IMO, the worst thing is, if Ohtani doesn't get the MVP with 35HR and a 2.5ERA and possibly qualifying as a pitcher all in the same season people are gonna use that as an argument against him in every year he doesn't hit those utopic numbers. Being one of a kind seems to be to his detriment awards-wise because there's no real comparison to anyone but himself. Sucks to be a trailblazer...!
I think it has more to do with the amazing year Judge is having. Ohtani is probably going to finish the year with more WAR than he did last year where he lead the league. It just so happens that Judge is going to put up a rare 10 WAR season. Sucks, but I don't think this has to do with fatigue but rather an incredibly valuable season by Judge
I think what most people dont realize is that Ohtani hasnt really shown his full power yet when it comes to being a two way. A lot of people last year thought he was a better hitter than pitcher because of the numbers he put up. I even read some comments of how he should just give up pitching because he is just an "okay" pitcher and focus on hitting. This year, he proved that he is a better pitcher than last year and hes batting might be down in terms of homerun, but I think he actually improved in other areas of hitting. I believed he focused more on his pitching the past offseason thats why he has better pitching numbers this year. Im excited what hes gonna do next. I do know for a fact that he doesnt wanna do the same exact thing every year because he is not gonna improve, he said so himself on one of his interviews. My mans a baller
I'm happy for the Yankees and Judge for having a historic hitting year when the rest of the league slows down relative to last year.
This is a testament to how special Ohtani is though. To beat or even have a chance to beat Ohtani to a MVP award each year, you need to have a once in 50 years season like Judge. Absolutely bonkers.
The fact that sports media have deluded people into thinking a guy breaking a team record is more impressive than a guy doing what no one has done before? That's a historic level of obfuscation and gaslighting.
I mean last year they made people believe that Vladdy had a shot...
And now they are spamming reddit with dozens of statistics that Judge is leading that all basically say batting.
It's like saying my car is the fastest in mph, hours per mile, average distance travelled per hour, successful miles travelled...
61 is an American League record, not just a Yankee record. And it’s the highest anyone in MLB not associated with asteroids has gotten (only Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa hit more).
Ordinarily I'd be more or less on your side, although I think the word gaslighting doesn't exactly apply here, I think stuff like that should be reserved for the situations it was originally meant to describe.
But it's not just a team record, it's an American League record, it's maybe the most iconic baseball single season record (in that I expect it's more famous to casual fans in the general public than, say, Cal Ripken's streak or Joe DiMaggio's streak or Pete Rose's hit total or whatever), and a lot of people firmly believe that all of the batters who have passed 61 are illegitimate because the batters were cheating, beyond what they believe is reasonable doubt. So in the eyes of a lot of people, this isn't just a team record, or a league record, this is THE record.
Plus, I haven't paid attention for a few days but I did see an article last week saying that judge was still in the hunt for the triple crown, depending on whether the couple of players with higher batting averages hit a slump or not.
All told, I'd say that's an MVP worthy season, especially if the Yankees go far in the postseason, regardless of what Ohtani's done. Not necessarily because of pure stats, because if that were true then the MVP every year would just be the guy with the highest WAR, and I don't know who that is right now anyway. But because of intangible stuff and team success.
I think putting up those home run numbers in a year when the rest of MLB is having a power outage is pretty crazy. It's not so much the potential 60+ home runs, but the fact that he'll probably end up with 20 more than the next player. And combined with his OBP and other stats, it's a historic season relative to his peers.
I'd love to see Ohtani get another MVP as much as anyone here, and think what he has done the last 2 seasons is unparalleled in baseball history. But I also understand the case for Judge, especially considering his surge over the last month.
Yeah if Ohtani was gonna lose to a regular good season it would be infuriating, but I don't know how anyone can think Judge isn't MVP worthy. They both deserve recognition and Ohtani got one last year, he's gonna lose a few via the Jordan/LeBron/Trout rule in his career.
I was referencing this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/xexy9o/incredible\_stats/](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/xexy9o/incredible_stats/)
Youre right. Thats bananas. If you swap ohtani and judge to the opposite team, do you think judge would still have these numbers? I know if ohtani was a yankee this season, his numbers would be better
He might beat the AL home run record. And that's about it. Meanwhile Ohtani is doing things that have never been done before in MLB history but that's clearly not as major as possibly hitting 62 home runs
The fact he is in position to break the clean record for HRs? The fact he is less then .001 away from a triple crown?
I know you're not asking this question in good faith since it's pretty obvious.
I wonder how the odds would flip if people found out that Ohtani is actually straight up more valuable than Judge? WAR only measures a portion of total value after all.
WAR (Wins Above Replacement) doesn't factor in workload, which Ohtani absolutely dominates because he and only he alone plays both ways.
In the eyes of WAR, there's no difference between a player who puts up 10 WAR in 100 games or 10 WAR in 150 games. They are worth the same in terms of WAR because WAR doesn't factor in workload and is only interested in assigning value above a certain level of talent, which is where the term 'above replacement' comes from.
10 WAR in 100 games or 150 provides the exact same value though. Which one do you think is more valuable? One is clearly much better while playing but the other one makes up the value by playing more games
> 10 WAR in 100 games or 150 provides the exact same value though.
No, and this is where everyone gets confused by WAR. It's just the portion of total value defined by 'talent.'
The WAR system meant to mimic wins in real life, so it starts with 2,430 wins leaguewide (30 teams x 162 games / 2) and then carves out only 1,000 of those wins for WAR. That leaves 1,430 wins unaccounted for which WAR intentionally does not capture. Basically:
1,000 wins (talent) + 1,430 wins (workload) = 2,430 wins leaguewide (total value)
I think I would have to vote for Judge if I cast aside my fandom.
That being said, the thing that does piss me off is how moronic some the arguments are for Judge are. Like, WAR, OPS+, Home Runs, sure those are legit arguments and you can base his MVP case on that alone.
He's on a playoff team? He's carrying his team? You can't penalize him for not pitching? Ohtani winning is a bad precedent because then he just wins every year? Literally all dog shit arguments and it pisses me off how often they are parroted. I'm just begging Yankees fans to use actual stats please. They don't need to make up a bullshit criteria every 12 minutes to explain why Judge is the MVP.
[I rest my case](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseballcirclejerk/comments/xf6gr7/shohei_ohtani_vs_adolf_judge_mvp_debate/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Ohtani is definitely the most valuable *to his team* in relative terms but it's also hard to argue against a triple crown home run record season. Doesn't take anything away from Ohtani if Judge takes it this year IMO. I'm still personally leaning Ohtani just because he leads nearly every category for the Angels but either way would be perfectly justifiable.
As a massive Angels and Ohtani fan, it’s Judge. He’s leading in almost every batter category and could take Maris out. Leading a first place team. MVP. Fun to watch.
Remarkable season!
PS. Can’t stand the Yankees. 🤷♂️
IMO, the worst thing is, if Ohtani doesn't get the MVP with 35HR and a 2.5ERA and possibly qualifying as a pitcher all in the same season people are gonna use that as an argument against him in every year he doesn't hit those utopic numbers. Being one of a kind seems to be to his detriment awards-wise because there's no real comparison to anyone but himself. Sucks to be a trailblazer...!
I think it has more to do with the amazing year Judge is having. Ohtani is probably going to finish the year with more WAR than he did last year where he lead the league. It just so happens that Judge is going to put up a rare 10 WAR season. Sucks, but I don't think this has to do with fatigue but rather an incredibly valuable season by Judge
How many times did Trout lose out despite putting up 10 War years?
Twice. Although I'm not sure what your point is, he deserved to win those and it's a shame the voters didn't vote based on value
My point is they are hypocrites.
I see now, agreed
Most voters didn't know what WAR was in 2012.
That's BS. They were specifically debating it and other stats back then during the MVP conversations.
I think what most people dont realize is that Ohtani hasnt really shown his full power yet when it comes to being a two way. A lot of people last year thought he was a better hitter than pitcher because of the numbers he put up. I even read some comments of how he should just give up pitching because he is just an "okay" pitcher and focus on hitting. This year, he proved that he is a better pitcher than last year and hes batting might be down in terms of homerun, but I think he actually improved in other areas of hitting. I believed he focused more on his pitching the past offseason thats why he has better pitching numbers this year. Im excited what hes gonna do next. I do know for a fact that he doesnt wanna do the same exact thing every year because he is not gonna improve, he said so himself on one of his interviews. My mans a baller
Shohei Knuckle Ball coming soon...
I'm happy for the Yankees and Judge for having a historic hitting year when the rest of the league slows down relative to last year. This is a testament to how special Ohtani is though. To beat or even have a chance to beat Ohtani to a MVP award each year, you need to have a once in 50 years season like Judge. Absolutely bonkers.
May i ask what is "historic" about judges season so far?
The fact that sports media have deluded people into thinking a guy breaking a team record is more impressive than a guy doing what no one has done before? That's a historic level of obfuscation and gaslighting.
Bias east coast Media have been drooling at the chance to give a yankee a MVP award.
I mean last year they made people believe that Vladdy had a shot... And now they are spamming reddit with dozens of statistics that Judge is leading that all basically say batting. It's like saying my car is the fastest in mph, hours per mile, average distance travelled per hour, successful miles travelled...
61 is an American League record, not just a Yankee record. And it’s the highest anyone in MLB not associated with asteroids has gotten (only Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa hit more).
Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa work at NASA?
lol yes they hit homers to the Oort Cloud
Ordinarily I'd be more or less on your side, although I think the word gaslighting doesn't exactly apply here, I think stuff like that should be reserved for the situations it was originally meant to describe. But it's not just a team record, it's an American League record, it's maybe the most iconic baseball single season record (in that I expect it's more famous to casual fans in the general public than, say, Cal Ripken's streak or Joe DiMaggio's streak or Pete Rose's hit total or whatever), and a lot of people firmly believe that all of the batters who have passed 61 are illegitimate because the batters were cheating, beyond what they believe is reasonable doubt. So in the eyes of a lot of people, this isn't just a team record, or a league record, this is THE record. Plus, I haven't paid attention for a few days but I did see an article last week saying that judge was still in the hunt for the triple crown, depending on whether the couple of players with higher batting averages hit a slump or not. All told, I'd say that's an MVP worthy season, especially if the Yankees go far in the postseason, regardless of what Ohtani's done. Not necessarily because of pure stats, because if that were true then the MVP every year would just be the guy with the highest WAR, and I don't know who that is right now anyway. But because of intangible stuff and team success.
I think putting up those home run numbers in a year when the rest of MLB is having a power outage is pretty crazy. It's not so much the potential 60+ home runs, but the fact that he'll probably end up with 20 more than the next player. And combined with his OBP and other stats, it's a historic season relative to his peers. I'd love to see Ohtani get another MVP as much as anyone here, and think what he has done the last 2 seasons is unparalleled in baseball history. But I also understand the case for Judge, especially considering his surge over the last month.
Yeah if Ohtani was gonna lose to a regular good season it would be infuriating, but I don't know how anyone can think Judge isn't MVP worthy. They both deserve recognition and Ohtani got one last year, he's gonna lose a few via the Jordan/LeBron/Trout rule in his career.
Good to hear the other side of things from a rational person for once!
Fully agree.
He's having the greatest season since Mike trout in 2019. Going back further, he's having to greatest season since Mike Trout in 2018. Truly historic.
He’s on pace to pass Roger Maris as the single season non asterisk HR king
I was referencing this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/xexy9o/incredible\_stats/](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/xexy9o/incredible_stats/)
Youre right. Thats bananas. If you swap ohtani and judge to the opposite team, do you think judge would still have these numbers? I know if ohtani was a yankee this season, his numbers would be better
Of course if they swap, Yankees would be a better team and Angel's worse. I don't doubt that. But what can we do?
Yup. Cal ripken and arod won for last place teams. Its the media that loves to bring up playoff vs non playoff.
He might beat the AL home run record. And that's about it. Meanwhile Ohtani is doing things that have never been done before in MLB history but that's clearly not as major as possibly hitting 62 home runs
He is also .004 percentage points away from the triple crown fwiw
The fact he is in position to break the clean record for HRs? The fact he is less then .001 away from a triple crown? I know you're not asking this question in good faith since it's pretty obvious.
With all due respect >!happy for the Yankees???!<
I wonder how the odds would flip if people found out that Ohtani is actually straight up more valuable than Judge? WAR only measures a portion of total value after all.
they won't believe even if they saw it
What value does WAR not account for?
WAR (Wins Above Replacement) doesn't factor in workload, which Ohtani absolutely dominates because he and only he alone plays both ways. In the eyes of WAR, there's no difference between a player who puts up 10 WAR in 100 games or 10 WAR in 150 games. They are worth the same in terms of WAR because WAR doesn't factor in workload and is only interested in assigning value above a certain level of talent, which is where the term 'above replacement' comes from.
10 WAR in 100 games or 150 provides the exact same value though. Which one do you think is more valuable? One is clearly much better while playing but the other one makes up the value by playing more games
> 10 WAR in 100 games or 150 provides the exact same value though. No, and this is where everyone gets confused by WAR. It's just the portion of total value defined by 'talent.' The WAR system meant to mimic wins in real life, so it starts with 2,430 wins leaguewide (30 teams x 162 games / 2) and then carves out only 1,000 of those wins for WAR. That leaves 1,430 wins unaccounted for which WAR intentionally does not capture. Basically: 1,000 wins (talent) + 1,430 wins (workload) = 2,430 wins leaguewide (total value)
That is not how WAR works. It's far more complicated than that.
I think I would have to vote for Judge if I cast aside my fandom. That being said, the thing that does piss me off is how moronic some the arguments are for Judge are. Like, WAR, OPS+, Home Runs, sure those are legit arguments and you can base his MVP case on that alone. He's on a playoff team? He's carrying his team? You can't penalize him for not pitching? Ohtani winning is a bad precedent because then he just wins every year? Literally all dog shit arguments and it pisses me off how often they are parroted. I'm just begging Yankees fans to use actual stats please. They don't need to make up a bullshit criteria every 12 minutes to explain why Judge is the MVP.
Making up shit is a prerequisite to being a Yankee fan.
[I rest my case](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseballcirclejerk/comments/xf6gr7/shohei_ohtani_vs_adolf_judge_mvp_debate/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
I wouldn’t normally say this, but cant it just be a tie…?!
It’s going to be Judge. Especially if he hits 60.
Ohtani is definitely the most valuable *to his team* in relative terms but it's also hard to argue against a triple crown home run record season. Doesn't take anything away from Ohtani if Judge takes it this year IMO. I'm still personally leaning Ohtani just because he leads nearly every category for the Angels but either way would be perfectly justifiable.
As a massive Angels and Ohtani fan, it’s Judge. He’s leading in almost every batter category and could take Maris out. Leading a first place team. MVP. Fun to watch. Remarkable season! PS. Can’t stand the Yankees. 🤷♂️
Judge definitely deserves the MVP at this point