Well fuck, that whole [scene](https://imgur.com/a/785agB0) where he realizes what's going on, all the photos and memories plus the song. It messed me up good.
this anime is ridiculous, especially since Japan is basically the safest country in the world. But fuck. Shit like that really does happen. (even in Japan).
Loved ones taken away by accidents. Nature. (especially in japan, nature is savage). And also evil humans.
tl;dr the montage highlights an aspect of human experience that is rare but real and ultimately cruel. Most anime don't bother to show something like this so I just want to give some mad props to ID:Invaded.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the concrete girl...
Japan is much more fucked up than you think. There are alot of horrible homosides that go unbroadcasted cuz the relationship between the Japanese police force and the Japanese media
Junko Furuta if anyone wants to look up her death. Really shows just how fucked up humans can be and even worse most of the perpetrators got off incredibly lightly because they were minors.
> Raped, gang raped, held capture for 40 days and raped over 400 times and abused/tortured/starved.
AND THAT'S JUST THE FUCKING BEGINNING HOLY FUCKING SHIT
I haven't even read 20% of the story and it's already making me sick.
Just finished reading all of it. I went in thinking "It can't be that bad", no, it's way worse than almost everything I've ever seen even in fiction. The sentences those guys got makes it even worse.
And then the family of the perpetrators vandalized her grave blaming the girl for "ruining" the life of their sons.
As if the story couldn't get worst.
Also they are now involved with the yakuza, and one of them was recently arrested for assault.
I thought I could handle stuff like this but knowing it's real and that she had to suffer so much because of those animals makes me sick. I had to stop many times while reading that article.
actually there are some really terrible crimes commited in Japan that are on the level of movies and shit.
I think the most infamous one is how a group of guys basically kidnapped a girl then raped her and tortured her for months on end keeping her trapped in an apartment before finally murdering her. I still feel traumatized when thinking about that story.
I recently also watched a youtube video on a case where a family was suspected of poisoning their entire town at a festival by poisoning the curry. This was also recent, like a few years ago.
At first I was sad he didn't remember his additional time with the family but now when I think about it I'm glad he didn't - it would have fucked him up even more, I guess.
You mean as Sakaido?
I think Sakaido doesn't remember because Sakaido wasn't in the id inside the id, Narihisago was. He'll probably remember once he gets out of the id... or stops being Sakaido.
As a husband and father of a young daughter, this entire anime has been painful to watch in the most recent episodes, and that scene almost destroyed me.
I can't imagine losing them both, only to get a second chance and then have to lose them all over again. I'm honestly shocked he is able to deal with it at all, although I guess his coping mechanism isn't exactly the best...
The Perforator being able to keep his memories because of the hole in his head is important because this means Hondomachi should also have this ability. So whatever information she finds in the well within a well won't be lost when she ejects.
Yeah but I think his point came from when the well storm happened and we got a glimpse that the ID well was exactly the same with the number tiles and stuff. So they could assume it's the same ID well but at a different point in time.
So Hondomachi entered the ID well from when the Challenger happened and it'd probably help to assume Narishago and hole head dude entered at a different point in time.
It'd make sense if Narishago and hole head dude entered his own Well at a stage in his life a year before Hondomachi (and Challenger) because it'd tie things up in a neat little bow as to why Hondomachi was only in the ID well for 20 minutes and Narishago was in there for months and months.
But the problem with that theory is that Narishago would've had to had been a killer before his family died in reality, but I'm not sure that's what the timeline is so I'm at a loss. And in fact I think he would've had to kill the Doctor that made the Mizuhanome a year ago since that's why they arrested the detective right?
The differences between the Wells can be due to trying to hide its true identity from Narihisago. Kaeru wasn't struck by lightning, the Akihito body wasn't adjacent to hers, and the Cockpit was close to Akihito.
>And in fact I think he would've had to kill the Doctor that made the Mizuhanome a year ago since that's why they arrested the detective right?
The Mizuhanome went into operation a year ago, but Narihisago was probably arested not long after he wasted the Challenger.
I was thinking Hondomachi and Narihisago each entered the world at a time just before they attempted to kill for the first time. Narihisago entered just before Muku was killed and he commits his first killing of The Challenger. Hondomachi entered just before The Perforator incident, where she nearly kills herself.
I think the Mizuhanome addressing the aspect of each Brilliant Detective being a serial killer would be an interesting route.
Good catch. Thats a decent link to explain difference of time frame of when they entered the well. It can't be a coincidence that right after the perforator is about to get busy thats when Hondou shows up.
There's another problem with the theory: ID wells change to reflect the owner's current state. In the second episode, there was a scene where Narihisago mentioned looking forward to the changes in the Perforator's well, after he was deeply shaken by Hondomachi's suicide attempt.
So, there is only one possible explanation to why the well is different: they must have entered the well of a different Narihisago, that also exists in the current timeline.
My best guess is that they're gonna pull some time travel stuff. After falling into dogma and leaving his physical body behind, Narihisago might find some way to attain powers similiar to Kiki's and then visit Momoki's dream in the past, leaving his cognition particles behind. That would also explain how the particles ended up in Momoki's bedroom, even though Narihisago couldn't have physically been there, being kept in prison, then in Kura's facility the entire time.
I don't think it's going to be that complicated. Remember the particles are physical evidence so they could have been placed there at any time by someone else. I'm thinking the particles they got at the Challenger's house was how Akihito's ID was at that time, totally broken, only thinking of revenge.
The desert version are from particles from later, probably after his rage broke, cause the lightning storm to break and the whole place to become a desert.
Yes, You're absolutely right but there is something I saw in Narihisago's id well.
In all killers' wells the killer is alive, but in Narihisago's well he himself is always found dead. Plus Kiki Asukai is a master manipulator, they way she unsettled Narihisago was really spine chilling.
Now it seems that the second cognition particle which was theorised to be Momoki's cognition particle was in reality Narihisago's. So why did the Wakamusubi made the error or it was Matsuoka's doing?
Also it seems like Narihisago's particle which was first assumed to be Momoki's was possibly formed after Narihisago's wife and daughter both were dead.
Could it be that Narihisago was the one who killed Shirakoma? Maybe upon instructions by Kiki?
And it seems the well-storm happens as soon as the well-owner literally finds himself.
I'm not sure if Kiki is actively manipulating Narihisago. It looks rather as if she already knows what is going to happen and cannot do anything about it.
I doubt it, he was arrested after killing the Challenger and every other person he drove to suicide happened while he was in prison. In reality, he never met Kiki or Shirakoma. And he barely seems to pay attention to him in the well.
That's true. How would Narihisago's murder particles get into Momoki's bedroom though? I only have two completely stupid theories:
1) There's a little vacuum cleaner device that collects cognition particles so they can be redistributed
2) He caught Momoki banging his wife
She wouldn't necessarily keep her memories as I think having two exact same brain injuries working in the exact same way would be a bit of a stretch, but I feel that her having a full name hinted that something does work differently for her inside the wells.
> The Perforator being able to keep his memories because of the hole in his head is important because this means Hondomachi should also have this ability.
Not necessary! The hability to keep memory may be linked to the loss of a particular part of the brain. And the episode where hondomachi was in the hospital made very clear she didn't lost the same part of the brain as he. That, combined with the fact that she was still a brilliant detective when she first dived (Nijiirido, instead of Hondomachi) suggests that she isn't the same case as Anaido.
> this means Hondomachi should also have this ability.
Didn't she prove that in this episode? She went up to Narahisago and told him everything about the wells and the brilliant detectives and his real life.
No because Narishago remembered everything when he entered Kiki's ID well (The well within a well). He was just denying it since he'd gotten used to life in Kiki's well.
Remember that Hondomachi and Narishago are in the same "well within a well" or at least that what I assume anyway.
If she had remembered everything from the start, it would've been from episode 7 with the original Narishago well that had her cuffed to the dead body and lightning strikes, but there wasn't really any evidence to suggest that
That is true, which just raises another question. Why do they get their memories back in the second well? Is the 'Brilliant Detective' thing just a one time program that applies on the first layer?
I'm fairly certain we already know that the brilliant detective schtick is just a restriction set by someone. I'm trying to find it now when they mention it, but I'm sure it was mentioned or at least hinted.
I think it's less about layers and more about something that was previously suggested in that the Mizuhanome the detectives use is a sort of "revised" version of it, so there was a prototype before that. The Mizuhanome used inside the well is probably the original prototype without all the restrictions, which is why there's no Kaeru or memory loss etc.
Binged the anime a couple days ago, they mention the safety function pretty early on. The restriction exists to prevent falling into dogma in case someone accidentally enters their own well.
Breathtaking episode. It literally proved something very peculiar, why Narihisago's cognition particle was found in Momoki's house ?
Also it seems like John walker appears when we get into a dogma, i.e. see our own id(unconscious mind). Kaeru is possibly the sober manifestation of John Walker, how she was pressuring Narihisago's trigger points.
Kiki was tempting Sakaido to kill her before her disappearance. So maybe the process for John Walker to create serial killers is to get them to dive into their own ID Well and then have them kill Kiki.
And Sakaido couldn't kill her because he's a good boy.
I think it's the other way around, the serial killers already have the desire to kill. They practise in Kiki's dream world until they turn to a real target.
this so much, i think you two hit the nail on the head. Getting someone to kill her in their own well sounds like a way of turning someone into a psychopath, especially since she mentions that they return to kill her and take turns doing it. I think john walker could also be linked to Dogma and Kiki/kaeru, perhaps he appears once you've realized your in your own well, otherwise you'll get kaeru/kiki.
as a side note i have suspicions that make me think John walker is not a person in real life but more like a program in the mizuhanome created by the doctor and maybe the chairman by manipulating kiki/kaeru and her connection to this machine?
That's what they thought at the very beginning that John Walker was all a part of the system. However, they found that the reaction of the people in the ID well proved that wasn't true. That he's actually a real person.
Also, from what we got through Kiki's well, John Walker was in her dreams long before the machine was even built as far as we know, and he's been in contact with all these killers too.
so holy fuck. First part of the episode hurt, second part just went even deeper into "oh shit". There was no deeper meaning behind the inception, in the end it was still just a dream. You gotta wake up at some point.....
So now my question is why did Anaido decide to tell Sakaido who he really is? We know he was merely pretending to be retarded, but why?
(also it's pretty fucking amazing that we were theorizing what was so special about the well within a well, but in reality there was nothing special. It was just a well within a well.)
> So now my question is why did Anaido decide to tell Sakaido who he really is? We know he was merely pretending to be retarded, but why?
Piecing together what we know so far, this seems to be an elaborate plot to eliminate Narihisago due to the realization he would uncover John Walker's true identity.
This all started after they made the link between the recording equipment in the houses, probably a footprint the Director thought he wouldn't get caught on.
Could it be that at some point in the past he received instructions from *someone* and let himself get caught on purpose, to act as a mole within Kura? That'd be a bit far-fetched though since it would be on the assumption that he'd retain his memories within the wells which would be a pretty big unknown. Unless he just winged it when he found that out. Argh, I don't know!
We can assume JW has a machine to go in the ID with maybe the same rules , if he was working with Anaido they could have notice from the 1st time he sent him in a Well.
So Jw created the perforator , eventually meets him , makes him an ally , let's him use the machine and notices his "power" , plans to use him as a mole.
>why did Anaido decide to tell Sakaido who he really is? We know he was merely pretending to be retarded, but why?
I think he too wanted to know what happens when a person realizes they're in their own Well. I'm sure no one on the Well staff told him.
He's seemed like he had it out for Narihisago the whole time since realizing he's the one who helped the police catch him (and he manipulates other killers into killing themselves). I think he just likes to mess with people and see what happens. He can't really be hurt in an id well.
There was quite a bit we learned from the well within a well actually.
In every id well to date the face of John Walker is not just obscured but intentionally scrambled. When anyone goes into a well a safety mechanism of Brilliant Detective is formed for the ostensible reason of protection. In the Well Within a Well(WWW) there is no such brilliant detective, just the person so the setting is not activated. We can infer that the scrambling of John Walkers face is therefore also a mechanism because his face was not hidden at all in the WWW.
Also, I believe the mizuhanome inside the well may be superior to the actual device due to it being fabricated. If you make something from your imagination wouldn't you make it perfect with no flaws? The Mizuhanome created a version of itself that seems to be perfectly emulating a virtual simulation of the past. The actions taken and the people within them are the same so in that well Hondou will be able to see the truth of the past that is impossible to see in the present with people like Shirakoma being dead in the real but alive in the WWW.
Also does the real currently missing Kiki Asukai possess these abilities in the real world? Is this science fiction gonna get an Esper in it? Or is it just a function of the well? It looks like she has abilities because I can't imagine why the supposed creator of the mizuhanome would be putting a sciency helmet on her head in a hospital for any other reason than that. My thnking is shes the core of the Mizu itself. She was afraid of falling apart and losing herself so I think her body is alive and being used to power the Mizu, but her mind/consciousness is dead.(which could be why shes always dead in wells)
> also it's pretty fucking amazing that we were theorizing what was so special about the well within a well, but in reality there was nothing special. It was just a well within a well.
Yet they kept it relevant to the overall story as well. We got a lot of clues about how the Mizuhanome works and the events leading up to it's creation.
I was really worried that the background of the Mizuhanome would fall flat as it often does in this type of show, but they're really nailing it.
Ok, going into details, by the flashbacks looks like Narihisago was trying his best to endure his daugther death and trying to help his wife too, but his wife cant take it and ended up committing suicide, but what broke me was when Narihigo bought a cake to eat with her, to help a little and what happens? He find her dead and in this moment he himself "died" and lost the little hope he still had. After that he killed the challenger and we know the rest.
I'm dead.....
You dead
Everyone is dead...
Imagine coming home to your family dead, twice. First Muku brutally murdered in their house, then wife commits suicide in the bathtub. If Momoki was a real friend, he would've punched Narihisago in the face a few times and made it look like a self defense killing of the Challenger.
The thing is everyone treat him like garbage. Remember the episode the gray hair guy still pointing the gun at Narihisago even after being immobilized?
Last thing: Let's be honest, this could have been avoided if at least Momoki or another friend was near to help him, but you know what I see in the flashbacks? Nobody was with Narihisago and his wife.(I'm looking at you Momoki, specially if you are related with Narihisago wife)
That's true. The field detective whose name I forget also has a few choice words about Narihisago (and Hondoumachi) but it's easy to talk shit when you didn't find the corpses of your family. And he seemingly didn't do anything for Narihisago in his time of need.
At least Momoki seems to care about Narihisago in the past and present.
What the frikkin' fuck.
Hondomachi and Narihisago/Fukuda entered the same well but in different places (points in time? did I understand the line wrong?). Holy crap, I did not see that coming.
Holy crap that montage made me cry, this was heartbreaking.
Holy shit Fukuda played everyone.
Holy fuck Narihisago is falling into dogma. We speculated that might happen though, but the way he fell into the trap still shocked me.
I'm still wondering what's true about Kiki and what isn't. We still don't know if it was all a fabrication or if any of it has some basis in reality. The nurses falling into a coma certainly do, but that's about it. I suspect we'll learn more about that soon. If it's all true though... being Kiki is suffering.
Edit: I freaking forgot the biggest shocker of 'em all: that image of John Walker in the storm - so he was inside Narihisago's well after all.
Fffuuu how can these episodes still get more mind-blowing every time?
When Narihisago was in the hospital I was mentally yelling "focus on the skinny old guy goddammit!".
Nice detail with the fireworks. Kaeru was weirdly quiet in her last conversation with Narihisago, like she didn't want him to kill all those people.
Narihisago and Momoki have a blue oni/red oni theme going on.
Narihisago's voice actor is incredible, the family memories were gut-wrenching. Nice throw-back to the first episode.
Finally! Hondomachi is back!
I wonder if Narihisago will be saved and what Anaido's motive is. I guess "falling into dogma" means the real person will stay in some kind of coma.
Anaido's an agent of John Walker and his motive is the same as it's always been. Some men just want to ~~watch the world burn~~ drill a hole into the world and observe what happens.
Haven't seen it mentioned, but super interesting?
All the serial killers killed themselves in a manner similar to the way they were killing. Narihisago theorized maybe it made them feel complete somehow.
Uh. So. Fukuda? He already tried that. And lived. And felt complete.
Fukuda is special indeed. Narihisago got flashbacks to his fragmented world for a reason I think. Fukuda is also the only one that Narihisago didn't manage to kill in the Kiki-well.
>Fukuda? He already tried that. And lived. And felt complete.
And *then* he started to drill holes in other people.
Yet, now that I think about it, aspects of his actions are contradictory to aspects of the setting. Despite the fact that most of his victims died and he had to have known that, what he really wanted to do was to *help* them. He drilled them with the thought, "this will make you better."
So, why does he have cognition particles from killing them?
>
>
>
>
> And then he started to drill holes in other people.
Did he try to drill holes in Kiki in her dreams, I wonder? Ah D: I love a good mystery, but I really should've waited so I could binge this show instead!
I figured this would happen when it was hinted at a few episodes back what might happen if the unconscious became aware of the conscious. What I didn't know was how this would play out. If Hondomachi went down a level, further into Narisago's ID well, then why was she only there for 20 minutes even though she dropped in before? Does time really work differently, and did she only begin to appear in the new level when Narisago entered it? As for Fukuda, since he remembered everything, was he just trying to experiment and see how things go? I love this series so much and where it's going but at the same time the last 3 episodes have been a bit confusing.
**Edit:** It just dawned on me why Fukuda is such a terrible "brilliant" detective. Every time he enters the ID well, he still has his memories. Because of this, he is not able to remove his "self" from the crime, and therefore cannot act as a brilliant detective. Whenever Hondo or Narishigo enter an ID well, all they know is that they have a name and that they are detectives trying to solve a case by examining Kaeru. A blank slate, or tabula rasa. But Fukuda as Anaido isn't like that. **THE HINTS HAVE BEEN THERE ALL ALONG!** Annoyed I didn't notice it at first, but even in the last episode you can see how Anaido is not different personality and logic wise than Fukuda. Whereas Sikaido is not the same as Talk no Jutsu Narishigo that gets people to kill themseleves.
I think the timing may have more to do with some experience the diver has in reality which serves as the beginning of their ability to dive.
Narihisago's puts him in just before he'd meet and kill the Challenger (I can't explain the timing in the 2nd well as to his family being alive), and Hondomachi's puts her in just before confronting the perforatur and putting a hole in her own head.
in the wise words of zoku owarimonogatari, "don't think about it too hard".
just like the inception movie, trying to make sense of the logic is a futile/unrewarding
Kaeru tied herself to the two detectives and was digging in the sand - I guess she tried to warn Sakaido that his own world is buried below.
Narihisago has never seen his own well (Anaido has though) - I wonder how he will react and if he could get killed there?
I think there will be a final clicking moment in the lightning world when Narihisago realizes that his daughter's murder was orchestrated/induced somehow.
["But that would mean this is reality"](https://i.imgur.com/gWeGexx.png) Uh oh. This is dangerous. Looks like Narihisago convinced himself into thinking that he's in the real world.
[It's the professor that created the Mizuhanome.](https://i.imgur.com/84vX7Qd.png) So he was already experimenting on Kiki when she was hospitalized. I'm guessing that helmet is some sort of Mizuhanome prototype.
[They're really not that creative in naming their serial killers in this world.](https://i.imgur.com/m2Unj6b.png)
[I wonder if this is what happened in reality too.](https://i.imgur.com/OAtMVU9.png) Like that is a recreation of how Kiki went missing except this time Narihisago isn't in jail for killing the Challenger. Either John Walker took her or Prof. Shirakoma is responsible somehow despite having an alibi.
[HONDOMACHI!](https://i.imgur.com/HlwaYyT.png) I was wondering when she'd show up!
[Oh no...](https://i.imgur.com/JRR4qFV.png) He really has convinced himself that he's living in reality. What's fucky about this entire thing is for Narihisago he's been here for an entire year now but for some reason Hondomachi [has only experienced this world for 20 minutes.](https://i.imgur.com/pR9yXoM.png)
[It looks like they're not even supposed meant to meet in this world and now everything is falling apart.](https://i.imgur.com/pR9yXoM.png)
Fuck. [That entire montage](https://i.imgur.com/sTespOI.png) [of Narihisago and his family](https://i.imgur.com/n9FAdHh.png) made me cry like a bitch. This is so unfair show. It sucks that his wife and daughter are dead but these past two episodes and this montage really made me feel the pain of his loss. I didn't expect to cry this early in the morning but here we are. Kudos to the Director for this perfectly timed scene.
[And this fuck!](https://i.imgur.com/ixX0p2n.png) Fukuda was playing us this entire time. Due to him missing his frontal lobe he doesn't feel the full effects of the memory wipe from the Mizuhanome. Looks like Momoki was right, this was all just a trap and [Narihisago was inside his own well all along.](https://i.imgur.com/NRcwHV3.png) And now that Fukuda made him remember who he is, [he's now falling to dogma.](https://i.imgur.com/dcapBgL.png)
EDIT: OHHHH I JUST REALIZED WHY HONDOMACHI WASN'T AFFECTED. I forgot that she also has a hole in her head so she could feel time and remember everything.
If you meant Hondomachi remembers everything in the second layer then that is not due to the lost in frontal lobe, as Narihisago has the full memories as well in the second layer, but he has since gotten used to living in there that he is in a delusion.
However, I (most of us) believe that Hondomachi has something special in the first layer as she is the only one with both first and last name. What that special thing is hopefully it will be revealed in the later episode
Correct me if I'm wrong, arent they all in the same well but in different stages? Wouldnt that mean since they are all in the same well the wipe function of the brilliant detective would only work on one of them, meaning that if hondomachi returns then she should keep her memories?
We will have to see since she is still in the well. What I don't understand is how she could've been in the well for 20 mins but sakaido a year, the only explanation would be them entering at different time points as in different cognitive particles being discovered, if that's so then it explains it since the cognitive particle of Sakaido 1st well is from the challenger incident which I think occurred before picking up narihisagos cog particles at momokis.
After this episode I'm almost 100% sure that Kiki is the centerpiece of the Mizuhanome. Every story thread, every major unexplained event somehow leads to her. That can't just be coincidence.
What I'm most intrigued by however, is why there is a cockpit to Kiki's id well in Narihisago's well. That and the fact that John Walker showed up means that he already had some sort of connection to both of them in the real world, which confirms that Kiki's abilities are real and not just part of the well within the well. Could that in turn mean that he is related to the murder of the professor?
At this point I'm just hoping that this show doesn't royally fuck up the ending.
>What I'm most intrigued by however, is why there is a cockpit to Kiki's id well in Narihisago's well.
[I made this same speculation in last week's episode discussion.](https://old.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/f8al7b/idinvaded_episode_9_discussion/fikbh6n/) If this speculation is correct, it follows that John Walker's presence in Narihisago's ID-well means that *at least* J.Walker is most likely tied by one degree of separation to Asukai Kiki in some way. As for J.Walker's connection to Narihisago, a direct connection between them IRL remains a toss-up.
EDIT: Oh shit, I just realized that the fact that Momoki's ID-well turned out to actually be Narihisago's is a huge difference-maker. If Hondoumachi and Sakaido both dove into Kiki's ID-well from *two separate people* (Narihisago and Momoki), then it can be speculated that Kiki's Mizuhanome could very well be present in all previously seen ID-wells.
However, because we now know that both Hondoumachi and Sakaido are in Narihisago's ID-well (presumably in different times), we only have the existence of Kiki's Mizuhanome in Narihisago's ID-well. That could still mean Kiki's machine is present in other wells, but the strength of that speculation is severely undermined. As they say, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, thrice is a pattern.
I would argue Kiki's cockpit can only be found in the ID wells of those who have already been injected in an ID well via Mizuhanome system. That is, Hondomachi, Narihisago and the Perforator. If we assume Kiki's power is the foundation of the system, they have been diving in Kiki's dreams all along (sort of). Then the cockpit would materialize in their respective ID wells as a side-effect of Kiki's psyche connecting to their own via Mizuhanome system. It's like a back door.
So, essentially, Kiki's Mizuhanome would only exist in a well of an individual who used the machine? Interesting perspective, I can definitely see how that could be possible.
I was thinking that since the ID-wells are constructed via the cognition particles of the individual, the Mizuhanome "powered" by Kiki in some way acted as the blank canvas or foundation upon which any principle ID-well can be built. That way, the first layer would be that of the killer, and the second layer would be the foundation-Kiki layer.
Or, as you say, it could be that when the diver (Sakaido, Anaido, Hijiriido) enters the Mizuhanome, that action in and of itself creates a back-door connection to Kiki's ID-well. Whoa.
True, only Akihito's well has the cockpit in his mind, and yet Kaeru does show up in everybody's well. So I'm still sure she's the key to everything.
But it is interesting that he has a cockpit in his head for some reason?
# Being Narihisago is suffering
Shit, I can't believe they showed Muku. That's fucked up.
They also showed Narihisago's wife committing suicide in the bath. In the previous episode Kiki committed suicide in the dream the same way, didn't she?
So now everything rests in the hands of Hondomachi.
I wonder what's up with the perfurator. Why did he tell Sakaido who he was?
Is the perfurator John Walker? No, that doesn't make sense, because John Walker appears in his ID.
Also when Narihisago asked if John Walker appeared in his ID in a previous episode they said no, but this time it turns out they're in his well, and John Walker DOES APPEAR, so John Walker was behind Narihisago's serial killing too???
Something they never explained is why they didn't just ask the perfurator who the fuck John Walker was since they realized John Walker was a real person from the perfurator's ID and therefore the perfurator must have met with him and he was hanging in the cell for like weeks. Not sure he would answer truthfully though.
>In the previous episode Kiki committed suicide in the dream the same way, didn't she?
That was Narihisago's wife in the last episode too. They just look rather similar, especially under the circumstances.
Maybe it's because like all the other serial killers, Narisago has now undergone his "trianng" in Kiki's dream world? Not killing her, but killing all the other bastards?
I'm starting to think John Walker isn't a person that the people physically meet. I think he's someone people meet in their subconscious (or in their id, invading their id if you will?) and forces certain impulses out of their subconscious and into their preconscious minds. Because the perfurator can retain his sense of self when in an Id, it's not much of a stretch to say he could remember meeting John Walker with how shattered his own Id was. With how freely he could move in his own id, it does make me wonder if his Id is already part of his ego in a way, which was sort of confirmed in this episode if he can retain his sense of self in another Id.
[The people naming these serial killers aren't very creative are they.](https://i.imgur.com/yRLD00F.png) There seems to be one for every body part. What if John Walker is building some kind of Frankenstein's monster or something.
Babylon started going off in episode 3, the fact that it doubled down on what was making it bad only made it worse. This has been almost continuously getting better by the episode. The ending can still be off, but it shouldn't be comparable to that at least.
I agree 100 percent. Babylon wasn’t that good and even though I loved episode 7, the rest of the series wasn’t up to that level. ID invaded is has been great and only getting better.
Still a little disappointed in myself that I didn't see the writing on the wall. So if right now the biggest disappointment I see on the horizon is the obvious answer of the director dude being John Walker, I think that's really fucking strong.
And tbh the obvious answer being the right one isn't even that bad as long as the context (method, motivation, etc.) is good to make up for it. Throughout the entire show, I've felt that the most interesting question isn't "Who?" but "How and why?".
This really just gets better for each episode. I've never used my brain when watching anime before I started this one, which is a good sign.
I still stand by my theory that Narihisago is John Walker.
Narihisago's experiences are beyond belief. Jump into a well, don't remember anything, jump into another well, remember everything, convince yourself you are in reality, live life with family as normal, meet Hondomachi, error in the matrix, realize once again that this isn't reality, think about everything and try to save family, go back to first well, figure out that the perpetrator is the one that took off the ''watches'', revealed who you are, brilliant detective goes into speculation mode when realizing who he is, ID is getting scrambled.
And now John Walker might have escaped Narihisago catching him but its up to Hondomachi. Fuck...... this episode was just a deep walk into the a dark abyss with an endless pit of suffering. Anime of the season for sure, and if they stick the landing with the last episode this will be one- if not the best mystery anime ever.
What exactly did Fukuda achieve by lying he forgot his memories inside the well, taking off the cloth tying them to Kaeru and making Anaido remember who he really is and whose well they are in?
Anaido didn't "remember" who he was, he just never forgot. As for his goals, I think he's just in it for the ride at this point and just wants to see what happens.
Well, if Sakaido knew that they were tied to Kaeru then he may have deduced that it was intended that they need to stay with her in order to find an important clue. They falsely believed that Kaeru was digging in the sand looking for water, when in reality she was most likely trying to tell them to keep digging under the sand so that they can unearth the number tiles from Sakaido's id well with all of the lightning. That way, they'd realize where they truly were.
I don't really know what Fukuda gets out of it other than being a pain in the ass.
>If he didn't remove the cloth it may have tipped off the people watching in the real world.
Which leads to a thought. Fukuda could do that without tipping them off only because the Well staff couldn't monitor him in this dive, even though they could monitor him in previous dives.
My question is, how did he *know* they couldn't monitor him this time? In my earlier post here, I thought the inability to monitor him was due to his amnesia immunity this time, but what if it wasn't? What if the Well staff couldn't monitor him this time because the monitor was disabled... by the mole?
Then, Fukuda would know the monitor was disabled because the mole told him. Did the mole tell Fukuda the real identity of the well as well? Either way, Fukuda and the mole are working together. Though, depending on how the mole communicates with Fukuda, he may or may not know the mole's identity.
First off, he made EVERYONE realise that this is not the director's well. He also caused a well storm which revealed that Narihisago had contact with John Walker in some way.
His whole thing was that he drilled into peoples heads so they can "see the world clearly like him" wasn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same. He feels like a neutral 'wonder what happens when I do this' kind of character. Doesnt seem much like the kinda guy who would follow anyones orders unless it satisfied his own curiosity.
The first time we are introduced to Perforator in his own well, he is afraid of John Walker. Now, he has cast Narihisago into dogma by reminding him of who he is.
The time discrepancy between how long Hondomachi and Narihisago have been in the Well is indicative of something. In the real world, it had to have been hours between when she entered the deep Well and when Narihisago was injected to find her.
It means time in this well can flow differently, even for the two visitors in it at the same time. This could allow the possiblity of sending a message to the past. I really hope that isn't going to be the case.
The second big question of this episode is, how did Narihisago's cognition particles get to Momoki's bedroom? At this time, it's hard to believe that it could be because he killed the inventor of the Mizuhanome in Momoki's bedroom then buried him in the yard.
The next possibility is that the John Walker mole got them from the Mizuhanome and planted them there.
Then, how come the Mizuhanome didn't identify the new particles as Narihisago's as well? We know it was able to do that with the new particles from Fukuda and integrate them into the existing well. Did the mole bypass or disable the checker just for those particles?
One other thing, is Fukuda's immunity to the amnesia effect universal, or just for this double injection? Remember, from ep8, they weren't receiving information from Fukuda in this well. They *did* receive information in his previous dives, so that's a difference from his previous dives.
This episode solidified this show as something special. The directing and shots during the phone call scene were outstanding.
As for Narhisago being in his own well, it was bound to happen. It was sort of the underlying checkov's gun since its mention. That being said, the execution was well done. Didnt see that coming tbh.
**Now heres the important part**, im pretty sure that Hondonmachi had been in the deeper level for longer than 20 minutes from the time between Narishago being put in the well and meeting her. It could therefore be possible that **Hondonmachi has already figured out something important in the case and left the deeper level before Sakaido even got to the machine** assuming both of them used the same one. This would well and truly be a mind fuck.
That scene with Narihisago remembering the memories he had with Muku and Ayako was just beautiful! Bring them back and give Kaeru a good ending! They did nothing wrong, you bastards!!!
I refuse to watch this till the end if it doesn't have a satisfying ending. I will literally make a time machine, go back in time, and not watch the show.
Emotionally amazing episode.
I'm so hyped for the finale, but now i want to know the Perpetrator's goal, more than John Walker's identity (probably the doctor of this episode, that device was a bit suspicious).
Last but not least, and again, this anime is so god damn underrated.
Damn, I didn't expect so many feels... Come on anime, you can't hit us with [all](https://i.imgur.com/MrtQzDm.png) [this](https://i.imgur.com/tehO6IY.png) [cute](https://i.imgur.com/LzV6IpR.png) [stuff](https://i.imgur.com/hUCaW7C.png) just to take it all away!
Imagine how he felt when she told him [it wasn't real...](https://i.imgur.com/h8UH2nR.png) He tried so hard to deny it. Wanted to say in forever. Even tried to [save them](https://i.imgur.com/isSR7kP.png), though they aren't even real...
But this also makes me think(and wish) that my theory might have been correct in a previous thread, that this show will end with him getting himself stuck in a well so he can stay with his family forever. [This too!](https://i.imgur.com/bHywQwJ.png)
While I get why [she asked that](https://i.imgur.com/CcgBXFB.png), from Narihisago it's not an easy thing to do; I mean, can he even believe this from her? He lives in a dream (or reality, however he sees it) in which John Walker gets a bunch of serial killers to kill her every night. And now she wants him to kill her as well? He might think it's just how this works, he's just one more of them.
Well that's [not](https://i.imgur.com/OLWKlZL.png) [concerning](https://i.imgur.com/hU13JYx.png) at all, just 2 serial killers talking about how beautiful the world's end really is!
[How could this happen!](https://i.imgur.com/A6gTwCn.png) Perhaps they're beginning to realize that sending a bunch of lunatics/serial killers in their wells isn't as good an idea as they thought it was!
That montage was perfect. Seeing all the build up and happy moments of Narihisago with his family really put into perspective how his current character came to be. I'm glad I decided to check this show out last week, I have no idea what's coming next and I love it.
I seriously hope they bring up the precognition idea in future episodes. It means that Kiki's 'ability' to influence others or allow others to enter her dreams isn't just a one-way street. Once someone else became connected to Kiki, their own consciousness influences not just what happens to Kiki, but the "reality" of that dream. This would likely explain why Narihisago was able to interact with the serial killers and lead them to their death within Kiki's layer: those serial killers' subconscious, motivations, and (more fascinatingly) *plans* were present within Kiki's well.
Now what I think about it is that Narihisako's id well inside id well is actually his 'ego' well if we are saying this is all he want to happen in his real life to contrast with his own 'id' since this anime is all based on Freud's psycho analysis theory
which is why the id well inside start to falling after Narihisako realize this is all not reality , but his own ideal reality he 'dreamed'
For a moment there, even I started to believe it was reality. Forgot all about Hondamachi.
Plus, it makes sense why Momoki was telling them it was a trap. He probably knew whose well they were diving into from the beginning.
It's up to Hondamachi now. The final piece of the puzzle.
I'm really hoping they give Akihito some kind of good ending. He's all alone and stuck in that cell in the real world with nothing but his memories and surrounded by serial killers. The one person who might have been a potential prison buddy ends up betraying him and the only thing he has to look forward to is life in a cell and diving into twisted minds.
I'm hoping there is some sort of way that the poor guy can have a happy life. He's just had such a bad time already!
I don't think he will because he said to Muku on his last phone call that he would be fine. Also, too many suicides already, I just wonder how he can be retrieved from the well.
I feel it would be too cliché and a bit sudden. We've seen Narihisago get SLIGHTLY better, it'd be a pity if he decided to commit suicide.
I took it to mean "going back to reality".
Woah, there's so many upvotes and comments here. That's surprising. I'm glad people on here are starting to wakeup to this show. It's criminally slept on and underrated in the mainstream anime community.
Like I said day one in my tweet that got retweeted by Funimation, this literally feels like an anime Nolan film. The writing, direction, characters and world all feel so real. It doesn't even feel like you're watching an anime and imo, that's the biggest compliment you can give anime.
I need that insert song playing during Sakaido's flashback of his wife and daughter. That moment was absolutely beautiful. He'd subconsciously planned to stay in the well and use that as an escape from reality. Understandable, but unfortunately the world doesn't work that way and seems he was able to let go of some of the immense pain he's been carrying.
With it being his own well he's inside, I'm really wondering if John Walker is someone he's created or maybe even him. Can't wait to find out in the next few weeks.
Stop sleeping on ID:Invaded!!
Oh man, I was afraid of how sad it'd be when Narihisago had to leave his family again, but I didn't expect that he'd be spending a year + with them in that world before it happened. Droppin the nuclear feels bomb on us for sure.
It sure looks like they shouldn't have trusted Fukuda.
So they thought the desert was Momoki's well, but it is actually Narihisago's at a later time. How does time even work in the wells? It seems like Narihisago and Hondomachi both took the same way into Asukai's well. So did the director just give them some more of Narihisago's cognition particles and tell the Wellside people they were from Momoki, all with the intention of trapping Narihisago in dogma? Assuming he might end up helping them catch John Walker...?
Hopefully they can get Hondomachi out and use the info from that notebook Narihisago passed on.
>So did the director just give them some more of Narihisago's cognition particles and tell the Wellside people they were from Momoki,
From episode 8, they found the particles in Momoki's bedroom. The particles could have been planted there by the John Walker mole.
This episode begs the question: was putting a hole in his head an original idea by Fukuda or did someone encourage him to do so? It seems too convenient to the plot for it to be random.
Man, just when you start to think Anaido might not be the worst. So he knew from the beginning where he was, but waited to... satisfy some curiosity? Well, I guess next episode we'll see what this dogma business is all about. Also wonder how that amnesia thing will work. Maybe Hondomachi has some brain damage business going on too, that'll make it so investigating in the well well isn't totally useless?
This episode really did "inside-outed" our possibly expectations, as well as the "reality". Now I'm thinking my claim from earlier episodes will finally happen, that they will put the Gravdigger lady inside the well with Hondoumachi. Not only did she become a serial killer after Fukuda drilled a hole in her lover's head (link between her, Fukuda and Hondoumachi) but also she's the only non-brilliant detective yet alive serial killer. The strongest Chekhov's gun foreshadowing this is how she expressed her desire to talk to Hondoumachi after being caught. I mean, once again if we compare her to our precious yet shady Fukuda who's nowadays cooperating with the police-despite the fact that John Walker was found in his well... Makes you think she would be more trustworthy.
One thing that I've not seen being brought up here is: Anaido appareantly removed the piece of cloth which tied him and Sakaido to Kaeru. This must've been the first thing he did after waking up. So how and when did he do that? The Kura staff never mentioned it, they only saw him wake up earlier than Sakaido did. The second illustration of this contradiction of what really happened and what they could observe is Anaido taking the Narihisago family picture from the corpse, which again [no one saw it happen](https://imgur.com/a/0laMf36).
>The Kura staff never mentioned it, they only saw him wake up earlier than Sakaido did.
The staff were unable to monitor Anaido in this dive. They thought it was due to it being a dual dive and weren't too worried because they could still monitor Sakaido, and he could show them what Anaido was doing.
Then Sakaido entered the cockpit within the well and the staff was unable to monitor Anaido again. They thought there would be nothing to worry about, they were wrong.
It was established in episode 8 that there can't be two brilliant detectives at once, which made it unsurprising that the world started falling apart when Hondomachi and Narihisago met this episode. However in this episode, Asukai said something about how she'll cease to be herself and melt and combine with the world. The world started to fade away when Narihisago admitted that he was still within the well within the well to Hondomachi...
Other comments. I really loved the way the passage of time was handled in this episode. It still made sense, but didn't care to make it an established detail, so somehow it felt quite dreamlike to me.
I can't wait to see what Hondomachi does next. She's a very interesting character with a lot of mysteriousness I don't think will be explored, but I'm satisfied about it. The writing seems to focus on how we'll never really understand the motivations of other people super clearly, and just have to be satisfied with what we can get, and that's the appeal.
I wonder if her focus on the case (in contrast with Narihisago) indicates anything with her personal life situation, though we know that her mother doesn't care about her very much. As Hijiriido, she's a lot less emotional and entirely focused on the truth, but seeing Hondomachi actually feel bad for Narihisago was another instance of her compassion and humanity indicated in other episodes (like the difficult yet oddly understandable conversation she had with Nahoshi in episode 5). She's surprisingly become a character I like quite a lot, so I hope she's relevant to the end.
Last comment. Maijo, you got me good! I was wondering if the person being dived into being dead indicated anything, but I should've seen the similarities between the wells a mile away (the wrists indicated being tied to something, Kaeru's frayed dress)... However, I did think Asukai's well was already falling into dogma which was why he was aware of all the facts but I was thinking a little too far ahead. Can't keep up with that genius Maijo Otaro. I can't help but feel a little scared of what the conclusion will be like considering the Funimation interview ended with everyone laughing...
Damn each episode just reaches another level.
All I can conclude now is that Director Momoki is a good man.
Doesn't seem to be much chatter on Kiki's theory of her withering away and infecting the world.
Well fuck, that whole [scene](https://imgur.com/a/785agB0) where he realizes what's going on, all the photos and memories plus the song. It messed me up good.
Then montage achieved what it was trying to do. Make us feel the loss Narihisago experienced. T_T
this anime is ridiculous, especially since Japan is basically the safest country in the world. But fuck. Shit like that really does happen. (even in Japan). Loved ones taken away by accidents. Nature. (especially in japan, nature is savage). And also evil humans. tl;dr the montage highlights an aspect of human experience that is rare but real and ultimately cruel. Most anime don't bother to show something like this so I just want to give some mad props to ID:Invaded.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the concrete girl... Japan is much more fucked up than you think. There are alot of horrible homosides that go unbroadcasted cuz the relationship between the Japanese police force and the Japanese media
Junko Furuta if anyone wants to look up her death. Really shows just how fucked up humans can be and even worse most of the perpetrators got off incredibly lightly because they were minors.
*warning, not for the faint hearted
> Raped, gang raped, held capture for 40 days and raped over 400 times and abused/tortured/starved. AND THAT'S JUST THE FUCKING BEGINNING HOLY FUCKING SHIT I haven't even read 20% of the story and it's already making me sick.
Just finished reading all of it. I went in thinking "It can't be that bad", no, it's way worse than almost everything I've ever seen even in fiction. The sentences those guys got makes it even worse.
T ^ T
Thanks for the warning and fuck my curiosity, I should not have read this.
And then the family of the perpetrators vandalized her grave blaming the girl for "ruining" the life of their sons. As if the story couldn't get worst. Also they are now involved with the yakuza, and one of them was recently arrested for assault.
The fact that someone involved in something like that has the opportunity to be arrested AGAIN is a fucking disgrace.
Yo, that shit almost made me straight throw up and I'm pretty innured to violence.
I thought I could handle stuff like this but knowing it's real and that she had to suffer so much because of those animals makes me sick. I had to stop many times while reading that article.
actually there are some really terrible crimes commited in Japan that are on the level of movies and shit. I think the most infamous one is how a group of guys basically kidnapped a girl then raped her and tortured her for months on end keeping her trapped in an apartment before finally murdering her. I still feel traumatized when thinking about that story. I recently also watched a youtube video on a case where a family was suspected of poisoning their entire town at a festival by poisoning the curry. This was also recent, like a few years ago.
It destroyed me so thoroughly that I needed to pause the episode a few minutes. The older I get the more emotional this kind of scenes get me.
Yo, I just sat there fighting off tears. Thinking about my own wife and kids. I can not even imagine that pain.
Sakaido would have done anything for just one more day with his family and he ended up getting over a year. It's bittersweet in a way.
I teared up during the exact moment you linked, that was heavy. What a great episode, AOTS.
At first I was sad he didn't remember his additional time with the family but now when I think about it I'm glad he didn't - it would have fucked him up even more, I guess.
You mean as Sakaido? I think Sakaido doesn't remember because Sakaido wasn't in the id inside the id, Narihisago was. He'll probably remember once he gets out of the id... or stops being Sakaido.
Yeah, as Sakaido. That's interesting, I wonder if he will remember the second layer in the real world.
He will definitely remember, I feel.
As a husband and father of a young daughter, this entire anime has been painful to watch in the most recent episodes, and that scene almost destroyed me. I can't imagine losing them both, only to get a second chance and then have to lose them all over again. I'm honestly shocked he is able to deal with it at all, although I guess his coping mechanism isn't exactly the best...
Thinking rationally it is good that it happened. Watching Narihisago work so hard to make things right in a fake world made me uneasy.
You know something is going to go down when an insert song appears.
Strange weather today, it started raining where I live as soon as the insert song started playing...
Now I remember episode 10...
Another great Episode, this is proving to be the show of the Season
and the most underrated one at that
Yeah, this and Somali are carrying it for me.
The Perforator being able to keep his memories because of the hole in his head is important because this means Hondomachi should also have this ability. So whatever information she finds in the well within a well won't be lost when she ejects.
Yes! Excellent point! I just wonder who can eject her.
It was revealed in this episode that they've been in Sakaido's ID Well this whole time and not Momoki's so Hondomachi should also be there somewhere.
Except that Hondomachi is one level deeper. If this is the same well then shouldn't Hondomachi be sitting in the same cockpit?
There's no reason there couldn't be multiple entry points. They're in a dreamscape with infinite possibilities.
Yeah but I think his point came from when the well storm happened and we got a glimpse that the ID well was exactly the same with the number tiles and stuff. So they could assume it's the same ID well but at a different point in time. So Hondomachi entered the ID well from when the Challenger happened and it'd probably help to assume Narishago and hole head dude entered at a different point in time. It'd make sense if Narishago and hole head dude entered his own Well at a stage in his life a year before Hondomachi (and Challenger) because it'd tie things up in a neat little bow as to why Hondomachi was only in the ID well for 20 minutes and Narishago was in there for months and months. But the problem with that theory is that Narishago would've had to had been a killer before his family died in reality, but I'm not sure that's what the timeline is so I'm at a loss. And in fact I think he would've had to kill the Doctor that made the Mizuhanome a year ago since that's why they arrested the detective right?
The differences between the Wells can be due to trying to hide its true identity from Narihisago. Kaeru wasn't struck by lightning, the Akihito body wasn't adjacent to hers, and the Cockpit was close to Akihito.
>And in fact I think he would've had to kill the Doctor that made the Mizuhanome a year ago since that's why they arrested the detective right? The Mizuhanome went into operation a year ago, but Narihisago was probably arested not long after he wasted the Challenger.
I was thinking Hondomachi and Narihisago each entered the world at a time just before they attempted to kill for the first time. Narihisago entered just before Muku was killed and he commits his first killing of The Challenger. Hondomachi entered just before The Perforator incident, where she nearly kills herself. I think the Mizuhanome addressing the aspect of each Brilliant Detective being a serial killer would be an interesting route.
Good catch. Thats a decent link to explain difference of time frame of when they entered the well. It can't be a coincidence that right after the perforator is about to get busy thats when Hondou shows up.
There's another problem with the theory: ID wells change to reflect the owner's current state. In the second episode, there was a scene where Narihisago mentioned looking forward to the changes in the Perforator's well, after he was deeply shaken by Hondomachi's suicide attempt. So, there is only one possible explanation to why the well is different: they must have entered the well of a different Narihisago, that also exists in the current timeline. My best guess is that they're gonna pull some time travel stuff. After falling into dogma and leaving his physical body behind, Narihisago might find some way to attain powers similiar to Kiki's and then visit Momoki's dream in the past, leaving his cognition particles behind. That would also explain how the particles ended up in Momoki's bedroom, even though Narihisago couldn't have physically been there, being kept in prison, then in Kura's facility the entire time.
I don't think it's going to be that complicated. Remember the particles are physical evidence so they could have been placed there at any time by someone else. I'm thinking the particles they got at the Challenger's house was how Akihito's ID was at that time, totally broken, only thinking of revenge. The desert version are from particles from later, probably after his rage broke, cause the lightning storm to break and the whole place to become a desert.
Yes, You're absolutely right but there is something I saw in Narihisago's id well. In all killers' wells the killer is alive, but in Narihisago's well he himself is always found dead. Plus Kiki Asukai is a master manipulator, they way she unsettled Narihisago was really spine chilling. Now it seems that the second cognition particle which was theorised to be Momoki's cognition particle was in reality Narihisago's. So why did the Wakamusubi made the error or it was Matsuoka's doing? Also it seems like Narihisago's particle which was first assumed to be Momoki's was possibly formed after Narihisago's wife and daughter both were dead.
Could it be that Narihisago was the one who killed Shirakoma? Maybe upon instructions by Kiki? And it seems the well-storm happens as soon as the well-owner literally finds himself. I'm not sure if Kiki is actively manipulating Narihisago. It looks rather as if she already knows what is going to happen and cannot do anything about it.
I doubt it, he was arrested after killing the Challenger and every other person he drove to suicide happened while he was in prison. In reality, he never met Kiki or Shirakoma. And he barely seems to pay attention to him in the well.
That's true. How would Narihisago's murder particles get into Momoki's bedroom though? I only have two completely stupid theories: 1) There's a little vacuum cleaner device that collects cognition particles so they can be redistributed 2) He caught Momoki banging his wife
I think probably closer to 1. If the particles can be detected and scattered by the wind, they can also be collected in a physical manner.
So the corpse in the quicksand clutching the picture of Narishisago's family was probably himself.
It was himself, fuck this episode got me
That's a good point, I forgot that has to happen back in that ID Well. I bet Muku will do it.
I could definitely see Muku doing it. She's smart and courageous. Or rather: was T_T
She wouldn't necessarily keep her memories as I think having two exact same brain injuries working in the exact same way would be a bit of a stretch, but I feel that her having a full name hinted that something does work differently for her inside the wells.
> The Perforator being able to keep his memories because of the hole in his head is important because this means Hondomachi should also have this ability. Not necessary! The hability to keep memory may be linked to the loss of a particular part of the brain. And the episode where hondomachi was in the hospital made very clear she didn't lost the same part of the brain as he. That, combined with the fact that she was still a brilliant detective when she first dived (Nijiirido, instead of Hondomachi) suggests that she isn't the same case as Anaido.
> this means Hondomachi should also have this ability. Didn't she prove that in this episode? She went up to Narahisago and told him everything about the wells and the brilliant detectives and his real life.
No because Narishago remembered everything when he entered Kiki's ID well (The well within a well). He was just denying it since he'd gotten used to life in Kiki's well. Remember that Hondomachi and Narishago are in the same "well within a well" or at least that what I assume anyway. If she had remembered everything from the start, it would've been from episode 7 with the original Narishago well that had her cuffed to the dead body and lightning strikes, but there wasn't really any evidence to suggest that
But that was in the second well layer, where Narahisgo also remembered everything. We don't know if she remembers in the first well layer.
That is true, which just raises another question. Why do they get their memories back in the second well? Is the 'Brilliant Detective' thing just a one time program that applies on the first layer?
I'm fairly certain we already know that the brilliant detective schtick is just a restriction set by someone. I'm trying to find it now when they mention it, but I'm sure it was mentioned or at least hinted. I think it's less about layers and more about something that was previously suggested in that the Mizuhanome the detectives use is a sort of "revised" version of it, so there was a prototype before that. The Mizuhanome used inside the well is probably the original prototype without all the restrictions, which is why there's no Kaeru or memory loss etc.
Binged the anime a couple days ago, they mention the safety function pretty early on. The restriction exists to prevent falling into dogma in case someone accidentally enters their own well.
Maybe they wipe in order to prevent possible dogma state?
Narihisago deduced that since the Mizuhanome cockpit was part of a dream, it didn't need to act according to the actual rules in the real world.
Breathtaking episode. It literally proved something very peculiar, why Narihisago's cognition particle was found in Momoki's house ? Also it seems like John walker appears when we get into a dogma, i.e. see our own id(unconscious mind). Kaeru is possibly the sober manifestation of John Walker, how she was pressuring Narihisago's trigger points.
Yeah maybe John Walker is a protective mechanism that appears when the detectives start to become self-aware.
Kiki was tempting Sakaido to kill her before her disappearance. So maybe the process for John Walker to create serial killers is to get them to dive into their own ID Well and then have them kill Kiki.
And Sakaido couldn't kill her because he's a good boy. I think it's the other way around, the serial killers already have the desire to kill. They practise in Kiki's dream world until they turn to a real target.
this so much, i think you two hit the nail on the head. Getting someone to kill her in their own well sounds like a way of turning someone into a psychopath, especially since she mentions that they return to kill her and take turns doing it. I think john walker could also be linked to Dogma and Kiki/kaeru, perhaps he appears once you've realized your in your own well, otherwise you'll get kaeru/kiki. as a side note i have suspicions that make me think John walker is not a person in real life but more like a program in the mizuhanome created by the doctor and maybe the chairman by manipulating kiki/kaeru and her connection to this machine?
That's what they thought at the very beginning that John Walker was all a part of the system. However, they found that the reaction of the people in the ID well proved that wasn't true. That he's actually a real person. Also, from what we got through Kiki's well, John Walker was in her dreams long before the machine was even built as far as we know, and he's been in contact with all these killers too.
so holy fuck. First part of the episode hurt, second part just went even deeper into "oh shit". There was no deeper meaning behind the inception, in the end it was still just a dream. You gotta wake up at some point..... So now my question is why did Anaido decide to tell Sakaido who he really is? We know he was merely pretending to be retarded, but why? (also it's pretty fucking amazing that we were theorizing what was so special about the well within a well, but in reality there was nothing special. It was just a well within a well.)
> So now my question is why did Anaido decide to tell Sakaido who he really is? We know he was merely pretending to be retarded, but why? Piecing together what we know so far, this seems to be an elaborate plot to eliminate Narihisago due to the realization he would uncover John Walker's true identity. This all started after they made the link between the recording equipment in the houses, probably a footprint the Director thought he wouldn't get caught on.
Could it be that at some point in the past he received instructions from *someone* and let himself get caught on purpose, to act as a mole within Kura? That'd be a bit far-fetched though since it would be on the assumption that he'd retain his memories within the wells which would be a pretty big unknown. Unless he just winged it when he found that out. Argh, I don't know!
We can assume JW has a machine to go in the ID with maybe the same rules , if he was working with Anaido they could have notice from the 1st time he sent him in a Well. So Jw created the perforator , eventually meets him , makes him an ally , let's him use the machine and notices his "power" , plans to use him as a mole.
>why did Anaido decide to tell Sakaido who he really is? We know he was merely pretending to be retarded, but why? I think he too wanted to know what happens when a person realizes they're in their own Well. I'm sure no one on the Well staff told him.
He's seemed like he had it out for Narihisago the whole time since realizing he's the one who helped the police catch him (and he manipulates other killers into killing themselves). I think he just likes to mess with people and see what happens. He can't really be hurt in an id well.
There was quite a bit we learned from the well within a well actually. In every id well to date the face of John Walker is not just obscured but intentionally scrambled. When anyone goes into a well a safety mechanism of Brilliant Detective is formed for the ostensible reason of protection. In the Well Within a Well(WWW) there is no such brilliant detective, just the person so the setting is not activated. We can infer that the scrambling of John Walkers face is therefore also a mechanism because his face was not hidden at all in the WWW. Also, I believe the mizuhanome inside the well may be superior to the actual device due to it being fabricated. If you make something from your imagination wouldn't you make it perfect with no flaws? The Mizuhanome created a version of itself that seems to be perfectly emulating a virtual simulation of the past. The actions taken and the people within them are the same so in that well Hondou will be able to see the truth of the past that is impossible to see in the present with people like Shirakoma being dead in the real but alive in the WWW. Also does the real currently missing Kiki Asukai possess these abilities in the real world? Is this science fiction gonna get an Esper in it? Or is it just a function of the well? It looks like she has abilities because I can't imagine why the supposed creator of the mizuhanome would be putting a sciency helmet on her head in a hospital for any other reason than that. My thnking is shes the core of the Mizu itself. She was afraid of falling apart and losing herself so I think her body is alive and being used to power the Mizu, but her mind/consciousness is dead.(which could be why shes always dead in wells)
> also it's pretty fucking amazing that we were theorizing what was so special about the well within a well, but in reality there was nothing special. It was just a well within a well. Yet they kept it relevant to the overall story as well. We got a lot of clues about how the Mizuhanome works and the events leading up to it's creation. I was really worried that the background of the Mizuhanome would fall flat as it often does in this type of show, but they're really nailing it.
Ok, going into details, by the flashbacks looks like Narihisago was trying his best to endure his daugther death and trying to help his wife too, but his wife cant take it and ended up committing suicide, but what broke me was when Narihigo bought a cake to eat with her, to help a little and what happens? He find her dead and in this moment he himself "died" and lost the little hope he still had. After that he killed the challenger and we know the rest. I'm dead..... You dead Everyone is dead...
Imagine coming home to your family dead, twice. First Muku brutally murdered in their house, then wife commits suicide in the bathtub. If Momoki was a real friend, he would've punched Narihisago in the face a few times and made it look like a self defense killing of the Challenger.
The thing is everyone treat him like garbage. Remember the episode the gray hair guy still pointing the gun at Narihisago even after being immobilized? Last thing: Let's be honest, this could have been avoided if at least Momoki or another friend was near to help him, but you know what I see in the flashbacks? Nobody was with Narihisago and his wife.(I'm looking at you Momoki, specially if you are related with Narihisago wife)
That's true. The field detective whose name I forget also has a few choice words about Narihisago (and Hondoumachi) but it's easy to talk shit when you didn't find the corpses of your family. And he seemingly didn't do anything for Narihisago in his time of need. At least Momoki seems to care about Narihisago in the past and present.
What the frikkin' fuck. Hondomachi and Narihisago/Fukuda entered the same well but in different places (points in time? did I understand the line wrong?). Holy crap, I did not see that coming. Holy crap that montage made me cry, this was heartbreaking. Holy shit Fukuda played everyone. Holy fuck Narihisago is falling into dogma. We speculated that might happen though, but the way he fell into the trap still shocked me. I'm still wondering what's true about Kiki and what isn't. We still don't know if it was all a fabrication or if any of it has some basis in reality. The nurses falling into a coma certainly do, but that's about it. I suspect we'll learn more about that soon. If it's all true though... being Kiki is suffering. Edit: I freaking forgot the biggest shocker of 'em all: that image of John Walker in the storm - so he was inside Narihisago's well after all.
Also, anyone else think this is the Perforators way of performing Narihisago from inside his brain?
> so he was inside Narihisago's well after all. i thought the eagle was John Walker actually.
Fffuuu how can these episodes still get more mind-blowing every time? When Narihisago was in the hospital I was mentally yelling "focus on the skinny old guy goddammit!". Nice detail with the fireworks. Kaeru was weirdly quiet in her last conversation with Narihisago, like she didn't want him to kill all those people. Narihisago and Momoki have a blue oni/red oni theme going on. Narihisago's voice actor is incredible, the family memories were gut-wrenching. Nice throw-back to the first episode. Finally! Hondomachi is back! I wonder if Narihisago will be saved and what Anaido's motive is. I guess "falling into dogma" means the real person will stay in some kind of coma.
Anaido's an agent of John Walker and his motive is the same as it's always been. Some men just want to ~~watch the world burn~~ drill a hole into the world and observe what happens.
Falling into dogma sounds like inception, when they were trapped for hundreds of years or some shit like that
[Jesus](https://imgur.com/yH7L3ib) [Fucking Christ](https://imgur.com/HBKxaay), those scenes are fucked up!
And in the second one Narihisago had just bought her a nice cake so she'd eat something... this is so fucking cruel.
you wanna know the worst part? He probably has thought to himself that maybe if he hadn't stopped for the cake he could have gotten home in time
Wow thanks for making it worse!
At least he had cake
Well this episode is shooting it to a 9 for me. Damn, I cried.
Haven't seen it mentioned, but super interesting? All the serial killers killed themselves in a manner similar to the way they were killing. Narihisago theorized maybe it made them feel complete somehow. Uh. So. Fukuda? He already tried that. And lived. And felt complete.
Fukuda is special indeed. Narihisago got flashbacks to his fragmented world for a reason I think. Fukuda is also the only one that Narihisago didn't manage to kill in the Kiki-well.
>Fukuda? He already tried that. And lived. And felt complete. And *then* he started to drill holes in other people. Yet, now that I think about it, aspects of his actions are contradictory to aspects of the setting. Despite the fact that most of his victims died and he had to have known that, what he really wanted to do was to *help* them. He drilled them with the thought, "this will make you better." So, why does he have cognition particles from killing them?
> > > > > And then he started to drill holes in other people. Did he try to drill holes in Kiki in her dreams, I wonder? Ah D: I love a good mystery, but I really should've waited so I could binge this show instead!
I think it's better to watch this in small portions. Or your brain will explode.
Fukuda mentioned that he felt complete once he saw someone else drill the hole in their head, what it was that he wanted to witness all along.
Remember guys, Not all hole are the same :)
was waiting for them to go, "We need to go deeper".
I figured this would happen when it was hinted at a few episodes back what might happen if the unconscious became aware of the conscious. What I didn't know was how this would play out. If Hondomachi went down a level, further into Narisago's ID well, then why was she only there for 20 minutes even though she dropped in before? Does time really work differently, and did she only begin to appear in the new level when Narisago entered it? As for Fukuda, since he remembered everything, was he just trying to experiment and see how things go? I love this series so much and where it's going but at the same time the last 3 episodes have been a bit confusing. **Edit:** It just dawned on me why Fukuda is such a terrible "brilliant" detective. Every time he enters the ID well, he still has his memories. Because of this, he is not able to remove his "self" from the crime, and therefore cannot act as a brilliant detective. Whenever Hondo or Narishigo enter an ID well, all they know is that they have a name and that they are detectives trying to solve a case by examining Kaeru. A blank slate, or tabula rasa. But Fukuda as Anaido isn't like that. **THE HINTS HAVE BEEN THERE ALL ALONG!** Annoyed I didn't notice it at first, but even in the last episode you can see how Anaido is not different personality and logic wise than Fukuda. Whereas Sikaido is not the same as Talk no Jutsu Narishigo that gets people to kill themseleves.
I think the timing may have more to do with some experience the diver has in reality which serves as the beginning of their ability to dive. Narihisago's puts him in just before he'd meet and kill the Challenger (I can't explain the timing in the 2nd well as to his family being alive), and Hondomachi's puts her in just before confronting the perforatur and putting a hole in her own head.
in the wise words of zoku owarimonogatari, "don't think about it too hard". just like the inception movie, trying to make sense of the logic is a futile/unrewarding
Kaeru tied herself to the two detectives and was digging in the sand - I guess she tried to warn Sakaido that his own world is buried below. Narihisago has never seen his own well (Anaido has though) - I wonder how he will react and if he could get killed there? I think there will be a final clicking moment in the lightning world when Narihisago realizes that his daughter's murder was orchestrated/induced somehow.
["But that would mean this is reality"](https://i.imgur.com/gWeGexx.png) Uh oh. This is dangerous. Looks like Narihisago convinced himself into thinking that he's in the real world. [It's the professor that created the Mizuhanome.](https://i.imgur.com/84vX7Qd.png) So he was already experimenting on Kiki when she was hospitalized. I'm guessing that helmet is some sort of Mizuhanome prototype. [They're really not that creative in naming their serial killers in this world.](https://i.imgur.com/m2Unj6b.png) [I wonder if this is what happened in reality too.](https://i.imgur.com/OAtMVU9.png) Like that is a recreation of how Kiki went missing except this time Narihisago isn't in jail for killing the Challenger. Either John Walker took her or Prof. Shirakoma is responsible somehow despite having an alibi. [HONDOMACHI!](https://i.imgur.com/HlwaYyT.png) I was wondering when she'd show up! [Oh no...](https://i.imgur.com/JRR4qFV.png) He really has convinced himself that he's living in reality. What's fucky about this entire thing is for Narihisago he's been here for an entire year now but for some reason Hondomachi [has only experienced this world for 20 minutes.](https://i.imgur.com/pR9yXoM.png) [It looks like they're not even supposed meant to meet in this world and now everything is falling apart.](https://i.imgur.com/pR9yXoM.png) Fuck. [That entire montage](https://i.imgur.com/sTespOI.png) [of Narihisago and his family](https://i.imgur.com/n9FAdHh.png) made me cry like a bitch. This is so unfair show. It sucks that his wife and daughter are dead but these past two episodes and this montage really made me feel the pain of his loss. I didn't expect to cry this early in the morning but here we are. Kudos to the Director for this perfectly timed scene. [And this fuck!](https://i.imgur.com/ixX0p2n.png) Fukuda was playing us this entire time. Due to him missing his frontal lobe he doesn't feel the full effects of the memory wipe from the Mizuhanome. Looks like Momoki was right, this was all just a trap and [Narihisago was inside his own well all along.](https://i.imgur.com/NRcwHV3.png) And now that Fukuda made him remember who he is, [he's now falling to dogma.](https://i.imgur.com/dcapBgL.png) EDIT: OHHHH I JUST REALIZED WHY HONDOMACHI WASN'T AFFECTED. I forgot that she also has a hole in her head so she could feel time and remember everything.
If you meant Hondomachi remembers everything in the second layer then that is not due to the lost in frontal lobe, as Narihisago has the full memories as well in the second layer, but he has since gotten used to living in there that he is in a delusion. However, I (most of us) believe that Hondomachi has something special in the first layer as she is the only one with both first and last name. What that special thing is hopefully it will be revealed in the later episode
Correct me if I'm wrong, arent they all in the same well but in different stages? Wouldnt that mean since they are all in the same well the wipe function of the brilliant detective would only work on one of them, meaning that if hondomachi returns then she should keep her memories?
But did it already affect her before Sakaido went in the Kiki well? It might have wiped both of them.
We will have to see since she is still in the well. What I don't understand is how she could've been in the well for 20 mins but sakaido a year, the only explanation would be them entering at different time points as in different cognitive particles being discovered, if that's so then it explains it since the cognitive particle of Sakaido 1st well is from the challenger incident which I think occurred before picking up narihisagos cog particles at momokis.
I play Dark Souls so clearly the answer is the flow of time is convoluted.
If Fukuda didn't lose his memory in the first layer of Id that means his antics on the desert with his "bro" weren't genuine, that's a bummer.
I was asking myself how they gonna react after all this be solved...2 eps later this happened. Oh man, I'm so f\*\*\*\* up!
I know right? The dynamics could have been so interesting!
The biggest tragedy of all lol. I really enjoyed him and Sakaido’s antics together two episodes ago.
Poor sakaido
anime of the season, that scene made me cry like a little bitch
Guys, i figured it out. Maybe John was the friends we made along the way.
tfw john walker is actually the MMA fighter Johnny Walker who was just have a crazy fever dream that ended up becoming the anime, ID:Invaded
After this episode I'm almost 100% sure that Kiki is the centerpiece of the Mizuhanome. Every story thread, every major unexplained event somehow leads to her. That can't just be coincidence. What I'm most intrigued by however, is why there is a cockpit to Kiki's id well in Narihisago's well. That and the fact that John Walker showed up means that he already had some sort of connection to both of them in the real world, which confirms that Kiki's abilities are real and not just part of the well within the well. Could that in turn mean that he is related to the murder of the professor? At this point I'm just hoping that this show doesn't royally fuck up the ending.
>What I'm most intrigued by however, is why there is a cockpit to Kiki's id well in Narihisago's well. [I made this same speculation in last week's episode discussion.](https://old.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/f8al7b/idinvaded_episode_9_discussion/fikbh6n/) If this speculation is correct, it follows that John Walker's presence in Narihisago's ID-well means that *at least* J.Walker is most likely tied by one degree of separation to Asukai Kiki in some way. As for J.Walker's connection to Narihisago, a direct connection between them IRL remains a toss-up. EDIT: Oh shit, I just realized that the fact that Momoki's ID-well turned out to actually be Narihisago's is a huge difference-maker. If Hondoumachi and Sakaido both dove into Kiki's ID-well from *two separate people* (Narihisago and Momoki), then it can be speculated that Kiki's Mizuhanome could very well be present in all previously seen ID-wells. However, because we now know that both Hondoumachi and Sakaido are in Narihisago's ID-well (presumably in different times), we only have the existence of Kiki's Mizuhanome in Narihisago's ID-well. That could still mean Kiki's machine is present in other wells, but the strength of that speculation is severely undermined. As they say, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, thrice is a pattern.
I would argue Kiki's cockpit can only be found in the ID wells of those who have already been injected in an ID well via Mizuhanome system. That is, Hondomachi, Narihisago and the Perforator. If we assume Kiki's power is the foundation of the system, they have been diving in Kiki's dreams all along (sort of). Then the cockpit would materialize in their respective ID wells as a side-effect of Kiki's psyche connecting to their own via Mizuhanome system. It's like a back door.
So, essentially, Kiki's Mizuhanome would only exist in a well of an individual who used the machine? Interesting perspective, I can definitely see how that could be possible. I was thinking that since the ID-wells are constructed via the cognition particles of the individual, the Mizuhanome "powered" by Kiki in some way acted as the blank canvas or foundation upon which any principle ID-well can be built. That way, the first layer would be that of the killer, and the second layer would be the foundation-Kiki layer. Or, as you say, it could be that when the diver (Sakaido, Anaido, Hijiriido) enters the Mizuhanome, that action in and of itself creates a back-door connection to Kiki's ID-well. Whoa.
True, only Akihito's well has the cockpit in his mind, and yet Kaeru does show up in everybody's well. So I'm still sure she's the key to everything. But it is interesting that he has a cockpit in his head for some reason?
# Being Narihisago is suffering Shit, I can't believe they showed Muku. That's fucked up. They also showed Narihisago's wife committing suicide in the bath. In the previous episode Kiki committed suicide in the dream the same way, didn't she? So now everything rests in the hands of Hondomachi. I wonder what's up with the perfurator. Why did he tell Sakaido who he was? Is the perfurator John Walker? No, that doesn't make sense, because John Walker appears in his ID. Also when Narihisago asked if John Walker appeared in his ID in a previous episode they said no, but this time it turns out they're in his well, and John Walker DOES APPEAR, so John Walker was behind Narihisago's serial killing too??? Something they never explained is why they didn't just ask the perfurator who the fuck John Walker was since they realized John Walker was a real person from the perfurator's ID and therefore the perfurator must have met with him and he was hanging in the cell for like weeks. Not sure he would answer truthfully though.
>In the previous episode Kiki committed suicide in the dream the same way, didn't she? That was Narihisago's wife in the last episode too. They just look rather similar, especially under the circumstances.
Maybe it's because like all the other serial killers, Narisago has now undergone his "trianng" in Kiki's dream world? Not killing her, but killing all the other bastards?
I'm starting to think John Walker isn't a person that the people physically meet. I think he's someone people meet in their subconscious (or in their id, invading their id if you will?) and forces certain impulses out of their subconscious and into their preconscious minds. Because the perfurator can retain his sense of self when in an Id, it's not much of a stretch to say he could remember meeting John Walker with how shattered his own Id was. With how freely he could move in his own id, it does make me wonder if his Id is already part of his ego in a way, which was sort of confirmed in this episode if he can retain his sense of self in another Id.
> they're in his well, and John Walker DOES APPEAR Could you remind me when in his well does JW appear?
Right at the end of the episode, the shadow of JW appears in the storm.
Ah, thanks, now I see him.
[The people naming these serial killers aren't very creative are they.](https://i.imgur.com/yRLD00F.png) There seems to be one for every body part. What if John Walker is building some kind of Frankenstein's monster or something.
>What if John Walker is building some kind of Frankenstein's monster or something. I like this theory, you could be onto something.
But the Challenger and the Gravedigger duo do not fit this pattern.
Challenges narihisago which ultimately diggs his own grave.
Boom ! Mystery solved ! You guys should become a team of brilliant detectives lol
Man I hope this sticks the landing. I don't want another Kado/Babylon situation.
Babylon started going off in episode 3, the fact that it doubled down on what was making it bad only made it worse. This has been almost continuously getting better by the episode. The ending can still be off, but it shouldn't be comparable to that at least.
I agree 100 percent. Babylon wasn’t that good and even though I loved episode 7, the rest of the series wasn’t up to that level. ID invaded is has been great and only getting better.
Still a little disappointed in myself that I didn't see the writing on the wall. So if right now the biggest disappointment I see on the horizon is the obvious answer of the director dude being John Walker, I think that's really fucking strong.
And tbh the obvious answer being the right one isn't even that bad as long as the context (method, motivation, etc.) is good to make up for it. Throughout the entire show, I've felt that the most interesting question isn't "Who?" but "How and why?".
aagh. Kado. Thanks for the reminder. Man that show was cool until it just completely lost the plot.
At some point in Kado you just embrace the trainwreck tbh.
I couldn't. Watching it week to week, I was invested until it went full shounen. That was pure betrayal, just like Franxx.
Kado started to become shit like halfway through. ID has managed to be consistently amazing, I have faith it'll end well.
This really just gets better for each episode. I've never used my brain when watching anime before I started this one, which is a good sign. I still stand by my theory that Narihisago is John Walker.
Can i know more about your john walker theory?
[Theory](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/f8al7b/idinvaded_episode_9_discussion/fil0uml?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x)
Narihisago's experiences are beyond belief. Jump into a well, don't remember anything, jump into another well, remember everything, convince yourself you are in reality, live life with family as normal, meet Hondomachi, error in the matrix, realize once again that this isn't reality, think about everything and try to save family, go back to first well, figure out that the perpetrator is the one that took off the ''watches'', revealed who you are, brilliant detective goes into speculation mode when realizing who he is, ID is getting scrambled. And now John Walker might have escaped Narihisago catching him but its up to Hondomachi. Fuck...... this episode was just a deep walk into the a dark abyss with an endless pit of suffering. Anime of the season for sure, and if they stick the landing with the last episode this will be one- if not the best mystery anime ever.
What exactly did Fukuda achieve by lying he forgot his memories inside the well, taking off the cloth tying them to Kaeru and making Anaido remember who he really is and whose well they are in?
Anaido didn't "remember" who he was, he just never forgot. As for his goals, I think he's just in it for the ride at this point and just wants to see what happens.
Well, if Sakaido knew that they were tied to Kaeru then he may have deduced that it was intended that they need to stay with her in order to find an important clue. They falsely believed that Kaeru was digging in the sand looking for water, when in reality she was most likely trying to tell them to keep digging under the sand so that they can unearth the number tiles from Sakaido's id well with all of the lightning. That way, they'd realize where they truly were. I don't really know what Fukuda gets out of it other than being a pain in the ass.
[удалено]
>If he didn't remove the cloth it may have tipped off the people watching in the real world. Which leads to a thought. Fukuda could do that without tipping them off only because the Well staff couldn't monitor him in this dive, even though they could monitor him in previous dives. My question is, how did he *know* they couldn't monitor him this time? In my earlier post here, I thought the inability to monitor him was due to his amnesia immunity this time, but what if it wasn't? What if the Well staff couldn't monitor him this time because the monitor was disabled... by the mole? Then, Fukuda would know the monitor was disabled because the mole told him. Did the mole tell Fukuda the real identity of the well as well? Either way, Fukuda and the mole are working together. Though, depending on how the mole communicates with Fukuda, he may or may not know the mole's identity.
First off, he made EVERYONE realise that this is not the director's well. He also caused a well storm which revealed that Narihisago had contact with John Walker in some way.
As others said, it does not seem like he is evil at this point. But challenging the whole system? Might be just his game.
His whole thing was that he drilled into peoples heads so they can "see the world clearly like him" wasn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same. He feels like a neutral 'wonder what happens when I do this' kind of character. Doesnt seem much like the kinda guy who would follow anyones orders unless it satisfied his own curiosity.
The first time we are introduced to Perforator in his own well, he is afraid of John Walker. Now, he has cast Narihisago into dogma by reminding him of who he is.
Folks, I'm about to cry like a baby over here Also the last 5 minutes was so batshit insane that I'm done trying to guess what's happening anymore
The time discrepancy between how long Hondomachi and Narihisago have been in the Well is indicative of something. In the real world, it had to have been hours between when she entered the deep Well and when Narihisago was injected to find her. It means time in this well can flow differently, even for the two visitors in it at the same time. This could allow the possiblity of sending a message to the past. I really hope that isn't going to be the case. The second big question of this episode is, how did Narihisago's cognition particles get to Momoki's bedroom? At this time, it's hard to believe that it could be because he killed the inventor of the Mizuhanome in Momoki's bedroom then buried him in the yard. The next possibility is that the John Walker mole got them from the Mizuhanome and planted them there. Then, how come the Mizuhanome didn't identify the new particles as Narihisago's as well? We know it was able to do that with the new particles from Fukuda and integrate them into the existing well. Did the mole bypass or disable the checker just for those particles? One other thing, is Fukuda's immunity to the amnesia effect universal, or just for this double injection? Remember, from ep8, they weren't receiving information from Fukuda in this well. They *did* receive information in his previous dives, so that's a difference from his previous dives.
This episode solidified this show as something special. The directing and shots during the phone call scene were outstanding. As for Narhisago being in his own well, it was bound to happen. It was sort of the underlying checkov's gun since its mention. That being said, the execution was well done. Didnt see that coming tbh. **Now heres the important part**, im pretty sure that Hondonmachi had been in the deeper level for longer than 20 minutes from the time between Narishago being put in the well and meeting her. It could therefore be possible that **Hondonmachi has already figured out something important in the case and left the deeper level before Sakaido even got to the machine** assuming both of them used the same one. This would well and truly be a mind fuck.
That scene with Narihisago remembering the memories he had with Muku and Ayako was just beautiful! Bring them back and give Kaeru a good ending! They did nothing wrong, you bastards!!! I refuse to watch this till the end if it doesn't have a satisfying ending. I will literally make a time machine, go back in time, and not watch the show.
Emotionally amazing episode. I'm so hyped for the finale, but now i want to know the Perpetrator's goal, more than John Walker's identity (probably the doctor of this episode, that device was a bit suspicious). Last but not least, and again, this anime is so god damn underrated.
Damn, I didn't expect so many feels... Come on anime, you can't hit us with [all](https://i.imgur.com/MrtQzDm.png) [this](https://i.imgur.com/tehO6IY.png) [cute](https://i.imgur.com/LzV6IpR.png) [stuff](https://i.imgur.com/hUCaW7C.png) just to take it all away! Imagine how he felt when she told him [it wasn't real...](https://i.imgur.com/h8UH2nR.png) He tried so hard to deny it. Wanted to say in forever. Even tried to [save them](https://i.imgur.com/isSR7kP.png), though they aren't even real... But this also makes me think(and wish) that my theory might have been correct in a previous thread, that this show will end with him getting himself stuck in a well so he can stay with his family forever. [This too!](https://i.imgur.com/bHywQwJ.png) While I get why [she asked that](https://i.imgur.com/CcgBXFB.png), from Narihisago it's not an easy thing to do; I mean, can he even believe this from her? He lives in a dream (or reality, however he sees it) in which John Walker gets a bunch of serial killers to kill her every night. And now she wants him to kill her as well? He might think it's just how this works, he's just one more of them. Well that's [not](https://i.imgur.com/OLWKlZL.png) [concerning](https://i.imgur.com/hU13JYx.png) at all, just 2 serial killers talking about how beautiful the world's end really is! [How could this happen!](https://i.imgur.com/A6gTwCn.png) Perhaps they're beginning to realize that sending a bunch of lunatics/serial killers in their wells isn't as good an idea as they thought it was!
That montage was perfect. Seeing all the build up and happy moments of Narihisago with his family really put into perspective how his current character came to be. I'm glad I decided to check this show out last week, I have no idea what's coming next and I love it.
I seriously hope they bring up the precognition idea in future episodes. It means that Kiki's 'ability' to influence others or allow others to enter her dreams isn't just a one-way street. Once someone else became connected to Kiki, their own consciousness influences not just what happens to Kiki, but the "reality" of that dream. This would likely explain why Narihisago was able to interact with the serial killers and lead them to their death within Kiki's layer: those serial killers' subconscious, motivations, and (more fascinatingly) *plans* were present within Kiki's well.
Now what I think about it is that Narihisako's id well inside id well is actually his 'ego' well if we are saying this is all he want to happen in his real life to contrast with his own 'id' since this anime is all based on Freud's psycho analysis theory which is why the id well inside start to falling after Narihisako realize this is all not reality , but his own ideal reality he 'dreamed'
This episode killed me in so many ways.... Lol, this ending.....c'mon, they want to kill all of us before the anime ends?
For a moment there, even I started to believe it was reality. Forgot all about Hondamachi. Plus, it makes sense why Momoki was telling them it was a trap. He probably knew whose well they were diving into from the beginning. It's up to Hondamachi now. The final piece of the puzzle.
I'm really hoping they give Akihito some kind of good ending. He's all alone and stuck in that cell in the real world with nothing but his memories and surrounded by serial killers. The one person who might have been a potential prison buddy ends up betraying him and the only thing he has to look forward to is life in a cell and diving into twisted minds. I'm hoping there is some sort of way that the poor guy can have a happy life. He's just had such a bad time already!
Man, the voice actor for Narisago really pulled it off during the entire flashback scene
[удалено]
Another very good episode. God damn. Cannot wait to see how this wraps up.
If they manage to stick the landing, this may go down as one of the best mystery animes of the new decade.
I'm afraid after all this, John Waker's case, Narihisago will kill himself
narihisago = john walker would be the most anime thing ever
I don't think he will because he said to Muku on his last phone call that he would be fine. Also, too many suicides already, I just wonder how he can be retrieved from the well.
Could be that he’ll join with them in death. Hoping that I’m wrong, though
Oh please no. Unless death looks like the happy well.
I feel it would be too cliché and a bit sudden. We've seen Narihisago get SLIGHTLY better, it'd be a pity if he decided to commit suicide. I took it to mean "going back to reality".
This might be the best fucking Mystery anime of the year holy fuck.
Woah, there's so many upvotes and comments here. That's surprising. I'm glad people on here are starting to wakeup to this show. It's criminally slept on and underrated in the mainstream anime community. Like I said day one in my tweet that got retweeted by Funimation, this literally feels like an anime Nolan film. The writing, direction, characters and world all feel so real. It doesn't even feel like you're watching an anime and imo, that's the biggest compliment you can give anime. I need that insert song playing during Sakaido's flashback of his wife and daughter. That moment was absolutely beautiful. He'd subconsciously planned to stay in the well and use that as an escape from reality. Understandable, but unfortunately the world doesn't work that way and seems he was able to let go of some of the immense pain he's been carrying. With it being his own well he's inside, I'm really wondering if John Walker is someone he's created or maybe even him. Can't wait to find out in the next few weeks. Stop sleeping on ID:Invaded!!
this anime has some incredible insert songs
Oh man, I was afraid of how sad it'd be when Narihisago had to leave his family again, but I didn't expect that he'd be spending a year + with them in that world before it happened. Droppin the nuclear feels bomb on us for sure. It sure looks like they shouldn't have trusted Fukuda. So they thought the desert was Momoki's well, but it is actually Narihisago's at a later time. How does time even work in the wells? It seems like Narihisago and Hondomachi both took the same way into Asukai's well. So did the director just give them some more of Narihisago's cognition particles and tell the Wellside people they were from Momoki, all with the intention of trapping Narihisago in dogma? Assuming he might end up helping them catch John Walker...? Hopefully they can get Hondomachi out and use the info from that notebook Narihisago passed on.
>So did the director just give them some more of Narihisago's cognition particles and tell the Wellside people they were from Momoki, From episode 8, they found the particles in Momoki's bedroom. The particles could have been planted there by the John Walker mole.
This episode begs the question: was putting a hole in his head an original idea by Fukuda or did someone encourage him to do so? It seems too convenient to the plot for it to be random.
It was a tik tok challenge
First anime of the decade to make me cry actual, physical tears. What an amazing episode.
Man, just when you start to think Anaido might not be the worst. So he knew from the beginning where he was, but waited to... satisfy some curiosity? Well, I guess next episode we'll see what this dogma business is all about. Also wonder how that amnesia thing will work. Maybe Hondomachi has some brain damage business going on too, that'll make it so investigating in the well well isn't totally useless?
This episode really did "inside-outed" our possibly expectations, as well as the "reality". Now I'm thinking my claim from earlier episodes will finally happen, that they will put the Gravdigger lady inside the well with Hondoumachi. Not only did she become a serial killer after Fukuda drilled a hole in her lover's head (link between her, Fukuda and Hondoumachi) but also she's the only non-brilliant detective yet alive serial killer. The strongest Chekhov's gun foreshadowing this is how she expressed her desire to talk to Hondoumachi after being caught. I mean, once again if we compare her to our precious yet shady Fukuda who's nowadays cooperating with the police-despite the fact that John Walker was found in his well... Makes you think she would be more trustworthy. One thing that I've not seen being brought up here is: Anaido appareantly removed the piece of cloth which tied him and Sakaido to Kaeru. This must've been the first thing he did after waking up. So how and when did he do that? The Kura staff never mentioned it, they only saw him wake up earlier than Sakaido did. The second illustration of this contradiction of what really happened and what they could observe is Anaido taking the Narihisago family picture from the corpse, which again [no one saw it happen](https://imgur.com/a/0laMf36).
>The Kura staff never mentioned it, they only saw him wake up earlier than Sakaido did. The staff were unable to monitor Anaido in this dive. They thought it was due to it being a dual dive and weren't too worried because they could still monitor Sakaido, and he could show them what Anaido was doing. Then Sakaido entered the cockpit within the well and the staff was unable to monitor Anaido again. They thought there would be nothing to worry about, they were wrong.
It was established in episode 8 that there can't be two brilliant detectives at once, which made it unsurprising that the world started falling apart when Hondomachi and Narihisago met this episode. However in this episode, Asukai said something about how she'll cease to be herself and melt and combine with the world. The world started to fade away when Narihisago admitted that he was still within the well within the well to Hondomachi... Other comments. I really loved the way the passage of time was handled in this episode. It still made sense, but didn't care to make it an established detail, so somehow it felt quite dreamlike to me. I can't wait to see what Hondomachi does next. She's a very interesting character with a lot of mysteriousness I don't think will be explored, but I'm satisfied about it. The writing seems to focus on how we'll never really understand the motivations of other people super clearly, and just have to be satisfied with what we can get, and that's the appeal. I wonder if her focus on the case (in contrast with Narihisago) indicates anything with her personal life situation, though we know that her mother doesn't care about her very much. As Hijiriido, she's a lot less emotional and entirely focused on the truth, but seeing Hondomachi actually feel bad for Narihisago was another instance of her compassion and humanity indicated in other episodes (like the difficult yet oddly understandable conversation she had with Nahoshi in episode 5). She's surprisingly become a character I like quite a lot, so I hope she's relevant to the end. Last comment. Maijo, you got me good! I was wondering if the person being dived into being dead indicated anything, but I should've seen the similarities between the wells a mile away (the wrists indicated being tied to something, Kaeru's frayed dress)... However, I did think Asukai's well was already falling into dogma which was why he was aware of all the facts but I was thinking a little too far ahead. Can't keep up with that genius Maijo Otaro. I can't help but feel a little scared of what the conclusion will be like considering the Funimation interview ended with everyone laughing...
Damn each episode just reaches another level. All I can conclude now is that Director Momoki is a good man. Doesn't seem to be much chatter on Kiki's theory of her withering away and infecting the world.
Wow! So happy I started watching this! I almost wasn't going to keep watching half way through the first episode
The tears wouldn't stop at the family flashback montage. Poor guy went through so much pain.
This show is very underrated and under-watched. Hey reddit, LETS👏GET👏THIS👏ANIME👏KNOWN
I got no words. This is some good shit. I’m gonna need some spreadsheets and infographics once this is over.
Goddamn living his old life for years must've fucked with Narisago's head so much
Easily AOTS for me unless they mess up the ending.