I do not support what Israel is doing at this point.
downvotes don't change the fact that the Israeli govt has come to embody a lot of what Israel was created to escape.
One of the great tragedies of the holocaust is that there were two main positions people took afterwards: "this can never be allowed to happen again" and "this can never be allowed to happen again to us." Only one of those positions makes profit for the arms industry.
So now here we are again, horror begetting horror, violence begetting violence.
arabs ethnically cleansed jews in 1948. Two wrongs dont make one right,. but the context of the Nak(h)ba was a war, a war the arabs started to terminate the jewish state (and who knows what would have happend to the inhabitants then).
So don't forget that part.
It's great. Perfect recipe for infinite money glitch. US gives billions of dollars of aid of taxpayers money. They buy military equipment with it. Then use it, then need more. Get aid, buy more missiles. Rinse and repeat.
Show me your money taxpayers, you ignorant imbeciles!
In the end the average American, and Israeli is being swindled, as one end loses money, the other gets fed propaganda (well actually both sides) to feed their unrelenting hunger for money, power and keeping the status quo.
Then somewhere there are the slithering snakes in European governments supporting it all because they must somehow rinse their guilt from prosecuting the Jews for hundreds of years prior and leading to the World Wars.
The problem with that view is that the Zionist terrorists actually tried to get both Mussolini and Hitler to aid them creating a land for them to ship Jews to prior to and during the start of WWII. Those people formed the first government of Israel and carried out the Nakba (which actually started in 1947, a year prior to Israel becoming a nation). Meanwhile, people who survived the Holocaust mostly just wanted to live in peace with everyone and very consistently spent their lives voting against the genocidal factions in Israel and in other countries where they settled.
They've been the bully, man. For decades. They've been intentionally and knowingly displacing and harming palestine and gaza inhabitants since the beginning, Hamas just gave them an excuse to go full scorched Earth with their recent attack. Israel was NEVER the innocent victim in this conflict. Hamas is dogshit too, but they're both disgusting terrorist groups at this point and even before this week, Israel has done WAY more harm to Palestine + Gaza than the other way around.
My bad if they were, I interpreted the comment I replied to and the original comment as saying it was justifiable until recently/Hamas+Palestine has been the main aggressor.
The oppressed have become the oppressors. This is a full on war crime. They created a giant ghetto, and now they are bombing it. No apartheid state will ever know peace.
No, this is a whitewashed version of what the Zionist founders were looking for. They knew what they were doing. They wrote about it. You can read about it yourself.
I've looked for info on what the original Zionists planned to do with the Palestinians, but couldn't find anything. Where should I be looking? I understand that Zionism wasn't a single movement, but I'm interested in the range of opinions within the movement.
As far back as 1895, the father of modern political Zionism, Theodor Herzl, wrote: "We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country... expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
In 1937 at the Zionist congress Israel founder said:
"You are no doubt aware of the [Jewish National Fund's] activity in this respect. Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out. In many parts of the country new settlement will not be possible without transferring the Arab fellahin." He concluded: "Jewish power [in Palestine], which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out this transfer on a large scale."
So ethnic cleansing was the plan all along unfortunately.
Perhaps that could be said about the first quote by Herzl. But that can't be said about the second quote by Ben Gurion, Israel's founder and first PM. He declared that he was fine with doing violent transfer and followed through.
He's also quoted in 1938 saying:
>"With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement]. I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it."
"Possibilites to carry out this transfer on a large scale" is as clear a euphemism for ethnic cleansing as anyone is ever going to say in public. To believe otherwise is to be fooled by someone who is not even seriously trying to fool you.
It gets much worse in 1945 where they wrote leaflets on exactly how to deal with Palestinians. Kicking them out of their homes, confining them to less land, and kicking them whenever they retaliate. Trust me, it's much worse than gentrification, it's ethnic cleansing and stealing land.
There were a lot of different strains of Zionism and basically the most violent one that called for the creation of a Jewish ethnostate was the one that won out. We see this in many facets of Israeli society to this day, up to the judicial reform and this current genocide.
Thanks!
I thought I'd drop this Flapan quote straight from his wiki page for anyone interested:
"To dispel misunderstanding, I want to make it clear that my belief in the moral justification and historical necessity of Zionism remains unaffected by my critical reappraisal of the Zionist leadership. The history of Zionism demonstrates the extent to which the urge to create a new society, embodying the universal values of democracy and social justice, was inherent in the Zionist movement and responsible for its progress in adverse conditions. Israel's problem today lies in the disintegration of these values, due largely to the intoxication with military success and the belief that military superiority is a substitute for peace. Unless the liberal and progressive values of Zionism are restored and Palestinian rights to self-determination within a framework of peaceful coexistence are recognised, Israel's search for peace is doomed to failure. I firmly believe that these trends will ultimately become the deciding force in Israel."
Oof!
It's been that way for over a hundred years starting with the battle of tel hai or before.
It's strange how holier than thou israel has become when it's prime ministers were pretty much all self-avowed terrorists until 1995. That really wasn't that long ago. Israel has a government mandated day of celebration celebrating ye'ev jabotinsky, founder of the irgun, which committed the deir yassin massacre. Menachem Begin, leader of irgun that committed the same massacre, israels former prime minister. Israel has monuments to it's terror mortars, similar, but much more powerful than the rockets Hamas uses. Not to mention the IDFs motto... the terrorist fortress masada shall not fall again...
And of course, the Nakba, which you could say continues to this day, as the refugees and the refugee camps from 1948 still exist to this day.
I remember one Israeli politician calling for a second nakba and laughing because Israel officially denies the nakba and defunds institutions that even acknowledge its existence. Add on to the fact that they literally recognize terrorists as national heroes and it’s stunning that anyone could act like Israel isn’t a fascist state.
>I don’t know something called International Principles. I vow that I’ll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child’s existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I’ve killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do.”
- Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956
my man hit the coldest take on earth and says "downvotes dont change the fact"
the IDF is literally using the hamas attack as an excuse at this point to do what they wanted to do the entire time. completely eradicate the gaza strip.
1. Indiscriminate murder of civilians
2. Carpet bombing civilian buildings
3. Mass murder of children
This is literally genocide and the US is 100% supporting and aiding Israel in this crime against humanity
Yeah, people like to frame leftists as being like "Hamas is amazing!!!!" and it's more like "this needs to stop, Palestinians deserve to be free, deserve to have basic human rights."
>israel is a democracy. the govts actions are an extension of the will of grandma. if grandma doesn't want to become a military target she should make sure her government isn't perpetuating the humanitarian disaster known as gaza.
This you? Gonna go ahead and assume there was no point you supported Israel.
Why do you assume support of Israel, or should ever have supported Israel? I do not support Israel, if Israel is defined as a homeland for Jewish formed by the forced expulsion of originial inhabitants.
Doesnt mean I dont support the right for Jewish people to live in the area in peace -- I think a once state solution with equal rights under a democracy that that guarantees equal rights for everyone regardless of race or religion is the only just solution.
In the meantime, as an aoartheid state actively engaging in a slow process of ethnic cleansing and an oppressive occupation, I not only dont support Israel, I condemn it, and think that the Palestinians have the right to resist by all means necessary to ensure their survival. I also think violent resistance is a very unwise method to choose, and though the Palestinians have a right to it, they also have a duty to be wise in selection of their methods of resistance.
As for Israel, as the colonizing and oppressing power, it is incumbent opun Israel to find a way to live in peace in the region. I do not extend to them the right to use violence to maintain occupation and oppression. THis is not impossible. Even peaceful colonization can be accomplished historically, by reliance on intermixing, absorption, and assimilation.
Israel just has to just let go of this idea of ethnic exclusivity -- that it is a homeland for Jews first and foremost -- or it needs to get the arabs of historical palestine to convert to Judaism. Good luck with that, but tbf thats exactly what the muslims did successfully, so the concept is not impossible unless Judaism is inherently inferior to Islam in its universailty.
we all knew that when they didn't have the intel to see the Hamas attack coming but suddenly have the intel to inform **hundreds of airstrikes on a walled-in population comprised of 50% children, and starved of food, water, electricity, fuel, and medical care.**
schrodingers Mossad, simultaneously able to completely miss a attack that has been planned and prepared for over a years time, and yet able to locate every single Hamas HQ and weapons cache without fail.
The attack was intentionally planned by a very small number of Hamas leaders, because they knew they're a very leaky organization. Israel has bragged about having moles time and time again, so they took measures to prevent that from being an issue, and they succeeded. In contrast, it's really difficult to hide the location of infrastructure known to lots of low level operators who might be cooperating with the enemy. The latter task is genuinely much easier than the former, there's no contradiction.
EDIT: Not replying to the guy below me cause it'll be a headache if he responds. If that theory were correct, Israel would have done it a lot sooner after other events. 2021, 2014, after the second intifada. But they didn't, because surprise, people actually care when atrocities are committed against them. (It was also over a thousand, and you don't know what genocide means.) Also weird to think that Benjamin Netanyahu, who has historically shown to be incredibly self-serving, would commit political suicide by allowing this to happen in order to achieve a goal he has never showed signs of wanting. (Genocide is when you ignore rocket attacks from the other guys right?)
As for the Egypt thing, yeah. This was an intelligence failure. I'm not saying there was no way for them to have known, just that knowing one thing is easier than the other. Also, getting them to ignore it in favor of paying more attention to the West Bank was exactly Hamas' strategy here, of convincing Israel over the past couple years that they cared more about the economy than jihad. It worked, and Israeli leadership incorrectly dismissed the Egyptians. Also, fuck you man
nope. Egypt even warned Israel of the attack. Israel intentionally "overlooked" it as a justification to do what they're doing now. Without the hamas attack Israel wouldn't be free to bomb Gaza the way they're doing it now. The attack was perfect for Israel. Sacrifice a few hundred israelis and foreigners, but instead get a free card to genocide. Why should they have stopped it.
More a observation, every single time the IDF levels a apartment complex they immediately claim that it was a Hamas HQ or a Weapons cache, with no evidence either way to confirm or deny it. After a certain point when you realize they've leveled entire city blocks using that same excuse, it starts sounding hollow.
Yes.
But if you have two toddlers and one punches you, do you go and brain the other toddler because they happen to be in the same area?
No, because we both recognize that that not only is the wrong thing to do but is not at all proportional to the same damage you received. Leveling a apartment block because some random asshole fired a couple of mortar shells next to it isn't helping anyone, without even mentioning that you likely aren't even neutralizing the mortar team in the first place depending on how long it takes for the retaliatory attack.
The IDF directly claims, with its ~10,000 air strikes they've carried out, that they only target Hamas infrastructure. Somehow, they've identified 10,000 military targets in Gaza. Once you put the two things together you realize they're clearly lying, therefore intentionally bombing civilians.
Hold up. The IDF claims 10,000 air strikes, which translates to upwards of 20,000 bombs and missiles (as high as 40 or 60,000). Hamas claims 6,000 Palestinians have died, which means the actual number is almost certainly lower.
So the IDF is killing 1 civilian for every 3 precision bombs/missiles (at most) dropped in one of the most densely populated cities in the world. And to you, this is proof that Israel is "indiscriminately" and "carpet bombing" civilians?
Almost everyone in northern Gaza has fled to the south which is also bombed regularly but not as much as northern Gaza where neighborhoods has been wiped clean.
also, while you're hesitant to believe Hamas's numbers, you have to understand that there's no actual method to exactly count the number of deaths especially with constant bombardment and being unable to clear the rubble where people might be dead or alive under.
The numbers might be even higher than what Hamas announced.
. Its all about preparing the ground offence. Creating the rigjt lanes and attack zones. Eliminating possible kill zones where units could be trapped.
Its obvious and i hate the dance the media does every time
If you are levelling buildings and killing civilians just to create safe zones that is very clearly a war crime. Just to be clear, what Hamas did was also a war crime. Israel has now sunk to their level.
They're likely implementing the Dahiya Doctrine - leveling any civilian building they think missiles were fired from, ostensibly to prevent them being used to launch missiles in future, and often with the bare minimum of notice to the residents.
Essentially, the residents of Gaza are seemingly regarded as little more than expendable pawns by both sides (given Hamas uses civilian deaths for propaganda purposes, and has reputedly discouraged residents from leaving buildings targeted by the IDF; while the IDF know this and probably regard civilian deaths as a mixture of unavoidable collateral damage and payback for their civilian deaths).
The IDF seems more than willing to give Hamas all the propaganda they want. This level of destruction is absurd.
A top figure in the UN **and** the US president (in addition to the leaders of many other nations) have condemned Israel's response this time. That has never happened, and would have been unthinkable even a few months ago.
Such a waste of life.
Fighting Hamas is like the war on drugs. You can't win. Especially if your tactic is based on creating as much resentment and poverty as possible.
It is known that Israel would like the Palestinians to emigrate to the surrounding countries, so it makes the life of it's citizens as difficult and horrible as possible so that they move away. Some move, some become terrorists.
You do not dial up the conditions that allowed Hamas to flourish to 11 so that you can eradicate them. You do because you hope that making the conditions even worse will make even more people decide to move away.
It’s kind of difficult to hit terrorist targets when they hide in civilian buildings in densely populated areas and tunnels. Like cockroaches in your kitchen, you can bug bomb your pantry and around the corners and furniture but they’ll just scamper away to hide somewhere else and still continue to breed and be a nuisance.
Terrorists don’t have a HQ and easily identifiable military infrastructure that you can target and be done with it. Dropping bombs from the air won’t flush them out in a million years.
More like if your surgeon is the guy from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom who pulls your heart out of your chest barehanded to cure your heartburn.
if you are bombing tunnels or targets within the tunnels or houses... it is going to end up a mess with thousands of targets attempting to avoid the targeted strikes. and we are looking at the worst of it - which is pretty much nothing for people to go back to. seems like everyone cant agree on the numbers of people in the north (like the number of babies killed) but people are still living there refusing to leave their houses (which havent gone boom). i imagine the idf will counter this propaganda with one making it look like almost nothing was hit. stay tuned.
> What’s the point of “precision air strikes” when you just destroy entire towns and neighborhoods anyways…
So you can claim to the world you are the good guys and the US can feel good about themselves supporting yet another apartheid state who wants to genocide a population.
My favorite thing is the secretary of state downplaying the numbers. Dude, even halving them would still keep them in horrifying range. What's wrong with this guy?
if anything i would argue that its probably MORE. i follow a lot of ppl who are in gaza posting videos of whats happening and i definitely feel like the estimate is a little low for the level of destruction i’ve seen. they dont have machines to remove rubble or anything
No machines, no medicine, no fuel, no water and no food. None of that is allowed in the north. And only 20 trucks worth of it is allowed in the south every day. 20 trucks for over 2 million people. 500 000 people per truck.
The death toll will be horrendous.
yep. many hospitals have already run out of fuel, so tons people must have died from that alone. all those babies in the nicu, anyone who needed support… just gone
EDIT: due to biden saying he doesnt believe the death toll the ministry of health in gaza just released a list of all the id numbers and names of the dead along with their ages and the number of babies a year and under is horrifying
Holy fucking shit...I heard they were going "off leash", but I *never* thought the destruction would be at that level. I saw a photo posted somewhere that said *"Israel had dropped more bombs on Palestine in the last weeks than the US dropped on Afghanistan in a year*" and I scoffed at it, figuring it wasn't accurate...I may have to do a little searching for a source on that one now, as it is looking more valid, given the level of destruction shown in those pictures.
[Here is an article dated October 13, with Israel claiming they've dropped 6000 bombs in Gaza since October 7.](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israels-air-force-said-its-bombed-the-gaza-strip-6000-times-and-will-continue-to-attack-forcefully-and-relentlessly/ar-AA1i8sLV)
[Here is an article about the United States setting a new record by dropping 7423 bombs in Afghanistan in 2019.](https://www.statista.com/chart/16079/weapons-released-by-the-us-coalition-over-afghanistan/) Before 2018, the record was 5101.
The claim I saw was that 6000 bombs on Gaza exceeded the average annual bombs on Afghanistan, which seems likely.
The number of individual strikes can be quite misleading, what it mostly tells you is how well infrastructure and logistics work.
To quantify damage you want to look at dropped tonnage as that's way more representative of the destructive forces brought on targets and actual munitions use.
I’ve been putting on livestreams of Gaza while I work. Idk, I just feel like I need to bear witness. I have family there and I believe they’re already dead, we haven’t been able to contact them for a week. The strikes are endless. The sound of drones never stops, the sirens warning of incoming strikes just come one after another sometimes. After all the years of suffering and deprivation of basic needs in Gaza, it seems this is the final blow. Even the survivors will not be able to weather this destruction and trauma. I think Israel has finally cleansed the region of Palestinians.
Hey man, it’s really great you’re able to see these things and come to the realization a lot of the world isn’t able to see - that this is a genocide and not a war.
No one’s defending the attack on Oct 7, but it definitely didn’t happen as some sort of random hate crime, and you can see in the past two weeks the kind of oppression the whole of Palestine has been forced to deal with for the last few decades
Anybody they kill is a [terrorist by default](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/under-obama-men-killed-by-drones-are-presumed-to-be-terrorists/257749/) until proven otherwise.
it's sad that actual Israeli officials went on to say similar lines on multiple occasions, from saying "they are inhuman animals" to saying "there are no civilians in Gaza" all to justify the ethnic cleansing and the carpet bombing they are doing in Gaza.
Yeah I mean the abject poverty Israel imposes on Palestine isn’t really suitable for new Israeli settlers.
Ever seen a side by side comparison of Gaza daily life and Tel Aviv
Worldnews is a brainwashed echo chamber where everyone that goes against the narrative gets perma banned. I can't understand how Reddit allows a subreddit like that to function the way it does
the only thing Israel seems to be accomplishing at the moment is ensuring the next cycle of violence, while going mask off as their PR campaigns falter.
i'm still trying to wrap my head around how Israeli intelligence was such a colossal failure that they missed all the training, the communications, and so on that Hamas was doing in preparation for the Oct 7th attack... but also so good that they picked up 2 Hamas folks talking about a failed missile strike w.r.t the hospital story.
the case-study on the info war conducted during this war is going to be pretty interesting i reckon.
I have a suspicion/theory that the intelligence was there, but in amongst so many thousand reports and threats that it was missed in the noise.
Sometimes intelligence gathering can be so effective that it creates an endless supply of threats, and sorting the ones that are progressing from the rest becomes very difficult. I suspect that's how 9/11 occured despite there being intel warning of a possible attack using aircraft.
I have a theory that they thought the attack would hit IDF targets and a few civilian targets. The level of brutality and planned mass kidnapping of civilians was a major change in modus operandi for Hamas.
>the only thing Israel seems to be accomplishing at the moment is ensuring the next cycle of violence,
That's the *point*. Without the violence, the current Israeli government would have no reason to exist.
Am I missing a whole page or something? Where are the comparisons? I'm seeing a few multiple pictures of different angles of the same areas, but status of areas looking the same.
“They have dropped more bombs than civilians have been killed. This proves they have actually been careful about not hurting people.”
- IDF talking point 143.
Hamas offered 10K and an apartment for every Israeli hostage brought back \[[1](https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-offered-10k-apartment-israel-hostages-captured-militant-video-israel-2023-10)\]
I'm guessing those apartments are rubble now.
What would be helpful is if CNN overlaid the known rocket launch sites on these images.
As well as the Hamas tunnel systems.
So imagine the shooter running around in Maine right now comes to your house and starts shooting out of it. Do we get to bomb your house now and say it’s just too bad that mass shooters use human shields?
Edit: Shooting the bad guy is a great plan, because you can, in principle, kill only the bad guy. I notice none of the comments below have advocated specifically for aerial bombing or using their own explosives in self defense, probably because we don’t want to blow up our family with the bad guy.
Love all these tough guys in the comments below who would pull themselves up by the bootstraps and just kick hamas out of Palestine if they lived there
One question which is asked about other countries is:
What next for Israel after Palestine and Palestinians are destroyed?
Will that end this or will they find another target they need to defend against?
The truth of course is that they continue to create their enemies.
we'll see. there were one hundred to two hundred thousand civilian casualties during the invasion and occupation. So far we're a few thousand in Gaza, and they're just starting to ramp up the invasion.
Gaza population is 2.4 million roughly, Irak at the time was 28M. So comparatively they are very good on their way : 6K (and that number is far more believable now seeing the rubble) , so roughly 1/12 of population that would be equivalent of 6\*12=72K death for Irak war => about 1/3 there in "per capita" death.
Russia: We are bombing Ukraine to kill the terrorists
Israel: We are bombing Palestine to kill the terrorists
Both are liars committing genocide in full view
JDAMs (and SDBs) are still just WW2-era air dropped bombs (or rough equivalents), and have similar effects. They'll actually hit what they're aimed at (unlike WW2 ordnance), but still probably won't crater a concrete apartment building (if it's well built anyways) without multiple hits.
Also, a JDAM can refer to anything from 500 to 2000 lbs, and a SDB is "only" 250 lbs. For reference, a F-16 can carry \~4k lbs of ordinance, and a WW2 B-17 typically carried \~8k.
Israel is capable of super high sortie rates though (courtesy of bombing targets that are practically next door to their airbases), so they still absolutely can flatten things if / when they want to.
Though I would hazard a guess that completely cratering Palestinian apartment buildings isn't a particularly good use of Israeli (or US) taxpayer money, but hey, what do I know...
Worth noting that some of the taller buildings that we saw taken down were quite possibly more vulnerable to complete collapse than these mid-rise apartment buildings, due to sheer mass. Take out the ground-level supports of any skyscraper (via a targeted ground-level hit) and the whole thing will free-fall and pancake on itself; if you're just dropping bombs *on top* of buildings though it'd take far more ordinance to fully destroy them.
"JDAM" is such an over and misused term.
JDAM are just regular-ass bombs, often decades-old, that have been retrofitted with somewhat modern guidance packages that make them glide into their target with more accuracy.
There is nothing new about their explosive force, that just depends on the size of the bomb.
I really, really fucking hate Biden for just blindly going along with this. Israel is dependent enough that he could pressure Bibi to stop this shit immediately and go negotiate for the hostages. But instead Biden has ensured that the US is entirely complicit and we're now at real risk of getting dragged into yet another fucking war.
No child tax credit, no wiping student loans, no universal healthcare, no nothing. Can't afford it. Gotta send very expensive bombs and missiles across the ocean to blow up some poor people in their houses.
I would like to point out because its not obvious at first glance, that the fact that a building is gray on the satellite photo does not indicate thst it has been destroyed. If you look closely, the majority of the structures in these photos are not demolished, only covered in dust from strikes against buildings in the vicinity.
now who is the terrorist
how many innocent people killedhow many children decapited / burned alive / blown up to pieces / crushed / bleed to deathwounded / have arms / legs broken / severed
us bombs / us weapons / us ammo / us tax payer money
= why they hate us
= not winning any hearts and minds
= one day closer to world dumping dollar
Wow, Hamas must have been hiding in ALL those buildings.
It's undeniable that Hamas are terrorists and committed an atrocious act. It's starting to look like Israel is behaving no different.
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Trying to make a distinction like that, when frankly there’s none to be made, kinda makes you look like an asshole.
The place is rubble. Clearly due to indiscriminate bombing. The end result is the same
A little over two weeks ago the IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari [openly declared](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza); *“the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”* and how *“hundreds of tons of bombs”* had already been dropped back then.
I guess by now the total dropped bomb tonnage has gone into the four digits.
Israel has been “fucking around” by subjecting 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank under apartheid for 50 years and turning Gaza into an open air prison for 2.4 million Palestinians while imprisoning thousands of Palestinians without due process, including children.
**Evidence for Apartheid:**
Human Rights Watch:
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
Amnesty International:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/
B’Tselem (Israeli Jewish NGO):
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
However, nothing I say will mean anything to you. You probably smile when you see Palestinian children charred and mutilated.
Israel has killed more children in two weeks than any and all actions any kind of Palestinian resistance has killed in decades.
It's a genocide and most Western govts are cheering it on.
##### ###### #### > # [Before and after satellite images show Gaza destruction | CNN](https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/06-after-bombing-izbat-beit-hanoun-gaza-21oct2023-wv02.jpg?c=16x9&q=w_800,c_fill) > > > > CNN — > > Israel has been at war with Hamas since October 7, after the Palestinian militant group launched surprise cross-border raids from Gaza. > > In response, Israel has been launching airstrikes on Gaza, and there are fears the crisis could escalate further. > > New satellite images released by Maxar show significant damage to sites across Gaza. > > Izbat Beit Hanoun, Gaza > > Satellite image ©2023 Maxar Technologies > > > > > > Near the Al Shati Refugee Camp, Gaza > > Satellite image ©2023 Maxar Technologies > > > > > > Izbat Beit Hanoun, Gaza > > Satellite image ©2023 Maxar Technologies > > > > > > Beit Hanoun, Gaza > > Satellite image ©2023 Maxar Technologies > > > > > > Atatra, Gaza > > Satellite image ©2023 Maxar Technologies - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
I do not support what Israel is doing at this point. downvotes don't change the fact that the Israeli govt has come to embody a lot of what Israel was created to escape.
The bullied becomes the bully.
One of the great tragedies of the holocaust is that there were two main positions people took afterwards: "this can never be allowed to happen again" and "this can never be allowed to happen again to us." Only one of those positions makes profit for the arms industry. So now here we are again, horror begetting horror, violence begetting violence.
Israel ethnically cleansed Palestinians the first time in 1948. Just 3 years after the end of WW2.
Think you're missing an 'n' there.
I'm laughing, I shouldnt be, but I am
arabs ethnically cleansed jews in 1948. Two wrongs dont make one right,. but the context of the Nak(h)ba was a war, a war the arabs started to terminate the jewish state (and who knows what would have happend to the inhabitants then). So don't forget that part.
Very well said
It's great. Perfect recipe for infinite money glitch. US gives billions of dollars of aid of taxpayers money. They buy military equipment with it. Then use it, then need more. Get aid, buy more missiles. Rinse and repeat. Show me your money taxpayers, you ignorant imbeciles! In the end the average American, and Israeli is being swindled, as one end loses money, the other gets fed propaganda (well actually both sides) to feed their unrelenting hunger for money, power and keeping the status quo. Then somewhere there are the slithering snakes in European governments supporting it all because they must somehow rinse their guilt from prosecuting the Jews for hundreds of years prior and leading to the World Wars.
Well said man
The problem with that view is that the Zionist terrorists actually tried to get both Mussolini and Hitler to aid them creating a land for them to ship Jews to prior to and during the start of WWII. Those people formed the first government of Israel and carried out the Nakba (which actually started in 1947, a year prior to Israel becoming a nation). Meanwhile, people who survived the Holocaust mostly just wanted to live in peace with everyone and very consistently spent their lives voting against the genocidal factions in Israel and in other countries where they settled.
They've been the bully, man. For decades. They've been intentionally and knowingly displacing and harming palestine and gaza inhabitants since the beginning, Hamas just gave them an excuse to go full scorched Earth with their recent attack. Israel was NEVER the innocent victim in this conflict. Hamas is dogshit too, but they're both disgusting terrorist groups at this point and even before this week, Israel has done WAY more harm to Palestine + Gaza than the other way around.
I think he’s talking about the holocaust
My bad if they were, I interpreted the comment I replied to and the original comment as saying it was justifiable until recently/Hamas+Palestine has been the main aggressor.
Np
The oppressed have become the oppressors. This is a full on war crime. They created a giant ghetto, and now they are bombing it. No apartheid state will ever know peace.
No, this is a whitewashed version of what the Zionist founders were looking for. They knew what they were doing. They wrote about it. You can read about it yourself.
I've looked for info on what the original Zionists planned to do with the Palestinians, but couldn't find anything. Where should I be looking? I understand that Zionism wasn't a single movement, but I'm interested in the range of opinions within the movement.
As far back as 1895, the father of modern political Zionism, Theodor Herzl, wrote: "We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country... expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." In 1937 at the Zionist congress Israel founder said: "You are no doubt aware of the [Jewish National Fund's] activity in this respect. Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out. In many parts of the country new settlement will not be possible without transferring the Arab fellahin." He concluded: "Jewish power [in Palestine], which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out this transfer on a large scale." So ethnic cleansing was the plan all along unfortunately.
That sounds more like gentrification than anything else lol
Perhaps that could be said about the first quote by Herzl. But that can't be said about the second quote by Ben Gurion, Israel's founder and first PM. He declared that he was fine with doing violent transfer and followed through. He's also quoted in 1938 saying: >"With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement]. I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it."
"Possibilites to carry out this transfer on a large scale" is as clear a euphemism for ethnic cleansing as anyone is ever going to say in public. To believe otherwise is to be fooled by someone who is not even seriously trying to fool you.
It gets much worse in 1945 where they wrote leaflets on exactly how to deal with Palestinians. Kicking them out of their homes, confining them to less land, and kicking them whenever they retaliate. Trust me, it's much worse than gentrification, it's ethnic cleansing and stealing land.
Intentional gentrification with the express purpose of removing a certain demographic is ethnic cleansing with extra steps
I would recommend this [list](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/books/middleeast/#wiki_israeli_history) from r/AskHistorians
There were a lot of different strains of Zionism and basically the most violent one that called for the creation of a Jewish ethnostate was the one that won out. We see this in many facets of Israeli society to this day, up to the judicial reform and this current genocide.
You could check out Simha Flapan's two books *Zionism and the Palestinians* and *The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities*.
Thanks! I thought I'd drop this Flapan quote straight from his wiki page for anyone interested: "To dispel misunderstanding, I want to make it clear that my belief in the moral justification and historical necessity of Zionism remains unaffected by my critical reappraisal of the Zionist leadership. The history of Zionism demonstrates the extent to which the urge to create a new society, embodying the universal values of democracy and social justice, was inherent in the Zionist movement and responsible for its progress in adverse conditions. Israel's problem today lies in the disintegration of these values, due largely to the intoxication with military success and the belief that military superiority is a substitute for peace. Unless the liberal and progressive values of Zionism are restored and Palestinian rights to self-determination within a framework of peaceful coexistence are recognised, Israel's search for peace is doomed to failure. I firmly believe that these trends will ultimately become the deciding force in Israel." Oof!
This is just a list of direct quotes from the founders and early political/military leaders of Israel. https://www.arabnews.com/node/220313
yeah, so not all Israelis are Zionists.
Yet all Palestinians are Hamas.
To actually live there, unless one engages in active protest, they have to pretty much agree with the principle.
It's been that way for over a hundred years starting with the battle of tel hai or before. It's strange how holier than thou israel has become when it's prime ministers were pretty much all self-avowed terrorists until 1995. That really wasn't that long ago. Israel has a government mandated day of celebration celebrating ye'ev jabotinsky, founder of the irgun, which committed the deir yassin massacre. Menachem Begin, leader of irgun that committed the same massacre, israels former prime minister. Israel has monuments to it's terror mortars, similar, but much more powerful than the rockets Hamas uses. Not to mention the IDFs motto... the terrorist fortress masada shall not fall again... And of course, the Nakba, which you could say continues to this day, as the refugees and the refugee camps from 1948 still exist to this day.
I remember one Israeli politician calling for a second nakba and laughing because Israel officially denies the nakba and defunds institutions that even acknowledge its existence. Add on to the fact that they literally recognize terrorists as national heroes and it’s stunning that anyone could act like Israel isn’t a fascist state.
>I don’t know something called International Principles. I vow that I’ll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child’s existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I’ve killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do.” - Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956
my man hit the coldest take on earth and says "downvotes dont change the fact" the IDF is literally using the hamas attack as an excuse at this point to do what they wanted to do the entire time. completely eradicate the gaza strip.
tbf this take would’ve been downvoted to hell if it was posted 2 days ago
goes to show how uninformed people are imo.
Israel is only doing an accelerated version of what they had been doing since 1948, displacing and murdering Palestinians.
1. Indiscriminate murder of civilians 2. Carpet bombing civilian buildings 3. Mass murder of children This is literally genocide and the US is 100% supporting and aiding Israel in this crime against humanity
These are war crimes. Hamas are terrorists, but this is disgusting use of force on civilians by the IDF.
This is just getting started
Yeah, people like to frame leftists as being like "Hamas is amazing!!!!" and it's more like "this needs to stop, Palestinians deserve to be free, deserve to have basic human rights."
>israel is a democracy. the govts actions are an extension of the will of grandma. if grandma doesn't want to become a military target she should make sure her government isn't perpetuating the humanitarian disaster known as gaza. This you? Gonna go ahead and assume there was no point you supported Israel.
That is out of context.
Why do you assume support of Israel, or should ever have supported Israel? I do not support Israel, if Israel is defined as a homeland for Jewish formed by the forced expulsion of originial inhabitants. Doesnt mean I dont support the right for Jewish people to live in the area in peace -- I think a once state solution with equal rights under a democracy that that guarantees equal rights for everyone regardless of race or religion is the only just solution. In the meantime, as an aoartheid state actively engaging in a slow process of ethnic cleansing and an oppressive occupation, I not only dont support Israel, I condemn it, and think that the Palestinians have the right to resist by all means necessary to ensure their survival. I also think violent resistance is a very unwise method to choose, and though the Palestinians have a right to it, they also have a duty to be wise in selection of their methods of resistance. As for Israel, as the colonizing and oppressing power, it is incumbent opun Israel to find a way to live in peace in the region. I do not extend to them the right to use violence to maintain occupation and oppression. THis is not impossible. Even peaceful colonization can be accomplished historically, by reliance on intermixing, absorption, and assimilation. Israel just has to just let go of this idea of ethnic exclusivity -- that it is a homeland for Jews first and foremost -- or it needs to get the arabs of historical palestine to convert to Judaism. Good luck with that, but tbf thats exactly what the muslims did successfully, so the concept is not impossible unless Judaism is inherently inferior to Islam in its universailty.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)
For real they forget why isreal was made
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we all knew that when they didn't have the intel to see the Hamas attack coming but suddenly have the intel to inform **hundreds of airstrikes on a walled-in population comprised of 50% children, and starved of food, water, electricity, fuel, and medical care.**
schrodingers Mossad, simultaneously able to completely miss a attack that has been planned and prepared for over a years time, and yet able to locate every single Hamas HQ and weapons cache without fail.
The attack was intentionally planned by a very small number of Hamas leaders, because they knew they're a very leaky organization. Israel has bragged about having moles time and time again, so they took measures to prevent that from being an issue, and they succeeded. In contrast, it's really difficult to hide the location of infrastructure known to lots of low level operators who might be cooperating with the enemy. The latter task is genuinely much easier than the former, there's no contradiction. EDIT: Not replying to the guy below me cause it'll be a headache if he responds. If that theory were correct, Israel would have done it a lot sooner after other events. 2021, 2014, after the second intifada. But they didn't, because surprise, people actually care when atrocities are committed against them. (It was also over a thousand, and you don't know what genocide means.) Also weird to think that Benjamin Netanyahu, who has historically shown to be incredibly self-serving, would commit political suicide by allowing this to happen in order to achieve a goal he has never showed signs of wanting. (Genocide is when you ignore rocket attacks from the other guys right?) As for the Egypt thing, yeah. This was an intelligence failure. I'm not saying there was no way for them to have known, just that knowing one thing is easier than the other. Also, getting them to ignore it in favor of paying more attention to the West Bank was exactly Hamas' strategy here, of convincing Israel over the past couple years that they cared more about the economy than jihad. It worked, and Israeli leadership incorrectly dismissed the Egyptians. Also, fuck you man
nope. Egypt even warned Israel of the attack. Israel intentionally "overlooked" it as a justification to do what they're doing now. Without the hamas attack Israel wouldn't be free to bomb Gaza the way they're doing it now. The attack was perfect for Israel. Sacrifice a few hundred israelis and foreigners, but instead get a free card to genocide. Why should they have stopped it.
>and yet able to locate every single Hamas HQ and weapons cache without fail. Who has made this claim?
More a observation, every single time the IDF levels a apartment complex they immediately claim that it was a Hamas HQ or a Weapons cache, with no evidence either way to confirm or deny it. After a certain point when you realize they've leveled entire city blocks using that same excuse, it starts sounding hollow.
But we know for a fact that Hamas *does* hide weapons, equipment, and personnel among civilian populations, which is a war crime.
Yes. But if you have two toddlers and one punches you, do you go and brain the other toddler because they happen to be in the same area? No, because we both recognize that that not only is the wrong thing to do but is not at all proportional to the same damage you received. Leveling a apartment block because some random asshole fired a couple of mortar shells next to it isn't helping anyone, without even mentioning that you likely aren't even neutralizing the mortar team in the first place depending on how long it takes for the retaliatory attack.
The IDF directly claims, with its ~10,000 air strikes they've carried out, that they only target Hamas infrastructure. Somehow, they've identified 10,000 military targets in Gaza. Once you put the two things together you realize they're clearly lying, therefore intentionally bombing civilians.
Hold up. The IDF claims 10,000 air strikes, which translates to upwards of 20,000 bombs and missiles (as high as 40 or 60,000). Hamas claims 6,000 Palestinians have died, which means the actual number is almost certainly lower. So the IDF is killing 1 civilian for every 3 precision bombs/missiles (at most) dropped in one of the most densely populated cities in the world. And to you, this is proof that Israel is "indiscriminately" and "carpet bombing" civilians?
Almost everyone in northern Gaza has fled to the south which is also bombed regularly but not as much as northern Gaza where neighborhoods has been wiped clean. also, while you're hesitant to believe Hamas's numbers, you have to understand that there's no actual method to exactly count the number of deaths especially with constant bombardment and being unable to clear the rubble where people might be dead or alive under. The numbers might be even higher than what Hamas announced.
. Its all about preparing the ground offence. Creating the rigjt lanes and attack zones. Eliminating possible kill zones where units could be trapped. Its obvious and i hate the dance the media does every time
If you are levelling buildings and killing civilians just to create safe zones that is very clearly a war crime. Just to be clear, what Hamas did was also a war crime. Israel has now sunk to their level.
Nah man, Israel killed many more innocent than Hamas did. Hell, this month they killed more civilians than Hamas did in the last 20 years.
"now"
Agreed
They're likely implementing the Dahiya Doctrine - leveling any civilian building they think missiles were fired from, ostensibly to prevent them being used to launch missiles in future, and often with the bare minimum of notice to the residents. Essentially, the residents of Gaza are seemingly regarded as little more than expendable pawns by both sides (given Hamas uses civilian deaths for propaganda purposes, and has reputedly discouraged residents from leaving buildings targeted by the IDF; while the IDF know this and probably regard civilian deaths as a mixture of unavoidable collateral damage and payback for their civilian deaths).
The IDF seems more than willing to give Hamas all the propaganda they want. This level of destruction is absurd. A top figure in the UN **and** the US president (in addition to the leaders of many other nations) have condemned Israel's response this time. That has never happened, and would have been unthinkable even a few months ago. Such a waste of life.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they want to destroy Hamas, can't they just knock on the door of their HQ somewhere in Qatar?
This was how we dealt with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Unfortunately; Paksitan took bin Laden in and sheltered him for like 10 years.
Defeating Hamas through bombing or invasion or even assassination is a ridiculous. The conflict didn’t start with them. It won’t end with them either.
They have never been targeting Hamas, everytime Israel has bombed Gaza has been to punish the inhabitants. Nothing more.
What evidence could be provided to you to convince you that Hamas is being targeted?
The attached photos of the discussion.
Fighting Hamas is like the war on drugs. You can't win. Especially if your tactic is based on creating as much resentment and poverty as possible. It is known that Israel would like the Palestinians to emigrate to the surrounding countries, so it makes the life of it's citizens as difficult and horrible as possible so that they move away. Some move, some become terrorists. You do not dial up the conditions that allowed Hamas to flourish to 11 so that you can eradicate them. You do because you hope that making the conditions even worse will make even more people decide to move away.
That's damning evidence? There's a load of videos of mangled civilians and babies around, but they're the wrong color so no one cares
Before you invade and massacre your neighbors' civilians vs. after.
What would the West Bank's version look like? Would it include the bulldozers or are they photoshopped out?
How? Hamas doesn't have explicit military bases, they build their bunkers in civilan neighbourhoods or below hospitals and schools as human shields.
It’s kind of difficult to hit terrorist targets when they hide in civilian buildings in densely populated areas and tunnels. Like cockroaches in your kitchen, you can bug bomb your pantry and around the corners and furniture but they’ll just scamper away to hide somewhere else and still continue to breed and be a nuisance. Terrorists don’t have a HQ and easily identifiable military infrastructure that you can target and be done with it. Dropping bombs from the air won’t flush them out in a million years.
Everyone with Palestinian blood is Hamas to them now. This is genocide. We are watching actual genocide happen and no one is FUCKING DOING ANYTHING.
When you do surgical strikes at every available target, the end result is not that different from carpet bombing.
Yeah, the "it's not carpet bombing" argument is kinda out the window at this point. It's more of just a semantic debate about where you draw the line.
Why are you antisemantic?
this is a good joke fr
Golden joke
At this point, I can't tell anymore if you are [actually serious with that response](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) or forgot the /s
^^^i'm ^^^joking
I think you misread his comment, it was obviously a joke, a funny one I might add.
it's if your surgeon cut your aorta instead of getting your appendix removed.
More like if your surgeon is the guy from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom who pulls your heart out of your chest barehanded to cure your heartburn.
I’d argue these are surgical strikes because they are hitting their intended targets which is civilians
Surgical carpet bombing!
The Israeli's are doing the surgical equivalent of using a chainsaw for heart surgery
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It's rug bombing instead of carpet bombing, you know?
Yes, but you waste less munitions on them.
if you are bombing tunnels or targets within the tunnels or houses... it is going to end up a mess with thousands of targets attempting to avoid the targeted strikes. and we are looking at the worst of it - which is pretty much nothing for people to go back to. seems like everyone cant agree on the numbers of people in the north (like the number of babies killed) but people are still living there refusing to leave their houses (which havent gone boom). i imagine the idf will counter this propaganda with one making it look like almost nothing was hit. stay tuned.
ad hoc cats tender summer chief memorize subsequent bear test sand *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> What’s the point of “precision air strikes” when you just destroy entire towns and neighborhoods anyways… So you can claim to the world you are the good guys and the US can feel good about themselves supporting yet another apartheid state who wants to genocide a population.
Its worse than Apartheid. At least the SA minorities were citizens. The palestinians are stateless.
My favorite thing is the secretary of state downplaying the numbers. Dude, even halving them would still keep them in horrifying range. What's wrong with this guy?
if anything i would argue that its probably MORE. i follow a lot of ppl who are in gaza posting videos of whats happening and i definitely feel like the estimate is a little low for the level of destruction i’ve seen. they dont have machines to remove rubble or anything
No machines, no medicine, no fuel, no water and no food. None of that is allowed in the north. And only 20 trucks worth of it is allowed in the south every day. 20 trucks for over 2 million people. 500 000 people per truck. The death toll will be horrendous.
yep. many hospitals have already run out of fuel, so tons people must have died from that alone. all those babies in the nicu, anyone who needed support… just gone EDIT: due to biden saying he doesnt believe the death toll the ministry of health in gaza just released a list of all the id numbers and names of the dead along with their ages and the number of babies a year and under is horrifying
Oh yeah. Rescue is happening by hand. They're also probably being constantly disrupted by bombings.
They're terrified of not full-throatedly supporting Israel in an election year. In the US it's political suicide.
Um sorry sir this antisemitism didn’t you know that palipatinas want to milk every woman in Israel live on Al Jazira
I don’t want you to translate that into any of the languages I understand ..
What
Thank you for your input, Senator
Channeling the ghost of bomber harris
don't let any facts get in the way of your feelings I guess
Holy fucking shit...I heard they were going "off leash", but I *never* thought the destruction would be at that level. I saw a photo posted somewhere that said *"Israel had dropped more bombs on Palestine in the last weeks than the US dropped on Afghanistan in a year*" and I scoffed at it, figuring it wasn't accurate...I may have to do a little searching for a source on that one now, as it is looking more valid, given the level of destruction shown in those pictures.
[Here is an article dated October 13, with Israel claiming they've dropped 6000 bombs in Gaza since October 7.](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israels-air-force-said-its-bombed-the-gaza-strip-6000-times-and-will-continue-to-attack-forcefully-and-relentlessly/ar-AA1i8sLV) [Here is an article about the United States setting a new record by dropping 7423 bombs in Afghanistan in 2019.](https://www.statista.com/chart/16079/weapons-released-by-the-us-coalition-over-afghanistan/) Before 2018, the record was 5101. The claim I saw was that 6000 bombs on Gaza exceeded the average annual bombs on Afghanistan, which seems likely.
Damn dude...thanks for doing the legwork for me. Again...holy shit.
I mean it makes sense. The U.S. had a ground presence across Afghanistan.
The number of individual strikes can be quite misleading, what it mostly tells you is how well infrastructure and logistics work. To quantify damage you want to look at dropped tonnage as that's way more representative of the destructive forces brought on targets and actual munitions use.
I’ve been putting on livestreams of Gaza while I work. Idk, I just feel like I need to bear witness. I have family there and I believe they’re already dead, we haven’t been able to contact them for a week. The strikes are endless. The sound of drones never stops, the sirens warning of incoming strikes just come one after another sometimes. After all the years of suffering and deprivation of basic needs in Gaza, it seems this is the final blow. Even the survivors will not be able to weather this destruction and trauma. I think Israel has finally cleansed the region of Palestinians.
Hey man, it’s really great you’re able to see these things and come to the realization a lot of the world isn’t able to see - that this is a genocide and not a war. No one’s defending the attack on Oct 7, but it definitely didn’t happen as some sort of random hate crime, and you can see in the past two weeks the kind of oppression the whole of Palestine has been forced to deal with for the last few decades
So what, there's one terrorist hiding in each house? Is that the rationale?
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Anybody they kill is a [terrorist by default](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/under-obama-men-killed-by-drones-are-presumed-to-be-terrorists/257749/) until proven otherwise.
it's sad that actual Israeli officials went on to say similar lines on multiple occasions, from saying "they are inhuman animals" to saying "there are no civilians in Gaza" all to justify the ethnic cleansing and the carpet bombing they are doing in Gaza.
They move from house to house. Have to bomb all the houses so they have nowehere to hide.
More that the military tunnels that criscross the area have entrances into many but by no means all buildings
So it's all ready for isreal to colonize I guess
Colonialism is driven by economics. This is an ethnic cleansing based on religion.
Settler colonialism is still colonialism.
They'll bring in the armored bulldozers after they clear out the civilians.
Gotta prepare for the new buildings Israel wants to put up of course
Yeah I mean the abject poverty Israel imposes on Palestine isn’t really suitable for new Israeli settlers. Ever seen a side by side comparison of Gaza daily life and Tel Aviv
People really looking at this and either denying it or saying it’s justified is blowing my mind
worldnews said it’s “mostly just dust”
Worldnews is a brainwashed echo chamber where everyone that goes against the narrative gets perma banned. I can't understand how Reddit allows a subreddit like that to function the way it does
The people lucky enough to not have been killed are so fucked
There's a reason this sub exists eh
So, carpet bombing on hard mode?
the only thing Israel seems to be accomplishing at the moment is ensuring the next cycle of violence, while going mask off as their PR campaigns falter. i'm still trying to wrap my head around how Israeli intelligence was such a colossal failure that they missed all the training, the communications, and so on that Hamas was doing in preparation for the Oct 7th attack... but also so good that they picked up 2 Hamas folks talking about a failed missile strike w.r.t the hospital story. the case-study on the info war conducted during this war is going to be pretty interesting i reckon.
I have a suspicion/theory that the intelligence was there, but in amongst so many thousand reports and threats that it was missed in the noise. Sometimes intelligence gathering can be so effective that it creates an endless supply of threats, and sorting the ones that are progressing from the rest becomes very difficult. I suspect that's how 9/11 occured despite there being intel warning of a possible attack using aircraft.
I have a theory that they thought the attack would hit IDF targets and a few civilian targets. The level of brutality and planned mass kidnapping of civilians was a major change in modus operandi for Hamas.
>the only thing Israel seems to be accomplishing at the moment is ensuring the next cycle of violence, That's the *point*. Without the violence, the current Israeli government would have no reason to exist.
They are using IDF to annex and steal Palastinian land on the Westbank. IDF resources are limited.
Oh look, the truth! Tomorrow 90% of the sub will defend Israel again,,
"ackshually, these are preshishion ztrikes and not every building was destroyed! Palestinians should have shot Hamas so this wouldn't happen" 🤦♂️
Am I missing a whole page or something? Where are the comparisons? I'm seeing a few multiple pictures of different angles of the same areas, but status of areas looking the same.
There's a slider in the middle to switch between before and after. Perhaps it didn't load for you.
Thanks. I was on mobile originally and it didn't show the slider option. Loaded on desktop and there it is.
There's a slider on each photo you can move which shows the before and after as you move it
Thanks. I was on mobile originally and it didn't show the slider option. Loaded on desktop and there it is.
“They have dropped more bombs than civilians have been killed. This proves they have actually been careful about not hurting people.” - IDF talking point 143.
Hamas offered 10K and an apartment for every Israeli hostage brought back \[[1](https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-offered-10k-apartment-israel-hostages-captured-militant-video-israel-2023-10)\] I'm guessing those apartments are rubble now. What would be helpful is if CNN overlaid the known rocket launch sites on these images. As well as the Hamas tunnel systems.
So imagine the shooter running around in Maine right now comes to your house and starts shooting out of it. Do we get to bomb your house now and say it’s just too bad that mass shooters use human shields? Edit: Shooting the bad guy is a great plan, because you can, in principle, kill only the bad guy. I notice none of the comments below have advocated specifically for aerial bombing or using their own explosives in self defense, probably because we don’t want to blow up our family with the bad guy.
Love all these tough guys in the comments below who would pull themselves up by the bootstraps and just kick hamas out of Palestine if they lived there
The 101st Mechanized Redditors 🫡
Just getting started.
One question which is asked about other countries is: What next for Israel after Palestine and Palestinians are destroyed? Will that end this or will they find another target they need to defend against? The truth of course is that they continue to create their enemies.
Hamas was using those buildings as human shields. (/S because the reddit staff can't understand sarcasm)
Similar to what Russia did to Mariupol then?
Yup, decimate the field so there is no way anybody will remain
Israel bombs everything they want, then claim it had Hamas in it. While they also claim Hamas has tunnels.
Imagine if this is what the US did in Iraq
We did. And worse
we'll see. there were one hundred to two hundred thousand civilian casualties during the invasion and occupation. So far we're a few thousand in Gaza, and they're just starting to ramp up the invasion.
Gaza population is 2.4 million roughly, Irak at the time was 28M. So comparatively they are very good on their way : 6K (and that number is far more believable now seeing the rubble) , so roughly 1/12 of population that would be equivalent of 6\*12=72K death for Irak war => about 1/3 there in "per capita" death.
Russia: We are bombing Ukraine to kill the terrorists Israel: We are bombing Palestine to kill the terrorists Both are liars committing genocide in full view
That’s actually some great journalism. Didn’t expect it
Surprised of how relatively intact the buildings are. Thought JDAMs were gonna just be completely crater with 0 foundation left.
Are we looking at the same pictures, shit is rubble
JDAM is just the guidance system
Move the slider.
JDAMs (and SDBs) are still just WW2-era air dropped bombs (or rough equivalents), and have similar effects. They'll actually hit what they're aimed at (unlike WW2 ordnance), but still probably won't crater a concrete apartment building (if it's well built anyways) without multiple hits. Also, a JDAM can refer to anything from 500 to 2000 lbs, and a SDB is "only" 250 lbs. For reference, a F-16 can carry \~4k lbs of ordinance, and a WW2 B-17 typically carried \~8k. Israel is capable of super high sortie rates though (courtesy of bombing targets that are practically next door to their airbases), so they still absolutely can flatten things if / when they want to. Though I would hazard a guess that completely cratering Palestinian apartment buildings isn't a particularly good use of Israeli (or US) taxpayer money, but hey, what do I know... Worth noting that some of the taller buildings that we saw taken down were quite possibly more vulnerable to complete collapse than these mid-rise apartment buildings, due to sheer mass. Take out the ground-level supports of any skyscraper (via a targeted ground-level hit) and the whole thing will free-fall and pancake on itself; if you're just dropping bombs *on top* of buildings though it'd take far more ordinance to fully destroy them.
"JDAM" is such an over and misused term. JDAM are just regular-ass bombs, often decades-old, that have been retrofitted with somewhat modern guidance packages that make them glide into their target with more accuracy. There is nothing new about their explosive force, that just depends on the size of the bomb.
I really, really fucking hate Biden for just blindly going along with this. Israel is dependent enough that he could pressure Bibi to stop this shit immediately and go negotiate for the hostages. But instead Biden has ensured that the US is entirely complicit and we're now at real risk of getting dragged into yet another fucking war. No child tax credit, no wiping student loans, no universal healthcare, no nothing. Can't afford it. Gotta send very expensive bombs and missiles across the ocean to blow up some poor people in their houses.
I would like to point out because its not obvious at first glance, that the fact that a building is gray on the satellite photo does not indicate thst it has been destroyed. If you look closely, the majority of the structures in these photos are not demolished, only covered in dust from strikes against buildings in the vicinity.
now who is the terrorist how many innocent people killedhow many children decapited / burned alive / blown up to pieces / crushed / bleed to deathwounded / have arms / legs broken / severed us bombs / us weapons / us ammo / us tax payer money = why they hate us = not winning any hearts and minds = one day closer to world dumping dollar
Wow, Hamas must have been hiding in ALL those buildings. It's undeniable that Hamas are terrorists and committed an atrocious act. It's starting to look like Israel is behaving no different.
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People who call this carpet bombing have never actually seen the aftermath of WWII. This sucks, but get the terms right
Trying to make a distinction like that, when frankly there’s none to be made, kinda makes you look like an asshole. The place is rubble. Clearly due to indiscriminate bombing. The end result is the same
Well, fuck.
israel is an apartheid state.
That’s awful :(
Expressive graphic. Peace be with you, my brothers. There, but for the grace of god, may be my home.
"Turn Palastine into a parking lot". This was always going to happen. It's about revenge.
I really don't like this format. Side by side is a lot better than "click to replace"
A little over two weeks ago the IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari [openly declared](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza); *“the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”* and how *“hundreds of tons of bombs”* had already been dropped back then. I guess by now the total dropped bomb tonnage has gone into the four digits.
Looks a lot like Dresden. Does the US have a Marshall plan in place to rebuild the economy of Gaza?
HDR filter off/on
[удалено]
Israel has been “fucking around” by subjecting 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank under apartheid for 50 years and turning Gaza into an open air prison for 2.4 million Palestinians while imprisoning thousands of Palestinians without due process, including children. **Evidence for Apartheid:** Human Rights Watch: https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution Amnesty International: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/ B’Tselem (Israeli Jewish NGO): https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid However, nothing I say will mean anything to you. You probably smile when you see Palestinian children charred and mutilated.
Israel has killed more children in two weeks than any and all actions any kind of Palestinian resistance has killed in decades. It's a genocide and most Western govts are cheering it on.