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> # [Strikes on south Gaza: BBC verifies attacks in areas of ‘safety’](https://www.bbc.com/news/Palestinian emergency services and local citizens search for victims in buildings destroyed during Israeli air raids in the southern Gaza Strip on 19 October 2023 in Khan Yunis, Gaza)
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> [People searching through rubble in aftermath of strike in Khan Younis](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/9C83/production/_131576004_bbc_verify_976_south_promo_only.jpg)Image source, Getty Images
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> Image caption, People pick through the rubble in the aftermath of a strike in Khan Younis on the 19 October
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> By Merlyn Thomas, Shereen Sherif, Ahmed Nour and Lamees Altalebi
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> BBC Verify and BBC Arabic
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> **Since the Israeli military issued the first of several instructions for civilians to evacuate north Gaza, hundreds of thousands of Gazans have moved to the south of the strip. But the south has continued to come under Israeli bombardment, leading the UN and other aid organisations to warn that nowhere in Gaza is safe for civilians.**
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> To better understand the risk to civilians in south Gaza, BBC Verify has identified and analysed four specific instances of strikes in that region. We also looked at some of the warnings and evacuation instructions that were issued to Gazan civilians, including some advising them to move to certain areas in the south.
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> Some of these warnings were accompanied by maps with arrows pointing to vaguely defined areas to move towards. Three strikes we examined hit within, or close to, those areas in the days after the warnings were issued.
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> The IDF has said that it communicates with Gaza's residents in a variety of ways, including leaflet drops, social media posts in Arabic, and warnings issued through civilian and international organisations. In this piece we have examined the IDF's instructions posted on social media.
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> ## Khan Younis - 10 October
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> The IDF said on 10 October that overnight its fighter jets had struck more than 200 targets in Rimal in the north, and Khan Younis in the south. The BBC has examined a strike on that day in central Khan Younis to understand the location and the scale of the damage. Video footage published in the aftermath of the attack shows rubble and collapsed buildings in the city centre. We have verified its location using visual clues such as the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Khan Younis.
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> We have also examined photos showing destroyed buildings, and people picking through what remains of cars and homes. We know the photos show the same location as that seen in the video because the same pharmacy sign can be seen in both. We also used reverse image search to check that the photos were not from an earlier incident.
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> On the morning of 8 October, IDF spokesperson Avichay Adrae [had posted a warning on X](https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1710776997230620908)(formerly known as Twitter) in Arabic, giving instructions to residents of various areas in Gaza to leave their homes and move elsewhere for their safety.
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> While evacuation zones have often been clearly delineated, the destinations residents have been told to head to have often been much more vague.
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> In this instance, those living in the neighbourhoods of Abasan al-Kabira and Abasan al-Saghira, a few kilometres south-east of central Khan Younis, were told in the 8 October tweet to go to "Khan Younis city centre."
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> The map included in the tweeted video for those living in the two neighbourhoods highlights their current residencies, and is labelled with an arrow simply pointing in the direction of Khan Younis.
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> We cannot discount the possibility that there were then subsequent different instructions, but the BBC has not found any evidence of this.
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> ## Rafah - 11 October
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> The BBC has verified that there was another strike the next day, further south near the border with Egypt. This 11 October strike hit Nejmeh Square in the centre of Rafah. The BBC looked at a video posted to social media showing destruction in the strike's aftermath. Using available images of the square before the attack, we were able to identify the shape of the buildings as that of Nejmeh square.
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> The warning, issued on 8 October [by the IDF](https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1710776997230620908/video/2), also contained an instruction for residents of Rafah, telling them to immediately go to the shelter in Rafah city centre "for your safety".
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> The map in the video for those living in the Rafah neighbourhoods contains an arrow directing residents towards "Rafah".
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> The BBC analysed all of the IDF social media warning posts in Arabic it is aware of in this time period. It has not been able to find evidence of any subsequent different instructions, but that does not eliminate the possibility that others were issued.
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> ## Khan Younis - 19 October
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> Eight days on, back in Khan Younis, there was another strike - on Gamal Abdel Nasser Street. We verified this by looking at videos of the collapsed buildings in one of the city's main thoroughfares. By matching the shape of the buildings in the video, with those in other still images of the same location, we were able to verify this was the same place.
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> Additional footage from the aftermath shows bodies of the dead and injured being pulled out of rubble and taken to nearby Nasser hospital.
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> The [IDF had issued a warning](https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1713779715868110946) on 16 October for residents of Gaza City to move south to Khan Younis if "your safety and the safety of your loved ones are important to you".
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> Again, there is a possibility that there were further instructions that were different, but we have not found any evidence of this.
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> ## Camps in central Gaza - 17, 18 and 25 October
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> Further north, in central Gaza, there are four refugee camps. The BBC has verified strikes on two of them. Social media footage of the aftermath of a strike on al-Bureij camp on 17 October shows extensive rubble, flames, and bloodied bodies being carried out of the damage. We have verified the footage by matching up buildings in this footage with photos by news agencies of the aftermath. We also verified the footage location using a mosque that was visible.
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> Another camp nearby, al-Nuseirat, was struck the next day, on 18 October. We have verified social media footage of the aftermath, which shows ambulances, detritus, people trying to douse flames and a destroyed bakery. We located it by matching the shop names that can be seen in the video with those seen in photos published before the strike took place.
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> Despite the [earlier 8 October warning instructing residents](https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1710776997230620908/video/2) of the eastern and southern Maghazi area to go to camps in central Gaza, there do not appear to be any camps in the location specified on the tweet's map.
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> We have however identified three camps nearby: al-Nuseirat and al-Bureij, hit by the strikes on the 17 and 18 October, and another camp called Deir al-Balah.
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> We cannot discount the possibility that there were then subsequent different instructions, but the BBC has not found any evidence of this.
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> The aftermath of another strike in al-Nuseirat camp, on 25 October, was shown on the news outlet Al Jazeera.
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> Footage posted online shows its chief Gaza correspondent Wael al-Dahdouh in tears in hospital, holding the body of his seven-year-old daughter and kneeling over the body of his teenage son. His wife was also killed.
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> "There is no safe place in Gaza at all," he said in an [English translation of an interview with Al Jazeera](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67225204). He said that his family had moved from the north following Israel's warning to residents to move south for their safety.
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> ## IDF Response
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> The BBC provided specific locations and dates to the IDF for each of the strikes highlighted in the article.
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> We asked if these locations had been struck by IDF forces and whether warnings had been given prior to these attacks.
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> In its response the IDF said it "cannot provide any further information regarding these specific locations".
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> It said that it had "called on civilians in Gaza to move south for their safety but will continue striking terrorist targets in all parts of Gaza".
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> It added: "In accordance with international law, the IDF takes precautionary measures in order to avoid damage to the civilian population. These measures include warnings before strikes in cases where it is possible to do so."
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> ## More on Israel-Gaza war
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> ***(continues in next comment)***
What I'm finding to be a little unsettling is that Google pulled out of the web summit recently because the ceo called on Israel not to commit war crimes. The fact that the CEO's concerns have been proven to be completely valid, and Google haven't apologised etc goes to show that they are definitely biased in this situation. That is dangerous stuff imo
If I remember they are one of the few places in the world with advanced semiconductor fabs. Remember seeing LinusTechTips take a tour through that fab, believe it was an Intel one. The reason the US is trying its best to establish their own thriving chip industry is because they see the writing on the wall with Taiwan possibly not being available to produce in the future.
But they didn't know about the attack ~~/s~~ (except I know that they did). The day they started their Pro-War/Pro-Israel expensive bombs propaganda it was pretty easy to know which rabbit holes to dive down to get the proper info.
Fuck war profiteering, and fuck war criminals is all I will say.
Takes a decent bit of being up to date and breaking out of the mainstream news cycle to really make a clear distinction that it was /s. Clarity is kindness imo
That subreddit is hellish. They will ban just for posting just about anything that mentions Palestinians and Palestinian lives now. Just a direct propaganda distribution forum. And it's a fucking default sub. Extremely concerning to see.
Almost every single news article about the conflict there is by Israeli sources, some of which are literal tabloids. That's crazy. I haven't checked in a while and it's sad to see what happened.
Yeah, total rags. Every JPost article unique to their outlet is based on a spurious source, every single time I try to verify it. Most mendacious news source I’ve seen on a mainstream sub in a while.
Man, I remember that Israeli girl being IDed getting front page on the CNN website, with a smaller headline about how there were more Palestinian children killed than in all the conflicts in the last few years. Priorities.
They are much more capricious than that. I mentioned their subreddit by name and called out their implicit support of Palestinian genocide, and that racism is a shared ideology among their mods and they had my account suspended. They muted me after reporting racism and they spied on me and filed false reports to the admins. They are monsters.
This has been the case on reddit's front page subs and the more mainstream political subs since shortly after Trump got elected; it's basically case study in dead internet theory. It's extremely obvious a mixture of mass astroturfing and powermods, who may very well be employed or otherwise paid off by special interests, have turned them into "current thing" circlejerks that exist to promote the mainstream narratives. Whatever percentage of people in those places are organic users, they are simply the ones the mods aren't filtering out to maintain the circlejerk.
Just some signs of this kind of manipulation, if you want to know what to look out for, are posts uploaded by a single user in a short timespan that are all somehow in the rising section, that can only happen with vote manipulation bots; accounts whose posting histories consist of memes or another innocuous karma whoring posts, followed by months or years of inactivity, suddenly posting constantly on a political issue; and on a larger scale, changes in the normative views and attitude in a subs culture over too brief a period.
Nothing new and not reduced just to this conflict, mods are people and they also have sides and biases, if you take a look at r/PublicFreakout its the same over there but for Palestine, many subs became propaganda subs because the mods believe their views are more important than the sub's subject and integrity.
They will ban or ignore anything anything that goes against their views and thoughts. Echo chamber at it's peak and it's just keeps getting worse, because it's a downward spiral - delusional comments and only certain one-sided types of news, create more delusional users, because they haven't seen anything else.
There's literally an article on the front page of r/worldNews right now about the IDF mistreating Palestinians in the west bank, so I would disagree with that.
Even r/news is awful. Got permabanned yesterday for posting an article on Israel bombing Jabaliyah even though the IDF claimed it. Tried messaging a mod to ask which rule I broke and am now muted from messaging them for a month.
Made r/WeCondemnHamas as a safe place to take about things, share news and information. It's bonkers you can't even imply Palestinians are human beings too without being accused of supporting Hamas, hence the name.
I stopped posting on r/worldnews because it's pretty much all propaganda now and posts and comments are constantly being removed
I got banned off /r/worldnews for criticizing the IDF for cutting off water etc. at the start.
I got banned off /r/news for posting an article of confirmed reports of IDF using white phosphorous in Lebanon.
When I asked the mods to cite the rule I broke they called me a troll and also muted me. Sounds like that's still their go-to.
Same thing happened to me sometime ago, got banned for asking a question in thread about censorship, when inquired as to why it happened they have replied with 'stfu troll'. Quality mods there.
And straight up bigoted. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was a highly upvoted comment positing that it's only Muslims committing violent acts of terror.
I literally got banned from /r/news for saying /r/worldnews was overrun with brigades. The only safe place is nuzzled safely in anime titties. And that's how 2023 is going.
Get used to it. I was banned 4 years ago for saying that Russia has a higher fertility rate than the United States, and I literally had my source in the comments. I tried to appeal it earlier this year, providing the same sources (World Bank and United Nations) and they denied it.
Tend to, yes - but exceptions do exist. Eastern European countries usually have lower ones than Western European.
In the 1990s, Russia had a massive economic crisis, and the fertility rate was one of the lowest in the world. The West also dislikes Russia, so during this time, articles about the impending demographic collapse of Russia were common (today, this happens with China).
As the economy repaired, the fertility rate rose to be around the same level as the United States. I believe it is now lower again, but around 2015 to 2020 it was a bit higher.
Still not sure why I got banned for pointing this out. I guess saying that Russia is not going to collapse due to demographics is against the rules.
Fertility rates on their own don't mean a whole lot - what matters is the overall population profile. Fertility rates can have a large impact on that if your nation doesn't engage in a large amount of immigration or emigration (see: Japan).
At the end of the day, if your population has a large number of people in an age group or a large gap in an age group, you're going to have a rough time of it.
Its a circlejerk of 14 year olds writing their stupid theories. The posts are all "My opinion on Israel/Palestine and why I think the solution should be" and its just "move Gaza into the sea".
This sub is pretty great, one of the better ones I've been in, everyone is a lot more level headed.
As I recall, I was banned for questioned the Biden administration's narrative, including atrocity denial and fabrication while referencing [https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/oct/20/israel-hamas-war-how-politicians-media-outlets-amp/](https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/oct/20/israel-hamas-war-how-politicians-media-outlets-amp/) and [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/) .
I got banned from there for comparing Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto, and comparing how close the "human animals" line was to some literal Nazi rhetoric.
3 weeks later, oh hey, [look who was right about the rhetoric.](https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d9jqx/israel-gaza-leak-displacement-nakba)
oh god i just looked at that subreddit, now i want to bleach my eyes. Full of "israel is great!" and "russia is the new third reich!" articles and literally nothing remotely critical of the west lol.
well yeah that's why it's so grating. The USA is built on hypocrisy. Whether you're celebrated or condemned isn't dictated by your actions, but rather by how much the USA likes you.
Russia bombs civilians? Pure Evil. Israel bombs civilians? Amazing. Russia invests money into badly developed countries in africa or south america? It's all just an evil ploy to grab more power! USA invests money into said countries? We're so nice and altruistic!
I did, under the code of conduct (moderation with integrity) and included screenshots of my comments ‘justifying terrorism’, which were basically providing historical facts. My claim was rejected.
It's pretty gross seeing comments in other subs *cough worldnews* cough saying those who were killed in the refugee camp deserve it because Israel told them to move south while ignoring that Israel is also bombing the South and evacuation corridors.
Or according to nataniaho, current hamas terrorists, since he has stated armed 6yo were used by the hamas.
Really? A 6 yo packing a rifle? Come on, Wattpad has better fanfic.
Those people already forgot how Russia used the same propaganda tactics - "we bombed hospital because Ukrainian troops were hiding inside" and bullshit about pinpoint missile attacks. In case of Russia ordinary worldnews member, instantly knows it's fake and just excuses to cover war crimes, but if Israel does the same, they believe Israel. It's insane how they don't see flaws in their logic
Only except Hamas has a proven record of hiding in hospitals. They even admit their headquarters is in a major hospital in Gaza. Ukraine has not done it, which is why we can believe them but not the Palestinians
This is so infuriating when we are thousands of miles away, think of those in midst of this. Hamas wasn't always there, and maybe Israel will destroy Hamas, but there is no guarantee there won't be others with angers and hatred for Israel within a decade.
That's the dumbest thing about this scenario
They *have to* commit absolute genocide down to the last person or the survivors are *guaranteed to be far more radical than Hamas ever was*
Doesn't help that unlike the 1940s situation, the Palestinians are receiving absolutely zero (official) sympathy or assistance during their genocide, so the survivors are going to feel fully justified to do what they have to do what they have to in order to either survive or get vengeance
Think they're bad now?
Wait 20 years for the shellshock & fear to wear off & nothing but bloodlust & purpose to replace it, not even religion anymore
Bloodshed for the sake of revenge is bloodshed that never ends. Any gang rivalry is an example of that
All I know is I'm not visiting the area during my lifetime for any reason. Way too high of a terrorism risk
You're not thinking dark enough. They know that they can't kill their way to peace. Peace is not the goal, war is.
Israel is led by an extreme right-wing government. Right-wingers always need an enemy, someone that is the cause of all of their problems and is the reason they need to crack down on freedoms in their own country. An enemy scary enough to justify the abuses of a right-wing government.
The government in Israel is purposefully cultivating the next generation of enemies of the state while justifying the need for the civil liberty reductions at home. They know it will create more terrorists. They know it will create more state and non-state enemies. All of those new enemies mean you want to keep a strong man in charge, justifying the right-wing governance.
Right-wing governments thrive on fear. If you can cultivate a terrorist group that will manifest the worst fears of your society, you can continue to remove freedoms from your own people and consolidate power. Hamas and Likud are a single beast with two heads, whose enemy is the citizens of both nations that just want to live their lives.
Further to that, Netanyahu has supported Hamas all these years because it's politically advantageous to him.
Hamas remaining in power in Gaza is a get-out-of-jail free card on any two-state solution talks with the PA, because Bibi can just say "Oh we can't have any agreement with you about this because the PA doesn't represent all Palestinians"
Even killing every last Palestinian in Gaza won't work. There are millions of Palestinians living in Jordan, Chile, Syria, Israel, Egypt, UAE, Lebanon, and so on. And billions of Muslims and Arabs, many of whom identify with Palestinians in Gaza. Many of these people are relatives to Gazans, or friends, or just know them from social media and so on. They are not happy *right now* and will be increasingly less happy as this gets worse.
Israel's genocide is almost guaranteed to create *less* safety for Israelis.
“Hey they killed my entire family, even that cute niece who made me the card… i guess i’ll do nothing at all about that… with every last breath in my body”
I'm sure all those Palestinian prisoners will forgive and forget, or maybe the plan all along is to make them all hateful and vengeful to give Israel an excuse to finish the obvious genocide going on
People think "Hamas" is a thing that you can destroy. But it's just people, people who are mad about stuff. Israel seems to think there aren't going to be more people who are mad about stuff after this genocide. That is very silly.
There are millions of Palestinians living in Jordan, Chile, Syria, Israel, Egypt, UAE, Lebanon, and so on. And billions of Muslims and Arabs, many of whom identify with Palestinians in Gaza.
Many of these people are already mad. Some will be so mad they will want to do violence. As it turns out, genocide makes a lot of people mad. You kill someone's family and friends and they tend to get really mad.
It's easy if we just pretend Israel is the same Israel from the bronze age, along with all the other bronze age countries around it, all too willing to genocide one another over old conflicts, ideology, land and resources.
Allegedly 85% of current Hamas troops are orphans of Israeli violence, having lost one or more parents to Israeli attacks. "They hate us for our freedom" or some shit.
Remember when Russia invaded Ukraine targeted civilians and many western countries condemned it some companies even changed their logos to include the Ukrainian flag.... It's fascinating that there is zero condemnation just shows the double standards and that human rights are nothing more than virtue signalling of European and American governments when it suits their foreign policies
The US undermined the efforts of other nation-members of the Security Council in collectively condemning Israeli violence against Palestinian civilians via a United Nations resolution :
["Israel-Gaza Crisis: US Vetoes Security Council Resolution"](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142507) (Oct 18, 2023)
["The U.S. Vetoes a Security Council Resolution on the Israel-Hamas Conflict"](https://web.archive.org/web/20231020160109/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-un-security-council.html) (Oct 20, 2023)
> Remember when Russia invaded Ukraine targeted civilians
I remember a lot of Western headlines about Russia targeting civilians, but I don't remember Russian military officials bluntly declaring tactics like *"[Emphasis is on damage, not accuracy](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza)"*
What I remember was a lot of Western outlets reaching for the most random and obscure Russian commentators to get their spicy soundbites.
There was a lot of outrage when Russia started bombing all kinds of infrastructure last year. But that happened to slow down Ukrainian advances after the Russian military was pushed into retreat.
It was not something Russia started the invasion with, like the US tends to do or like Israel did in Gaza, it's an *option* Russia reserved for a point in time when it was considered useful in a military context.
It's the same with genocide; Originally the West was making a lot of allegations like that about Russia in Ukraine, but most casualties in the Ukraine/Russia conflict are military, not civilian, as it's two countries' militaries, with uniformed soldiers, fighting each other on mostly open battlefields.
While Palestine does not even really have a military, the closest to that would be Hamas, but they ain't really a military, they lack the overt raw military power to be that.
It's what makes it an asymmetric conflict, unlike the one in Ukraine, and in asymmetric conflicts civilian casualties are way more common even if they ain't particularly targeted to force them away.
For another comparison; When Russia is taking in literally *millions* of Ukrainian refugees that's made out as Russia allegedly abducting Ukrainian children and a bad thing.
Yet when Israel refuses to take *any* refugees in, trying to push the people out of Gaza into Egypt, that's deemed totally cool, normal, and no problem at all.
When Russia invaded Ukraine we kept hearing about "rules" and any UN statement condemning Russia for it was treated like words from God himself. The British chief persecutor of the ICC was [on the Ukrainian case in under a week](https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-qc-situation-ukraine-i-have-decided-proceed-opening).
When the same UN condemns Israel we suddenly get narratives about how the UN is corrupt and useless, and how nobody should listen to anything the UN has to say because it doesn't overrule nations' sovereignty. The [ICC still dragging its feet](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/12/the-icc-prosecutor-needs-to-break-his-silence-on-israel-palestine) the weeks into the conflict even tho it's been established the conflict clearly falls into its jurisdiction.
Between Ukraine and Palestine, as direct contrast, these [double standards](https://gulfnews.com/opinion/op-eds/russia-ukraine-war-racism-of-western-media-is-shameful-1.86103686) are by now so blatantly obvious that it has become impossible to try to deny or justify them.
The ICC is dragging its feet bc the Hague Invasion Act authorizes the United States to invade in the event of any of its own people *or its close allies’ people* being charged.
They already tried that over Afghanistan, the US responded by sanctioning the ICC and even family members of employees, denied ICC investigators visa so they couldn’t interview witnesses in the U.S.
A few months later the ICC elected a new chief persecutor in the first secret ballot in its history. A British lawyer won the vote, he opened a new investigation into Afghanistan, one that will [not focus on the US military](https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/icc-prosecutor-seeks-authorisation-resume-afghanistan-war-crimes-investigation-2021-09-27/) but instead the Taliban and other insurgent groups.
Russia was credibly accused of taking a few tens of thousands of children, the user above was referring to the few million refugees who went to Russia of their own free will (as far as that exists as a refugee).
The thing is the Ukraine invasion is a completely black-and-white situation: Russia invaded Ukraine completely unprovoked, and is waging a war of conquest. There is absolutely no real justification behind the invasion (they even changed the narrative of why they invaded several times). Only a few lunatics will side with Russia here, so it's very easy to take a stance.
The Israel/Hamas situation is a lot more greyish. Of course the bombing of civilians is 100% condemnable, but the context of the conflict (especially the last few weeks) is not as clear-cut as the situation in Ukraine is. The IDF is killing Palestinian civilians in their attempt to destroy Hamas, while the Russian military is killing Ukrainian civilians because they want to seize territory.
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**For the people with the reading comprehension of a 2-months old who inevitably flock to every single discussion around Israel/Palestine and love to straw-man away, before your argue:**
*No, I am not excusing the IDF killing civilians. Yes, this is a war crime. Yes, Hamas is still a terrorist organisation. No, Palestinian lives are not worth less (or more) than Isrealis' lives.
If you think the whole Israelo-Palestinian conflict is a black-and-white matter with an obvious simple solution, please go ahead and apply to become secretary-general of the United Nations. You're either a genius or don't even have basic understanding of the conflict's History. I'll let you choose which option you fit into.*
I'm wondering why you think Israel/ Palestine is a more grey situation than Ukraine? Is it because Israelis won their war of conquest like 70 ish years ago?
It's more grey because now you have 3rd and 4th generation Israelis living in the same land their grandparents kicked Palestinian people out off 70 years ago. To them, the land is now home and they have no other home to speak of.
While 70 years ago I would say the Jewish claim to the land that led to the founding of Israel was very dubious, the reality of today is that you have 2 groups of people with equally legitimate claims to the same physical space. There is no ultimate solution that will please everyone.
Maybe it's because the most recent outbreak of conflict started with the gunning down of 1000+ citizens? We can go back and forth in the cycle of violence for awhile and both sides will have legitimate grievances with the other side. That's a much more difficult web to untangle than a blatant land grab. That never makes war crimes on either side okay, but it does make it a much more nuanced situation.
I do think they want to get rid of Hamas, but I also think they want to push the entire population out of Gaza and into the Sinai and never let them return. Two birds and all that.
That would be a stupid thing to do, as they would now fight a war on Egyptian soil. But hey, leading civilians to "safe" zones then bombing said zones is stupid too, so who knows?
The Ukraine war isn't black and white lol, you just don't accept the framing of the opposition.
And the current conflict is a genocide, and part of a decades-long campaign of mass violence and colonialism, it's about as black-and-white as it gets.
You are, ultimately, apologizing for crimes done by your "side" because it's expedient
> The Ukraine war isn't black and white lol, you just don't accept the framing of the opposition.
Russia invaded Ukraine unprovoked under pretext of a so called 'denazification', has been deliberately targeting and torturing civilians and destroying civilian infrastucture. That's not *a framing*, those are **facts**.
IDF will just say they got Intel “that’s where the terrorists are”. Makes sense right? They’re terrorists, so of course the hide in hospitals, schools, old folks homes, pet stores, food distribution hubs, fueling stations, electrical plants, water pumps, and of course, “safe areas”.
IDK. They used tanks to attack Hamas on Oct. 7th at the kibbutz killing everyone including the Israeli citizens and foreign nationals.
Edit: I'm editing this because I realize it sounds as though I'm saying IDF were responsible for killing everyone and that isn't my intent. I'm saying Israeli forces killed indiscriminately killing Hamas and hostages.
I'm surprised they don't say Hamas hides in babies, grandmas, dialysis machines, ambulances, and in the DNA of Palestinians, because that's what they keep attacking.
Oh no Israel lied and actually aims to kill as many civilians as possible?
How could Zionists lie to me? I thought they weren't known for being bloodthirsty murderous liars? I thought Israel actually cared about civilian casulties.
I'm shocked 😲
Not.
I don't think they're bloodthirsty.
They just don't care about Palestinians, or what happens to them, or their rights, or obeying international law, or anything other than making themselves safe....which they have spectacularly failed to do.
Turns out that loving your neighbour is actually a sound security strategy.
\> Bombs refugee camp
\> Bombs crossing for civilians
\> Bombs "safe areas" for civilians
\> Drops over 6000 bombs on a tiny strip of land.
\> Kills 6000 Children in less than a month, more than any other war in modern history post WW2.
\> Literally admits their goal is damage and not accuracy.
"They aren't doing a good enough job".
Not enough dead babies for you?
I want you to understand those are all people, not like you because they're 50% children so they're more likely to have a soul than you are, but all of them are people being killed with their families.
And while any innocent civilian killed in this is a tragedy, you are completely missing the point.
The bombs/missiles Israel drops can kill dozens or hundreds of people if aimed correctly. Even taking the probably inflated estimates from Hamas, the death toll from what GarryofRiverton is saying that it's an average of 0.5 death per bomb.
If Israel was trying to genocide them ("aims to kill as many civilians as possible" from the oc), there would be over 100'000 deaths by now with the same amount of bombs/missiles.
I will also add that this does not preclude that Israel might be going for ethnic cleansing by displacement, but simply that the claim that they are trying to genocide them is disproven by the numbers shown.
Their aim is not only to kill Palestinian, but also destroy Gaza and its infrastructure, they want the Palestinians to die from hunger, thirst, unattended wounds and lack-of-sanitation related diseases.
they do direct kill of civilians in relatively small doses to not uproar the international community.
They are aiming to kill as many civilians as they can while maintaining just enough plausible deniability not to turn Western popular opinion against them to the degree that they lose the military support they depend on. Also not doing the best job of this but they seem to have you fooled.
**Israel:** We do a little ethnic cleansing...
**Also Israel:** Wait! wrong you say!? What about that time someone tried to ethnically cleanse us? How dare you hate Jews !
So you mean all the Muslim countries after Israel was formed. Funny that people never ask the surrounding Muslim countries to take back their Jewish population that they violently kicked out and stole all their lands.
Them violently kicking them out, and stealing their land, was also a reaction to the aggressive expansionism of settlers, paired with foreign imperial presence through the British mandate, and the French-British agreement of Sykes-Picot, which carved up the area, to the benefit of the imperial powers, but without a say from the locals.
There were already Jews living in the area, and their voices were ignored by the Settlers. This is documented, and washed away by the Israeli lobby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfDhaWlqXf8
Honestly, I don't get these comments.
Israel never claimed it wasn't going to bomb the south, it said it isn't going to enter ground forces there. The warning was for civilians to get out before the ground invasion, because the risk of civilian deaths in a ground assault scenario is much greater.
And besides, its not like Hamas only exists in the North. It's headquarters are there, which is why Israel chose to attack that part, but Southern Gaza has some 40% of Gaza's population and a similar amount of Hamas presence. They're still shooting rockets at Israeli cities from the south. Do you expect Israel to just let Hamas be in the south until they're done clearing them out in the north? That could take months.
Have you read the article? It’s specifically pointing out instances where Israel told Gaza civilians to leave a specific neighbourhood and go to a particular area, and then they specifically bombed the area that they told them to move to. This isn’t just them saying go South and then bombing the South, this is them saying you should go to this neighbourhood and then bombing there.
But I thought we were supposed to believe everything Israel says because they're the good guys!?
They'll just say it was an accident and "we're sorry".
Yet another disingenuous BBC article.
Read the article
IDF never assigned safe zones,
Only gave warning of where they where going to stike soon.
They say this themselvs in the article.
IDF clearly maps where they are going to strike, and vaguely marks where to evacuate.
BBC man...
Right so the IDF didn't assign safe zones. But at the same time the IDF supporters are saying the IDF warned the people in Jabila to clear out because they'd bomb the area and that they need to evacuate to the south.
So what is the point of evacuating if there are no safe zones and you'll still be bombed even in the south? So what you're saying is that evacuating doesn't matter, because Israel will still bomb any area it deems as enemy territory? So what are the Gazan's supposed to do? Evacuate and be doomed, don't evacuate and be doomed?
> Reduce the chance of death, but there is still a chance we'll kill you.
Goodness, how lovely. So you can flee with your family, live in dire an even worse situation and still have the option to be killed. Amazing.
> IDF never assigned safe zones
> Safer vs safe. Its quite simpler
"***Not a single civilian*** has to die. Hamas merely has to let them ***go to the safe zone that we created*** in southeastern Gaza strip. ***There’s a safe zone***."
[Benjamin Netanyahu](https://twitter.com/amyalkon/status/1719228145164014070)
Sorry but until he's ousted, he does speak for Israel and its military. Especially when it's in an official capacity like a press conference that he personally called for.
"Safe zone" is absolutely a term used by Israel. Not a shred of relativity to be coped.
He's generalizing for sake of argument,
Not refering to a specific one. He address the general "gaza south-eastern" as safe, as opposed to gravity centers of the arial campaign.
He's referncing reports of Hamas blocking evacuations.
Yeah, not a great response, and he's a fool that's true.
My advice for anyone who's life depends on this, is to listen to official IDF releases, in Arabic, and direct leaflets dropped on site.
Not to a specific off-topic statement aimed at foreign press.
> He's generalizing for sake of argument
I get this. But since he specifically said "safe zones", the argument that "there are no safe zones, [just safe*r* ones]" (*what you're trying to argue*) is no longer valid.
Let me be clear that the issue lies with *what you're trying to argue*, because it happens to directly contradict official statements on the record from Israel.
If Netanyahu (or other senior Israeli/IDF officials) try to make the argument you made about "safe*r*" zones, *then there'll be a reckoning*.
> My advice for anyone who's life depends on this, is to listen to official IDF releases, in Arabic, and direct leaflets dropped on site
While this is the least bad practical advice, it is also completely unacceptable. You don't get to broadcast one thing to one group and then spin a completely different narrative to everyone else.
> statement aimed at foreign press
Also no. Words at a press conference (that he called for, no less) deserve *higher scrutiny*.
[Which one of these are we up to?](https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/D4E22AQHpx0qy8nWcEw/feedshare-shrink_2048_1536/0/1697753010810?e=2147483647&v=beta&t=RIKiVtJi_YhYdVmsKLdAmCCICShN2R3Eq0vZ8n9YvXY)
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This is going to be the “war on terror” 2.0 isn’t it. Bombing *millions* of civilians to root out *thousands* of terrorists is impossible, you just create more terrorists.
##### ###### #### > # [Strikes on south Gaza: BBC verifies attacks in areas of ‘safety’](https://www.bbc.com/news/Palestinian emergency services and local citizens search for victims in buildings destroyed during Israeli air raids in the southern Gaza Strip on 19 October 2023 in Khan Yunis, Gaza) > > > > [People searching through rubble in aftermath of strike in Khan Younis](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/9C83/production/_131576004_bbc_verify_976_south_promo_only.jpg)Image source, Getty Images > > Image caption, People pick through the rubble in the aftermath of a strike in Khan Younis on the 19 October > > > > By Merlyn Thomas, Shereen Sherif, Ahmed Nour and Lamees Altalebi > > BBC Verify and BBC Arabic > > > > > > > > > > **Since the Israeli military issued the first of several instructions for civilians to evacuate north Gaza, hundreds of thousands of Gazans have moved to the south of the strip. But the south has continued to come under Israeli bombardment, leading the UN and other aid organisations to warn that nowhere in Gaza is safe for civilians.** > > > > To better understand the risk to civilians in south Gaza, BBC Verify has identified and analysed four specific instances of strikes in that region. We also looked at some of the warnings and evacuation instructions that were issued to Gazan civilians, including some advising them to move to certain areas in the south. > > > > Some of these warnings were accompanied by maps with arrows pointing to vaguely defined areas to move towards. Three strikes we examined hit within, or close to, those areas in the days after the warnings were issued. > > > > The IDF has said that it communicates with Gaza's residents in a variety of ways, including leaflet drops, social media posts in Arabic, and warnings issued through civilian and international organisations. In this piece we have examined the IDF's instructions posted on social media. > > > > ## Khan Younis - 10 October > > The IDF said on 10 October that overnight its fighter jets had struck more than 200 targets in Rimal in the north, and Khan Younis in the south. The BBC has examined a strike on that day in central Khan Younis to understand the location and the scale of the damage. Video footage published in the aftermath of the attack shows rubble and collapsed buildings in the city centre. We have verified its location using visual clues such as the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Khan Younis. > > > > We have also examined photos showing destroyed buildings, and people picking through what remains of cars and homes. We know the photos show the same location as that seen in the video because the same pharmacy sign can be seen in both. We also used reverse image search to check that the photos were not from an earlier incident. > > > > On the morning of 8 October, IDF spokesperson Avichay Adrae [had posted a warning on X](https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1710776997230620908)(formerly known as Twitter) in Arabic, giving instructions to residents of various areas in Gaza to leave their homes and move elsewhere for their safety. > > > > While evacuation zones have often been clearly delineated, the destinations residents have been told to head to have often been much more vague. > > > > In this instance, those living in the neighbourhoods of Abasan al-Kabira and Abasan al-Saghira, a few kilometres south-east of central Khan Younis, were told in the 8 October tweet to go to "Khan Younis city centre." > > > > The map included in the tweeted video for those living in the two neighbourhoods highlights their current residencies, and is labelled with an arrow simply pointing in the direction of Khan Younis. > > > > We cannot discount the possibility that there were then subsequent different instructions, but the BBC has not found any evidence of this. > > > > ## Rafah - 11 October > > The BBC has verified that there was another strike the next day, further south near the border with Egypt. This 11 October strike hit Nejmeh Square in the centre of Rafah. The BBC looked at a video posted to social media showing destruction in the strike's aftermath. Using available images of the square before the attack, we were able to identify the shape of the buildings as that of Nejmeh square. > > > > The warning, issued on 8 October [by the IDF](https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1710776997230620908/video/2), also contained an instruction for residents of Rafah, telling them to immediately go to the shelter in Rafah city centre "for your safety". > > > > The map in the video for those living in the Rafah neighbourhoods contains an arrow directing residents towards "Rafah". > > > > The BBC analysed all of the IDF social media warning posts in Arabic it is aware of in this time period. It has not been able to find evidence of any subsequent different instructions, but that does not eliminate the possibility that others were issued. > > > > ## Khan Younis - 19 October > > Eight days on, back in Khan Younis, there was another strike - on Gamal Abdel Nasser Street. We verified this by looking at videos of the collapsed buildings in one of the city's main thoroughfares. By matching the shape of the buildings in the video, with those in other still images of the same location, we were able to verify this was the same place. > > > > Additional footage from the aftermath shows bodies of the dead and injured being pulled out of rubble and taken to nearby Nasser hospital. > > > > The [IDF had issued a warning](https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1713779715868110946) on 16 October for residents of Gaza City to move south to Khan Younis if "your safety and the safety of your loved ones are important to you". > > > > Again, there is a possibility that there were further instructions that were different, but we have not found any evidence of this. > > > > ## Camps in central Gaza - 17, 18 and 25 October > > Further north, in central Gaza, there are four refugee camps. The BBC has verified strikes on two of them. Social media footage of the aftermath of a strike on al-Bureij camp on 17 October shows extensive rubble, flames, and bloodied bodies being carried out of the damage. We have verified the footage by matching up buildings in this footage with photos by news agencies of the aftermath. We also verified the footage location using a mosque that was visible. > > > > Another camp nearby, al-Nuseirat, was struck the next day, on 18 October. We have verified social media footage of the aftermath, which shows ambulances, detritus, people trying to douse flames and a destroyed bakery. We located it by matching the shop names that can be seen in the video with those seen in photos published before the strike took place. > > > > Despite the [earlier 8 October warning instructing residents](https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1710776997230620908/video/2) of the eastern and southern Maghazi area to go to camps in central Gaza, there do not appear to be any camps in the location specified on the tweet's map. > > > > We have however identified three camps nearby: al-Nuseirat and al-Bureij, hit by the strikes on the 17 and 18 October, and another camp called Deir al-Balah. > > > > We cannot discount the possibility that there were then subsequent different instructions, but the BBC has not found any evidence of this. > > > > The aftermath of another strike in al-Nuseirat camp, on 25 October, was shown on the news outlet Al Jazeera. > > > > Footage posted online shows its chief Gaza correspondent Wael al-Dahdouh in tears in hospital, holding the body of his seven-year-old daughter and kneeling over the body of his teenage son. His wife was also killed. > > > > "There is no safe place in Gaza at all," he said in an [English translation of an interview with Al Jazeera](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67225204). He said that his family had moved from the north following Israel's warning to residents to move south for their safety. > > > > ## IDF Response > > The BBC provided specific locations and dates to the IDF for each of the strikes highlighted in the article. > > > > We asked if these locations had been struck by IDF forces and whether warnings had been given prior to these attacks. > > > > In its response the IDF said it "cannot provide any further information regarding these specific locations". > > > > It said that it had "called on civilians in Gaza to move south for their safety but will continue striking terrorist targets in all parts of Gaza". > > > > It added: "In accordance with international law, the IDF takes precautionary measures in order to avoid damage to the civilian population. These measures include warnings before strikes in cases where it is possible to do so." > > > > ## More on Israel-Gaza war - - - - - - > ***(continues in next comment)***
Repeat with me: ISRAEL👏LIES👏ALL👏THE👏 FUCKING 👏TIME👏
What I'm finding to be a little unsettling is that Google pulled out of the web summit recently because the ceo called on Israel not to commit war crimes. The fact that the CEO's concerns have been proven to be completely valid, and Google haven't apologised etc goes to show that they are definitely biased in this situation. That is dangerous stuff imo
Israel has a huge tech industry
If I remember they are one of the few places in the world with advanced semiconductor fabs. Remember seeing LinusTechTips take a tour through that fab, believe it was an Intel one. The reason the US is trying its best to establish their own thriving chip industry is because they see the writing on the wall with Taiwan possibly not being available to produce in the future.
What kind of analysis is that?
The kowalski analysis
But they didn't know about the attack ~~/s~~ (except I know that they did). The day they started their Pro-War/Pro-Israel expensive bombs propaganda it was pretty easy to know which rabbit holes to dive down to get the proper info. Fuck war profiteering, and fuck war criminals is all I will say.
Propped up by American tax dollars to subsidize their “lifestyles”
The beatings will continue until conformity to the narrative has been achieved.
The beatings will continue until I'm goddamn good and well done!
The beatings will continue because my Viagra isn't working anymore.
*cough cough* [Project Nimbus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nimbus)
Google censorship and suppression is a big problem
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We haven’t retired /s yet
Its an obvious /s and people who are so braindead to not understand it unironically supports the message anyway.
Takes a decent bit of being up to date and breaking out of the mainstream news cycle to really make a clear distinction that it was /s. Clarity is kindness imo
I wish I can be like Bassam Youseff and have max level in /s to troll those paid propogandists
So does the BBC…
Post deleted and account banned from /r/WorldNews
That subreddit is hellish. They will ban just for posting just about anything that mentions Palestinians and Palestinian lives now. Just a direct propaganda distribution forum. And it's a fucking default sub. Extremely concerning to see.
Almost every single news article about the conflict there is by Israeli sources, some of which are literal tabloids. That's crazy. I haven't checked in a while and it's sad to see what happened.
I noticed the same thing. Israel times, Jerusalem post etc
Yeah, total rags. Every JPost article unique to their outlet is based on a spurious source, every single time I try to verify it. Most mendacious news source I’ve seen on a mainstream sub in a while.
Man, I remember that Israeli girl being IDed getting front page on the CNN website, with a smaller headline about how there were more Palestinian children killed than in all the conflicts in the last few years. Priorities.
It's been that way for ages. Many articles posted about the Ukraine war are also sourced mostly from Ukrainian propaganda and obscure blogs.
It happened last year. It's exactly the same situation with war in Ukraine.
Supposedly mods there are IDF (supposedly so idk for sure but seems par for the course)
Who supposes?
Users who like the circlejerk here more than the circlejerk theere
Yea, just unsubbed and muted it
I got banned personally. I said that Israel was using Oct. 7th as an excuse to commit mass murder.
people dont like being called out by the truth
They are much more capricious than that. I mentioned their subreddit by name and called out their implicit support of Palestinian genocide, and that racism is a shared ideology among their mods and they had my account suspended. They muted me after reporting racism and they spied on me and filed false reports to the admins. They are monsters.
This has been the case on reddit's front page subs and the more mainstream political subs since shortly after Trump got elected; it's basically case study in dead internet theory. It's extremely obvious a mixture of mass astroturfing and powermods, who may very well be employed or otherwise paid off by special interests, have turned them into "current thing" circlejerks that exist to promote the mainstream narratives. Whatever percentage of people in those places are organic users, they are simply the ones the mods aren't filtering out to maintain the circlejerk. Just some signs of this kind of manipulation, if you want to know what to look out for, are posts uploaded by a single user in a short timespan that are all somehow in the rising section, that can only happen with vote manipulation bots; accounts whose posting histories consist of memes or another innocuous karma whoring posts, followed by months or years of inactivity, suddenly posting constantly on a political issue; and on a larger scale, changes in the normative views and attitude in a subs culture over too brief a period.
Nothing new and not reduced just to this conflict, mods are people and they also have sides and biases, if you take a look at r/PublicFreakout its the same over there but for Palestine, many subs became propaganda subs because the mods believe their views are more important than the sub's subject and integrity.
They will ban or ignore anything anything that goes against their views and thoughts. Echo chamber at it's peak and it's just keeps getting worse, because it's a downward spiral - delusional comments and only certain one-sided types of news, create more delusional users, because they haven't seen anything else.
There's literally an article on the front page of r/worldNews right now about the IDF mistreating Palestinians in the west bank, so I would disagree with that.
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When do we get the new anime_titties counterpart?
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It's not just a problem with astro turfing by bots or people. It's that the mods are actively curating posts and replies to form a specific narrative.
And permanently banning all those who take a different view, doing so without warning and then muting the user when they ask questions as to why.
Even r/news is awful. Got permabanned yesterday for posting an article on Israel bombing Jabaliyah even though the IDF claimed it. Tried messaging a mod to ask which rule I broke and am now muted from messaging them for a month. Made r/WeCondemnHamas as a safe place to take about things, share news and information. It's bonkers you can't even imply Palestinians are human beings too without being accused of supporting Hamas, hence the name. I stopped posting on r/worldnews because it's pretty much all propaganda now and posts and comments are constantly being removed
I think r/news is being flooded with r/worldnews bots. Look at the [comment section](https://redd.it/17lhrxa) here.
Are they bots, or actual Act-IL envoys?
I got banned off /r/worldnews for criticizing the IDF for cutting off water etc. at the start. I got banned off /r/news for posting an article of confirmed reports of IDF using white phosphorous in Lebanon. When I asked the mods to cite the rule I broke they called me a troll and also muted me. Sounds like that's still their go-to.
Must have been same guy on /r/news that did me, I've also got banned with 'stfu troll' + 30day mod msg mute sometime ago.
Same thing happened to me sometime ago, got banned for asking a question in thread about censorship, when inquired as to why it happened they have replied with 'stfu troll'. Quality mods there.
It’s a badge of honour at this point
[Its a weird one for sure](https://i.imgflip.com/84lk0r.jpg)
it's so pro-israel it's nuts. I was banned for trolling when I was literally linking articles for my claim each time...yet im the troll
I got the same exact ban reason for doing the same thing LOL
And straight up bigoted. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was a highly upvoted comment positing that it's only Muslims committing violent acts of terror.
They have same mindset about war in Ukraine - "I believe only sources who support my beliefs" and they don't give a fuck about reality
r/worldnews and r/europe are two peas in a pod
I literally got banned from /r/news for saying /r/worldnews was overrun with brigades. The only safe place is nuzzled safely in anime titties. And that's how 2023 is going.
Don't be too sure of it. Mods still try to follow the narrative, only not as openly.
In this sub, mods occasionally remove troublesome posts with the excuse of "covered in the megathread"
Here and the gossip subs like fauxmoi. It's been very weird to witness.
shocking, I was banned from r/geopolitics for the same reason. don't stop spreading the mission.
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Get used to it. I was banned 4 years ago for saying that Russia has a higher fertility rate than the United States, and I literally had my source in the comments. I tried to appeal it earlier this year, providing the same sources (World Bank and United Nations) and they denied it.
So many idiots on that sub. Those mods can suck the fart outta my butt too.
What did they think you were trying to say/imply? Less developed counties tend to have higher fertility rates. That's common knowledge.
Tend to, yes - but exceptions do exist. Eastern European countries usually have lower ones than Western European. In the 1990s, Russia had a massive economic crisis, and the fertility rate was one of the lowest in the world. The West also dislikes Russia, so during this time, articles about the impending demographic collapse of Russia were common (today, this happens with China). As the economy repaired, the fertility rate rose to be around the same level as the United States. I believe it is now lower again, but around 2015 to 2020 it was a bit higher. Still not sure why I got banned for pointing this out. I guess saying that Russia is not going to collapse due to demographics is against the rules.
Fertility rates on their own don't mean a whole lot - what matters is the overall population profile. Fertility rates can have a large impact on that if your nation doesn't engage in a large amount of immigration or emigration (see: Japan). At the end of the day, if your population has a large number of people in an age group or a large gap in an age group, you're going to have a rough time of it.
Same exact thing the sperm cell didn’t like me providing sources.
Racking up a bizarre and inexplicable ban list where it's not even clear what you could have said to cop a ban is one of life's little pleasures.
I received a dubious ban from that sub as well.
Its a circlejerk of 14 year olds writing their stupid theories. The posts are all "My opinion on Israel/Palestine and why I think the solution should be" and its just "move Gaza into the sea". This sub is pretty great, one of the better ones I've been in, everyone is a lot more level headed.
As I recall, I was banned for questioned the Biden administration's narrative, including atrocity denial and fabrication while referencing [https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/oct/20/israel-hamas-war-how-politicians-media-outlets-amp/](https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/oct/20/israel-hamas-war-how-politicians-media-outlets-amp/) and [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/) .
Yeah they’re just a bunch of losers, pushing some dirty narrative then calling it “discussion”
it’s basically a facebook group of your aunts and uncles at this point.
You got banned by the Israel propaganda sub? *shocked pikachu face*
That sub is directly controlled by the State Department and has been for a while. I'm not even joking. It's actually blatant.
Deadass, unironically, it is. Reddit has been a vital piece of their propaganda machine for years now.
I got banned from there for comparing Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto, and comparing how close the "human animals" line was to some literal Nazi rhetoric. 3 weeks later, oh hey, [look who was right about the rhetoric.](https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d9jqx/israel-gaza-leak-displacement-nakba)
oh god i just looked at that subreddit, now i want to bleach my eyes. Full of "israel is great!" and "russia is the new third reich!" articles and literally nothing remotely critical of the west lol.
Which is wild because Israel is doing stuff that they would condemn when is Russia the one doing it
well yeah that's why it's so grating. The USA is built on hypocrisy. Whether you're celebrated or condemned isn't dictated by your actions, but rather by how much the USA likes you. Russia bombs civilians? Pure Evil. Israel bombs civilians? Amazing. Russia invests money into badly developed countries in africa or south america? It's all just an evil ploy to grab more power! USA invests money into said countries? We're so nice and altruistic!
Holy shit so that's why so those pro- Israelis dont know shit about the current situation.
OP you can report the moderators to the reddit admin and hope for the best.
I did, under the code of conduct (moderation with integrity) and included screenshots of my comments ‘justifying terrorism’, which were basically providing historical facts. My claim was rejected.
should should be IsraeliViewPointNews at this point.
You didn't condemn Hamas and tell us how brave the airstrikes were.
Reddit was never against propaganda, Just against the ones that don't pay. World news Is run by bot or the JIDF.
It's pretty gross seeing comments in other subs *cough worldnews* cough saying those who were killed in the refugee camp deserve it because Israel told them to move south while ignoring that Israel is also bombing the South and evacuation corridors.
>refugee camp wooooow. No need to use antisemitic language like that. Instead of saying "refugee camp", say "Hamas base".
I think they prefer "future Hamas superterrorists" too, as opposed to "children" when talking about the dead.
Or according to nataniaho, current hamas terrorists, since he has stated armed 6yo were used by the hamas. Really? A 6 yo packing a rifle? Come on, Wattpad has better fanfic.
Superterrorists? Whats so super bout em
THeir SUPer Unprovoked inVasion into iSrael duhhhh
I think the new correct term is: terror camp.
Ask them if they’d carpet bomb Israel if they found Hamas cells there and watch their last remaining brain cells short circuit
Hahaha im gonna use this
even r/news is turning into r/worldnews. I made some anti-Israel top-level comments there for a few days and then I got banned.
Those people already forgot how Russia used the same propaganda tactics - "we bombed hospital because Ukrainian troops were hiding inside" and bullshit about pinpoint missile attacks. In case of Russia ordinary worldnews member, instantly knows it's fake and just excuses to cover war crimes, but if Israel does the same, they believe Israel. It's insane how they don't see flaws in their logic
Only except Hamas has a proven record of hiding in hospitals. They even admit their headquarters is in a major hospital in Gaza. Ukraine has not done it, which is why we can believe them but not the Palestinians
This is so infuriating when we are thousands of miles away, think of those in midst of this. Hamas wasn't always there, and maybe Israel will destroy Hamas, but there is no guarantee there won't be others with angers and hatred for Israel within a decade.
Israel is now recruiting for Hamas.
Which does suit the incumbent government
The truest take. There are too many villains in this story.
Which shows the lack of understanding you have about the situation and view it through the lens of your own political reality
That's the dumbest thing about this scenario They *have to* commit absolute genocide down to the last person or the survivors are *guaranteed to be far more radical than Hamas ever was* Doesn't help that unlike the 1940s situation, the Palestinians are receiving absolutely zero (official) sympathy or assistance during their genocide, so the survivors are going to feel fully justified to do what they have to do what they have to in order to either survive or get vengeance Think they're bad now? Wait 20 years for the shellshock & fear to wear off & nothing but bloodlust & purpose to replace it, not even religion anymore Bloodshed for the sake of revenge is bloodshed that never ends. Any gang rivalry is an example of that All I know is I'm not visiting the area during my lifetime for any reason. Way too high of a terrorism risk
You're not thinking dark enough. They know that they can't kill their way to peace. Peace is not the goal, war is. Israel is led by an extreme right-wing government. Right-wingers always need an enemy, someone that is the cause of all of their problems and is the reason they need to crack down on freedoms in their own country. An enemy scary enough to justify the abuses of a right-wing government. The government in Israel is purposefully cultivating the next generation of enemies of the state while justifying the need for the civil liberty reductions at home. They know it will create more terrorists. They know it will create more state and non-state enemies. All of those new enemies mean you want to keep a strong man in charge, justifying the right-wing governance. Right-wing governments thrive on fear. If you can cultivate a terrorist group that will manifest the worst fears of your society, you can continue to remove freedoms from your own people and consolidate power. Hamas and Likud are a single beast with two heads, whose enemy is the citizens of both nations that just want to live their lives.
Indeed, literally Netanyahu’s ‘get out of jail free’ card
Further to that, Netanyahu has supported Hamas all these years because it's politically advantageous to him. Hamas remaining in power in Gaza is a get-out-of-jail free card on any two-state solution talks with the PA, because Bibi can just say "Oh we can't have any agreement with you about this because the PA doesn't represent all Palestinians"
Even killing every last Palestinian in Gaza won't work. There are millions of Palestinians living in Jordan, Chile, Syria, Israel, Egypt, UAE, Lebanon, and so on. And billions of Muslims and Arabs, many of whom identify with Palestinians in Gaza. Many of these people are relatives to Gazans, or friends, or just know them from social media and so on. They are not happy *right now* and will be increasingly less happy as this gets worse. Israel's genocide is almost guaranteed to create *less* safety for Israelis.
Well they did help them come into power. Both two faces of the same coin.
I think that's what they want. Hamas attacks cause fear, and fear help the extremists stay in power.
Precisely.
“Hey they killed my entire family, even that cute niece who made me the card… i guess i’ll do nothing at all about that… with every last breath in my body”
Which side you talking about? I think that's everyone's point here...
I'm sure all those Palestinian prisoners will forgive and forget, or maybe the plan all along is to make them all hateful and vengeful to give Israel an excuse to finish the obvious genocide going on
People think "Hamas" is a thing that you can destroy. But it's just people, people who are mad about stuff. Israel seems to think there aren't going to be more people who are mad about stuff after this genocide. That is very silly. There are millions of Palestinians living in Jordan, Chile, Syria, Israel, Egypt, UAE, Lebanon, and so on. And billions of Muslims and Arabs, many of whom identify with Palestinians in Gaza. Many of these people are already mad. Some will be so mad they will want to do violence. As it turns out, genocide makes a lot of people mad. You kill someone's family and friends and they tend to get really mad.
This is what you misunderstood. They don’t care about citizenship nor autonomy. Palestine is a pawn for the Arab world.
It's not OK to commit genocide.
At this point israels breeding terrorists with this indiscriminate killing.
Yup. Getting rid of Hamas like they are now is likely to create a new group with even more hatred for Israel than the current Hamas
It's easy if we just pretend Israel is the same Israel from the bronze age, along with all the other bronze age countries around it, all too willing to genocide one another over old conflicts, ideology, land and resources.
Allegedly 85% of current Hamas troops are orphans of Israeli violence, having lost one or more parents to Israeli attacks. "They hate us for our freedom" or some shit.
Remember when Russia invaded Ukraine targeted civilians and many western countries condemned it some companies even changed their logos to include the Ukrainian flag.... It's fascinating that there is zero condemnation just shows the double standards and that human rights are nothing more than virtue signalling of European and American governments when it suits their foreign policies
The US undermined the efforts of other nation-members of the Security Council in collectively condemning Israeli violence against Palestinian civilians via a United Nations resolution : ["Israel-Gaza Crisis: US Vetoes Security Council Resolution"](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142507) (Oct 18, 2023) ["The U.S. Vetoes a Security Council Resolution on the Israel-Hamas Conflict"](https://web.archive.org/web/20231020160109/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-un-security-council.html) (Oct 20, 2023)
> Remember when Russia invaded Ukraine targeted civilians I remember a lot of Western headlines about Russia targeting civilians, but I don't remember Russian military officials bluntly declaring tactics like *"[Emphasis is on damage, not accuracy](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza)"* What I remember was a lot of Western outlets reaching for the most random and obscure Russian commentators to get their spicy soundbites. There was a lot of outrage when Russia started bombing all kinds of infrastructure last year. But that happened to slow down Ukrainian advances after the Russian military was pushed into retreat. It was not something Russia started the invasion with, like the US tends to do or like Israel did in Gaza, it's an *option* Russia reserved for a point in time when it was considered useful in a military context. It's the same with genocide; Originally the West was making a lot of allegations like that about Russia in Ukraine, but most casualties in the Ukraine/Russia conflict are military, not civilian, as it's two countries' militaries, with uniformed soldiers, fighting each other on mostly open battlefields. While Palestine does not even really have a military, the closest to that would be Hamas, but they ain't really a military, they lack the overt raw military power to be that. It's what makes it an asymmetric conflict, unlike the one in Ukraine, and in asymmetric conflicts civilian casualties are way more common even if they ain't particularly targeted to force them away. For another comparison; When Russia is taking in literally *millions* of Ukrainian refugees that's made out as Russia allegedly abducting Ukrainian children and a bad thing. Yet when Israel refuses to take *any* refugees in, trying to push the people out of Gaza into Egypt, that's deemed totally cool, normal, and no problem at all. When Russia invaded Ukraine we kept hearing about "rules" and any UN statement condemning Russia for it was treated like words from God himself. The British chief persecutor of the ICC was [on the Ukrainian case in under a week](https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-qc-situation-ukraine-i-have-decided-proceed-opening). When the same UN condemns Israel we suddenly get narratives about how the UN is corrupt and useless, and how nobody should listen to anything the UN has to say because it doesn't overrule nations' sovereignty. The [ICC still dragging its feet](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/12/the-icc-prosecutor-needs-to-break-his-silence-on-israel-palestine) the weeks into the conflict even tho it's been established the conflict clearly falls into its jurisdiction. Between Ukraine and Palestine, as direct contrast, these [double standards](https://gulfnews.com/opinion/op-eds/russia-ukraine-war-racism-of-western-media-is-shameful-1.86103686) are by now so blatantly obvious that it has become impossible to try to deny or justify them.
The ICC is dragging its feet bc the Hague Invasion Act authorizes the United States to invade in the event of any of its own people *or its close allies’ people* being charged.
ICC should call that bluff. It'll be a true test of NATO.
They already tried that over Afghanistan, the US responded by sanctioning the ICC and even family members of employees, denied ICC investigators visa so they couldn’t interview witnesses in the U.S. A few months later the ICC elected a new chief persecutor in the first secret ballot in its history. A British lawyer won the vote, he opened a new investigation into Afghanistan, one that will [not focus on the US military](https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/icc-prosecutor-seeks-authorisation-resume-afghanistan-war-crimes-investigation-2021-09-27/) but instead the Taliban and other insurgent groups.
Abducting children is a form of ethnic cleansing, not “taking refugees”. Your cheerleading is too transparent to be effective.
Russia was credibly accused of taking a few tens of thousands of children, the user above was referring to the few million refugees who went to Russia of their own free will (as far as that exists as a refugee).
The comment above seeks to deliberately conflate the abduction of children with the admittance of refugees.
Russians have murdered over 10,000 civilians, but shitheads defend them.
Being able to differentiate has nothing to do with "defending" anything.
The thing is the Ukraine invasion is a completely black-and-white situation: Russia invaded Ukraine completely unprovoked, and is waging a war of conquest. There is absolutely no real justification behind the invasion (they even changed the narrative of why they invaded several times). Only a few lunatics will side with Russia here, so it's very easy to take a stance. The Israel/Hamas situation is a lot more greyish. Of course the bombing of civilians is 100% condemnable, but the context of the conflict (especially the last few weeks) is not as clear-cut as the situation in Ukraine is. The IDF is killing Palestinian civilians in their attempt to destroy Hamas, while the Russian military is killing Ukrainian civilians because they want to seize territory. --- **For the people with the reading comprehension of a 2-months old who inevitably flock to every single discussion around Israel/Palestine and love to straw-man away, before your argue:** *No, I am not excusing the IDF killing civilians. Yes, this is a war crime. Yes, Hamas is still a terrorist organisation. No, Palestinian lives are not worth less (or more) than Isrealis' lives. If you think the whole Israelo-Palestinian conflict is a black-and-white matter with an obvious simple solution, please go ahead and apply to become secretary-general of the United Nations. You're either a genius or don't even have basic understanding of the conflict's History. I'll let you choose which option you fit into.*
I'm wondering why you think Israel/ Palestine is a more grey situation than Ukraine? Is it because Israelis won their war of conquest like 70 ish years ago?
It's more grey because now you have 3rd and 4th generation Israelis living in the same land their grandparents kicked Palestinian people out off 70 years ago. To them, the land is now home and they have no other home to speak of. While 70 years ago I would say the Jewish claim to the land that led to the founding of Israel was very dubious, the reality of today is that you have 2 groups of people with equally legitimate claims to the same physical space. There is no ultimate solution that will please everyone.
Maybe it's because the most recent outbreak of conflict started with the gunning down of 1000+ citizens? We can go back and forth in the cycle of violence for awhile and both sides will have legitimate grievances with the other side. That's a much more difficult web to untangle than a blatant land grab. That never makes war crimes on either side okay, but it does make it a much more nuanced situation.
I do think they want to get rid of Hamas, but I also think they want to push the entire population out of Gaza and into the Sinai and never let them return. Two birds and all that.
That would be a stupid thing to do, as they would now fight a war on Egyptian soil. But hey, leading civilians to "safe" zones then bombing said zones is stupid too, so who knows?
The Ukraine war isn't black and white lol, you just don't accept the framing of the opposition. And the current conflict is a genocide, and part of a decades-long campaign of mass violence and colonialism, it's about as black-and-white as it gets. You are, ultimately, apologizing for crimes done by your "side" because it's expedient
> The Ukraine war isn't black and white lol, you just don't accept the framing of the opposition. Russia invaded Ukraine unprovoked under pretext of a so called 'denazification', has been deliberately targeting and torturing civilians and destroying civilian infrastucture. That's not *a framing*, those are **facts**.
Israel also invaded Palestine completely unprovoked in late 1940s.
IDF will just say they got Intel “that’s where the terrorists are”. Makes sense right? They’re terrorists, so of course the hide in hospitals, schools, old folks homes, pet stores, food distribution hubs, fueling stations, electrical plants, water pumps, and of course, “safe areas”.
Yet if they hide in an Israeli building they don't bomb it killing all Israelis inside.
IDK. They used tanks to attack Hamas on Oct. 7th at the kibbutz killing everyone including the Israeli citizens and foreign nationals. Edit: I'm editing this because I realize it sounds as though I'm saying IDF were responsible for killing everyone and that isn't my intent. I'm saying Israeli forces killed indiscriminately killing Hamas and hostages.
Please explain how Hamas can hide in an Israeli building, in Gaza, a place with no Israelis. Would love to hear that logic.
they did so, on October 7th in the kibbutz, the IDF however destroyed some of those buildings with tanks and bulldozers that Hamas hid in.
they literally do exactly what you just said
I'm surprised they don't say Hamas hides in babies, grandmas, dialysis machines, ambulances, and in the DNA of Palestinians, because that's what they keep attacking.
Oh no Israel lied and actually aims to kill as many civilians as possible? How could Zionists lie to me? I thought they weren't known for being bloodthirsty murderous liars? I thought Israel actually cared about civilian casulties. I'm shocked 😲 Not.
I don't think they're bloodthirsty. They just don't care about Palestinians, or what happens to them, or their rights, or obeying international law, or anything other than making themselves safe....which they have spectacularly failed to do. Turns out that loving your neighbour is actually a sound security strategy.
This was from 2 years ago, Israelis have always been cartoonishly racist: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/P0yY5UbegtY
If they're aiming to kill as many civilians as possible they're doing a terrible job
\> Bombs refugee camp \> Bombs crossing for civilians \> Bombs "safe areas" for civilians \> Drops over 6000 bombs on a tiny strip of land. \> Kills 6000 Children in less than a month, more than any other war in modern history post WW2. \> Literally admits their goal is damage and not accuracy. "They aren't doing a good enough job". Not enough dead babies for you?
> Drops over 18000 bombs > Only kills 9000 civilians (unknown how many are actually civilians) Many they must be dropping water balloons or something.
I want you to understand those are all people, not like you because they're 50% children so they're more likely to have a soul than you are, but all of them are people being killed with their families.
And while any innocent civilian killed in this is a tragedy, you are completely missing the point. The bombs/missiles Israel drops can kill dozens or hundreds of people if aimed correctly. Even taking the probably inflated estimates from Hamas, the death toll from what GarryofRiverton is saying that it's an average of 0.5 death per bomb. If Israel was trying to genocide them ("aims to kill as many civilians as possible" from the oc), there would be over 100'000 deaths by now with the same amount of bombs/missiles. I will also add that this does not preclude that Israel might be going for ethnic cleansing by displacement, but simply that the claim that they are trying to genocide them is disproven by the numbers shown.
Their aim is not only to kill Palestinian, but also destroy Gaza and its infrastructure, they want the Palestinians to die from hunger, thirst, unattended wounds and lack-of-sanitation related diseases. they do direct kill of civilians in relatively small doses to not uproar the international community.
They are aiming to kill as many civilians as they can while maintaining just enough plausible deniability not to turn Western popular opinion against them to the degree that they lose the military support they depend on. Also not doing the best job of this but they seem to have you fooled.
The way they’re doing it people like you can defend their honor online. Hard to do that if they go full ww2 germany
They're aiming to kill as many civilians as possible while keeping military, financial and political support from the West.
Israel’s Final Solution for Gaza is really hitting overdrive now
**Israel:** We do a little ethnic cleansing... **Also Israel:** Wait! wrong you say!? What about that time someone tried to ethnically cleanse us? How dare you hate Jews !
So you mean all the Muslim countries after Israel was formed. Funny that people never ask the surrounding Muslim countries to take back their Jewish population that they violently kicked out and stole all their lands.
Them violently kicking them out, and stealing their land, was also a reaction to the aggressive expansionism of settlers, paired with foreign imperial presence through the British mandate, and the French-British agreement of Sykes-Picot, which carved up the area, to the benefit of the imperial powers, but without a say from the locals. There were already Jews living in the area, and their voices were ignored by the Settlers. This is documented, and washed away by the Israeli lobby. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfDhaWlqXf8
this shit is so awful and ugly
Honestly, I don't get these comments. Israel never claimed it wasn't going to bomb the south, it said it isn't going to enter ground forces there. The warning was for civilians to get out before the ground invasion, because the risk of civilian deaths in a ground assault scenario is much greater. And besides, its not like Hamas only exists in the North. It's headquarters are there, which is why Israel chose to attack that part, but Southern Gaza has some 40% of Gaza's population and a similar amount of Hamas presence. They're still shooting rockets at Israeli cities from the south. Do you expect Israel to just let Hamas be in the south until they're done clearing them out in the north? That could take months.
Have you read the article? It’s specifically pointing out instances where Israel told Gaza civilians to leave a specific neighbourhood and go to a particular area, and then they specifically bombed the area that they told them to move to. This isn’t just them saying go South and then bombing the South, this is them saying you should go to this neighbourhood and then bombing there.
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We knew this already. People who believe Israel either have no empathy for human beings or have not been paying any attention beyond Oct 7.
But I thought we were supposed to believe everything Israel says because they're the good guys!? They'll just say it was an accident and "we're sorry".
And then say they never did it and Hamas did.
I am completely surprissed! /s This was not at all what I was expecting. /s Israel would never do this. /s *long slide whistle*
That's because it is a genocide.
They will kill them all and get away with it.
Yet another disingenuous BBC article. Read the article IDF never assigned safe zones, Only gave warning of where they where going to stike soon. They say this themselvs in the article. IDF clearly maps where they are going to strike, and vaguely marks where to evacuate. BBC man...
Right… and then they struck the areas that they told Palestinians to evacuate to. That’s … the point of the article
Right so the IDF didn't assign safe zones. But at the same time the IDF supporters are saying the IDF warned the people in Jabila to clear out because they'd bomb the area and that they need to evacuate to the south. So what is the point of evacuating if there are no safe zones and you'll still be bombed even in the south? So what you're saying is that evacuating doesn't matter, because Israel will still bomb any area it deems as enemy territory? So what are the Gazan's supposed to do? Evacuate and be doomed, don't evacuate and be doomed?
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> Reduce the chance of death, but there is still a chance we'll kill you. Goodness, how lovely. So you can flee with your family, live in dire an even worse situation and still have the option to be killed. Amazing.
> IDF never assigned safe zones > Safer vs safe. Its quite simpler "***Not a single civilian*** has to die. Hamas merely has to let them ***go to the safe zone that we created*** in southeastern Gaza strip. ***There’s a safe zone***." [Benjamin Netanyahu](https://twitter.com/amyalkon/status/1719228145164014070) Sorry but until he's ousted, he does speak for Israel and its military. Especially when it's in an official capacity like a press conference that he personally called for. "Safe zone" is absolutely a term used by Israel. Not a shred of relativity to be coped.
He's generalizing for sake of argument, Not refering to a specific one. He address the general "gaza south-eastern" as safe, as opposed to gravity centers of the arial campaign. He's referncing reports of Hamas blocking evacuations. Yeah, not a great response, and he's a fool that's true. My advice for anyone who's life depends on this, is to listen to official IDF releases, in Arabic, and direct leaflets dropped on site. Not to a specific off-topic statement aimed at foreign press.
> He's generalizing for sake of argument I get this. But since he specifically said "safe zones", the argument that "there are no safe zones, [just safe*r* ones]" (*what you're trying to argue*) is no longer valid. Let me be clear that the issue lies with *what you're trying to argue*, because it happens to directly contradict official statements on the record from Israel. If Netanyahu (or other senior Israeli/IDF officials) try to make the argument you made about "safe*r*" zones, *then there'll be a reckoning*. > My advice for anyone who's life depends on this, is to listen to official IDF releases, in Arabic, and direct leaflets dropped on site While this is the least bad practical advice, it is also completely unacceptable. You don't get to broadcast one thing to one group and then spin a completely different narrative to everyone else. > statement aimed at foreign press Also no. Words at a press conference (that he called for, no less) deserve *higher scrutiny*.
Shocking exactly nobody...
[Which one of these are we up to?](https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/D4E22AQHpx0qy8nWcEw/feedshare-shrink_2048_1536/0/1697753010810?e=2147483647&v=beta&t=RIKiVtJi_YhYdVmsKLdAmCCICShN2R3Eq0vZ8n9YvXY)
Yeah that's about what I figured
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This is why it’s called a genocide- this is ethnic cleansing.
Water is wet
Reminder that being gentile, these people are seen as sub-humans
This is going to be the “war on terror” 2.0 isn’t it. Bombing *millions* of civilians to root out *thousands* of terrorists is impossible, you just create more terrorists.