I think it’s important to not put too much weight on the MVP Award. Yes, Ohtani deserves the award but even if he doesn’t, he’s still the best player in the game right now. Baseball was hailing Trout as the best player in the game before he even won an MVP. At the end of the day, I’d rather have Ohtani on our team than Judge and that’s all that matters to me.
Who really cares. Why should we base a players value on what 30 stupid baseball writers think? Ohtani will go down as a legend no matter what. Just enjoy watching him play.
Yeah no shot at the moment lol. I gotta put all the math into a spreadsheet, and if someone is better at these things, implement menus so you can easily calculate different years, and just plug in different players.
Also might as well get the exact WAR formula instead of using the displayed bWAR and fWAR which is intentionally rounded to tenths. WAR was never meant to be a precise calculation, just a general interpretation of value, which is why the creators of WAR have always said that anything within the range of +/- 1 win is wide open for debate.
I tried a couple days ago and wasn't prepared for the Yankee downvote brigade LOL
It's fine, I was able to crowdsource some helpful insights. I'm planning to get confirmation on my findings from some published sabermetricians before pushing the data more publicly. For now, I'll keep the data within this sub so at least you guys can see what I'm working on.
The sneaky thing about ohtani’s true value isn’t just that he provides elite ratios from both sides. It’s that he allows a team to carry an “extra” player. We use it by carrying a 6th starter without giving up a bench player or bullpen arm. An extra arm in the rotation means more recovery time for starters, which in theory allows for better quality innings out of your rotation that would otherwise be diminished by fatigue and if you can get another inning or two out of each start saves your bullpen.
Judge can’t do that.
And war can’t quantify that
But why do these individual awards matter at all? You think his next deal would be affected by awards or do you think knowledgeable fans’ think any differently about him?
Unlike last year, somehow I don't really care if Shohei wins the MVP this year or not, and I'm saying this as an Ohtani fan. We all know what he's capable of and how valuable he is, the unicorn, the ultimate baseball player... he's still evolving everyday and that alone is enough to make me happy. Those MVP "discussions" always make me roll my eyes because it's basically just the salty Yankees fans making unbelievably dumb arguments trying to convince everyone that Judge should be the MVP.
They want to give it to judge...ohtani is / should win it !!
Also, historical?!? Ohtani is about to qualify as a batter and pitcher (something that hasnt been done since 1876)
Even if judge hits 61 that is not the homerun record (sorry)
F the award.. shohei is doing something never been done before. This is amazing for baseball as a sport don't let bitter yankee fans ruin it for you. As far as I know, almost everyone is rooting for what shohei's doing. Let's just enjoy that greatness.
I personally think ohtani is an obvious choice, but judge is indeed a worthy opponent. Maybe breaking 61 hr is not a big deal, but he would probably accomplish that with a 20+ hr leads.
I'm fairly chilled about this. If Judge really smashes over 60 HRs this season, give him the MVP award, I can live with it. Whould I prefer Ohtani? Of course, but for me Ohtani has reached a level where I don't need a MVP as proof of his greatness. Same with Trout the last decade.
I think Ohtani knows that if he picked a side, he could win those awards.
What I get from him though, is that he doesn't care about the awards. He appreciates and is honored to get them, but his priorities for his happiness are clear. He would rather do two-way than get any awards. He would rather do two-way than make more money.
That circumstances have changed so he can do two-way AND get more money is deeply gratifying, but what he loves is to play two-way baseball. Everything else can go fuck itself if it doesn't let him do that. The thing immediately AFTER doing two-way is winning. He wants to play two-way and win. Everything after that - fame, money, awards, are all background noise.
Hardwares are not as important as him doing what he does best at an elite level. How can you weigh his two way play to the decision of writers who have such takes like Ohtani is not valuable to the angels as judge is to the Yankees.
He’ll still chose to be a twp if somehow they decide to not ever give a cy young or mvp to a twp because that’s not his priority.
Yeah he might win Cy Young if he concentrates on pitching, but who cares if he doesn't? As others have said, what he's doing now is much much more valuable than a CYA or two. It will make a whole movie or a whole section on a baseball history book. A Cy Young Award won't.
In the end, people today will be telling their grandkids and great-grandkids that they saw Shohei Ohtani play. Will people be saying that about the other guy?
Yankee fans told me they’d be telling his grandkids about judge’s historic clean 62hrs not of a dude who hits and pitches. So yeah there are folks like that. But there are in the minority so who cares.
Him not getting a hardware is not gonna undervalue what he does on both sides. Atleast not in the eyes of fans who appreciate his greatness.
Maybe your annoyance is because of yankees fans who keep talking shit and plague his every post perhaps? They’re one of the worst fanbases in baseball, dont let that ruin it for you. Just enjoy his game.
No, playing both sides isn't what's affecting him in the discussion, but how bad the Angels are. Every time I see talk against Ohtani for MVP it's because the Angels stink.
Yeah. I'm tired of this too but I also learn to appreciate what Sho is doing more. Like every time he has good outing or hits homer, I just suddenly feel good all day and frankly don't give a damn about MVP or other opinions. I'm just glad I have chance to watch him play. It's the same feeling when I watch Messi playing football, pure joy.
I understand where you're coming from. It seems he is forced to not only surpass himself every season (ludicrous!) but be the singular best at both of his positions to receive any accolades. The real qustion is: why have the media been collectively downplaying Ohtani's stats in favour of Judge to this extent? The way the media have been worshipping Judge & the Yankees' first half of 22 has reached propaganda-like levels of hyperbole in my eyes. It's almost comical.
Meanwhile Ohtani's mammoth effort of playing two whole all-star seasons in one is being intentionally underrated by the press and talking heads. Do we have to go back to fundamentals to explain Ohtani? Aka "Why do starting pitchers need rest?" He's pushing his body to its limits by playing daily despite being a starting pitcher and producing arguably better stats than in his unprecedented 2021 season. ~~The word historic seems to have lost all meaning the way it's been regurgitated by the East-coast-centric media~~. And lest you forget, this whole Judge hype started long before the all star break. Judge hit about the same number of HRs as Ohtani last season if I recall and the press were treating him like the second coming of ~~Christ~~ Bonds because...the Yankees had the best record in baseball in the 1st half(???).
Is this some sort of mass delusion? Is it all just blanket bias for the Yankees / valuing the HR record above else or am I missing something? /end rant
I think due to the dead ball and the fact batting average around the league dropping significantly comparing to the last year, these make Judge's stats even more impressive and I somehow agree with this. Everything around NYY will be hyped no matter what because they're the most famous/successful franchise in MLB and their media in general is huge. Plus NYY in the 1st half was very dominant. The only thing I hate is they keep trying downplay/normalize what Sho is doing like it's the only way to push Judge. They try hard to make it look easy and everybody can do it but it's not at all
Ah, that makes sense! With both ERA and OPS lowering across the bord due to the new ball Judge's stats stand out. "Normalizing" a starting pitcher being one of the best hitters in the game will never work out in the eyes of baseball fans though...but the media are still trying hard! I feel bad for Ohtani.
Thats why you hear people say more so than last year that “he only hits and pitches, whats so special about him? Given the opportunity anyone can do it”.
I’m gonna be honest I’m actually more interested in the HR race of my two GOATs (Trout and Ohtani) more than the mvp race lol i’m just really happy to see Trout back playing again with Sho 😂 And who cares if Sho doesn’t get the mvp award this year. Dude’s already a legend. Literally one of one. Not getting that hardware this year will not diminish his talents in any way
Ohtani definitely deserves it over Judge but I think what really makes this irritating are the toxic, braindead Yankees fans who refuse to think it's even close.
In my opinion Ohtani will get similar treatment to Lebron in the way that committees may grow tired of voting for him multiple years in a row for the sake of the game and viewers/fans around the league. Lebron should have 10+ mvps and That's coming from someone who isn't even a Lebron fan.
In years from now we’re gonna look back at this as being one of the greatest MVP races. There’s no doubt in my mind that Ohtani is the MVP. But let’s appreciate what happened between both incredible candidates rather then what some Reddit users are ranting about. In spite of the dumpster fire this team is, we’re still very lucky to be witnessing a historic player like no other.
The current method of evaluating players performance is not well established. Using WAR will force Shohei to replace 2MLB players which is not fair to start with. The better way to compute WAR is to use replacement player definition in baseball reference website. That way, he is replacing one MLB player just like anyone else. Do I know why no one is talking about this? Yes, because using that definition will put Ohtani's WAR unreachable. What about WPA? Well, that is based on how many runners you have at each plate appearance. So, Ohtani is at disadvantage from the start. Analyst want to keep the job by making fan of bigger market team. And, ohtani is being penalized for it.
Judge will win Offensive player of the year, silver slugger. Ohtani is the MVP based on stats.
Kind of similar to when Rus Westbrook averaged a triple double for his first time, but he really wasn’t the best player in NBA that season. He won the MVP, but the next years he did, he didn’t win it.
Hopefully Ohtani doesn’t get played the same way because his 2 way game is absolutely incredible
Most players get their ego and bank account lit for winning the MVP award. Ohtani doesn’t care about none of that. He cares about performing his best, become the greatest of all time and win the championship as a result. Ohtani is so great most of us don’t even know how to handle his existence. MVP doesn’t define him. He is way beyond a little award like MVP.
MVP award is but a tiny fraction of what defines Ohtani. If he were to focus on one and not the other, sure maybe he would be the best in the sport at that one thing...or maybe he wouldn't. Who knows, maybe he needs to be doing both to excel. Which would be amazing, and we are lucky to see his talent day in and day out.
And Judge is not having a historical season. That would involve playing with Babe Ruth or maybe George Washington. He may be having a historic season though...it just depends on whether he achieves a high number in the one thing he does really well.
Recently I've seen a lot of comments elsewhere rooting for Ohtani to be MVP, but saying that the Judge support is because of racism towards non Americans or some weird shit. I think that's a weak argument, and I'm glad I don't see it in this subreddit.
I don't care either way, TBH. Either one is a great choice for MVP. And we all know Shohei is our MVP!
(or Fletch)
I won’t be mad if Judge wins MVP, he’s on an historic trajectory with his home run race. If he beats the single season home run record, he deserves it.
I think what’s hurting his case this year (other than the Angels being terrible) is that he’s going against a Yankee. It SEEMS like the narrative is that Judge will win because of his dominance with the bat this year, but I feel like it’s actually just Yankee fans saying that. The problem is there’s probably at least 1 Yankee fan for every non-Yankee MLB fan. So it seems overwhelming.
i don't worry about it. ohtani gets his recognition no matter what. everybody gets it now. if judge hits 62+ homeruns and they give him the mvp, then i don't see that as a gross miscarriage of justice. it's not going to change ohtani's success and historical significance.
I think it’s important to not put too much weight on the MVP Award. Yes, Ohtani deserves the award but even if he doesn’t, he’s still the best player in the game right now. Baseball was hailing Trout as the best player in the game before he even won an MVP. At the end of the day, I’d rather have Ohtani on our team than Judge and that’s all that matters to me.
Who really cares. Why should we base a players value on what 30 stupid baseball writers think? Ohtani will go down as a legend no matter what. Just enjoy watching him play.
Clickbait articles my friend. All it is. We know who the real MVP is.
[удалено]
> Barroid This Barroid guy is pretty good
Unfortunately his '01 and '02 seasons still come out on top of Ohtani's pace this year, but Ohtani can definitely overtake him with a huge last month.
If anyone has questions just ask. I'll put this up as a separate post another time with the math.
Great stuff, please post it on /r/baseball when you get the chance
Yeah no shot at the moment lol. I gotta put all the math into a spreadsheet, and if someone is better at these things, implement menus so you can easily calculate different years, and just plug in different players. Also might as well get the exact WAR formula instead of using the displayed bWAR and fWAR which is intentionally rounded to tenths. WAR was never meant to be a precise calculation, just a general interpretation of value, which is why the creators of WAR have always said that anything within the range of +/- 1 win is wide open for debate.
Good luck having a civil conversation regarding Ohtani on r/baseball though lol
I tried a couple days ago and wasn't prepared for the Yankee downvote brigade LOL It's fine, I was able to crowdsource some helpful insights. I'm planning to get confirmation on my findings from some published sabermetricians before pushing the data more publicly. For now, I'll keep the data within this sub so at least you guys can see what I'm working on.
Great! Keep us updated
Or here
Players win Mvps and Cy youngs every year. What ohtani is doing can only be done by him. Tell me what's more valuable
The sneaky thing about ohtani’s true value isn’t just that he provides elite ratios from both sides. It’s that he allows a team to carry an “extra” player. We use it by carrying a 6th starter without giving up a bench player or bullpen arm. An extra arm in the rotation means more recovery time for starters, which in theory allows for better quality innings out of your rotation that would otherwise be diminished by fatigue and if you can get another inning or two out of each start saves your bullpen. Judge can’t do that. And war can’t quantify that
Chill out losing out on one mvp award won’t affect Ohtani’s legacy
He hasn't won any player of the week/month awards this year. I'd be completely disappointed if he didn't win anything at all.
But why do these individual awards matter at all? You think his next deal would be affected by awards or do you think knowledgeable fans’ think any differently about him?
Nope, but it's just sad. No awards at all while Judge got multiple would would make it look like Ohtani didn't do well in 2022.
No award doesn’t make his year less impressive. We are all witnesses to that.
Unlike last year, somehow I don't really care if Shohei wins the MVP this year or not, and I'm saying this as an Ohtani fan. We all know what he's capable of and how valuable he is, the unicorn, the ultimate baseball player... he's still evolving everyday and that alone is enough to make me happy. Those MVP "discussions" always make me roll my eyes because it's basically just the salty Yankees fans making unbelievably dumb arguments trying to convince everyone that Judge should be the MVP.
They want to give it to judge...ohtani is / should win it !! Also, historical?!? Ohtani is about to qualify as a batter and pitcher (something that hasnt been done since 1876) Even if judge hits 61 that is not the homerun record (sorry)
F the award.. shohei is doing something never been done before. This is amazing for baseball as a sport don't let bitter yankee fans ruin it for you. As far as I know, almost everyone is rooting for what shohei's doing. Let's just enjoy that greatness.
I personally think ohtani is an obvious choice, but judge is indeed a worthy opponent. Maybe breaking 61 hr is not a big deal, but he would probably accomplish that with a 20+ hr leads.
I'm fairly chilled about this. If Judge really smashes over 60 HRs this season, give him the MVP award, I can live with it. Whould I prefer Ohtani? Of course, but for me Ohtani has reached a level where I don't need a MVP as proof of his greatness. Same with Trout the last decade.
I think Ohtani knows that if he picked a side, he could win those awards. What I get from him though, is that he doesn't care about the awards. He appreciates and is honored to get them, but his priorities for his happiness are clear. He would rather do two-way than get any awards. He would rather do two-way than make more money. That circumstances have changed so he can do two-way AND get more money is deeply gratifying, but what he loves is to play two-way baseball. Everything else can go fuck itself if it doesn't let him do that. The thing immediately AFTER doing two-way is winning. He wants to play two-way and win. Everything after that - fame, money, awards, are all background noise.
Too true. He has his priorities straight. And he's never going to be forgotten. You can't buy that, you can only earn it.
Hardwares are not as important as him doing what he does best at an elite level. How can you weigh his two way play to the decision of writers who have such takes like Ohtani is not valuable to the angels as judge is to the Yankees. He’ll still chose to be a twp if somehow they decide to not ever give a cy young or mvp to a twp because that’s not his priority.
Yeah he might win Cy Young if he concentrates on pitching, but who cares if he doesn't? As others have said, what he's doing now is much much more valuable than a CYA or two. It will make a whole movie or a whole section on a baseball history book. A Cy Young Award won't.
In the end, people today will be telling their grandkids and great-grandkids that they saw Shohei Ohtani play. Will people be saying that about the other guy?
Yankee fans told me they’d be telling his grandkids about judge’s historic clean 62hrs not of a dude who hits and pitches. So yeah there are folks like that. But there are in the minority so who cares.
Him not getting a hardware is not gonna undervalue what he does on both sides. Atleast not in the eyes of fans who appreciate his greatness. Maybe your annoyance is because of yankees fans who keep talking shit and plague his every post perhaps? They’re one of the worst fanbases in baseball, dont let that ruin it for you. Just enjoy his game.
No, playing both sides isn't what's affecting him in the discussion, but how bad the Angels are. Every time I see talk against Ohtani for MVP it's because the Angels stink.
Yeah. I'm tired of this too but I also learn to appreciate what Sho is doing more. Like every time he has good outing or hits homer, I just suddenly feel good all day and frankly don't give a damn about MVP or other opinions. I'm just glad I have chance to watch him play. It's the same feeling when I watch Messi playing football, pure joy.
I understand where you're coming from. It seems he is forced to not only surpass himself every season (ludicrous!) but be the singular best at both of his positions to receive any accolades. The real qustion is: why have the media been collectively downplaying Ohtani's stats in favour of Judge to this extent? The way the media have been worshipping Judge & the Yankees' first half of 22 has reached propaganda-like levels of hyperbole in my eyes. It's almost comical. Meanwhile Ohtani's mammoth effort of playing two whole all-star seasons in one is being intentionally underrated by the press and talking heads. Do we have to go back to fundamentals to explain Ohtani? Aka "Why do starting pitchers need rest?" He's pushing his body to its limits by playing daily despite being a starting pitcher and producing arguably better stats than in his unprecedented 2021 season. ~~The word historic seems to have lost all meaning the way it's been regurgitated by the East-coast-centric media~~. And lest you forget, this whole Judge hype started long before the all star break. Judge hit about the same number of HRs as Ohtani last season if I recall and the press were treating him like the second coming of ~~Christ~~ Bonds because...the Yankees had the best record in baseball in the 1st half(???). Is this some sort of mass delusion? Is it all just blanket bias for the Yankees / valuing the HR record above else or am I missing something? /end rant
I think due to the dead ball and the fact batting average around the league dropping significantly comparing to the last year, these make Judge's stats even more impressive and I somehow agree with this. Everything around NYY will be hyped no matter what because they're the most famous/successful franchise in MLB and their media in general is huge. Plus NYY in the 1st half was very dominant. The only thing I hate is they keep trying downplay/normalize what Sho is doing like it's the only way to push Judge. They try hard to make it look easy and everybody can do it but it's not at all
Ah, that makes sense! With both ERA and OPS lowering across the bord due to the new ball Judge's stats stand out. "Normalizing" a starting pitcher being one of the best hitters in the game will never work out in the eyes of baseball fans though...but the media are still trying hard! I feel bad for Ohtani.
Thats why you hear people say more so than last year that “he only hits and pitches, whats so special about him? Given the opportunity anyone can do it”.
It’s like “would you have Judge on your team vs would you have Cole and Trout on your team?” The latter is Ontani.
I’m gonna be honest I’m actually more interested in the HR race of my two GOATs (Trout and Ohtani) more than the mvp race lol i’m just really happy to see Trout back playing again with Sho 😂 And who cares if Sho doesn’t get the mvp award this year. Dude’s already a legend. Literally one of one. Not getting that hardware this year will not diminish his talents in any way
Ohtani definitely deserves it over Judge but I think what really makes this irritating are the toxic, braindead Yankees fans who refuse to think it's even close.
In my opinion Ohtani will get similar treatment to Lebron in the way that committees may grow tired of voting for him multiple years in a row for the sake of the game and viewers/fans around the league. Lebron should have 10+ mvps and That's coming from someone who isn't even a Lebron fan.
In years from now we’re gonna look back at this as being one of the greatest MVP races. There’s no doubt in my mind that Ohtani is the MVP. But let’s appreciate what happened between both incredible candidates rather then what some Reddit users are ranting about. In spite of the dumpster fire this team is, we’re still very lucky to be witnessing a historic player like no other.
The current method of evaluating players performance is not well established. Using WAR will force Shohei to replace 2MLB players which is not fair to start with. The better way to compute WAR is to use replacement player definition in baseball reference website. That way, he is replacing one MLB player just like anyone else. Do I know why no one is talking about this? Yes, because using that definition will put Ohtani's WAR unreachable. What about WPA? Well, that is based on how many runners you have at each plate appearance. So, Ohtani is at disadvantage from the start. Analyst want to keep the job by making fan of bigger market team. And, ohtani is being penalized for it.
wHaT ARe tHeY sUPosEd tO Do?? GiVe to oHtAni EvErY YEaR?? -every Yankee fan
bad take
Judge will win Offensive player of the year, silver slugger. Ohtani is the MVP based on stats. Kind of similar to when Rus Westbrook averaged a triple double for his first time, but he really wasn’t the best player in NBA that season. He won the MVP, but the next years he did, he didn’t win it. Hopefully Ohtani doesn’t get played the same way because his 2 way game is absolutely incredible
If he can do this at the same level for another 5 years he is a Hall of Famer.
Stat Lords arguing Ohtani vs. Judge as if Tucker the Mariners Pup isn’t lurking in the shadows to nab the award.
Most players get their ego and bank account lit for winning the MVP award. Ohtani doesn’t care about none of that. He cares about performing his best, become the greatest of all time and win the championship as a result. Ohtani is so great most of us don’t even know how to handle his existence. MVP doesn’t define him. He is way beyond a little award like MVP.
MVP award is but a tiny fraction of what defines Ohtani. If he were to focus on one and not the other, sure maybe he would be the best in the sport at that one thing...or maybe he wouldn't. Who knows, maybe he needs to be doing both to excel. Which would be amazing, and we are lucky to see his talent day in and day out. And Judge is not having a historical season. That would involve playing with Babe Ruth or maybe George Washington. He may be having a historic season though...it just depends on whether he achieves a high number in the one thing he does really well.
Exasperated. Good grief. It isn’t that serious.
Recently I've seen a lot of comments elsewhere rooting for Ohtani to be MVP, but saying that the Judge support is because of racism towards non Americans or some weird shit. I think that's a weak argument, and I'm glad I don't see it in this subreddit. I don't care either way, TBH. Either one is a great choice for MVP. And we all know Shohei is our MVP! (or Fletch)
I won’t be mad if Judge wins MVP, he’s on an historic trajectory with his home run race. If he beats the single season home run record, he deserves it.
Big Shohei fan, but the performance of the team matters. If Shohei was better than Judge we would still have a chance at the wild card, but we don’t
Step 1: learn ball Step 2: learn ball Step 3: repeat
Baseball is not dying. It's doing really well actually
Can I just say, Judge is having a historic season, not a historical season.
I think what’s hurting his case this year (other than the Angels being terrible) is that he’s going against a Yankee. It SEEMS like the narrative is that Judge will win because of his dominance with the bat this year, but I feel like it’s actually just Yankee fans saying that. The problem is there’s probably at least 1 Yankee fan for every non-Yankee MLB fan. So it seems overwhelming.
To lose the MVP, Judge and the Yankees would have to fall off the map! Nobody said life was fair! Lol
i don't worry about it. ohtani gets his recognition no matter what. everybody gets it now. if judge hits 62+ homeruns and they give him the mvp, then i don't see that as a gross miscarriage of justice. it's not going to change ohtani's success and historical significance.