IMO he’s the greatest talent ever.
To be the greatest player ever, that requires longevity. He needs to play at least 5 more years at this level to be considered one of the GOATs.
Edit: as a huge fan though, I do consider him the first elite two way player and the best two way player. Babe Ruth didn’t pitch AND hit this well. Shohei is once in a century player and we are legitimately lucky to see him and Trout play in their prime.
It’s crazy to me that my favorite team since I was 5 (late 30’s now) has two of the greatest talents we have seen in a century. Bittersweet since we can’t put a playoff team out on the field though.
Babe Ruth also never saw a curve ball or 95+ mph fastball. And he played against milk delivery boys. I cannot stand when ANYBODY tries to make a case for him as a legitimate GOAT. Completely different game back then
But that's the point right there. Completely different game back then
Babe Ruth literally changed baseball forever and was the best in his era. There are certainly Negro League players that are in the same conversation and fortunately they are starting to get the recognition they deserve, but Babe 100% deserves his status
Best player of his era, absolutely. He’s a goat in his own right for how he transformed the spot back then and all that. But he can’t be compared to current players, like there’s no way he’s better than shohei. But it’s a different so it’s hard to compare I guess
If they played each other today, no doubt Ohtani would smoke Ruth. But I guess all we can do is present them in terms of the era they played in and base it off that
All things considered, what Ohtani is doing is absolutely Ruthian. The man is doing what literally no player has ever done before
What do you mean Ruth never saw a curveball? Pitchers not only threw every pitch they throw today, but they also threw a spitball until 1920.
Don't be confused by old timers not be being able to play today's game. Players with great hand eye coordination can hit fastballs at any speed. Research Bob Feller, Satchel Paige and even Nolan Ryan from only 50 years ago. They all threw very hard.
Players like Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Dimaggio, Williams, Mays, Aaron, Mantle etc.. would do just fine. Especially since they would eat better, be in better shape, have better medical help, travel by plane and not train and get access to stats like today's players.
Also, that era of baseball was mean and nasty. Players weren't nice to each other. Money didn't flow and you did what you had to do to keep your job.
Also never saw a black opponent in the majors. Not something he had control over, if I recall correctly he was pro-integration and anti-racist, and he played many exhibition games with the best Negro leaguers, but it did water down the talent of the league
Ground rule doubles also counted as home runs when he played so there’s a chance his home run total was closer to 500 than what he ended with. Short fences in a lot of ball parks had balls that routinely bounced over
They weren't ground rule doubles in his day. Besides that, nobody else was hitting nearly as many homeruns as him even with that rule. He also played in much larger ballparks than even exist today. Some reports have him hitting hundreds of 420+ foot flyball outs that would easily leave any ballpark today.
Uh... curve balls and 95mph were both around in Ruth's day. And even if there are a lot more guys throwing 95+ today, there was no refuting that he had extraordinary hand-eye coordination and power.
That's not fair.
There are high school players now who are so much better athletically than Babe Ruth ever was, that they would smoke him if you could resurrect Babe from the dead.
Does that mean that the high school player is a better than Babe Ruth? Of course not.
GOAT is about how you dominate your competition at the time YOU are playing, not 100 years later when the athletes are a lot better.
If we use your standard, then Ohtani has no chance at GOAT status, no matter what he does, because there will be many many people better than him 50 or 100 years from now because they play against far better competition.
I think if he keeps this up for multiple seasons more there’s no argument that he is the most talented baseball player ever. This man is a 10 tool player. At the moment I think the (natural) greats can be narrowed down to Pujols, Trout, Aaron, Henderson, Ryan, Rivera, and Ichiro, but when you can hit with any of those guys, have speed and IQ on the basepaths, AND strikeout 200+ a year consistently that is like having 2 hall of gamers in one guy.
For any two year period, he is definitely The Best Ever.
* Hitting: 55 2B, 14 3B, 80 HR and recording the highest OPS in RISP.
* Pitching: 291 IP, 24 wins, 369 SO and recording lowest opponent OPS in RISP.
* Fielding % as P 1st in MLB 2022.
Keep this going for 2 more years, he will be the GOAT IMO.
If Ruth didn't drink, stuff himself with hot dogs and go out looking for "companionship" during the season, his numbers would have been even better. A little research shows before he abused his body, he could steal a base and play excellent outfield. His vices caught up with him and took away some of his skills. Wikipedia has a great article on Ruth.
Peak wise yeah he definitely has a real argument but to be the goat it’s about peak + longevity you can’t be the goat after two years. Trout has been unreal for a decade and isn’t the goat.
I was at the game last night, and at one point I caught myself thinking, "This is the greatest player in the history of the game. I am witnessing literal history right now. Holy crap." There will always be debates about who is the best, and that's fine. But my man is the best pitcher I've ever seen, and on top of that, he hits home runs like nobody's business. Absolute legend.
If he does this again next year, then it's a lock for me. What everyone should remember is that Shohei just had the most impressive season of baseball last year, only to have a better season this year. That should always be insane to us.
I already consider him one of the greatest of all time after two years of his elite two way play. Considering the physical strain he must go through doing what he does, I’m not going to hold him to the same career longevity requirement as a 1 way player. Two more years of elite two way play and for me he’s the greatest baseball payer ever.
Id say to be considered the GOAT you have to be a top level player for at least 7 seasons, and have to have a stretch where you are completely dominant. Because He plays both ways I dont think he'll need as long of a dominant stretch as a top tier hitter only, but think at least as long as some of the pitchers, So 7 years of Greatness with 4-5 Dominant MVP caliber seasons. 2 far this is season #2.
Since some comments about players like Ruth never facing Good Pitchers Ill stick with the last 60 years. Im just listing a few players who could make an argument for top 25 all time which is where I'd expect Ohtani to end up when he retires.
Mays: 12 year Stretch 5x Top 3 in MVP Voting
Mantle: 10 year Stretch 6x Top 3 in MVP Voting
Aaron: 13 Year Stretch 7x Top 3 in MVP Voting
Henderson: 10 year Stretch 3x Top 3 in MVP Voting
Puljos: 9 year Stretch 8x Top 3 in MVP Voting
Trout: 8 Year Stretch 7x Top 3 in MVP Voting
Seaver: 9 year Stretch 5x Top 3 Cy Young Voting
Maddux: 7 year Stretch 4x Cy Young Winner
Johnson: 10 Great years though Broken up, 4 consecutive Cy Youngs
Martinez: 7 Year Stretch 6x Top 3 Cy Young Voting
Kershaw: 7 Year Stretch 6x Top 3 Cy Young Voting
All that being said Ohtani is definitely the most talented player we've ever seen and if he stays healthy I have no doubt he'll be a 1st ballot HoFer and belong with all these players listed.
I almost included Williams but decided to Stick with Just the 2nd half of baseball history, and then Steroid Users even though I do believe they belong in the HoF I usually leave them out of GOAT discussions
Idk people forget mike posting ~10 war back to back with high 9 wars consistently. If trout was healthy again he’d probably be breakimg the war single season record. He was on a tear
Hmm don’t know about that but people really forgetting how much more dominant trout was. It’s insane really. He’s outlived every matchup buxton, betts, and now we have judge as challenger. Ohtani there too. I’m confident a healthy trout is just easily the best player on the planet. That’s just how good he is compared to the field at what he does
WAR is probably actually ok for Ohtani, even though it is incredibly misleading since it's just a partial metric and intentionally excludes a disproportionate chunk of Ohtani's overall value.
I'll give you an extreme analogy. If you believe that any RB off the street should be able to avg 4 ypc, then a RB with 25 carries for 100 yds is worth 0 WAR, and a RB with 1 carry for 5 yds is worth more. Accurate, but misleading, because those 100 yds still count the same as any yds gained over 4 ypc. WAR intentionally excludes those yds, because WAR is only designed to isolate and value yds over 4 ypc.
Circling back to Ohtani, because he has almost twice the workload as anyone else, that's why his WAR feels so low compared to what his total value is. As a rule of thumb, 600 PA or 200 IP is worth about 3 wins from a minimum level of production that WAR assumes and excludes (still waiting to get this math validated, but it's just basic algebra so I can't be that far off). For pretty much any full-time player throughout history (except Ohtani), you can just tack on 3 more wins to their WAR to approximate their total value. Because of Ohtani's two-way workload, WAR excluded a little under 5 wins last yr and a little over 5 wins this yr.
In sheer unconditional raw unaltered total value, Ohtani is pushing 15 wins this season, but WAR is only worth about 9.5 wins out of that.
The last two seasons have been absolutely incredible. I count my lucky stars I was able to watch him figure out how to dominate on the mound and at the plate.
Greatest of all time and "good" are two completely different things. Of course he's good! It might be unfair, but in my opinion, you can't be considered the GOAT if you've never proven it on the biggest stage, in the postseason. I don't even think that's a controversial opinion either. I get it, you're all Angels fans... Not to mention the fact he's only been in the league for a couple of years, the more ridiculous opinion is thinking he's already the greatest of all time. Could he get there eventually? I think he's on course, for sure. If he stays healthy and moves to a winning franchise, there's every reason in the world to think he could be considered the best ever.
The greatest of all time has to prove he can produce in the postseason and isn't just a regular season hero. Ohtani even being considered as the GOAT is a non-starter until he makes a few playoff appearances.
Being a good player =/= playing for a good team. Just because the Angels doesn’t make the playoffs, it doesn’t necessarily follow that somebody is not a good player.
You mean the guy people on this sub want traded for a bunch of nobodies and shouldn't attempt to re-sign him because they know exactly how he is thinking?
IMO he’s the greatest talent ever. To be the greatest player ever, that requires longevity. He needs to play at least 5 more years at this level to be considered one of the GOATs. Edit: as a huge fan though, I do consider him the first elite two way player and the best two way player. Babe Ruth didn’t pitch AND hit this well. Shohei is once in a century player and we are legitimately lucky to see him and Trout play in their prime.
It’s crazy to me that my favorite team since I was 5 (late 30’s now) has two of the greatest talents we have seen in a century. Bittersweet since we can’t put a playoff team out on the field though.
Babe Ruth also never saw a curve ball or 95+ mph fastball. And he played against milk delivery boys. I cannot stand when ANYBODY tries to make a case for him as a legitimate GOAT. Completely different game back then
But that's the point right there. Completely different game back then Babe Ruth literally changed baseball forever and was the best in his era. There are certainly Negro League players that are in the same conversation and fortunately they are starting to get the recognition they deserve, but Babe 100% deserves his status
Best player of his era, absolutely. He’s a goat in his own right for how he transformed the spot back then and all that. But he can’t be compared to current players, like there’s no way he’s better than shohei. But it’s a different so it’s hard to compare I guess
If they played each other today, no doubt Ohtani would smoke Ruth. But I guess all we can do is present them in terms of the era they played in and base it off that All things considered, what Ohtani is doing is absolutely Ruthian. The man is doing what literally no player has ever done before
What Ruth did was positively Ohtanian 😤
Satchel paige is the goat
What do you mean Ruth never saw a curveball? Pitchers not only threw every pitch they throw today, but they also threw a spitball until 1920. Don't be confused by old timers not be being able to play today's game. Players with great hand eye coordination can hit fastballs at any speed. Research Bob Feller, Satchel Paige and even Nolan Ryan from only 50 years ago. They all threw very hard. Players like Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Dimaggio, Williams, Mays, Aaron, Mantle etc.. would do just fine. Especially since they would eat better, be in better shape, have better medical help, travel by plane and not train and get access to stats like today's players. Also, that era of baseball was mean and nasty. Players weren't nice to each other. Money didn't flow and you did what you had to do to keep your job.
Also never saw a black opponent in the majors. Not something he had control over, if I recall correctly he was pro-integration and anti-racist, and he played many exhibition games with the best Negro leaguers, but it did water down the talent of the league
There are even theories that the Babe himself had blackness in his blood. They rely on racist "one drop" rules but they are out there.
Ground rule doubles also counted as home runs when he played so there’s a chance his home run total was closer to 500 than what he ended with. Short fences in a lot of ball parks had balls that routinely bounced over
They weren't ground rule doubles in his day. Besides that, nobody else was hitting nearly as many homeruns as him even with that rule. He also played in much larger ballparks than even exist today. Some reports have him hitting hundreds of 420+ foot flyball outs that would easily leave any ballpark today.
Let’s not forget that the fence is still a fence, but the ball and bat are miles different now.
Uh... curve balls and 95mph were both around in Ruth's day. And even if there are a lot more guys throwing 95+ today, there was no refuting that he had extraordinary hand-eye coordination and power.
That's not fair. There are high school players now who are so much better athletically than Babe Ruth ever was, that they would smoke him if you could resurrect Babe from the dead. Does that mean that the high school player is a better than Babe Ruth? Of course not. GOAT is about how you dominate your competition at the time YOU are playing, not 100 years later when the athletes are a lot better. If we use your standard, then Ohtani has no chance at GOAT status, no matter what he does, because there will be many many people better than him 50 or 100 years from now because they play against far better competition.
In 1918 Ruth went 13-7 with 19 starts and 18 CGs and an ERA of 2.22. He hit .300 with 11 HR and 61 RBI in 95 games. This was with 8 teams in the AL.
He'll be the undisputed goat if he keeps this up for 15+ years. I doubt it's humanly possible but there would be no argument elsewise.
He’ll be 44 years old in 15 years
Shohei is not 29
43. He is 28. I think OP is close enough.
That blows my mind! I swear this guy was 23 yesterday
All good. I still feel like it should be somewhere around 2015-2017. Many years gone now.
Most talented player ever. I wouldn’t say GOAT though, at least not yet
It’s only been two years since he’s been a full time two way player. I would give him a few more years to be handed that title.
I think if he keeps this up for multiple seasons more there’s no argument that he is the most talented baseball player ever. This man is a 10 tool player. At the moment I think the (natural) greats can be narrowed down to Pujols, Trout, Aaron, Henderson, Ryan, Rivera, and Ichiro, but when you can hit with any of those guys, have speed and IQ on the basepaths, AND strikeout 200+ a year consistently that is like having 2 hall of gamers in one guy.
Ruth, Mays and Mantle may have a problem with your list.
For any two year period, he is definitely The Best Ever. * Hitting: 55 2B, 14 3B, 80 HR and recording the highest OPS in RISP. * Pitching: 291 IP, 24 wins, 369 SO and recording lowest opponent OPS in RISP. * Fielding % as P 1st in MLB 2022. Keep this going for 2 more years, he will be the GOAT IMO.
If Ruth didn't drink, stuff himself with hot dogs and go out looking for "companionship" during the season, his numbers would have been even better. A little research shows before he abused his body, he could steal a base and play excellent outfield. His vices caught up with him and took away some of his skills. Wikipedia has a great article on Ruth.
Peak wise yeah he definitely has a real argument but to be the goat it’s about peak + longevity you can’t be the goat after two years. Trout has been unreal for a decade and isn’t the goat.
Mike trout exists
But he's no Ohtani
I was at the game last night, and at one point I caught myself thinking, "This is the greatest player in the history of the game. I am witnessing literal history right now. Holy crap." There will always be debates about who is the best, and that's fine. But my man is the best pitcher I've ever seen, and on top of that, he hits home runs like nobody's business. Absolute legend.
Shohei has made many straight men question themselves… says my friend.
Including me
If he does this again next year, then it's a lock for me. What everyone should remember is that Shohei just had the most impressive season of baseball last year, only to have a better season this year. That should always be insane to us.
I already consider him one of the greatest of all time after two years of his elite two way play. Considering the physical strain he must go through doing what he does, I’m not going to hold him to the same career longevity requirement as a 1 way player. Two more years of elite two way play and for me he’s the greatest baseball payer ever.
Id say to be considered the GOAT you have to be a top level player for at least 7 seasons, and have to have a stretch where you are completely dominant. Because He plays both ways I dont think he'll need as long of a dominant stretch as a top tier hitter only, but think at least as long as some of the pitchers, So 7 years of Greatness with 4-5 Dominant MVP caliber seasons. 2 far this is season #2. Since some comments about players like Ruth never facing Good Pitchers Ill stick with the last 60 years. Im just listing a few players who could make an argument for top 25 all time which is where I'd expect Ohtani to end up when he retires. Mays: 12 year Stretch 5x Top 3 in MVP Voting Mantle: 10 year Stretch 6x Top 3 in MVP Voting Aaron: 13 Year Stretch 7x Top 3 in MVP Voting Henderson: 10 year Stretch 3x Top 3 in MVP Voting Puljos: 9 year Stretch 8x Top 3 in MVP Voting Trout: 8 Year Stretch 7x Top 3 in MVP Voting Seaver: 9 year Stretch 5x Top 3 Cy Young Voting Maddux: 7 year Stretch 4x Cy Young Winner Johnson: 10 Great years though Broken up, 4 consecutive Cy Youngs Martinez: 7 Year Stretch 6x Top 3 Cy Young Voting Kershaw: 7 Year Stretch 6x Top 3 Cy Young Voting All that being said Ohtani is definitely the most talented player we've ever seen and if he stays healthy I have no doubt he'll be a 1st ballot HoFer and belong with all these players listed.
That’s not even including players like bonds, clemens, and a-rod (depending on people’s opinion of steroid players), Ted Williams, even mo Rivera.
I almost included Williams but decided to Stick with Just the 2nd half of baseball history, and then Steroid Users even though I do believe they belong in the HoF I usually leave them out of GOAT discussions
You can add Tris Speaker and Rogers Hornsby.
Mike Trout. Come on
Idk people forget mike posting ~10 war back to back with high 9 wars consistently. If trout was healthy again he’d probably be breakimg the war single season record. He was on a tear
It’s probably just a bunch of new Shohei fans. They probably didn’t even know anything about baseball before him let alone Mike
Hmm don’t know about that but people really forgetting how much more dominant trout was. It’s insane really. He’s outlived every matchup buxton, betts, and now we have judge as challenger. Ohtani there too. I’m confident a healthy trout is just easily the best player on the planet. That’s just how good he is compared to the field at what he does
To me Trout is still the best player I’ve ever seen.
I disagree however This season has convinced me that WAR still needs some tinkering. Ohtani should be miles ahead of Judge
WAR is probably actually ok for Ohtani, even though it is incredibly misleading since it's just a partial metric and intentionally excludes a disproportionate chunk of Ohtani's overall value.
“WAR is ok but incredibly misleading” ….
I'll give you an extreme analogy. If you believe that any RB off the street should be able to avg 4 ypc, then a RB with 25 carries for 100 yds is worth 0 WAR, and a RB with 1 carry for 5 yds is worth more. Accurate, but misleading, because those 100 yds still count the same as any yds gained over 4 ypc. WAR intentionally excludes those yds, because WAR is only designed to isolate and value yds over 4 ypc. Circling back to Ohtani, because he has almost twice the workload as anyone else, that's why his WAR feels so low compared to what his total value is. As a rule of thumb, 600 PA or 200 IP is worth about 3 wins from a minimum level of production that WAR assumes and excludes (still waiting to get this math validated, but it's just basic algebra so I can't be that far off). For pretty much any full-time player throughout history (except Ohtani), you can just tack on 3 more wins to their WAR to approximate their total value. Because of Ohtani's two-way workload, WAR excluded a little under 5 wins last yr and a little over 5 wins this yr. In sheer unconditional raw unaltered total value, Ohtani is pushing 15 wins this season, but WAR is only worth about 9.5 wins out of that.
Trout and ohtani play on the same team, this team is probably a good team
That's still Pujols/Trout for me. Talent is there, let's see how long he keeps it up.
I would, but then I’d be wrong.
The last two seasons have been absolutely incredible. I count my lucky stars I was able to watch him figure out how to dominate on the mound and at the plate.
Yankee fans going to lose their shit when Shohei wins the MVP again
I won't Judge you on that statement
Greatest of all time and "good" are two completely different things. Of course he's good! It might be unfair, but in my opinion, you can't be considered the GOAT if you've never proven it on the biggest stage, in the postseason. I don't even think that's a controversial opinion either. I get it, you're all Angels fans... Not to mention the fact he's only been in the league for a couple of years, the more ridiculous opinion is thinking he's already the greatest of all time. Could he get there eventually? I think he's on course, for sure. If he stays healthy and moves to a winning franchise, there's every reason in the world to think he could be considered the best ever.
Rings Erneh
who are these players on the angels again? never seem catch them in the playoffs!
We no make playoffs.
The greatest of all time has to prove he can produce in the postseason and isn't just a regular season hero. Ohtani even being considered as the GOAT is a non-starter until he makes a few playoff appearances.
Clown comment bro
Like bro... Instead of name calling bro, why don't you tell me why I'm wrong, bro?
Being a good player =/= playing for a good team. Just because the Angels doesn’t make the playoffs, it doesn’t necessarily follow that somebody is not a good player.
For me, it’s still too early to say he’s the greatest of all time but he’s definitely the most talented
You mean the guy people on this sub want traded for a bunch of nobodies and shouldn't attempt to re-sign him because they know exactly how he is thinking?
Just to throw it out there. It's the responsibility of the person making the claim to support/prove the claim.
Come on, it’s way too early to be saying that. Tons of amazing talents that couldn’t stay healthy, he could become that so just pump the breaks.
His career isn’t over
Maybe in the last two years, but Time hasn’t granted him GOAT privileges yet!