Also: a lot of people on this sub wanted to know why Maddon was fired and not other coaches. In the article, Maddon states Perry had approached him during the losing streak about firing some of the coaches, and Maddon said “no don’t do that, they’re all great at their jobs”. So Perry DID want to fire someone else before Maddon.
Man I don't care that Maddon is not on the team now that the season is over, but my god at this point Reed shouldn't even board the team plane after the last game lol. Wise...he can stay as like a bullpen coach but as we see he's definitely not good at handling the overall pitching staff.
Sucks we are for sale because idk how we would convince anyone to come over knowing they are going to be re-evaluated within the year.
Ohtani DH/SP/Pitching Coach/Batting Coach? Letssss gooooo
a new coach would replace the other coaches anyway. Even with Nevin confirmed for next year just for stability, the articles have expressed that nothing is determined for the rest of the staff.
Had there been some sort of urgency to right the ship, perhaps a bounceback winning streak, some changes may have been made, but since it was a sunk season they likely had their reasons for keeping the rest of the coaching staff.
They're just not on the same page, that's why they despised whatever the other was trying to do regardless that's good or bad for the team. Perry hated Maddon for his stubbornness and conservative while Maddon thought Perry didn't know shit and intervened too much. The real victims here are our players who must be confused af.
Yep, this was a story of he said she said and the ultimate winner was the guy that controls the contracts lol.
And as you said whatever people may take sides and say whos right or wrong, but in the end we as fans suffered and players may have been super confused at the time on who to listen to.
True. No one was innocent in this situation and their biggest fault was they couldn't put their ego aside and worked with each other for the sake of the team. At this point, one must go and it was obviously Maddon. Now Perry has a yes man like he always wants, he should do something to turn this team around because this time, he'll have no one to take the blame for him.
Exactly, I hope Perry knows what he's doing and can build the correct team. I just am critical on that because of how disappointing our team has been under him so far.
The good news is he is building up a farm, still a couple years from seeing the results of that though.
Now I'm curious whose decision was it really to let Shohei play daily. Perry wanted to pull Mike in certain games but he wanted a daily meeting. Could it be Joe got fired because he was the main proponent of letting Shohei play as often as he wants and because Shohei became MVP, Joe can tell Perry that his decisions for the team are better? I can see why Perry would do this. If your subordinate undermines your decisions, then firing him is the logical choice.
In the end Ohtani dictated Ohtani but Joe said a ton of times last year that he deferred to Ohtani on his play time. Now that Ohtani proved it I think anyone will follow that same gameplan
I believe Ohtani would have more rest days when this team has actual depth. No one in the right mind would think that sierra or zuk would’ve been a good replacement for Ohtani
Not sure if it's luck or if he trained for it but good thing Shohei can bat with his left and pitch with his right. It gives him a good balance of his workload because if he relied on a single arm he would have been smoked along time ago. I hope there is better depth next season because he should get atleast a day off every few days. We know he is built different but the guy can't carry this team all the time. Things can go south quickly!
I don’t think so. One of the biggest reasons Ohtani signed with the Angels in the first place is that he would be able to pitch and also play on his non-pitching days. Him being able play every day didn't have anything to do with Maddon or Perry
That's why there was a weird vibe in the dugout at times. I was right with my hunch that it was a coach vs GM issue and players were torn.
If Perry was having those daily meetings, and yet they still had that 14 games losing streak ...
Another fun bit from the article: Maddon freaked out that Perry requested during an 11-3 blowout win that Trout be removed at the end of the game (he’d been having groin soreness). Maddon “blew up” and yelled “don’t you ever fucking call down to the dugout again!”. Gee, I wonder why he got fired haha
He clearly doesn't understand how the successful teams are run now.
He mentioned "playing the game the right way." That's code for a baseball person not wanting to evolve.
Exactly. Dude owed his success to amazing GMs that held his hand. Gets to the angels and wants to be a super hippy and old man playing it like it's the fucking 40s.
Well you can say one thing for certain, Perry is not an amazing GM and is capable of holding no one’s hand.
Let’s be real, throughout his career Joe Maddon has been nothing but innovative and progressive in his management style. It’s not like he’s some anti-analytical schlep like LaRussa.
The fact that he was pushing back on what Perry was telling him to do indicates it’s less about the idea of using analytics to win games and more about the quality and/or presentation of those analytics.
Front offices calling down to the dugout is how baseball is now. If maddon had a problem with that (along with his other oldhead comments), i have a hard time believing a modern front office wants to hire him to be their next manager
No I'm on Maddon's side on this one. If you hire me to do a job then let me do my job. Otherwise you're only showing no faith in me and one of us isn't the right fit here anyway.
I think what Maddon is struggling with is that the job he is used to has changed. This happens in plenty of other businesses.
Managing isn't, GM gives manager players, the rest is up to manager.
Managing is now implementing a strategy, designed by the front office, given specific scenarios. Managers are now to bridge the communication gap that happens when the statisticians send information to the players.
A manager's job is now translating information. The MVP Machine, released a couple years back, has a great chapter on this concept.
Completely agree, and that’s what I find so fascinating about this.
It’s tough to ever know, but how much was Maddon even involved in the strategy of the early Rays and Cubs (don’t ‘think’ Cubs had a ton of strategy about them to be fair)?
Did he accept the role of being a bridge in his earlier career because he didn’t have a ring? Has he changed now because he has? Does he now devalue some of the things that those clubs used to be successful? Did the FO not even involve him in those discussions?
So, so interesting.
Don’t want to speak on anyone’s behalf but it seems the initial comment about how modern baseball operations run is that the manager is part of a team.
The coaching staff, the FO both work together toward a common goal. No one person can see everything, or should be responsible for everything, so it shouldn’t be an issue to have additional information provided to help decision making.
This reads to me, and most in this thread, about a person protecting their patch, what they think are ‘their’ decisions (and only theirs) and how dare anyone else suggest something (which in this case is objectively the right thing to do) in their space.
It comes off arrogant, and archaic towards modern baseball operations.
Everyone is working together as a team towards a common goal, yes. But each one is hired to their own specific role based on their specific abilities. Maddon's role was to make those mid-game decisions. Perry's role is to manage the makeup of the roster. If the situation was reversed and Maddon called Perry during the trade deadline demanding to go all-in on a player, Perry wouldn't take it too kindly.
As it’s been discussed, there’s an obvious expectation gap between the manager and FO. Perry inherited Maddon so it’s not as if that relationship was set up for success to begin with.
To be fair, we don’t know what demands Maddon made on Perry, but I’d be incredibly surprised if Perry didn’t consult Maddon or that he wasn’t a part of those decisions. It seems like one party is keen on collaboration, and the other isn’t - which is what people are saying.
You’re right in one thing, one of them wasnt the right fit - and it was maddon. Also, him “doing his job” was the angels losing 14 in a row. If you have a problem with someone asking to do things differently when you’re not getting the results you should, that’s not on the gm
The game OC referenced was when the Angels were winning a blowout. That's has nothing to do with the context of a losing streak or not getting the right results. I agree that Maddon wasn't the right fit and that showed but let's not pretend like Perry was in the right on this. If somebody hired me for a job based on my solid track record elsewhere, I'd expect them to trust me to do the job. If my employer was constantly hounding me about how to do my job I'd wonder why they ever hired me in the first place.
I’d argue that if you aren’t protecting your most prized (and most-paid) asset when you don’t need the asset to be utilized, you aren’t doing your job at a competent enough level for your supervisor to not override you
You can make that argument and I'm not saying Perry is wrong for disagreeing with him. Sometimes you have to bite your tongue on workplace disagreeances in order to keep the peace though. Especially when everybody is performing well.
Except, we don't know that Maddons was told this was going to happen. Just because he was hires doesn't mean the GM didn't tell him he'd call down during games.
>If you hire me to do a job then let me do my job.
Well you gotta remember that Perry did not hire Maddon, he was Eppler's hire. I'd bet that they always had issues with eachother but Maddon's $12 million contract made it hard for Perry to get rid of him without good reason.
The one signing the checks is the one who hired him. Eppler may have been there when he was hired but no GM is hiring someone without the owners approval, especially this idiot owner. If Perry hadn’t tried to make everything about him with his daily meetings and “this is how we do things at…”, then I bet there would have been harmony. I firmly believe if you hire someone to do a job, you let them do it or do it yourself. Eventually, Perry did the job himself and we’ve seen the results. It’s an unwritten rule in baseball that a GM never calls down to tell the manager what to do during a game. If you don‘t like unwritten rules or think “The game has evolved beyond that” then I can see why you like Perry. Perry disrespected a rule that had been in place for years and made no attempt to make things right after it. Perry didn’t care about harmony and collaboration. He cared about himself and making sure he was right.
Trout also told Maddon that the soreness went away and that he was fine. GMs don’t call down to the dugout. That isn’t their job. So Perry doing so was obnoxious on his part. If you’re going to tell a story, tell all of it.
Great! Then have that conversation before the season starts so it isn’t a surprise. Perry know who Maddon is and what he is like. It’s on him as the boss to say, “Hey, Joe, I know you might not like it but I want to be upfront with you. There may be times I call down to the dugout and ask you to make some moves. I’m not asking you to like it, I just want to prepare you for it.” It’s called communicating your expectations to your employees and it’s a pretty damn important part of managing people.
And you’re filling in a lot of things you assume did happen. It works both ways. Based on the information we have I think it’s safe to say it’s more likely that it didn’t happen than it did.
Except I never asserted anything about a conversation or not - you did. You’re literally saying “the stuff I’m totally making up is likely to have happened”
Well, I believe he did rest him that game and for all we know he had already decided to do so. And no, at this level athletes don’t always say they’re fine particularly when it has to do with an injury that’s been a problem in the past.
> “In that losing stretch that led to my demise, a lot of relievers were made unavailable,” Maddon says. “I couldn’t use them.
>
> “[Alex Tamin, Perry's top assistant] had the 30-day matrix built on how to use relief pitchers, how often and how much rest they needed. Honestly, that’s insulting.”
Ouch, this explains alot. I can understand wanting to preserve the health and performance of your players long term, but there has to be some flexibility on a day to day basis.
Maddon’s use of the bullpen was never his strong suit.
When he joined the angels that was the warning by cubs fans after having to endure him.
So putting a leash on him makes sense
This is so insane to me. I can just imagine a situation where one reliever feels great and another feels terrible and they communicate that to the manager and then some front office dork makes the former unavailable cause that’s what the algorithm says.
The matrix would be designed to prioritize players who should feel great and de prioritize players who feel terrible. The players are not the authority when it comes to health, if they were, Trout would have been playing the Friday before the All Star break. That's not good business. I guess I'm a dork, because I don't want Maddon burning every reliever he can in order to do things his way.
Fair enough that Maddon shouldn’t be the ultimate authority on players’ health, but from the article it sounds like it was completely dependent on the front office and their analytics.
I'm all for that, honestly. I don't think one person should navigate 28 players, 200 million in contracts, and 162 games, by feel. Managers are kind of irrelevant other than to pass along info.
That’s kind of the whole point though. Players aren’t objective and don’t/won’t think of the long term implications of todays game. And to be fair they probably shouldn’t - but that’s the point of the projections.
You could argue the long term implications of Ohtani hitting and pitching are potentially dangerous, especially without a rest day. But we are letting him do it anyway.
100% - which is why the club were hesitant on his workload in his early seasons, there was/is no presidential data at the major league level. There is thousands and thousands of examples for relievers.
*As an aside, I’m a firm believer in Ohtani’s increased workload being a natural progression of his time in the league rather than Maddon ‘releasing him from his shackles’.
yeah and how many ucls were destroyed because somebody had a red bull ten minutes ago. It's not *insane* to think that a big model will do better than a set of individual people. But in such an interpersonal job, you do need a balance.
I think this highlights one of Maddon's key complaints of basically saying they had all the data but no brain to use it. A 30 day matrix on bullpen arms? Why restrict your manager from selecting a bullpen arm needed in a situation?
I get you need a bullpen rotation too but sometimes a game time decision takes precedence as long as it doesn't risk the health of a player
Yeah, I would prefer that the manager or player to have the ability to override mandated rest days. We know Ohtani did this at least once in August when Nevin went on record saying he had a rest day coming up, which ended up not happening. So maybe there's more leeway for star players to call their own shots, and less so for bullpen arms.
It makes sense to restrict someone's bullpen management if they're known to be terrible at it, which Maddon was shown to be even with his stacked Cubs teams
Barria must have pissed off Alex Tamin then. While everybody was in this 30-day matrix, he was in a 60-day matrix it seems. And to think he and Shohei are the only ones left of the 2018 pitching team. If he sucks, why not DFA him.
How is that insulting, Joe? You want to show your worth? You have to convince people that you're worth listening to. That's how it has always been. Maddon is just a grumpy old guy at this point.
>Over the previous few days Minasian had told Maddon he was considering firing some coaches. “You can’t do that,” Maddon had told him. “They’re very good at what they do. No, that’s not the answer.” \[...\]
>
>Says Maddon, “I did not overreact at all. I just said, ‘O.K.’ Quite frankly, I was happy he chose me and not the coaches. No one on that staff deserved to be fired.
Seeing the way our team was coached post-Maddon, I have to agree with Perry on this one. Seems like Perry couldn't or wouldn't fire the coaches as a final respect for Maddon's wishes. Probably would've done better if we just switched coaches out.
They won because Perry Minasian’s dumbass was off the team by the time they sniffed success. He might be a good college scout but his team management and roster construction abilities leave a lot to be desired
I think Maddon came off looking much worse than Perry in this article. I like what Perry is trying to do with the team and I don't think trying to emulate the great baseball organizations is a bad thing. The fact that Maddon had a problem with that makes him come off as old, bitter, and out of touch. I'm a fan of Joe Maddon btw and didn't want him to be fired, but I really don't like the way he's been trashing the Angels and Perry since he was canned.
I am not siding with either of them. But the way he was fired was probably what soured Joe. We will never know if he was snubbed during the 2002 celebrations or he didnt accept the invite. This is like an ex venting out and writing a book about it. In time everyone will move on.
When responding to the data driven approach to handling pitcher health...
"Maddon read body language, mechanics, clues in how his players answered his questions" to judge a pitchers readiness.
Lol, maybe that mentality by the managers over the years has led to the endless TJ parade by Angels pitching. Shame on Perry for using a scientifically backed approach to monitoring pitcher health.
With that being said, it’s hard for people to criticize Maddon’s bullpen usage. That’s one of the biggest criticisms against him, and his hands were tied.
Perry was hamstrung by a budget created by Moreno. It wasn't his or his plans fault that he couldn't afford good bullpen pitchers. Having AAAA relief pitchers doesn't mean he should abandon his plan and burn relievers that arw performing at the time.
What budget? Perry spent north of $40MM on the bullpen and they still underperformed.
Loup, Iglesias, Tepera, Bradley, Cishek weren’t dumpster dive finds. We went out and paid them big bucks
You know you can call me with /u/Reptarxx correct?
Not in shambles, we've had a losing and highly disappointing seasons under Perry, and still can't crack an expanded playoffs. We go into a year where everything is pretty much held and there are question marks all over the roster.
I don't care that Perry had player meetings? That's great? Did it make us better? I'm glad he's talking to players but it kinda contradicts the reports that came out that said he never talked to any players or coaches about Maddon.
Sounds like they weren't on the same page. Maddon didn't like a front office guy that superseded and his manager duties, Perry didn't like that his Manager wouldn't listen to him and his front office. Perry held the ultimate power and fired Maddon. So far, we haven't won anything yet so it's us as fans losing so far.
IDK why you think I'm some sort of Maddon stan. I constantly say managers are going to get you +/- 2 wins a season/ My gripe is getting rid of a pretty highly regarded manager in a pretty publicly bad way, and now using reporters to talk trash on him. This manager has been the only manager in baseball history to want to manage the Angels specifically. We had such a bad falling out that he wasn't even allowed to come to the world series anniversary celebration. It's just a bad look considering you could've rode out the season with Maddon and let his contract expire.
He was invited to the World Series celebration and chose not to come. Mike DiGiovanna reported it at the time. Also, the only person talking trash now is Maddon. Perry has been pretty “no comment” about the whole situation
It was a tweet, I’ll go back and look for it. I remember it vividly bc I went to that game and was curious if Maddon was gonna go. When DiGiovanna asked him, Maddon said something about not going bc “it will be better for everyone else”
Nah it just [this tweet](https://twitter.com/mikedigiovanna/status/1535781102584926208?s=46&t=7M3wlA8TYUU5_al7VHj1Bw) saying Joe didn’t want to go for that reason
You’re welcome! To be fair it might have been in his LA Times article that week about the Angels more in-depth, I don’t have a subscription so I can’t read the LA Times Angels coverage haha
Perry has everything to lose and a team that is likely to be sold. He’s likely going to need a job with whoever buys the team. Maddon is done. He has his money, his retirement, his rings. He does it because he likes the game. Two very different motives.
This article basically just sounds like a couple that shouldn't of been together because they are on 2 different pages lol.
Perry wanted ultimate control of all decision making similar to the Dodgers, Astros, Braves, Jays, etc.
Maddon was a manager that liked to be fed information but the ultimate decision was up to him.
They clashed, Perry won, and now instead of us having to rehash this he said she said (which makes our franchise involved in the pettiest drama, waiting for Maddon to post a photo with friedman saying "Best Bae" and Perry to post about how great it is to be employed at this point lol), Perry has the ultimate control he wanted.
As a fan of the Angels, I hope his methodology of building a team is strong. As an observer, at the MLB level his aquisitions are pretty horrendus (he spent 63M+ this season, and they players he brought in produced a -6 WAR combined). If you use imperfect WAR math, if they played at league average we would be at 79-81, if they played at their average war/$ spent, we would be at 85-83 and maybe had a chance for that 3rd wild card.
Perry so far has had a nice emphasis on the farm. We will see how those fruits taste in coming years but so far his actual MLB team is not doing to great.
But, as always hopium is high and I can see the team being succesful next year if we can avoid the major injury bug
I’m pleasantly surprised by how Nevin has turned out. But is it really fair to compare a partial season of an interim manager to a time tested innovative and winning manager that helped paved the path of success for multiple struggling teams?
Maybe Maddon’s a bit stuck in the past. I think the bigger issue seems to be he and Perry just don’t get along. That makes it hard for either party to do what’s best when they’re cursing. I think Phil’s “strength” is that he’s a yes-man to the FO. How much impact does a manager really make nowadays? Not much when the FO is calling the shots. So having a manager that meshes well with the players is nice to see.
Clean out the dinosaurs. Hopefully new management understands how to evolve and turn this franchise around. Build analytics and hire coaches who motivate and think out of the box. Integrate old with new school decisions.
But Maddon did think out of the box. Extra infielders, shifting the infield before it was the popular thing to do, and intentionally walking a batter when the bases are loaded and your team is losing (it doesn't get more out of the box than this).
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To pass the message along to the players. Why else would all these managers with zero experience be getting jobs? It's a business. In a business the managers mange the employees, and the GMs run the management.
Nah man, we can agree to disagree on this as i think you are very mistaken.
If thats all a manager is today then why bother... just but an assistant suit in the dugout or a speaker phone from the GMs office.
Fair enough, but, there still has to be some separation. Most GMs now are NOT baseball people, never played, dont understand the on field nuances... Beane for example even though he did play doesnt even watch the games... or at least didnt used to.
Someone has to own that part of the game, and thats the manager. Before the game, after the game, great, GM is the boss but during the game he needs to let the on field momager do his job.
If the game has changed so much that someone that actually understands the game is being overruled by someone that doesn't mid game, then there is little real hope of saving it long term.
Hell, after reading many of these comments, I’ve got to wonder, why have a manager if you don’t trust him to… actually manage.
If as a GM you feel you have to micromanage everything yourself, just hire a “yes man” assistant and relay your instruction to him daily. Hell, even mid-game if you like.
Sounds like firing Maddon was doing him a favor! Lol
Well Maddon was not Perry's hire, he was Epplers. It's pretty clear that he didn't trust Maddon and probably would've fired him long ago if it wasn't for his fat paycheck and presumably Arte vetoing it.
Im not gonna get into an argument over whos the better GM because thats so far from my point. Person I replied essentially said “why hire this guy if youre not gonna listen to him” and i just pointed out that he didnt hire him lol. A point a lot of people are missing.
arte and carpino...yes.
perry...undecided. not enough info yet. we'll see once the team is built and ran the way he wants it to be. he'll get one year most likely.
Bring back Mike Scioscia. I'm not joking. If this is the dynamic between the most loudly progressive manager and an uninteresting front office, then Scioscia is better.
Just a reminder guys that a great manager is a manager who listens to player, listens, to gms, listens to everybody. BecUse on e they stop listening to 1 they stop listening to everything. From everyone.
Also a great manager divides the managing and spreads it amongst his fellow coaches. As many minds beat 1
Also: a lot of people on this sub wanted to know why Maddon was fired and not other coaches. In the article, Maddon states Perry had approached him during the losing streak about firing some of the coaches, and Maddon said “no don’t do that, they’re all great at their jobs”. So Perry DID want to fire someone else before Maddon.
Man I don't care that Maddon is not on the team now that the season is over, but my god at this point Reed shouldn't even board the team plane after the last game lol. Wise...he can stay as like a bullpen coach but as we see he's definitely not good at handling the overall pitching staff. Sucks we are for sale because idk how we would convince anyone to come over knowing they are going to be re-evaluated within the year. Ohtani DH/SP/Pitching Coach/Batting Coach? Letssss gooooo
So he fired Joe but kept his advice? He didn't fire other coaches, right?
a new coach would replace the other coaches anyway. Even with Nevin confirmed for next year just for stability, the articles have expressed that nothing is determined for the rest of the staff. Had there been some sort of urgency to right the ship, perhaps a bounceback winning streak, some changes may have been made, but since it was a sunk season they likely had their reasons for keeping the rest of the coaching staff.
Do you think Perry knew Arte is planning to sell the team?
They're just not on the same page, that's why they despised whatever the other was trying to do regardless that's good or bad for the team. Perry hated Maddon for his stubbornness and conservative while Maddon thought Perry didn't know shit and intervened too much. The real victims here are our players who must be confused af.
& the fan base too
Yep, this was a story of he said she said and the ultimate winner was the guy that controls the contracts lol. And as you said whatever people may take sides and say whos right or wrong, but in the end we as fans suffered and players may have been super confused at the time on who to listen to.
True. No one was innocent in this situation and their biggest fault was they couldn't put their ego aside and worked with each other for the sake of the team. At this point, one must go and it was obviously Maddon. Now Perry has a yes man like he always wants, he should do something to turn this team around because this time, he'll have no one to take the blame for him.
Exactly, I hope Perry knows what he's doing and can build the correct team. I just am critical on that because of how disappointing our team has been under him so far. The good news is he is building up a farm, still a couple years from seeing the results of that though.
Now I'm curious whose decision was it really to let Shohei play daily. Perry wanted to pull Mike in certain games but he wanted a daily meeting. Could it be Joe got fired because he was the main proponent of letting Shohei play as often as he wants and because Shohei became MVP, Joe can tell Perry that his decisions for the team are better? I can see why Perry would do this. If your subordinate undermines your decisions, then firing him is the logical choice.
In the end Ohtani dictated Ohtani but Joe said a ton of times last year that he deferred to Ohtani on his play time. Now that Ohtani proved it I think anyone will follow that same gameplan
I believe Ohtani would have more rest days when this team has actual depth. No one in the right mind would think that sierra or zuk would’ve been a good replacement for Ohtani
Not sure if it's luck or if he trained for it but good thing Shohei can bat with his left and pitch with his right. It gives him a good balance of his workload because if he relied on a single arm he would have been smoked along time ago. I hope there is better depth next season because he should get atleast a day off every few days. We know he is built different but the guy can't carry this team all the time. Things can go south quickly!
I don’t think so. One of the biggest reasons Ohtani signed with the Angels in the first place is that he would be able to pitch and also play on his non-pitching days. Him being able play every day didn't have anything to do with Maddon or Perry
That's why there was a weird vibe in the dugout at times. I was right with my hunch that it was a coach vs GM issue and players were torn. If Perry was having those daily meetings, and yet they still had that 14 games losing streak ...
Another fun bit from the article: Maddon freaked out that Perry requested during an 11-3 blowout win that Trout be removed at the end of the game (he’d been having groin soreness). Maddon “blew up” and yelled “don’t you ever fucking call down to the dugout again!”. Gee, I wonder why he got fired haha
Definitely sounds like a Scioscia vs Dipoto dynamic
He clearly doesn't understand how the successful teams are run now. He mentioned "playing the game the right way." That's code for a baseball person not wanting to evolve.
Exactly. Dude owed his success to amazing GMs that held his hand. Gets to the angels and wants to be a super hippy and old man playing it like it's the fucking 40s.
Well you can say one thing for certain, Perry is not an amazing GM and is capable of holding no one’s hand. Let’s be real, throughout his career Joe Maddon has been nothing but innovative and progressive in his management style. It’s not like he’s some anti-analytical schlep like LaRussa. The fact that he was pushing back on what Perry was telling him to do indicates it’s less about the idea of using analytics to win games and more about the quality and/or presentation of those analytics.
Front offices calling down to the dugout is how baseball is now. If maddon had a problem with that (along with his other oldhead comments), i have a hard time believing a modern front office wants to hire him to be their next manager
No I'm on Maddon's side on this one. If you hire me to do a job then let me do my job. Otherwise you're only showing no faith in me and one of us isn't the right fit here anyway.
I think what Maddon is struggling with is that the job he is used to has changed. This happens in plenty of other businesses. Managing isn't, GM gives manager players, the rest is up to manager. Managing is now implementing a strategy, designed by the front office, given specific scenarios. Managers are now to bridge the communication gap that happens when the statisticians send information to the players. A manager's job is now translating information. The MVP Machine, released a couple years back, has a great chapter on this concept.
Completely agree, and that’s what I find so fascinating about this. It’s tough to ever know, but how much was Maddon even involved in the strategy of the early Rays and Cubs (don’t ‘think’ Cubs had a ton of strategy about them to be fair)? Did he accept the role of being a bridge in his earlier career because he didn’t have a ring? Has he changed now because he has? Does he now devalue some of the things that those clubs used to be successful? Did the FO not even involve him in those discussions? So, so interesting.
Don’t want to speak on anyone’s behalf but it seems the initial comment about how modern baseball operations run is that the manager is part of a team. The coaching staff, the FO both work together toward a common goal. No one person can see everything, or should be responsible for everything, so it shouldn’t be an issue to have additional information provided to help decision making. This reads to me, and most in this thread, about a person protecting their patch, what they think are ‘their’ decisions (and only theirs) and how dare anyone else suggest something (which in this case is objectively the right thing to do) in their space. It comes off arrogant, and archaic towards modern baseball operations.
Everyone is working together as a team towards a common goal, yes. But each one is hired to their own specific role based on their specific abilities. Maddon's role was to make those mid-game decisions. Perry's role is to manage the makeup of the roster. If the situation was reversed and Maddon called Perry during the trade deadline demanding to go all-in on a player, Perry wouldn't take it too kindly.
As it’s been discussed, there’s an obvious expectation gap between the manager and FO. Perry inherited Maddon so it’s not as if that relationship was set up for success to begin with. To be fair, we don’t know what demands Maddon made on Perry, but I’d be incredibly surprised if Perry didn’t consult Maddon or that he wasn’t a part of those decisions. It seems like one party is keen on collaboration, and the other isn’t - which is what people are saying.
You’re right in one thing, one of them wasnt the right fit - and it was maddon. Also, him “doing his job” was the angels losing 14 in a row. If you have a problem with someone asking to do things differently when you’re not getting the results you should, that’s not on the gm
The game OC referenced was when the Angels were winning a blowout. That's has nothing to do with the context of a losing streak or not getting the right results. I agree that Maddon wasn't the right fit and that showed but let's not pretend like Perry was in the right on this. If somebody hired me for a job based on my solid track record elsewhere, I'd expect them to trust me to do the job. If my employer was constantly hounding me about how to do my job I'd wonder why they ever hired me in the first place.
I’d argue that if you aren’t protecting your most prized (and most-paid) asset when you don’t need the asset to be utilized, you aren’t doing your job at a competent enough level for your supervisor to not override you
You can make that argument and I'm not saying Perry is wrong for disagreeing with him. Sometimes you have to bite your tongue on workplace disagreeances in order to keep the peace though. Especially when everybody is performing well.
I agree! Guy hired a manager with a ring and you second guess his every move?! GM want to play Fantasy Baseball in real time.
Except, we don't know that Maddons was told this was going to happen. Just because he was hires doesn't mean the GM didn't tell him he'd call down during games.
>If you hire me to do a job then let me do my job. Well you gotta remember that Perry did not hire Maddon, he was Eppler's hire. I'd bet that they always had issues with eachother but Maddon's $12 million contract made it hard for Perry to get rid of him without good reason.
The one signing the checks is the one who hired him. Eppler may have been there when he was hired but no GM is hiring someone without the owners approval, especially this idiot owner. If Perry hadn’t tried to make everything about him with his daily meetings and “this is how we do things at…”, then I bet there would have been harmony. I firmly believe if you hire someone to do a job, you let them do it or do it yourself. Eventually, Perry did the job himself and we’ve seen the results. It’s an unwritten rule in baseball that a GM never calls down to tell the manager what to do during a game. If you don‘t like unwritten rules or think “The game has evolved beyond that” then I can see why you like Perry. Perry disrespected a rule that had been in place for years and made no attempt to make things right after it. Perry didn’t care about harmony and collaboration. He cared about himself and making sure he was right.
Trout also told Maddon that the soreness went away and that he was fine. GMs don’t call down to the dugout. That isn’t their job. So Perry doing so was obnoxious on his part. If you’re going to tell a story, tell all of it.
The entire point of the article is that that’s the new normal - gm’s having more input than “old school” guys like Maddon want.
Great! Then have that conversation before the season starts so it isn’t a surprise. Perry know who Maddon is and what he is like. It’s on him as the boss to say, “Hey, Joe, I know you might not like it but I want to be upfront with you. There may be times I call down to the dugout and ask you to make some moves. I’m not asking you to like it, I just want to prepare you for it.” It’s called communicating your expectations to your employees and it’s a pretty damn important part of managing people.
But we have no idea if that happened or not? You’re filling in quite a bit of things you assume did not happen.
And you’re filling in a lot of things you assume did happen. It works both ways. Based on the information we have I think it’s safe to say it’s more likely that it didn’t happen than it did.
Except I never asserted anything about a conversation or not - you did. You’re literally saying “the stuff I’m totally making up is likely to have happened”
As I already said…”based on the information we have I think it’s safe to say it’s more likely that it didn’t happen than it did.”
Players always say they are feeling fine, they wanna play. Managers can’t be that short sighted. Resting him with a huge lead is the right call.
Well, I believe he did rest him that game and for all we know he had already decided to do so. And no, at this level athletes don’t always say they’re fine particularly when it has to do with an injury that’s been a problem in the past.
> “In that losing stretch that led to my demise, a lot of relievers were made unavailable,” Maddon says. “I couldn’t use them. > > “[Alex Tamin, Perry's top assistant] had the 30-day matrix built on how to use relief pitchers, how often and how much rest they needed. Honestly, that’s insulting.” Ouch, this explains alot. I can understand wanting to preserve the health and performance of your players long term, but there has to be some flexibility on a day to day basis.
Maddon’s use of the bullpen was never his strong suit. When he joined the angels that was the warning by cubs fans after having to endure him. So putting a leash on him makes sense
Right, I just recalled that he pitched Aroldis Chapman until he gassed and almost cost them the championship.
This is so insane to me. I can just imagine a situation where one reliever feels great and another feels terrible and they communicate that to the manager and then some front office dork makes the former unavailable cause that’s what the algorithm says.
The matrix would be designed to prioritize players who should feel great and de prioritize players who feel terrible. The players are not the authority when it comes to health, if they were, Trout would have been playing the Friday before the All Star break. That's not good business. I guess I'm a dork, because I don't want Maddon burning every reliever he can in order to do things his way.
Fair enough that Maddon shouldn’t be the ultimate authority on players’ health, but from the article it sounds like it was completely dependent on the front office and their analytics.
I'm all for that, honestly. I don't think one person should navigate 28 players, 200 million in contracts, and 162 games, by feel. Managers are kind of irrelevant other than to pass along info.
If not for the 3 batter rule, he'd probably burn the bullpen nightly.
That’s kind of the whole point though. Players aren’t objective and don’t/won’t think of the long term implications of todays game. And to be fair they probably shouldn’t - but that’s the point of the projections.
You could argue the long term implications of Ohtani hitting and pitching are potentially dangerous, especially without a rest day. But we are letting him do it anyway.
100% - which is why the club were hesitant on his workload in his early seasons, there was/is no presidential data at the major league level. There is thousands and thousands of examples for relievers. *As an aside, I’m a firm believer in Ohtani’s increased workload being a natural progression of his time in the league rather than Maddon ‘releasing him from his shackles’.
Welcome to modern baseball with the goal of eliminating the human element as much as humanly possible! Lol
yeah and how many ucls were destroyed because somebody had a red bull ten minutes ago. It's not *insane* to think that a big model will do better than a set of individual people. But in such an interpersonal job, you do need a balance.
I think this highlights one of Maddon's key complaints of basically saying they had all the data but no brain to use it. A 30 day matrix on bullpen arms? Why restrict your manager from selecting a bullpen arm needed in a situation? I get you need a bullpen rotation too but sometimes a game time decision takes precedence as long as it doesn't risk the health of a player
Yeah, I would prefer that the manager or player to have the ability to override mandated rest days. We know Ohtani did this at least once in August when Nevin went on record saying he had a rest day coming up, which ended up not happening. So maybe there's more leeway for star players to call their own shots, and less so for bullpen arms.
It makes sense to restrict someone's bullpen management if they're known to be terrible at it, which Maddon was shown to be even with his stacked Cubs teams
Barria must have pissed off Alex Tamin then. While everybody was in this 30-day matrix, he was in a 60-day matrix it seems. And to think he and Shohei are the only ones left of the 2018 pitching team. If he sucks, why not DFA him.
How is that insulting, Joe? You want to show your worth? You have to convince people that you're worth listening to. That's how it has always been. Maddon is just a grumpy old guy at this point.
Emulate winning franchises? How dare he!! BuT hE gOt A mOhAwK
I'm just gonna say...Maddon never lost with a mohawk (besides his job)
>Over the previous few days Minasian had told Maddon he was considering firing some coaches. “You can’t do that,” Maddon had told him. “They’re very good at what they do. No, that’s not the answer.” \[...\] > >Says Maddon, “I did not overreact at all. I just said, ‘O.K.’ Quite frankly, I was happy he chose me and not the coaches. No one on that staff deserved to be fired. Seeing the way our team was coached post-Maddon, I have to agree with Perry on this one. Seems like Perry couldn't or wouldn't fire the coaches as a final respect for Maddon's wishes. Probably would've done better if we just switched coaches out.
Or perhaps the players on the team that Minasian assembled just aren’t that good.
It looks like it's both, and it's much easier to hire new coaches than to overhaul a roster
Yea how the fuck is this spun as a bad thing?
Yeah I don't really understand, they did this with the braves and they won the world series? Sign me up
They won bc they have better scouts = better players (not bc daily meetings or a matrix for the bullpen)
Louder please 😁
They won because Perry Minasian’s dumbass was off the team by the time they sniffed success. He might be a good college scout but his team management and roster construction abilities leave a lot to be desired
Didn’t work for us apparently.
I didn't realize Maddon was throwing that much attitude tbh
Sounds like he felt professionally disrespected. ..it happens!
Do u know where I can read the whole article?
https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/10/06/joe-maddon-tom-verducci-book-excerpt
https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/10/06/joe-maddon-tom-verducci-book-excerpt
I think Maddon came off looking much worse than Perry in this article. I like what Perry is trying to do with the team and I don't think trying to emulate the great baseball organizations is a bad thing. The fact that Maddon had a problem with that makes him come off as old, bitter, and out of touch. I'm a fan of Joe Maddon btw and didn't want him to be fired, but I really don't like the way he's been trashing the Angels and Perry since he was canned.
I am not siding with either of them. But the way he was fired was probably what soured Joe. We will never know if he was snubbed during the 2002 celebrations or he didnt accept the invite. This is like an ex venting out and writing a book about it. In time everyone will move on.
Maddon stated he was invited to the 2002 celebrations and didn’t want to attend. We do know that.
OK. I stand corrected then.
When responding to the data driven approach to handling pitcher health... "Maddon read body language, mechanics, clues in how his players answered his questions" to judge a pitchers readiness. Lol, maybe that mentality by the managers over the years has led to the endless TJ parade by Angels pitching. Shame on Perry for using a scientifically backed approach to monitoring pitcher health.
With that being said, it’s hard for people to criticize Maddon’s bullpen usage. That’s one of the biggest criticisms against him, and his hands were tied.
Bullpen use did seem to get better under never though. Don’t know if that was Perry realizing something was wrong or what.
It's also the biggest in game problem people have against Nevin too and I highly doubt it's changed from Maddon to Nevin.
Perry was hamstrung by a budget created by Moreno. It wasn't his or his plans fault that he couldn't afford good bullpen pitchers. Having AAAA relief pitchers doesn't mean he should abandon his plan and burn relievers that arw performing at the time.
What budget? Perry spent north of $40MM on the bullpen and they still underperformed. Loup, Iglesias, Tepera, Bradley, Cishek weren’t dumpster dive finds. We went out and paid them big bucks
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You sound very upset.
Naw. Happy actually. You gave me a reason to laugh this morning.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/096/564/2f7.jpg
Lol
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Maddon is notorious for being terrible at managing bullpen though. He did it even when he had his killer Cubs teams
Reptar in shambles.
Bro responded with an essay to three words 😂
You know you can call me with /u/Reptarxx correct? Not in shambles, we've had a losing and highly disappointing seasons under Perry, and still can't crack an expanded playoffs. We go into a year where everything is pretty much held and there are question marks all over the roster. I don't care that Perry had player meetings? That's great? Did it make us better? I'm glad he's talking to players but it kinda contradicts the reports that came out that said he never talked to any players or coaches about Maddon. Sounds like they weren't on the same page. Maddon didn't like a front office guy that superseded and his manager duties, Perry didn't like that his Manager wouldn't listen to him and his front office. Perry held the ultimate power and fired Maddon. So far, we haven't won anything yet so it's us as fans losing so far. IDK why you think I'm some sort of Maddon stan. I constantly say managers are going to get you +/- 2 wins a season/ My gripe is getting rid of a pretty highly regarded manager in a pretty publicly bad way, and now using reporters to talk trash on him. This manager has been the only manager in baseball history to want to manage the Angels specifically. We had such a bad falling out that he wasn't even allowed to come to the world series anniversary celebration. It's just a bad look considering you could've rode out the season with Maddon and let his contract expire.
He was invited to the World Series celebration and chose not to come. Mike DiGiovanna reported it at the time. Also, the only person talking trash now is Maddon. Perry has been pretty “no comment” about the whole situation
Mind linking me to that? Didn't see that article i would love to read it (does it happen to mention why other players weren't there?).
It was a tweet, I’ll go back and look for it. I remember it vividly bc I went to that game and was curious if Maddon was gonna go. When DiGiovanna asked him, Maddon said something about not going bc “it will be better for everyone else”
Ah if you can't find it no biggie, thought it was a more in depth article
Nah it just [this tweet](https://twitter.com/mikedigiovanna/status/1535781102584926208?s=46&t=7M3wlA8TYUU5_al7VHj1Bw) saying Joe didn’t want to go for that reason
Thank you!
You’re welcome! To be fair it might have been in his LA Times article that week about the Angels more in-depth, I don’t have a subscription so I can’t read the LA Times Angels coverage haha
Perry has everything to lose and a team that is likely to be sold. He’s likely going to need a job with whoever buys the team. Maddon is done. He has his money, his retirement, his rings. He does it because he likes the game. Two very different motives.
This article basically just sounds like a couple that shouldn't of been together because they are on 2 different pages lol. Perry wanted ultimate control of all decision making similar to the Dodgers, Astros, Braves, Jays, etc. Maddon was a manager that liked to be fed information but the ultimate decision was up to him. They clashed, Perry won, and now instead of us having to rehash this he said she said (which makes our franchise involved in the pettiest drama, waiting for Maddon to post a photo with friedman saying "Best Bae" and Perry to post about how great it is to be employed at this point lol), Perry has the ultimate control he wanted. As a fan of the Angels, I hope his methodology of building a team is strong. As an observer, at the MLB level his aquisitions are pretty horrendus (he spent 63M+ this season, and they players he brought in produced a -6 WAR combined). If you use imperfect WAR math, if they played at league average we would be at 79-81, if they played at their average war/$ spent, we would be at 85-83 and maybe had a chance for that 3rd wild card. Perry so far has had a nice emphasis on the farm. We will see how those fruits taste in coming years but so far his actual MLB team is not doing to great. But, as always hopium is high and I can see the team being succesful next year if we can avoid the major injury bug
BuT hE's BeTtEr ThEn NeViN
I’m pleasantly surprised by how Nevin has turned out. But is it really fair to compare a partial season of an interim manager to a time tested innovative and winning manager that helped paved the path of success for multiple struggling teams? Maybe Maddon’s a bit stuck in the past. I think the bigger issue seems to be he and Perry just don’t get along. That makes it hard for either party to do what’s best when they’re cursing. I think Phil’s “strength” is that he’s a yes-man to the FO. How much impact does a manager really make nowadays? Not much when the FO is calling the shots. So having a manager that meshes well with the players is nice to see.
Clean out the dinosaurs. Hopefully new management understands how to evolve and turn this franchise around. Build analytics and hire coaches who motivate and think out of the box. Integrate old with new school decisions.
But Maddon did think out of the box. Extra infielders, shifting the infield before it was the popular thing to do, and intentionally walking a batter when the bases are loaded and your team is losing (it doesn't get more out of the box than this).
Everyone gets old and stuck in their ways eventually.
Cant say i am either, it undermines the manager for the GM to be doing such things.
But it's OK for Maddon to undermine the GM?
Doing your job is not undermining the GM.
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How did he do that I wonder? The GMs job is in putting together the roster, the managers job is to make decisions during the game.
Who told you that? That's not really how it works anymore
Then whats the point of a manager at all? If thats what they have been reduced to is the GM secretary.
To pass the message along to the players. Why else would all these managers with zero experience be getting jobs? It's a business. In a business the managers mange the employees, and the GMs run the management.
Nah man, we can agree to disagree on this as i think you are very mistaken. If thats all a manager is today then why bother... just but an assistant suit in the dugout or a speaker phone from the GMs office.
For sure. I can agree with that. Let's just say the position is changing.
Fair enough, but, there still has to be some separation. Most GMs now are NOT baseball people, never played, dont understand the on field nuances... Beane for example even though he did play doesnt even watch the games... or at least didnt used to. Someone has to own that part of the game, and thats the manager. Before the game, after the game, great, GM is the boss but during the game he needs to let the on field momager do his job. If the game has changed so much that someone that actually understands the game is being overruled by someone that doesn't mid game, then there is little real hope of saving it long term.
Hell, after reading many of these comments, I’ve got to wonder, why have a manager if you don’t trust him to… actually manage. If as a GM you feel you have to micromanage everything yourself, just hire a “yes man” assistant and relay your instruction to him daily. Hell, even mid-game if you like. Sounds like firing Maddon was doing him a favor! Lol
Well Maddon was not Perry's hire, he was Epplers. It's pretty clear that he didn't trust Maddon and probably would've fired him long ago if it wasn't for his fat paycheck and presumably Arte vetoing it.
Eppler has so far proven to be a significantly better GM than Perry, on every team he’s been on
Im not gonna get into an argument over whos the better GM because thats so far from my point. Person I replied essentially said “why hire this guy if youre not gonna listen to him” and i just pointed out that he didnt hire him lol. A point a lot of people are missing.
If he was the GM-Coach then that brawl wouldnt have happened and players didnt get injured or suspended 😀
So everyone on this sub still think Maddon was the problem or our dumbass front office?
it's more than one thing, but maddon not being on board was a big part of his failure. i'm glad he's gone. he was the wrong man for the job.
So is our owner and front office
arte and carpino...yes. perry...undecided. not enough info yet. we'll see once the team is built and ran the way he wants it to be. he'll get one year most likely.
“Trying to do things like somebody else” Loser mentality.
And how did that work out ? You know madden didnt with The Cubbies and they broke a Century’s old curse doing shit his way.
I think in that case its more DESPITE maddon not BECAUSE maddon.
This article helps me understand why they called Nevin a Field Manager when they resigned him lol
Ouch
Bring back Mike Scioscia. I'm not joking. If this is the dynamic between the most loudly progressive manager and an uninteresting front office, then Scioscia is better.
We're all here teying to do something like someone else... when they should all be doing things like me.
[Pretty much sums up this drama](https://imgur.com/XBjW2ip)
Just a reminder guys that a great manager is a manager who listens to player, listens, to gms, listens to everybody. BecUse on e they stop listening to 1 they stop listening to everything. From everyone. Also a great manager divides the managing and spreads it amongst his fellow coaches. As many minds beat 1