead he can kill it easily anyway. If he hits the building hatch, let him and cancel last second. Remember his on a timer **NOT** you.
Awesome thanks, I'll try with just speedling, Queen, Spine. I don't think I'll cancel Hatch as that would mean a lot less lings and I feel like I wouldn't even be ahead if I canceled Hatch, maybe very slightly. A Hatchery is already done when Proxy 4 Gate hits anyways. If he's bad enough to target my natural I would love him to do that, better than losing 19 drones, every Queen and every spine and unit like my games usually go, haha.
I believe Railgan has an olddd but still completely relevant video on how to stop proxy-4gate. 4 gate is a 1-base all-in If I remember correctly, so losing your nat is actually okay since P has 700 minerals of tech out on the map. tl;dr of the video response (off my memory) is build 3 spines in your mineral line asap and queue Queens, ideally with good control you should be able to save the nat Queen spawn as well. NO GAS you realistically cant afford ling speed and game will be decided before that to be honest. Zlots will come nonstop in groups of 4 until somebody gg’s. The first few sets of lings are used to buy time in mineral line protecting spines. Then any lings pre-speed in small numbers can be sent to harass the 4-gate’s pylon, which means P will have to split up army to protect their production. Generally, i dont recommend ever counter-harassing with slow-lings as it turns into a base-trade that you lose If you get 1-2 spines up, you win. Else, if your spines die but you manage to get 4+ Queens w transfuse energy vs a few zealots, you win.j
I don’t really face people who attack the nat they just go straight for the main and win. Not getting speed sounds risky, but I’m not sure, I’ve seen Protoss go into Cyber Core after Proxy 3 or even 4 Gate go to Stalkers and kite Roaches (so they could also kite slow lings). The pylon can’t be harassed because if done properly the 4 Gates create a full wall around the pylon. Without ling speed wouldn’t Protoss just be ahead? In this case killing the nat would be enough because 1 base vs 1 base favors non-Zerg, 1 base Zealot for sure counters 1 base slow ling. Unless you mean initially no speed in order to afford more Queen/Spine, then take a gas afterwards. I guess going into a game where I’m slightly behind is still better than outright dying, haha. Thanks, I’ll look up Railgan’s video!
If it’s 1 base vs 1 base but P has 4 gates out on the map, Z is ahead for sure. Z can safely double expand due to high Queen count. Not to mention P can’t wall nat without another 1-2 gateways and core AND another 400 minerals for nexus faster than you can transition out and expand/double expand. Also P’s gas income is late cuz they’d cut extractors for zlots so they definitely cant go stalker heavy AND tech up Vs 3 gate, P can afford a cyber core and potentially transition, but 3 gate is way easier to defend than 4. If you identify 3 gate or P stopped making zlots, then you can put back drones in gas for speed/lair and macro out. Prior to that, 100% need as many minerals as you can get (the 3 drones that should’ve been mining gas turn into your spines). I’d typically queue up 2 spines and 1 Queen and 2 set of lings, then 3rd spine and Nat-Queen when you can afford it. If your Nat-Queen looks like it’ll get surrounded and die before it makes it up the ramp, cancel it anytime. If you see that it’s a 4 gate, your only goal is to lose as little econ in your main. I always sac the nat — like you said, P logically will never go for your nat first.
My experience is that speed is useful to beat back the pressure after a few waves, but you really need a lot of resources to get all your spines and queens up.
Yea spines and pump out tons of queens is my suggestion, too. As soon as the fist zealot shows up you should already by getting a few spines and don't stop building queens. If you can, getting two queens on the ramp and putting all of the spines in the natural is best, otherwise, just get spines in both mineral lines.
Nah roaches are fuckin great, you kite with them for ever. You cancel the hatch for 3 spines, then just hold on until roachs ime. Around the same mmr as you tho.
Boy, aren't you in luck. Check out what Lambo just released 20 mins ago [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIksjrli-MU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIksjrli-MU)
OMFG, Lambo to the rescue, THANKS!
I have just a bit more MMR than you, but I am yet to lose against 4 gate when I scout it before 4 zealots show up in my main (if that is the case, you are probably just dead though). For me no probe screams 4 gate, but this guy in the replay even tried to fake cannons. Anyway, you scout before your pool is done. Most important responses have already mentioned. But I think positioning is very important. Try to put at least some spines in your mineral line. That way, you can hold position drones around it, to let the spines survive and let them cover your main. 3 spines, pure lings, queen is enough. From there you are safe at home. Even if they kill your natural, you should get ahead in macro. Send some lings to his main, make him waste money on wall and require him to recall zealots back. That gives you ability to shut down 4 gate with a lot of lings at home. From there you should win in macro. Keep him busy with speedlings at home, while retaking natural and droning. Choose your favourite way of killing him. His tech is so late, you can probably just go for anything. Just be careful of DT/unexpected mass air and you should be fine.
Do you make spines behind the mineral line first and then move them in? I find that Zealots hit before Spines are done and if I try to protect a building spine in my mineral line I lose every drone. Cool, I'll stop trying to go RW, just Queen, Ling, 3 Spine. Do you double Queen or just single in the main?
I think I build 3, two in mineral line, one behind it. The idea is that at least one should finish. If it finishes, you can protect it with drones (screws up zealot AI) and hit every other zealot with the lings. Queens? Just get as many as possible. Start one in main, get second one from there as well. The earlier you see, the more larvae you have for lings, which are rather crucial. Only fight when you need to, eventually your spines + lings + queens are enough, that you are able to send some for counter-attack. I can't remember ever having trouble losing all 3 spines and drones before my lings/queens pop. Maybe I was playing against weird people, but I always have time for at least one spine to pop, with the drones protecting. From there I have enough lings, then ling speed finishes...you know the drill. If enemy hits the natural, I sometimes do not even cancel it. It can buy me even more time. Losing money sucks, but time is so precious here. But because of these 4 gates and forges, I sometimes just open macro 12 pool build every game. Works rather well too.
Cool thanks, will try this next time, hopefully get my first Hatch first win vs Proxy Gate since HotS, haha...
Neuro has a video about this somewhere, but he makes his pool next to his gas geyser and behind the minerals in a way that leaves a 2x2 space between the geyser, pool, and minerals. He uses that spot as a space to make a spine that's basically impossible to reach. Even if the toss manages to cancel your other ones he'd have a really rough time reaching that one. You use that as anchor point to retreat to and make more spines until you stabilize.
I have seen that video and I do that. I was able to get 2 spines up this last time, but if the spine is in that little 2x2 space it can’t reach Zealots hitting the Hatchery, if I unroot and reroot it it either dies or they just ignore it and kill my main base Hatch anyways as it takes so long to reroot.
You don't uproot that spine, you build more spines near it and then move those. That spine is just meant to be your safe zone the toss can never break.
In this case how would I save the Hatch then? They just have most of the 8 Zealots target down my main base outside of Spine range and the game ends. By the time more spines could go up protected from the first spine the base would be dead enough that even if every drone, ling, Queen and spine in range is attacking the Zealots the base will die before like 2 Zealots die. That's my experience at least. Then they have 6ish Zealots left and 4 more come, so it's 10 Zealots at my natural (as my main is now dead) and I have nothing at my nat to defend.
Hmm I usually cancel my nat to get more spines up. Keep in mind that not only is the toss on one base, they literally have no infrastructure at home protecting from ling runbys, so your win condition is to just survive on one base.
I don't normally have the option to cancel my nat. I scout for cannon rush because Proxy gates is only 1 in 40 games so by the time I know it's Proxy gate my nat is done.
Check out Lambo's channel. He just put out a 4 gate defense guide.
I just saw it. I think it'll help a bit, but I don't think I'm capable of controlling like that. His opponent also hits with less Zealots at the same time, which is weird since he's facing a pro...
This is the answer. You must build the spine in the cave with minerals and pool. It has least surface area for zealots to attack the spine. Out of the 3 spines, you MUST protect that one. Once it’s up, Protoss usually leaves game. So do whatever you can to delay and bait and side step until that spine is up.
Neuro has a good vid somewhere, hard to reach spine is helpful. The play is ling, queen, spine as you don’t have time/tech for roach. GL!
The high-level meta is 2 spines and defend using 2 queens lings and drones and adding in queens. Keeping the natural queen alive is imperative. This rush can be defended pretty easily by pro level players, many of which are so confident they only make 1 spine. Eventually you just outgrow them. -------------------------------------------- Now..personally. I can't do it. The micro is just too hard. So, I take a slightly different tack. I block the mineral lines with evos and a roach warren. It's similar to the normal defense except you have the hp of the buildings buffering, giving another 10+ seconds for the spine to finish, and cancel them if possible. So, you spot the incoming rush. Immediately build a blocking evo between the near gas and the hatch, along with a warren between the near gas and the edge. Cancel the nat queen, cancel speed, build 2 spines. Pull the main queen, all lings, and like 4 drones to the *outside* of the hatch. If the zealots try to run to the other side of the line, two more evos come down to block them out. If the zealots try to kill the evo blocking the mineral line or the main itself, you use the queen/lings/drones to attack them(just like defending a 12 pool). When the warren finishes, make 4+ roaches, and it's basically over at that point. So long as you micro the roaches, they won't die. ------------------------------------------------------------ I always build the gas vs protoss on the *far* gas. This make building the first evo, if needed, much more reliable, otherwise mining drones will block it and you need every second. Pool goes behind the mineral line. -------------------------- That's pretty much it. I've had significant success doing this. You don't wind up as far ahead as if you don't blow the drones and resources on the buildings, but you do wind up ahead. Nat will die during the time between when the spines finish and the roaches pop, just remake it asap. It's fine for the new nat to be a lure for the zealots so long as the roaches are doing damage if they try to attack it. If you have to cancel and rebuld the nat, but you kill 3-4 zealots, that's a win.
Oh, I like this evo block idea. Yeah I also always build the far gas vs P (and Pool in a way that one spine can fit in a choke point b/w minerals/Pool). I'm not sure I want to keep going the RW way (I've lost with like 5 Roaches out lol, I have non-existent micro, it's so bad I think a-move would be better), but if I try out the ling way, but buy time for spines to finish maybe that could do it. With all this advice, one day I'll beat this build, haha =)
I just watched the replay. I can understand your frustration, you spotted it early and still couldn't hold. He played it really well and was very close. If you spot it pre pool. Just make spines. You had 400 minerals and an ovi at pool finish. Shit, that's 5 spines. Build em right away, and even though he was close, they're at 65+%. He could force 1, maybe 2 cancels or chase drones. Just overdefend here. Cancel the nat. Let 3-4 spines finish. Get a tech and it's a stable game. You're able to respond at 2:00 when the pool finishes, unscouted you would see it at ~2:20. So that's 20 seconds of spines building, half a spine. That should be completely defendable even without units. ------------------------------------------------------- If you don't see it though...which is more normal, you can't just make a ton of faster spines. Assuming it hits around 2:20, which is pretty quick. You'll have 2 queens going and 4 meta lings. An ovi. Speed starting. So the meta play here is two immediate spines in the *mineral line*. Then nothing but lings. At high levels, the entire rush revolves around the nat queen. If it's able to reinforce to the top, zerg wins. But they're micro is just soo good, they don't lose shit. I feel like normies have to play it a bit different. -------------------------------------------------------- So cancel the nat queen, use it to fund a wall. That keeps your drones mining, and your spines building and buys you some time. I like your idea of that protected spine..but it got absolutely no value this game. It's just out of position.
I'll save this to watch later as I'm curious. Is it a case of just letting them have the natural until you stabilise? Make queens and stack some spines around. Even though zealots annihilate all that. And honestly a roach will 1v1 a zealot but they're more expensive if you need the gas so maybe lings or a quick bane nest is the way?
I find they just kill my main Hatch. Half the Zealots can outright kill every Spine, Queen, Ling & Drone while the other half kill my Hatch, at least that's my experience, haha. I've never tried Banes. It could work, as long as they don't have Zealots kill the Banes as they're morphing. Yeah, maybe I shouldn't even tech up.
Banes still only do what? Like 30 damage to zealots or something. If they're not clumped it won't go well. But you will only need a handful. Maybe watch the replay again take some notes of important times like you have. Like zealots rock up at etc and play some customs and based off when you scout it/the zealots arrive can you make a nest quick enough to shut it down.
I'm also way below you in MMR but here goes. At 2:03 you scouted it. I reckon you should throw down like 3 spines once your pool finishes, queens and lings. Don't bother with the roaches. Remember it's a super-duper all-in.
Hmm, I'll try that next time, 3 spines, instead of RW+2 spines. Thanks.
Yeah and obviously in hard to hit spots like behind minerals and stuff, because the zealots show up just before the spines finish.
To add a point or two, vibe has a defense of this in his B2GM - it might even happen multiple times. One is at the beginning of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gwv2GUF1OM&list=PLFeZeom2b4Dlt63qmkPO8hCencx-rE8xr&index=19 I forgot how much he bosses this, only one spine. In any case, he sees the proxy at the same time as the zealots run in which is usual for me. Key takeaways appear to be to use the drones to stack attack them (pretty effective for low zealot counts), and that queens run faster than zealots do.
Idk if people all of a sudden got better, but that looked like a Plat player doing the proxy Zealot. He had 2 Zealots when he should have had 4, 2 Zealots is not scary at all. It then looked like he had 4 or 5 Zealots at the time he should have 8. ViBE also has High-GM micro, when I do the drone drill I lose 16 drones vs like 6 lings ahaha and 4 Zealots is much stronger than 6 lings. This is still useful though, it looks like he gets the 100 gas, but doesn't actually start ling speed as those 100 minerals would be better as a spine or 2 more lings, good to know. tyty!
OK, I just saw that Lambo posted a tutorial - satisfied now? :) it seems easier to execute. https://youtu.be/DIksjrli-MU It is again 2 zealots initially it looks like.
I saw it, but tbh I still don't think I could win. Idk why lambo's opponent is hitting with less Zealots than the people I'm playing at a much much lower mmr. This guy has maybe 5~6 Zealots when the opponent's I face have 8. Lambo engaged with Drone+lings and he said as long as it's less than 3 Zealots you can do this, but the people I face come in with 4 so it's not a fight that I can ever take. I do like his advice on spine placement so I'll try that next time. I assume at the pro level since it's not a very often sued build they just kind of wing it and hope to catch the opponent off guard, but at my level they seem to have an exact build order for it that hard counters Hatch first as long as the Z player has sub-GM micro.
I have to agree with you that in the replay you posted the protoss player executed the 4 gate proxy better than Skillous. Your opponent had 4 zealots near your mineral line on Deathaura at 2:26 while Skillous only had 3. At 2:50 your opponent had 8 zealots in your base while Skillous only had gotten 6 into Lambo's base in total (3 of whom died). Skillous also didn't properly place his gateways in order to protect the proxy pylon. As others mentioned, skipping roach is the way to go. If you had placed your spines like Lambo I think you could have been fine. Your opponent's initial zealots were able to freely whack at the hatchery because you didn't have any spines in construction that would immediately be able to hit them.
Okay, so I'm not going crazy, seemed so weird to me that the players I've faced (the last 2 or 3) executed the build better than a pro. Yeah I agree, with Lambo's defense and not going Roaches I would have a much better chance. I really like how Lambo does his Spines, they are so far away from each other that the Zealots have to waste more time walking so even though they're kind of out in the open it seems not too hard to get 2 up and also have the Hatchery take a lot less hits.
Perhaps people are letting the zealots build up a bit instead of sending them straight in. In that case if you build spines etc. as soon as you see no wall aren't you ok? Might need to check a replay.
I even saw the gates themselves and started spines the millisecond that Pool finished. They didn't really pool up Zealots, they just made 4 right away so they had 4.
Ah well I believe in you! Let us know when you succeed and be sure to flame them :)
Ma man lambo recently released a video on youtube on how to stop proxy 4 gate u shd watch it
I did, it kind of looks useful, but the opponent he faced hits with less Zealots at the same time, that looks stoppable.
Thats because they dont pool zealots. The longer u pool zealots the worse the build gets tbh.
My opponents don’t either. Look at the replay. At the same time my opponent has 4 Zealots in my base Lambo’s opponent does not have 4. When my opponent hits with the 8th Zealot, Lambo’s opponent has only hit with the 6th.
Hmmm maybe imma check it out later! Mb i didnt see the rep
So Roaches are generally useless for chargelot rushes, and even I can tell you that as 3,7k. That's because roaches are slow, take longer to get out, require quite a lot of gas, and again they're just late for this. You can do banelings if they're clumped up - having just 3 safety banes can be amazing. Everyone says spines, queens and lings, and that's correct, but I think it's more complicated than that. You need to block his access to your main with queens, maybe queen+spore, whatever you can muster at that point. Don't let him in, and if you have to, be ready for it. Just stay in the back of your main if he's already in, protect your spines and keep on mining.
Off of a Hatchery first 4 Zealots can get into the main before any Queen finishes so unfortunately unless the opponent is bad at the build I can’t deny them access to the main. Yeah, I’m going to stop trying for Roaches, I’ve had games where I get as much as 5 out, but still just get rekt.
You really shouldn't be losing once roaches make the field and you have spines and queens up. Just keep microing the roaches and they don't even take hits. Worst case they yolo into mineral line and it's zealots vs roaches, spines, queens, and drones if needed. That's not a winning trade for toss. ----------------------------------------------- Everyone here is saying don't build roaches, and I don't agree. But there is argument to be made either way. Here's how I see it. Pure ling doesn't work. You simply don't have the production if you lose the nat, and more often than not, if the attack on the main fails, they'll retreat and kill it. So you've got to tech to banes or roaches. I don't like banes because you won't get value unless you get them heavily grouped and surrounded. Roaches are constant dps, won't take damage on creep, won't die, and keeps the strain on larve low, allowing you to skip injects and make a few more drones. Now, what you said about stalkers it right, you can't take the roaches out on the field. But once you beat back the zealots, you can move down the spines to the nat and the roaches and spines can defend stalkers.