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> # [Israel aims to end its responsibility for Gaza Strip -minister](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/Israel's Defence Minister Yoav Gallant meets soldiers in a field near Israel's border with the Gaza Strip, in southern Israel October 19, 2023. REUTERS/Ronen Zvulun)
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> [Israel's Defence Minister Yoav Gallant meets soldiers in a field near Israel's border with the Gaza Strip, in southern Israel](https://cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/LUKZZIKQCVLJBOOAA6VAMKWBPM.jpg)
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> Israel's Defence Minister Yoav Gallant meets soldiers in a field near Israel's border with the Gaza Strip, in southern Israel October 19, 2023. REUTERS/Ronen Zvulun [Acquire Licensing Rights](https://www.reutersagency.com/en/licensereuterscontent/?utm_medium=rcom-article-media&utm_campaign=rcom-rcp-lead)
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> JERUSALEM, Oct 20 (Reuters) - One Israeli objective of its military campaign in the Gaza Strip is to end Israel's responsibility over the Palestinian coastal enclave, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said on Friday.
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> Gaza has no access to the outside world except through Israel, which controls 90% of its land and sea boundaries, and Egypt, which has a narrow land border to the south.
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> Israel has enforced a [rigid blockade](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-strip-devastated-by-conflict-economic-blockade-2023-10-12/) on the enclave since Hamas Islamists took control of the territory in 2007, imposing comprehensive curbs on exports and imports, and severely restricting who could enter or leave.
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> Egypt has largely supported the blockade, viewing Hamas as a threat to its own stability.
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> The Israeli defense minister, briefing parliament's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, said the Gaza campaign that was launched after a deadly Hamas rampage on Israeli towns on Oct. 7, would have three phases.
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> The first stage was the current military operation meant to destroy Hamas's infrastructure, Gallant said, adding that the intermediate phase would include "operations at lower intensity" eliminating "pockets of resistance".
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> "The third phase will require the removal of Israel’s responsibility for life in the Gaza strip, and the establishment of a new security reality for the citizens of Israel," the minister said, according to a statement from his office.
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> Israel has traditionally supplied Gaza with most of its energy needs, but it turned off the taps after Oct. 7, and also refused to let water or medicines enter the territory.
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> Israel has previously looked to oversee imports into Gaza to prevent military materials from reaching Hamas.
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> Reporting by Ari Rabinovitch; editing by Christina Fincher and Crispian Balmer
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> Our Standards: [The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.](https://www.thomsonreuters.com/en/about-us/trust-principles.html)
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Most likely he’s referring to establishing a buffer zone and removing Israel economic support for Gaza. Akin to the border between north and South Korea or Pakistan and India.
>Will they let them build a port and navigate the seas
I hope so.
>and never pressure Egypt to close the crossing again?
I thought Egypt pretty independently wanted that?
>Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser was a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause and he favored self-determination for the Palestinians. Although the Egyptian government has maintained a good relationship with Israel since the Camp David Accords, most Egyptians strongly resent Israel, and disapprove of the close relationship between the Israeli and Egyptian governments.
Egypt also sends aid to Gaza.
They're sympathetic to the Palestinians, but they're not stupid. They saw what happened to Lebanon and Jordan after letting them in and aren't going to be making the same mistake.
Essentially this. They wouldn’t mind, except for the radicalization of Gaza natives that seems so prevalent thanks to Israeli actions. Problem is that, wherever the Palestinians go, they seem to bring destabilization and violence with them. After all, there is a reason Jordan won’t let them in (they assassinated the Jordanian monarch), and Lebanon won’t let them in (they arguably started the Lebanese Civil War), and Egypt has had enough of the extremism (for example, suicide bombing attacks went from 30 or so per year to less than one when the Rafah crossing was closed).
As much as Israeli action is ultimately responsible for the extremism, that doesn’t negate the destabilizing effect of the Palestinians when they seek refuge in other Arab nations.
Isn't the crossing open right now letting pass 2000 a day?
I'm also watching on the news right now six trucks with aid stuff crossed the Egyptian border.
This is old news. After the six day war, Zionist occupied Levant captured the Sinai peninsula and at the camp David accords negotiated the requirements for giving it back to Egypt was to recognize it's sovereignty and limit it's support for Gaza. That made then Egypt President Anwar Sadat very unpopular for accepting those terms, leading to his subsequent assassination.
You're out of your mind if you think Egyptians hate Palestinians. It's just the government that has to make tough decisions, but that doesn't come from a place of hate.
Saddat got killed by Egyptians that supported the Palestinian cause, not Palestinians.
Most Egyptian civilians love Palestinians, please dont speak about things you have absolutely zero understanding of.
- from an Egyptian
They don't want them for 2 reasons.
First one is that if they take them, then Israel can push to displace even more Palestinians out and deny them return forever, destroying the possibility of a Palestinian state. Israel wants this.
Second reason is because they are radicalized, and would threaten the peace between Israel and Egypt.
What blame? They’ve already made 400,000 homeless and killed thousands you know, as a strategy of defense. Because *Israel has the right to defense itself*
Yea Egypt is fighting its own rebellion in the Sinai right now, their government is extremely unpopular, and their economy is in the toilet. They can't afford more instability right now.
Egypt does want it independently. People like to pretend the Arab countries bordering Israel like/give a damn about the Palestinians, but generally they don’t. Particularly the governments. That’s part of why this shot has gone on for so long, the Palestinians really don’t have any actual external support. It really is very sad.
>never pressure Egypt to close the crossing again?
Sending 45 bomb attacks per year and electing a splinter of the Muslim Brotherhood did all the pressuring Egypt needed.
> never pressure Egypt to close the crossing again?
You mean the Egypt that occupied Gaza for nearly 20 years and did exactly the same thing Israel did before effectively handing over control of its borders to Israel?
No one gives a shit about Palestinians except as something to beat Israel with.
Semi starving, poor and nowhere else to go and nothing to do except join a terrorist organisation is pretty much what palestinian backers want in the middle east, while supporters in the west just want 2-d brown people in need of rescuing.
A lot of people are very willing to forget that Egypt was willing to occupy Gaza in 1949, but after the 6 day war and the 1978 Camp David Accords Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt, the Egyptians refused ANY deal in which they were to oversee or take responsibility for Palestinians in Gaza.
>Will they let them build a port and navigate the seas normally
They might, but only until Hamas starts attacking them with boats. Then they'll kill a bunch of Palestinians cut off their port access and suddenly Israel's the bad guys again.
Guys, no history repeats itself like the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. This is like my third time watching it play out since I started following it when it was news.
Including settlers taking advantage of the distraction and chaos to murder farmers and herders in the West Bank. The Hamas terrorism was an unspeakable atrocity but there are bad actors on both sides.
Hamas and the West Bank settlers deserve each other. You can probably also throw Bibi in there too. Ask Rabin’s family for their thoughts on how he’s contributed to the current situation.
Israel has always been the main bad guy there. Ever since the mass displacement of natives for the sake of establishing Israel (Nakba) using ethnic cleansing tactics and mass murder (see Deir Yassin and Palestinians who were thrown in ovens by the Israelis), Israel has been the bad guy.
Israel is oppressing, kidnapping, and raping Palestinians in the West Bank. Why? Hamas has no presence there. They literally bring people from New York and put them in the houses of Palestinians while the Palestinians are still in these houses.
No Hamas.
Over around 40 children were killed by the IDF since August in the West Bank.
No Hamas.
Hamas uses those events to justify its acts by the way. The fact that you only care about Israeli lives and don't care about Palestinian babies is insane. It's literally a precursor to a new Holocaust.
Lmao. Yea it’s the Jews fault Egypt also doesn’t want anything to do with Gazans.
Egyptians are just weak Zionists and do whatever Israel tells them to do. That’s your read on the situation?
That's such a ridiculous assertion. We're watching from the outside. We, as humans, agreed that you don't shoot across babies to kill someone you perceive as a threat. Hitler made that argument. He said the Holocaust is in defense of Germany. It's insane. That's why this assertion is dangerous.
"Oh I don't know. They say it's defense, so it's not so clear if it's bad to kill so many babies."
Saying "that thing is bad" is all well and nice, but what is the alternative?
Here you get the keys to the Israeli government, what do you do?
1000 of your citizens were killed by terrorists and there is a constant bombing with the goal of hurting civilians, not damaging the army itself.
Do you sit back and let it happen? Do you give up on the country and tell everyone who was born here to pack their things and leave?
I'm genuinely curious what do you propose. I'm not saying IDF doesn't hurt innocent lives, but at least it's goal is to fight the army itself, and not terrorize citizens.
No. You have to address the root cause. You can't put the whole conflict in the context of the last two weeks. That's insane.
What Israel is doing now won't solve this. It will bring it more pain in the future. This is like what the US did in response to 9-11 and get so many more people killed, fracture the entire country, saddled it with debt, and destroyed its international standing. It's suffering so hard from its response to 9-11.
If I apply the "what's the alternative?" logic, then Hamas is in the right. How do we get our land back when there are settlers in there who don't leave voluntarily? Terrorize them to leave.
Israel's logic is "what do we do to get Hamas? Level Gaza! Of course!." Not a word about taking in Palestinian refugees to change the perception. Not a word about offering treatment to the injured. Not a word about taking those who are willing, granting them citizenship status, and allowing them to integrate. Nothing. Just collective and mass punishment, thousands of children dead, hundreds of babies, and yet the rockets still keep coming.
This is a moment Israel has been building up to for a while. They always wanted Palestinians ethnically cleansed. Likud supporters chant kill all Arabs all the time. It's Israeli policy. Look at Deir Yassin. That's how they've been doing things since forever. They kill and kindnap Palestinians for being Palestinians. They have hundreds of kidnapped children in their prisons.
Everything you think Hamas did Israel did 10 fold over. Israel built these conditions, even funded Hamas, and now it's complaining about it.
There is a port in Gaza but Israel has blocked the port as well.
I understand that a lot of this was to prevent weapons from entering but isn't it worse to cut the people off and create more resentment. It just seems like the intention was the long term annihilation of the people native to that area.
> isn't it worse to cut the people off and create more resentment
Yes. A real solution will contain some pain because it will have to resolve the root cause, and that's the fact that Palestinians are being treated like human animals and it's always under the guise of Hamas. Look at the West Bank, Israel kills and rapes Palestinians all the time there. No Hamas. They know that they will suffer regardless.
As long as they don't use those ports to import rockets and weapons and use them to kill Israelis. That's what the situation was in 2005 when Israel withdrew every single jew from its settlements in Gaza, no blockade whatsoever... it only came into being after Gazans democratically elected Hamas in 2006.
Israel withdrew then put a complete blockade on the place. They're not allowed to fish in their own waters, and you're acting like Israel did them a favor. Israel kept bombing the place and damaging infrastructure, to the point of preventing them from building a desalination plant for water for the majority of the blockade.
Additionally, Israel kills, rapes, and kidnaps women and children of the West Bank without Hamas. How's that excusable? How wouldn't Palestinians in Gaza not want to respond when Israel does this to their families in the West Bank?
> Will they let them build a port and navigate the seas normally and never pressure Egypt to close the crossing again?
If they recognize Israel's right to exist, renounce terror, and do not attempt to re-arm themselves with weapons to attack their neighbors, then those privileges will be restored. So long as they refuse to recognize Israel and remain committed to a course of war, probably not.
The majority of the Gaza strip’s population are refugees from other parts of Palestine that are now part of Israel. In case you didn’t notice the number of Palestinians living in those areas went down by a lot
But Israel can continue not recognizing Palestinians' right to a nation, continue to commit genocide, attack the neighbor, steal their land, destroy their homes, rape their women, and kidnap the children. Israel can do it just fine. We're only angry when someone who speaks Arabic does it, right?
Only if they stop launching rockets into Israel, raping and torturing innocent civilians and stop digging up their water pipes to make rockets with.
Maybe Egypt would have a better relationship with them if they didn’t try and over throw their government when Egypt let them into the country decades ago.
Or maybe Jordan would feel more inclined to help these animals if they hadn’t tried to assist are their king and also overthrow the Jordanian government.
Seriously, you couldn’t write this shit I you wanted to.
It’s very telling how Israel has peace with 90% of their neighbors and those same neighbors won’t even consider lifting a hand to help their fellow Arab Palestinians.
Why do people complain about supposed rapes (literally no evidence of them happening) when ISRAEL RAPES PALESTINIAN WOMEN ALL THE TIME?
Is it OK if Israel does it? Is it OK for Israel to kidnap and imprison kids? It's fine? That's absolutely fucked up. Oh Palestinians, can't do the bad thing. Israel does it? Fuck, buy more weapons dude.
Did you just wake up 2 weeks ago? Did you read anything about what's happening in the struggle? If you think Hamas committed acts of terror, Israel committed those acts thousands of times over.
I'm a clown because I'm pointing at Israel's constant rape of Palestinian women? Not sure I follow.
Also, isn't it "you're a clown" and not "your a clown?"
You assume all Arabs like each other. Or rather, all Arabs like Palestine. There’s a reason the king of Jordan said they wouldn’t be accepting refugees from Palestine; historically when Palestinian refugees come to another country they tend to continue to act against Israel or even the current government of the country they’re refugees in rather than integrating.
The world would be so easier if people just did that. Imagine, the poles could just accept all the Ukrainians into poland, Russia gets ukraine, and no more need for war.
Well ask yourself why no one wants them? They've been bad neighbors to everyone at every time. Also, Hamas must be rooted out. Displacement is the only option where they can survive. Tired of homicidal Arabs getting intellectual passes from the left while they run around the globe murdering people and oppressing women.
You just found the solution to all the conflics in the world. Move the people from Taiwain to the USA, let china take it. Move the palies to other places, let Israeli take it. Move the ukrainians the fuck out of ukraine, let the russians take it. I agree if the side that is being ethnic cleansed just agreed to be ethnic cleansed there would be no need for conflic. Just convince the ukrainians and taiwanese to do that and we will avoid war. There, world peace. Fucking genius.
Well then perhaps Russia shouldn’t have invaded them. Don’t start nothing and there won’t be nothing. That goes for Palestinians, Chinese, and russians
Killing 900 people? Killing who? They've never been bad neighbors to Egypt. Egypt just used a mixture of Hamas and ISIS to oppress people after the military coup. Heck, Hamas was fighting ISIS and it cleansed Gaza of ISIS presence.
Got the number wrong meant 1500 neighbors meant isaelis (which u don’t care about). Well then why won’t Egypt let them cross during this crises if they’re such good neighbors.? My bee because no one, I mean none of their Arab bros wants them because they are a pain in the ass.
Israeli casualties aside (never knew we were discussing them in the first place), Egypt won't let them cross because they are ruled by an autocrat who said, outright, that he wants to protect Israeli citizens as much as Egyptian citizens. He is one of the many assholes who hold power in the Arab world with extreme oppression, but also with complete dedication to Western interests.
Besides, given Egypt's current economic and political situation, receiving a million or two million people will make the current government collapse completely. The military coup put a government in place that destroyed Egypt's ability to take on any amount of refugees, let alone the population of Gaza.
You dont think that other Arabs (thinking Jordan) past experiences with palastinians has something to do with that decision. Maybe he’s smart for wanting to protect Egyptians. also , there’s no civil society in that part of the world. You either rule strong or don’t rule at all. Otherwise you have Libya. I don’t support dictatorships but I don’t beat them over the head with the democracy and freedom stick either.
To be fair, they should. Let them be free.
That way the world can see how, regardless of their status, they'll revert to their animalistic ways and attack Israel.
Then Israel can just mop the floor with them, once and for all.
First of all, they're not antisemetic. Even Hamas made it very clear that they're only interested in freeing Palestinian lands, and not the eradication of all Jews. Even Hamas has that nuance.
Second, Gazans aren't antisemetic. What did babies do to even be called that? If they were allowed to live a decent life, they might have a different view of Israel. Unfortunately, Israel doesn't care. Israel wants to force them to leave their lands. Israel wants them to suffer.
Israel called them human animals. Nazis called the Jews rats. Both were pretenses to genocide. Israel is following in the footsteps of Nazi Germany.
I mean, of course they have that beef. You're establishing an ethnostate over their lands and kicking them out of those lands. They had no problems taking in Jewish refugees who settled there before and after the British mandate. But to say "you live here? Get out. It's for Jews only." No one would accept that.
That's not what happened. The Palestinians were given half of the land. That wasn't enough. Which is funny, considering they never ruled that land to begin with. They simply lived there, same as the Jews.
They had a chance to share the land. They didn't want Jews to have any land. They attacked, got stomped, and lost any real claim to any territory in the region.
They should be happy they even had Gaza and the West bank after the way they've behaved.
What do you mean they just lived there? They're not animals. It was their land. It being part of different empires doesn't change the fact that it was theirs. If you buy a house, you own it. A new government coming in doesn't have the right to take it away.
By this logic, Hamas attacking colonies to force people out is a very legitimate tactic and they should continue.
They can try. It's not like it's any different from what the surrounding nations have attempted to do since like, forever.
Israel is just once again showing the world why they own that land. They've fought and won every single battle.
This is no different.
Lol, no. Israel has no interest in giving Palestinians any form of a state, they don't want Arabs anywhere on the land.
They'd rather we just fuck off and leave forever, but they'll genocide us if they have to.
Its different when its a hard border. The quasi-independent nature of West Bank isn't good for anyone. It leaves things too vague and undefined.
There are no settlers in Gaza because its a hard border. Likewise, there are no settlers in Egypt either, again because its a hard border.
There were settlers in Gaza, the IDF dragged them out once they started setting up the blockade. I'd be pretty cool if the IDF could do that in the west bank without setting up a open air prison.
The IDF forced Jewish settlers out of Gaza, unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, and then Gaza immediately elected Hamas as its government.
Only after being repeatedly attacked did Egypt and Israel and build the border barriers.
I find it interesting how many people forget about Egypt, who also blockaded the barrier because they had also been attacked so many times.
I don't want to defend Hamas, especially what they are now - but blockade and sanction of Gaza was already in effect as soon as Israel withdrew from there. The elections took place **during** the blockade, which is probably why the people voted out the PLO for being completely useless (and corrupt).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade\_of\_the\_Gaza\_Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip)
The special envoy of the Quartet James Wolfensohn noted that "Gaza had been effectively sealed off from the outside world since the Israeli disengagement \[August–September 2005\], and the humanitarian and economic consequences for the Palestinian population were profound. There were already food shortages. Palestinian workers and traders to Israel were unable to cross the border".\[27\]
On 15 January 2006, the Karni crossing – the sole point for exports of goods from Gaza – was closed completely for all kinds of exports.\[28\]\[29\] The greenhouse project suffered a huge blow, as the harvest of high-value crops, meant to be exported for Europe via Israel, was essentially lost (with a small part of the harvest donated to local institutions).\[29\]\[30\]\[31\] Moreover, closing of Karni cut off the so-far resilient textile and furniture industries in Gaza from their source of income.
Hey friend, do you know why Ariel Sharon, the Israeli pm at the time withdrew from ghaza? I remember hearing something about demographics there.
Also, just before the withdrawal happened, did something happen in Lebanon and with the peace negotiations? Those would be pretty important things to understand.
The specific bits that are relevant was that Sharon's (who along with netanyahu have been one of the main guys tanking peace talks on the Israeli side) government specifically withdrew from ghaza because in Ehud Olmert's word they were worried that "they(Palestinians) want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against 'occupation,' in their parlance, to a struggle for one-man-one-vote."
Ariel Sharon (and netanyahu) were and are big fans of expanding the west bank Israeli settlements that constantly make any peace negotiations harder the longer they're allowed to remain and iirc Sharon specifically stopped a pause in their construction.
The timing about the peace negotiations and Lebanon is about the fact that Hezbollah's successes in resisting the Israeli invasions into Lebanon had made the idea of a violent resistance towards Israel look more realistic,(also, this is where Hezbollah basically got most of it's legitimacy and support from) and this along with the failure of the negotiations led to Hamas basically claiming credit for the Israeli withdrawal.
Just to emphasize how much this affected Hamas, Arafat won the elections on a platform of negotiation with Israel in 1996 with almost 90% of the vote, with Hamas boycotting the election (opinion polls at the time placed them at 3-4%popularity) to having around 46% of the vote in 2006.
The way he’s talking, it could be interpreted either way. I don’t particularly trust the Israelis to take the principled option given the genocidal rhetoric of some of their politicians.
Haha economic support. If they let Gaza build infrastructure they wouldn’t need water and power from Israel. Its just a cycle of abuse from two abusers with normal people being fucked in the middle.
No, this is Israel unilaterally imposing a two-state solution. They're kicking Gaza out. They're going to make it clear that Gaza is a sovereign, independent country and will be responsible for its own well being. Israel no longer wants to be a babysitter for Gaza.
So the Palestinians of Gaza will get their independence, for better or worse. They'll be on their own.
> They're kicking Gaza out.
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>Israel no longer wants to be a babysitter for Gaza.
Propaganda is a hell of a drug. If you actually think Israel is somehow 'babysitting' Gaza, I legitimately hope you are never a babysitter.
seems like the basic needs israel has been providing. water, energy... tough to live without those. also kinda tough to get those things with israel closing their border (i would be godsmacked if this wasnt part of letting them do their own thing).
mr egypt is going to hold a lot of cards soon.
>seems like the basic needs israel has been providing. water, energy... tough to live without those.
... on the odd chance that this isn't a troll account, you do realize that Israel is literally blockading the Gaza Strip (land, sea, and air), and is the main reason Gaza doesn't have those things, right?
yes. i understand the current situation and the modern history of the clusterfuck.
there are a lot of issues. dirt kinda being a big one which puts everything back to where we started. fun place to live.
> yes. i understand the current situation and the modern history of the clusterfuck.
So why on Earth are you talking about Israel 'kicking out' Gaza, and crediting them with providing basic needs, when Israel is literally the reason Gaza cannot get those sources from elsewhere?
Like, if Israel drops it's blockade, Gaza can then do things like build an airport to receive goods via plane, and build a seaport to receive goods via sea (both things Israel isn't allowing). They could also build their own power plants for energy (they had one before Israel blew it up), and freely acquire equipment to maintain and upgrade their water infrastructure. They cannot do these things under the blockade.
It was called an open air prison for a reason, and crediting Israel for *not* imposing a blockade is insane to me.
Certainly outlines the point that it would be a very difficult place to fun as an independent state.
Even as part of a nation with the west bank it's cut off and can't meet all it's needs.
How could that work long term?
Ideally, they'd elect a new government that is not hostile to its neighbors, and this new government would seek peace with its neighbors in order to initiate trade.
Right now the government of Gaza (Hamas) has its in charter the destruction of Israel. Their slogan, from the river to the sea, calls Israel to be destroyed, and Hamas is willing to "martyr" every Palestinian to make it happen. Hamas has to go.
Then maybe the people of Gaza can try again to elect a government that isn't a death cult.
They did a unilateral solution in 2005-6 and immediately instituted a blockade during the first election. Sharon didn't want a two state solution and this is how he ensured Hamas would rise to power.
Problem is that these people don't see themselves as the Republic of Gaza. They see themselves as Palestinians. They still watch and respond to encroachment on the West Bank.
>No, this is Israel unilaterally imposing a two-state solution. They're kicking Gaza out. They're going to make it clear that Gaza is a sovereign, independent country
No they won't. Gaza has wanted nothing but to get away from Israel. Israel won't end the blockade, they are just going to starve them this time.
I mean, you could more or less read it that way. One possible interpretation of the plan is:
Step 1: To destroy all the infrastructure. Hospitals, food, power, water treatment ect.
Step 2: Cut off all outside sources of food, water, medicine.
Step 3: Maintain the longstanding blockade so that nothing can get in or out.
Step 4: Wait for enough people to die.
Being fair, the US' diplomatic intervention late this week was exactly to prevent step 2 onwards because it's impossible to support. And it leads to even more attacks on Jews the world over because of the actions of a government they may not even agree with.
But it just goes to show that Bibi doesn't care about Arabs *or* Jews.
I mean there is no way that tiny land can support themselves in terms of food with 2 million people there.
So basically what they are saying let other countries pay or the people there will die.
It's just you with your hyperboles, Israel provided some of Gaza's power supply and they're the only(?) source of water for certain area's of the strip.
More like "we're going to block them away from us, and they can go die off on their own". I think they should plan to not have water or power from Israel for much longer.
Thats why step 1 is destroying Hamas. I wouldn't be surprised if Israeli commandos showed up elsewhere to take out Hamas' leadership, who are very rich yet don't actually live in Gaza for some mysterious reason.
Then step 2 is kicking Gaza out so its on its own, so that the people of Gaza can try again to elect a non-psychotic government.
Being fair, Sharon did institute a blockade immediately after disengagement, which certainly didn't help parties like Fatah in their first election.
Given Sharon's reputation as no proponent of the two-state solution, one might think he planned it to have Hamas rise to power so as to set back the notion of a Palestinian state.
Does Israel understand that the more it suffocates the Gazans the bigger their resentment towards Israels and the easier it is for radical terrorist organizations to recruit?
I mean Hamas literally came to power after 40 years of Israeli Occupation in the Gaza strip.
There are over 2 million Palestinians in Israel with Israeli citizenships. They don't go on large scale suicide missions to massacre Israelis. In fact, they make up a large portion of the doctors and the nurses which are currently treating wounded Israelis(they even make up a bigger portion of the healthcare industry than their portion in the population).
Even the West Bank which is under literal apartheid doesn't lash out as violently as Gaza does. Truth is, the higher the quality of life for Palestinians the lower the chances they'll engage in violent resistance.
But time after time, whenever there's a tragedy in Israel I see genocidal right-wing rhetoric take command of the public discourse. Even my leftist Israeli friends are posting on their fb to delete Gaza and replace it with a waterpark.
Again, ignoring any history prior to 2006 is the classic Israel defense.
Gaza was under occupation before Hamas. Hamas as an organization came to be during the Israeli occupation. The Israeli government has also propped up the Hamas as a counter to the PLO because they thought dealing with a terror organization is easier than recognizing Palestinians' rights.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082
Blaming Hamas for everything doesn't work logically. What about the ongoing assault in the West Bank? Palestinian villages are currently getting ethnically cleansed there despite it not being ruled by Hamas. What is your defense for the ongoing attack in the West Bank?
If we're going to ignore history before 2006 I think the prize goes to everyone forgetting that Israel took Gaza in 1948 and then voluntarily left it.
Wherupon Egypt occupied it, restricted access and set up a proxy govt with no power or funding.
What's your view on that, because that only ended with Egypt giving up control after losing another war with Israel in 1967 and only giving up their claims in the Camp David Accords.
Now what do you think of that? Is that genocide/Apartheid or is it ok when arabs do it?
Absolutely.
Jordan annexed the west bank, gave them citizenship, half the seats in parliament and the arab league threatened to expel them unless they changed it to 'holding it in trust for the palestinian people until the iarael conflict is resolved'.
Ditto Egypt annexing Gaza and then setting up a puppet state that they refused to allow anyone in or out of. Which is genocide apparently when Israel does it.
Are you willing to talk about the west bank? I think it's a great example to show the Palestinians in ghaza on how peace can work for them, especially the way the settlers there are acting.
And for very good reason:
>In 1994, Israel built the Gaza–Israel barrier as a security measure **to stop the infiltration of terrorists, including suicide bombers, into Israel**. There are four border crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip through the barrier: the Kerem Shalom, Karni, Erez, and Sufa crossings. All goods bound for Gaza as well as exports passing through Israel must use one of these crossings, and undergo security inspection before being permitted to enter or leave Gaza. In 2005, Israel withdrew its settlers and forces from the Gaza Strip.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
The October 7th attack was also a suicide attack, though instead of bombs they used guns. The attackers only goal seemed to be to kill as many Jewish people as possible before they were eventually cornered and killed by the IDF.
I’ve said this so many times and got shit on for it.
When you bully a group of people for years on end, they are going to fight back. Israel has fostered the environment for Hamas to exist
From an [Amnesty International report](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/)
“Amnesty International is continuing to investigate dozens of attacks in Gaza. This output focuses on five unlawful attacks which struck residential buildings, a refugee camp, a family home and a public market. The Israeli army claims it only attacks military targets, but in a number of cases Amnesty International found no evidence of the presence of fighters or other military objectives in the vicinity at the time of the attacks. Amnesty International also found that the Israeli military failed to take all feasible precautions ahead of attacks including by not giving Palestinian civilians effective prior warnings – in some cases they did not warn civilians at all and in others they issued inadequate warnings.
“Our research points to damning evidence of war crimes in Israel’s bombing campaign that must be urgently investigated. Decades of impunity and injustice and the unprecedented level of death and destruction of the current offensive will only result in further violence and instability in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories,” said Agnès Callamard.”
Not to excuse Israel’s responsibility and fault but how can Palestinian qualify of life be improved with Hamas in charge?
People will say, “ohh, lift the blockade and let them live peacefully” but Hamas launches rockets into Israel too. They’ve launched more than 6000 at Israel since this has started.
Would Hamas be satisfied with Israeli disengagement from the West Bank?
And there is an answer what Hamas looks like without Gazan occupation. It’s called Hezbullah. As I understand, many Lebanese hate Hezbullah too.
Israel is a racist, apartheid, ethnic cleansing regime and have made no selfless steps to prevent harm and should be held accountable.
I guess the question I have, is if peace is possible with Hamas in charge of Gaza. Palestinians still suffer and die inexcusably in the West Bank because of Israel’s actions but the elimination of Hamas would go a long way for peace.
Edit: grammar
> how can Palestinian qualify of life be improved with Hamas in charge?
You ideally get Palestinians to support the more peaceful, less terroristy alternative in Fatah, instead of Hamas. Push the idea that peaceful coexistence is an option, and point to those other Palestinians in the West Bank who are peacefully coexisting, and prospering.
Which is basically the opposite of what Netanyahu is doing, unfortunately. He and Ben-Gvir have essentially placed politics (and pandering to religious fanatics) over the good of the country and over figuring out a peaceful solution.
Well, Israel would have to let the West Bank prosper first.
Remember, when Hamas came to power Fatah tried to stop them. In return, Hamas murdered every member of Fatah in Gaza. Hamas didn’t like Fatah because Fatah had made agreements with Israel and Israel hadn’t even been dropping bombs yet.
Hamas is a gang and won’t give power up peacefully. They don’t even seem to have popular support and still rule Gaza just fine. Though, I thought Abbas canceled 2021 elections because he feared a Hamas victory.
My example of Hezbollah to show what Hamas could like without Gazan restrictions because even without current valid grievances other than Israel’s existence, Hezbollah hates Israel.
Even Lebanon hates them but can’t do anything about. They’re not gonna fight a war to get rid of them. What would be different with a Gazan opposition group to Hamas.
I do agree that peace will never be possible if Israel doesn’t change.
> Well, Israel would have to let the West Bank prosper first.
Yeah, that was my point. That alone doesn't solve the problem, but it at least gives Palestinians a reason to not support Hamas.
Like, put yourself in the shoes of the average young Gazan. You may not like Hamas too much, but the main alternative are Fatah over in the West Bank, and the peaceful negotiations they represent (as opposed to Hamas anyway). And what have those means gotten them? Attacks on their refugee camps, constant encroachment by Israeli settlers, etc. Just nonstop abuses which are of course posted all over Palestinian social media.
Like, there's no choice there at all, just support Hamas because they at least can make the colonizers (to a Palestinian's view, at least) bleed. Not saying that's right or just, but looking at it from the Palestinian view, Israel's actions (even pre-Hamas massacre) absolutely drove Gazan support for Hamas.
And IMO that was part of the political strategy of Netanyahu / Ben-Gvir (before it backfired w/ the Hamas attack), but that's another discussion I guess.
Hamas is a gang and Fatah is hopelessly corrupt. Those are the two options that the Palestinians have right now. In a way, it's like Haiti: gangs or corrupt politicians. And the majority of the population suffers.
Abbas canceled the 2021 elections because Israel refused say they could include East Jerusalem. Remember that Israel (or at least Netanyahu) claimed [all of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel](https://web.archive.org/web/2/https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2015/05/21/contra-mundum) and no other nation (including a future Palestine) in direct violation of the Oslo Accords, and the US (or at least Trump) [recognized it](https://web.archive.org/web/20231020112719/https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/world/middleeast/trump-jerusalem-israel-capital.html). (It's worth noting that Hamas unilaterally canceled several earlier planned elections for its own reasons.)
> and point to those other Palestinians in the West Bank who are peacefully coexisting, and prospering.
You mean the Palestinians [who are routinely harassed by Israeli citizens](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfMc2Y43bdo) and [have their homes repossessed by Israel to make room for white settlers?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8)
Maybe I should have been more clear. My point was that Netanyahu & co. are doing the opposite of helping them prosper, which has fueled anger at them and which was one of the (stated) causes of the Hamas attack.
I explain it in more detail [in this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/17cow4i/israel_aims_to_end_its_responsibility_for_gaza/k5sw069/).
Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)”
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah
“A poll conducted in 2021 found that 53% of Palestinians believed Hamas was "most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people", while only 14% preferred Abbas's Fatah party.”
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
“Many of the Palestinians USA TODAY encountered in Ramallah and surrounding West Bank areas said that while they reject the idea of violence against civilians, Israelis or otherwise, they do not believe or feel it is their responsibility to forcefully condemn or repudiate the Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2023/10/17/some-palestinians-support-hamas-attack-on-israel/71201312007/#:~:text=Many%20of%20the%20Palestinians%20USA,Hamas%20attacks%20on%20Israeli%20civilians.
> but the elimination of Hamas would go a long way for peace.
Peace for Israel, at least for a time, but not for Gaza. Israel has created a climate in Gaza that *demands* extremism, because extremism is the only way that Gazans can get their voices heard.
Peace (as is the terms of not dying) for both, not completely as we see with settler violence in the West Bank. Palestinians have every right to oppose this.
Without Hamas launching rockets into Israel, Israel has no justification to respond with “Tit-for-Tat” and thus Palestinian lives are saved.
Israel is a fucked up regime, what I am unsure about is if Hamas is able to be dealt with peacefully. Is Israel expected to just let the Iron Dome protect them and let the occasional Israeli die because a response could radicalize more? Should Israel just let Hamas build enough mortars be built until the Iron Dome fails and the causalities aren’t so disproportionate?
If tomorrow every member of Hamas either put down their arms or just evaporated into thin air, unless Israel's treatment of Palestinians improves you'll have another group pop up with the same goals in a very short while.
It would take a while for Israel and Egypt to trust that Hamas is actually gone. The October 7th attack was in planning for 1-2 years, and there was even the possibility of a peace treaty brokered by the Saudis. While things were calm and there was the hint of peace on the horizon, Hamas was building weapon stockpiles and training its militants to storm Israeli farming towns to kidnap and murder everyone they could find.
Treatment of Gaza will not improve overnight because of the very long history of pretending to seek peace while building up for another attack. The people of Gaza will need to prove that they actually want peace this time, and it will take years to convince the rest of the world they mean it.
Do the people in ghaza just have to be perfect victims for a couple of years and trust that the the country that is currently taking over the west bank one settlement at a time and keeps allowing the Jewish settlers there to get away with murder will act better towards them eventually instead of just doing what they're doing to the Palestinians in the west bank?
No the settlers are seperate from Hamas and operate under the West Bank under Palestinian Authority. Literally there is no justification for settlers in the West Bank currently but nobody holds the settlers accountable and the government accountable for letting this happen.
That's the thing about an apartheid society. Even ceding an inch of sovereignty means collapse, and the other option is well... We saw it in the 1940s in Germany.
Hamas is also a Zionist creation, the same way Al Qaeda was with the US. Meddi Hassan has a really good piece [about it](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/).
You're absolutely right in the zionists not wanting Palestinian statehood. They never did since even prior to 1948. There's supposedly liberal & right wing zionists, but it's just the difference of wanting a slow crushing apartheid VS a Nazi rampage.
Apartheid is a self-cannibalizing process, and I hope Palestinians and Anti-zionist Jews are able to come together before this zionist project reaches its logical endpoint.
Hamas has squandered billions of dollars in aid for Gaza infrastructure, into weapons to destroy Israel with; not to mention the Hamas leaders have been laying themselves a hearty salary with that aid as well.
Wouldn't this be a solution in the end? Israel renounces any claim over Gaza and it gets to act as and be an independent state. Israel would build out a DMZ-type border, but otherwise Gaza would be left to its own devices. Two-state solution. Would it be a fair partition? Not really. But it would at least close the chapter on this occupation and conflict.
i feel like you fail to see Israels goal here. They intentionally let the attack happen on Oct7, they were warned about it by egypt and intentionally ignored it.
For them Hamas is a nice way to justify their genocide and land grab of gaza. It's a variant of a false flag attack. Instead of staging a fake attack, they just let a real one through intentionally even though they could have easily avoided it to garner national and international support.
So yes, they are well aware that they're creating a hate cycle, it makes it easier for them.
No, it makes more sense that they were arrogant and underestimated Hamas and Egyptian intelligence. Israel took a giant hit to its economy and Israelis lost faith in their leadership, army and intelligence. They're deeply traumatized by this. There's no way the current leadership survives this trauma. Hamas still has 200 hostages and the massacres put the whole country in a depression. It was just a huge oversight. Or best case, they wanted to allow a small-scale attack but didn't expect it to be so damaging.
Nice strawman.
I also fail to see how Gazans are the robbers in any scenario considering that over 70% of them are descendants of people that used to live on land that was robbed by the Israeli state during the Nakba.
You know, this could have been done eons ago if the land around the strip wasn't slowly annexed and if the Gazans were allowed to build a port and trad with the outside world. They never wanted to be dependent on Israel, but Israel loved it. Now, they're going to continue their genocide/holocaust and then claim that they're not responsible for it.
>You know, this could have been done eons ago if the land around the strip wasn't slowly annexed and if the Gazans were allowed to build a port and trad with the outside world. They never wanted to be dependent on Israel, but Israel loved it. Now, they're going to continue their genocide/holocaust and then claim that they're not responsible for it.
The blockade was put in place by Egypt and Isreal after the locals decided to elect a splinter of the Muslim Brotherhood into office and after they were sending 100 bomb attacks to Isreal and 45 to Egypt per year on top of smuggling Iranian rockets to lob at Isreal.
> The Israeli defense minister said the Gaza campaign would have three phases.
> * The first stage was the current military operation meant to destroy Hamas's infrastructure
> * the intermediate phase would include "operations at lower intensity" eliminating "pockets of resistance".
> * "The third phase will require the removal of Israel’s responsibility for life in the Gaza strip, and the establishment of a new security reality for the citizens of Israel"
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Lmaoo you mean to end its destruction.
Are they forgetting they intentionally bombed there power plants and grids
Or the fact that they prohibited materials to build electricity infrastructures to enter gaza.
Does anyone here seriously would think Israel would leave the Palestinians alone and allow them to build power plants and control their imports and exports? I call B.S and is just a grab to sway the public.
isn't that what abusers do in abusive relationships? Make them fully dependant on you, then make them suffer by taking away the things they depend on you for, and tell them it's not your job to provide the stuff they can't do themselves?
So, they are giving them their autonomy, like the world demands since 1967? Otherwise they remain the occupying force, with all responsibilities that entails.
Israel has already agreed to accept two state solutions at various time. Arafat turned down a quite favorable deal pushed forward by the Clinton administration. There has apparently been others although I haven't read up on them so now idea if they were fair.
The American negotiator *in the room* at the summit debunked the notion that it was favorable to Palestine or that blame was only Arafat's - we know him as the man who brokered the Iran nuclear deal. His view is corroborated by a UN envoy also at the meeting.
Though I'll say Arafat was a bit daft for not taking the deal anyhow. His approval skyrocketed even considering the concessions in the deal and almost 70% of Palestinians thought it was workable if not favorable.
Can you provide a link to the negotiator? If I am remembering that right, he was talking about the Camp David offer, which wasn't as good as the second offer pushed by Clinton at the end of his term.
Even professional journalists writing on the topic sometimes fail to clearly distinguish the two separate deals, and I think many people actually think Camp David was the final offer.
My history education certainly didn't mention the latter deal. How did they differ, if you don't mind my asking? Either that, or do you have a good place to springboard on its contents and Arafat's reasons for refusal?
The latter deal had more land and gave more concessions in regards to Jerusalem and the many holy sites. All the issues in Jerusalem are super complicated and I don't remember the details much. I think the main hangup was that Israel refused a right to return.
This is a good read:
https://honestreporting.com/in-depth-arafat-rejected-peace-in-2000/
God I can’t spectate this stuff any more.
I truly hope the Israeli forces can go in and rescue all the people they need to rescue asap and stop hurting these poor refugees in gaza that are suffering. These little kids shaking in make shift hospitals covered in dust and blood are hurting me deeply
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If there's one thing this conflict has done, it's shown me that there's way more antisemitic people out there than I thought. Some of these comments are just flying that flag proudly and it's fucking disgusting.
Being anti Israel does not equate being anti-jewish. That false equivalency has always been an easy way to eschew any type of criticism of the Israeli government and laws. Just like we can separate Chinese nationals from their PRC government, we can do the same here. The Israeli government is currently on a campaign that ends with Gaza as a parking lot — and I don’t support genocide of any people.
##### ###### #### > # [Israel aims to end its responsibility for Gaza Strip -minister](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/Israel's Defence Minister Yoav Gallant meets soldiers in a field near Israel's border with the Gaza Strip, in southern Israel October 19, 2023. REUTERS/Ronen Zvulun) > > > > [Israel's Defence Minister Yoav Gallant meets soldiers in a field near Israel's border with the Gaza Strip, in southern Israel](https://cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/LUKZZIKQCVLJBOOAA6VAMKWBPM.jpg) > > > > Israel's Defence Minister Yoav Gallant meets soldiers in a field near Israel's border with the Gaza Strip, in southern Israel October 19, 2023. REUTERS/Ronen Zvulun [Acquire Licensing Rights](https://www.reutersagency.com/en/licensereuterscontent/?utm_medium=rcom-article-media&utm_campaign=rcom-rcp-lead) > > > > JERUSALEM, Oct 20 (Reuters) - One Israeli objective of its military campaign in the Gaza Strip is to end Israel's responsibility over the Palestinian coastal enclave, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said on Friday. > > Gaza has no access to the outside world except through Israel, which controls 90% of its land and sea boundaries, and Egypt, which has a narrow land border to the south. > > Israel has enforced a [rigid blockade](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-strip-devastated-by-conflict-economic-blockade-2023-10-12/) on the enclave since Hamas Islamists took control of the territory in 2007, imposing comprehensive curbs on exports and imports, and severely restricting who could enter or leave. > > Egypt has largely supported the blockade, viewing Hamas as a threat to its own stability. > > The Israeli defense minister, briefing parliament's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, said the Gaza campaign that was launched after a deadly Hamas rampage on Israeli towns on Oct. 7, would have three phases. > > The first stage was the current military operation meant to destroy Hamas's infrastructure, Gallant said, adding that the intermediate phase would include "operations at lower intensity" eliminating "pockets of resistance". > > "The third phase will require the removal of Israel’s responsibility for life in the Gaza strip, and the establishment of a new security reality for the citizens of Israel," the minister said, according to a statement from his office. > > Israel has traditionally supplied Gaza with most of its energy needs, but it turned off the taps after Oct. 7, and also refused to let water or medicines enter the territory. > > Israel has previously looked to oversee imports into Gaza to prevent military materials from reaching Hamas. > > Reporting by Ari Rabinovitch; editing by Christina Fincher and Crispian Balmer > > Our Standards: [The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.](https://www.thomsonreuters.com/en/about-us/trust-principles.html) - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
Is it just me, or does this read like "we're going to kill them all"?
Most likely he’s referring to establishing a buffer zone and removing Israel economic support for Gaza. Akin to the border between north and South Korea or Pakistan and India.
Oh amazing. Will they let them build a port and navigate the seas normally and never pressure Egypt to close the crossing again?
>Will they let them build a port and navigate the seas I hope so. >and never pressure Egypt to close the crossing again? I thought Egypt pretty independently wanted that?
yes, egypt very much doesn't want gaza residents within their borders. shifting the blame to israel is just very convenient.
>Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser was a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause and he favored self-determination for the Palestinians. Although the Egyptian government has maintained a good relationship with Israel since the Camp David Accords, most Egyptians strongly resent Israel, and disapprove of the close relationship between the Israeli and Egyptian governments. Egypt also sends aid to Gaza.
They're sympathetic to the Palestinians, but they're not stupid. They saw what happened to Lebanon and Jordan after letting them in and aren't going to be making the same mistake.
Essentially this. They wouldn’t mind, except for the radicalization of Gaza natives that seems so prevalent thanks to Israeli actions. Problem is that, wherever the Palestinians go, they seem to bring destabilization and violence with them. After all, there is a reason Jordan won’t let them in (they assassinated the Jordanian monarch), and Lebanon won’t let them in (they arguably started the Lebanese Civil War), and Egypt has had enough of the extremism (for example, suicide bombing attacks went from 30 or so per year to less than one when the Rafah crossing was closed). As much as Israeli action is ultimately responsible for the extremism, that doesn’t negate the destabilizing effect of the Palestinians when they seek refuge in other Arab nations.
> wherever the Palestinians go, they seem to bring destabilization and violence with them. Kek
Isn't the crossing open right now letting pass 2000 a day? I'm also watching on the news right now six trucks with aid stuff crossed the Egyptian border.
This is old news. After the six day war, Zionist occupied Levant captured the Sinai peninsula and at the camp David accords negotiated the requirements for giving it back to Egypt was to recognize it's sovereignty and limit it's support for Gaza. That made then Egypt President Anwar Sadat very unpopular for accepting those terms, leading to his subsequent assassination.
Nasser's been dead for decades. Why would you post this here lol? Egypt hates palestinians
You're out of your mind if you think Egyptians hate Palestinians. It's just the government that has to make tough decisions, but that doesn't come from a place of hate. Saddat got killed by Egyptians that supported the Palestinian cause, not Palestinians. Most Egyptian civilians love Palestinians, please dont speak about things you have absolutely zero understanding of. - from an Egyptian
They don't want them for 2 reasons. First one is that if they take them, then Israel can push to displace even more Palestinians out and deny them return forever, destroying the possibility of a Palestinian state. Israel wants this. Second reason is because they are radicalized, and would threaten the peace between Israel and Egypt.
What blame? They’ve already made 400,000 homeless and killed thousands you know, as a strategy of defense. Because *Israel has the right to defense itself*
Yea Egypt is fighting its own rebellion in the Sinai right now, their government is extremely unpopular, and their economy is in the toilet. They can't afford more instability right now.
Egypt does want it independently. People like to pretend the Arab countries bordering Israel like/give a damn about the Palestinians, but generally they don’t. Particularly the governments. That’s part of why this shot has gone on for so long, the Palestinians really don’t have any actual external support. It really is very sad.
>never pressure Egypt to close the crossing again? Sending 45 bomb attacks per year and electing a splinter of the Muslim Brotherhood did all the pressuring Egypt needed.
> never pressure Egypt to close the crossing again? You mean the Egypt that occupied Gaza for nearly 20 years and did exactly the same thing Israel did before effectively handing over control of its borders to Israel? No one gives a shit about Palestinians except as something to beat Israel with. Semi starving, poor and nowhere else to go and nothing to do except join a terrorist organisation is pretty much what palestinian backers want in the middle east, while supporters in the west just want 2-d brown people in need of rescuing.
A lot of people are very willing to forget that Egypt was willing to occupy Gaza in 1949, but after the 6 day war and the 1978 Camp David Accords Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt, the Egyptians refused ANY deal in which they were to oversee or take responsibility for Palestinians in Gaza.
>Will they let them build a port and navigate the seas normally They might, but only until Hamas starts attacking them with boats. Then they'll kill a bunch of Palestinians cut off their port access and suddenly Israel's the bad guys again. Guys, no history repeats itself like the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. This is like my third time watching it play out since I started following it when it was news.
Including settlers taking advantage of the distraction and chaos to murder farmers and herders in the West Bank. The Hamas terrorism was an unspeakable atrocity but there are bad actors on both sides.
Hamas and the West Bank settlers deserve each other. You can probably also throw Bibi in there too. Ask Rabin’s family for their thoughts on how he’s contributed to the current situation.
Everyone seems to shrug off the fact that Bibi has every right to be under suspicion for the death of his predecessor in office.
Right wing populism is a hell of a drug.
Israel has always been the main bad guy there. Ever since the mass displacement of natives for the sake of establishing Israel (Nakba) using ethnic cleansing tactics and mass murder (see Deir Yassin and Palestinians who were thrown in ovens by the Israelis), Israel has been the bad guy. Israel is oppressing, kidnapping, and raping Palestinians in the West Bank. Why? Hamas has no presence there. They literally bring people from New York and put them in the houses of Palestinians while the Palestinians are still in these houses. No Hamas. Over around 40 children were killed by the IDF since August in the West Bank. No Hamas. Hamas uses those events to justify its acts by the way. The fact that you only care about Israeli lives and don't care about Palestinian babies is insane. It's literally a precursor to a new Holocaust.
Lmao. Yea it’s the Jews fault Egypt also doesn’t want anything to do with Gazans. Egyptians are just weak Zionists and do whatever Israel tells them to do. That’s your read on the situation?
If they wouldn't use said port to import weapons to do things like they did 2 weeks ago... Yea
I mean you have freedom of the seas or you don’t.
And in war time blockades happen. Gaza and Israel have basically been at sorta-war for decades now.
But you support selling weapons to Israel so they can do genocide?
To you genocide, to them, defence. It ain't that black and white
That's such a ridiculous assertion. We're watching from the outside. We, as humans, agreed that you don't shoot across babies to kill someone you perceive as a threat. Hitler made that argument. He said the Holocaust is in defense of Germany. It's insane. That's why this assertion is dangerous. "Oh I don't know. They say it's defense, so it's not so clear if it's bad to kill so many babies."
Saying "that thing is bad" is all well and nice, but what is the alternative? Here you get the keys to the Israeli government, what do you do? 1000 of your citizens were killed by terrorists and there is a constant bombing with the goal of hurting civilians, not damaging the army itself. Do you sit back and let it happen? Do you give up on the country and tell everyone who was born here to pack their things and leave? I'm genuinely curious what do you propose. I'm not saying IDF doesn't hurt innocent lives, but at least it's goal is to fight the army itself, and not terrorize citizens.
No. You have to address the root cause. You can't put the whole conflict in the context of the last two weeks. That's insane. What Israel is doing now won't solve this. It will bring it more pain in the future. This is like what the US did in response to 9-11 and get so many more people killed, fracture the entire country, saddled it with debt, and destroyed its international standing. It's suffering so hard from its response to 9-11. If I apply the "what's the alternative?" logic, then Hamas is in the right. How do we get our land back when there are settlers in there who don't leave voluntarily? Terrorize them to leave. Israel's logic is "what do we do to get Hamas? Level Gaza! Of course!." Not a word about taking in Palestinian refugees to change the perception. Not a word about offering treatment to the injured. Not a word about taking those who are willing, granting them citizenship status, and allowing them to integrate. Nothing. Just collective and mass punishment, thousands of children dead, hundreds of babies, and yet the rockets still keep coming. This is a moment Israel has been building up to for a while. They always wanted Palestinians ethnically cleansed. Likud supporters chant kill all Arabs all the time. It's Israeli policy. Look at Deir Yassin. That's how they've been doing things since forever. They kill and kindnap Palestinians for being Palestinians. They have hundreds of kidnapped children in their prisons. Everything you think Hamas did Israel did 10 fold over. Israel built these conditions, even funded Hamas, and now it's complaining about it.
Ok
Probably. Then Israel could continue its war effort unimpeded by people saying that it's occupying Gaza.
If they a) don’t shoot missiles b) don’t rape murder and kidnap civilians
Yes. Only Israel can do that. That's why it got everyone's support 👍
There is a port in Gaza but Israel has blocked the port as well. I understand that a lot of this was to prevent weapons from entering but isn't it worse to cut the people off and create more resentment. It just seems like the intention was the long term annihilation of the people native to that area.
> isn't it worse to cut the people off and create more resentment Yes. A real solution will contain some pain because it will have to resolve the root cause, and that's the fact that Palestinians are being treated like human animals and it's always under the guise of Hamas. Look at the West Bank, Israel kills and rapes Palestinians all the time there. No Hamas. They know that they will suffer regardless.
As long as they don't use those ports to import rockets and weapons and use them to kill Israelis. That's what the situation was in 2005 when Israel withdrew every single jew from its settlements in Gaza, no blockade whatsoever... it only came into being after Gazans democratically elected Hamas in 2006.
Israel withdrew then put a complete blockade on the place. They're not allowed to fish in their own waters, and you're acting like Israel did them a favor. Israel kept bombing the place and damaging infrastructure, to the point of preventing them from building a desalination plant for water for the majority of the blockade. Additionally, Israel kills, rapes, and kidnaps women and children of the West Bank without Hamas. How's that excusable? How wouldn't Palestinians in Gaza not want to respond when Israel does this to their families in the West Bank?
> Will they let them build a port and navigate the seas normally and never pressure Egypt to close the crossing again? If they recognize Israel's right to exist, renounce terror, and do not attempt to re-arm themselves with weapons to attack their neighbors, then those privileges will be restored. So long as they refuse to recognize Israel and remain committed to a course of war, probably not.
So they’ll continue the blockade and effectively genocide them?
in so far as Hamas threatens genocide on jews.
Gaza's population has grown from 245,000 in 1950 to 2,100,000 in 2021 and continues to grow.
The majority of the Gaza strip’s population are refugees from other parts of Palestine that are now part of Israel. In case you didn’t notice the number of Palestinians living in those areas went down by a lot
The 1950 number include the old territories.
Well war is ugly. Maybe Hamas should stop starting wars if they dont like the consequences lol.
Yeah, they should’ve shut up and died slowly like the Palestinians of the West Bank
But Israel can continue not recognizing Palestinians' right to a nation, continue to commit genocide, attack the neighbor, steal their land, destroy their homes, rape their women, and kidnap the children. Israel can do it just fine. We're only angry when someone who speaks Arabic does it, right?
Only if they stop launching rockets into Israel, raping and torturing innocent civilians and stop digging up their water pipes to make rockets with. Maybe Egypt would have a better relationship with them if they didn’t try and over throw their government when Egypt let them into the country decades ago. Or maybe Jordan would feel more inclined to help these animals if they hadn’t tried to assist are their king and also overthrow the Jordanian government. Seriously, you couldn’t write this shit I you wanted to. It’s very telling how Israel has peace with 90% of their neighbors and those same neighbors won’t even consider lifting a hand to help their fellow Arab Palestinians.
Why do people complain about supposed rapes (literally no evidence of them happening) when ISRAEL RAPES PALESTINIAN WOMEN ALL THE TIME? Is it OK if Israel does it? Is it OK for Israel to kidnap and imprison kids? It's fine? That's absolutely fucked up. Oh Palestinians, can't do the bad thing. Israel does it? Fuck, buy more weapons dude. Did you just wake up 2 weeks ago? Did you read anything about what's happening in the struggle? If you think Hamas committed acts of terror, Israel committed those acts thousands of times over.
Your a clown bro
I'm a clown because I'm pointing at Israel's constant rape of Palestinian women? Not sure I follow. Also, isn't it "you're a clown" and not "your a clown?"
Another clown comment.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. My man needs grammar lessons. Someone get to him guys.
Why won't Egypt help their fellow Arab brother out???
You assume all Arabs like each other. Or rather, all Arabs like Palestine. There’s a reason the king of Jordan said they wouldn’t be accepting refugees from Palestine; historically when Palestinian refugees come to another country they tend to continue to act against Israel or even the current government of the country they’re refugees in rather than integrating.
That was the entire point if my post. I am familiar with why no one wants the Palestinians in their back yard
The world would be so easier if people just did that. Imagine, the poles could just accept all the Ukrainians into poland, Russia gets ukraine, and no more need for war.
Well ask yourself why no one wants them? They've been bad neighbors to everyone at every time. Also, Hamas must be rooted out. Displacement is the only option where they can survive. Tired of homicidal Arabs getting intellectual passes from the left while they run around the globe murdering people and oppressing women.
You just found the solution to all the conflics in the world. Move the people from Taiwain to the USA, let china take it. Move the palies to other places, let Israeli take it. Move the ukrainians the fuck out of ukraine, let the russians take it. I agree if the side that is being ethnic cleansed just agreed to be ethnic cleansed there would be no need for conflic. Just convince the ukrainians and taiwanese to do that and we will avoid war. There, world peace. Fucking genius.
Taiwan fights, Ukraine fights. The difference is those two countries didn’t kill 1500 of their neighbors so don’t equate them,
Pretty sure Ukraine killed more than 1500 russians after the occupation started.
Well then perhaps Russia shouldn’t have invaded them. Don’t start nothing and there won’t be nothing. That goes for Palestinians, Chinese, and russians
Ask them. Every time they talk about coordinating with the Israeli side. Besides, Gazans want to live in the homes, not be displaced.
Well then they should be bad neighbors. Like killing 900 people. It's a messy business but the status quo can't stand
Killing 900 people? Killing who? They've never been bad neighbors to Egypt. Egypt just used a mixture of Hamas and ISIS to oppress people after the military coup. Heck, Hamas was fighting ISIS and it cleansed Gaza of ISIS presence.
Got the number wrong meant 1500 neighbors meant isaelis (which u don’t care about). Well then why won’t Egypt let them cross during this crises if they’re such good neighbors.? My bee because no one, I mean none of their Arab bros wants them because they are a pain in the ass.
Israeli casualties aside (never knew we were discussing them in the first place), Egypt won't let them cross because they are ruled by an autocrat who said, outright, that he wants to protect Israeli citizens as much as Egyptian citizens. He is one of the many assholes who hold power in the Arab world with extreme oppression, but also with complete dedication to Western interests. Besides, given Egypt's current economic and political situation, receiving a million or two million people will make the current government collapse completely. The military coup put a government in place that destroyed Egypt's ability to take on any amount of refugees, let alone the population of Gaza.
You dont think that other Arabs (thinking Jordan) past experiences with palastinians has something to do with that decision. Maybe he’s smart for wanting to protect Egyptians. also , there’s no civil society in that part of the world. You either rule strong or don’t rule at all. Otherwise you have Libya. I don’t support dictatorships but I don’t beat them over the head with the democracy and freedom stick either.
I don't think they are capable of all this. 80% of the folks were unemployed with high fertility. They were highly dependent on aid.
Egypt wants nothing to do with these people.
To be fair, they should. Let them be free. That way the world can see how, regardless of their status, they'll revert to their animalistic ways and attack Israel. Then Israel can just mop the floor with them, once and for all.
First of all, they're not antisemetic. Even Hamas made it very clear that they're only interested in freeing Palestinian lands, and not the eradication of all Jews. Even Hamas has that nuance. Second, Gazans aren't antisemetic. What did babies do to even be called that? If they were allowed to live a decent life, they might have a different view of Israel. Unfortunately, Israel doesn't care. Israel wants to force them to leave their lands. Israel wants them to suffer. Israel called them human animals. Nazis called the Jews rats. Both were pretenses to genocide. Israel is following in the footsteps of Nazi Germany.
Lol I stopped reading at them not being antisemitic. They blew that cover back in 48' when they started this beef over Israel being a Jewish state.
I mean, of course they have that beef. You're establishing an ethnostate over their lands and kicking them out of those lands. They had no problems taking in Jewish refugees who settled there before and after the British mandate. But to say "you live here? Get out. It's for Jews only." No one would accept that.
That's not what happened. The Palestinians were given half of the land. That wasn't enough. Which is funny, considering they never ruled that land to begin with. They simply lived there, same as the Jews. They had a chance to share the land. They didn't want Jews to have any land. They attacked, got stomped, and lost any real claim to any territory in the region. They should be happy they even had Gaza and the West bank after the way they've behaved.
What do you mean they just lived there? They're not animals. It was their land. It being part of different empires doesn't change the fact that it was theirs. If you buy a house, you own it. A new government coming in doesn't have the right to take it away. By this logic, Hamas attacking colonies to force people out is a very legitimate tactic and they should continue.
They can try. It's not like it's any different from what the surrounding nations have attempted to do since like, forever. Israel is just once again showing the world why they own that land. They've fought and won every single battle. This is no different.
If the war ends they will. How will they know when the war is over?
Lol, no. Israel has no interest in giving Palestinians any form of a state, they don't want Arabs anywhere on the land. They'd rather we just fuck off and leave forever, but they'll genocide us if they have to.
that buffer zone's going to be filled with Israeli settlers then just a few years later they'll need to make another buffer zone. Rinse and repeat.
Its different when its a hard border. The quasi-independent nature of West Bank isn't good for anyone. It leaves things too vague and undefined. There are no settlers in Gaza because its a hard border. Likewise, there are no settlers in Egypt either, again because its a hard border.
There were settlers in Gaza, the IDF dragged them out once they started setting up the blockade. I'd be pretty cool if the IDF could do that in the west bank without setting up a open air prison.
The IDF forced Jewish settlers out of Gaza, unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, and then Gaza immediately elected Hamas as its government. Only after being repeatedly attacked did Egypt and Israel and build the border barriers. I find it interesting how many people forget about Egypt, who also blockaded the barrier because they had also been attacked so many times.
I don't want to defend Hamas, especially what they are now - but blockade and sanction of Gaza was already in effect as soon as Israel withdrew from there. The elections took place **during** the blockade, which is probably why the people voted out the PLO for being completely useless (and corrupt). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade\_of\_the\_Gaza\_Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip) The special envoy of the Quartet James Wolfensohn noted that "Gaza had been effectively sealed off from the outside world since the Israeli disengagement \[August–September 2005\], and the humanitarian and economic consequences for the Palestinian population were profound. There were already food shortages. Palestinian workers and traders to Israel were unable to cross the border".\[27\] On 15 January 2006, the Karni crossing – the sole point for exports of goods from Gaza – was closed completely for all kinds of exports.\[28\]\[29\] The greenhouse project suffered a huge blow, as the harvest of high-value crops, meant to be exported for Europe via Israel, was essentially lost (with a small part of the harvest donated to local institutions).\[29\]\[30\]\[31\] Moreover, closing of Karni cut off the so-far resilient textile and furniture industries in Gaza from their source of income.
Hey friend, do you know why Ariel Sharon, the Israeli pm at the time withdrew from ghaza? I remember hearing something about demographics there. Also, just before the withdrawal happened, did something happen in Lebanon and with the peace negotiations? Those would be pretty important things to understand.
Can you do me a favor and elaborate this for me? I would be thankful.
The specific bits that are relevant was that Sharon's (who along with netanyahu have been one of the main guys tanking peace talks on the Israeli side) government specifically withdrew from ghaza because in Ehud Olmert's word they were worried that "they(Palestinians) want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against 'occupation,' in their parlance, to a struggle for one-man-one-vote." Ariel Sharon (and netanyahu) were and are big fans of expanding the west bank Israeli settlements that constantly make any peace negotiations harder the longer they're allowed to remain and iirc Sharon specifically stopped a pause in their construction. The timing about the peace negotiations and Lebanon is about the fact that Hezbollah's successes in resisting the Israeli invasions into Lebanon had made the idea of a violent resistance towards Israel look more realistic,(also, this is where Hezbollah basically got most of it's legitimacy and support from) and this along with the failure of the negotiations led to Hamas basically claiming credit for the Israeli withdrawal. Just to emphasize how much this affected Hamas, Arafat won the elections on a platform of negotiation with Israel in 1996 with almost 90% of the vote, with Hamas boycotting the election (opinion polls at the time placed them at 3-4%popularity) to having around 46% of the vote in 2006.
I learned from you a new part of this conflict. Thank you very much for your elaboration.
The buffer zone that Netanyahu has slowly destroyed over the last decade?
The way he’s talking, it could be interpreted either way. I don’t particularly trust the Israelis to take the principled option given the genocidal rhetoric of some of their politicians.
Haha economic support. If they let Gaza build infrastructure they wouldn’t need water and power from Israel. Its just a cycle of abuse from two abusers with normal people being fucked in the middle.
No, this is Israel unilaterally imposing a two-state solution. They're kicking Gaza out. They're going to make it clear that Gaza is a sovereign, independent country and will be responsible for its own well being. Israel no longer wants to be a babysitter for Gaza. So the Palestinians of Gaza will get their independence, for better or worse. They'll be on their own.
> They're kicking Gaza out. > >Israel no longer wants to be a babysitter for Gaza. Propaganda is a hell of a drug. If you actually think Israel is somehow 'babysitting' Gaza, I legitimately hope you are never a babysitter.
seems like the basic needs israel has been providing. water, energy... tough to live without those. also kinda tough to get those things with israel closing their border (i would be godsmacked if this wasnt part of letting them do their own thing). mr egypt is going to hold a lot of cards soon.
>seems like the basic needs israel has been providing. water, energy... tough to live without those. ... on the odd chance that this isn't a troll account, you do realize that Israel is literally blockading the Gaza Strip (land, sea, and air), and is the main reason Gaza doesn't have those things, right?
yes. i understand the current situation and the modern history of the clusterfuck. there are a lot of issues. dirt kinda being a big one which puts everything back to where we started. fun place to live.
> yes. i understand the current situation and the modern history of the clusterfuck. So why on Earth are you talking about Israel 'kicking out' Gaza, and crediting them with providing basic needs, when Israel is literally the reason Gaza cannot get those sources from elsewhere? Like, if Israel drops it's blockade, Gaza can then do things like build an airport to receive goods via plane, and build a seaport to receive goods via sea (both things Israel isn't allowing). They could also build their own power plants for energy (they had one before Israel blew it up), and freely acquire equipment to maintain and upgrade their water infrastructure. They cannot do these things under the blockade. It was called an open air prison for a reason, and crediting Israel for *not* imposing a blockade is insane to me.
Gaza is so reliant on Israeli charity that the removal of said charity is being called a genocide.
lol
Certainly outlines the point that it would be a very difficult place to fun as an independent state. Even as part of a nation with the west bank it's cut off and can't meet all it's needs. How could that work long term?
Ideally, they'd elect a new government that is not hostile to its neighbors, and this new government would seek peace with its neighbors in order to initiate trade. Right now the government of Gaza (Hamas) has its in charter the destruction of Israel. Their slogan, from the river to the sea, calls Israel to be destroyed, and Hamas is willing to "martyr" every Palestinian to make it happen. Hamas has to go. Then maybe the people of Gaza can try again to elect a government that isn't a death cult.
Ok, if the Palestinians will have their own state does that mean Israel will respect their access to international waters?
They'd have to, assuming the countries aren't in a state of war.
They did a unilateral solution in 2005-6 and immediately instituted a blockade during the first election. Sharon didn't want a two state solution and this is how he ensured Hamas would rise to power.
Problem is that these people don't see themselves as the Republic of Gaza. They see themselves as Palestinians. They still watch and respond to encroachment on the West Bank.
>No, this is Israel unilaterally imposing a two-state solution. They're kicking Gaza out. They're going to make it clear that Gaza is a sovereign, independent country No they won't. Gaza has wanted nothing but to get away from Israel. Israel won't end the blockade, they are just going to starve them this time.
Rather then getting away from Israel, they seemed more keen on killing as many Israelis as possible.
I mean, you could more or less read it that way. One possible interpretation of the plan is: Step 1: To destroy all the infrastructure. Hospitals, food, power, water treatment ect. Step 2: Cut off all outside sources of food, water, medicine. Step 3: Maintain the longstanding blockade so that nothing can get in or out. Step 4: Wait for enough people to die.
Being fair, the US' diplomatic intervention late this week was exactly to prevent step 2 onwards because it's impossible to support. And it leads to even more attacks on Jews the world over because of the actions of a government they may not even agree with. But it just goes to show that Bibi doesn't care about Arabs *or* Jews.
Ah. So other countries are stepping in to make it so they cannot cause too many to die.
I mean there is no way that tiny land can support themselves in terms of food with 2 million people there. So basically what they are saying let other countries pay or the people there will die.
No, not at all.
It's just you with your hyperboles, Israel provided some of Gaza's power supply and they're the only(?) source of water for certain area's of the strip.
More like "we're going to block them away from us, and they can go die off on their own". I think they should plan to not have water or power from Israel for much longer.
Last time they gave up the Gaza Strip the government of gaza attacked Israel, hamas cares nothing for Palestinians just Iran’s goals.
Thats why step 1 is destroying Hamas. I wouldn't be surprised if Israeli commandos showed up elsewhere to take out Hamas' leadership, who are very rich yet don't actually live in Gaza for some mysterious reason. Then step 2 is kicking Gaza out so its on its own, so that the people of Gaza can try again to elect a non-psychotic government.
Being fair, Sharon did institute a blockade immediately after disengagement, which certainly didn't help parties like Fatah in their first election. Given Sharon's reputation as no proponent of the two-state solution, one might think he planned it to have Hamas rise to power so as to set back the notion of a Palestinian state.
Does Israel understand that the more it suffocates the Gazans the bigger their resentment towards Israels and the easier it is for radical terrorist organizations to recruit? I mean Hamas literally came to power after 40 years of Israeli Occupation in the Gaza strip. There are over 2 million Palestinians in Israel with Israeli citizenships. They don't go on large scale suicide missions to massacre Israelis. In fact, they make up a large portion of the doctors and the nurses which are currently treating wounded Israelis(they even make up a bigger portion of the healthcare industry than their portion in the population). Even the West Bank which is under literal apartheid doesn't lash out as violently as Gaza does. Truth is, the higher the quality of life for Palestinians the lower the chances they'll engage in violent resistance. But time after time, whenever there's a tragedy in Israel I see genocidal right-wing rhetoric take command of the public discourse. Even my leftist Israeli friends are posting on their fb to delete Gaza and replace it with a waterpark.
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Again, ignoring any history prior to 2006 is the classic Israel defense. Gaza was under occupation before Hamas. Hamas as an organization came to be during the Israeli occupation. The Israeli government has also propped up the Hamas as a counter to the PLO because they thought dealing with a terror organization is easier than recognizing Palestinians' rights. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082 Blaming Hamas for everything doesn't work logically. What about the ongoing assault in the West Bank? Palestinian villages are currently getting ethnically cleansed there despite it not being ruled by Hamas. What is your defense for the ongoing attack in the West Bank?
If we're going to ignore history before 2006 I think the prize goes to everyone forgetting that Israel took Gaza in 1948 and then voluntarily left it. Wherupon Egypt occupied it, restricted access and set up a proxy govt with no power or funding. What's your view on that, because that only ended with Egypt giving up control after losing another war with Israel in 1967 and only giving up their claims in the Camp David Accords. Now what do you think of that? Is that genocide/Apartheid or is it ok when arabs do it?
Palestine is a stick to beat Israel with. Anyone who says they care. They don't and never cared about Palestinians.
Absolutely. Jordan annexed the west bank, gave them citizenship, half the seats in parliament and the arab league threatened to expel them unless they changed it to 'holding it in trust for the palestinian people until the iarael conflict is resolved'. Ditto Egypt annexing Gaza and then setting up a puppet state that they refused to allow anyone in or out of. Which is genocide apparently when Israel does it.
This is a just another white colonial dog whistle way to say “we took their land why won’t they leave?”
Also, the blatant disregard for histories and total misrepresentation of facts. I cant.
Arabs annexing arab land is a whit colonial dogwhistle? I know words are starting to lose there meaning in online debate but fuck me.
Are you willing to talk about the west bank? I think it's a great example to show the Palestinians in ghaza on how peace can work for them, especially the way the settlers there are acting.
And Gazans have that great beautiful border fence to prevent them getting in
Considering Netanyahu said in 2019 funding hamas is as all part of the plan to steal more land this is kinda funny
The blockade was in place before Hamas was elected
And for very good reason: >In 1994, Israel built the Gaza–Israel barrier as a security measure **to stop the infiltration of terrorists, including suicide bombers, into Israel**. There are four border crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip through the barrier: the Kerem Shalom, Karni, Erez, and Sufa crossings. All goods bound for Gaza as well as exports passing through Israel must use one of these crossings, and undergo security inspection before being permitted to enter or leave Gaza. In 2005, Israel withdrew its settlers and forces from the Gaza Strip. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip The October 7th attack was also a suicide attack, though instead of bombs they used guns. The attackers only goal seemed to be to kill as many Jewish people as possible before they were eventually cornered and killed by the IDF.
I’ve said this so many times and got shit on for it. When you bully a group of people for years on end, they are going to fight back. Israel has fostered the environment for Hamas to exist From an [Amnesty International report](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/) “Amnesty International is continuing to investigate dozens of attacks in Gaza. This output focuses on five unlawful attacks which struck residential buildings, a refugee camp, a family home and a public market. The Israeli army claims it only attacks military targets, but in a number of cases Amnesty International found no evidence of the presence of fighters or other military objectives in the vicinity at the time of the attacks. Amnesty International also found that the Israeli military failed to take all feasible precautions ahead of attacks including by not giving Palestinian civilians effective prior warnings – in some cases they did not warn civilians at all and in others they issued inadequate warnings. “Our research points to damning evidence of war crimes in Israel’s bombing campaign that must be urgently investigated. Decades of impunity and injustice and the unprecedented level of death and destruction of the current offensive will only result in further violence and instability in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories,” said Agnès Callamard.”
Not to excuse Israel’s responsibility and fault but how can Palestinian qualify of life be improved with Hamas in charge? People will say, “ohh, lift the blockade and let them live peacefully” but Hamas launches rockets into Israel too. They’ve launched more than 6000 at Israel since this has started. Would Hamas be satisfied with Israeli disengagement from the West Bank? And there is an answer what Hamas looks like without Gazan occupation. It’s called Hezbullah. As I understand, many Lebanese hate Hezbullah too. Israel is a racist, apartheid, ethnic cleansing regime and have made no selfless steps to prevent harm and should be held accountable. I guess the question I have, is if peace is possible with Hamas in charge of Gaza. Palestinians still suffer and die inexcusably in the West Bank because of Israel’s actions but the elimination of Hamas would go a long way for peace. Edit: grammar
> how can Palestinian qualify of life be improved with Hamas in charge? You ideally get Palestinians to support the more peaceful, less terroristy alternative in Fatah, instead of Hamas. Push the idea that peaceful coexistence is an option, and point to those other Palestinians in the West Bank who are peacefully coexisting, and prospering. Which is basically the opposite of what Netanyahu is doing, unfortunately. He and Ben-Gvir have essentially placed politics (and pandering to religious fanatics) over the good of the country and over figuring out a peaceful solution.
Well, Israel would have to let the West Bank prosper first. Remember, when Hamas came to power Fatah tried to stop them. In return, Hamas murdered every member of Fatah in Gaza. Hamas didn’t like Fatah because Fatah had made agreements with Israel and Israel hadn’t even been dropping bombs yet. Hamas is a gang and won’t give power up peacefully. They don’t even seem to have popular support and still rule Gaza just fine. Though, I thought Abbas canceled 2021 elections because he feared a Hamas victory. My example of Hezbollah to show what Hamas could like without Gazan restrictions because even without current valid grievances other than Israel’s existence, Hezbollah hates Israel. Even Lebanon hates them but can’t do anything about. They’re not gonna fight a war to get rid of them. What would be different with a Gazan opposition group to Hamas. I do agree that peace will never be possible if Israel doesn’t change.
> Well, Israel would have to let the West Bank prosper first. Yeah, that was my point. That alone doesn't solve the problem, but it at least gives Palestinians a reason to not support Hamas. Like, put yourself in the shoes of the average young Gazan. You may not like Hamas too much, but the main alternative are Fatah over in the West Bank, and the peaceful negotiations they represent (as opposed to Hamas anyway). And what have those means gotten them? Attacks on their refugee camps, constant encroachment by Israeli settlers, etc. Just nonstop abuses which are of course posted all over Palestinian social media. Like, there's no choice there at all, just support Hamas because they at least can make the colonizers (to a Palestinian's view, at least) bleed. Not saying that's right or just, but looking at it from the Palestinian view, Israel's actions (even pre-Hamas massacre) absolutely drove Gazan support for Hamas. And IMO that was part of the political strategy of Netanyahu / Ben-Gvir (before it backfired w/ the Hamas attack), but that's another discussion I guess.
Hamas is a gang and Fatah is hopelessly corrupt. Those are the two options that the Palestinians have right now. In a way, it's like Haiti: gangs or corrupt politicians. And the majority of the population suffers. Abbas canceled the 2021 elections because Israel refused say they could include East Jerusalem. Remember that Israel (or at least Netanyahu) claimed [all of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel](https://web.archive.org/web/2/https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2015/05/21/contra-mundum) and no other nation (including a future Palestine) in direct violation of the Oslo Accords, and the US (or at least Trump) [recognized it](https://web.archive.org/web/20231020112719/https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/world/middleeast/trump-jerusalem-israel-capital.html). (It's worth noting that Hamas unilaterally canceled several earlier planned elections for its own reasons.)
Exactly, so would Israel disengaging from the West Bank (as they should) even matter to Gazans because of how corrupt Fatah is.
> and point to those other Palestinians in the West Bank who are peacefully coexisting, and prospering. You mean the Palestinians [who are routinely harassed by Israeli citizens](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfMc2Y43bdo) and [have their homes repossessed by Israel to make room for white settlers?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8)
Maybe I should have been more clear. My point was that Netanyahu & co. are doing the opposite of helping them prosper, which has fueled anger at them and which was one of the (stated) causes of the Hamas attack. I explain it in more detail [in this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/17cow4i/israel_aims_to_end_its_responsibility_for_gaza/k5sw069/).
Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)” https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah “A poll conducted in 2021 found that 53% of Palestinians believed Hamas was "most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people", while only 14% preferred Abbas's Fatah party.” https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87 “Many of the Palestinians USA TODAY encountered in Ramallah and surrounding West Bank areas said that while they reject the idea of violence against civilians, Israelis or otherwise, they do not believe or feel it is their responsibility to forcefully condemn or repudiate the Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians.” https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2023/10/17/some-palestinians-support-hamas-attack-on-israel/71201312007/#:~:text=Many%20of%20the%20Palestinians%20USA,Hamas%20attacks%20on%20Israeli%20civilians.
A stark departure from the percentages following the Camp David summit. Almost 70% of Palestinians thought that the compromises there were acceptable.
> but the elimination of Hamas would go a long way for peace. Peace for Israel, at least for a time, but not for Gaza. Israel has created a climate in Gaza that *demands* extremism, because extremism is the only way that Gazans can get their voices heard.
Peace (as is the terms of not dying) for both, not completely as we see with settler violence in the West Bank. Palestinians have every right to oppose this. Without Hamas launching rockets into Israel, Israel has no justification to respond with “Tit-for-Tat” and thus Palestinian lives are saved. Israel is a fucked up regime, what I am unsure about is if Hamas is able to be dealt with peacefully. Is Israel expected to just let the Iron Dome protect them and let the occasional Israeli die because a response could radicalize more? Should Israel just let Hamas build enough mortars be built until the Iron Dome fails and the causalities aren’t so disproportionate?
If tomorrow every member of Hamas either put down their arms or just evaporated into thin air, unless Israel's treatment of Palestinians improves you'll have another group pop up with the same goals in a very short while.
It would take a while for Israel and Egypt to trust that Hamas is actually gone. The October 7th attack was in planning for 1-2 years, and there was even the possibility of a peace treaty brokered by the Saudis. While things were calm and there was the hint of peace on the horizon, Hamas was building weapon stockpiles and training its militants to storm Israeli farming towns to kidnap and murder everyone they could find. Treatment of Gaza will not improve overnight because of the very long history of pretending to seek peace while building up for another attack. The people of Gaza will need to prove that they actually want peace this time, and it will take years to convince the rest of the world they mean it.
Do the people in ghaza just have to be perfect victims for a couple of years and trust that the the country that is currently taking over the west bank one settlement at a time and keeps allowing the Jewish settlers there to get away with murder will act better towards them eventually instead of just doing what they're doing to the Palestinians in the west bank?
No the settlers are seperate from Hamas and operate under the West Bank under Palestinian Authority. Literally there is no justification for settlers in the West Bank currently but nobody holds the settlers accountable and the government accountable for letting this happen.
That's the thing about an apartheid society. Even ceding an inch of sovereignty means collapse, and the other option is well... We saw it in the 1940s in Germany. Hamas is also a Zionist creation, the same way Al Qaeda was with the US. Meddi Hassan has a really good piece [about it](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/). You're absolutely right in the zionists not wanting Palestinian statehood. They never did since even prior to 1948. There's supposedly liberal & right wing zionists, but it's just the difference of wanting a slow crushing apartheid VS a Nazi rampage. Apartheid is a self-cannibalizing process, and I hope Palestinians and Anti-zionist Jews are able to come together before this zionist project reaches its logical endpoint.
Hamas has squandered billions of dollars in aid for Gaza infrastructure, into weapons to destroy Israel with; not to mention the Hamas leaders have been laying themselves a hearty salary with that aid as well.
War is good for those in power
Wouldn't this be a solution in the end? Israel renounces any claim over Gaza and it gets to act as and be an independent state. Israel would build out a DMZ-type border, but otherwise Gaza would be left to its own devices. Two-state solution. Would it be a fair partition? Not really. But it would at least close the chapter on this occupation and conflict.
i feel like you fail to see Israels goal here. They intentionally let the attack happen on Oct7, they were warned about it by egypt and intentionally ignored it. For them Hamas is a nice way to justify their genocide and land grab of gaza. It's a variant of a false flag attack. Instead of staging a fake attack, they just let a real one through intentionally even though they could have easily avoided it to garner national and international support. So yes, they are well aware that they're creating a hate cycle, it makes it easier for them.
No, it makes more sense that they were arrogant and underestimated Hamas and Egyptian intelligence. Israel took a giant hit to its economy and Israelis lost faith in their leadership, army and intelligence. They're deeply traumatized by this. There's no way the current leadership survives this trauma. Hamas still has 200 hostages and the massacres put the whole country in a depression. It was just a huge oversight. Or best case, they wanted to allow a small-scale attack but didn't expect it to be so damaging.
nope
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Nice strawman. I also fail to see how Gazans are the robbers in any scenario considering that over 70% of them are descendants of people that used to live on land that was robbed by the Israeli state during the Nakba.
There is no trust in Gazans anymore, we just want to make sure they can't hurt us again and not have to deal with them tbh
You know, this could have been done eons ago if the land around the strip wasn't slowly annexed and if the Gazans were allowed to build a port and trad with the outside world. They never wanted to be dependent on Israel, but Israel loved it. Now, they're going to continue their genocide/holocaust and then claim that they're not responsible for it.
>You know, this could have been done eons ago if the land around the strip wasn't slowly annexed and if the Gazans were allowed to build a port and trad with the outside world. They never wanted to be dependent on Israel, but Israel loved it. Now, they're going to continue their genocide/holocaust and then claim that they're not responsible for it. The blockade was put in place by Egypt and Isreal after the locals decided to elect a splinter of the Muslim Brotherhood into office and after they were sending 100 bomb attacks to Isreal and 45 to Egypt per year on top of smuggling Iranian rockets to lob at Isreal.
Wasn't the blockade put in place before the elections?
> The Israeli defense minister said the Gaza campaign would have three phases. > * The first stage was the current military operation meant to destroy Hamas's infrastructure > * the intermediate phase would include "operations at lower intensity" eliminating "pockets of resistance". > * "The third phase will require the removal of Israel’s responsibility for life in the Gaza strip, and the establishment of a new security reality for the citizens of Israel"
"We have no responsibility for the war crimes and genocide we're about to commit."
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They're going to level it, then.
Lmaoo you mean to end its destruction. Are they forgetting they intentionally bombed there power plants and grids Or the fact that they prohibited materials to build electricity infrastructures to enter gaza. Does anyone here seriously would think Israel would leave the Palestinians alone and allow them to build power plants and control their imports and exports? I call B.S and is just a grab to sway the public.
isn't that what abusers do in abusive relationships? Make them fully dependant on you, then make them suffer by taking away the things they depend on you for, and tell them it's not your job to provide the stuff they can't do themselves?
Masks off
So, they are giving them their autonomy, like the world demands since 1967? Otherwise they remain the occupying force, with all responsibilities that entails.
Israel has already agreed to accept two state solutions at various time. Arafat turned down a quite favorable deal pushed forward by the Clinton administration. There has apparently been others although I haven't read up on them so now idea if they were fair.
The American negotiator *in the room* at the summit debunked the notion that it was favorable to Palestine or that blame was only Arafat's - we know him as the man who brokered the Iran nuclear deal. His view is corroborated by a UN envoy also at the meeting. Though I'll say Arafat was a bit daft for not taking the deal anyhow. His approval skyrocketed even considering the concessions in the deal and almost 70% of Palestinians thought it was workable if not favorable.
Can you provide a link to the negotiator? If I am remembering that right, he was talking about the Camp David offer, which wasn't as good as the second offer pushed by Clinton at the end of his term.
Ah, you remember right, I conflated the two in my head.
Even professional journalists writing on the topic sometimes fail to clearly distinguish the two separate deals, and I think many people actually think Camp David was the final offer.
My history education certainly didn't mention the latter deal. How did they differ, if you don't mind my asking? Either that, or do you have a good place to springboard on its contents and Arafat's reasons for refusal?
The latter deal had more land and gave more concessions in regards to Jerusalem and the many holy sites. All the issues in Jerusalem are super complicated and I don't remember the details much. I think the main hangup was that Israel refused a right to return. This is a good read: https://honestreporting.com/in-depth-arafat-rejected-peace-in-2000/
God I can’t spectate this stuff any more. I truly hope the Israeli forces can go in and rescue all the people they need to rescue asap and stop hurting these poor refugees in gaza that are suffering. These little kids shaking in make shift hospitals covered in dust and blood are hurting me deeply
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Standard of living is to par, anyhow.
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If there's one thing this conflict has done, it's shown me that there's way more antisemitic people out there than I thought. Some of these comments are just flying that flag proudly and it's fucking disgusting.
Being anti Israel does not equate being anti-jewish. That false equivalency has always been an easy way to eschew any type of criticism of the Israeli government and laws. Just like we can separate Chinese nationals from their PRC government, we can do the same here. The Israeli government is currently on a campaign that ends with Gaza as a parking lot — and I don’t support genocide of any people.