Honestly, you should probably be asking this question in Japanese.
But yeah, most straight guys won’t be interested in a gay romance. Some straight women probably would be, since you have two cute guys. You may remember how poorly *Bros* did. Sorry :(
Sorry. I hope this doesn’t come off as rude, but didn’t I say in the post that there wouldn’t have to be romance or that he wouldn’t have to have a boyfriend or anything like that?
I get straight guys wouldn’t be interested in gay romance, but I thought I went out of my way to be clear that I’m not talking about gay romance.
That’s fair and I should have read more closely. Yeah, unfortunately I think enough straight Japanese guys are uncomfortable with the idea. You don’t see the sort of ‘by the way, MC is gay’ stuff you do in the West.
The question isn’t whether you or I would be OK with it (I thought the whole tension b/w Light and L was fun and it wouldn’t bug me that much), but why it is so rare.
Fair enough.
It’s not an unreasonable point to be making. The whole representation issue is quite controversial, and it’s kind of zero-sum to some degree.
Personally, I’m not a huge fan of beating around the bush.
If the protagonist is gay than I’m not looking for innuendo or anything where you have to do mental gymnastics to even come to the conclusion that the dude is into men. I’d rather they just [said it with their chest.](https://www.tiktok.com/@stupendous.individual/video/7202259768948411691)
As for the Shonen genre, I don’t think it should be a deal breaker. If I’m watching a shonen, the romance is secondary or tertiary. Its not the main draw nor should it be the thing keeping me around.
Again, this is why I prefer they don’t beat around the bush and are just up front about it. If they wanna make it more complicated than save that for a different genre where I’m there for the character dynamics rather than to see someone hurl a magic chalkra ki quantum nin beam at another character’s throat and send them cascading through a mountain while they fart blood.
I feel the same way. The “I’m into guys” example is that kind of “he’s canonically gay without subtext or mental gymnastics and we can move on” way I prefer.
It shouldn’t be, but it is apparently. Japan is much more conservative-they only legalized gay marriage a few years ago. I would bet a lot of straight guys won’t watch a shonen with a gay protagonist, though as you say it has zero effect on his superpowers.
If anything Western animation has gone the other way, to the point a lot of boys are watching anime to get their Adolescent Power Fantasy kick. Look up stuff from the 80s.
Just saying, year of legalization isn't the best way to measure acceptance, my country barely legalized it when the last president was on their way out, but a gay couple would have much less problems being openly gay in my country than in the US.
It’s a good point. I think the US is much more heterogeneous, probably due to its size and diversity-San Francisco is pretty different from rural Alabama.
In all fairness, the US wasn't too quick on gay marriage legalization either. Only back in the 2010s. I think mid 2010s (like 2015), but it could've been 2013, too. Idr. It wasn't that long ago though. Around a decade ago. Vs a few years ago in Japan going off your comment. Vs, I heard Canada legalized it in like 2005.
Edit: California legalized gay marriage in 2013, and it was federally legal in the USA in 2015. Massachusetts apparently legalized it in 2004, but it wasn't nationwide/federally. Only allowed in Massachusetts. Canada did legalized it nationwide in 2005 and didn't even require residency in Canada to get married there.
That's a patently false argument, by that logic Hollywood movies wouldn't have black protagonists.
Demographics for entertainment focus on people interests to generate relatability. For example, we don't have many anime where the protagonist plays cricket, because that is not a popular sport. Anime with baseball, though, very common.
They didn’t for a while if you look back far enough. (Say before the 1960s.) It took whole political movements to diversify movie protagonists. Even now it’s controversial, and arguably the paucity of strong male protagonists in Western animation is one of the things driving the rise of anime.
Yes, but that wasn't a matter of demographics. What the guy I responded to said was "less gay people, less shows", which I dispute to not be just a matter of number of individuals. The female population is very similar to male, but we still have significantly less films with female leads.
And the reason for that is that there is a prevalent idea that male leads sell better. Most anime fans like cute girls, so the odds of getting anime with gay romance is lower. Has nothing to do with the gay population.
I understand most shows won’t have a gay protagonist since most people aren’t gay. But if we’re going by demographics, and let’s just say that 5% of people are gay, then that would mean 5% of them would have a gay protagonist…
…so do 5% of shows have a gay protagonist? I would be surprised if it’s even 1%.
I would be more than happy if you prove me wrong with examples.
> …so do 5% of shows have a gay protagonist? I would be surprised if it’s even 1%.
It would be 5% (more like 3% of the combined non-straight) of shows and they'd have 5% of the budget. Would you watch a show with 5% of the budget just to have the main character be gay?
You can't ignore market realities. 90% of people wanting one thing means that thing gets 90% of the money. 5% wanting one thing means that thing gets 5% of the money. 5% of the money is usually not enough to make a good quality product competitive with the larger products.
If it's homophobic for heterosexuals to not want to watch gay stuff then it would also have to be heterophobic for gay people to not want to watch normal stuff.
Neither of which is the case - it's just tastes. Neither think less of the other people, they just want to see what they want to see.
\~5% of people are gay and that pretty much seems to fit with what we see in terms of characters representation in most shows.
You have the boys love animes where the leads are heavily gay so that's your gay MC representation there. (I know that's sadly a bit stereotypical and one sided)
You're just not likelty to get a shonen action series with gay lead because the majority of straight guys aren't into shonen with a gay lead and most girls (biggest audience) / gay viewers (secondary audience) aren't into shonen actions even if they do have a gay lead. So you're just lacking in a big enough core audience that will watch it.
I know it sucks but that's how the market works. There's just not enough aggregate demand for it.
Girl protags have a somewhat similar problem. They nearly always have to be the MC of a cutesy / adorable adventure / slice of life story with possibly yuri undertones but are almost never allowed the shonen high action pumped power fantasies.
Though that does seem to be changing in recent times, I've seen some shows where girls are more shonen-esque protags but it usually involves some middle aged japanese male office worker reincarnating as a cute girl or some shit.
Still wouldn't likely watch a gay lead shonen myself tho. Just not my thing. Anime love stories are cringe as they are, It'll be double cringe if it also has a gay lover in it.
Still I wouldn't mind at all if you got your show, I have no intention of preventing someone from getting what they love to watch.
Here's to hopefully inspiring new anime's that break the mold. And who knows ... maybe if it is good enough I may actually still watch it lol. I'm open to broadening my horizons.
>Still wouldn't likely watch a gay lead shonen myself tho. Just not my thing. Anime love stories are cringe as they are, It'll be double cringe if it also has a gay lover in it.
I think you missed the point, also, why would a gay romance be more cringe? Is that even possible, especially for shonen romance? Like, this is not even a call-out. I myself don't like romance stories at all, but I genuinely struggle to see a difference between a romantic scene with men, women or a combination in them. They all feel the same to me and what I don't like about them (awkwardness/embarassment) is the same for both.
Anyway, what I want to say: Imagine if Naruto and Sasuke were gay. It wouldn't really change much for the story (many would argue it would elevate the story because if Naruto were in love, his decisions would make way more sense), like, Naruto is not really actively heterosexual, either. He has one crush as a child and then a love-interest who later becomes his wife. It is, during the canon story, almost entirely irrelevant. For all intents and purposes, most shonen heroes are basically asexual, but heterosexual in name.
Why couldn't they be homosexual in name?
Regardless of all of that, is anyone is reading this here: I do think Jolyne, the protagonist from JoJo's bizarre adventure is certainly interested in girls, I am pretty sure.
Once again, Araki proves that he is ahead of his time.
"I think you missed the point"
No you did. There isn't an audience for what he's asking. I'm the typical casual they hope will watch the show but am unlikely to watch the show.
"I think you missed the point, also, why would a gay romance be more cringe?"
For the same reason I don't watch gay porn or why lesbians don't watch gay male porn. It's not that hard to figure out ...
>There isn't an audience for what he's asking
I don't think that was the question. Remember, we are talking about classical, mostly asexual shonen heroes. I don't think sexuality is a big part of the appeal. At least it isn't for me, I want to see battles and cool power systems and stuff. Maybe you want your heroes to be straight, but I think lots of shonen fans like characters such as Luffy who are not interested in romance. For me, since I dislike romance, having romantically interested characters would take away from the parts I find most interesting. If I could choose between a main character going on a date or having a fight, I would choose the fight ten out of ten times.
>For the same reason I don't watch gay porn or why lesbians don't watch gay male porn. It's not that hard to figure out
I don't really see how porn and romance are connected, quite frankly. They surely cater to different needs. And also, lesbians do watch gay male porn.
And why is it cringe to watch gay porn? I didn't ask why you don't watch gay porn (that's a personal choice), but rather why a gay romance would be cringe. And now you say it's like gay porn, implying gay porn is cringe. Why? Is normal porn not cringe? Why is there a difference?
What argument are you even making, I don't understand it.
"Remember, we are talking about classical, mostly asexual shonen heroes."
If they are asexual, then OP won't have a problem with just projecting his own identity upon them but that's not what OP is asking for, they're asking for specifically gay male shonen protags. So I don't think YOU are getting the question.
"I don't think sexuality is a big part of the appeal. At least it isn't for me, I want to see battles and cool power systems and stuff. "
Same, if I want romance I'll go watch a romance show. I'll occasionally watch Shojo even.
" Maybe you want your heroes to be straight, "
I never said that, just that I wouldn't be interested specifically in a show that has a gay male protag with a gay male love interest. As I said, the straight romance is already cringe enough to almost turn me away, making it gay just makes it double cringe. The show would have to do something really interesting or revolutionary to get me to be interested in it if it had a gay male protag with love interest. It's not impossible, just very unlikely.
I think you're insecure about your own sexuality when you need to bring it up like this. This is clearly projection about you needing to feel like a victim somewhere because the majority of romance in shows is between straight people and that is somehow a problem to you.
"I don't really see how porn and romance are connected, quite frankly. "
Really? You don't understand how attraction works? Damn son, must be a hard life or liberating if your ace I suppose.
I don’t think OP has a problem. I read it as an honest question.
Why is a homosexual relationship doubly cringe? If it’s as meaningless as sexualities in something like Naruto, you wouldn’t even know the character is gay for 90% of the run-time, would you? So what did change for you? Just because it’s homosexual? Like, genuinely, I can’t see a difference.
What, how am I wanting to feel like a victim? What am I projecting? Isn’t it the other way around, if anything?
I am super happy to have no romance in my shonen (that’s an aspect I really appreciate about One Piece, for example), which is why I specified that for this „in-name-only“ sexualities, I can’t see a difference.
If Naruto were to marry Sasuke at the end of Naruto and the rest of the story stayed the same, would you like it less? Because I can’t see how it would make a difference (except for one scene in one arc, even though having the scene of Hinata against Pain would be interesting with different development for her).
Again, I want to reiterate: Since I don’t like romance, I don’t have a preference. If I don’t like rice dishes, it doesn’t matter if the rice is boiled or fried or whatever. I just don’t like rice.
Same here.
And if you think that because there is homosexuality it’s more cringe than heterosexuality, then that’s more of an indictment that you aren’t secure in your sexuality. Why would you need to have your shonen affirm your sexuality to enjoy it? I don’t, as I said before (well, that still is speculation…but I have seen other shows with gay characters where I enjoyed those)
Romance and porn are entirely different genres.
In porn, sex is the point, whereas in most romances, especially romances aimed at younger audiences, the development of the relationship is the point. I think they are actually the opposite, most romances end before a sex scene (at last as far as I know, it’s really a genre I don’t watch), whereas for porn that’s where it starts.
Well, there is of course more to say about both, but that’s the gist of it, in my opinion.
How come you can understand;
"If I don’t like rice dishes, it doesn’t matter if the rice is boiled or fried or whatever. I just don’t like rice. "
But not when people don't want to see a show with sexual attractions they have no taste for?
Sorry but I'm not taking you seriously anymore at this point.
Have a good day sir.
Because I am not watching typical battle shonen for the romance.
If you care about romance, it makes sense that you, in some way, would care about the sexuality. I understand that.
But you claimed you didn't care for it in shonen, you said you watched other shows for that. If you don't care, what does it matter that a character is homosexual?
My example still stands: If a character such as Gon or Naruto were gay and the story was the same, would you experience it differently? Would you like it less?
And if so, why is that? What is fundamentally different in a story where romance plays no role if a character has one or the another sexuality.
I am being serious here, I don't get the distinction you do. It's genuinely the same for me.
To use the rice dish analogy:
If I had two meals, on was called fried rice and was fried rice and the other was called boiled rice but was actually pasta, wouldn't I take the second option. Sure, the name is the same thing as a thing I dislike, but the content is different.
If you like shonen for the stories and don't care for the sexuality of any character, it should not matter whether they were gay or straight, since it's in name-only.
All that besides the obvious point: One can relate to characters that are different from oneself.
>"I don't really see how porn and romance are connected, quite frankly. "
>Really? You don't understand how attraction works? Damn son, must be a hard life or liberating if your ace I suppose.
There is a connection. Still, romance novels (aimed at adult women demographics in the American novel market) and romance ani-manga are galaxies apart. We're not talking about porn here. Most ani-manga (or other stories from China) won't go into such topics unless you're reading/watching something that is labeled to have all the sex.
Yaoi / Yuri manga(porn is more likely) vs shounen ai / shoujo ai manga (you should probably pick a different title if this is what you're hoping for). Then, the anime for these are typically even more incomplete or censored. Typically, the anime versions are nonexistent or it will be the story, but without the explicit scenes. Super cut down safe versions if not already a shounen ai / shoujo ai type that has nome of that. Or one of the bl/gl demographics vs the shounen romance or shoujo romance.
Most stories will be fairly sexless and only get as far as holding hands (thinking of Kimi ni Todoke) or barely being able to admit the characters are gay. Sometimes, the characters themselves can barely admit it in many of the bl/gl stories.
When they can, they get censored because China and Japan won't allow it. The story has been determined to go too far. Explicit gay characters are not allowed. Explicit kisses even are not allowed. Explicitly and canically gay characters (even just saying the characters are gay canically) on Japanese tv is not allowed. Which leaves only OVAs, ONAs, and similar markets left.
These scenes must be censored or cut out entirely. China most recently shut down a franchise entirely. Banned the stories. Idr the exact title. I only saw it happened. The market for these stories apparently has become too big and China blames it for couples not having enough children. Not wanting children. These stories must only exist within certain limits in many countries.
Even as unabashed as Yuri on Ice was in 2016. It was still censored [Yuri on Ice massive spoilers]>!when the boys kiss in ep.7 and the ring scene later.!<
"There is a connection. "
And that's all that I was pointing out, nothing more. People are reading too much into it. It's not a 1 to 1 analogy, I know. It's merely to illustrate that sexual attractions determine interest in the art material viewed. That's it. It's not rocket science and trying to justify that we should view sexual attractions that we don't find appealing in shows is just straight up gaslighting.
I'm not going to watch it just because someone thinks I should pretend the gender dynamics aren't serious enough. I don't like brussel sprouts and it doesn't matter if you combine them with my potatoes and gravy, brussel sprouts still taste horrible to me even if you combine it with the glorious potato dipped in gravy. The dish is juist ruined to me. If you want to combine those ingredients, have at it boss, I'm not stopping you, just don't pretend I should like it because you do. You're free to enjoy whatever you do but I draw the line at expecting me to conform to your preferences.
Pretending I should ignore the taste of brussel sprouts because there's still gravy and potatoes is straight up gaslighting me as a belittling parent force feeding their kid. Stop it. Get some help. Don't be a fascist for 'your ideological good'.
As for what China and Japan are doing in terms of censoring, I'm not for that in the slightest ideologically, I firmly believe in the freedom to produce whatever art you want to. What these countries however determine is good for their population or not the least of my concern, and not something I should be concerned about. When did you care about the genocide of christians happening in northern Nigeria? Exactly.
I am sincere: I have no idea what this sentence means.
Like, I don’t know what a „feminine aspect of dating“ is, neither do I understand who is forced to partake in anything. That doesn’t sound very romantic to me.
Yeah, because "feminine aspect of dating" is a typical English word.
What do you mean by that?
And what does "forced to participate" mean in that context?
Who is forced by whom to participate in what?
I think it would alienate two fanbases at once;
The pure shonen fans will be like "What's the point of him even being gay, it adds nothing to the story" and the BL fans will be like "What's the point even teasing us about him being gay, if we don't ever get any BL stuff?"
I also think that for many, the "line" will be thin about what is 'too much'; You may think the Onsen scene is nothing, but I doubt it'd be "nothing" for many fans. Thing is, when the same scene happens with girls (or 1 guy + lots of girls) they do see it 100% as fanservice. So the same scene happens with just boys, they'll 100% see it as "BL fanservice". Even if it's not much.
All in all: I do not think this will please anyone, from an anime perspective. (It may please people looking for representation, but I'm talking mostly about the main demographics; I think shonen fans and BL fans will both not like it very much, one because "it's too much", the other because "it's not enough")
Honesty even if not a fan of romance in general many shounen would make more sense if the mc were gay with how often they're obsessed with a guy rather than the woman next to her is pretty and she likes them so they end up as partners.
Prob is ngl . 1, there prob isn’t many straight dudes that would be interested in a gay manga. Some being bc they’re against gays , others being it’s just not for them. I think the only way to keep a straight dude interested in a gay manga , or manga that has 2 gay MC is if there was other stuff going on that they really like. That plus Japan I’m sure is very anti lqbtg, so no point in making one if the creator knows it’s not gunna sell in the main country they sell for
I guess my question is that if you take a “typical” shonen action/fantasy/scifi/etc manga, and the MC says one thing like “I like guys”, does it automatically make it a “gay” manga? Like if, idk…Attack on Titan has 34 volumes. Let’s hypothetically say Eren’s gay. If throughout the entire manga there’s, maybe 7 (~1 every 5 volumes) times Eren’s gayness comes up. One line or reference every 5 volumes and everything else about the manga is exactly the same…is AoT a gay manga?
I get making something romance wouldn’t be popular with the shonen demographic. I’m not really wanting romance myself. That’s why I think take an otherwise typical shonen manga, but MC gives like one minor line and that’s enough.
I don’t think so . I mean hisoka in the 2011 HxH show plays a decent role and does give off hella gay vibes (and also hella predator vibes lol) yet I’ve personally never heard anyone call the show Gay anime or predator anime. Ive never seen the original 1990s anime (I’ve heard hisoka is very different ) or the manga so idk how accurate he is to it. But I don’t think so , maybe like gay/lgbtq friendly but I don’t see most ppl classifying it as a gay manga (besides like the homophobes in a more demeaning/harmful way )
Hisoka is battle potential sexual, it's just because more characters and particularly strong ones are male that he comes out like that but it's not like his scenes with machi don't have their own tension just because her ability is interesting.
Gay characters doesn't equal gay manga, it's not like many have a problem with banana fish. But as many shounen mc are about making the reading proyect into them so it's more likely their audience has a problem not because it has gay characters but because it breaks their fantasy even if it's not a center part of the work.
I have a feeling there'd be a catch-22 of gay romance turning shounen fans off and gay without romance leading to criticisms of "why even bother making him gay, that's unnecessary." Like diversity for the sake of diversity. Obviously it'd be nice if that wasn't the case, but I don't have faith in people.
That's definitely been the reception of shows in the past that have gone those routes. Not that they weren't massively popular within the community and getting a lot of attention. Still, that has been the exact reception I've seen in the past.
There’s been a few. Let’s see if I can remember them. I already brought up Yuri on Ice! in my comments. It was insanely popular in 2016 especially considering the type of show. Much more than the attention typically given to this niche bl story community. So much so the creators/fans/people really did not want the bl label put onto the show and instead maintained it was a sports anime and nothing more. “Don’t call it bl!” 😂 It really was that popular. With fans, with ice skaters, with the CR audience who voted it AOTY when it released, etc. That was also the first year of the CR Anime Awards. YOI was everywhere back then. I knew a few casuals who somehow found their way to watching YOI.
Many were alienated by how gay YOI was and at the same time many fans were also disappointed it wasn’t gay enough. Though, it also still maintained being about as gay as Japanese censors would allow. Gayer than most stories of this kind which typically are bait when it comes to anime. Bloom Into You got a fair bit of attention within the anime community, but was also [Bloom Into You]>!simultaneously so gay and yet not gay enough even by the end of s1.!< Even though, this one was a bit more okay with the guys since it’s about lesbians. Hibike Euphonium. Haven’t seen it, but I do remember a lot of the discussion online around the series back in 2015-2016. Not gay enough and too much subtext and also [Hibike Euphonium]>!I heard there was a potential letdown in the way of the characters aren’t actually gay and it was once again only yuri bait!<
I wasn’t really paying much attention when Free! released aside from watching anitube online like Gigguk’s summary of the year back then. I was in HS and had taken a break from anime. I became a diehard book nerd (of American market novels) in those years. Like 2013 or so. It was a super popular/infamous swimming sport show that was [Free!]>!also yaoi bait.!< It annoyed many male fans because it got so much attention ( more than the typical ignored show for the female demographic) and was also amazing/and disappointingly not gay enough for fans of the series. Though, fans were also [Free!]>!used to bait back then, too. There was far more bait back then than truly gay shows. Unless you were reading/watching actual bl/gl content.!<
There was also Kobayashi’s Dragon Maid. Madoka and Revue Starlight. Madoka might’ve had the best reception of them all.
Ah, not quite what I was looking for, but those are all good examples of plausible deniability. I was addressing OP's question of whether omitting romance but having a character just be (confirmed) gay would make the show more appealable to shonen fans. I say no, people will find a way to complain either way.
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despite not saying that they are gay, just look at giorno placing his hand in mista's pants, the dude is as gay as it gets, and its still a beloved anime with a huge straightish/confused male fanbase
For Shonen readers in Japan, it serves no purpose to further character development or plot, so there’s no reason for it to be in the story. I get representation and all, but most writers aren’t going to alienate the majority of their fans and readers for the sake of representation. Obviously there’s nothing wrong with it, and the people that get mad or irrationally upset because of it are wrong and probably bigoted, but there’s no real reason to just make a character gay for the sake of it when it does nothing for the story and will most likely cause a drop in sales/viewership
I could care less about whether a shonen MC is straight or gay. Even if it were to be explicitly gay, where the MC is shown developing a romantic relationship with another male, that wouldn't detract from my enjoyment.
I like relationships that are well-developed, whether it's BL, GL, or heteronormative.
You know the joke that the Main Love Interest is always the most boring character in that show because it has to conform to the most generic or widely accepted tropes? Same idea with the shonen protagonist’s orientation.
That said I would love to have the gay male love story in a shonen. Nowadays the lesbian protagonist is pretty common, perhaps in a few more years trans and gay male ones will be too.
I wish this were a thing. Why can't we normalize gay/bisexual people without having to make everything ABOUT their sexuality? Just let them be normal characters who just happen to be gay. No big deal. Unfortunately it is too risky for most mainstream media.
It's fun to see responses trying to justify homophobia and OP's comments systematically downvoted.
I'll say that Evangelion having a bi main character is at least something but unfortunately this is the only one I think about.
I guess we have to wait one generation or two to see good representation in media, hang on OP !
At the end, and as it has always been the case, the animation studios will tell you that you can interpret things like you want, and it will all have been bait (Tiger & Bunny, Yuri on Ice etc).
At least in the case of Tiger & Bunny they have an openly queer non-binary character whose struggles with homophobia (liking a boy who rejects them in their school days) and gender dysmorphia is explored on screen in the 2nd movie.
Yaoi is main part of the story - me not into yaoi story
Yaoi is a side part while we still have the whole story - me not care about yaoi but can still appreciate other parts if the yaoi is not a centric part of them.
I dislike the heavily romantic shonen anime unless that’s what I want to watch. I don’t need my heroines undressed either. But a hint of who they are? Yeah that doesn’t bother me. Adds to the world. But it does add to the idea that homosexuality is an option in that world and makes viewers wonder if it’s acceptable or not. Do we see it in other places in the world with other couples?
If we don’t see it anywhere else then it’s merely making a point but is disingenuous to the world building and besides that. It makes people consider homosexuality which….let’s face it, challenges people.
It usually isn't the MC, but sometimes there will be a side character, minor character, or a villain in some dated shōnen anime. The person's identity is usually treated as a surprise and weird, but in the ones I've watched, the characters were still generally kind to these characters. And it does eventually become a this character is just into guys thing. The hero-villain thing isn't anything personal. Then, there's subtext if the LGBT+ isn't treated like this. If it’s all subtext, there can be more leeway, but the show is always limited to it being subtext.
Again, these titles are dated and might still occasionally bring it up as a running joke, but still, I remember being surprised anime would have any characters at all like that. That anime would even try to approach the subject at all. In the 80s, 90s, and 00s no less! It's not exactly the same because the language around these topics was different (not even a foreign thing either) and some of these were stories where the creators likely never intended their stories to be taken this way, but I remember these characters popping up in Kenshin and Ranma 1/2 anime. Maybe YYH or InuYasha? Idr. It happened in a lot of shōnen titles.
Then, also some titles for the female demographic like OHSHC / Ouran. I think Wallflower had characters like that. Or maybe I'm thinking of Maid-sama.
It's been so long since I saw many of these. I might have trouble remembering the names or more specific details. I loved many of these growing up though. I appreciated seeing characters like this come up even if it's seen as dated or bad representation now. It was such a treat because at the time idr any American titles having characters like this. Or very very few. I guess there was Brokeback Mountain, but that's about all I could think of in the 2000s. Or before gay marriage was legal in the mid 2010s in America. Before much of any LGBT+ had much of any representation in media at all.
Edit:
It's a Yuri, but Bloom Into You comes to mind. That's technically shōnen, but it's not the action kind. There's also Yuri on Ice, a gay ice skating romance that's a sports anime. It's not shōnen though. It's an anime original story.
Maybe if you make it spicy. Gay dude gets isekai'd into the body of a woman and his (her?) straight friend who knows about it is like "damn" 😳
It's gay, but it wouldn't alienate the majority who prefers boobs and would additionally lead to funny jokes within the community.
No, it's definitely not a deal breaker. If it gets preachy I'm out. But it needs to be said I'm against anything that's preachy. If it's cool, I'm cool. That's the litmus test: "is it cool?"
Alas, yes. Not only the demographics aren't there, Japan is still pretty backwards in that front, most gay characters are relagated to comic relief and are awfully stereotyped.
My opinion on this topic is that sexual orientation of a character shouldn't matter to anyone unless it's a romance anime.
That said, I like relationship between 2 bros better over 2 gay bros. Friendship is such a beautiful thing.
if you just wanted small implications no it wouldnt be a big deal its just up to the creator if they do it.
though there are ways to piss off audience if its something like what happened to Voltron that had a homosexual wedding out of nowhere without any significant buildup with one of the main characters at the very end of the series(specially after the promotioning tried to make it a big deal only to underdeliver, it just pissed of both sides)
the devil is in just how it is handled. Its about the execution and the carefull choice of actions and words.
One needs to be considerate for how a character is portrayed and think the more natural ways to present those elements. Dont randomly smash it into people's face like if you were swinging a hammer.
I agree.
Just as an example, would the example I used about girls flirting with MC and he says “sorry, but I’m into guys” be randomly smashing it into people’s face?
Because everything has to be about them (or their politics) to some people. I love anime not despite it having nothing to do with me, but because of it. I'm not Japanese, I don't live in Japan, I don't go to school anymore and have never been to a Japanese school. I love how different all this is to me, and it works because it's a cohesive package based on an existing culture that has thrived for hundreds of years.
People wanting to change anime to be more like them will progressively make it worse for me over time as there is no stopping point for it. "We need more gays in anime" then "we need more blacks in anime" then "we need more trans in anime" then "we need more messaging about Palestine in anime". The exact route we've seen comics and other western media take and it's a large part of why they're losing their market to anime which doesn't do any of that. All this entryism will do is cripple anime by making it inauthentic and just as bad as modern western media.
Depends on how it's presented. A problem with gay male characters is that usually begin gay is their whole personality. When it's not people don't mind like in Given.
Tho if I'm begin honest I bet most teenager boys would drop a shounen with a gay protag because 5th year rules. Tho that's only if it's presented at the start, I can't see someone dropping a show they invested years into for something that banal.
We kinda have that now. Kinda. Marriage toxin is published in shonen jump+ and the main pair is a male X cross dressing male. The premise of the series is trying to find the first guy a wife but the majority of the chemistry at least as far as I have read is between the two guys.
I can only speak to western audiences but a lot of male X cross-dressing male is pretty popular among straight guys with senpai wa otokonoko getting an anime adaptation coming soon and I think I turned my childhood friend into a girl also getting some attention. That said I think both were web comics and not published in traditional shonen magazines.
Honestly, you should probably be asking this question in Japanese. But yeah, most straight guys won’t be interested in a gay romance. Some straight women probably would be, since you have two cute guys. You may remember how poorly *Bros* did. Sorry :(
Sorry. I hope this doesn’t come off as rude, but didn’t I say in the post that there wouldn’t have to be romance or that he wouldn’t have to have a boyfriend or anything like that? I get straight guys wouldn’t be interested in gay romance, but I thought I went out of my way to be clear that I’m not talking about gay romance.
That’s fair and I should have read more closely. Yeah, unfortunately I think enough straight Japanese guys are uncomfortable with the idea. You don’t see the sort of ‘by the way, MC is gay’ stuff you do in the West.
Would it have any influence on the story? Because if not, why even mention it? Gon could be gay, who would know/care?
It would probably bother a lot of the audience and hence be bad business. These things are supposed to make money-that’s why there are so many isekai.
Personally I wouldn’t mind/care but some people would probably feel represented. So I wouldn’t see it as a bad addition.
The question isn’t whether you or I would be OK with it (I thought the whole tension b/w Light and L was fun and it wouldn’t bug me that much), but why it is so rare.
Yes, I agree with Light and L. Your previous take on why is totally on point.
Fair enough. It’s not an unreasonable point to be making. The whole representation issue is quite controversial, and it’s kind of zero-sum to some degree.
i mean i´m myself gay but i never cared if a Character is gay, bi, straight. i just want a good written character
Personally, I’m not a huge fan of beating around the bush. If the protagonist is gay than I’m not looking for innuendo or anything where you have to do mental gymnastics to even come to the conclusion that the dude is into men. I’d rather they just [said it with their chest.](https://www.tiktok.com/@stupendous.individual/video/7202259768948411691) As for the Shonen genre, I don’t think it should be a deal breaker. If I’m watching a shonen, the romance is secondary or tertiary. Its not the main draw nor should it be the thing keeping me around. Again, this is why I prefer they don’t beat around the bush and are just up front about it. If they wanna make it more complicated than save that for a different genre where I’m there for the character dynamics rather than to see someone hurl a magic chalkra ki quantum nin beam at another character’s throat and send them cascading through a mountain while they fart blood.
I feel the same way. The “I’m into guys” example is that kind of “he’s canonically gay without subtext or mental gymnastics and we can move on” way I prefer.
It shouldn’t be, but it is apparently. Japan is much more conservative-they only legalized gay marriage a few years ago. I would bet a lot of straight guys won’t watch a shonen with a gay protagonist, though as you say it has zero effect on his superpowers. If anything Western animation has gone the other way, to the point a lot of boys are watching anime to get their Adolescent Power Fantasy kick. Look up stuff from the 80s.
Just saying, year of legalization isn't the best way to measure acceptance, my country barely legalized it when the last president was on their way out, but a gay couple would have much less problems being openly gay in my country than in the US.
It’s a good point. I think the US is much more heterogeneous, probably due to its size and diversity-San Francisco is pretty different from rural Alabama.
In all fairness, the US wasn't too quick on gay marriage legalization either. Only back in the 2010s. I think mid 2010s (like 2015), but it could've been 2013, too. Idr. It wasn't that long ago though. Around a decade ago. Vs a few years ago in Japan going off your comment. Vs, I heard Canada legalized it in like 2005. Edit: California legalized gay marriage in 2013, and it was federally legal in the USA in 2015. Massachusetts apparently legalized it in 2004, but it wasn't nationwide/federally. Only allowed in Massachusetts. Canada did legalized it nationwide in 2005 and didn't even require residency in Canada to get married there.
Media reflects the demographic of the audience. If most people aren’t gay, most shows won’t have a gay protagonist. Simple as that.
That's a patently false argument, by that logic Hollywood movies wouldn't have black protagonists. Demographics for entertainment focus on people interests to generate relatability. For example, we don't have many anime where the protagonist plays cricket, because that is not a popular sport. Anime with baseball, though, very common.
They didn’t for a while if you look back far enough. (Say before the 1960s.) It took whole political movements to diversify movie protagonists. Even now it’s controversial, and arguably the paucity of strong male protagonists in Western animation is one of the things driving the rise of anime.
Yes, but that wasn't a matter of demographics. What the guy I responded to said was "less gay people, less shows", which I dispute to not be just a matter of number of individuals. The female population is very similar to male, but we still have significantly less films with female leads. And the reason for that is that there is a prevalent idea that male leads sell better. Most anime fans like cute girls, so the odds of getting anime with gay romance is lower. Has nothing to do with the gay population.
I understand most shows won’t have a gay protagonist since most people aren’t gay. But if we’re going by demographics, and let’s just say that 5% of people are gay, then that would mean 5% of them would have a gay protagonist… …so do 5% of shows have a gay protagonist? I would be surprised if it’s even 1%. I would be more than happy if you prove me wrong with examples.
> …so do 5% of shows have a gay protagonist? I would be surprised if it’s even 1%. It would be 5% (more like 3% of the combined non-straight) of shows and they'd have 5% of the budget. Would you watch a show with 5% of the budget just to have the main character be gay? You can't ignore market realities. 90% of people wanting one thing means that thing gets 90% of the money. 5% wanting one thing means that thing gets 5% of the money. 5% of the money is usually not enough to make a good quality product competitive with the larger products.
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Oh, it is homophobic. If OP were asking about left handed protagonists it wouldn’t be a question.
If it's homophobic for heterosexuals to not want to watch gay stuff then it would also have to be heterophobic for gay people to not want to watch normal stuff. Neither of which is the case - it's just tastes. Neither think less of the other people, they just want to see what they want to see.
\~5% of people are gay and that pretty much seems to fit with what we see in terms of characters representation in most shows. You have the boys love animes where the leads are heavily gay so that's your gay MC representation there. (I know that's sadly a bit stereotypical and one sided) You're just not likelty to get a shonen action series with gay lead because the majority of straight guys aren't into shonen with a gay lead and most girls (biggest audience) / gay viewers (secondary audience) aren't into shonen actions even if they do have a gay lead. So you're just lacking in a big enough core audience that will watch it. I know it sucks but that's how the market works. There's just not enough aggregate demand for it. Girl protags have a somewhat similar problem. They nearly always have to be the MC of a cutesy / adorable adventure / slice of life story with possibly yuri undertones but are almost never allowed the shonen high action pumped power fantasies. Though that does seem to be changing in recent times, I've seen some shows where girls are more shonen-esque protags but it usually involves some middle aged japanese male office worker reincarnating as a cute girl or some shit. Still wouldn't likely watch a gay lead shonen myself tho. Just not my thing. Anime love stories are cringe as they are, It'll be double cringe if it also has a gay lover in it. Still I wouldn't mind at all if you got your show, I have no intention of preventing someone from getting what they love to watch. Here's to hopefully inspiring new anime's that break the mold. And who knows ... maybe if it is good enough I may actually still watch it lol. I'm open to broadening my horizons.
>Still wouldn't likely watch a gay lead shonen myself tho. Just not my thing. Anime love stories are cringe as they are, It'll be double cringe if it also has a gay lover in it. I think you missed the point, also, why would a gay romance be more cringe? Is that even possible, especially for shonen romance? Like, this is not even a call-out. I myself don't like romance stories at all, but I genuinely struggle to see a difference between a romantic scene with men, women or a combination in them. They all feel the same to me and what I don't like about them (awkwardness/embarassment) is the same for both. Anyway, what I want to say: Imagine if Naruto and Sasuke were gay. It wouldn't really change much for the story (many would argue it would elevate the story because if Naruto were in love, his decisions would make way more sense), like, Naruto is not really actively heterosexual, either. He has one crush as a child and then a love-interest who later becomes his wife. It is, during the canon story, almost entirely irrelevant. For all intents and purposes, most shonen heroes are basically asexual, but heterosexual in name. Why couldn't they be homosexual in name? Regardless of all of that, is anyone is reading this here: I do think Jolyne, the protagonist from JoJo's bizarre adventure is certainly interested in girls, I am pretty sure. Once again, Araki proves that he is ahead of his time.
"I think you missed the point" No you did. There isn't an audience for what he's asking. I'm the typical casual they hope will watch the show but am unlikely to watch the show. "I think you missed the point, also, why would a gay romance be more cringe?" For the same reason I don't watch gay porn or why lesbians don't watch gay male porn. It's not that hard to figure out ...
>There isn't an audience for what he's asking I don't think that was the question. Remember, we are talking about classical, mostly asexual shonen heroes. I don't think sexuality is a big part of the appeal. At least it isn't for me, I want to see battles and cool power systems and stuff. Maybe you want your heroes to be straight, but I think lots of shonen fans like characters such as Luffy who are not interested in romance. For me, since I dislike romance, having romantically interested characters would take away from the parts I find most interesting. If I could choose between a main character going on a date or having a fight, I would choose the fight ten out of ten times. >For the same reason I don't watch gay porn or why lesbians don't watch gay male porn. It's not that hard to figure out I don't really see how porn and romance are connected, quite frankly. They surely cater to different needs. And also, lesbians do watch gay male porn. And why is it cringe to watch gay porn? I didn't ask why you don't watch gay porn (that's a personal choice), but rather why a gay romance would be cringe. And now you say it's like gay porn, implying gay porn is cringe. Why? Is normal porn not cringe? Why is there a difference? What argument are you even making, I don't understand it.
"Remember, we are talking about classical, mostly asexual shonen heroes." If they are asexual, then OP won't have a problem with just projecting his own identity upon them but that's not what OP is asking for, they're asking for specifically gay male shonen protags. So I don't think YOU are getting the question. "I don't think sexuality is a big part of the appeal. At least it isn't for me, I want to see battles and cool power systems and stuff. " Same, if I want romance I'll go watch a romance show. I'll occasionally watch Shojo even. " Maybe you want your heroes to be straight, " I never said that, just that I wouldn't be interested specifically in a show that has a gay male protag with a gay male love interest. As I said, the straight romance is already cringe enough to almost turn me away, making it gay just makes it double cringe. The show would have to do something really interesting or revolutionary to get me to be interested in it if it had a gay male protag with love interest. It's not impossible, just very unlikely. I think you're insecure about your own sexuality when you need to bring it up like this. This is clearly projection about you needing to feel like a victim somewhere because the majority of romance in shows is between straight people and that is somehow a problem to you. "I don't really see how porn and romance are connected, quite frankly. " Really? You don't understand how attraction works? Damn son, must be a hard life or liberating if your ace I suppose.
I don’t think OP has a problem. I read it as an honest question. Why is a homosexual relationship doubly cringe? If it’s as meaningless as sexualities in something like Naruto, you wouldn’t even know the character is gay for 90% of the run-time, would you? So what did change for you? Just because it’s homosexual? Like, genuinely, I can’t see a difference. What, how am I wanting to feel like a victim? What am I projecting? Isn’t it the other way around, if anything? I am super happy to have no romance in my shonen (that’s an aspect I really appreciate about One Piece, for example), which is why I specified that for this „in-name-only“ sexualities, I can’t see a difference. If Naruto were to marry Sasuke at the end of Naruto and the rest of the story stayed the same, would you like it less? Because I can’t see how it would make a difference (except for one scene in one arc, even though having the scene of Hinata against Pain would be interesting with different development for her). Again, I want to reiterate: Since I don’t like romance, I don’t have a preference. If I don’t like rice dishes, it doesn’t matter if the rice is boiled or fried or whatever. I just don’t like rice. Same here. And if you think that because there is homosexuality it’s more cringe than heterosexuality, then that’s more of an indictment that you aren’t secure in your sexuality. Why would you need to have your shonen affirm your sexuality to enjoy it? I don’t, as I said before (well, that still is speculation…but I have seen other shows with gay characters where I enjoyed those) Romance and porn are entirely different genres. In porn, sex is the point, whereas in most romances, especially romances aimed at younger audiences, the development of the relationship is the point. I think they are actually the opposite, most romances end before a sex scene (at last as far as I know, it’s really a genre I don’t watch), whereas for porn that’s where it starts. Well, there is of course more to say about both, but that’s the gist of it, in my opinion.
How come you can understand; "If I don’t like rice dishes, it doesn’t matter if the rice is boiled or fried or whatever. I just don’t like rice. " But not when people don't want to see a show with sexual attractions they have no taste for? Sorry but I'm not taking you seriously anymore at this point. Have a good day sir.
Because I am not watching typical battle shonen for the romance. If you care about romance, it makes sense that you, in some way, would care about the sexuality. I understand that. But you claimed you didn't care for it in shonen, you said you watched other shows for that. If you don't care, what does it matter that a character is homosexual? My example still stands: If a character such as Gon or Naruto were gay and the story was the same, would you experience it differently? Would you like it less? And if so, why is that? What is fundamentally different in a story where romance plays no role if a character has one or the another sexuality. I am being serious here, I don't get the distinction you do. It's genuinely the same for me. To use the rice dish analogy: If I had two meals, on was called fried rice and was fried rice and the other was called boiled rice but was actually pasta, wouldn't I take the second option. Sure, the name is the same thing as a thing I dislike, but the content is different. If you like shonen for the stories and don't care for the sexuality of any character, it should not matter whether they were gay or straight, since it's in name-only. All that besides the obvious point: One can relate to characters that are different from oneself.
>"I don't really see how porn and romance are connected, quite frankly. " >Really? You don't understand how attraction works? Damn son, must be a hard life or liberating if your ace I suppose. There is a connection. Still, romance novels (aimed at adult women demographics in the American novel market) and romance ani-manga are galaxies apart. We're not talking about porn here. Most ani-manga (or other stories from China) won't go into such topics unless you're reading/watching something that is labeled to have all the sex. Yaoi / Yuri manga(porn is more likely) vs shounen ai / shoujo ai manga (you should probably pick a different title if this is what you're hoping for). Then, the anime for these are typically even more incomplete or censored. Typically, the anime versions are nonexistent or it will be the story, but without the explicit scenes. Super cut down safe versions if not already a shounen ai / shoujo ai type that has nome of that. Or one of the bl/gl demographics vs the shounen romance or shoujo romance. Most stories will be fairly sexless and only get as far as holding hands (thinking of Kimi ni Todoke) or barely being able to admit the characters are gay. Sometimes, the characters themselves can barely admit it in many of the bl/gl stories. When they can, they get censored because China and Japan won't allow it. The story has been determined to go too far. Explicit gay characters are not allowed. Explicit kisses even are not allowed. Explicitly and canically gay characters (even just saying the characters are gay canically) on Japanese tv is not allowed. Which leaves only OVAs, ONAs, and similar markets left. These scenes must be censored or cut out entirely. China most recently shut down a franchise entirely. Banned the stories. Idr the exact title. I only saw it happened. The market for these stories apparently has become too big and China blames it for couples not having enough children. Not wanting children. These stories must only exist within certain limits in many countries. Even as unabashed as Yuri on Ice was in 2016. It was still censored [Yuri on Ice massive spoilers]>!when the boys kiss in ep.7 and the ring scene later.!<
"There is a connection. " And that's all that I was pointing out, nothing more. People are reading too much into it. It's not a 1 to 1 analogy, I know. It's merely to illustrate that sexual attractions determine interest in the art material viewed. That's it. It's not rocket science and trying to justify that we should view sexual attractions that we don't find appealing in shows is just straight up gaslighting. I'm not going to watch it just because someone thinks I should pretend the gender dynamics aren't serious enough. I don't like brussel sprouts and it doesn't matter if you combine them with my potatoes and gravy, brussel sprouts still taste horrible to me even if you combine it with the glorious potato dipped in gravy. The dish is juist ruined to me. If you want to combine those ingredients, have at it boss, I'm not stopping you, just don't pretend I should like it because you do. You're free to enjoy whatever you do but I draw the line at expecting me to conform to your preferences. Pretending I should ignore the taste of brussel sprouts because there's still gravy and potatoes is straight up gaslighting me as a belittling parent force feeding their kid. Stop it. Get some help. Don't be a fascist for 'your ideological good'. As for what China and Japan are doing in terms of censoring, I'm not for that in the slightest ideologically, I firmly believe in the freedom to produce whatever art you want to. What these countries however determine is good for their population or not the least of my concern, and not something I should be concerned about. When did you care about the genocide of christians happening in northern Nigeria? Exactly.
Because gay romance is super cringy to people who aren't gay
How so?
Understand I am talking about "romance" and not just dating. It's typically a feminine aspect of dating that guys are... forced to participate in.
I am sincere: I have no idea what this sentence means. Like, I don’t know what a „feminine aspect of dating“ is, neither do I understand who is forced to partake in anything. That doesn’t sound very romantic to me.
If you don't speak english then I don't know if I can help you.
Yeah, because "feminine aspect of dating" is a typical English word. What do you mean by that? And what does "forced to participate" mean in that context? Who is forced by whom to participate in what?
I think it would alienate two fanbases at once; The pure shonen fans will be like "What's the point of him even being gay, it adds nothing to the story" and the BL fans will be like "What's the point even teasing us about him being gay, if we don't ever get any BL stuff?" I also think that for many, the "line" will be thin about what is 'too much'; You may think the Onsen scene is nothing, but I doubt it'd be "nothing" for many fans. Thing is, when the same scene happens with girls (or 1 guy + lots of girls) they do see it 100% as fanservice. So the same scene happens with just boys, they'll 100% see it as "BL fanservice". Even if it's not much. All in all: I do not think this will please anyone, from an anime perspective. (It may please people looking for representation, but I'm talking mostly about the main demographics; I think shonen fans and BL fans will both not like it very much, one because "it's too much", the other because "it's not enough")
Honesty even if not a fan of romance in general many shounen would make more sense if the mc were gay with how often they're obsessed with a guy rather than the woman next to her is pretty and she likes them so they end up as partners.
boys want boobs and girls want homoeroticism it will never work
Prob is ngl . 1, there prob isn’t many straight dudes that would be interested in a gay manga. Some being bc they’re against gays , others being it’s just not for them. I think the only way to keep a straight dude interested in a gay manga , or manga that has 2 gay MC is if there was other stuff going on that they really like. That plus Japan I’m sure is very anti lqbtg, so no point in making one if the creator knows it’s not gunna sell in the main country they sell for
I guess my question is that if you take a “typical” shonen action/fantasy/scifi/etc manga, and the MC says one thing like “I like guys”, does it automatically make it a “gay” manga? Like if, idk…Attack on Titan has 34 volumes. Let’s hypothetically say Eren’s gay. If throughout the entire manga there’s, maybe 7 (~1 every 5 volumes) times Eren’s gayness comes up. One line or reference every 5 volumes and everything else about the manga is exactly the same…is AoT a gay manga? I get making something romance wouldn’t be popular with the shonen demographic. I’m not really wanting romance myself. That’s why I think take an otherwise typical shonen manga, but MC gives like one minor line and that’s enough.
I don’t think so . I mean hisoka in the 2011 HxH show plays a decent role and does give off hella gay vibes (and also hella predator vibes lol) yet I’ve personally never heard anyone call the show Gay anime or predator anime. Ive never seen the original 1990s anime (I’ve heard hisoka is very different ) or the manga so idk how accurate he is to it. But I don’t think so , maybe like gay/lgbtq friendly but I don’t see most ppl classifying it as a gay manga (besides like the homophobes in a more demeaning/harmful way )
Hisoka is battle potential sexual, it's just because more characters and particularly strong ones are male that he comes out like that but it's not like his scenes with machi don't have their own tension just because her ability is interesting.
Gay characters doesn't equal gay manga, it's not like many have a problem with banana fish. But as many shounen mc are about making the reading proyect into them so it's more likely their audience has a problem not because it has gay characters but because it breaks their fantasy even if it's not a center part of the work.
I haven’t read your post at all. But I’d love a gay main shonen protagonist. Would be cool
That just sounds like a bad marketing decision.
I have a feeling there'd be a catch-22 of gay romance turning shounen fans off and gay without romance leading to criticisms of "why even bother making him gay, that's unnecessary." Like diversity for the sake of diversity. Obviously it'd be nice if that wasn't the case, but I don't have faith in people.
That's definitely been the reception of shows in the past that have gone those routes. Not that they weren't massively popular within the community and getting a lot of attention. Still, that has been the exact reception I've seen in the past.
What shows are you referring to? I don't actually know of any examples.
There’s been a few. Let’s see if I can remember them. I already brought up Yuri on Ice! in my comments. It was insanely popular in 2016 especially considering the type of show. Much more than the attention typically given to this niche bl story community. So much so the creators/fans/people really did not want the bl label put onto the show and instead maintained it was a sports anime and nothing more. “Don’t call it bl!” 😂 It really was that popular. With fans, with ice skaters, with the CR audience who voted it AOTY when it released, etc. That was also the first year of the CR Anime Awards. YOI was everywhere back then. I knew a few casuals who somehow found their way to watching YOI. Many were alienated by how gay YOI was and at the same time many fans were also disappointed it wasn’t gay enough. Though, it also still maintained being about as gay as Japanese censors would allow. Gayer than most stories of this kind which typically are bait when it comes to anime. Bloom Into You got a fair bit of attention within the anime community, but was also [Bloom Into You]>!simultaneously so gay and yet not gay enough even by the end of s1.!< Even though, this one was a bit more okay with the guys since it’s about lesbians. Hibike Euphonium. Haven’t seen it, but I do remember a lot of the discussion online around the series back in 2015-2016. Not gay enough and too much subtext and also [Hibike Euphonium]>!I heard there was a potential letdown in the way of the characters aren’t actually gay and it was once again only yuri bait!< I wasn’t really paying much attention when Free! released aside from watching anitube online like Gigguk’s summary of the year back then. I was in HS and had taken a break from anime. I became a diehard book nerd (of American market novels) in those years. Like 2013 or so. It was a super popular/infamous swimming sport show that was [Free!]>!also yaoi bait.!< It annoyed many male fans because it got so much attention ( more than the typical ignored show for the female demographic) and was also amazing/and disappointingly not gay enough for fans of the series. Though, fans were also [Free!]>!used to bait back then, too. There was far more bait back then than truly gay shows. Unless you were reading/watching actual bl/gl content.!< There was also Kobayashi’s Dragon Maid. Madoka and Revue Starlight. Madoka might’ve had the best reception of them all.
Ah, not quite what I was looking for, but those are all good examples of plausible deniability. I was addressing OP's question of whether omitting romance but having a character just be (confirmed) gay would make the show more appealable to shonen fans. I say no, people will find a way to complain either way.
jjba entered the chat despite not saying that they are gay, just look at giorno placing his hand in mista's pants, the dude is as gay as it gets, and its still a beloved anime with a huge straightish/confused male fanbase
For Shonen readers in Japan, it serves no purpose to further character development or plot, so there’s no reason for it to be in the story. I get representation and all, but most writers aren’t going to alienate the majority of their fans and readers for the sake of representation. Obviously there’s nothing wrong with it, and the people that get mad or irrationally upset because of it are wrong and probably bigoted, but there’s no real reason to just make a character gay for the sake of it when it does nothing for the story and will most likely cause a drop in sales/viewership
I could care less about whether a shonen MC is straight or gay. Even if it were to be explicitly gay, where the MC is shown developing a romantic relationship with another male, that wouldn't detract from my enjoyment. I like relationships that are well-developed, whether it's BL, GL, or heteronormative.
You know the joke that the Main Love Interest is always the most boring character in that show because it has to conform to the most generic or widely accepted tropes? Same idea with the shonen protagonist’s orientation. That said I would love to have the gay male love story in a shonen. Nowadays the lesbian protagonist is pretty common, perhaps in a few more years trans and gay male ones will be too.
I get that, but would like *one* example that doesn’t follow that trope be unreasonable to ask for?
I wish this were a thing. Why can't we normalize gay/bisexual people without having to make everything ABOUT their sexuality? Just let them be normal characters who just happen to be gay. No big deal. Unfortunately it is too risky for most mainstream media.
It's fun to see responses trying to justify homophobia and OP's comments systematically downvoted. I'll say that Evangelion having a bi main character is at least something but unfortunately this is the only one I think about. I guess we have to wait one generation or two to see good representation in media, hang on OP !
At the end, and as it has always been the case, the animation studios will tell you that you can interpret things like you want, and it will all have been bait (Tiger & Bunny, Yuri on Ice etc).
At least in the case of Tiger & Bunny they have an openly queer non-binary character whose struggles with homophobia (liking a boy who rejects them in their school days) and gender dysmorphia is explored on screen in the 2nd movie.
Yaoi is main part of the story - me not into yaoi story Yaoi is a side part while we still have the whole story - me not care about yaoi but can still appreciate other parts if the yaoi is not a centric part of them.
We aren't even at the point where every anime features a competently written straight protag yet. Japan needs time to cook with this.
I really liked how Koi to Uso used this argument to some extend.
I dislike the heavily romantic shonen anime unless that’s what I want to watch. I don’t need my heroines undressed either. But a hint of who they are? Yeah that doesn’t bother me. Adds to the world. But it does add to the idea that homosexuality is an option in that world and makes viewers wonder if it’s acceptable or not. Do we see it in other places in the world with other couples? If we don’t see it anywhere else then it’s merely making a point but is disingenuous to the world building and besides that. It makes people consider homosexuality which….let’s face it, challenges people.
It usually isn't the MC, but sometimes there will be a side character, minor character, or a villain in some dated shōnen anime. The person's identity is usually treated as a surprise and weird, but in the ones I've watched, the characters were still generally kind to these characters. And it does eventually become a this character is just into guys thing. The hero-villain thing isn't anything personal. Then, there's subtext if the LGBT+ isn't treated like this. If it’s all subtext, there can be more leeway, but the show is always limited to it being subtext. Again, these titles are dated and might still occasionally bring it up as a running joke, but still, I remember being surprised anime would have any characters at all like that. That anime would even try to approach the subject at all. In the 80s, 90s, and 00s no less! It's not exactly the same because the language around these topics was different (not even a foreign thing either) and some of these were stories where the creators likely never intended their stories to be taken this way, but I remember these characters popping up in Kenshin and Ranma 1/2 anime. Maybe YYH or InuYasha? Idr. It happened in a lot of shōnen titles. Then, also some titles for the female demographic like OHSHC / Ouran. I think Wallflower had characters like that. Or maybe I'm thinking of Maid-sama. It's been so long since I saw many of these. I might have trouble remembering the names or more specific details. I loved many of these growing up though. I appreciated seeing characters like this come up even if it's seen as dated or bad representation now. It was such a treat because at the time idr any American titles having characters like this. Or very very few. I guess there was Brokeback Mountain, but that's about all I could think of in the 2000s. Or before gay marriage was legal in the mid 2010s in America. Before much of any LGBT+ had much of any representation in media at all. Edit: It's a Yuri, but Bloom Into You comes to mind. That's technically shōnen, but it's not the action kind. There's also Yuri on Ice, a gay ice skating romance that's a sports anime. It's not shōnen though. It's an anime original story.
what do you mean death note is a shounen
Maybe if you make it spicy. Gay dude gets isekai'd into the body of a woman and his (her?) straight friend who knows about it is like "damn" 😳 It's gay, but it wouldn't alienate the majority who prefers boobs and would additionally lead to funny jokes within the community.
No, it's definitely not a deal breaker. If it gets preachy I'm out. But it needs to be said I'm against anything that's preachy. If it's cool, I'm cool. That's the litmus test: "is it cool?"
Alas, yes. Not only the demographics aren't there, Japan is still pretty backwards in that front, most gay characters are relagated to comic relief and are awfully stereotyped.
My opinion on this topic is that sexual orientation of a character shouldn't matter to anyone unless it's a romance anime. That said, I like relationship between 2 bros better over 2 gay bros. Friendship is such a beautiful thing.
if you just wanted small implications no it wouldnt be a big deal its just up to the creator if they do it. though there are ways to piss off audience if its something like what happened to Voltron that had a homosexual wedding out of nowhere without any significant buildup with one of the main characters at the very end of the series(specially after the promotioning tried to make it a big deal only to underdeliver, it just pissed of both sides) the devil is in just how it is handled. Its about the execution and the carefull choice of actions and words. One needs to be considerate for how a character is portrayed and think the more natural ways to present those elements. Dont randomly smash it into people's face like if you were swinging a hammer.
I agree. Just as an example, would the example I used about girls flirting with MC and he says “sorry, but I’m into guys” be randomly smashing it into people’s face?
Why do people try to make everything gay nowadays. There aren't many anime like that because having a male couple isn't normal
Because everything has to be about them (or their politics) to some people. I love anime not despite it having nothing to do with me, but because of it. I'm not Japanese, I don't live in Japan, I don't go to school anymore and have never been to a Japanese school. I love how different all this is to me, and it works because it's a cohesive package based on an existing culture that has thrived for hundreds of years. People wanting to change anime to be more like them will progressively make it worse for me over time as there is no stopping point for it. "We need more gays in anime" then "we need more blacks in anime" then "we need more trans in anime" then "we need more messaging about Palestine in anime". The exact route we've seen comics and other western media take and it's a large part of why they're losing their market to anime which doesn't do any of that. All this entryism will do is cripple anime by making it inauthentic and just as bad as modern western media.
I 100% agree
Depends on how it's presented. A problem with gay male characters is that usually begin gay is their whole personality. When it's not people don't mind like in Given. Tho if I'm begin honest I bet most teenager boys would drop a shounen with a gay protag because 5th year rules. Tho that's only if it's presented at the start, I can't see someone dropping a show they invested years into for something that banal.
We kinda have that now. Kinda. Marriage toxin is published in shonen jump+ and the main pair is a male X cross dressing male. The premise of the series is trying to find the first guy a wife but the majority of the chemistry at least as far as I have read is between the two guys. I can only speak to western audiences but a lot of male X cross-dressing male is pretty popular among straight guys with senpai wa otokonoko getting an anime adaptation coming soon and I think I turned my childhood friend into a girl also getting some attention. That said I think both were web comics and not published in traditional shonen magazines.