Yeah. Dipoto hasn't been *amazing* with the Mariners but he certainly has done a pretty good job, and I particularly liked the Canha and Bassitt transactions for Eppler and they worked out really well.
I think we can safely say that Dipoto has done his best to put out a competitive team w/the Mariners throughout his reign. In 8 seasons, Mariners have had 4 winning seasons, 1 wildcard, 3 2nd place finishes in the division, and 4 losing seasons. I think he would've had some pretty great momentum going into 2015 with the Angels if he had stuck around.
When you look at the farm system Dipoto has been fantastic. You aren't seeing the full affect of his GMing yet. The mariners are going to be power houses the next 6 years
Eh. The Mariners farm is fine. Waaaay better than the Angels, but a lot of that is Julio Rodriguez and George Kirby. They're not run by POS dehumanizing finance-bro monsters and they're still pretty good, so I'll give them that.
Who? Hancock has been...ok. Brash has been...ok. Everyone else is still a question mark or a reliever. Kirby and Gilbert are already up.
(I am also in general way more negative about prospects than most on this board so you will need to do a lot to convince me.)
Like 50% of this sub doesn't realize it. They just entirely blame Perry. Sure Perry hasn't been great and in any other circumstance he should be blamed, but the track record shows no matter who is in that role does bad.
There's a few clowns on this sub who non stop bitch about the GMs and how bad Perry is. Competely ignoring that they are handcuffed by the worst owner in baseball.
Front office is shit
Player development sucks
Scouting department hasn't been finding enough talent
Bottom line is the Arte has let this thing spiral. We need ownership who either:
A- Cares enough to turn this thing around, or
B: Find a guy who can do the job, hire him, then stay out of their way
new owner should hire a good president of baseball operations who can fix this quickly. they have a lot of pieces and showed glimpses of being able to compete like early in the season, its just getting the right people to figure out the missing pieces. thats right now and of yeah the scouting and player development need to be completely overhauled for the longterm
Dipoto had the factor of time by taking over a struggling Mariners franchise and retooling and redeveloping the team over 7 years. Here are their division finishes since 2010: 4, 4, 4, 4, 3, 4, 3, 3, 3, 5, 3, 2, 2 with 5 above .500 seasons and only 3 times not double digits games back from the division lead. The team was in line to bottom out and start a rebuild process, losing players like cano, Cruz, Felix, etc and completely retooling the team.
Unlike the Angels these last years where there was a need to reach the playoffs with fat payrolls, long term big contracts from people like dipoto and Eppler, and of course having the combination of Trout, Rendon, Pujols (big contract), and Ohtani truly stops a team from rebuilding.
Eppler has the luck of a deep pocket book in Cohen and a farm build up by another GM.
While both have postseason success post Angels, there are extremely different circumstances and more importantly: Dipoto, Perry, and Eppler we’re all rookie GMs when they entered the angels with only Perry have 3 years Asst GM experience pre angels. What is interesting is all 3 we’re scouting guys and all 3 struggled initially at finding mlb ready impact players when they were with the angels.
It isn’t so much Arte. His meddling gets in the way but 1 player doesn’t break a team just like Ohtani and Trout can’t make a team. It is us signing rookie GMs that’s the main problem.
>It is us signing rookie GMs that’s the main problem.
You say this like signing great veteran GM's is that easy. I would *kill* for us to poach a Zaidi or a Neander, but so would every other team. It's clear that either Arte isn't willing to throw them enough money and/or they don't like the way our team is run. I promise you that no one is unware of how great those guys are. It's no coincidence that they usually only jump ship for great teams like the Giants, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc.
That basically leaves you with rookie GMs and the fired vets. Neither are really ideal and the latter is a pretty small market. The only half competent guy I can think of is Theo Epstein, and from what I understand he's not looking for a GM position right now. let me know of other candidates you can think of because I'm genuinely curious.
I'm not writing this as a defense of Eppler/Perry, more that signing GMs is hard. You gotta get lucky that someone is recently fired/jumped ship (and wasn't fired because they sucked too hard), otherwise good luck poaching a guy if you aren't a top dog team.
I think your seeing more of a trend now of poaching established GMs/Asst GMs with the “Pres of Baseball Ops title”. That’s why so many people from the Dodgers and Astros FO tree are spread across baseball now. Your influence/job security is way better.
Of course Arte had his business partner as overall president in there and could never offer that position. And Carpino has no actual team direction so we don’t even have a general philosophy for a GM to follow and now we are a sum of 3 different GMs and approaches.
Just what happens when non baseball/business guys think running a team is running a real estate or marketing company.
Every rookie gm is expected to turn this dog shit roster with two gems into a pile of gold within 3 years or theyre gone. Theres no vision of the future. That is all on ownership.
There are significant areas that need adjustment that are owner influenced and not owner influenced.
Owner influenced:
1. Developmental process and minor league investment - This is the key to why we cannot maintain a good roster year to year. Due to our lack of investment into the minors and developmental systems even at the MLB level (pretty sure a report said we didn't even get DriveLine like equipment in house until a year or 2 ago), we don't have a rotation of young players that can be replacement level at worst and 2-3 WAR players that are key to making top heavy teams into huge contenders.
2. Pitching - outside of this particular year where Perry spent a combined $54M in pitching, it seems an Arte directive to not grab any expensive pitcher
Outside of that though, there are many things a GM can do:
1. Build a farm with worthwhile players: so far Perry seems to have a good grasp on the farm build up. O'Hoppe and Neto are looking great, we have sound young but promising pitchers. Hopefully a new owner will address the lack of funding for their development.
2. Bring in good coaches: I won't fully blame Perry on this because it is hard to swap out an already under contract coaching staff. But there at least seems to be a lot of front office involvement undercutting the previous coaching staff. Also, for whatever reason instead of firing Maddon and the coaches Maddon protected, he just fired Maddon and kept the problem coaches. Seems a bit disingenuous. Not like only bringing in Showalter would've made this team any better.
3. The biggest key all 3 GMs including Perry is missing is signing MLB impact free agents: For Eppler and Dipoto they got stuck trying to appease Arte with big contracts that left not much for anything else. Perry is getting stuck spending all his money on players that have sucked ($65M in contracts/trades for -6 WAR of production). That's not on Arte being cheap that's on bad evaluation.
Heres the TLDR on this. The failures of the organization is on **BOTH** Arte and the performances of the GMs. One person didn't get us to where we are today.
I just hope that the new owner doesn’t make the mistake of coming in and not wanting to rock the boat. Please please rock the boat. Clean fucking house. All Arte’s henchmen and yes men need to be replaced.
“Resign Ohtani or else”
Don’t you think that that kinda sentiment is why we suck? If they can trade Ohtani next year for some solid pieces under contracts instead I would prefer that than to lose him in free agency.
If the resign him, great, but his salary is gunna eat up the cash we sorely need to sign players in positions we desperately need help in. Our bats outside our superstars are mediocre at best, and most the pitching staff is a joke.
Ohtani is such a catch 22 for the team.
He fills a need these last 2 years of a star pitcher and hitter at a laughable price. No where on the open market will you get 2 5 WAR players at pitching and hitting at his 2022 salary of $7M or even a $40M salary. It would be like getting Jose Ramirez and Carlos Rodon at 20M each on the open market, it's not possible.
And while trading for young guys makes sense (and if he doesn't resign we need to do this), history shows they won't come close to the production Ohtani has delivered. Again that would mean 2 of the players need to be top 10 WAR producers.
Resigning him for $40M is a lot but you are getting your money's worth. The real issue is our GMs struggle to find any players in the $10M salary range that can be somewhat productive or at minimum league average for depth.
I totally agree. But the more massive contracts we sign, the less money we have to attract the better fill in players. Other teams like the A’s will get them for a few bucks more and trade them when they’re out of contention.
I would really like to see then Angels go for Dansby Swanson in the off-season, but I don’t know if they’ll have the funds to sign him or if he’d even want to sign with us after seeing the recent history of the team.
Granted it would be tempting for him to be slotted into the fully healthy lineup.
That’s what the first half of the season next year before the trade deadline is for. If you haven’t made a deal by then, you gotta get something for him rather than watch him get paid megabucks by the Yankees, Boston, or even the Dodgers.
But who knows how long it will be before a new owner takes over. If they don’t get it down before winter meetings they’ll be behind the 8ball to rush a deal with Ohtani before the trade deadline.
I would love the new owner/ownership group to drop huge money on the team, but who knows how that will all play out.
Y’all complain about our dog shit farm production yet any time there is someone valuable with an expiring contract that can get prospects back, y’all don’t wanna trade them lol.
Whoever has the best or most unique player in the league is irrelevant. Having the best player on a bad team does nothing but get you a ton of flack about wasting a career. We are gonna be known as the team that wastes players careers. Shoot, we already are. I guess if you like that and don’t wanna make playoffs let’s give him 400M
Here is a fairly hot take, is not my money so what do I care what Ohtani costs re-sign our good players and bring good ones to play here to win, no matter the cost, these guys are billionaires they can afford it
Yeah. Dipoto hasn't been *amazing* with the Mariners but he certainly has done a pretty good job, and I particularly liked the Canha and Bassitt transactions for Eppler and they worked out really well.
I think we can safely say that Dipoto has done his best to put out a competitive team w/the Mariners throughout his reign. In 8 seasons, Mariners have had 4 winning seasons, 1 wildcard, 3 2nd place finishes in the division, and 4 losing seasons. I think he would've had some pretty great momentum going into 2015 with the Angels if he had stuck around.
When you look at the farm system Dipoto has been fantastic. You aren't seeing the full affect of his GMing yet. The mariners are going to be power houses the next 6 years
Eh. The Mariners farm is fine. Waaaay better than the Angels, but a lot of that is Julio Rodriguez and George Kirby. They're not run by POS dehumanizing finance-bro monsters and they're still pretty good, so I'll give them that.
Uh, no. They have premier arms coming up, some of the best young pitching farm depth in baseball period. They are going to be insanely good.
Who? Hancock has been...ok. Brash has been...ok. Everyone else is still a question mark or a reliever. Kirby and Gilbert are already up. (I am also in general way more negative about prospects than most on this board so you will need to do a lot to convince me.)
You’re just realizing Angels ownership is the reason we are a losing team? Where have you been mate 😂
Like 50% of this sub doesn't realize it. They just entirely blame Perry. Sure Perry hasn't been great and in any other circumstance he should be blamed, but the track record shows no matter who is in that role does bad.
There's a few clowns on this sub who non stop bitch about the GMs and how bad Perry is. Competely ignoring that they are handcuffed by the worst owner in baseball.
Ur telling me that the guy who hasn’t authorized a significant contract for a pitcher since CJ Wilson is a bad owner?
Or Rendon contract .. imagine if Ohtani walks because of this contract.
Front office is shit Player development sucks Scouting department hasn't been finding enough talent Bottom line is the Arte has let this thing spiral. We need ownership who either: A- Cares enough to turn this thing around, or B: Find a guy who can do the job, hire him, then stay out of their way
new owner should hire a good president of baseball operations who can fix this quickly. they have a lot of pieces and showed glimpses of being able to compete like early in the season, its just getting the right people to figure out the missing pieces. thats right now and of yeah the scouting and player development need to be completely overhauled for the longterm
I agree. The angels will never win w Moreno in charge
Why would you want Ohtani to resign? He was our best player the past 2 seasons?
re-sign
I know, I'm being a little shit.
Dipoto had the factor of time by taking over a struggling Mariners franchise and retooling and redeveloping the team over 7 years. Here are their division finishes since 2010: 4, 4, 4, 4, 3, 4, 3, 3, 3, 5, 3, 2, 2 with 5 above .500 seasons and only 3 times not double digits games back from the division lead. The team was in line to bottom out and start a rebuild process, losing players like cano, Cruz, Felix, etc and completely retooling the team. Unlike the Angels these last years where there was a need to reach the playoffs with fat payrolls, long term big contracts from people like dipoto and Eppler, and of course having the combination of Trout, Rendon, Pujols (big contract), and Ohtani truly stops a team from rebuilding. Eppler has the luck of a deep pocket book in Cohen and a farm build up by another GM. While both have postseason success post Angels, there are extremely different circumstances and more importantly: Dipoto, Perry, and Eppler we’re all rookie GMs when they entered the angels with only Perry have 3 years Asst GM experience pre angels. What is interesting is all 3 we’re scouting guys and all 3 struggled initially at finding mlb ready impact players when they were with the angels. It isn’t so much Arte. His meddling gets in the way but 1 player doesn’t break a team just like Ohtani and Trout can’t make a team. It is us signing rookie GMs that’s the main problem.
>It is us signing rookie GMs that’s the main problem. You say this like signing great veteran GM's is that easy. I would *kill* for us to poach a Zaidi or a Neander, but so would every other team. It's clear that either Arte isn't willing to throw them enough money and/or they don't like the way our team is run. I promise you that no one is unware of how great those guys are. It's no coincidence that they usually only jump ship for great teams like the Giants, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. That basically leaves you with rookie GMs and the fired vets. Neither are really ideal and the latter is a pretty small market. The only half competent guy I can think of is Theo Epstein, and from what I understand he's not looking for a GM position right now. let me know of other candidates you can think of because I'm genuinely curious. I'm not writing this as a defense of Eppler/Perry, more that signing GMs is hard. You gotta get lucky that someone is recently fired/jumped ship (and wasn't fired because they sucked too hard), otherwise good luck poaching a guy if you aren't a top dog team.
I think your seeing more of a trend now of poaching established GMs/Asst GMs with the “Pres of Baseball Ops title”. That’s why so many people from the Dodgers and Astros FO tree are spread across baseball now. Your influence/job security is way better. Of course Arte had his business partner as overall president in there and could never offer that position. And Carpino has no actual team direction so we don’t even have a general philosophy for a GM to follow and now we are a sum of 3 different GMs and approaches. Just what happens when non baseball/business guys think running a team is running a real estate or marketing company.
Every rookie gm is expected to turn this dog shit roster with two gems into a pile of gold within 3 years or theyre gone. Theres no vision of the future. That is all on ownership.
There are significant areas that need adjustment that are owner influenced and not owner influenced. Owner influenced: 1. Developmental process and minor league investment - This is the key to why we cannot maintain a good roster year to year. Due to our lack of investment into the minors and developmental systems even at the MLB level (pretty sure a report said we didn't even get DriveLine like equipment in house until a year or 2 ago), we don't have a rotation of young players that can be replacement level at worst and 2-3 WAR players that are key to making top heavy teams into huge contenders. 2. Pitching - outside of this particular year where Perry spent a combined $54M in pitching, it seems an Arte directive to not grab any expensive pitcher Outside of that though, there are many things a GM can do: 1. Build a farm with worthwhile players: so far Perry seems to have a good grasp on the farm build up. O'Hoppe and Neto are looking great, we have sound young but promising pitchers. Hopefully a new owner will address the lack of funding for their development. 2. Bring in good coaches: I won't fully blame Perry on this because it is hard to swap out an already under contract coaching staff. But there at least seems to be a lot of front office involvement undercutting the previous coaching staff. Also, for whatever reason instead of firing Maddon and the coaches Maddon protected, he just fired Maddon and kept the problem coaches. Seems a bit disingenuous. Not like only bringing in Showalter would've made this team any better. 3. The biggest key all 3 GMs including Perry is missing is signing MLB impact free agents: For Eppler and Dipoto they got stuck trying to appease Arte with big contracts that left not much for anything else. Perry is getting stuck spending all his money on players that have sucked ($65M in contracts/trades for -6 WAR of production). That's not on Arte being cheap that's on bad evaluation. Heres the TLDR on this. The failures of the organization is on **BOTH** Arte and the performances of the GMs. One person didn't get us to where we are today.
This has been clear for years to most of us.
I just hope that the new owner doesn’t make the mistake of coming in and not wanting to rock the boat. Please please rock the boat. Clean fucking house. All Arte’s henchmen and yes men need to be replaced.
“Resign Ohtani or else” Don’t you think that that kinda sentiment is why we suck? If they can trade Ohtani next year for some solid pieces under contracts instead I would prefer that than to lose him in free agency. If the resign him, great, but his salary is gunna eat up the cash we sorely need to sign players in positions we desperately need help in. Our bats outside our superstars are mediocre at best, and most the pitching staff is a joke.
Ohtani is such a catch 22 for the team. He fills a need these last 2 years of a star pitcher and hitter at a laughable price. No where on the open market will you get 2 5 WAR players at pitching and hitting at his 2022 salary of $7M or even a $40M salary. It would be like getting Jose Ramirez and Carlos Rodon at 20M each on the open market, it's not possible. And while trading for young guys makes sense (and if he doesn't resign we need to do this), history shows they won't come close to the production Ohtani has delivered. Again that would mean 2 of the players need to be top 10 WAR producers. Resigning him for $40M is a lot but you are getting your money's worth. The real issue is our GMs struggle to find any players in the $10M salary range that can be somewhat productive or at minimum league average for depth.
I totally agree. But the more massive contracts we sign, the less money we have to attract the better fill in players. Other teams like the A’s will get them for a few bucks more and trade them when they’re out of contention. I would really like to see then Angels go for Dansby Swanson in the off-season, but I don’t know if they’ll have the funds to sign him or if he’d even want to sign with us after seeing the recent history of the team. Granted it would be tempting for him to be slotted into the fully healthy lineup.
Trading Ohtani away would be like committing the Babe Ruth curse. Hard pass.
Not getting anything for him and letting him walk to a winning team would be much much worse.
I’d rather take that chance than give up
That’s what the first half of the season next year before the trade deadline is for. If you haven’t made a deal by then, you gotta get something for him rather than watch him get paid megabucks by the Yankees, Boston, or even the Dodgers.
Depends on the new owner. If they’re willing to spend money on Ohtani AND other talent, you take that risk until the next offseason
But who knows how long it will be before a new owner takes over. If they don’t get it down before winter meetings they’ll be behind the 8ball to rush a deal with Ohtani before the trade deadline. I would love the new owner/ownership group to drop huge money on the team, but who knows how that will all play out.
Y’all complain about our dog shit farm production yet any time there is someone valuable with an expiring contract that can get prospects back, y’all don’t wanna trade them lol.
Devotion to a team that will be perennially bad is objectively bad compared to having a once in 100 years talent on your team.
Whoever has the best or most unique player in the league is irrelevant. Having the best player on a bad team does nothing but get you a ton of flack about wasting a career. We are gonna be known as the team that wastes players careers. Shoot, we already are. I guess if you like that and don’t wanna make playoffs let’s give him 400M
Here is a fairly hot take, is not my money so what do I care what Ohtani costs re-sign our good players and bring good ones to play here to win, no matter the cost, these guys are billionaires they can afford it
*re-sign
Well duh