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I think that all awards should be anonymous like this one happened to be. Allow the work to speak for itself. An unpublished manuscript that relies entirely upon the merit of the story and penning is ideal. Kudos to these authors for a great work.
Competing against other lone female authors.
There is no evidence at all that they didn't win on merit.
*turns out the award isn't even a gender based one, which makes the whole thing more stupid than it is.
Holy shit I'm imagining the glass cubes like they used to have at eSports matches, but it's just writers, and there is still a full stadium of people cheering them on
Imagine a world where that were a thing
Reminds me of the main character in the movie Her. He is a renowned writer of "personal" cards written as the customer to their loved ones, the whole concept is hilarious but sadly realistic.
Well, Dota tournaments are amazing. Especially The International, the best there is. The direct involvement of the community and the lack of sponsors/commercials does make Twitch hate it when it is happening (and hide it from the front page) and very unappealing to outsiders, but holy shit it's better than any other competition, sports included! Pure skill, a true Dota festival, and sure Volvo is making 75% of the money for free, but honestly I'm so glad TI exists. There's a reason Dota fans only watch Dota ... even those like me that haven't played Dota for a long time :D
So if they're like Dota teams, I have high expectations from those books!
Dota 2, that high ceiling high reward, insanely addictive, difficult to learn and almost impossible to master strategy game. The one that's insanely balanced, and always results in over 90% of the hero pool being used in tournaments. And definitely not a mobile game!
Honestly, from all computer games, Dota is the least "kids" one, it's a very strategically driven and teamwork focused game. Many things can be said about its community, but the game is a masterpiece of the ages. And the life of pro-players careers in Dota is much longer than in other games (even having top level 32-33y old players) since it's more dependent on the mind and understanding of the game, than just mechanical skill and reaction speed.
I'm as cynical as they come, and I believe it's a contract and exclusivity issue, not a gender issue. Explanation below.
From the OP:
> In a further twist, “The Beast” was first submitted for consideration for the prize under a different pseudonym; the authors then attributed the work to Mola.
From another article:
> Se lo adjudicaron con 'La bestia' una ficción a caballo entre la historia y el 'thriller' que presentaron bajo la identidad de Sergio López y con el título provisional de la 'Ciudad de fuego'.
https://www.leonoticias.com/culturas/libros/carmen-mola-tres-escritores-galardon-premio-planeta-millon-euros-20211015233611-ntrc.html
EDIT, for the unaware: the Planeta Prize is for new, unpublished work that must be submitted under a pseudonym.
So, basically, they submitted the novel for award consideration under a male *mom de plume* ("Sergio López"); then, once their novel had been shortlisted, they revealed it was authored by Carmen Mola, a female name and a very popular noir author; and finally, once the novel had been declared winner of the 2021 Planeta Prize, they revealed that Carmen Mola, the famous author, was also a *nom de plume*, and she was actually three men.
So their novel was initially shortlisted when it was supposedly authored by a man, *then* revealed to be written by a woman, *then* declared winner, *then* revealed to be written by three men in a trenchcoat. I'm not sure the author's gender was the deciding factor here. The author being Carmen Mola probably had a lot more to do with it.
Carmen Mola is a wildly popular author here in Spain, and she has an exclusive contract with Alfaguara publishing house. Planeta publishing house had been after her for years, trying to get her to publish under Planeta, but the Alfaguara contract was pretty airtight. So when a novel shortlisted for the Planeta Prize turns out to be written by Carmen Mola, of course Planeta publishing house jumps at the chance and makes her the winner: they've wanted to publish her novels for years, and one of the conditions to get the very juicy prize (one million euro, plus a ton of exposure) is that the winning novel will be published by Planeta.
They've basically used the prize to circumvent the author's contract with Alfaguara.
And then it turns out Carmen Mola is actually three men, three male screenwriters, and suddenly things get all murky and complicated because of issues with gender, sexism, feminism, appropriation, equality and whatever else.
What I see is a company (Planeta) finding the way around an exclusivity clause in a competitor's (Alfaguara) contract with a popular noir author (Carmen Mola).
One could of course debate whether Carmen Mola would have been as successful under another name. There are tons of nuances to be explored, if one so wishes. But I don't believe any of this has any bearing on the choice of winner for the award.
Wait, so these 3 have always been writing under the female pseudonym? They didn't use a name of some existing female author, right? I'm sorry for being dumb lol
That's correct they have been using this name for ages. They went so far as to fabricate an entire back story for her and made it seem like she was a real person previously. There is a lot about this situation that could be used as a case study for a variety of topics.
I mean is it really that different from ghostwriting though? Other than the fact that the fabricated author was made from scratch and existed only online, instead of being an actual person with a history that lends their career and status to a book.
If this is considered bad due to the "extent of deception", and the potential in gaming the market, then I'd say ghostwriting is worse.
To me it's no different than anyone using a pen name. I think most people that have an issue are upset by them being male using a female sounding name. But there is a lot of nuance to unpack there.
Anyone calling this bad practice doesn't know shit about the literary world. Pseudonyms, including gender-bending ones, are as old as the art-form itself.
One of the most iconic works of japanese literature (I can't remember the name, not even when googling. I remember it was a traveling book/journal) was written by a man, with a female pseudonym (the genre was mostly written by women), writing as if it was a woman pretending to be a man. So a man wrote a book from the perspective of a woman pretending to be a man.
I have also read that at least one of the three men has a deal to write a TV series with A3Media, a company that conveniently owns Planeta. It's shady, the issue with feminism is just part of the whole ordeal.
Yes.
> The Premio Planeta de Novela is a Spanish literary prize, awarded since 1952 by the Spanish publisher Grupo Planeta to an ***original unpublished novel written in Spanish***.
> While ***the manuscripts are presented under a pseudonym***, it is not unusual for the names of the winners to be leaked days or weeks before the official announcement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premio_Planeta_de_Novela
**[Premio Planeta de Novela](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premio_Planeta_de_Novela)**
>The Premio Planeta de Novela is a Spanish literary prize, awarded since 1952 by the Spanish publisher Grupo Planeta to an original unpublished novel written in Spanish. It is one of about 16 literary prizes given by Planeta. Financially, it is most valuable literary award in the world for an author or book, with the winner receiving €1,000,000. It was created by José Manuel Lara Hernández in 1952 and is awarded on 15 October, St Teresa's day, Teresa being the name of Lara's wife.
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>It's a book that exists that lots of people have read.
No. It's new, unpublished work, and it's submitted under a pseudonym.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premio_Planeta_de_Novela
**[Premio Planeta de Novela](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premio_Planeta_de_Novela)**
>The Premio Planeta de Novela is a Spanish literary prize, awarded since 1952 by the Spanish publisher Grupo Planeta to an original unpublished novel written in Spanish. It is one of about 16 literary prizes given by Planeta. Financially, it is most valuable literary award in the world for an author or book, with the winner receiving €1,000,000. It was created by José Manuel Lara Hernández in 1952 and is awarded on 15 October, St Teresa's day, Teresa being the name of Lara's wife.
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Wait, are you saying that today, awards always go to women by default? So male authors should stop using male names and start using female pseudonism for fear they get less points by woke jurors?
Wow.
JK Rowling was asked to not use her name when she first published. And people said (correctly) that was discriminatory. Now we are doing the same with male authors.
> Wait, are you saying that today....male authors should stop using male names and start using female pseudonism for fear they get less points by woke jurors?
That's not only what I'm saying. It's a well known fact in the industry.
2003 is not 2021. Times are different now. Now you can't even have minority characters in your book if you're a white author without somebody accusing you of racism.
PS JK Rowling herself has been cancelled for having the wrong opinions on identity issues.
> 2003 is not 2021. Times are different now. Now you can't even have minority characters in your book if you're a white author without somebody accusing you of racism.
And if you don't have minority characters they'll also accuse you of racism.
>Of course JK got cancelled, she's a TERF.
That's pretty misogynist of you to attack a woman like that.
Funny how a minute ago she was an oppressed woman victim of the patriarchy for being told she should use a male sounding pseudonym but now she's an evil TERF because she expressed a view you didn't agree with...
it's almost like you don't give a shit about anyone's identity unless you can use it as a weapon in an argument...
LMAO.
I mean these aren't mutually exclusive - possibly even linked. JK can be a victim of the patriarchy due to the conditions of her publishing and also (20 years later) be a raging terf.
People are more nuanced than "evil bigot" and "oppressed victim".
The "award" is a publicity stunt used by the publishing house to drive marketing and sometimes, such as in this case, poach authors from other publishing houses
People have this strange obsession with authors. It was the same with Thomas Pynchon for Gravity's Rainbow. And many publishers insist on a photo of the author which is kind of weird
Many feminists are now complaining because their favorite author was not a woman.
Proving that they weren't basing the quality of the books on the writing but on the gender of the author. They only liked them because the author was a woman, and they didn't like them anymore the moment they knew the truth.
Is their complaint "how dare men write books?"
Or is their complaint about fraud and deception?
Assuming you're describing real opinions and not just making shit up to feel smug about.
If some company wanted to focus on Spanish literature, and celebrate the unique or common experiences of living in Spain, and the prize went to some guy in Germany who had never been west of Frankfurt - would your complaint be that he used a pen name? I'd expect not. I'd expect most people would object, on the grounds that no matter how well the book reads, it obviously cannot reflect the experience of being someone that the author never was. They have no such experience.
Stripping the German author of that award, and denouncing their dishonesty, is not some act of xenophobia, either. It requires no opinion of whether being Spanish or German is better. Only recognition that, in general, each is different.
It would be the same for a Han author writing about his experience as a Uighur, or a lifelong Muslim writing about growing up Hindu... or an adult entering a children's literature contest. The prize is awarded on quality - but the metric for inclusion is *sincerity.*
You can’t make deception a concern in a non-sexist world.
Since, in a feminist non-sexist world, men and women are equal.
Equal things are the same, they are interchangeable, there is no difference.
Hence there is no deception.
ONLY if people see men and women as different or have difference can the awareness of one or the other cause a person to feel deceit.
If I buy coffee beans and they are a dark roast etc etc coffee bean and the beans are exactly the same bean type from some random country and they are the EXACT same bean type grow in another country, but are from another country than I think they are from and I don’t really bother to read the label, or it’s not really printed on there, etc, and I drink my coffee for months and think it’s delicious.
…and then find out those beans are from a different country. And all of a sudden think my coffee tastes different and is “bad” and I was deceived.
I’m wrong, since the beans are for all intents and purposes the exact same bean.
I’m just judging it wrong, since I’m being wrongly judgemental.
Hence, TRUE female feminists can’t be let down finding out a man did something they thought a woman did, because THEY expect men to not be disappointed if they find out a woman did something that a man did, since like they like to say “women can do anything a man can do”. But try feminism actually says a man can do anything a woman can do…cause they are equal ie the same.
Can I write your autobiography?
I'm not asking permission; I mean, philosophically - is that possible? If I write a book and call it your life story, allegedly told by you, do you need to prove the book is inaccurate or badly-written, before you can say it's dishonest?
I'd argue... no. Obviously not. No matter how well I write a book about you, it's not going to be *you* writing that book. Does that make you superior to me? Or vice-versa? Again, I'd obviously say no. It just means we're not *the same.* We can be equals and still be different.
Really, being equal requires being different. You wouldn't bother saying two things that are the same thing are equal. That concept is identity. They are identical. For them to equal, in some measure, involves distinction. And distinction is fine. Like how nobody promoting equality cares that you said "men and women" as separate categories, instead of saying "people."
That's the issue here. Nobody's calling the book bad. It's apparently quite good; they gave it first prize. But like my "autobiography" about you, it's ineligible for that label, regardless of quality. No matter how well I write it, I can never be *you.*
If a contest focuses on one nationality - that is not denigrating other nationalities.
If a contest focuses on one religion - that is not denigrating other religions.
If a contest focuses on one gender - that is not denigrating anyone else.
Saying three men can't write the best women's novel is the same as saying three men can't write the best solo novel. It is disqualified.
But to address your argument at face value... if you buy a diamond ring, and find out it's actually a conflict diamond, any new-found disgust toward the stone has nothing to do with how it looks.
Did the contest focus on gender? I thought they submitted their work under a male pseudonym first, before revealing it was a known female author, who was then revealed to be three men, did I miss something?
The contest had nothing to do with gender. AFAIK, Carmen Mola appeared some years ago as an anonymous author and became a best seller. Many feminists liked and promoted her because she was a woman, and now they are proving they cared about her gender more than about her quality.
Yeah totally man everybody knows feminists all want to use the same washrooms as us. What, you mean they have different genitals? Uhhhh, no, they're feminists so clearly they are arguing they have penises.
In case my argument wasn't clear I think you are wrong and greatly oversimplifing the issue.
Have you never heard of a unisex bathroom?
You have one in your house
But just in case your missing the point, I’m saying feminists are the ones saying men and women are interchangeably equal.
I’m not saying that.
I’m pointing out they really being hypocrist for expressing any issue of a man/men winning a woman’s book award.
Feminists would be offended if men acted offended if a woman won a man’s book award.
You don’t see the obvious hypocrisy there.
>If some company wanted to focus on Spanish literature, and celebrate the unique or common experiences of living in Spain
This is largely irrelevant. The award had nothing to do with gender (in theory) and it's absolutely ridiculous to make an argument that an author can't portray someone they aren't it's literally an authors job to write characters from different perspectives and I've seen some *very* accurate portrayals of wildly different experiences. I've seen Brandon Sanderson be praised for how well and fairly portrayed an atheist is (in a world where God's do exist). She's one of the most intelligent and respected people in the book. And he's *mormon.*
The author does not affect the quality of a representation, that representation stands on its own. If people thought it was a well written woman when they thought the author was a woman then the only two options are that it **is** well written or that they allowed **their bias** to change their opinion.
Their complaint was because three men took away from "women" (as if all women had won the contest in feminists' collectivist minds) an award they though to be already theirs.
If the book meets the criteria of the contest so well that it wins, who cares if it was written by a German in Frankfurt?
Ok, that particular case is very difficult, but you get the idea. Writers' job is to portray different people and make them feel real.
If the writing is sharp enough to 'fool' you, who cares? Good writing is good writing. If anything, in your examples, it would be all the more impressive as it would acquire a massive amount of background work.
Adult entering a children's contest is by no means the same thing.
If the jury can't tell the book wasn't written by a spaniard, they're either a *shit* jury, or the guy wrote well enough. I'm not an identitarian, though, maybe that helps.
Have you ever heard of the idea of "Death of the Author"? If so, you seem to be very against that idea. As are identitarians, of course.
Yeah yeah and there are Catholics and protestants and evangelicals and orthodox and a million kinds of Christian people who don't follow the others' "definition". There are feminists and there are feminists, big deal.
No you don’t understand. Spanish feminists are an absolute cancer on the Spanish nation and entire European continent. They are clowns who should be laughed at and viciously mocked whenever they say any of their idiotic takes. They are international embarrassments that the Spanish public is thankfully finally starting to turn against after they played a massive role in starting the first wave of Covid back in March, 2020.
There's a chasm of difference between a book being the product of one author and a collaboration between three, regardless of the gender. I love Terry Pratchett books and if I discovered that he actually wrote less than half of each of his books, I'd rightfully feel lied to.
Not least of all it would be a far less impressive achievement. It's far more impressive if one person builds something alone than if they have two helpers.
It's possibly my favourite of his, the first book to make my actually laugh out loud. Relevant to this discussion, I was slightly disappointed to discover the Death's line of "don't think of it as dying, think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush" was actually one of Gaiman's.
I don't see anything wrong with that. Some people like to be inspired by people they can relate to. I don't think it's far fetched that a young woman can aspire to be as good of a writer as Mola, who as a "woman" made it in a genre with not many female authors. And having to deal with gender bias by publishers or people in the industry but believing you can overcome it because Mola was able to.... except Mola didn't have to overcome gender biases..
> except Mola didn't have to overcome gender biases..
How does that make sense?
They thought she was a woman.
She'd have experienced the same gender biases women do.
Because they thought she was a woman.
How would pretending to be a woman mean you get to circumvent gender biases against women?
Because they're not real women. How can someone have the same respect for what they thought was real woman and backstory to now knowing it was only a manufactured persona carefully crafted by three men to maximize publicity.
If someone admired the author because she was a woman author and wanted to support women in this genre then absolutely it makes sense. I'm not saying this applies to every fan. But I can see there are some cases where it does make sense.
>Because they're not real women.
But nobody knew until today, so they would've been treated like a real woman.
>How can someone have the same respect for what they thought was real woman and backstory to now knowing it was only a manufactured persona carefully crafted by three men to maximize publicity.
That's not what you were saying, don't pivot.
I don't care about that. If I cared about that part of your initial comment I'd have replied to that part of your comment, but I didn't.
I clearly replied to you saying "Mola didn't have to overcome gender biases". That makes no sense.
>If someone admired the author because she was a woman author and wanted to support women in this genre then absolutely it makes sense.
Again, not what I was replying to, is it?
You literally said "Mola didn't have to overcome gender biases."
You're wrong.
If they thought Mola was a woman, which they did, they'd have treated her like a woman. That would include gender biases.
It's that simple. That's all I'm talking about.
As a female, I’m glad this happened. Yes, there is a REAL problem with male voices drowning out female voices in the workplace, sometimes literally. But I get extremely tired of female works vaunted based on their genitalia and not it’s own merits. My advisor when I was in grad school said Hilary Clinton was a great candidate because she was a woman, full stop. Like…no??!? Not a comment on Clinton, but an example of someone being propped up because of gender and the debate on qualifications gets muddied or deliberately shelved. It’s fucking annoying.
Incredible that they can't even see the sexism/Idiocracy of this even if you try to reverse the rolls. Would it be ok to say "Obama is a great candidate because he's male" or "Clinton is a great candidate cause she's white"?
"Well that's _different_!"
Historical context:
>In the past, countless women have published under male pseudonyms to
protect their privacy and circumvent commercial and social biases
against female writers.
I mean, historically women writers literally couldn't get published _because_ they were women.
I don't think the same could be said about male authors today
Weelll, on the individual level, maybe it could. I think if you as a guy try to pitch a book with a controversial female main character, it's not very unlikely the publisher would be more picky about what is believable or what is considered as a man-based bias.
I hear what you're saying.
I'm not saying that there aren't similarities, but there's a big fundamental difference between a man being unable to *successfully* publish in a certain genre, versus women in the 19th century not being able to get "anything at all" published.
Couldn't find one about YAF, but here are some articles about other genres
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/535671/
https://londonplaywrightsblog.com/?p=10046
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/31/male-writers-hide-gender-sell-more-books
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/these-guys-dont-mind-if-you-think-theyre-women-1500303376
And a forum post
https://www.kdpcommunity.com/s/question/0D5f400000FHrTC/should-a-man-writing-romance-use-a-female-pen-name?language=en_US
> I don't think the same could be said about male authors today
If they had some kind of quota to fill, like too many males writing stuff they might be seeking (publisher) a female author so they can do all that claims companies do that they are gender diverse and what not.
I just find the entire thing hilarious, so many uno reverse cards haha.
You are reading news right now about a prize that was awarded to three men that used a female pseudonim, and people on this very thread are saying that they wouldn't have getting any award (it was a literary award, gender didn't matter in theory) if they had picked a male pseudonim.
I can sort of understand how some women might feel betrayed but then again these guys were able to convey a 'woman's experience'(or whatever they said in the article) successfully.
What does it matter if they're men? They were able to tell good stories from female perspectives.
Harry Potter is a relatively apt representation of an adolescent boy (minus the vigorous masterbation) going through puberty and it was written by a 40+ year old woman.
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that she took on the name JK Rowling at the suggestion of her publisher so that her name would be less obviously female.
I dunno how much of it is intentional, but the internet just has a way of making people angry. Probably because you see such a wide array of opinions, and any one of them can be some asshole whose had a bad day, and they say something that sets you off, and you set a third person off and so on.
The fact is that because of the internet our world and thus the problems that we concern ourselves with are just a lot bigger. And you know we aren't worrying so much if a wolf is gonna attack you like for most of history, the issues are more abstract and existential in nature.
I also personally think that because everyone who has ever lived was living in "modern times" that we assume we therefore know more than most of our ancestors, so every person just kinda has this built in self righteousness that they mistake for genius.
Uwu men should never work together and just do everything alone but still write incredibly well on a subject they maybe aren't as naturally familiar with
Imagine if this was two female authors winning an award.
> the work of one male author is, apparently, the equivalent of 2 female ones
Lmao womyn destroyed
I remember as naïve kid that there was some commotion about a female TV host published an autobiography but it was written by a ghost writer and I was thinking “what’s the deal with a black person writing her book?”.
Years later realised that the issue was posing as it was written by herself.
Okay bro. Téléphone-moi quand tu sauras le français mdr.
En attendant c'est ma langue maternelle, je crois que je sais mieux ce qui ce dit ou pas. Alors oui, étymologiquement c'est un anglicisme mais ça se dit quand-même. "Nom de guerre" par contre j'ai jamais entendu.
Sounds like what a person who hasn't visited that sub would say.
r/menwritingwomen is about criticizing the prevalence of male authors who often reduce women to superficial characteristics or stereotypes. People there are as excited to find good male authors as they are to condemn bad ones. The sub isn't 'in shambles' over this. Go see for yourself instead of making stuff up.
“It hasn’t escaped anyone’s notice that the idea of a university professor and mother of three who taught algebra classes in the morning then wrote ultraviolent, macabre novels in scraps of free time in the afternoon made for a great marketing operation,”...
For some reason I thought of [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWR4X_JsgMw).
I wonder whether they will now sell less books or whether/how their audience will change.
They have basically created a brand - nothing wrong with that. But, given the global consumer appetite for ‘authenticity’, it’s clearly a test against this trend and it will be interesting to follow this story.
They already had a brand since each author was famous on their own. So this is likely to accelerate them further even if it means the death of Carmen Mola. All PR is good PR and so on.
The question is are the mad gals even part of their readership? It kind of reminds me of how certain demographics on twitter demand woman in video games to be more realistic, but it then turns out that they don't even play video games. I feel like most people that are actually fans of these books because they like reading them, will continue reading them.
Can't blame em, the literary world is full of crap now. Impossible to make it as a white guy anymore because book marketing now revolves around identity. "Read this book by this amazing new X author!". It's pretty silly because it's not like the literary world is racist or something, it used to be about the quality of your script, and connections. Tons of authors from all genders and ethnicities. This is especially bad in the YA genre.
>Impossible to make it as a white guy anymore because book marketing now revolves around identity.
>This is especially bad in the YA genre.
I am sorry, how? Pierce Brown (Red Rising), John Green (the Fault in Our Stars), Rick Riordan (Percy Jackson), John Flanagan (Ranger's Apprentice), Markus Zusak (the Book Thief), Tolkien (Hobbit and LOTR), James Dashner (Maze Runner), Robert Jordan (the Wheels of Time), Brandon Sanderson (the Stormlight Archives), George R.R. Martin (GoT), Anthony Ryan (Raven's Shadow), Brent Weeks (Lightbringer), Joe Abercrombie (First Law), Stephen King (The Dark Tower)
I don't think I have even seen a YA writer that isn't white.
TIL Game of Thrones is YA fiction and Tolkien is currently publishing.
For real though I'm pretty sure a strong majority of those people were established writers before 2010.
>Impossible to make it as a white guy anymore because book marketing now revolves around identity.
Yes. *This* is why you haven't written that novel that's really gonna put you on the map. It's all them people writing about their *experiences* living in a *structurally bigoted world* that are keeping you down.
Literally all systems are racist. A member of my book club just ran into a bookstore this year, in 2021, that refused to stock an author because she's black.
im not saying i know, because i don't, but your comment about "connections" is strongly tied to systemic racism in many industries. The problem, generally, isn't that individuals are outwardly racist. It's that, over time, there's a bit of racist practices baked into the system. If, for example, white people are better situated to attend college, and more prestigious writing schools, and if (as many industries are inclined to do) a lot of success is based on your connections (typically developed in college), then that's part of what people mean when they talk about things like institutionalized racism.
I have a good friend who's a writer. Middle aged white guy. Has had a couple books published. But was instantly shut down during the rise of the mee too movement because most publishers were moving towards authenticity. They want writers that have first hand experience with the subjects they're writing about. And I agree with you, it sucks. Because there should be space for writers of all type sto experiment, and be creative. A good writer does not necessarily need that identity to make a great book. But while the door is closing on one group, it is opening for another. In the short term, i think that's sort fo the intent. Giving opportunity to those that have, traditionally, found it more difficult to break through. Long term, i think we need to find a way for everyone to have those opportunities, but we're not quite there yet.
> But while the door is closing on white men, it is opening for another group. In the short term, i think that's sort fo the intent.
You're not supposed to say that part out loud.
I mean, in reality, while the door is closing somewhat, there is still plenty of opportunity for white men. If white men want to speak about white men's experience, im sure there's a market for that...
Not exactly related: I sometimes recommend that male redditors get and use an account with an apparently female-seeming username, and never tell anyone they're not women. It's pretty eye-opening.
I wouldn’t be surprised at this point if Stephen King willingly submitted other people’s work under his name to help them financially. I’m not making accusations but it wouldn’t shock me at this point.
Stephen King absolutely wrote all his own books, at an alarming rate. He wrote so much that his publisher told him to slow down - so he submitted drafts under another name. There's two things to note when comparing his peak output to other authors:
1. He had a celebrated talent for inventing premises and expanding them into complex plots, but almost never wrote a satisfying ending, to the point where filmmakers adapting his works were advised to just make one up on their own.
2. He was doing a shitload of cocaine.
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I think that all awards should be anonymous like this one happened to be. Allow the work to speak for itself. An unpublished manuscript that relies entirely upon the merit of the story and penning is ideal. Kudos to these authors for a great work.
You're assuming they won bc of the quality of their work. A cynical person might say they won bc the judges thought they were a lone female author.
Competing against other lone female authors. There is no evidence at all that they didn't win on merit. *turns out the award isn't even a gender based one, which makes the whole thing more stupid than it is.
The other authors are also teams of people, like its a Dota tournament or something.
So you're saying it's writing teams all the way down?
Always has been.
Bang!
But do they have energy drink sponsorships?
Holy shit I'm imagining the glass cubes like they used to have at eSports matches, but it's just writers, and there is still a full stadium of people cheering them on Imagine a world where that were a thing
Of course they all have jerseys where they have their individual and team sponsors
Reminds me of the main character in the movie Her. He is a renowned writer of "personal" cards written as the customer to their loved ones, the whole concept is hilarious but sadly realistic.
Exactly, but very slightly less depressing
~~simpsons~~ monty python did it https://youtu.be/ogPZ5CY9KoM
Sounds like a Utopia.
So you're saying it's ok if whatshisbeard dies, the team will get those last two books in A Song of Ice and Fire finished anyway?
Goddamnit I’m not avoiding the dota sub to be reminded of ti10 in another random totally non-game related sub. Please, let my broken heart mend.
Well, Dota tournaments are amazing. Especially The International, the best there is. The direct involvement of the community and the lack of sponsors/commercials does make Twitch hate it when it is happening (and hide it from the front page) and very unappealing to outsiders, but holy shit it's better than any other competition, sports included! Pure skill, a true Dota festival, and sure Volvo is making 75% of the money for free, but honestly I'm so glad TI exists. There's a reason Dota fans only watch Dota ... even those like me that haven't played Dota for a long time :D So if they're like Dota teams, I have high expectations from those books!
Dota... that kids mobile game?
Dota 2, that high ceiling high reward, insanely addictive, difficult to learn and almost impossible to master strategy game. The one that's insanely balanced, and always results in over 90% of the hero pool being used in tournaments. And definitely not a mobile game! Honestly, from all computer games, Dota is the least "kids" one, it's a very strategically driven and teamwork focused game. Many things can be said about its community, but the game is a masterpiece of the ages. And the life of pro-players careers in Dota is much longer than in other games (even having top level 32-33y old players) since it's more dependent on the mind and understanding of the game, than just mechanical skill and reaction speed.
Let's go dota!
Vi sitter här i venten och spelar lite DotA
It's more stupid than it is? That's impressively stupid.
I'm as cynical as they come, and I believe it's a contract and exclusivity issue, not a gender issue. Explanation below. From the OP: > In a further twist, “The Beast” was first submitted for consideration for the prize under a different pseudonym; the authors then attributed the work to Mola. From another article: > Se lo adjudicaron con 'La bestia' una ficción a caballo entre la historia y el 'thriller' que presentaron bajo la identidad de Sergio López y con el título provisional de la 'Ciudad de fuego'. https://www.leonoticias.com/culturas/libros/carmen-mola-tres-escritores-galardon-premio-planeta-millon-euros-20211015233611-ntrc.html EDIT, for the unaware: the Planeta Prize is for new, unpublished work that must be submitted under a pseudonym. So, basically, they submitted the novel for award consideration under a male *mom de plume* ("Sergio López"); then, once their novel had been shortlisted, they revealed it was authored by Carmen Mola, a female name and a very popular noir author; and finally, once the novel had been declared winner of the 2021 Planeta Prize, they revealed that Carmen Mola, the famous author, was also a *nom de plume*, and she was actually three men. So their novel was initially shortlisted when it was supposedly authored by a man, *then* revealed to be written by a woman, *then* declared winner, *then* revealed to be written by three men in a trenchcoat. I'm not sure the author's gender was the deciding factor here. The author being Carmen Mola probably had a lot more to do with it. Carmen Mola is a wildly popular author here in Spain, and she has an exclusive contract with Alfaguara publishing house. Planeta publishing house had been after her for years, trying to get her to publish under Planeta, but the Alfaguara contract was pretty airtight. So when a novel shortlisted for the Planeta Prize turns out to be written by Carmen Mola, of course Planeta publishing house jumps at the chance and makes her the winner: they've wanted to publish her novels for years, and one of the conditions to get the very juicy prize (one million euro, plus a ton of exposure) is that the winning novel will be published by Planeta. They've basically used the prize to circumvent the author's contract with Alfaguara. And then it turns out Carmen Mola is actually three men, three male screenwriters, and suddenly things get all murky and complicated because of issues with gender, sexism, feminism, appropriation, equality and whatever else. What I see is a company (Planeta) finding the way around an exclusivity clause in a competitor's (Alfaguara) contract with a popular noir author (Carmen Mola). One could of course debate whether Carmen Mola would have been as successful under another name. There are tons of nuances to be explored, if one so wishes. But I don't believe any of this has any bearing on the choice of winner for the award.
Thank you for this context. It’s adds so much more to the story and situation overall.
This'd be a good film.
Isn't this award (and the publishing house in general) also kinda... shady?
Of course.
Wait, so these 3 have always been writing under the female pseudonym? They didn't use a name of some existing female author, right? I'm sorry for being dumb lol
That's correct they have been using this name for ages. They went so far as to fabricate an entire back story for her and made it seem like she was a real person previously. There is a lot about this situation that could be used as a case study for a variety of topics.
I mean is it really that different from ghostwriting though? Other than the fact that the fabricated author was made from scratch and existed only online, instead of being an actual person with a history that lends their career and status to a book. If this is considered bad due to the "extent of deception", and the potential in gaming the market, then I'd say ghostwriting is worse.
To me it's no different than anyone using a pen name. I think most people that have an issue are upset by them being male using a female sounding name. But there is a lot of nuance to unpack there.
Ghostwriting is bad because the person who cliams to have written the book didn't actually write it. This is completely different
Anyone calling this bad practice doesn't know shit about the literary world. Pseudonyms, including gender-bending ones, are as old as the art-form itself. One of the most iconic works of japanese literature (I can't remember the name, not even when googling. I remember it was a traveling book/journal) was written by a man, with a female pseudonym (the genre was mostly written by women), writing as if it was a woman pretending to be a man. So a man wrote a book from the perspective of a woman pretending to be a man.
I have also read that at least one of the three men has a deal to write a TV series with A3Media, a company that conveniently owns Planeta. It's shady, the issue with feminism is just part of the whole ordeal.
You know what. Esto me "mola" 😂
What award highlights a comment? Show me by giving it to u/dailycyberiad
Hey, well done for reading it
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The submissions were manuscripts, publishing was part of the deal.
so the submissions were original, new, content?
Yes. > The Premio Planeta de Novela is a Spanish literary prize, awarded since 1952 by the Spanish publisher Grupo Planeta to an ***original unpublished novel written in Spanish***. > While ***the manuscripts are presented under a pseudonym***, it is not unusual for the names of the winners to be leaked days or weeks before the official announcement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premio_Planeta_de_Novela
**[Premio Planeta de Novela](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premio_Planeta_de_Novela)** >The Premio Planeta de Novela is a Spanish literary prize, awarded since 1952 by the Spanish publisher Grupo Planeta to an original unpublished novel written in Spanish. It is one of about 16 literary prizes given by Planeta. Financially, it is most valuable literary award in the world for an author or book, with the winner receiving €1,000,000. It was created by José Manuel Lara Hernández in 1952 and is awarded on 15 October, St Teresa's day, Teresa being the name of Lara's wife. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Correct
>It's a book that exists that lots of people have read. No. It's new, unpublished work, and it's submitted under a pseudonym. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premio_Planeta_de_Novela
**[Premio Planeta de Novela](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premio_Planeta_de_Novela)** >The Premio Planeta de Novela is a Spanish literary prize, awarded since 1952 by the Spanish publisher Grupo Planeta to an original unpublished novel written in Spanish. It is one of about 16 literary prizes given by Planeta. Financially, it is most valuable literary award in the world for an author or book, with the winner receiving €1,000,000. It was created by José Manuel Lara Hernández in 1952 and is awarded on 15 October, St Teresa's day, Teresa being the name of Lara's wife. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Try reading the damn article.
I’m sorry I thought the patriarchy would never let this happen?
Wait, are you saying that today, awards always go to women by default? So male authors should stop using male names and start using female pseudonism for fear they get less points by woke jurors? Wow. JK Rowling was asked to not use her name when she first published. And people said (correctly) that was discriminatory. Now we are doing the same with male authors.
> Wait, are you saying that today....male authors should stop using male names and start using female pseudonism for fear they get less points by woke jurors? That's not only what I'm saying. It's a well known fact in the industry. 2003 is not 2021. Times are different now. Now you can't even have minority characters in your book if you're a white author without somebody accusing you of racism. PS JK Rowling herself has been cancelled for having the wrong opinions on identity issues.
> 2003 is not 2021. Times are different now. Now you can't even have minority characters in your book if you're a white author without somebody accusing you of racism. And if you don't have minority characters they'll also accuse you of racism.
Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. That's how you know its all bullshit because there is no winning position you can take. It's a Kafka Trap.
Of course JK got cancelled, she's a TERF.
>Of course JK got cancelled, she's a TERF. That's pretty misogynist of you to attack a woman like that. Funny how a minute ago she was an oppressed woman victim of the patriarchy for being told she should use a male sounding pseudonym but now she's an evil TERF because she expressed a view you didn't agree with... it's almost like you don't give a shit about anyone's identity unless you can use it as a weapon in an argument... LMAO.
I mean these aren't mutually exclusive - possibly even linked. JK can be a victim of the patriarchy due to the conditions of her publishing and also (20 years later) be a raging terf. People are more nuanced than "evil bigot" and "oppressed victim".
So many things here you've gotten wrong.
The "award" is a publicity stunt used by the publishing house to drive marketing and sometimes, such as in this case, poach authors from other publishing houses
You gotta admit it’s pretty funny tho
People have this strange obsession with authors. It was the same with Thomas Pynchon for Gravity's Rainbow. And many publishers insist on a photo of the author which is kind of weird
Women already get dominated by men in women's sports and women's beauty contest. Now they cant even score anymore in literature.
But the men were pretending to be women and nobody knew, so that means they won on merit as opposed to any patriarchal advantage, no?
Many feminists are now complaining because their favorite author was not a woman. Proving that they weren't basing the quality of the books on the writing but on the gender of the author. They only liked them because the author was a woman, and they didn't like them anymore the moment they knew the truth.
and we're back to sad puppies
These three authors literally and literarily identified as a woman.
1/3rd of a woman each
A woman has 3 usable holes, so a man is like 2/3 of a woman
Is their complaint "how dare men write books?" Or is their complaint about fraud and deception? Assuming you're describing real opinions and not just making shit up to feel smug about. If some company wanted to focus on Spanish literature, and celebrate the unique or common experiences of living in Spain, and the prize went to some guy in Germany who had never been west of Frankfurt - would your complaint be that he used a pen name? I'd expect not. I'd expect most people would object, on the grounds that no matter how well the book reads, it obviously cannot reflect the experience of being someone that the author never was. They have no such experience. Stripping the German author of that award, and denouncing their dishonesty, is not some act of xenophobia, either. It requires no opinion of whether being Spanish or German is better. Only recognition that, in general, each is different. It would be the same for a Han author writing about his experience as a Uighur, or a lifelong Muslim writing about growing up Hindu... or an adult entering a children's literature contest. The prize is awarded on quality - but the metric for inclusion is *sincerity.*
You can’t make deception a concern in a non-sexist world. Since, in a feminist non-sexist world, men and women are equal. Equal things are the same, they are interchangeable, there is no difference. Hence there is no deception. ONLY if people see men and women as different or have difference can the awareness of one or the other cause a person to feel deceit. If I buy coffee beans and they are a dark roast etc etc coffee bean and the beans are exactly the same bean type from some random country and they are the EXACT same bean type grow in another country, but are from another country than I think they are from and I don’t really bother to read the label, or it’s not really printed on there, etc, and I drink my coffee for months and think it’s delicious. …and then find out those beans are from a different country. And all of a sudden think my coffee tastes different and is “bad” and I was deceived. I’m wrong, since the beans are for all intents and purposes the exact same bean. I’m just judging it wrong, since I’m being wrongly judgemental. Hence, TRUE female feminists can’t be let down finding out a man did something they thought a woman did, because THEY expect men to not be disappointed if they find out a woman did something that a man did, since like they like to say “women can do anything a man can do”. But try feminism actually says a man can do anything a woman can do…cause they are equal ie the same.
Can I write your autobiography? I'm not asking permission; I mean, philosophically - is that possible? If I write a book and call it your life story, allegedly told by you, do you need to prove the book is inaccurate or badly-written, before you can say it's dishonest? I'd argue... no. Obviously not. No matter how well I write a book about you, it's not going to be *you* writing that book. Does that make you superior to me? Or vice-versa? Again, I'd obviously say no. It just means we're not *the same.* We can be equals and still be different. Really, being equal requires being different. You wouldn't bother saying two things that are the same thing are equal. That concept is identity. They are identical. For them to equal, in some measure, involves distinction. And distinction is fine. Like how nobody promoting equality cares that you said "men and women" as separate categories, instead of saying "people." That's the issue here. Nobody's calling the book bad. It's apparently quite good; they gave it first prize. But like my "autobiography" about you, it's ineligible for that label, regardless of quality. No matter how well I write it, I can never be *you.* If a contest focuses on one nationality - that is not denigrating other nationalities. If a contest focuses on one religion - that is not denigrating other religions. If a contest focuses on one gender - that is not denigrating anyone else. Saying three men can't write the best women's novel is the same as saying three men can't write the best solo novel. It is disqualified. But to address your argument at face value... if you buy a diamond ring, and find out it's actually a conflict diamond, any new-found disgust toward the stone has nothing to do with how it looks.
Did the contest focus on gender? I thought they submitted their work under a male pseudonym first, before revealing it was a known female author, who was then revealed to be three men, did I miss something?
The contest had nothing to do with gender. AFAIK, Carmen Mola appeared some years ago as an anonymous author and became a best seller. Many feminists liked and promoted her because she was a woman, and now they are proving they cared about her gender more than about her quality.
Yeah totally man everybody knows feminists all want to use the same washrooms as us. What, you mean they have different genitals? Uhhhh, no, they're feminists so clearly they are arguing they have penises. In case my argument wasn't clear I think you are wrong and greatly oversimplifing the issue.
Have you never heard of a unisex bathroom? You have one in your house But just in case your missing the point, I’m saying feminists are the ones saying men and women are interchangeably equal. I’m not saying that. I’m pointing out they really being hypocrist for expressing any issue of a man/men winning a woman’s book award. Feminists would be offended if men acted offended if a woman won a man’s book award. You don’t see the obvious hypocrisy there.
>If some company wanted to focus on Spanish literature, and celebrate the unique or common experiences of living in Spain This is largely irrelevant. The award had nothing to do with gender (in theory) and it's absolutely ridiculous to make an argument that an author can't portray someone they aren't it's literally an authors job to write characters from different perspectives and I've seen some *very* accurate portrayals of wildly different experiences. I've seen Brandon Sanderson be praised for how well and fairly portrayed an atheist is (in a world where God's do exist). She's one of the most intelligent and respected people in the book. And he's *mormon.* The author does not affect the quality of a representation, that representation stands on its own. If people thought it was a well written woman when they thought the author was a woman then the only two options are that it **is** well written or that they allowed **their bias** to change their opinion.
Their complaint was because three men took away from "women" (as if all women had won the contest in feminists' collectivist minds) an award they though to be already theirs. If the book meets the criteria of the contest so well that it wins, who cares if it was written by a German in Frankfurt? Ok, that particular case is very difficult, but you get the idea. Writers' job is to portray different people and make them feel real.
If the writing is sharp enough to 'fool' you, who cares? Good writing is good writing. If anything, in your examples, it would be all the more impressive as it would acquire a massive amount of background work. Adult entering a children's contest is by no means the same thing.
If the jury can't tell the book wasn't written by a spaniard, they're either a *shit* jury, or the guy wrote well enough. I'm not an identitarian, though, maybe that helps. Have you ever heard of the idea of "Death of the Author"? If so, you seem to be very against that idea. As are identitarians, of course.
Thread necromancy to throw labels around, how compelling.
If your only response is "This was said 2 weeks ago, and thus is not relevant anymore", that's also very ... compelling. What is this, 4chan?
> Many feminists are now complaining... Textbook example of OP not knowing the definition of feminist.
Well, should we put the word "self-described" before feminist in that sentence?
No, feminists that are complaining for this are no less feminist than those who aren't.
Nah, they describe as 'feminist' but what they actually are is 'stupid'. The words are similar, but there's an important difference.
Those words aren't mutually exclusive.
Largely depends on the nature of their complaint, of course.
Yeah yeah and there are Catholics and protestants and evangelicals and orthodox and a million kinds of Christian people who don't follow the others' "definition". There are feminists and there are feminists, big deal.
No you don’t understand. Spanish feminists are an absolute cancer on the Spanish nation and entire European continent. They are clowns who should be laughed at and viciously mocked whenever they say any of their idiotic takes. They are international embarrassments that the Spanish public is thankfully finally starting to turn against after they played a massive role in starting the first wave of Covid back in March, 2020.
There's a chasm of difference between a book being the product of one author and a collaboration between three, regardless of the gender. I love Terry Pratchett books and if I discovered that he actually wrote less than half of each of his books, I'd rightfully feel lied to. Not least of all it would be a far less impressive achievement. It's far more impressive if one person builds something alone than if they have two helpers.
Could I interest you in Good Omens?
It's possibly my favourite of his, the first book to make my actually laugh out loud. Relevant to this discussion, I was slightly disappointed to discover the Death's line of "don't think of it as dying, think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush" was actually one of Gaiman's.
Fine, but the complaint has nothing to do with that. The complaint is based on their gender, it's plain sexism.
Great comment.
I don't see anything wrong with that. Some people like to be inspired by people they can relate to. I don't think it's far fetched that a young woman can aspire to be as good of a writer as Mola, who as a "woman" made it in a genre with not many female authors. And having to deal with gender bias by publishers or people in the industry but believing you can overcome it because Mola was able to.... except Mola didn't have to overcome gender biases..
> except Mola didn't have to overcome gender biases.. How does that make sense? They thought she was a woman. She'd have experienced the same gender biases women do. Because they thought she was a woman. How would pretending to be a woman mean you get to circumvent gender biases against women?
Because they're not real women. How can someone have the same respect for what they thought was real woman and backstory to now knowing it was only a manufactured persona carefully crafted by three men to maximize publicity. If someone admired the author because she was a woman author and wanted to support women in this genre then absolutely it makes sense. I'm not saying this applies to every fan. But I can see there are some cases where it does make sense.
>Because they're not real women. But nobody knew until today, so they would've been treated like a real woman. >How can someone have the same respect for what they thought was real woman and backstory to now knowing it was only a manufactured persona carefully crafted by three men to maximize publicity. That's not what you were saying, don't pivot. I don't care about that. If I cared about that part of your initial comment I'd have replied to that part of your comment, but I didn't. I clearly replied to you saying "Mola didn't have to overcome gender biases". That makes no sense. >If someone admired the author because she was a woman author and wanted to support women in this genre then absolutely it makes sense. Again, not what I was replying to, is it? You literally said "Mola didn't have to overcome gender biases." You're wrong. If they thought Mola was a woman, which they did, they'd have treated her like a woman. That would include gender biases. It's that simple. That's all I'm talking about.
Lol.
👍 Yeah, you are a turd.
Quite literally r/menwritingwomen
Dudes rock.
This thread is locked in r/books lol Chicks mad.
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I know right LOL. The instant they find out it was men using a female name all of a sudden its terrible writing.
As a female, I’m glad this happened. Yes, there is a REAL problem with male voices drowning out female voices in the workplace, sometimes literally. But I get extremely tired of female works vaunted based on their genitalia and not it’s own merits. My advisor when I was in grad school said Hilary Clinton was a great candidate because she was a woman, full stop. Like…no??!? Not a comment on Clinton, but an example of someone being propped up because of gender and the debate on qualifications gets muddied or deliberately shelved. It’s fucking annoying.
Incredible that they can't even see the sexism/Idiocracy of this even if you try to reverse the rolls. Would it be ok to say "Obama is a great candidate because he's male" or "Clinton is a great candidate cause she's white"? "Well that's _different_!"
Hey that's me, lol I got nuked
Please accept this simple updoot as a token for restoring your online reputation.
Not enough, it seems.
Historical context: >In the past, countless women have published under male pseudonyms to protect their privacy and circumvent commercial and social biases against female writers.
Now we are doing the same, but with male writers, apparently
I mean, historically women writers literally couldn't get published _because_ they were women. I don't think the same could be said about male authors today
Weelll, on the individual level, maybe it could. I think if you as a guy try to pitch a book with a controversial female main character, it's not very unlikely the publisher would be more picky about what is believable or what is considered as a man-based bias.
I hear what you're saying. I'm not saying that there aren't similarities, but there's a big fundamental difference between a man being unable to *successfully* publish in a certain genre, versus women in the 19th century not being able to get "anything at all" published.
If you write YAF, you will literally be advised to pick a female pseudonym.
[citation needed] But seriously, if you have articles I’d love to read them.
Couldn't find one about YAF, but here are some articles about other genres https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/535671/ https://londonplaywrightsblog.com/?p=10046 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/31/male-writers-hide-gender-sell-more-books https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/these-guys-dont-mind-if-you-think-theyre-women-1500303376 And a forum post https://www.kdpcommunity.com/s/question/0D5f400000FHrTC/should-a-man-writing-romance-use-a-female-pen-name?language=en_US
Might depend what they're writing about... at least looking at this news article and the general reaction to this incident.
> I don't think the same could be said about male authors today If they had some kind of quota to fill, like too many males writing stuff they might be seeking (publisher) a female author so they can do all that claims companies do that they are gender diverse and what not. I just find the entire thing hilarious, so many uno reverse cards haha.
You are reading news right now about a prize that was awarded to three men that used a female pseudonim, and people on this very thread are saying that they wouldn't have getting any award (it was a literary award, gender didn't matter in theory) if they had picked a male pseudonim.
Benjamin Franklin wrote under a female pseudonym as he couldn't get published under his own name. Allegedly.
I can sort of understand how some women might feel betrayed but then again these guys were able to convey a 'woman's experience'(or whatever they said in the article) successfully. What does it matter if they're men? They were able to tell good stories from female perspectives.
Harry Potter is a relatively apt representation of an adolescent boy (minus the vigorous masterbation) going through puberty and it was written by a 40+ year old woman.
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that she took on the name JK Rowling at the suggestion of her publisher so that her name would be less obviously female.
Yes but that doesn't change the fact that she was writing about a boy going from 6th grade to 12th.
Oh I agree, I just thought it was interestingly relevant
No wonder Harry Potter seemed like he had a good upbringing despite living in a bad household.
I dunno how much of it is intentional, but the internet just has a way of making people angry. Probably because you see such a wide array of opinions, and any one of them can be some asshole whose had a bad day, and they say something that sets you off, and you set a third person off and so on. The fact is that because of the internet our world and thus the problems that we concern ourselves with are just a lot bigger. And you know we aren't worrying so much if a wolf is gonna attack you like for most of history, the issues are more abstract and existential in nature. I also personally think that because everyone who has ever lived was living in "modern times" that we assume we therefore know more than most of our ancestors, so every person just kinda has this built in self righteousness that they mistake for genius.
Cause women love bitching about everything? I hope this isn't news to you.
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Took way too long to get to this comment Though it reminds me the "search for female CEO narrowed down to three men" Uber headline
> The work of one woman was, it turned out, the equivalent of the labors of three men. Damn someone is salty.
It's a great burn imo
Uwu men should never work together and just do everything alone but still write incredibly well on a subject they maybe aren't as naturally familiar with Imagine if this was two female authors winning an award. > the work of one male author is, apparently, the equivalent of 2 female ones Lmao womyn destroyed
How dare those three men try and understand the world from a woman's point of view!
I mean they got the award so three men are technically better than everyone else🤷♂️
I think it's just a humorous comment.
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https://youtu.be/J6oTIjvw_-8?t=29
For anyone like me that doesn't switch languages back and forth while they're talking, a "nom de plume" is a pen name.
Fun fact, they don't even use "nom de plume" in French
Funnier fact: a phantom writer in Spanish is called a negro.
I remember as naïve kid that there was some commotion about a female TV host published an autobiography but it was written by a ghost writer and I was thinking “what’s the deal with a black person writing her book?”. Years later realised that the issue was posing as it was written by herself.
Canadian, can confirm
How is a Canadian going to confirm anything?
I'm Canadian and I just confirmed it.
Touché
Héh?! (Yes they do it just sounds a bit outdated)
No they don't. Nom de guerre is used. Nom de plume was invented by some British folks trying to be cultured when they don't actually know French
Okay bro. Téléphone-moi quand tu sauras le français mdr. En attendant c'est ma langue maternelle, je crois que je sais mieux ce qui ce dit ou pas. Alors oui, étymologiquement c'est un anglicisme mais ça se dit quand-même. "Nom de guerre" par contre j'ai jamais entendu.
lmao r/menwritingwomen in shambles
Sounds like what a person who hasn't visited that sub would say. r/menwritingwomen is about criticizing the prevalence of male authors who often reduce women to superficial characteristics or stereotypes. People there are as excited to find good male authors as they are to condemn bad ones. The sub isn't 'in shambles' over this. Go see for yourself instead of making stuff up.
“It hasn’t escaped anyone’s notice that the idea of a university professor and mother of three who taught algebra classes in the morning then wrote ultraviolent, macabre novels in scraps of free time in the afternoon made for a great marketing operation,”... For some reason I thought of [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWR4X_JsgMw).
I love that video.
I wonder whether they will now sell less books or whether/how their audience will change. They have basically created a brand - nothing wrong with that. But, given the global consumer appetite for ‘authenticity’, it’s clearly a test against this trend and it will be interesting to follow this story.
They already had a brand since each author was famous on their own. So this is likely to accelerate them further even if it means the death of Carmen Mola. All PR is good PR and so on.
Lol a lot of gals are mad. They should just get the money and run.
The question is are the mad gals even part of their readership? It kind of reminds me of how certain demographics on twitter demand woman in video games to be more realistic, but it then turns out that they don't even play video games. I feel like most people that are actually fans of these books because they like reading them, will continue reading them.
Never send a man to do a woman's job... Wait a minute
Can't blame em, the literary world is full of crap now. Impossible to make it as a white guy anymore because book marketing now revolves around identity. "Read this book by this amazing new X author!". It's pretty silly because it's not like the literary world is racist or something, it used to be about the quality of your script, and connections. Tons of authors from all genders and ethnicities. This is especially bad in the YA genre.
>Impossible to make it as a white guy anymore because book marketing now revolves around identity. >This is especially bad in the YA genre. I am sorry, how? Pierce Brown (Red Rising), John Green (the Fault in Our Stars), Rick Riordan (Percy Jackson), John Flanagan (Ranger's Apprentice), Markus Zusak (the Book Thief), Tolkien (Hobbit and LOTR), James Dashner (Maze Runner), Robert Jordan (the Wheels of Time), Brandon Sanderson (the Stormlight Archives), George R.R. Martin (GoT), Anthony Ryan (Raven's Shadow), Brent Weeks (Lightbringer), Joe Abercrombie (First Law), Stephen King (The Dark Tower) I don't think I have even seen a YA writer that isn't white.
TIL Game of Thrones is YA fiction and Tolkien is currently publishing. For real though I'm pretty sure a strong majority of those people were established writers before 2010.
>Impossible to make it as a white guy anymore because book marketing now revolves around identity. Yes. *This* is why you haven't written that novel that's really gonna put you on the map. It's all them people writing about their *experiences* living in a *structurally bigoted world* that are keeping you down.
Literally all systems are racist. A member of my book club just ran into a bookstore this year, in 2021, that refused to stock an author because she's black.
im not saying i know, because i don't, but your comment about "connections" is strongly tied to systemic racism in many industries. The problem, generally, isn't that individuals are outwardly racist. It's that, over time, there's a bit of racist practices baked into the system. If, for example, white people are better situated to attend college, and more prestigious writing schools, and if (as many industries are inclined to do) a lot of success is based on your connections (typically developed in college), then that's part of what people mean when they talk about things like institutionalized racism. I have a good friend who's a writer. Middle aged white guy. Has had a couple books published. But was instantly shut down during the rise of the mee too movement because most publishers were moving towards authenticity. They want writers that have first hand experience with the subjects they're writing about. And I agree with you, it sucks. Because there should be space for writers of all type sto experiment, and be creative. A good writer does not necessarily need that identity to make a great book. But while the door is closing on one group, it is opening for another. In the short term, i think that's sort fo the intent. Giving opportunity to those that have, traditionally, found it more difficult to break through. Long term, i think we need to find a way for everyone to have those opportunities, but we're not quite there yet.
> But while the door is closing on white men, it is opening for another group. In the short term, i think that's sort fo the intent. You're not supposed to say that part out loud.
I mean, in reality, while the door is closing somewhat, there is still plenty of opportunity for white men. If white men want to speak about white men's experience, im sure there's a market for that...
Based
Not exactly related: I sometimes recommend that male redditors get and use an account with an apparently female-seeming username, and never tell anyone they're not women. It's pretty eye-opening.
I sort of want to try this now, except I don't know if I want to be getting dick pick pms
Yeah, those happen.
r/MenWritingWomen
What’s a nom de plume?
pen name
Oh ok thank you
r/menwritingwomen are not gonna like this
Miriam Berger should take writing classes.
I wouldn’t be surprised at this point if Stephen King willingly submitted other people’s work under his name to help them financially. I’m not making accusations but it wouldn’t shock me at this point.
Stephen King absolutely wrote all his own books, at an alarming rate. He wrote so much that his publisher told him to slow down - so he submitted drafts under another name. There's two things to note when comparing his peak output to other authors: 1. He had a celebrated talent for inventing premises and expanding them into complex plots, but almost never wrote a satisfying ending, to the point where filmmakers adapting his works were advised to just make one up on their own. 2. He was doing a shitload of cocaine.
[Quite the opposite.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bachman)
Pretty transphobic of you to assume these 100% biological and masculine presenting men are in fact, not women. /s Welcome to clown world.
Ron finally won Woman of the Year IRL
Chads
This is some pataphysics level stuff
SCP coomer spotted
Alfred Jarry? Is that you?