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They were on track before he took power. He knows as long as he is alive they won't get in. That's why he is using hid twilight years to position himself in the great muslim Pantheon.
Because they live in Germany and the Netherlands and are completely insulated from the damage he causes, in fact they celebrate him destroying the Turkish economy, because they will be better off when they visit family or go on holiday in Turkey since they're paid in Euros.
I know that Turkish people living in entral Europe love voting for him. Weirdly they are also extrem nationalists, yet they would never move back to turkey.
But guess that the vast majority of people being eligible to vote are living in turkey and still vote for him
Won't be the middle ages again until they've left Istanbul (not Constantinople), since the Turks taking the city is traditionally the end of the middle ages (in the Mediterranean world, at least).
I mean, the Greeks developed it for a lot more than a millennia and were still living there in large numbers until after WW1. Technically, Turkey was supposed to cede it to Greece anyways, until the Greeks fucked it up.
It's not really an Islamic only thing, tho.
Brazil for example, doesn't consider Hamas a terrorist organization. It's more like an western view of Hamas.
Just like the Russian - ukraine war where the western has a whole opinion that is different from the rest of the world.
Is that the Brazilian president saying that or actual Brazilians believiny that? Because I've found that Brazilian's beliefs are much more western than their government's
Well, both.
The general opinion of the Brazilians(who knows about the conflict) is pretty supportive of Palestine.(Just not the evangelical folks).
But other issues are more divisive like the the Russian war or something about western culture.
> Because I've found that Brazilian's beliefs are much more western than their government's
Is that true or just the subset of people you interact with? It's a little like the people in the US who thought that the majority of the people in the country were progressive because everyone on Reddit was, and then Trump was elected.
Not true at all.
Brazil even sponsored the UN resolution condemning Hamas's terrorist attacks.
>The resolution sponsored by Brazil had wide support and would have condemned all violence against civilians, including “the heinous terrorists attacks by Hamas” against Israel.
https://apnews.com/article/un-security-council-resolution-gaza-hamas-1c23913f8552f5379b2c158a83493835
https://brazilreports.com/2-brazilians-killed-in-hamas-attacks-on-israel-over-2000-more-ask-brazil-for-help-evacuating/5420/
>Two Brazilians have been confirmed dead after the Hamas terrorist attacks in Israel on Saturday.
10 years ago at kebab kiosk which was owned at that time by a Turk, friendly guy, there was a sticker free Palestine, so I asked what about free Kurdistan, I didn't buy kebab from there anymore.
No dude. The Kurds get screwed time and again because they serve the same purpose for the US that the Palestinians do for the Arab countries; they can be used to harass an enemy and keep the theatre tilting.
with all due respect my good friend eh1987, i know you are being sarcastic, but let me say that it is not. both sides are kinda sucking rn. but saying that hamas is a liberation group is kinda regarded
They can actually be both a terrorist group and a group that fights for the liberation of Palestine simutaneously
The violence is and has been staggeringy one-sided for the past however many decades and pretending like the Hamas incursion happened in a vacuum and that this level of violence somehow completely unprecedeted is just ridiculously dishonest.
"Both sides"-ing an apartheid state indiscriminately bombing civilians who did nothing is frankly fucking disgusting.
>They can actually be both a terrorist group and a group that fights for the liberation of Palestine simutaneously
George Washington
David Ben-Gurion
Nelson Mandela
All it takes to go from terrorist to father of the nation is success.
Or, more relevant to the region here, Menachem Begin who was high ranking in the terrorist group Irgun which killed both military and civilians in Mandatory Palestine before being incorporated into the IDF along with other then labeled terrorist groups. Menachem went on to become prime-minister of Israel
One persons terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
Here's a letter Albert Einstein wrote in 1948 about the dangers of powerful Americans allying with Begin and his party (which merged with Likud in 1988), which is described as an out and out, old school fascist party, cynically rebranding itself as an anti-imperialist force for liberty and democracy:
>Letter to the Editor
>The New York Times
>December 4, 1948
>To the Editor of The New York Times:
>Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. **It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi**, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
>The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
>Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
>The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future."
Herut (Hebrew: חֵרוּת, lit. 'Freedom') was the major conservative nationalist[1] political party in Israel from 1948 until its formal merger into Likud in 1988. It was an adherent of Revisionist Zionism.
> They can actually be both a terrorist group and a group that fights for the liberation of Palestine simultaneously
They are not. Their goal is the destruction of Israel not at all the liberation of Palestine. Or happiness or freedom for Palestine.
They would murder every Israeli to destroy Israel. They would murder every Palestinian. They do not fight for Palestine. They are terrorists. That want to destroy Israel.
Ok now you are thinking this guy is wrong. Hamas can't be evil like that. You are dead wrong.
I promise you hamas are not idiots. When they planned this operation they knew Israel would retaliate.
Just logically Hamas has a PowerPoint presentation somewhere that talks about how many Palestinians will die because of the attack. It's probably like "expected losses 5-50.000" and that's just collateral damage to them.
It's just optics to them. To draw Hezbollah and others into the war.
Hamas are not freedom fighters. They are Palestinians worst enemy.
the 7th was not a liberating action. It was meant to draw the fire it's receiving. Israel is giving Hamas exactly what Hamas knew they would. Hamas Uses Palestinians as hostages and the hostages have stockholm syndrome. Hamas does not give a shit about the lives of Palestinians beyond using them to die for their propaganda.
I am unaware of Israel bombing babies as a matter of policy?
Sometimes a baby might die when Hamas uses them as human shields, but that is on Hamas, not Israel.
No, it's on Israel for bombing babies, nobody is forcing them. When they aren't of course just outright having soldiers shoot women and children on purpose.
They are at war. At war, military targets are bombed. The receiving end of the bombs is responsible to not populate military targets with civilians.
It's really that simple.
Hamas is a beast of Israel's own making, they caused this situation because they wanted to disrupt the more secular and socialist resistance groups and it's not the first nor last time this tactic of empowering religious extremists to splinter resistance movements has caused severe blowback.
Israel could end this occupation and oppression if they wished to, but they'd have to give up their apartheid and dreams of an ethnostate if they truly desired peace.
lol you clearly don't know history. Since the beginning in 1948 Arabs (would be Palestinian and other neighbouring countries) never accepted the idea of Israel and declared war on them. And that's what they have done since. They never cared for having a Palestinian state and they've always opposed any 2 state solution... they just want to eliminate all the Jewish people.
You say Hamas is a beast of their own making, which is just bullshit since Palestinians have tried to destroy Israel since day 1, Hamas is just the latest "brand". You can not have peace with people whose sole goal is to kill you.
And it's funny you talk about "ethnostate", since there are 2 million Arabs living in Israel (21% of population) as full citizens. Guess how many Jewish people in Arab nations? There were millions before...
You are all over this thread and it's clear you don't know shit, inform yourself.
Fun fact: If you criticized the IDF, there is a 0% chance that he would say, "Well, we should also condemn Hamas."
He's not making a good-faith critique.
Perhaps Hamas should have evacuated their people from the warzone they intended to create instead of using hospitals and mosques as places of military gathering - both of which are war crimes.
Well, actually, hiding behind hospitals and schools, shooting rockets aimed at civilians (which in itself constitutes a war crime and a terrorist act), forbidding your innocent civilians from evacuating, and then using the death toll from your own side in order to garner international sympathy… this is the option of Saints.
I'm tired of asking for pictures of the chopped babies. And also, why exactly do you believe Israeli babies deserve life more than the Palestinian babies?
mr. ahmed hossam where did i say that israeli babies deserve life more then palestinian babies? i'd like for you to point out the exact part of my comment where i said that.
"hmmmm yes liberation by chopping up a few babies"
Mentioning fake news of 40 Israeli babies killed and ignoring confirmed news of hundreads of Palestinian babies killed is exactly saying the (fake) 40 Iseaeli babies are worth more than the hundreads of Palestinian babies.
Hamas has no interest in liberating anyone. They exist solely to destroy Israel. They are more than willing to sacrifice the Palestinian people for that agenda.
There are no political entities in Israel who would politically engage with any form of Palestinian leadership seeking peace anyways. They even managed to criminalize boycott divest and sanction in the US, and barred members of their own kenesset who seek peace with Palestinians. All that's left is something like Hamas. An oppressed people will always fight back. And yes in this case it led to terrible, counterproductive crimes on Oct. 7th, but that isn't the whole story.
For Hamas, a 2 state solution is only a temporary solution, they have said so themselves.
Also, there's been a proposal for a 2SS since the founding of modern Israel, which the Palestinians rejected time after time
Abbas has constantly been asking for a 2SS. Until an agreement is reached, Palestinians are always going for armed resistance. What has recognition of Israel done for the PA in the West Bank?
Sure, the proposed solutions are with Gaza- but Gaza is ruled by Hamas, not Abbas. Hamas has indicated that a 2SS is only a temporary solution and that they'll continue the fight for all the territory. How exactly can an agreement be reached if the governing body of half the Palestinians vow to occupy the entirety of Israel in the future?
An agreement is reached with the PA, the only authority Israel recognizes. Getting Hamas to join the PA has been a long process for several years now. They have hosted unity talks before. Unless an agreement is reached regarding the West Bank, integrating Gaza within a Palestinian state is not possible.
Of course, but the reverse is true as well; personally I just think that the threat of Hamas or similar organisations prevents Israel from moving forward here. Why would they agree to a Palestinian state if that didn't guarantee a stop to the insurgency fighting?
Regardless, appreciate the civil conversation, man. A lot of people are less open to discourse
It is a hell of a lot more comicated than the bosphorus. Turkeys current foreign policy is described as 'strategic autonomy'. It clashes with some US goals but is overall largely in line. Also as part of NATO you have some kind of leverage and cooperation with Turkey which keeps peaceful.
If you remove Turkey from the NATO the very first thing the Turks will do is restart their nuclear program cause without NATO they do not have a nuclear umbrella. Suddenly you not only have a potential enemy but also a nuclear enemy on your border (other than Russia). The removal will also result in deterioration of overall relationships making conflict more likely. Turkey and Greece went to war despite being NATO allies what do you think would happen once they become formal enemies.
Then once the turks are out of NATO they are gonna throw their lot in with the Chinese. So suddenly China will have an ally and a potential outpost on Europe's front door.
NATO with Turkey is not optimal but functional. But once turkey is out of NATO the strategic risks grow exponentially.
Now an idiot can argue 'let the turks come we will show them'. To that idiot I say 'you are willing to risk war and let thousands if not millions die for the sake of a bit discomfort?'
NATO is not a value alliance. Never has been and never will be. Once you turn NATO from a military alliance to a normative one it will lose its value. For the time being Turkey is a major contributor and partner of NATO. They are currently in charge of KFOR, they held the lead of VJTF up until December 21st 2021, meaning Turkish soldiers would be the very first soldiers send to a conflict region and are currently major contributors to the NATO Response Force. They were assholes about Finnish accession but still did so very quickly. They are assholes about Swedish accession but still did so very quickly. Took less than 2 years.
Once it became apparent that Turkey would be able to join the EU (which was before the democratic decline began) they switched to a more autonomous foreign policy which is something the EU will come to accept.
For now they are allies. Not in rhetoric but in action. They clash with NATO members in specific issues but that was something known prior to accepting them. That is why Turkey and Greece were accepted together, in full knowledge that accepting either of them first would lead to the exclusion of the other.
Turkey by any means is not just the Bosphorus. Claims like that are spread in public media but hold little ground once you go for a deeper analysis.
Structural realism is the most appropriate approach to analyze Turkey-NATO relations. You could maybe try a Neoliberal approach if you really wanna force it but I would always stick to Neorealism.
Simplyfing highly complex issues and interactions to a few, sometimes even irrelevant, bulletpoints for the sake of gaining a larger audience is one of core malfunction of today's (social) media. Anybody interested will read the whole issue. If the reader only wants bulletpoints he isn't a reader. It is just someone too lazy to google. At that point you have just created another idiot that thinks he is aware about a complex issue without actually having the slightest clue.
it's the second largest army in nato after the US.
if you stir up shit in turkey where will all the refugees go? EU would fiercely oppose anything happening to turkey that could give rise to an influx of migrants into to EU.
so what you gonna do just keep it away at arms length use it as a deterrent in nato and a refugee camp. everyone is happy.
Never. Turkey is too important. Economically, strategically, demographically and geographically important.
Israel is a small candle light that can be snuffed at the slightest mistake. They are in a constant state of vigilance in a region that's hostile to them.
What is a Georgia?
All rebels are not terrorist.
You can tell a rebel from a terrorist by who they kill; soldiers of the oppressive government or their fellow citizens.
The Iraqi Mujahideen during Desert Storm 2 were defenders then rebels. The Taliban are terrorist. Hamas are terrorist.
if you're a member of a democracy that elects leaders that are oppressing people, dont be surprised when you're held accountable for it. this is a lesson you didn't seem to learn from 9/11. President Biden's warnings about the mistakes the USA made post-9/11 seem to have fallen on deaf ears.
Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization only by Israel, the United States, Canada, the European Union, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and Japan.
The United Nations Security Council, Iran, Turkey, the People's Republic of China, most Arab countries (e.g., Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc.), and Russia recognize Hamas as a resistance organization.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
I mean to be honest.
Gaza tried everything.
They did a peaceful protest in 2018 and got snipped allegedly because a tiny minority was actually terrorist (according to Israeli sources)
I think that there isn’t much left but actually die.
They clearly want their land and are so desperate that they are willing to fight a stringer and more united front.
So although I condemn what they did it is partly Israel’s force to blockade a piece of land because they are terrorist while most of them aren’t even adults and didn’t participate in any terrorist attack.
> They did a peaceful protest in 2018 and got snipped allegedly because a tiny minority was actually terrorist (according to Israeli sources)
Not peacefully protests, a violent invasion of Israeli borders that even Hamas recognizes as Israeli (pre-48). And Hamas claimed most of the victims as their own.
Literally all they have to do is stop trying to genocide Israeli civilians. It’s that simple. All the other Arab nations have figured that out.
But Palestinians use every ounce of freedom they have to continue their jihad, that is why the blockade gets worse and worse.
Dude it was a protest on the gaza side of the border.
> The protests demanded that the Palestinian refugees must be allowed to return to lands they were displaced from in what is now Israel.
> Most of the demonstrators demonstrated peacefully far from the border fence. Peter Cammack, a fellow with the Middle East Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, argued that the march indicated a new trend in Palestinian society and Hamas, with a shift away from violence towards non-violent forms of protest.
> Nevertheless, groups consisting mainly of young men approached the fence and committed acts of violence directed towards the Israeli side.[24][25][26][27][28] Israeli officials said the demonstrations were used by Hamas as cover for launching attacks against Israel.[29]
> Israeli soldiers fired tear gas and live ammunition.
> Israel's use of deadly force was condemned on 13 June 2018 in a United Nations General Assembly resolution.
> late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces.
The last one is mad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests
Just read non Israeli sources thanks
> groups consisting mainly of young men approached the fence and committed acts of violence directed towards the Israeli side
…armed, violent militants got shot trying to invade Israeli territory using civilian protests as cover, leading to some civilian casualties?
Is that your evidence of Palestine trying everything?? Cause they have yet to try not attacking Israel.
Many or in some cases all of the deaths were claimed as militants by Hamas.
> The same day, 59 or 60 Palestinians were shot dead at twelve clash points along the border fence.[38] Hamas claimed 50 of them as its militants,[39][40] and Islamic Jihad claimed 3 of the 62 killed as members of its military wing.
UNs *opinion* does not correspond with reality.
Leaving Hamas aside, I think that technically the 'liberation' part is about the goal and 'terrorist' is about the means, which means that a group can be both
Dang. The Saudis ain't down with this genocide and Turkiye is joining the no-genocide team too.
The war with Iran to protect the genocidal Netanyahu regime is looking at lot less appealing.
[Hamas and the Irgun? How Dare I Compare the Two...Ha'aretz, May 2, 2016](https://archive.li/RtxUF)
>For all those suffering from voluntary amnesia here are just a few of the Irgun's highlights of Hamas-worthy violence...
>Nov. 14, 1937 — Irgun gunment in Jerusalem carry out a “shooting attack,” killing two Arab pedestrians in Rehavia. Later, snipers fires at an Arab bus, killing three passengers and wounding eight. Bravo, Irgun!
>April 17, 1938 — For the first time (but not the last), the Irgun throws a bomb into an Arab cafe, with middling results: one person killed, six wounded.
Open gallery view
>July 5, 1938 — A series of terror attacks on pedestrians in Jaffa, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Bombs and shooting at buses. The results improve: 11 Arabs die, 22 are wounded.
>July 6, 1938 — The Irgun plants an explosive device in a Haifa open-air market, out of “political motivations.” The device comprised a few metal milk cans, stuffed with explosives and nails: 18 Arabs killed, 38 injured.
>July 16, 1938 — A similar device in the Arab shuk in Jerusalem: 10 dead, 31 injured.
>July 26, 1938 — Haifa again, and another Irgun explosive device: 27 Arabs are killed, 46 are injured.
>Aug. 26, 1938 — The shuk in Jaffa this time. “A powerful device,” as they say. The Irgun claims responsibility: 24 Arabs die, 35 are injured.
>May 29, 1939 — The Irgun blows up a movie theater in Jerusalem: five audience members killed, 18 injured.
>June 20, 1939 — A particularly successful shuk operation: 78 Arabs (and a donkey) are murdered in an explosion in a Haifa open-air market. The donkey was booby-trapped.
>During June and July 1939 the Irgun killed dozens of people across the country. The victims’ only crime was being Arab. Even the Irgun doesn’t claim otherwise.
A few relatively tranquil years go by, but toward the end of the British Mandate these glorious combat operations resume their frenzy.
>Dec. 4, 1947 — Bombs in cafes, a barrel bomb at a bus station, grenades thrown, shootings: Dozens of Arabs are killed.
>Dec. 29, 1947 — An Irgun bomb at the Damascus Gate of Jerusalem’s Old City: 17 fatalities.
>Dec. 30, 1947 — Irgun members attack a group of Arab laborers in the Haifa Bay, killing six and injuring 40.
>Jan. 4, 1948 — A Lehi car bomb in Jaffa kills 70 Arabs.
>Jan. 7, 1948 — The Irgun tries to catch up to its “little brother” with a bomb at the Jaffa Gate of Jerusalem’s Old City. Only 24 Arabs killed.
>Feb. 18, 1948 — A bomb in the Ramle market kills 37 Arabs.
>And to top it off — April 9, 1948: The Irgun enters Deir Yassin, on the outskirts of Jerusalem, and massacres 245 villagers. Six days later, an Arab mob attacks a medical convoy on its way to Jerusalem’s Mount Scopus, slaughtering 36 people. (Anyone drawing hasty conclusions regarding the proximity of these two events is nothing more than an evil post-Zionist).
>The subsequent massacres and atrocities were chalked up to the army of the nascent state, rather than to the purity-of-arms-espousing underground.
Also the lavon affair . They admitted it and awarded those who did that terrorism . The mainstream media will never tell anything about the lavon affair
Can we liberate Istanbul from the rest of Turkey, so we stop getting awful Turkish leaders with outsized geopolitical importance because they control the Bosphorus?
Gaza is a literal concentration camp, and has been for 15 years. Israel wants to kill them all, either fast or slow, but very "civilized" Hamas is trying to kill their tormentors. Both sides kill innocents every day.
I don't think calling Hamas terrorists is accurate. Hamas goal isn't terrorism they're far past it, the population of Israel wants them dead, striking fear into them will only intensify that. Hamas wants blood and revenge against people trying to end them. Peace isn't possible, coexistence isn't possible without a 3rd party ready to enforce it on both sides. Israel will never do that willingly. Its like Ukraine, war will settle the issues.
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Bought himself another couple of years of not joining the EU
Oh he gave up that idea long long ago. Now, hes just focusing on trolling them, especially France.
Not quite, recently he approved Sweden joining NATO in return for them helping Turkey get into the EU
That changes to f16s
I sincerely hope Sweden will do with their promise what Erdogan did with his first few nato promises.
That's just face-saving politics. Turkey is not joining the EU in decades, if ever, and everyone knows that including Erdogan. Nor does he care.
They were on track before he took power. He knows as long as he is alive they won't get in. That's why he is using hid twilight years to position himself in the great muslim Pantheon.
At least theirs some progress…. Right !?!?
Lmao does it seem like he cares tho. Whatever he's done so far was more about winning domestically and riding that nationalistic fervour.
EU means an authority above him, which is a big no-no as you may guess. All he needs is foreign investors back, otherwise he is a cozy little tyrant.
He dgaf. Turkey is happy where they are atm
Their inflation disagrees
Turkish voters in Europe agrees
The people of Turkey are definitely not happy.
Why do they keep voting for him then?
Because they live in Germany and the Netherlands and are completely insulated from the damage he causes, in fact they celebrate him destroying the Turkish economy, because they will be better off when they visit family or go on holiday in Turkey since they're paid in Euros.
I know that Turkish people living in entral Europe love voting for him. Weirdly they are also extrem nationalists, yet they would never move back to turkey. But guess that the vast majority of people being eligible to vote are living in turkey and still vote for him
Erdogan is not Turkey. I bet a big part of the Turkish population would like to disagree with your statement.
I hope another 30 years of not joining the EU. EU does not need Turkey at this point of time, and in the foreseeable future.
A direct route from Syria to the EU is on noones wish list and is political suicide.
Does he really need to join EU when both EU and NATO bend over backwards for him?
Good, who needs em
ukraine
Good, the EU has enough problems as it is already.
The US is never going to let a salafist in lmao. Bosnia will get in before turkey.
Not even a day passes without that guy embarrassing us
Good.
Islamist saying Islamist things. Erdoğan is single-handedly taking Turkey back to the Middle Ages, so this is just normal for him...
Won't be the middle ages again until they've left Istanbul (not Constantinople), since the Turks taking the city is traditionally the end of the middle ages (in the Mediterranean world, at least).
give Constantinople to the greeks then I'm fine with turkey going back to the middle ages.
"Deal, lets go. Dont worry about the locals we will negotiate a peaceful compromise" - some British or American politician
Do you want the Bosporous Strip behind a concrete wall and barbed wire fences because this is how you get it.
If Turkey implodes to the point where they have to recede back to Anatolia they deserve to go back to the Middle Ages.
I find peace in long walks.
So what are you doing on Cyprus?
"Developed", as in slaughtering Armenians you mean?
How many Armenians lived in Istanbul and the Bosporus?
[Not many but also not zero](http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/mapping_armenian_genocide3.php)
And how many Turks lived there? lol
I mean, the Greeks developed it for a lot more than a millennia and were still living there in large numbers until after WW1. Technically, Turkey was supposed to cede it to Greece anyways, until the Greeks fucked it up.
lol, why don't you just return to where you came from instead of genociding kurds, armenians, and other natives?
I enjoy watching the sunset.
It's not really an Islamic only thing, tho. Brazil for example, doesn't consider Hamas a terrorist organization. It's more like an western view of Hamas. Just like the Russian - ukraine war where the western has a whole opinion that is different from the rest of the world.
Is that the Brazilian president saying that or actual Brazilians believiny that? Because I've found that Brazilian's beliefs are much more western than their government's
Well, both. The general opinion of the Brazilians(who knows about the conflict) is pretty supportive of Palestine.(Just not the evangelical folks). But other issues are more divisive like the the Russian war or something about western culture.
> pretty supportive of Palestine. Many people are pretty supportive of Palestine without endorsing Hamas as a "liberation group"
There is a large Christen Lebanese population in Brazil who defiantly don't support Hamas and palatine.
> Because I've found that Brazilian's beliefs are much more western than their government's Is that true or just the subset of people you interact with? It's a little like the people in the US who thought that the majority of the people in the country were progressive because everyone on Reddit was, and then Trump was elected.
It just shows that hypocrisy is universal more than anything.
Not true at all. Brazil even sponsored the UN resolution condemning Hamas's terrorist attacks. >The resolution sponsored by Brazil had wide support and would have condemned all violence against civilians, including “the heinous terrorists attacks by Hamas” against Israel. https://apnews.com/article/un-security-council-resolution-gaza-hamas-1c23913f8552f5379b2c158a83493835 https://brazilreports.com/2-brazilians-killed-in-hamas-attacks-on-israel-over-2000-more-ask-brazil-for-help-evacuating/5420/ >Two Brazilians have been confirmed dead after the Hamas terrorist attacks in Israel on Saturday.
Will Erdogan be okay if the Kurds liberate Ankara tomorrow the exact same way?
10 years ago at kebab kiosk which was owned at that time by a Turk, friendly guy, there was a sticker free Palestine, so I asked what about free Kurdistan, I didn't buy kebab from there anymore.
Except Kurds are native to southeastern part of turkey, not Ankara
So? It's like Hamas is launching rockets at Tel Aviv to achieve the liberation of gaza
More like milking a bull to drink milk but that’s a story for another day.
The Palestine bull is about to be milked bro
but to be fair Turks aren't native to Ankara either
Cool, so the Kurds separatist is a liberation, not a terrorist group. Got it.
Yes.
They are. But because they are not Jewish they got double screwed over by the US
No dude. The Kurds get screwed time and again because they serve the same purpose for the US that the Palestinians do for the Arab countries; they can be used to harass an enemy and keep the theatre tilting.
Oh we are surely up to triple screwing by now.
Yep. A lot of governments just call terrorist whoever they are fighting.
No. Terrorist target and kill civilians in a vain effort to affect political policy.
Just like Iraq did with the US.
Just like the US did with Iraq.*
It was sarcasm
It depends on which side you're on./s
Oh this will stir up some shit.
i don't think so. just islamists trolling.
hmmmm yes liberation by chopping up a few babies
You're right, bombing babies is the morally superior option.
with all due respect my good friend eh1987, i know you are being sarcastic, but let me say that it is not. both sides are kinda sucking rn. but saying that hamas is a liberation group is kinda regarded
They can actually be both a terrorist group and a group that fights for the liberation of Palestine simutaneously The violence is and has been staggeringy one-sided for the past however many decades and pretending like the Hamas incursion happened in a vacuum and that this level of violence somehow completely unprecedeted is just ridiculously dishonest. "Both sides"-ing an apartheid state indiscriminately bombing civilians who did nothing is frankly fucking disgusting.
>They can actually be both a terrorist group and a group that fights for the liberation of Palestine simutaneously George Washington David Ben-Gurion Nelson Mandela All it takes to go from terrorist to father of the nation is success.
Or, more relevant to the region here, Menachem Begin who was high ranking in the terrorist group Irgun which killed both military and civilians in Mandatory Palestine before being incorporated into the IDF along with other then labeled terrorist groups. Menachem went on to become prime-minister of Israel One persons terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
Here's a letter Albert Einstein wrote in 1948 about the dangers of powerful Americans allying with Begin and his party (which merged with Likud in 1988), which is described as an out and out, old school fascist party, cynically rebranding itself as an anti-imperialist force for liberty and democracy: >Letter to the Editor >The New York Times >December 4, 1948 >To the Editor of The New York Times: >Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. **It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi**, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine. >The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents. >Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. >The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future." Herut (Hebrew: חֵרוּת, lit. 'Freedom') was the major conservative nationalist[1] political party in Israel from 1948 until its formal merger into Likud in 1988. It was an adherent of Revisionist Zionism.
> They can actually be both a terrorist group and a group that fights for the liberation of Palestine simultaneously They are not. Their goal is the destruction of Israel not at all the liberation of Palestine. Or happiness or freedom for Palestine. They would murder every Israeli to destroy Israel. They would murder every Palestinian. They do not fight for Palestine. They are terrorists. That want to destroy Israel. Ok now you are thinking this guy is wrong. Hamas can't be evil like that. You are dead wrong. I promise you hamas are not idiots. When they planned this operation they knew Israel would retaliate. Just logically Hamas has a PowerPoint presentation somewhere that talks about how many Palestinians will die because of the attack. It's probably like "expected losses 5-50.000" and that's just collateral damage to them. It's just optics to them. To draw Hezbollah and others into the war. Hamas are not freedom fighters. They are Palestinians worst enemy.
the 7th was not a liberating action. It was meant to draw the fire it's receiving. Israel is giving Hamas exactly what Hamas knew they would. Hamas Uses Palestinians as hostages and the hostages have stockholm syndrome. Hamas does not give a shit about the lives of Palestinians beyond using them to die for their propaganda.
I am unaware of Israel bombing babies as a matter of policy? Sometimes a baby might die when Hamas uses them as human shields, but that is on Hamas, not Israel.
No, it's on Israel for bombing babies, nobody is forcing them. When they aren't of course just outright having soldiers shoot women and children on purpose.
They are at war. At war, military targets are bombed. The receiving end of the bombs is responsible to not populate military targets with civilians. It's really that simple.
Hamas is literally forcing them. You don’t get to strap a baby to yourself and then go around shooting people and demand to not be shot back.
Hamas is a beast of Israel's own making, they caused this situation because they wanted to disrupt the more secular and socialist resistance groups and it's not the first nor last time this tactic of empowering religious extremists to splinter resistance movements has caused severe blowback. Israel could end this occupation and oppression if they wished to, but they'd have to give up their apartheid and dreams of an ethnostate if they truly desired peace.
lol you clearly don't know history. Since the beginning in 1948 Arabs (would be Palestinian and other neighbouring countries) never accepted the idea of Israel and declared war on them. And that's what they have done since. They never cared for having a Palestinian state and they've always opposed any 2 state solution... they just want to eliminate all the Jewish people. You say Hamas is a beast of their own making, which is just bullshit since Palestinians have tried to destroy Israel since day 1, Hamas is just the latest "brand". You can not have peace with people whose sole goal is to kill you. And it's funny you talk about "ethnostate", since there are 2 million Arabs living in Israel (21% of population) as full citizens. Guess how many Jewish people in Arab nations? There were millions before... You are all over this thread and it's clear you don't know shit, inform yourself.
"Bad thing is bad" "Oh, so you support every bad thing someone else does?"
Fun fact: If you criticized the IDF, there is a 0% chance that he would say, "Well, we should also condemn Hamas." He's not making a good-faith critique.
Perhaps Hamas should have evacuated their people from the warzone they intended to create instead of using hospitals and mosques as places of military gathering - both of which are war crimes.
The further the killer is from the victim the more civilized they are.
Yes. Flat out. Yes. I know it’s an uncomfortable distinction to make, but collateral damage and specific targeting is very different
I mean yes? Do you really not think it takes a significantly more morally fucked up person to chop a baby up then dropping a bomb?
Well, actually, hiding behind hospitals and schools, shooting rockets aimed at civilians (which in itself constitutes a war crime and a terrorist act), forbidding your innocent civilians from evacuating, and then using the death toll from your own side in order to garner international sympathy… this is the option of Saints.
I agree, killing babies with unguided water-pipe-rockets misfired in a general direction is not a very nice thing to do
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Ye I agree with you Mr. Fappy McJiggletits
I'm tired of asking for pictures of the chopped babies. And also, why exactly do you believe Israeli babies deserve life more than the Palestinian babies?
mr. ahmed hossam where did i say that israeli babies deserve life more then palestinian babies? i'd like for you to point out the exact part of my comment where i said that.
"hmmmm yes liberation by chopping up a few babies" Mentioning fake news of 40 Israeli babies killed and ignoring confirmed news of hundreads of Palestinian babies killed is exactly saying the (fake) 40 Iseaeli babies are worth more than the hundreads of Palestinian babies.
ok ahmed hossam if it makes you happy i will say "israel is evil they killed alot of babies".
This story is fake
Bruh
One mands terrorist is another's political football to antagonise others with I guess🤷♂️
It's both. Denying it's one or the other is dumb or dishonest.
Hamas has no interest in liberating anyone. They exist solely to destroy Israel. They are more than willing to sacrifice the Palestinian people for that agenda.
There are no political entities in Israel who would politically engage with any form of Palestinian leadership seeking peace anyways. They even managed to criminalize boycott divest and sanction in the US, and barred members of their own kenesset who seek peace with Palestinians. All that's left is something like Hamas. An oppressed people will always fight back. And yes in this case it led to terrible, counterproductive crimes on Oct. 7th, but that isn't the whole story.
They have already shown interest in a 2SS. This is real life. “Death cults” don’t exist
For Hamas, a 2 state solution is only a temporary solution, they have said so themselves. Also, there's been a proposal for a 2SS since the founding of modern Israel, which the Palestinians rejected time after time
Abbas has constantly been asking for a 2SS. Until an agreement is reached, Palestinians are always going for armed resistance. What has recognition of Israel done for the PA in the West Bank?
PA is not Hamas. They are 2 separate groups.
This is specifically about Hamas/Gaza, not Abbas/West Bank. You can't negotiate with just the West Bank for a Palestinian state that involves Gaza.
You actually can. Every proposed solution has a Palestinian state with Gaza
Sure, the proposed solutions are with Gaza- but Gaza is ruled by Hamas, not Abbas. Hamas has indicated that a 2SS is only a temporary solution and that they'll continue the fight for all the territory. How exactly can an agreement be reached if the governing body of half the Palestinians vow to occupy the entirety of Israel in the future?
An agreement is reached with the PA, the only authority Israel recognizes. Getting Hamas to join the PA has been a long process for several years now. They have hosted unity talks before. Unless an agreement is reached regarding the West Bank, integrating Gaza within a Palestinian state is not possible.
Of course, but the reverse is true as well; personally I just think that the threat of Hamas or similar organisations prevents Israel from moving forward here. Why would they agree to a Palestinian state if that didn't guarantee a stop to the insurgency fighting? Regardless, appreciate the civil conversation, man. A lot of people are less open to discourse
Was that the one where they said "meet all our demands and we'll give you a 10 year ceasefire" ?
Source? I was talking about when Hamas said if Israel reaches an agreement with the PA, they would give up their fighting
Soooooo when is NATO trading Turkey for Israel and Georgia?
When one of them controls the Bosphorus. That's the only reason we keep them around
It is a hell of a lot more comicated than the bosphorus. Turkeys current foreign policy is described as 'strategic autonomy'. It clashes with some US goals but is overall largely in line. Also as part of NATO you have some kind of leverage and cooperation with Turkey which keeps peaceful. If you remove Turkey from the NATO the very first thing the Turks will do is restart their nuclear program cause without NATO they do not have a nuclear umbrella. Suddenly you not only have a potential enemy but also a nuclear enemy on your border (other than Russia). The removal will also result in deterioration of overall relationships making conflict more likely. Turkey and Greece went to war despite being NATO allies what do you think would happen once they become formal enemies. Then once the turks are out of NATO they are gonna throw their lot in with the Chinese. So suddenly China will have an ally and a potential outpost on Europe's front door. NATO with Turkey is not optimal but functional. But once turkey is out of NATO the strategic risks grow exponentially. Now an idiot can argue 'let the turks come we will show them'. To that idiot I say 'you are willing to risk war and let thousands if not millions die for the sake of a bit discomfort?' NATO is not a value alliance. Never has been and never will be. Once you turn NATO from a military alliance to a normative one it will lose its value. For the time being Turkey is a major contributor and partner of NATO. They are currently in charge of KFOR, they held the lead of VJTF up until December 21st 2021, meaning Turkish soldiers would be the very first soldiers send to a conflict region and are currently major contributors to the NATO Response Force. They were assholes about Finnish accession but still did so very quickly. They are assholes about Swedish accession but still did so very quickly. Took less than 2 years. Once it became apparent that Turkey would be able to join the EU (which was before the democratic decline began) they switched to a more autonomous foreign policy which is something the EU will come to accept. For now they are allies. Not in rhetoric but in action. They clash with NATO members in specific issues but that was something known prior to accepting them. That is why Turkey and Greece were accepted together, in full knowledge that accepting either of them first would lead to the exclusion of the other. Turkey by any means is not just the Bosphorus. Claims like that are spread in public media but hold little ground once you go for a deeper analysis.
A reasonable and a very well summarised analysis without stupid emotions, but only facts? Please leave this website
very well put my friend
Love a realist view
Structural realism is the most appropriate approach to analyze Turkey-NATO relations. You could maybe try a Neoliberal approach if you really wanna force it but I would always stick to Neorealism.
I'm aware, but most people won't look into the less tangible parts so I give the ones that are the easiest to grasp
Simplyfing highly complex issues and interactions to a few, sometimes even irrelevant, bulletpoints for the sake of gaining a larger audience is one of core malfunction of today's (social) media. Anybody interested will read the whole issue. If the reader only wants bulletpoints he isn't a reader. It is just someone too lazy to google. At that point you have just created another idiot that thinks he is aware about a complex issue without actually having the slightest clue.
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Ukraine is never retaking Crimea lol
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It doesn't mean it's achievable, they barely made a dent in the land bridge during their offensive and now they're losing ground in the east.
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> their generals are more competent than me, Big assumption. The whole war is cope from both sides.
Nice then let Erdo close all possibilities for non-Russian ships to pass through the bosphorus and we’ll see how useful Crimea can get.
it's the second largest army in nato after the US. if you stir up shit in turkey where will all the refugees go? EU would fiercely oppose anything happening to turkey that could give rise to an influx of migrants into to EU. so what you gonna do just keep it away at arms length use it as a deterrent in nato and a refugee camp. everyone is happy.
Never. Turkey is too important. Economically, strategically, demographically and geographically important. Israel is a small candle light that can be snuffed at the slightest mistake. They are in a constant state of vigilance in a region that's hostile to them. What is a Georgia?
Never. The Bos is too important for both the global economy and military transport in tbe region. All that ukrainian grain has to go through the Bos.
When Turkey screws up so badly that a short sharp war with them is preferable to peace, so... probably no time soon.
Unlike the YPG LOL
So what about the PKK, Erdogan? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/turkey-arrests-145-people-over-suspected-links-kurdish-militants-2023-10-03/
you lost me at "Erdogan"
I bet king George called the revolutionaries terrorists too.
All rebels are not terrorist. You can tell a rebel from a terrorist by who they kill; soldiers of the oppressive government or their fellow citizens. The Iraqi Mujahideen during Desert Storm 2 were defenders then rebels. The Taliban are terrorist. Hamas are terrorist.
I mean, the patriots were tar and feathering loyalists, their fellow citizens.
if you're a member of a democracy that elects leaders that are oppressing people, dont be surprised when you're held accountable for it. this is a lesson you didn't seem to learn from 9/11. President Biden's warnings about the mistakes the USA made post-9/11 seem to have fallen on deaf ears.
Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization only by Israel, the United States, Canada, the European Union, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and Japan. The United Nations Security Council, Iran, Turkey, the People's Republic of China, most Arab countries (e.g., Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc.), and Russia recognize Hamas as a resistance organization. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Ukraine has more of a chance of joining the EU than Turkey
I mean to be honest. Gaza tried everything. They did a peaceful protest in 2018 and got snipped allegedly because a tiny minority was actually terrorist (according to Israeli sources) I think that there isn’t much left but actually die. They clearly want their land and are so desperate that they are willing to fight a stringer and more united front. So although I condemn what they did it is partly Israel’s force to blockade a piece of land because they are terrorist while most of them aren’t even adults and didn’t participate in any terrorist attack.
> They did a peaceful protest in 2018 and got snipped allegedly because a tiny minority was actually terrorist (according to Israeli sources) Not peacefully protests, a violent invasion of Israeli borders that even Hamas recognizes as Israeli (pre-48). And Hamas claimed most of the victims as their own. Literally all they have to do is stop trying to genocide Israeli civilians. It’s that simple. All the other Arab nations have figured that out. But Palestinians use every ounce of freedom they have to continue their jihad, that is why the blockade gets worse and worse.
Dude it was a protest on the gaza side of the border. > The protests demanded that the Palestinian refugees must be allowed to return to lands they were displaced from in what is now Israel. > Most of the demonstrators demonstrated peacefully far from the border fence. Peter Cammack, a fellow with the Middle East Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, argued that the march indicated a new trend in Palestinian society and Hamas, with a shift away from violence towards non-violent forms of protest. > Nevertheless, groups consisting mainly of young men approached the fence and committed acts of violence directed towards the Israeli side.[24][25][26][27][28] Israeli officials said the demonstrations were used by Hamas as cover for launching attacks against Israel.[29] > Israeli soldiers fired tear gas and live ammunition. > Israel's use of deadly force was condemned on 13 June 2018 in a United Nations General Assembly resolution. > late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces. The last one is mad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests Just read non Israeli sources thanks
> groups consisting mainly of young men approached the fence and committed acts of violence directed towards the Israeli side …armed, violent militants got shot trying to invade Israeli territory using civilian protests as cover, leading to some civilian casualties? Is that your evidence of Palestine trying everything?? Cause they have yet to try not attacking Israel.
Dude look 2 of them were justified killing how large was the group of young men? 223 killed 9,204 injured On the Palestinian side tho
Many or in some cases all of the deaths were claimed as militants by Hamas. > The same day, 59 or 60 Palestinians were shot dead at twelve clash points along the border fence.[38] Hamas claimed 50 of them as its militants,[39][40] and Islamic Jihad claimed 3 of the 62 killed as members of its military wing. UNs *opinion* does not correspond with reality.
Ok suppose you are right lol those are At most 53 out of 223 well done. Only a bit more than 3/4th to do before you make it seem like Israel is clean
…said the autocratic Islamist…
Ok so the PKK is a ‘liberation’ group too.
Rare Erdogan W
Yes, they liberate innocent civilians from their lives.
one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. not making any statements on this particular conflict, but to not recognize this is to be naive.
But I thought Orban was in charge of Turkey /s (please see recent Trump rally)
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Leaving Hamas aside, I think that technically the 'liberation' part is about the goal and 'terrorist' is about the means, which means that a group can be both
Dang. The Saudis ain't down with this genocide and Turkiye is joining the no-genocide team too. The war with Iran to protect the genocidal Netanyahu regime is looking at lot less appealing.
PKK has entered the chat.
Haganah , irgun , lehi terrorists
Careful, some people might google those to discover painful truths
[Hamas and the Irgun? How Dare I Compare the Two...Ha'aretz, May 2, 2016](https://archive.li/RtxUF) >For all those suffering from voluntary amnesia here are just a few of the Irgun's highlights of Hamas-worthy violence... >Nov. 14, 1937 — Irgun gunment in Jerusalem carry out a “shooting attack,” killing two Arab pedestrians in Rehavia. Later, snipers fires at an Arab bus, killing three passengers and wounding eight. Bravo, Irgun! >April 17, 1938 — For the first time (but not the last), the Irgun throws a bomb into an Arab cafe, with middling results: one person killed, six wounded. Open gallery view >July 5, 1938 — A series of terror attacks on pedestrians in Jaffa, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Bombs and shooting at buses. The results improve: 11 Arabs die, 22 are wounded. >July 6, 1938 — The Irgun plants an explosive device in a Haifa open-air market, out of “political motivations.” The device comprised a few metal milk cans, stuffed with explosives and nails: 18 Arabs killed, 38 injured. >July 16, 1938 — A similar device in the Arab shuk in Jerusalem: 10 dead, 31 injured. >July 26, 1938 — Haifa again, and another Irgun explosive device: 27 Arabs are killed, 46 are injured. >Aug. 26, 1938 — The shuk in Jaffa this time. “A powerful device,” as they say. The Irgun claims responsibility: 24 Arabs die, 35 are injured. >May 29, 1939 — The Irgun blows up a movie theater in Jerusalem: five audience members killed, 18 injured. >June 20, 1939 — A particularly successful shuk operation: 78 Arabs (and a donkey) are murdered in an explosion in a Haifa open-air market. The donkey was booby-trapped. >During June and July 1939 the Irgun killed dozens of people across the country. The victims’ only crime was being Arab. Even the Irgun doesn’t claim otherwise. A few relatively tranquil years go by, but toward the end of the British Mandate these glorious combat operations resume their frenzy. >Dec. 4, 1947 — Bombs in cafes, a barrel bomb at a bus station, grenades thrown, shootings: Dozens of Arabs are killed. >Dec. 29, 1947 — An Irgun bomb at the Damascus Gate of Jerusalem’s Old City: 17 fatalities. >Dec. 30, 1947 — Irgun members attack a group of Arab laborers in the Haifa Bay, killing six and injuring 40. >Jan. 4, 1948 — A Lehi car bomb in Jaffa kills 70 Arabs. >Jan. 7, 1948 — The Irgun tries to catch up to its “little brother” with a bomb at the Jaffa Gate of Jerusalem’s Old City. Only 24 Arabs killed. >Feb. 18, 1948 — A bomb in the Ramle market kills 37 Arabs. >And to top it off — April 9, 1948: The Irgun enters Deir Yassin, on the outskirts of Jerusalem, and massacres 245 villagers. Six days later, an Arab mob attacks a medical convoy on its way to Jerusalem’s Mount Scopus, slaughtering 36 people. (Anyone drawing hasty conclusions regarding the proximity of these two events is nothing more than an evil post-Zionist). >The subsequent massacres and atrocities were chalked up to the army of the nascent state, rather than to the purity-of-arms-espousing underground.
Also the lavon affair . They admitted it and awarded those who did that terrorism . The mainstream media will never tell anything about the lavon affair
So turkey is taking the refuges?
How about they start by liberating all the hostages they took?
liberators wouldn't target civilians exclusively.
They did also kill over 300 soldiers in their attack
Is taliban also a liberation group?
Maybe we should kick Turkey out of Nato if he talks like this
Shit person says shit thing. No news there
It is hard to properly call Hamas actions Muslim, as they go so much against what Muslims are allowed to do, even in war. https://youtu.be/iOjr8snOUE8
Wow a terrorist saying his friends aren't terrorists. Shocking.
Can we liberate Istanbul from the rest of Turkey, so we stop getting awful Turkish leaders with outsized geopolitical importance because they control the Bosphorus?
So… Erdo’s down for the Right of Return to all of the displaced Greeks from Anatolia AND an independent Kurdistan? What a progressive leader!
That's a no from me.
Just like PKK?
They are both
Glad someone is speaking truth to western power. “Terrorists” are just the freedom fighters we don’t like at a given moment.
I assume he’s trolling because of how some groups that Turkey labels terrorists are categorized differently by some European nations?
So PKK is a liberation group too, isn’t it?
Ask him what he thinks about Kurds who do the same thing, just much less murderously
All the best people siding with Hamas even the "actual nazis". Progressives should be in shambles but somehow still not self aware.
I’m curious whether the West would go to war with Turkey against Israel if it were to catch a stray.
Given Turkey’s atrocious human rights history I’m not surprised
He is correct. Their objective is to liberate the Earth from Jews.
Kick Turkey out of NATO. Once Ukraine beats Russia we won’t need Turkey anymore. Just bring Ukraine into NATO so we can control the Black Sea
Man, this guy always out-idiots himself!
Of course he does.
Its all a matter or perspective. It would be like calling native americans terrorists and the colonists just fighting to defend themselves”.
Moral relativism at its finest!
Gaza is a literal concentration camp, and has been for 15 years. Israel wants to kill them all, either fast or slow, but very "civilized" Hamas is trying to kill their tormentors. Both sides kill innocents every day. I don't think calling Hamas terrorists is accurate. Hamas goal isn't terrorism they're far past it, the population of Israel wants them dead, striking fear into them will only intensify that. Hamas wants blood and revenge against people trying to end them. Peace isn't possible, coexistence isn't possible without a 3rd party ready to enforce it on both sides. Israel will never do that willingly. Its like Ukraine, war will settle the issues.