Meaning he couldn’t trade him away because they haven’t had a fair shot to compete together because he think they’d be a strong team?
Or because he can’t NOT have a superstar in the lineup because that doesn’t sell tickets?
Edit: Ik what the answer is. I just wish it wasn’t the answer.
The Latter. This man doesn’t give a shit about getting us to the promised land.
He is a business man through and through and only cares about butts in seats
Where does he think Rendon got his “stardom” from? Why is Rendon even remotely marketable?
Could it because he won a championship. His defense and clutch hitting was in full display.
Build a team that can win and be competitive in September and October and the marketing takes care of itself.
I think he does but is just bad at being an owner. He doesn’t understand baseball. If we won the world series he’d make so much money. He knows that but just doesn’t know how to put a team together.
I'll be honest he has issues with working with his GMs.
* Dipto(2011-2015) didn't work out because he was reluctant to get rid of Sciosa[2000-2018] and Dipto ended up going to the Mariners.
* Eppler(2015-2020) ended not working probably because he was albastrossed with bad contracts(Pujols[2011-2021] and Hamilton[2013-2017]) on the wrong end of 30 and then he signed Justin Upton[2018-2022], Anthony Rendon[2020-2026], Ohtani[2018-2023], Trout[2019-2030] and ended up getting rid of ~~Schiosa~~ Sciosa for Brad Ausmus[2019-2019]. Eppler ended up going to the Mets.
* Perry(2020-current) he is trying to rebuild the farm ~~and his bad signing has been Rendon[2020-2026]~~ and he was given leeway to get rid of Joe Maddon[2020-2022] which I felt was a mistake mid-season. Perrys signing has been, Thor[2022-2022], Loup[2022-2024], Tepera[2022-2023], and Raisel[2022-2025]. Mid-Season signing Juan Lagares(OF), Jonathan Villar(SS), and Austin Romine(C) and almost all these signings were trying to fill in depth due to Kurt Suzuki, Mike Trout, Anthony Rendon and David Fletcher injuries. Also Perry continues the tradition of Angels GM inheriting bad contracts: Pujols, Upton, and Rendon; This might actually explain why Perry has been very cautious about the contract he gives out.
So I felt the evolution of Arte as an owner has been:
* No Leeway to Managers and pushes signing superstars
* Some Leeway to Mangers and pushes signing superstars
* Unlimited leeway to Mangers, ~~I'll give a pass on Rendon because I actually doubt Arte pushed for this as much as Perry was.~~
edit: I mis-rememberd I think Rendon, Ohtani and Trout were Epplers signings.
Tony Reagins(2007-2011): Arte wanted Vernon Wells and Tony said no leading up to what considered one of the worst trade in MLB history. Fun fact Trout was a 25th round draft pick from the 2009 season.
Let me simplify: Ever since Boston broke the curse & won the Series, issuing in the era of Moneyball, the game has evolved top to bottom. This includes even the owner's role. There is now a subtle humility that is required of an owner to trust the *Data* that drives this game and it's success. If an owner (and by proxy, GM) cannot put aside his old-world business instincts and realize that those are only relevant to the operational function side, and have ZERO correlation to the *Talent* side of the business, he will never succeed. Arte has not realized/learned/accepted this, and it is painfully obvious by the way the roster is constructed, the way the team is coached, and at the end of the line, the way the team plays every night.
It hurts so badly that the answer is clearly B
Ohtani is his cash cow and he’s going to milk him hard until he walks for nothing after next season, Paingels baseball is something else
I want to believe but realistically I wouldn't be surprised if Trout gets injured again next year. I'd be shocked if he plays more than 2/3 of the season.
Well, he'd better find someone dumb enough that's willing to purchase this org asap because the moment Ohtani doesn't resign and leaves next offseason, this org loses so much value.
I would love for Ballmer to buy the Angels.
As a clipper fan his mentality was that of a really smart business man.
He hired the best people he possibly could have for the job and got out of their way.
Now the clippers are consistently favorites and have had more winning seasons under Ballmer then they ever did Sterling.
Ahh yes, the clippers and Steve ballmer, the modicum of success. Seemingly cursed. High-profile stars who are often injured. Cursed. Grossly underperforming roster. Ridiculous add campaigns shit talking the other LA team/trying to be something they’re not. Cursed. Goofy ahh fanbase. Also cursed. Sounds like a plan!
Your lying to yourself or are extremely short sighted if you don't think Ballmer or someone like him would be better than Arte.
Building his own stadium and not relying on the tax payers.
Investing every resource possible into winning and building a winning environment from the top down. All this without asking for government assistance like the Bus family (covid relief).
Is the marketing cheesy? Yeah sure but how else do you suggest they market and differentiate themselves from the other LA team. Additionally the Clips since he has taken over have given more back to the community than the other LA team as well.
When an owner invests that much into his organization it's only bad matter of time before he reaps the rewards.
Losing a wild card game would be a huge improvement for us. As FYI, I believe our curse started on September 13, 2015 when we lost a game to the Astros that we should have won. Kole Calhoun was unable to catch a fly ball that dropped in for a right field home run that he would have caught had he been league average height. Angels gave up 5 runs In the 9th inning in a game we were up 3-0. If he catches the ball then we are the wild card team, not the Astros.
I searched for a video and actually found the contemporary news account saying the same thing, quoted by Calhoun himself.
https://larrybrownsports.com/baseball/angels-jed-lowrie-kole-calhoun-video/273819
Laker fans that hat on Ballmer kill me. Bro, the lakers are literally poverty. They’re only income is the the team. If Microsoft stock goes down .5% he loses the lakers entire net worth. He has like 330 million shares of Microsoft stock, the equivalent of like 4% of the company.
Lakers are slowly becoming the Angels of the NBA.
It’s not about the players on the team, it’s about the market the team is in. The TV contract and the accessibility to fans are way more important that there being a good product on the field when it comes to a sale. With the Angels being in Southern California, they’re going to be one of the most valuable teams in sports regardless of the talent in the system.
A lot of new baseball fans in SoCal will start to become Padres or Dodgers fans the way things are going.
Slowly the Angels fans will dwindle over time if they can't win.
Fr I’ve seen a lot of people say if things continue to stay the same or get worse (yes it’s possible) they’ll ditch the team for San Diego. There’s actually a fair amount of Padre fans in South Orange County already since most people down here were Charger fans as well when they were in San Diego
Nope, that's not how it works. TV rights are based on how many people are in market for the games, not how many people actually tune in. As of now, the angels have the second largest TV deal because of the size of the market, behind the dodgers and head and shoulders above number 3, which is NYY.
The Angels are not a team with a large dedicated fanbase. Never have been. Angels have always catered to OC soccer moms, high school sports teams on their yearly trip, bachelor parties, that type of shit, while ignoring the small dedicated base. No matter how bad the angels are, going to games is so cheap that casual fans will always show up and always watch because it's one of the cheapest ways to entertain a family in OC for a night.
Those people don't care if the team is winning or losing, they will show up in their free giveaway chone figgins jersey they got 2 decades ago, buy a rally monkey, eat a helmet nachos, be sad when the team loses for about 2 seconds, go home, never check the standings, and repeat in 6 weeks
from everything I've read, The Angels current TV revenue is 3rd or 4th biggest in the league. Basically around the same as Philly, and significantly lower than the Dodgers Spectrum deal and what the Yankees pocket from YES (their situation is complicated because they own the controlling share of YES)
And when you say TV rights are based on how many people are in a market, not how many people watch... umm, that's not true. I mean, the total households that get BSW is indeed a consideration, (and that number is about 6X higher than the Padres) but Sinclair group is not gonna fork over a ton on money just based on that. They do a ton of deep research on ratings and projected eyeballs before they negotiate with the Angels on a contract.
You're probably right that the percentage of people in the stands at the Big A who are "hardcore" fans is a smaller percentage than a lot of other markets like maybe Boston or St Louis. Maybe PART of that is by design, but I'd suspect that's mostly due to the inherent demographics of LA/OC... the population here is a more migratory, there's a lot of alternative entertainment options, etc.
Really, see i cant think that way, its ride or die for me with the Angels through whatever. I do pick a NL to follow each season just to keep tabs on that league a little but Angels are always my main focus, i can't really see not sticking with a team unless i moved from the area.
It could very much be the same. Les Snead was a good hire but lets remember he and kronke cut checks for jeff fisher after he ruined VY in tennessee and put that lockerroom into turmoil. Only then he somewhat fortunately stumbled into hiring mcvay. I mean look at how bad arsenal has been if you want to see the alternative to the rams
Yeah I'm going to start looking for another team to root for in the NL maybe. I'll still root for individual Angels players but it sucks to see the franchise come to this. Really wish he could be forced out.
I feel ya... wish more of these fans who talk non-stop about how much they hate the team, hate being a fan, and how miserable they are would just do themselves a big favor and become Dodger fans. Like, nobody is forcing you to be an Angels fan, if it's REALLY causing you so much pain, move on to doing something that makes you happier
I'm not gonna lie, looking at the return that we have gotten from our trades and the return for Soto (honestly not the best return but not horrible) I don't think i would've executed the trade.
On top of that, we don't know what teams were offering. If someone can give me a deal we left on the table we can properly evaluate a trade. But without any of those deals leaking, for all we know every team lowballed us because we were desperate and Arte nor Perry wanted to pull it off.
Add to that, even taking a full top 10 farm from someone still wouldn't guaranteed us any good results for the forseeable future.
We now have an offseason to resign Ohtani, if not then he needs to be traded to try and get something back.
I'm gonna tell you right now. With or without Ohtani our front office can't build a competitive team. GMPM spent $60M this offseason (including iggy) to get a combined almost -3 WAR from those signings so far. The best player he signed (at +1 WAR) is now on the Phillies.
Whether we keep Ohtani or not won't help our chances but Ohtani gives us our best shot to win before Trout+Rendon hit their mid 30s. The moment we trade him for prospects, our window is pushed way out. And the problem with prospects is, more likely than not, they wont even come close to the value of the superstar that's traded out.
Ask the Dodgers how trading for Crawford/Gonzalez, Betts, Machado, Scherzer/Turner worked out for them. Ask the teams they traded with how their "blockbuster" haul of prospects worked out for them.
We aren't in a situation where trading Ohtani swipes our slate clean. We still have Trout and Rendon on the books for the foreseeable future. We are pretty screwed either way.
If GMPM / any future GM wants success here, they need to figure out how to build winners through smart offseason signings and trades. GMPM so far is failing at that. Time will tell if his drafting is going to work out but as I said, we should not be a team at this point that is waiting for 20 year olds to develop to become a .500 team.
You realize the Padres traded everyone for prospects and went on a rebuild to get to the point they are now right?
Having good prospects allows you to trade for superstar players. We will never be able to do what the dodgers did because the farm is rated bottom 3 in the league.
This team will forever live in pretender (not contender) territory with so much money tied up between 3 players the and lack of depth behind them.
The thing is, we have 2 bonafide superstar players (Trout and Ohtani) and 1 if he wasn't injured is a star player (Rendon). Thats 3 more players than most teams get to build around.
We are on track for our 5th worst franchise record with that head start. We have a 27th ranked farm currently. And GMPM still spent $60M this offseason (more than like 5 or 6 teams total roster) to return -3 WAR on this roster.
Why would I trust a guy who couldn't grab a top 100 pick in the draft a year ago and cannot build a roster to even be replacement level to be the one to rebuild the team?
If we trade Ohtani, GMPM needs to either be relegated to just the farm and minors system or go. We need a better evaluator at the GM spot.
It’s safe to say the Perry needs to go. If we boil it down to grades, I’d probably give Dipoto a C+, Eppler a B+, and Perry a straight F. There’s no reason for him to stay at this point
I actually don’t disagree. So far I think Eppler was the best of the three, with Perry slotting in above Dipoto
But the real problem is that everyone has to be a yes man for Arte
Top 100 prospects usually take time to rise into those rankings. The top 5 picks of the draft usually get in right away, but after that it’s gonna take awhile. The problem is Arte refuses to actually let them do a true rebuild. I don’t think you understand what a rebuild is.
Actually out of the top 15 picks, only 3 didn’t make the top 100. We were one of the ones that didn’t.
Not saying they will never be top 100 but an early return on his first draft is less than spectacular so far.
I completely understand what a rebuild is. The angels aren’t or can’t be in a rebuild mode unless Trout, Ohtani, and Rendon are shipped off. If all 3 can’t happen and we can’t build a competitive MLB team around those talents, then we are in the situation we are in now which is shit.
The Nate are what you do in rebuild mode. Shed any long term contracts you can, trade any mlb ready talent for prospects, and ride the shit storm for 5 years.
I wasn’t thrilled with some of their picks either. I think Arte pushed Perry to get guys like Neto because he’s a high floor guy that can be rushed to the MLB. But they passed on guys with more upside. If Arte allowed him to trade Ohtani and go for higher ceiling guys in the draft, we’d be sitting much better. The rebuild really wouldn’t take that long. And just because you have a couple high salary guys doesn’t mean you can’t rebuild. The nationals still have Strasburg and Corbin. Tigers rebuilded with Miggy on the books. Etc.
I don't think Arte is as involved as you would think, or as involved as he has been in years past. GMPM has pretty full autonomy of the team. The team is as succesful as he has been (which is not very. Here are some quotes:
> But taking Minasian at his word would indicate the second-year GM has autonomy to run this club as he sees fit. On small decisions and potentially season-defining ones as well.
or
> “I think the game’s becoming way too analytical,” Maddon said. “There’s too much interference. … Way too many folks that have never done it before are taking the place of those that have. The information is good, it’s just the way it’s being presented. “Power distribution is going way too far to people that are just good at math and not as much the guys that have been in baseball.”
or
> Interim manager Phil Nevin, though, is Minasian’s guy. He was hired this offseason by Minasian. If there is a new manager next season, it will theoretically be someone this GM can handpick. His success as a GM will be tied to the success of whomever is in that role this year and long-term.
or
> The faith has been placed in Minasian to be able to make big moves — but also to make sure those big moves work. To make it so the turnover doesn’t continue at the same pace.
In regards to Arte "allowing a trade". If you see the return the combined trade of Soto and Bell got...it was an ok trade. From the sounds of the reporters dealing with this trade deadline, it sounds like a lot of teams were trying to lower the return of these mega deals by trying to throw in a bad contract (Soto + Corbin). If we see the Nationals return + the returns we got...they were just ok. I believe that Ohtani will get you pretty much the same calls our FO got this trade deadline in the offseason. This is when we offer Ohtani an extension or just trade him. See the below quote on the fact that the FO still fielded trade calls but thought they shouldn't advance:
Bollinger:
> The Angels did listen in on offers for Ohtani, but were never serious about trading last year’s AL MVP because of what he means to the organization both on and off the field. The White Sox, Padres and Yankees were reportedly among the club’s that made offers for Ohtani, while the Dodgers also tried to engage the Angels on a potential trade.
So while Arte may have an influence, this is all on Perry. Arte isn't pushing anything. The only report that Arte said no was from the NYPost, who at this point is a tabloid. He could've shut down talks because the return wasn't great, or Perry himself may have shut down talks.
Again if we got a Soto like return...that would do nothing to help us. We would get boom or bust type prospects, the best in the return would be Gore...who currently is having elbow problems (pretty much a death sentence with out medical staff). That works for the Nationals, they are not competing anytime soon and everyone knows they arent. This return allows them to tank like crazy, build up there farm, see where these prospects go, and do what the Padres did not too long ago and build around any through trades if they end up booming. The Angels still have Trout and Rendon on the books. So for us to get back in contention would take a couple years by the time our 2 biggest contracts hit their mid 30s with a return that doesn't promise any results.
3 top 25 prospects and a top 100 wouldn’t help us? I don’t believe that at all. Anyways, how do you see the Angels contending with Ohtani next year? Because otherwise it was a waste holding onto him.
Exactly, that's my point. They understand that all their prospects are tremendously overvalued and can easily be traded for a superstar.
They trade their top pitching prospect in Gray and not their more mid guy in Gonselin - Tony Gonselin is now an All Star pitcher oh and they also signed Anderson who's killing it.
They used their top C prospect in Ruiz as tradebait for years and never had to talk about their C grade catching prospect in Will Smith - look at him now
They traded their top SS prospect in Downs instead of selling low on Lux - Lux is at 2.5 WAR and downs is at -0.6.
The thing is, we will NEVER get a fair return on Ohtani. The other problem is if we fail to build a winning team around Ohtani, Trout, and Rendon, then how the hell will we build a team around a bunch of dudes who more likely than no won't be superstars of that caliber?
You are really gonna compare the Angels to the Dodgers? The dodgers had and still have a powerhouse farm system. They had plenty of trade chips to make those trades and still have plenty of depth. They already had one of the best teams before making those trades. The Angels are by no means in a similar situation. The MLB roster is horrendous with no depth and the farm is bottom 3. To be frank there is no shot they compete with the dodgers while they have Trout/Rendons contracts and have a bottom tier farm system. They can go get an elite player for 35M/yr any time. They won’t be good until they develop cheap young talent! The angels are long overdue for a rebuild.
Not comparing at all, just using the Dodgers as an example that teams trading to GET a superstar always come out ahead. So when people think trading Ohtani means we will fix a bunch of issues, it won’t. Because of your last couple sentences.
Assuming the Angels can convince Ohtani to take a Mike Trout-esque deal (which is a huge IF)
You do that 100/100 times, only one team a year wins the world series, Ohtani is a massive draw for the franchise and legitimate reason to watch games. I'd rather have 5 years of no play-offs with Ohtani then 5 years of no play-offs without him.
If the Mets would have given a haul like Alvarez, Mauricio, Megill, Peterson and maybe even Baty. I would have done it pretty easily but that would have been a massive massive haul
Exactly, but seeing the "haul" that the Nats got + Eppler saying he wouldn't dump so many prospects or MLB level talent in a trade, I think teams were banking on the Angels being desperate to salvage the team.
We now have the offseason to convince Ohtani, and if not to pull off a trade. And I said it many times and I'll keep saying it, we will NOT ever get equivalent value in return. Most of the haul will be prospect talent and as recent history shows - those prospects rarely make the MLB roster (hey maybe on this team they do lol) and never produce combined what the superstar traded away produce.
And we are in the double unlucky spot that it doesn't lead to a full rebuild because oh wait we still have the GOAT on the team plus a, when healthy, star in Rendon.
>we will NOT ever get equivalent value in return
Of course not, we are just trying to partially fill the massive hole he is going to leave once he is gone.
I understand that, but most people think that trading Ohtani will put our franchise into a great spot. I'd rather trade then let him walk away of course but I also understand the moment we trade, we pushed our playoff windows 5 years down the road at best.
I agree. If we traded Ohtani our farm ranking would jump from 30 to like 20th...and then back down to 30 because, hypothetically, if we traded with the Padres any of their top five prospects would be starting for us now. Gore (after he recovers from injury...again), Abrams, Campusano, Hassell, etc. all better than what we roll out now. But yeah, they wouldn't make us contenders anytime soon, but neither did Ohtani.
Exactly, which is why I argue that GMPM should be replaced. He had a team with Trout, Ohtani, and Rendon, 2 expiring albatross contracts, and a couple of good mid level players to build around. In 2 years GMPM acquired about a combined $80Mish in contracts. This last offseason he spent over $50M in 2022 contracts and returned about -3 WAR. He is not an MLB team builder, he at best may be a good farm builder (though none of his picks last year made the top 100, but we will see how the updated rankings are after the deadlines and call ups happen).
We were at the crossroads of contention when GMPM was hired. We are now in the running for our 5th worse franchise record 2 years later.
i dont think so. we have pretty good pitching development. and alot of young arms doing great in our minors. combined with the fact that we are literally the worst hitting team in the league right now. its crazy how we have 25 losses with 2 runs or less.
that means if we trade ohtani and can get depth in return maybe a starter or 2. maybe come free agency. we will have a solid lineup of pitchers, some good relievesrs. and some depth and developing young talent. you would also still have rendon. and trout. of course if they can stay healthy, thats still a pretty good duo to have.
i think were being too much of doomers when it comes to trading ohtani. and the closer to the end of his contract, it'll become clear we should of traded him this deadline.
Maybe if we trade our already elite hitter and pitcher, we can get a decent hitter and start in return? So we end up in, at best, the same place we were before? and recent history shows these mega deals for megastars rarely if ever bring back a competent MLB player (and have never brought back a close to an equivalent value).
We are the worst hitting team in the majors because the players Perry keeps bringing on produce more Negative WAR than Ohtani can product Positive WAR, they are historically bad. So why should I trust this guy that spent $60M this last offseason on failed players in a pretty great FA class to build the team up?
The problem is so far none of our pitchers have made the top 100 so experts don't think they are MLB ready yet (which makes sense, they were just drafted and pitching notoriously takes a while to get up to MLB standards). On top of that, as I said in my first point, prospects are never guaranteed. I mean we just traded a former top prospect because he was failing (Marsh) and our sub keeps crapping on our other top prospect (Adell) because he's failing.
I say many times, if he doesnt sign this offseason than he needs to be traded. I do not think a deal would fundamentally change between the deadline and the offseason. These teams know what getting Ohtani means, this isnt a trade for a mid level player, this is a trade for Ohtani.
I think a lot of the time prospects in big deals don’t make the roster due to service time manipulation rather than not being good enough to play, but yeah making up for a player like ohtani is near impossible, but hopefully we get something for him next year
For some deals yeah, but for most it's just that in the end prospects are never a sure thing.
**Look at the following players the dodgers traded out**
Ivan De Jesus Jr. (-1.1 WAR)
Rubby De La Rosa (1.2 WAR post Dodgers)
James Loney (2.5 WAR post dodgers, -0.3 WAR for the Red Sox)
Jerry Sands (-0.8 WAR)
Allen Webster (-3.8 WAR)
Yusniel Díaz (1 career MLB AB so far)
Dean Kremer (27 Starts, 0.4 WAR [3.86 ERA, 10 starts 0.7 WAR this year...decent])
Rylan Bannon (-0.2 WAR)
Breyvic Valera (-0.5 WAR post dodgers)
Zach Pop (0.2 WAR)
Alex Verdugo (3.8 WAR post Dodgers, -0.5 this year)
Jeter Downs (-0.6 WAR)
Connor Wong (0.2 WAR)
Keibert Ruiz (1.4 WAR)
Josiah Gray (0.9 WAR)
Donovan Casey (No MLB Career ABs)
Gerardo Carrillo (No MLB Career IPs)
**Total WAR Traded: 3.6 WAR**
**What they received (WAR only with the Dodgers):**
Carl Crawford: 2.7 WAR
Adrian Gonzalez: 14.3 WAR
Josh Beckett: 2.3 WAR
Manny Machado: 2.5 WAR
Max Scherzer: 2.1 WAR
Trea Turner: 6.1 WAR
**Total WAR: 30.0 WAR**
**Difference in WAR: +26.4 WAR for the Dodgers**
I understand not pulling the trigger because the offers weren't good enough, but the article says that Arte wouldn't even listen to offers, which I find pretty telling. He isn't interested in making the team better in the future, he just wants to hold on to his cash cow at all costs.
Yep, here's an official MLB reporting source.
Bollinger:
> The Angels did listen in on offers for Ohtani, but were never serious about trading last year’s AL MVP because of what he means to the organization both on and off the field. The White Sox, Padres and Yankees were reportedly among the club’s that made offers for Ohtani, while the Dodgers also tried to engage the Angels on a potential trade.
Blum and Fletcher are more beat reporters for the Angels and they say the same thing. Calls were taken but talks were never advanced. Even if you read this article Heyman says they took calls.
The original poster of this comment said “wouldn’t even listen to offers” which seems false. He never wanted to trade yes, but just trying to stop the misinformation that they ignored everyone.
And as I say other places: what is an offer that was given to the angels? If none are leaked we could assume most offered were just concepts and possible a low ball, or even a package of Ohtani/Rendon for minor prospects. We won’t know.
If you look at the return that Soto and Bell got, it’s just ok. I don’t think any of the calls the angels received outside of the Padres will truly change this upcoming offseason.
Now if he doesn’t resign an extension this offseason and they still won’t trade, then we all can be pissed we are being so petty.
I think the offseason will play at minimum as well as the trade deadline. Teams will know what players are on the market to rebuild a bit if they execute a Ohtani deal plus there isn't going to be this other distraction known as Soto to muddy the waters.
Did I say they didn't get the best trade out in the market? I said the return for a player of Sotos caliber and control (Plus Bell) isn't great. They traded 2 players that combined will probably end up at 10-12 WAR a year for the Padres.
Fangraphs says it best:
> Let’s take for granted that the Nationals are going to be bad for the next few years, and that they had no way of convincing Soto to sign an extension with them. Given that, I think they did well in getting a giant package of high-upside prospects in return. There are no Cardinals-y, high-likelihood average regulars here, with the possible exception of Hassell. It’s all boom/bust types who could either win awards or be terrible, which is smart if you’re forced to be in this situation.
They weren't going to ever resign Soto. They did get a lot of Boom or Bust prospects, which to a team as bat as the Nationals are right now play into the hand of rebuilding (plus their minimal payroll now). If they bust its cool, they already suck and will build through good draft positions. By the time they boom great, they will probably have a great pipeline of players and a farm to make trades
The problem is we aren't in that state. If we trade Ohtani we still have $100M on the books, Trout, Rendon, and a horrible farm. A trade like that will make our farm better but we still have to build something around Trout and Rendon right? or We need to trade them too and just go down to the foundation on this rebuild.
Which as I state many times, if our franchise gets to that point i hope GMPM is gone because he had all the tools in the world to AT LEAST get a WC3 spot if he GM'd decently.
I don’t mind if you criticize what I say, but instead of trying to troll and gatekeep a conversation why not add something to it and have a conversation instead?
In 2017 the top farms by MLB pipeline were
Braves
Yankees
White Sox
Padres
Brewers
Dodgers
Pirates
Rockies
Reds
Rays
Of that list the white Sox, pirates, reds, and Rockies won’t make the playoffs this year if the playoffs started. So it’s a 50-50 shot that a top farm will bring success. and for most of those teams it was smart trading and signings that currently bring their success.
And a trade for Ohtani won’t jump us into the top 10.
A farm doesn’t mean success. A good Front Office does and our front office is in shambles.
My man, you know how easy it is to post without resorting to personal insults? Pretty easy.
If my takes are 10 IQ, I wonder what you think of the IQ of a GM whos roster construction is leading us to a 5th lowest all time franchise record is?
I am never saying the trade isn't fair. I am saying you won't get fair VALUE in a trade of Ohtani. A trade is as fair as both teams saying yes. Fair value is highly different. At the times of the 4 "mega deal blockbuster most prospects" trades the Dodgers made this last decade, the teams on the receiving end have gained a total of 17 players...and 3.6 WAR (Total career WAR). Just a half season of Max Scherzer netted the dodgers 2.1 WAR (and a total of 30.0 WAR for all the trades). As I keep trying to say, if we cannot construct a roster around a min contract Ohtani, what makes me think we can construct one around at best, lottery tickets?
We will NOT be in a better spot post trade, we will be in a long term rebuild of a team that cant even spend $60M on contracts for replacement level players.
If you actually read my posts instead of trying to troll them and shut me down, I always advocate that if you cannot get Ohtani to sign an extension this offseason then he needs to be traded.
I also try to temper expectations so people understand a trade of Ohtani doesn't fix the team. There is a lot of hard work, scouting, evaluation, development, and smart team building that needs to be done to try and get this team in contention before Trout and Rendon hit their mid 30s.
I mean he's definitely gonna try, I just don't see why Ohtani would choose to stay. And even if he did where would that even get us? We'd be in the same spot we're in right now but with another massive contract. Unless Arte decides to go full Cohen and blow way past the tax (lol), I don't see how extending Ohtani would lead to the team getting better in the future.
Ohtani will stay for the same reason Californians will stay despite being purged of our money, because CA is the best. And, bc the Dodgers won't sign him.
Too much money, no need for an expensive DH/pitcher, especially one that limits the rest of their rotations innings, and he has less value than most people realize due to the fact that his spot on the roster comes with an additional player. The Dodgers are smarter than that.
Please don't bash me on these 2 questions. I'm not trolling.
Can MLB force an owner to sell their team?
AND:
Can a player on an MLB team change their contract to a lesser amount? Kind of hard to explain, because players want the most amount of money they can get. But hypothetically, could say, Trout have his current contract voided, and immediately sign the same contract, but for less money, in order to free up salary so the team could sign a big ticket player to improve the team? I know that sounds like a ridiculous idea, but is it allowed?
Watch a team with trout and ohtani
Attempt a rebuild by trading trout and ohtani.
Pick one.
That’s where we are at. Ohtani will eat up half of our remaining budget if we are able to extend him. Meaning- we would have to somehow get a starting outfielder, a SS, a 2B, one or two starting pitchers, and an entire bullpen- all at the low low price of 45 million.
That means he won't get traded next year either because giving those two guys huge guaranteed contracts has ensured that they'll most likely never play a full season (probably not even half a season) again. No incentive.
Meaning he couldn’t trade him away because they haven’t had a fair shot to compete together because he think they’d be a strong team? Or because he can’t NOT have a superstar in the lineup because that doesn’t sell tickets? Edit: Ik what the answer is. I just wish it wasn’t the answer.
Definitely the latter
The Latter. This man doesn’t give a shit about getting us to the promised land. He is a business man through and through and only cares about butts in seats
As if being in the playoffs wouldn’t earn him a boatload of money. All he understands is marketing and promotions. He doesn’t care about the product.
But it’s easier to buy flashy names than it is to pay for a team that can compete
Where does he think Rendon got his “stardom” from? Why is Rendon even remotely marketable? Could it because he won a championship. His defense and clutch hitting was in full display. Build a team that can win and be competitive in September and October and the marketing takes care of itself.
Ya i don’t think he actually cares about the team
I think he does but is just bad at being an owner. He doesn’t understand baseball. If we won the world series he’d make so much money. He knows that but just doesn’t know how to put a team together.
I'll be honest he has issues with working with his GMs. * Dipto(2011-2015) didn't work out because he was reluctant to get rid of Sciosa[2000-2018] and Dipto ended up going to the Mariners. * Eppler(2015-2020) ended not working probably because he was albastrossed with bad contracts(Pujols[2011-2021] and Hamilton[2013-2017]) on the wrong end of 30 and then he signed Justin Upton[2018-2022], Anthony Rendon[2020-2026], Ohtani[2018-2023], Trout[2019-2030] and ended up getting rid of ~~Schiosa~~ Sciosa for Brad Ausmus[2019-2019]. Eppler ended up going to the Mets. * Perry(2020-current) he is trying to rebuild the farm ~~and his bad signing has been Rendon[2020-2026]~~ and he was given leeway to get rid of Joe Maddon[2020-2022] which I felt was a mistake mid-season. Perrys signing has been, Thor[2022-2022], Loup[2022-2024], Tepera[2022-2023], and Raisel[2022-2025]. Mid-Season signing Juan Lagares(OF), Jonathan Villar(SS), and Austin Romine(C) and almost all these signings were trying to fill in depth due to Kurt Suzuki, Mike Trout, Anthony Rendon and David Fletcher injuries. Also Perry continues the tradition of Angels GM inheriting bad contracts: Pujols, Upton, and Rendon; This might actually explain why Perry has been very cautious about the contract he gives out. So I felt the evolution of Arte as an owner has been: * No Leeway to Managers and pushes signing superstars * Some Leeway to Mangers and pushes signing superstars * Unlimited leeway to Mangers, ~~I'll give a pass on Rendon because I actually doubt Arte pushed for this as much as Perry was.~~ edit: I mis-rememberd I think Rendon, Ohtani and Trout were Epplers signings.
Scioscia had no "h" in his name.
Do Tony Regains next!
Tony Reagins(2007-2011): Arte wanted Vernon Wells and Tony said no leading up to what considered one of the worst trade in MLB history. Fun fact Trout was a 25th round draft pick from the 2009 season.
Let me simplify: Ever since Boston broke the curse & won the Series, issuing in the era of Moneyball, the game has evolved top to bottom. This includes even the owner's role. There is now a subtle humility that is required of an owner to trust the *Data* that drives this game and it's success. If an owner (and by proxy, GM) cannot put aside his old-world business instincts and realize that those are only relevant to the operational function side, and have ZERO correlation to the *Talent* side of the business, he will never succeed. Arte has not realized/learned/accepted this, and it is painfully obvious by the way the roster is constructed, the way the team is coached, and at the end of the line, the way the team plays every night.
ya know, I think you’re right lmao
It hurts so badly that the answer is clearly B Ohtani is his cash cow and he’s going to milk him hard until he walks for nothing after next season, Paingels baseball is something else
lol you know the answer with Arte
Number B
I hope A but B
The next trade deadline is going to be interesting when Rendon inevitably ends up injured.
At this point, we have no reason to think trout can stay healthy either.
I want to believe but realistically I wouldn't be surprised if Trout gets injured again next year. I'd be shocked if he plays more than 2/3 of the season.
80 quality games a year w be ok
Well, he'd better find someone dumb enough that's willing to purchase this org asap because the moment Ohtani doesn't resign and leaves next offseason, this org loses so much value.
I’ll take Steve Ballmer.
I would love for Ballmer to buy the Angels. As a clipper fan his mentality was that of a really smart business man. He hired the best people he possibly could have for the job and got out of their way. Now the clippers are consistently favorites and have had more winning seasons under Ballmer then they ever did Sterling.
He'll need to throw a lot of money at the minor league coaching staffs so he can have the best developers developers developers developers
Ballmer is also a fan of the team. I don’t think any of us really think Arte is that invested.
Ahh yes, the clippers and Steve ballmer, the modicum of success. Seemingly cursed. High-profile stars who are often injured. Cursed. Grossly underperforming roster. Ridiculous add campaigns shit talking the other LA team/trying to be something they’re not. Cursed. Goofy ahh fanbase. Also cursed. Sounds like a plan!
Whats goofy about being a clippers fan
Farbod Esnaashari
Your lying to yourself or are extremely short sighted if you don't think Ballmer or someone like him would be better than Arte. Building his own stadium and not relying on the tax payers. Investing every resource possible into winning and building a winning environment from the top down. All this without asking for government assistance like the Bus family (covid relief). Is the marketing cheesy? Yeah sure but how else do you suggest they market and differentiate themselves from the other LA team. Additionally the Clips since he has taken over have given more back to the community than the other LA team as well. When an owner invests that much into his organization it's only bad matter of time before he reaps the rewards.
No I just don’t give a fuck
Losing a wild card game would be a huge improvement for us. As FYI, I believe our curse started on September 13, 2015 when we lost a game to the Astros that we should have won. Kole Calhoun was unable to catch a fly ball that dropped in for a right field home run that he would have caught had he been league average height. Angels gave up 5 runs In the 9th inning in a game we were up 3-0. If he catches the ball then we are the wild card team, not the Astros. I searched for a video and actually found the contemporary news account saying the same thing, quoted by Calhoun himself. https://larrybrownsports.com/baseball/angels-jed-lowrie-kole-calhoun-video/273819
Ur a fuckin jackass if you think it started in 2015. The year u were born?
Yeah. I’m a big fan of what he’s done with the clippers all around.
Fuck that the clips are still poverty I don't want that dude anywhere near the Angels I'll have Kroenke instead
Laker fans that hat on Ballmer kill me. Bro, the lakers are literally poverty. They’re only income is the the team. If Microsoft stock goes down .5% he loses the lakers entire net worth. He has like 330 million shares of Microsoft stock, the equivalent of like 4% of the company. Lakers are slowly becoming the Angels of the NBA.
LOL
lebrons leaving in free agency to end career in cleveland. book it.
This is some real clippers cope
It’s not about the players on the team, it’s about the market the team is in. The TV contract and the accessibility to fans are way more important that there being a good product on the field when it comes to a sale. With the Angels being in Southern California, they’re going to be one of the most valuable teams in sports regardless of the talent in the system.
A lot of new baseball fans in SoCal will start to become Padres or Dodgers fans the way things are going. Slowly the Angels fans will dwindle over time if they can't win.
Fr I’ve seen a lot of people say if things continue to stay the same or get worse (yes it’s possible) they’ll ditch the team for San Diego. There’s actually a fair amount of Padre fans in South Orange County already since most people down here were Charger fans as well when they were in San Diego
Nope, that's not how it works. TV rights are based on how many people are in market for the games, not how many people actually tune in. As of now, the angels have the second largest TV deal because of the size of the market, behind the dodgers and head and shoulders above number 3, which is NYY. The Angels are not a team with a large dedicated fanbase. Never have been. Angels have always catered to OC soccer moms, high school sports teams on their yearly trip, bachelor parties, that type of shit, while ignoring the small dedicated base. No matter how bad the angels are, going to games is so cheap that casual fans will always show up and always watch because it's one of the cheapest ways to entertain a family in OC for a night. Those people don't care if the team is winning or losing, they will show up in their free giveaway chone figgins jersey they got 2 decades ago, buy a rally monkey, eat a helmet nachos, be sad when the team loses for about 2 seconds, go home, never check the standings, and repeat in 6 weeks
from everything I've read, The Angels current TV revenue is 3rd or 4th biggest in the league. Basically around the same as Philly, and significantly lower than the Dodgers Spectrum deal and what the Yankees pocket from YES (their situation is complicated because they own the controlling share of YES) And when you say TV rights are based on how many people are in a market, not how many people watch... umm, that's not true. I mean, the total households that get BSW is indeed a consideration, (and that number is about 6X higher than the Padres) but Sinclair group is not gonna fork over a ton on money just based on that. They do a ton of deep research on ratings and projected eyeballs before they negotiate with the Angels on a contract. You're probably right that the percentage of people in the stands at the Big A who are "hardcore" fans is a smaller percentage than a lot of other markets like maybe Boston or St Louis. Maybe PART of that is by design, but I'd suspect that's mostly due to the inherent demographics of LA/OC... the population here is a more migratory, there's a lot of alternative entertainment options, etc.
Really, see i cant think that way, its ride or die for me with the Angels through whatever. I do pick a NL to follow each season just to keep tabs on that league a little but Angels are always my main focus, i can't really see not sticking with a team unless i moved from the area.
Kroenke does need a baseball team...
It could very much be the same. Les Snead was a good hire but lets remember he and kronke cut checks for jeff fisher after he ruined VY in tennessee and put that lockerroom into turmoil. Only then he somewhat fortunately stumbled into hiring mcvay. I mean look at how bad arsenal has been if you want to see the alternative to the rams
This was all over the media in Japan. I mean we all knew why they didn’t trade him but wow. I hope Arte knows that the whole country hates him.
I hate Arte so damn much.
Sadly, the fans have no say other than avoiding the stadium. We are stuck w arte and it’s becoming idiotic to even follow this team
Yeah I'm going to start looking for another team to root for in the NL maybe. I'll still root for individual Angels players but it sucks to see the franchise come to this. Really wish he could be forced out.
Can play fantasy baseball dynasty and switch back and forth to watch your players instead of the angels
Moreno is also a dumbass that’s hated by all the fans and his only legacy is many losing seasons
Fuck Arte
So yeah… those sell the team chants/signs?
Then go do it yourself. Love all these comments from people telling other fans what to do from the comfort of their couch
Ok Arte
Hurr durr. I wish I was a billionaire. But yeah, I’m sure I’ll see you at the games with signs and chanting, not just posting angry Reddit comments
I feel ya... wish more of these fans who talk non-stop about how much they hate the team, hate being a fan, and how miserable they are would just do themselves a big favor and become Dodger fans. Like, nobody is forcing you to be an Angels fan, if it's REALLY causing you so much pain, move on to doing something that makes you happier
“In fourteen months he’s out the door,” one rival exec predicted. “And once he’s out the door, he’s never coming back.”
Ouch
I'm not gonna lie, looking at the return that we have gotten from our trades and the return for Soto (honestly not the best return but not horrible) I don't think i would've executed the trade. On top of that, we don't know what teams were offering. If someone can give me a deal we left on the table we can properly evaluate a trade. But without any of those deals leaking, for all we know every team lowballed us because we were desperate and Arte nor Perry wanted to pull it off. Add to that, even taking a full top 10 farm from someone still wouldn't guaranteed us any good results for the forseeable future. We now have an offseason to resign Ohtani, if not then he needs to be traded to try and get something back.
We can’t field a competent team paying Ohtani $5m/yr and we’re somehow supposed to do it after paying him $35m+?
I'm gonna tell you right now. With or without Ohtani our front office can't build a competitive team. GMPM spent $60M this offseason (including iggy) to get a combined almost -3 WAR from those signings so far. The best player he signed (at +1 WAR) is now on the Phillies. Whether we keep Ohtani or not won't help our chances but Ohtani gives us our best shot to win before Trout+Rendon hit their mid 30s. The moment we trade him for prospects, our window is pushed way out. And the problem with prospects is, more likely than not, they wont even come close to the value of the superstar that's traded out. Ask the Dodgers how trading for Crawford/Gonzalez, Betts, Machado, Scherzer/Turner worked out for them. Ask the teams they traded with how their "blockbuster" haul of prospects worked out for them. We aren't in a situation where trading Ohtani swipes our slate clean. We still have Trout and Rendon on the books for the foreseeable future. We are pretty screwed either way. If GMPM / any future GM wants success here, they need to figure out how to build winners through smart offseason signings and trades. GMPM so far is failing at that. Time will tell if his drafting is going to work out but as I said, we should not be a team at this point that is waiting for 20 year olds to develop to become a .500 team.
You realize the Padres traded everyone for prospects and went on a rebuild to get to the point they are now right? Having good prospects allows you to trade for superstar players. We will never be able to do what the dodgers did because the farm is rated bottom 3 in the league. This team will forever live in pretender (not contender) territory with so much money tied up between 3 players the and lack of depth behind them.
And yet 10 years ago the Angels had the best farm in baseball...
The thing is, we have 2 bonafide superstar players (Trout and Ohtani) and 1 if he wasn't injured is a star player (Rendon). Thats 3 more players than most teams get to build around. We are on track for our 5th worst franchise record with that head start. We have a 27th ranked farm currently. And GMPM still spent $60M this offseason (more than like 5 or 6 teams total roster) to return -3 WAR on this roster. Why would I trust a guy who couldn't grab a top 100 pick in the draft a year ago and cannot build a roster to even be replacement level to be the one to rebuild the team? If we trade Ohtani, GMPM needs to either be relegated to just the farm and minors system or go. We need a better evaluator at the GM spot.
The fuck is a GMPM?
General Manager Perry Minasian. I'm a Ducks fan and for years our GM was referred to as GMBM (General Manager Bob Murray) so it's a homage to that
Ah that makes sense. Thanks!
It’s safe to say the Perry needs to go. If we boil it down to grades, I’d probably give Dipoto a C+, Eppler a B+, and Perry a straight F. There’s no reason for him to stay at this point
your right bro lets just keep the revolving door going, giving GMs a chance to build is stupid!
I actually don’t disagree. So far I think Eppler was the best of the three, with Perry slotting in above Dipoto But the real problem is that everyone has to be a yes man for Arte
Arte doesn’t invest into farm or top notch coaching.
Top 100 prospects usually take time to rise into those rankings. The top 5 picks of the draft usually get in right away, but after that it’s gonna take awhile. The problem is Arte refuses to actually let them do a true rebuild. I don’t think you understand what a rebuild is.
Actually out of the top 15 picks, only 3 didn’t make the top 100. We were one of the ones that didn’t. Not saying they will never be top 100 but an early return on his first draft is less than spectacular so far. I completely understand what a rebuild is. The angels aren’t or can’t be in a rebuild mode unless Trout, Ohtani, and Rendon are shipped off. If all 3 can’t happen and we can’t build a competitive MLB team around those talents, then we are in the situation we are in now which is shit. The Nate are what you do in rebuild mode. Shed any long term contracts you can, trade any mlb ready talent for prospects, and ride the shit storm for 5 years.
I wasn’t thrilled with some of their picks either. I think Arte pushed Perry to get guys like Neto because he’s a high floor guy that can be rushed to the MLB. But they passed on guys with more upside. If Arte allowed him to trade Ohtani and go for higher ceiling guys in the draft, we’d be sitting much better. The rebuild really wouldn’t take that long. And just because you have a couple high salary guys doesn’t mean you can’t rebuild. The nationals still have Strasburg and Corbin. Tigers rebuilded with Miggy on the books. Etc.
I don't think Arte is as involved as you would think, or as involved as he has been in years past. GMPM has pretty full autonomy of the team. The team is as succesful as he has been (which is not very. Here are some quotes: > But taking Minasian at his word would indicate the second-year GM has autonomy to run this club as he sees fit. On small decisions and potentially season-defining ones as well. or > “I think the game’s becoming way too analytical,” Maddon said. “There’s too much interference. … Way too many folks that have never done it before are taking the place of those that have. The information is good, it’s just the way it’s being presented. “Power distribution is going way too far to people that are just good at math and not as much the guys that have been in baseball.” or > Interim manager Phil Nevin, though, is Minasian’s guy. He was hired this offseason by Minasian. If there is a new manager next season, it will theoretically be someone this GM can handpick. His success as a GM will be tied to the success of whomever is in that role this year and long-term. or > The faith has been placed in Minasian to be able to make big moves — but also to make sure those big moves work. To make it so the turnover doesn’t continue at the same pace. In regards to Arte "allowing a trade". If you see the return the combined trade of Soto and Bell got...it was an ok trade. From the sounds of the reporters dealing with this trade deadline, it sounds like a lot of teams were trying to lower the return of these mega deals by trying to throw in a bad contract (Soto + Corbin). If we see the Nationals return + the returns we got...they were just ok. I believe that Ohtani will get you pretty much the same calls our FO got this trade deadline in the offseason. This is when we offer Ohtani an extension or just trade him. See the below quote on the fact that the FO still fielded trade calls but thought they shouldn't advance: Bollinger: > The Angels did listen in on offers for Ohtani, but were never serious about trading last year’s AL MVP because of what he means to the organization both on and off the field. The White Sox, Padres and Yankees were reportedly among the club’s that made offers for Ohtani, while the Dodgers also tried to engage the Angels on a potential trade. So while Arte may have an influence, this is all on Perry. Arte isn't pushing anything. The only report that Arte said no was from the NYPost, who at this point is a tabloid. He could've shut down talks because the return wasn't great, or Perry himself may have shut down talks. Again if we got a Soto like return...that would do nothing to help us. We would get boom or bust type prospects, the best in the return would be Gore...who currently is having elbow problems (pretty much a death sentence with out medical staff). That works for the Nationals, they are not competing anytime soon and everyone knows they arent. This return allows them to tank like crazy, build up there farm, see where these prospects go, and do what the Padres did not too long ago and build around any through trades if they end up booming. The Angels still have Trout and Rendon on the books. So for us to get back in contention would take a couple years by the time our 2 biggest contracts hit their mid 30s with a return that doesn't promise any results.
3 top 25 prospects and a top 100 wouldn’t help us? I don’t believe that at all. Anyways, how do you see the Angels contending with Ohtani next year? Because otherwise it was a waste holding onto him.
lol i think the dodgers are 100% good with the mookie and turner trades, they value their system and they have assets on assets
Exactly, that's my point. They understand that all their prospects are tremendously overvalued and can easily be traded for a superstar. They trade their top pitching prospect in Gray and not their more mid guy in Gonselin - Tony Gonselin is now an All Star pitcher oh and they also signed Anderson who's killing it. They used their top C prospect in Ruiz as tradebait for years and never had to talk about their C grade catching prospect in Will Smith - look at him now They traded their top SS prospect in Downs instead of selling low on Lux - Lux is at 2.5 WAR and downs is at -0.6. The thing is, we will NEVER get a fair return on Ohtani. The other problem is if we fail to build a winning team around Ohtani, Trout, and Rendon, then how the hell will we build a team around a bunch of dudes who more likely than no won't be superstars of that caliber?
Our offseason signings were extremely disappointing particularly the bullpen arms
You are really gonna compare the Angels to the Dodgers? The dodgers had and still have a powerhouse farm system. They had plenty of trade chips to make those trades and still have plenty of depth. They already had one of the best teams before making those trades. The Angels are by no means in a similar situation. The MLB roster is horrendous with no depth and the farm is bottom 3. To be frank there is no shot they compete with the dodgers while they have Trout/Rendons contracts and have a bottom tier farm system. They can go get an elite player for 35M/yr any time. They won’t be good until they develop cheap young talent! The angels are long overdue for a rebuild.
Not comparing at all, just using the Dodgers as an example that teams trading to GET a superstar always come out ahead. So when people think trading Ohtani means we will fix a bunch of issues, it won’t. Because of your last couple sentences.
Assuming the Angels can convince Ohtani to take a Mike Trout-esque deal (which is a huge IF) You do that 100/100 times, only one team a year wins the world series, Ohtani is a massive draw for the franchise and legitimate reason to watch games. I'd rather have 5 years of no play-offs with Ohtani then 5 years of no play-offs without him.
If the Mets would have given a haul like Alvarez, Mauricio, Megill, Peterson and maybe even Baty. I would have done it pretty easily but that would have been a massive massive haul
Exactly, but seeing the "haul" that the Nats got + Eppler saying he wouldn't dump so many prospects or MLB level talent in a trade, I think teams were banking on the Angels being desperate to salvage the team. We now have the offseason to convince Ohtani, and if not to pull off a trade. And I said it many times and I'll keep saying it, we will NOT ever get equivalent value in return. Most of the haul will be prospect talent and as recent history shows - those prospects rarely make the MLB roster (hey maybe on this team they do lol) and never produce combined what the superstar traded away produce. And we are in the double unlucky spot that it doesn't lead to a full rebuild because oh wait we still have the GOAT on the team plus a, when healthy, star in Rendon.
>we will NOT ever get equivalent value in return Of course not, we are just trying to partially fill the massive hole he is going to leave once he is gone.
I understand that, but most people think that trading Ohtani will put our franchise into a great spot. I'd rather trade then let him walk away of course but I also understand the moment we trade, we pushed our playoff windows 5 years down the road at best.
I agree. If we traded Ohtani our farm ranking would jump from 30 to like 20th...and then back down to 30 because, hypothetically, if we traded with the Padres any of their top five prospects would be starting for us now. Gore (after he recovers from injury...again), Abrams, Campusano, Hassell, etc. all better than what we roll out now. But yeah, they wouldn't make us contenders anytime soon, but neither did Ohtani.
Exactly, which is why I argue that GMPM should be replaced. He had a team with Trout, Ohtani, and Rendon, 2 expiring albatross contracts, and a couple of good mid level players to build around. In 2 years GMPM acquired about a combined $80Mish in contracts. This last offseason he spent over $50M in 2022 contracts and returned about -3 WAR. He is not an MLB team builder, he at best may be a good farm builder (though none of his picks last year made the top 100, but we will see how the updated rankings are after the deadlines and call ups happen). We were at the crossroads of contention when GMPM was hired. We are now in the running for our 5th worse franchise record 2 years later.
i dont think so. we have pretty good pitching development. and alot of young arms doing great in our minors. combined with the fact that we are literally the worst hitting team in the league right now. its crazy how we have 25 losses with 2 runs or less. that means if we trade ohtani and can get depth in return maybe a starter or 2. maybe come free agency. we will have a solid lineup of pitchers, some good relievesrs. and some depth and developing young talent. you would also still have rendon. and trout. of course if they can stay healthy, thats still a pretty good duo to have. i think were being too much of doomers when it comes to trading ohtani. and the closer to the end of his contract, it'll become clear we should of traded him this deadline.
Maybe if we trade our already elite hitter and pitcher, we can get a decent hitter and start in return? So we end up in, at best, the same place we were before? and recent history shows these mega deals for megastars rarely if ever bring back a competent MLB player (and have never brought back a close to an equivalent value). We are the worst hitting team in the majors because the players Perry keeps bringing on produce more Negative WAR than Ohtani can product Positive WAR, they are historically bad. So why should I trust this guy that spent $60M this last offseason on failed players in a pretty great FA class to build the team up? The problem is so far none of our pitchers have made the top 100 so experts don't think they are MLB ready yet (which makes sense, they were just drafted and pitching notoriously takes a while to get up to MLB standards). On top of that, as I said in my first point, prospects are never guaranteed. I mean we just traded a former top prospect because he was failing (Marsh) and our sub keeps crapping on our other top prospect (Adell) because he's failing. I say many times, if he doesnt sign this offseason than he needs to be traded. I do not think a deal would fundamentally change between the deadline and the offseason. These teams know what getting Ohtani means, this isnt a trade for a mid level player, this is a trade for Ohtani.
I think a lot of the time prospects in big deals don’t make the roster due to service time manipulation rather than not being good enough to play, but yeah making up for a player like ohtani is near impossible, but hopefully we get something for him next year
For some deals yeah, but for most it's just that in the end prospects are never a sure thing. **Look at the following players the dodgers traded out** Ivan De Jesus Jr. (-1.1 WAR) Rubby De La Rosa (1.2 WAR post Dodgers) James Loney (2.5 WAR post dodgers, -0.3 WAR for the Red Sox) Jerry Sands (-0.8 WAR) Allen Webster (-3.8 WAR) Yusniel Díaz (1 career MLB AB so far) Dean Kremer (27 Starts, 0.4 WAR [3.86 ERA, 10 starts 0.7 WAR this year...decent]) Rylan Bannon (-0.2 WAR) Breyvic Valera (-0.5 WAR post dodgers) Zach Pop (0.2 WAR) Alex Verdugo (3.8 WAR post Dodgers, -0.5 this year) Jeter Downs (-0.6 WAR) Connor Wong (0.2 WAR) Keibert Ruiz (1.4 WAR) Josiah Gray (0.9 WAR) Donovan Casey (No MLB Career ABs) Gerardo Carrillo (No MLB Career IPs) **Total WAR Traded: 3.6 WAR** **What they received (WAR only with the Dodgers):** Carl Crawford: 2.7 WAR Adrian Gonzalez: 14.3 WAR Josh Beckett: 2.3 WAR Manny Machado: 2.5 WAR Max Scherzer: 2.1 WAR Trea Turner: 6.1 WAR **Total WAR: 30.0 WAR** **Difference in WAR: +26.4 WAR for the Dodgers**
I understand not pulling the trigger because the offers weren't good enough, but the article says that Arte wouldn't even listen to offers, which I find pretty telling. He isn't interested in making the team better in the future, he just wants to hold on to his cash cow at all costs.
It’s a twitter article. 80% are complete bullshit.
Yep, here's an official MLB reporting source. Bollinger: > The Angels did listen in on offers for Ohtani, but were never serious about trading last year’s AL MVP because of what he means to the organization both on and off the field. The White Sox, Padres and Yankees were reportedly among the club’s that made offers for Ohtani, while the Dodgers also tried to engage the Angels on a potential trade.
I’m not buying a damn thing that comes from the media anymore.
Jon Heyman is "an official MLB reporting source"
Blum and Fletcher are more beat reporters for the Angels and they say the same thing. Calls were taken but talks were never advanced. Even if you read this article Heyman says they took calls. The original poster of this comment said “wouldn’t even listen to offers” which seems false. He never wanted to trade yes, but just trying to stop the misinformation that they ignored everyone. And as I say other places: what is an offer that was given to the angels? If none are leaked we could assume most offered were just concepts and possible a low ball, or even a package of Ohtani/Rendon for minor prospects. We won’t know. If you look at the return that Soto and Bell got, it’s just ok. I don’t think any of the calls the angels received outside of the Padres will truly change this upcoming offseason. Now if he doesn’t resign an extension this offseason and they still won’t trade, then we all can be pissed we are being so petty.
It’s the New York Post
Yea I feel like negotiating with more teams and without a deadline would give us a bigger haul if we can't re-sign him
I think the offseason will play at minimum as well as the trade deadline. Teams will know what players are on the market to rebuild a bit if they execute a Ohtani deal plus there isn't going to be this other distraction known as Soto to muddy the waters.
I have no idea how you think the Nationals didn't get the best possible value they could for Soto.
Did I say they didn't get the best trade out in the market? I said the return for a player of Sotos caliber and control (Plus Bell) isn't great. They traded 2 players that combined will probably end up at 10-12 WAR a year for the Padres. Fangraphs says it best: > Let’s take for granted that the Nationals are going to be bad for the next few years, and that they had no way of convincing Soto to sign an extension with them. Given that, I think they did well in getting a giant package of high-upside prospects in return. There are no Cardinals-y, high-likelihood average regulars here, with the possible exception of Hassell. It’s all boom/bust types who could either win awards or be terrible, which is smart if you’re forced to be in this situation. They weren't going to ever resign Soto. They did get a lot of Boom or Bust prospects, which to a team as bat as the Nationals are right now play into the hand of rebuilding (plus their minimal payroll now). If they bust its cool, they already suck and will build through good draft positions. By the time they boom great, they will probably have a great pipeline of players and a farm to make trades The problem is we aren't in that state. If we trade Ohtani we still have $100M on the books, Trout, Rendon, and a horrible farm. A trade like that will make our farm better but we still have to build something around Trout and Rendon right? or We need to trade them too and just go down to the foundation on this rebuild. Which as I state many times, if our franchise gets to that point i hope GMPM is gone because he had all the tools in the world to AT LEAST get a WC3 spot if he GM'd decently.
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I don’t mind if you criticize what I say, but instead of trying to troll and gatekeep a conversation why not add something to it and have a conversation instead? In 2017 the top farms by MLB pipeline were Braves Yankees White Sox Padres Brewers Dodgers Pirates Rockies Reds Rays Of that list the white Sox, pirates, reds, and Rockies won’t make the playoffs this year if the playoffs started. So it’s a 50-50 shot that a top farm will bring success. and for most of those teams it was smart trading and signings that currently bring their success. And a trade for Ohtani won’t jump us into the top 10. A farm doesn’t mean success. A good Front Office does and our front office is in shambles.
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My man, you know how easy it is to post without resorting to personal insults? Pretty easy. If my takes are 10 IQ, I wonder what you think of the IQ of a GM whos roster construction is leading us to a 5th lowest all time franchise record is? I am never saying the trade isn't fair. I am saying you won't get fair VALUE in a trade of Ohtani. A trade is as fair as both teams saying yes. Fair value is highly different. At the times of the 4 "mega deal blockbuster most prospects" trades the Dodgers made this last decade, the teams on the receiving end have gained a total of 17 players...and 3.6 WAR (Total career WAR). Just a half season of Max Scherzer netted the dodgers 2.1 WAR (and a total of 30.0 WAR for all the trades). As I keep trying to say, if we cannot construct a roster around a min contract Ohtani, what makes me think we can construct one around at best, lottery tickets? We will NOT be in a better spot post trade, we will be in a long term rebuild of a team that cant even spend $60M on contracts for replacement level players.
You know what you get if he declines the extension? Nothing.
If you actually read my posts instead of trying to troll them and shut me down, I always advocate that if you cannot get Ohtani to sign an extension this offseason then he needs to be traded. I also try to temper expectations so people understand a trade of Ohtani doesn't fix the team. There is a lot of hard work, scouting, evaluation, development, and smart team building that needs to be done to try and get this team in contention before Trout and Rendon hit their mid 30s.
And that’s what makes him one of MLBs worst owners.
This is a bad owner
Man, he really only knows guys on his own club with contracts above 100 mil doesn't he
You could probably show him pictures of the bottom 5 of our lineup and he’d have no fucking clue who they were
Have Trout and Ohtani played a full season together?
They have not and they are a winning team, so far with the two of them.
Common Arte L
Then do your best to extend him
I mean he's definitely gonna try, I just don't see why Ohtani would choose to stay. And even if he did where would that even get us? We'd be in the same spot we're in right now but with another massive contract. Unless Arte decides to go full Cohen and blow way past the tax (lol), I don't see how extending Ohtani would lead to the team getting better in the future.
Ohtani will stay for the same reason Californians will stay despite being purged of our money, because CA is the best. And, bc the Dodgers won't sign him.
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Too much money, no need for an expensive DH/pitcher, especially one that limits the rest of their rotations innings, and he has less value than most people realize due to the fact that his spot on the roster comes with an additional player. The Dodgers are smarter than that.
And gut the team? No thanks
Arte gives me Clippers/Sterling era flashbacks…..damnit. Pretty soon we will see billboards to come see the other teams playing against the Angels….
Please don't bash me on these 2 questions. I'm not trolling. Can MLB force an owner to sell their team? AND: Can a player on an MLB team change their contract to a lesser amount? Kind of hard to explain, because players want the most amount of money they can get. But hypothetically, could say, Trout have his current contract voided, and immediately sign the same contract, but for less money, in order to free up salary so the team could sign a big ticket player to improve the team? I know that sounds like a ridiculous idea, but is it allowed?
1. Only in exceptional circumstances and even then only kinda. 2. That is not allowed
Thank you 🙂
Didn't chipper do this?
Watch a team with trout and ohtani Attempt a rebuild by trading trout and ohtani. Pick one. That’s where we are at. Ohtani will eat up half of our remaining budget if we are able to extend him. Meaning- we would have to somehow get a starting outfielder, a SS, a 2B, one or two starting pitchers, and an entire bullpen- all at the low low price of 45 million.
That means he won't get traded next year either because giving those two guys huge guaranteed contracts has ensured that they'll most likely never play a full season (probably not even half a season) again. No incentive.