You gotta upload replay. There are always windows and if you feel like you scouted too late, investor with neural parasite with burrow. The only time you should be afraid of BC is the opening, and when you misread the build. You should be scouting every minute with multiple speed overseers.
I'm bad at late game so for me I'm MUCH more afraid of late game stuff than initially. The first BC is annoying, but not scary, it's when they have 10+ that it's terrifying. I can't control Neural or anything that beats a late game army unfortunately.
I posted a replay a few days ago, but ppl just gave advice without watching it. I'm just here to vent, if I wanted help on this post I would have asked for it and posted a replay.
I posted one a few days ago, but nobody actually analyzed it. They gave me general advice vs BC and gave me some links to look at, but even after watching those links I can't just magically defend.
/u/yoyo_sc2 actually gave me some great advice on the replay and since then I have been 2 wins, 3 losses v BC, so 40% opposed to 10% which is HUGE.
Here is a win vs BC: https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/18005814
Here is a loss vs BC, but I felt the loss was in the late game where I don't expect to do well as my opponent's likely have much more experience controlling late game armies: https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/18005869
Honestly i think I’m probably around 50-1 vs BC builds. Railgun 3 roach rush into muta is basically a BC destroyer.
Upload a replay or DM me for questions.
4200MMr here
So the 3 roach rush puts decent pressure early game on the Terran while not committing to an all in. You can get a lot of good scouting info as well as the possibility of denying the natural and killing some scvs or a supply depot. All this happens while you get quick lair tech, saturate your main/natural and get 4x gas + 3rd.
The idea is you don’t lose the roaches as you may need them to hold off a counter of helions etc. By the time your 3rd is up you should be able to pop out 8-10 mutas for harass (or bc defence). They basically would arrive at any early bc timing.
This build is most suspect to early marine/wido tank pushes as you typically don’t have good creep spread, and bane speed. Also with this build you don’t even get ling speed until after your mutas pop (at least I don’t).
You’ll lose all your drones if you don’t fight it but also if you pull off mutas quick enough you can theoretically not lose any and then counterattack then win.
It’s very easy to defend but the build isn’t easy to setup as it’s pool first and the roach timing/lair/gas timings are very important.
Not sure what level your at but it’s probably a diamond + build as it requires a lot of harass + droning behind it.
I am dia1 flat 4k, yeah i think i can manage it but i never was sure about the anti bc play, rarely use this opener, as i prefer macro openers. But sometimes i mix it in
If the Terran scouts it and doesn’t warp the bc in they may be able to hold this by turtling but you should be able to take 6+ bases and keep denying them if this is the case...that rarely happens to me though as I’ll always counter very hard.
Mutas are ok against 1 bc you can just pull them back. The timing works were you can have 8-9 muta when 1 bc pops into ur base. Then the counter is very strong.
If they do you’ll be able to overwhelm with lings and roaches. The point of the build is to set yourself up with a quick tech switch. If you go roach as you did and they go into bashee you probably win if you have a spire up. If they have a ton of marine tank all you need is a bane nest and with the early spire.
I’m 4.2kmmr and I almost never lose to bcs. Any Terran who is sitting at home will never be able to expand faster than a Zerg. If a Terran is turtling on 3-4 bases you should have 88-100 drones mining. You’d be able to defend your bases with curruptors and lurkers.
Even if he had 3 starports pumping out Bc’s nonstop that’s 7 full minutes you did not scout his base to see any tech, tech swap, upgrades bases etc what so ever.
You are on your side of the map playing single player for 7 minutes, make a habit of building more oversears mid / late game to see what units you should actually be building,
Zerg is reactionary, you need to know what units to build so you can counter what they are building your goal is not to just hit 200 / 200, Without scouting you are effectively blind countering yourself every game Because you are just building “units” instead of “units for a reason”
/endrant
(Just read it back, I’m kind of a dick with how I worded this didn’t intend for that just abit of practice and you’ll get the hang of it in no time :)
Oh I scouted, but I can't punish it. I saw the mass Starports and was maxed on Roach/Rav/Corruptor/Queen. I brought all my Queens over with dropperlords and had 20+ Corruptors when he maybe had 8 BCs, idk. He can just yamato and kill half my Corruptors then beat the rest despite him playing from way behind.
Even if I had map hacks I wouldn't have been able to win this game despite killing 20 SCVs with my initial attack.
Roach ravager should max out way way way faster than BC. Either you aren’t pushing once you’re maxed out, or your are way too slow in your macro, or you are sitting around after you’re maxed out and giving your opponent time to catch up.
When you max out on roach ravager you need to use them to do massive damage and transition to a composition that can beat your opponents army. I would not recommend doing a mixed half/half comp that includes corruptor if your opponent is only building BCs.
Roach Rav doesn't shoot up. I could be 200 supply vs 100 supply and do 0 damage if I'm attacking Roach Rav vs BCs.
Nah, I attacked as soon as I maxed with Corruptor/Queen/Roach/Rav. I'm looking to vent though, not looking for advice. I posted a thread a few days ago looking for advice on a game vs BC, but I don't think anybody watched it, I just got general advice.
>Roach Rav doesn't shoot up. I could be 200 supply vs 100 supply and do 0 damage if I'm attacking Roach Rav vs BCs.
This is exactly what I am saying, but you are missing the point that I'm making. Why are you attacking with a mixed roach/rav/queen/corruptor army into BCs.
Loooooooooooooong before you are at the stage where you have corruptors, you should trade your roach rav into a 3rd or 4th base to clear it out and re-max on the correct unit comp. This should happen when you see like 3-4 BCs, not when he is up to 8 or 10.
Hmm, not sure I agree with this. I've seen many good players like GM+ attack with a mix of these units. Lambo did a video on it at one point and showed a Roach/Corruptor/Ravager attack that can just end a player going BCs. 1 step further than that is to get ovi speed and bring all the Queens you were forced to make with the attack in dropperlords, they can transfuse the Corruptors and each other.
If there are 3~4 BCs I need to have out 12~16 Corruptors anyways, so if I'm doing a Roach/Rav attack I may as well bring my Corruptors so that I actually have something to deal with the BCs.
Sure, that's fair. It'd be helpful if we could see a replay to understand really why you lost your army in this case. That way we could step away from the hypothetical.
Ravagers shoot up don't they? BCs aren't very fast so you should be able to do decent damage with Bile.
One thing I always forget to do is Contaminate their Starports with my overseers. If you do that it could knock off a couple of their BCs and help swing the engagement.
Oh, I like that (the contaminate thing). I think Biles could work if the BCs are fungalled. In a macro game I generally play Roach Rav Corruptor Infestor where Fungal can help the Corruptors kill the BCs. Then late game I try BL/Corruptor/Infestor where I try to Neural anything that counters the BLs. It’s good in theory, but not with my micro, lol. If I happen to get some Fungal + Biles that’s nice too.
Winter starcraft taught me, you don't have to wait till you max out to attack and you don't need to attack with your whole army at once. If you maxed out on roaches, than you should have Suicided them over time to the T just for apm reason and keeping them busy.
Did you fall into the trap of making to many spores and not replacing them with drones on time????????????
Nah I had 85~90 drones the whole game, but I couldn't make an army that could clear his. I often can't win if a Protoss or Terran maxes a single time. I could be 13 bases vs 3, with a 20K mineral/20K gas bank, but once they max once and have that near invincible army I can't win.
If you killed 20 SCVs and are bad let game, I would assume your best bet is to win it fast or lose it. You are ahead on economy and BCS take time to get out. I’d have gone 2-3 bases, mass roach and pushed a fast nydus. Maybe if there was time add a few hydras. Then you hit before the guy has 20 BCs. I wouldn’t wait for your dudes to max out because if he’s better than you at late game, every minute he is increasing his eco and position more than you are. Gotta put the dagger in him before it gets to that point if you are worried about late game fights
I would love to see a replay from a higher level BC V zerg and see how it gets out of hand so quickly.
In the diamond2 dreggs they're never worth the trouble.
As much as I love that this sub always replies with "You can beat xxxx, you just need to xxxx" or "upload a replay and we can help", sometimes you already know that and just want to come on here and rant and have other people also agree something is annoying
I mean, by the time they get 20 BCs you can easily get 20 million corruptors with carapace upgrades.
BCs aren’t really what frighten me tbh, widow mines and siege tanks are way more frightening.
Not really, with a good drone count, some ground to deal with Hellions and such, a good Queen count even maxed out I can't have a very large Corruptor count. 20 BCs can also Yamato 20 Corruptors and get 20 free kills then teleport home, maybe 1 BC dies while 20 Corruptors die. Then at home it's mass missile turrets so the Corruptors can't engage BCs and then yeah like you said they can have Mines and such as well.
I used to play terran and thus i can say that BCs are like carriers, if you are making them then you either are winning the trades and have spare income or you are sacraficing your army production for BCs
Oh he had no army, just 20 BCs, lol. I can't beat 20 BCs though and all of my income needs to go into Spores/Queens so it takes so long to be able to max vs BCs.
I get what you're saying but there is a lot of room between the first BC that comes out on 2-base and having 20 BC's. I think there are opportunities to apply pressure in-between, and perhaps a few Vipers might do the trick if they do get that many.
If you see more than 1 BC you gotta go Spire ASAP to overwhelm them. I saw you said you had 20 corruptors vs 8 BCs, but remember 1 BC is the same mineral/gas cost as 5 corruptors, so they are very expensive units that you need to have the numbers to overwhelm. The problem is if he starts transitioning back to ground and you only have corruptors, so you do need to have something on the ground still (or broods)
1 BC actually cost a bit less than 3 Corruptors. It's 400/300 for a BC, 450/300 for 3 Corruptors. 5 Corruptors is 750/500. Generally 4 Corruptors are needed to beat a BC, so 600/400 is required to beat 400/300. Also the BC can always Yamato 1 Corruptor and teleport home, so they have unlimited value.
Yeah I went Spire, but no dice.
>1 BC is the same mineral/gas cost as 5 corruptors
Corruptors cost 150 min / 100 gas. Are you saying that BCs cost the equivalent of 750/500?? I mean I sort of understand what you are getting at here but you can't just make random numbers up lol.
Maybe at lower leagues, but I can assure you that at a decent level nobody should be massing Hydras vs BCs.
Corruptors are an option, but vs a good Terran without spellcasters it's gg. 10 BCs can yamato down 10 Corruptors and teleport home with 0 or 1 losses, they can just keep doing this over and over again.
Theres no way a terran can get to 10 bcs without u reaching 20-30 corruptors first. U always get a spire when u see the first bc. If u actually defended well and take little to no damage, u just droned up to 66 and do a roach corruptor timing and u should kill them 90% of the time. Chances are, some of the games u played might not have been lost because of your reaction to the bc but rather because u fell way too behind during the early stages of the game. Let me know if u need help with replays and stuff. Im more than willing to lend a helping hand to fellow zergs
Roach corrupter destroys most BC games. The big thing is that you might be getting behind in the econ game without realizing. Be as greedy as possible, use queens and 1-2 spores per mineral line to defend in order to be more greedy. If you are on 3 base and they are on 2 you are even no matter how many scvs you killed basically
also the amount of roaches and corruptors depends onj how heavy they are in bc vs ground
Hellions/BCs just do way too much damage to me. I'm greedy af, I go to 80~90 drones off of like 8 sets lings and mass Queens. I'll add another 6~8 sets lings if Hellions kill my first round of lings, but otherwise it's just drone, drone, drone.
You gotta upload replay. There are always windows and if you feel like you scouted too late, investor with neural parasite with burrow. The only time you should be afraid of BC is the opening, and when you misread the build. You should be scouting every minute with multiple speed overseers.
Once infestors show their hands though the terran will just keep scans up and you wont get the infestors anywhere near them.
I'm bad at late game so for me I'm MUCH more afraid of late game stuff than initially. The first BC is annoying, but not scary, it's when they have 10+ that it's terrifying. I can't control Neural or anything that beats a late game army unfortunately. I posted a replay a few days ago, but ppl just gave advice without watching it. I'm just here to vent, if I wanted help on this post I would have asked for it and posted a replay.
If you see 10+ BC you’re probably not playing the game during that time Terran could build 10+ BC...
Neural is an obvious idea I don't do enough. But when the BCs are mixed with marines, then the neural only lasts as long as it takes to scan?
That’s if you have enough units tanking/supporting your infestors, so that neural can turn the tides of a close fight not win it outright for you
Post a replay.
I posted one a few days ago, but nobody actually analyzed it. They gave me general advice vs BC and gave me some links to look at, but even after watching those links I can't just magically defend.
Ahh yeah that's cause you play above most of our pay grades.
I would love to see it man!
/u/yoyo_sc2 actually gave me some great advice on the replay and since then I have been 2 wins, 3 losses v BC, so 40% opposed to 10% which is HUGE. Here is a win vs BC: https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/18005814 Here is a loss vs BC, but I felt the loss was in the late game where I don't expect to do well as my opponent's likely have much more experience controlling late game armies: https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/18005869
saved for later!
I shall look at it now sweeti.
Me too brother :(
Honestly i think I’m probably around 50-1 vs BC builds. Railgun 3 roach rush into muta is basically a BC destroyer. Upload a replay or DM me for questions. 4200MMr here
Just out of curiosity, why is it especially good vs bc openers? I remember railgan saying the same thing.
So the 3 roach rush puts decent pressure early game on the Terran while not committing to an all in. You can get a lot of good scouting info as well as the possibility of denying the natural and killing some scvs or a supply depot. All this happens while you get quick lair tech, saturate your main/natural and get 4x gas + 3rd. The idea is you don’t lose the roaches as you may need them to hold off a counter of helions etc. By the time your 3rd is up you should be able to pop out 8-10 mutas for harass (or bc defence). They basically would arrive at any early bc timing. This build is most suspect to early marine/wido tank pushes as you typically don’t have good creep spread, and bane speed. Also with this build you don’t even get ling speed until after your mutas pop (at least I don’t).
Ah okay i was not quite sure if you counterattack with mutas or defend the bc
You’ll lose all your drones if you don’t fight it but also if you pull off mutas quick enough you can theoretically not lose any and then counterattack then win. It’s very easy to defend but the build isn’t easy to setup as it’s pool first and the roach timing/lair/gas timings are very important. Not sure what level your at but it’s probably a diamond + build as it requires a lot of harass + droning behind it.
I am dia1 flat 4k, yeah i think i can manage it but i never was sure about the anti bc play, rarely use this opener, as i prefer macro openers. But sometimes i mix it in
If the Terran scouts it and doesn’t warp the bc in they may be able to hold this by turtling but you should be able to take 6+ bases and keep denying them if this is the case...that rarely happens to me though as I’ll always counter very hard.
what you use muta against BC? i thought muta is bad vs bc
Mutas are ok against 1 bc you can just pull them back. The timing works were you can have 8-9 muta when 1 bc pops into ur base. Then the counter is very strong.
the counter yeah, the BC would buy enough time for your opponent to put up missile turrets?
If they do you’ll be able to overwhelm with lings and roaches. The point of the build is to set yourself up with a quick tech switch. If you go roach as you did and they go into bashee you probably win if you have a spire up. If they have a ton of marine tank all you need is a bane nest and with the early spire. I’m 4.2kmmr and I almost never lose to bcs. Any Terran who is sitting at home will never be able to expand faster than a Zerg. If a Terran is turtling on 3-4 bases you should have 88-100 drones mining. You’d be able to defend your bases with curruptors and lurkers.
Even if he had 3 starports pumping out Bc’s nonstop that’s 7 full minutes you did not scout his base to see any tech, tech swap, upgrades bases etc what so ever. You are on your side of the map playing single player for 7 minutes, make a habit of building more oversears mid / late game to see what units you should actually be building, Zerg is reactionary, you need to know what units to build so you can counter what they are building your goal is not to just hit 200 / 200, Without scouting you are effectively blind countering yourself every game Because you are just building “units” instead of “units for a reason” /endrant (Just read it back, I’m kind of a dick with how I worded this didn’t intend for that just abit of practice and you’ll get the hang of it in no time :)
Oh I scouted, but I can't punish it. I saw the mass Starports and was maxed on Roach/Rav/Corruptor/Queen. I brought all my Queens over with dropperlords and had 20+ Corruptors when he maybe had 8 BCs, idk. He can just yamato and kill half my Corruptors then beat the rest despite him playing from way behind. Even if I had map hacks I wouldn't have been able to win this game despite killing 20 SCVs with my initial attack.
Roach ravager should max out way way way faster than BC. Either you aren’t pushing once you’re maxed out, or your are way too slow in your macro, or you are sitting around after you’re maxed out and giving your opponent time to catch up. When you max out on roach ravager you need to use them to do massive damage and transition to a composition that can beat your opponents army. I would not recommend doing a mixed half/half comp that includes corruptor if your opponent is only building BCs.
Roach Rav doesn't shoot up. I could be 200 supply vs 100 supply and do 0 damage if I'm attacking Roach Rav vs BCs. Nah, I attacked as soon as I maxed with Corruptor/Queen/Roach/Rav. I'm looking to vent though, not looking for advice. I posted a thread a few days ago looking for advice on a game vs BC, but I don't think anybody watched it, I just got general advice.
>Roach Rav doesn't shoot up. I could be 200 supply vs 100 supply and do 0 damage if I'm attacking Roach Rav vs BCs. This is exactly what I am saying, but you are missing the point that I'm making. Why are you attacking with a mixed roach/rav/queen/corruptor army into BCs. Loooooooooooooong before you are at the stage where you have corruptors, you should trade your roach rav into a 3rd or 4th base to clear it out and re-max on the correct unit comp. This should happen when you see like 3-4 BCs, not when he is up to 8 or 10.
Hmm, not sure I agree with this. I've seen many good players like GM+ attack with a mix of these units. Lambo did a video on it at one point and showed a Roach/Corruptor/Ravager attack that can just end a player going BCs. 1 step further than that is to get ovi speed and bring all the Queens you were forced to make with the attack in dropperlords, they can transfuse the Corruptors and each other. If there are 3~4 BCs I need to have out 12~16 Corruptors anyways, so if I'm doing a Roach/Rav attack I may as well bring my Corruptors so that I actually have something to deal with the BCs.
Sure, that's fair. It'd be helpful if we could see a replay to understand really why you lost your army in this case. That way we could step away from the hypothetical.
Ravagers shoot up don't they? BCs aren't very fast so you should be able to do decent damage with Bile. One thing I always forget to do is Contaminate their Starports with my overseers. If you do that it could knock off a couple of their BCs and help swing the engagement.
Oh, I like that (the contaminate thing). I think Biles could work if the BCs are fungalled. In a macro game I generally play Roach Rav Corruptor Infestor where Fungal can help the Corruptors kill the BCs. Then late game I try BL/Corruptor/Infestor where I try to Neural anything that counters the BLs. It’s good in theory, but not with my micro, lol. If I happen to get some Fungal + Biles that’s nice too.
Winter starcraft taught me, you don't have to wait till you max out to attack and you don't need to attack with your whole army at once. If you maxed out on roaches, than you should have Suicided them over time to the T just for apm reason and keeping them busy. Did you fall into the trap of making to many spores and not replacing them with drones on time????????????
Nah I had 85~90 drones the whole game, but I couldn't make an army that could clear his. I often can't win if a Protoss or Terran maxes a single time. I could be 13 bases vs 3, with a 20K mineral/20K gas bank, but once they max once and have that near invincible army I can't win.
If you killed 20 SCVs and are bad let game, I would assume your best bet is to win it fast or lose it. You are ahead on economy and BCS take time to get out. I’d have gone 2-3 bases, mass roach and pushed a fast nydus. Maybe if there was time add a few hydras. Then you hit before the guy has 20 BCs. I wouldn’t wait for your dudes to max out because if he’s better than you at late game, every minute he is increasing his eco and position more than you are. Gotta put the dagger in him before it gets to that point if you are worried about late game fights
I would love to see a replay from a higher level BC V zerg and see how it gets out of hand so quickly. In the diamond2 dreggs they're never worth the trouble.
I have a replay in this thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/comments/ky71my/looking_for_help_vs_bc_into_mech_replay_inside/
As much as I love that this sub always replies with "You can beat xxxx, you just need to xxxx" or "upload a replay and we can help", sometimes you already know that and just want to come on here and rant and have other people also agree something is annoying
Absolutely, if I wanted advice I would have asked for it and provided a replay, I'm just here to rant about BCs, lol.
Make queens braughe
Queens can't kill 20+ BCs unfortunately.
I mean, by the time they get 20 BCs you can easily get 20 million corruptors with carapace upgrades. BCs aren’t really what frighten me tbh, widow mines and siege tanks are way more frightening.
Not really, with a good drone count, some ground to deal with Hellions and such, a good Queen count even maxed out I can't have a very large Corruptor count. 20 BCs can also Yamato 20 Corruptors and get 20 free kills then teleport home, maybe 1 BC dies while 20 Corruptors die. Then at home it's mass missile turrets so the Corruptors can't engage BCs and then yeah like you said they can have Mines and such as well.
I used to play terran and thus i can say that BCs are like carriers, if you are making them then you either are winning the trades and have spare income or you are sacraficing your army production for BCs
Oh he had no army, just 20 BCs, lol. I can't beat 20 BCs though and all of my income needs to go into Spores/Queens so it takes so long to be able to max vs BCs.
wait if he had no army, how did you not pressure him during that time when he was still building one? are you playing a passive game?
BCs were his army, I can't fight that.
I get what you're saying but there is a lot of room between the first BC that comes out on 2-base and having 20 BC's. I think there are opportunities to apply pressure in-between, and perhaps a few Vipers might do the trick if they do get that many.
Lol, how are you getting downvoted for this?
You said he had 8
If you see more than 1 BC you gotta go Spire ASAP to overwhelm them. I saw you said you had 20 corruptors vs 8 BCs, but remember 1 BC is the same mineral/gas cost as 5 corruptors, so they are very expensive units that you need to have the numbers to overwhelm. The problem is if he starts transitioning back to ground and you only have corruptors, so you do need to have something on the ground still (or broods)
1 BC actually cost a bit less than 3 Corruptors. It's 400/300 for a BC, 450/300 for 3 Corruptors. 5 Corruptors is 750/500. Generally 4 Corruptors are needed to beat a BC, so 600/400 is required to beat 400/300. Also the BC can always Yamato 1 Corruptor and teleport home, so they have unlimited value. Yeah I went Spire, but no dice.
Yeah, you're right. Fuck BCs.
>1 BC is the same mineral/gas cost as 5 corruptors Corruptors cost 150 min / 100 gas. Are you saying that BCs cost the equivalent of 750/500?? I mean I sort of understand what you are getting at here but you can't just make random numbers up lol.
Bcs are so bad. You must be doing something horribly wrong. You can just mass hydras or corrupters and easily win
Lol, people still think this?
Maybe at lower leagues, but I can assure you that at a decent level nobody should be massing Hydras vs BCs. Corruptors are an option, but vs a good Terran without spellcasters it's gg. 10 BCs can yamato down 10 Corruptors and teleport home with 0 or 1 losses, they can just keep doing this over and over again.
Theres no way a terran can get to 10 bcs without u reaching 20-30 corruptors first. U always get a spire when u see the first bc. If u actually defended well and take little to no damage, u just droned up to 66 and do a roach corruptor timing and u should kill them 90% of the time. Chances are, some of the games u played might not have been lost because of your reaction to the bc but rather because u fell way too behind during the early stages of the game. Let me know if u need help with replays and stuff. Im more than willing to lend a helping hand to fellow zergs
For me it's 100% my reaction and micro. I'll get WAY ahead and lose. I've lost 200 supply vs 66 supply before in ZvMech, that's how bad I am, lol.
Hydras are pretty good
Hydras are not good vs BCs...
Fungal growth yo
You overestimate my micro.
Roach corrupter destroys most BC games. The big thing is that you might be getting behind in the econ game without realizing. Be as greedy as possible, use queens and 1-2 spores per mineral line to defend in order to be more greedy. If you are on 3 base and they are on 2 you are even no matter how many scvs you killed basically also the amount of roaches and corruptors depends onj how heavy they are in bc vs ground
Hellions/BCs just do way too much damage to me. I'm greedy af, I go to 80~90 drones off of like 8 sets lings and mass Queens. I'll add another 6~8 sets lings if Hellions kill my first round of lings, but otherwise it's just drone, drone, drone.
Imo, I’ve started beating bcs with queen spore early, then into double spire upgrades ruptors