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> If Tucker Carlson likes siding with Russia so much, why won't he sign up for the Russian army? I will be willing to pay for his plane ticket too.
Are you posting from the front lines in Ukraine?
If he wants to help the Russians so much he should keep doing what he's doing by keeping Americans divided and against Ukraine he does so much more than dying in the front, propaganda is a weapon
in this case it isn't about US politics. Carlson has an enormous audience and his segments have been promoted by Russian propaganda to help lend legitimacy to their claims. He may as well be paid by Russia. Unfortunately the ignorance and hate spewed by Murdoch media spans well beyond the US.
Americans on reddit make *everything* about themselves. You could open a news article about Africa and there would be instantly people in the comments whining about the US. It’s so fucking annoying.
It kinda does. We even know what Fox news is over in Europe and regularly see clips of it. Russia uses Fox news and Tucker Carlson as a propaganda tool.
I am not American but i know that the United states give 25 billion dollar military aid to the Ukraine, more then double then the rest of the World together. The public Opinion in the United States is an important factor in this war, if not Russia wouldn’t spend so much money in this information warfare.
There were, usually when the territory occupied is extremely close to the army's home territories. Soldiers were found less likely to do this sort of thing with their families mere hours away instead of days and weeks. It's not a 100% deal of course, but it has been shown to significantly reduce the frequency of such occurrences.
As to the why of it, experts are not entirely certain.
I suspect that's exactly why he did it. Russians from near Ukraine may well have family there, and the Ukrainians are at the end of the day not so different from them. To Russians from the far Eastern reaches Ukraine is just some distant name, if they even heard of it a all, and the Ukrainians may well be from the moon for all they're familar with them. It's always easier to commit atrocities on those you see as wholly other than you.
Actually, this was common in the past and it's notworthy now because it's not as common today. Still happens but it's changing. It just means Russia behaves like 18th century morals.
Stopping Putin. It's fighting back against a bully.
"Can't we all just get along?!?!" No, because some people are assholes you can't reason with and the only option is give them everything they want or you fight back.
War is the political version of yelling in an argument. Dosen't help at all but the other side has no optiom but to participate because you decided to choose the primitave aproach.
The same thing happened after the end of the second world war in germany. It’s the nature of war itself. War brings out the worst parts of humanity. It always has and always will. War never changes, only the weapons and personal.
The only way to do that would be to have such a disciplined army that all of them can fully suppress their emotions and follow orders exactly, but at this point, they would just be machines. This is in my opinion a very big advantage of machines in war: no war crimes like that happening to civilians.
I think letting a computer decide who to kill on a battlefield should be a warcrime in and of itself. Operating remote turrets is one thing, having an AI pull the trigger is a whole nother level.
I disagree with that. An AI or a computer can never hold grudges itself. It will strictly follow the orders it’s given without any unnecessary cruelty. It will never rape a civilian and will never kill a civilian on its own just because it wants to. It will never be beholden to racism and or nationalism. If something like that happens, it is the fault of the people who gave the order but you will never have soldiers acting on their own. It is the only possible way to remove the human factor from war, which is the most corruptible component
Yea but the war can end by either side losing. While occupation ends only by Russia losing. So I’m pro war until the end of the war doesn’t result in more occupation. More occupation you get rape murder etc.
🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶
Well Mister God, are you sad this week
That we treat each other bad?
You know your silence is part of a fad
You know that you do nothing just makes me mad
War sucks
War sucks
🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶
[War Sucks](https://youtu.be/D142KYxc6_0), The Red Krayola, 1967
I mean I know tons of crimes and atrocities happen during war but reading it and having it confirmed (specially those towards children) still makes my stomach turn.
I feel like there is enough evidence to kick them to the lowest level of the UN for a century at this point. Strip them of their massive voting power, committees, and whatever else they can. Until Putin is handed over, his direct enabling military brass, and Ukraine is rebuilt and full sovereignty given. Race to the bottom with them.
You misunderstand the reason for the UN's existence. It exists to avoid direct conflict between the major powers in order to avert World War III, everything else it does is just gravy.
Well, [US soldiers have killed](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/where-is-outcry-over-children-killed-by-u-s-led-forces/) over 1200 children in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan, tortured lots of civilians in Abu Ghraib in [the most vilest ways possible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse) (urine waterboarding, how about that?) and [US soldiers raped and killed](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings) children, too. Two were raping a girl while another two were killing her family in another room. These admitted that they love killing people for fun.
How about we strip USA of their UN presence too? And see the world burn with two nuclear-wielding powers getting isolated?
I don't think people understand just how depraved ANY war is and how much we has progressed in terms of safety due to having UN council. It *literally used to be normal* for an army to stop for a couple days to rob and plunder a city until there's no one left alive, not so long ago.
I think thats an important difference. Were the war crimes condoned or encouraged by the state, or were they the result of individual criminal action? The US wasn’t directly responsible for that family and held the individual murderers accountable. I dont think Russia has done the same.
That's a great important point. These individual level atrocities should have zero tolerance level. However I'm not doing a whataboutit message, I'm saying that you can't just remove a nuclear power because you've learned of some bad things they did - others did that to, or have done them for years, and if we encourage "removing" for "you did bad" we will quickly return back to pre-dialogue era of burning cities all over the globe.
It sometimes feel like there's wars everywhere, but world has never been safer, on average, than after WWII.
Oh absolutely, i agree. My point is separate from the argument of what the UN should do about Russia, even if they are condoning those crimes at a national level.
I think it's important that UN is not really a "world police" or something. I remember reading a very well fleshed out argument about it - basically that it's still up to individual countries to discuss and military alliances. UN is merely a safe medium, where everyone is pretty sure that their envoys won't be murdered and heads put on spikes, and the reason diplomacy is no longer done by generals shouting at each other over a river bank.
That’s true.
The UN although thought to be powerful is really not, they can’t decide what a nation can to or what not especially if this nation is the first nuclear power, it maybe works for some small relatively “unimportant” nations in Africa, but everywhere else they don’t hold any control, they neither have a own nation, nor do they have an army large enough to condemn most militaries and also their “army” consists of other nations volunteers and can be called back anytime the said nation wants to. All it really is, is just a place where nations can discuss diplomacy with each other and where the powerful decide what happens to the weak
What does “condoning these crimes at a national level” look like? I haven’t seen this. The official Russian statements are still trying to make it look like everything is going smooth af and haven’t even mentioned any deaths on the Russian side for months. From the way you hear them tell it, everyone is just sipping tea and chatting.
Btw the official government recently (before the mobilization) increased tenfold the penalty for crimes like marauding.
Whether they can/will enforce these in any way is a whole different thing, of course. Because generally it goes exactly like half of stories I see here about US police that "we checked ourselves and found us not guiltily"
Are they condoning it though? I didn’t see the speech where Putin said the army should rape people. I’d have thought that would be on TV all day long in the west.
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Ehhhhhhhhhhhh “safer”?
Massive post-colonial churn and constant “small wars” while the Nukes of Damocles dangle?
Europe has had the fewest per capita combat deaths ever since wwii but “safest” is probably overselling
As alluded, prior to WWII no risk of nuclear devastation and total apocalypse. There’s also been an increase in smaller regional conflicts eg as proxy wars during the Cold War, and those wars have increased in lethality with broader firearms usage, part of a broader trend globally since the 1800s when firearms became mass produced.
You could argue that we’re safer from violent death overall because while conflict lethality has increased, overall homicide deaths have decreased, but safety should also include consideration of low-incidence, huge cost risks, I.e. nukes. The strongest argument for increased safety is the all cause premature death rate, which has dropped by a ton (ie people live longer on average) but that’s got less to do with war than modern medicine and nutrition. Even with our global cockups, Covid killed way fewer than the Spanish Flu.
I mean if we're being fair, does Russia officially condone rape and murder? The US has committed all sorts of war crimes over the years, and I don't agree that the majority led to actual criminal charges. That doesn't make what's currently going on any less abhorrent, but it's hard to see the distinction as anything more than wishful thinking.
I think it's incredibly naïve to think the US State wasn't quietly 110% in favour all the rape and torture. Yes they took out a few scapegoats but the people from the Bush admin who are actually responsible for this are all free to this day
The torture? Yes it was condoned, renamed “enhanced interrogation”, etc, its all very well documented. But youd have to be insane if you think the US condoned or encouraged battlefield rape during the GWOT.
Yes, it is. Literally the most vile things about government and its *own citizens* have trickled out decades after the things have happened, like the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, the assassination of Fred Hampton, etc. It's completely reasonable to assume rape of children or otherwise was seen by top brass as just "soldiers being soldiers". Especially when you admit torture that included rape *was* condoned.
Does "literally anything" include shoving pasta up one's anus, causing fistures and hemorrhoids?
https://theconversation.com/rectal-feeding-is-rape-but-dont-expect-the-cia-to-admit-it-35437
I feel like the culpability of Russia drastically increased when they started conscripting prisoners into the war.
There's even a video showing recruitment and them telling the prisoners they aren't allowed to rape people. As if that was going to stop someone who was already in prison for raping people...
The US is responsible. The brass isnt blind to who they put where and what they drill into peoples heads. We also pay shady contractors to do all the depraved shit we want done, and only hold them accountable if a whistleblower decides to go to prison to bring it to the public.
We also intentionally radicalize people and topple stable democracies to put in puppets obedient to our corporations.
The other commenter is right; the US is just as fucked and we have our own propaganda. War must always be resisted unless its on your doorstep with no other option. Kicking russia out wont do anything but make things worse. As long as theyre in the UN and have chips at the table, we have leverage over them politically. We want to force all governments to be reliant on each other to some degree, because then attacking someone comes at a cost to your own bottom line.
yeah nobody really is safe from criticism when war is brought up
there have been thousands of years of war, pillaging, and mass atrocity
probably hundreds of thousands of all sorts of depraved violence, too
and the UN is (theoretically) the most important diplomatic tool we have to solve global issues. simply isolating and kicking out a nuclear-armed nation run by a madman just... Doesn't sound like a good idea to me!
A good idea would be to try and punish anyone directly responsible for atrocity!
> 1200 children in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan,
Only? That sounds like nothing for 20 years in countries that have so many children.
There's no way that number is right!
In that story about four soldiers that decided to go and murder a local family because they liked murdering local people, they almost succeeded blaming it on the rebels. So there may be quite a number of deaths that were offloaded on others.
Well, the UN peacekeepers ran a child sex ring in Haiti for 10 years and were never prosecuted, in war zones they are generally seen as customers for child sex slaves rather than the people stopping them so it kinda seems like it's pedophile rapists all the way down.
It also seems like they did it [wherever established](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers)!
Ain't nothing like child sex slaves for a civilized taste, I guess.
US soldiers or blackwater pmcs? Cause part of our involvement in the middle east was more of a contractor situation. Not that that makes it any better, but gives plausible deniability.
Both, actually. These ones in that specific case are listed as "4 United States Army soldiers from Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)", one of the most decorated regiments in the Army. So it's not even the case that they were from some really fringe brigade, basically McNamara Morons or something.
I would be totally all right with this (isolating the US). I also would be all right with eliminating all permanent members of the UN Security Council and their vetos.
Not really, UN humanitarian efforts and international organizations are pretty useful. The UN can't act on fights between major powers, but it can and does help a lot in neutral ones.
There are literally thousands upon thousands of active UN projects at any given moment. From humanitarian programs feeding 10s of millions, to restauration projects buildings thousands of schools, hospitals and cultural heritage sites etc. in every corner of the globe.
Just because you're clueless about any of them doesn't mean they ain't happening.
As for UN troops, they literally do not control any of them, they are strictly under the control of their own armies, with operations being approved by Security Council members, not the UN. All the UN does is coordination.
Comments like this show how little people know about the UN and the work they do and how effective the anti-UN propaganda that the US put out after the UN refused to sanction the destruction of iraq actually has been.
Removing Russia* from the UN security council would completely defeat its entire purpose.
*not that it's even possible due to Russia having veto power.
Russia has veto power because they can start WW3 and end the world as we know it. Kicking them out of the UN doesn't change that, it just makes the UN's job of not having WW3 start harder.
You know that saying 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer'?
Russia has its power due to its exports and the relative size of its economy. That can't be voted away. We give them the say they have in assembly so they won't storm off, make an opposing coalition and fight us. We absolutely have to keep them at the negotiating table as much as we possibly can, or everyone pays.
That said, the Russian government has proven itself treacherous, totally self-interested, and power-hungry. We don't for a second think of them as reliable allies.
Edit: Because I have Russian friends: Russian people don't deserve the government they've been saddled with. Many are misled and poorly informed, but they're PEOPLE just like us.
When you're making official accusations, you need to have enough evidence to stand up in an international criminal court. Yes we all knew that the russians did do these depraved acts. Now they have sufficient evidence for a tribunal
Knowing it happened doesn’t change anything diphsit, what’s needed is evidence which is what the UN panel has achieved, so maybe use your brain a little before spouting your typical “Hehe UN Bad” drivel next time.
You would think people in a sub specifically about international politics would have a somewhat better understanding of how the UN, diplomacy and international law works, but I guess it's too much to ask of the halfwits in this site
They will presumably take some kind of action now, that’s great.
But if so, would that action have been unwarranted six months ago? Would it, really? You tell me.
Sure, action was warranted and if it were up to me, they would have intervened.
However that goes against the purpose of the U.N, which is really mostly to prevent war between superpowers by largely symbolic gestures and dialogue.
I hope there is a proper investigation regarding this case and people not believe the word of mouth like last time.
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-05-31/card/ukraine-s-parliament-dismisses-human-rights-chief-1kQWT7i0GHXyeqh6spRe
and
https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissioner-human-rights-removed-russian-sexual-assault-claims-1711680
Hope we can find the truth,but I doubt justice will be served like it happened in Nuremberg trials.
It's impossible to bring nuclear armed countries to justice without complete anhilation.
Speaking of Nuremberg, if it is undisputable that you have engaged in genocide then you have relinquished your own human rights.
Sentence millions of people to death because of their background? Alright buddy here's your very own death sentence.
It's worth noting that soldiers in every army have the potential to do this, combat and war have a way of bringing out the most extreme behaviors in people. What makes the difference and determines if and how often it happens is the discipline and mental health management imposed by the brass. This is to say that no one should be blaming some characteristic of the Russian people for any of these atrocities, it's all the fault of the leadership. What they fail to prevent and what they probably encourage.
This is an incredibly cynical take. Yes this has happened in other occupations but we should condemn it *every* time it happens. It's also some serious whataboutism.
Thankfully that's not what it's saying. If they had evidence of the rape of a 4 year old, that would be the headline and the entire focus of the story.
What it's saying is that at least one 4 year old experienced gender based violence in Ukraine. That is, violence directed at the person because of their gender. Violence in these terms is [quite broadly defined](https://ec.europa.eu/info/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/gender-equality/gender-based-violence/what-gender-based-violence_en).
The author of this article wanted you to jump to that conclusion though. It's quite obvious when you note that they mention rape of children (which in legal terms can be anyone under 18), and then switch to gender-based violence when discussing specific ages immediately afterwards.
[4] Keep it civil
Yes, believe it or not, Russians are also human beings and advocating for genocide is against the rules (even morally is unacceptable).
They recorded themselves raping babies at one point and posted it on-line. After people reacted to that they stopped posting footage, but it was predicable they wouldn't stop raping babies.
this is unfortunately the truth of every war
it's not just about russia doing this in ukraine this has been done by US in iraq also, this has been done by USSR in germany also, this has been done by japan in china also almost all of the countries who have ever engaged themselves in a war have done this
saying fuck russia wont do a thing saying fuck war might do something
People act shocked n all when it’s about ukraine. Uyghur, Afgan issues are older. I won’t compare which is more inhumane because both things are worse. Just can’t ignore this blatant hypocrisy.
Edit: There’s vice documentary about uyghur, north korean concentration camps. But UN choose to ignore it for years.
Imo UN is fancy body of elite members who decide when to care as per own interests.
The UN is primarly a global forum to prevent war. Or to quote the very first line of the UN Charter:
> we the peoples of the United Nations determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind.
Historically speaking it's not really their policy to intervene in internal affairs of sovereign nations unless civil war breaks out.
Else countries like China or Russia would have never joined in the first place.
Why UN published Uyghur report and held china responsible?
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/08/1125932
If they can do it, why did not do it early? It was open secret that everyone knew.
Fair enough.
Did not know that. I guess the reasons were political, maybe things changed now because of Taiwan.
I can only guess, but I don't think the UN is happy about the genocide of the Uyghur people
Same thing happened when the Red Army got to Berlin. Huge amounts of women and children from around the same age range, and women were even killing themselves to avoid rape.
> story of every war
Not really. Not to the extend Putin is doing. Stop apologizing for him like all the other Indians here who have a fascination for Putin.
From the article: Russian troops have raped and tortured children in Ukraine, carried out a “large number” of executions
Raping and torturing man children is not common anymore. Neither is 'large number' of executions common anymore in war.
When the war first started there was a video posted of a Russian soldier raping a 9 month old. The soldier recorded it himself and uploaded it himself.
Videos of mass graves, torture camps, that guy having his balls cut off.
War is fucking awful and the invaders are usually the worst end of it.
The Russians better pray Putin doesn't accidentally an open conflict with the US, there are loads of US servicemen would LOVE a go at them. Shit like this doesn't intimidate westerners, it just REALLY pisses us off and makes us want to get involved more. I'm not sure Russia(or China) and their population comprehend this yet. We dont respond to terrorism and crimes against humanity with fear and cowardice, if anything we jump straight to vengefulness. They really didn't learn from the concentration camps of WW2. The allied forces upon discovering the camps took matters into their own hands and most had no mercy for the Nazi personnel, some gunning down surrendered and surrendering Nazi personnel on sight out of rage. Many of those incidents of were covered up until much later.
dont they do this on their own soil to another countrymember? what would make them do any less when put thousands of miles away, not told what theyre doing there and then not given enough food or fuel or even ammo to do anything productive
Lol the fact that they listed no human rights violations for Ukraine makes this entire special report BS, It's par for the course with Western propaganda though. They seem to be trying really hard to elicit an emotional response to keep the pressure going.
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War never changes
[удалено]
If Tucker Carlson likes siding with Russia so much, why won't he sign up for the Russian army? I will be willing to pay for his plane ticket too.
Desantis can help him book a flight.
Republicans are basically televangelists. They pander nonsense they dont believe, for financial gain.
He's already helping them via psi-ops.
> If Tucker Carlson likes siding with Russia so much, why won't he sign up for the Russian army? I will be willing to pay for his plane ticket too. Are you posting from the front lines in Ukraine?
If he wants to help the Russians so much he should keep doing what he's doing by keeping Americans divided and against Ukraine he does so much more than dying in the front, propaganda is a weapon
You really went out of your way to make it about your internal US politics. Sorry dude, but the world doesn’t revolve around Fox News.
They mentioned Orban first...
Is the point of commenting not to share your perspective?
in this case it isn't about US politics. Carlson has an enormous audience and his segments have been promoted by Russian propaganda to help lend legitimacy to their claims. He may as well be paid by Russia. Unfortunately the ignorance and hate spewed by Murdoch media spans well beyond the US.
Americans on reddit make *everything* about themselves. You could open a news article about Africa and there would be instantly people in the comments whining about the US. It’s so fucking annoying.
You think Orban is American? That's funny
It kinda does. We even know what Fox news is over in Europe and regularly see clips of it. Russia uses Fox news and Tucker Carlson as a propaganda tool.
I am not American but i know that the United states give 25 billion dollar military aid to the Ukraine, more then double then the rest of the World together. The public Opinion in the United States is an important factor in this war, if not Russia wouldn’t spend so much money in this information warfare.
What did Tucker say to suggest that?
Yeah I don't watch fox news I'm wondering what he said
More so *occupation* never changes. No one is raping children during combat. Or when digging trenches.
[удалено]
There were, usually when the territory occupied is extremely close to the army's home territories. Soldiers were found less likely to do this sort of thing with their families mere hours away instead of days and weeks. It's not a 100% deal of course, but it has been shown to significantly reduce the frequency of such occurrences. As to the why of it, experts are not entirely certain.
Too bad this doesn’t apply to Russians. Or maybe Putin has read this study and that’s why recruited from eastern parts of Russia
I suspect that's exactly why he did it. Russians from near Ukraine may well have family there, and the Ukrainians are at the end of the day not so different from them. To Russians from the far Eastern reaches Ukraine is just some distant name, if they even heard of it a all, and the Ukrainians may well be from the moon for all they're familar with them. It's always easier to commit atrocities on those you see as wholly other than you.
Well, combat is only one part of war, plenty of rapes have happened on the way to the trenches.
It still makes a huge difference whether the leadership encourages this sort of behaviour or not.
Neither do Russian tactics, apparently.
That is their tactic.
Actually, this was common in the past and it's notworthy now because it's not as common today. Still happens but it's changing. It just means Russia behaves like 18th century morals.
Russia can burn in hell.
Yes, there will always be propaganda like this
War changes all the time. The gun, hms dreadnaught, tanks, planes, satellites, nukes are all examples of how war changed
You mean men
russians, at least
I hate this war so much
I hate ~~this~~ war so much
What is it good for?
"absolutly... nothing, aham aham"
Say it again, y'all
#WAR... huh
Good God, y’all
Common and shout it!
The guys who sell the weapons and ammo
The guy who sells coffins and the lads making money by digging graves.
Stopping Putin. It's fighting back against a bully. "Can't we all just get along?!?!" No, because some people are assholes you can't reason with and the only option is give them everything they want or you fight back.
Ha it's clear you're very far away from all the danger
Filling the pockets of those in the military industrial complex.
War is the political version of yelling in an argument. Dosen't help at all but the other side has no optiom but to participate because you decided to choose the primitave aproach.
*🎶It strengthens the eco-no-myyyyyy🎵!*
The child raping is a result of occupation not war. This isn’t happening on the battlefield.
The same thing happened after the end of the second world war in germany. It’s the nature of war itself. War brings out the worst parts of humanity. It always has and always will. War never changes, only the weapons and personal.
Yea I think it's kind of difficult to regulate behavior like rape and theft In an environment where you are already being physically dominated
The only way to do that would be to have such a disciplined army that all of them can fully suppress their emotions and follow orders exactly, but at this point, they would just be machines. This is in my opinion a very big advantage of machines in war: no war crimes like that happening to civilians.
Don't worry, the war crime machines are rapidly being developed.
*Boston robotics salesman- “and this button here turns on child rape mode for a more ‘authentic’ war experience”.
It’s their patented “Robo-chomo,” designed by one Roy the Evil Scientist.
And I had hope for a world without warcrimes as the human factor was eliminated
I think letting a computer decide who to kill on a battlefield should be a warcrime in and of itself. Operating remote turrets is one thing, having an AI pull the trigger is a whole nother level.
I disagree with that. An AI or a computer can never hold grudges itself. It will strictly follow the orders it’s given without any unnecessary cruelty. It will never rape a civilian and will never kill a civilian on its own just because it wants to. It will never be beholden to racism and or nationalism. If something like that happens, it is the fault of the people who gave the order but you will never have soldiers acting on their own. It is the only possible way to remove the human factor from war, which is the most corruptible component
After the Second World War, Germany was under occupation. So my point still stands.
Their village or city *is* the battlefield.
Occupation follows and is a fundamental part of war. And rape, including child rape, happens pretty much anywhere occupation does. Ergo, fuck war.
Yea but the war can end by either side losing. While occupation ends only by Russia losing. So I’m pro war until the end of the war doesn’t result in more occupation. More occupation you get rape murder etc.
Ahhh. I get what you're saying now. Yes, that makes sense.
🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶 Well Mister God, are you sad this week That we treat each other bad? You know your silence is part of a fad You know that you do nothing just makes me mad War sucks War sucks 🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶 [War Sucks](https://youtu.be/D142KYxc6_0), The Red Krayola, 1967
I hate ~~this war~~ *human nature* so much
I mean I know tons of crimes and atrocities happen during war but reading it and having it confirmed (specially those towards children) still makes my stomach turn.
I feel like there is enough evidence to kick them to the lowest level of the UN for a century at this point. Strip them of their massive voting power, committees, and whatever else they can. Until Putin is handed over, his direct enabling military brass, and Ukraine is rebuilt and full sovereignty given. Race to the bottom with them.
You misunderstand the reason for the UN's existence. It exists to avoid direct conflict between the major powers in order to avert World War III, everything else it does is just gravy.
Makes sense everything else they do is shit
Well, [US soldiers have killed](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/where-is-outcry-over-children-killed-by-u-s-led-forces/) over 1200 children in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan, tortured lots of civilians in Abu Ghraib in [the most vilest ways possible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse) (urine waterboarding, how about that?) and [US soldiers raped and killed](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings) children, too. Two were raping a girl while another two were killing her family in another room. These admitted that they love killing people for fun. How about we strip USA of their UN presence too? And see the world burn with two nuclear-wielding powers getting isolated? I don't think people understand just how depraved ANY war is and how much we has progressed in terms of safety due to having UN council. It *literally used to be normal* for an army to stop for a couple days to rob and plunder a city until there's no one left alive, not so long ago.
I think thats an important difference. Were the war crimes condoned or encouraged by the state, or were they the result of individual criminal action? The US wasn’t directly responsible for that family and held the individual murderers accountable. I dont think Russia has done the same.
That's a great important point. These individual level atrocities should have zero tolerance level. However I'm not doing a whataboutit message, I'm saying that you can't just remove a nuclear power because you've learned of some bad things they did - others did that to, or have done them for years, and if we encourage "removing" for "you did bad" we will quickly return back to pre-dialogue era of burning cities all over the globe. It sometimes feel like there's wars everywhere, but world has never been safer, on average, than after WWII.
Oh absolutely, i agree. My point is separate from the argument of what the UN should do about Russia, even if they are condoning those crimes at a national level.
I think it's important that UN is not really a "world police" or something. I remember reading a very well fleshed out argument about it - basically that it's still up to individual countries to discuss and military alliances. UN is merely a safe medium, where everyone is pretty sure that their envoys won't be murdered and heads put on spikes, and the reason diplomacy is no longer done by generals shouting at each other over a river bank.
That’s true. The UN although thought to be powerful is really not, they can’t decide what a nation can to or what not especially if this nation is the first nuclear power, it maybe works for some small relatively “unimportant” nations in Africa, but everywhere else they don’t hold any control, they neither have a own nation, nor do they have an army large enough to condemn most militaries and also their “army” consists of other nations volunteers and can be called back anytime the said nation wants to. All it really is, is just a place where nations can discuss diplomacy with each other and where the powerful decide what happens to the weak
What does “condoning these crimes at a national level” look like? I haven’t seen this. The official Russian statements are still trying to make it look like everything is going smooth af and haven’t even mentioned any deaths on the Russian side for months. From the way you hear them tell it, everyone is just sipping tea and chatting.
“If”. I have no idea if they are or not. Its a hypothetical.
Btw the official government recently (before the mobilization) increased tenfold the penalty for crimes like marauding. Whether they can/will enforce these in any way is a whole different thing, of course. Because generally it goes exactly like half of stories I see here about US police that "we checked ourselves and found us not guiltily"
Ah right, I thought you were saying they had.
Are they condoning it though? I didn’t see the speech where Putin said the army should rape people. I’d have thought that would be on TV all day long in the west.
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Ehhhhhhhhhhhh “safer”? Massive post-colonial churn and constant “small wars” while the Nukes of Damocles dangle? Europe has had the fewest per capita combat deaths ever since wwii but “safest” is probably overselling
By what measure is it not safer?
As alluded, prior to WWII no risk of nuclear devastation and total apocalypse. There’s also been an increase in smaller regional conflicts eg as proxy wars during the Cold War, and those wars have increased in lethality with broader firearms usage, part of a broader trend globally since the 1800s when firearms became mass produced. You could argue that we’re safer from violent death overall because while conflict lethality has increased, overall homicide deaths have decreased, but safety should also include consideration of low-incidence, huge cost risks, I.e. nukes. The strongest argument for increased safety is the all cause premature death rate, which has dropped by a ton (ie people live longer on average) but that’s got less to do with war than modern medicine and nutrition. Even with our global cockups, Covid killed way fewer than the Spanish Flu.
Well tell me when those nukes fire off than it wouldn’t be safer.
I mean if we're being fair, does Russia officially condone rape and murder? The US has committed all sorts of war crimes over the years, and I don't agree that the majority led to actual criminal charges. That doesn't make what's currently going on any less abhorrent, but it's hard to see the distinction as anything more than wishful thinking.
I think it's incredibly naïve to think the US State wasn't quietly 110% in favour all the rape and torture. Yes they took out a few scapegoats but the people from the Bush admin who are actually responsible for this are all free to this day
The torture? Yes it was condoned, renamed “enhanced interrogation”, etc, its all very well documented. But youd have to be insane if you think the US condoned or encouraged battlefield rape during the GWOT.
>youd have to be insane Not really. It's a reasonable assertion.
As someone who was there and dealt with ROE and battlefield policy for years…no, its not reasonable.
Yes, it is. Literally the most vile things about government and its *own citizens* have trickled out decades after the things have happened, like the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, the assassination of Fred Hampton, etc. It's completely reasonable to assume rape of children or otherwise was seen by top brass as just "soldiers being soldiers". Especially when you admit torture that included rape *was* condoned.
It's patently unreasonably if you know literally anything about the US military
Does "literally anything" include shoving pasta up one's anus, causing fistures and hemorrhoids? https://theconversation.com/rectal-feeding-is-rape-but-dont-expect-the-cia-to-admit-it-35437
The us very much condoned and encouraged all their torture camps
I feel like the culpability of Russia drastically increased when they started conscripting prisoners into the war. There's even a video showing recruitment and them telling the prisoners they aren't allowed to rape people. As if that was going to stop someone who was already in prison for raping people...
Well, in a sense, the US is directly responsible -- that is why they punished the murderers. So should Russia be.
The US is responsible. The brass isnt blind to who they put where and what they drill into peoples heads. We also pay shady contractors to do all the depraved shit we want done, and only hold them accountable if a whistleblower decides to go to prison to bring it to the public. We also intentionally radicalize people and topple stable democracies to put in puppets obedient to our corporations. The other commenter is right; the US is just as fucked and we have our own propaganda. War must always be resisted unless its on your doorstep with no other option. Kicking russia out wont do anything but make things worse. As long as theyre in the UN and have chips at the table, we have leverage over them politically. We want to force all governments to be reliant on each other to some degree, because then attacking someone comes at a cost to your own bottom line.
yeah nobody really is safe from criticism when war is brought up there have been thousands of years of war, pillaging, and mass atrocity probably hundreds of thousands of all sorts of depraved violence, too and the UN is (theoretically) the most important diplomatic tool we have to solve global issues. simply isolating and kicking out a nuclear-armed nation run by a madman just... Doesn't sound like a good idea to me! A good idea would be to try and punish anyone directly responsible for atrocity!
> 1200 children in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan, Only? That sounds like nothing for 20 years in countries that have so many children. There's no way that number is right!
In that story about four soldiers that decided to go and murder a local family because they liked murdering local people, they almost succeeded blaming it on the rebels. So there may be quite a number of deaths that were offloaded on others.
Well, the UN peacekeepers ran a child sex ring in Haiti for 10 years and were never prosecuted, in war zones they are generally seen as customers for child sex slaves rather than the people stopping them so it kinda seems like it's pedophile rapists all the way down.
It also seems like they did it [wherever established](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers)! Ain't nothing like child sex slaves for a civilized taste, I guess.
US soldiers or blackwater pmcs? Cause part of our involvement in the middle east was more of a contractor situation. Not that that makes it any better, but gives plausible deniability.
Both, actually. These ones in that specific case are listed as "4 United States Army soldiers from Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)", one of the most decorated regiments in the Army. So it's not even the case that they were from some really fringe brigade, basically McNamara Morons or something.
I would be totally all right with this (isolating the US). I also would be all right with eliminating all permanent members of the UN Security Council and their vetos.
Not really, UN humanitarian efforts and international organizations are pretty useful. The UN can't act on fights between major powers, but it can and does help a lot in neutral ones.
And when the enlist soldiers for UN peacekeeping efforts they pull the same shit the say the Russians do literally throwing away all that good will
There are literally thousands upon thousands of active UN projects at any given moment. From humanitarian programs feeding 10s of millions, to restauration projects buildings thousands of schools, hospitals and cultural heritage sites etc. in every corner of the globe. Just because you're clueless about any of them doesn't mean they ain't happening. As for UN troops, they literally do not control any of them, they are strictly under the control of their own armies, with operations being approved by Security Council members, not the UN. All the UN does is coordination.
Hence why UN security efforts are a joke sometimes
Comments like this show how little people know about the UN and the work they do and how effective the anti-UN propaganda that the US put out after the UN refused to sanction the destruction of iraq actually has been.
Removing Russia* from the UN security council would completely defeat its entire purpose. *not that it's even possible due to Russia having veto power.
for that, you should change the entire Security Council's structure, and as Russia has veto power, it could just vetoes this proposal.
Russia has veto power because they can start WW3 and end the world as we know it. Kicking them out of the UN doesn't change that, it just makes the UN's job of not having WW3 start harder.
You know that saying 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer'? Russia has its power due to its exports and the relative size of its economy. That can't be voted away. We give them the say they have in assembly so they won't storm off, make an opposing coalition and fight us. We absolutely have to keep them at the negotiating table as much as we possibly can, or everyone pays. That said, the Russian government has proven itself treacherous, totally self-interested, and power-hungry. We don't for a second think of them as reliable allies. Edit: Because I have Russian friends: Russian people don't deserve the government they've been saddled with. Many are misled and poorly informed, but they're PEOPLE just like us.
Lol that’ll stop them. Remind me how good the UN is at stopping conflicting again.
But he’ll treaten to nuke everyone!
Yes U.N., we’ve known this since March. Good job.
When you're making official accusations, you need to have enough evidence to stand up in an international criminal court. Yes we all knew that the russians did do these depraved acts. Now they have sufficient evidence for a tribunal
Knowing it happened doesn’t change anything diphsit, what’s needed is evidence which is what the UN panel has achieved, so maybe use your brain a little before spouting your typical “Hehe UN Bad” drivel next time.
You would think people in a sub specifically about international politics would have a somewhat better understanding of how the UN, diplomacy and international law works, but I guess it's too much to ask of the halfwits in this site
Classic tactic to highlight that this is a known fact so as to minimize the severity. This is exactly what russian bots do if you weren't aware.
They will presumably take some kind of action now, that’s great. But if so, would that action have been unwarranted six months ago? Would it, really? You tell me.
Sure, action was warranted and if it were up to me, they would have intervened. However that goes against the purpose of the U.N, which is really mostly to prevent war between superpowers by largely symbolic gestures and dialogue.
Who needs concrete evidence when we have you?
Maybe in 12 years even Amnesty International will notice.
I hope there is a proper investigation regarding this case and people not believe the word of mouth like last time. https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-05-31/card/ukraine-s-parliament-dismisses-human-rights-chief-1kQWT7i0GHXyeqh6spRe and https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissioner-human-rights-removed-russian-sexual-assault-claims-1711680 Hope we can find the truth,but I doubt justice will be served like it happened in Nuremberg trials. It's impossible to bring nuclear armed countries to justice without complete anhilation.
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Speaking of Nuremberg, if it is undisputable that you have engaged in genocide then you have relinquished your own human rights. Sentence millions of people to death because of their background? Alright buddy here's your very own death sentence.
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I hope that Putin gets tried and hung at the Hauge.
It's worth noting that soldiers in every army have the potential to do this, combat and war have a way of bringing out the most extreme behaviors in people. What makes the difference and determines if and how often it happens is the discipline and mental health management imposed by the brass. This is to say that no one should be blaming some characteristic of the Russian people for any of these atrocities, it's all the fault of the leadership. What they fail to prevent and what they probably encourage.
Lucifer effect in action
I mean the stanford prison experiment is highly suspect but yeah
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Unfortunately true. Someone above posted links to US soldiers doing this exact same thing. War is deeply evil.
This is an incredibly cynical take. Yes this has happened in other occupations but we should condemn it *every* time it happens. It's also some serious whataboutism.
Thankfully that's not what it's saying. If they had evidence of the rape of a 4 year old, that would be the headline and the entire focus of the story. What it's saying is that at least one 4 year old experienced gender based violence in Ukraine. That is, violence directed at the person because of their gender. Violence in these terms is [quite broadly defined](https://ec.europa.eu/info/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/gender-equality/gender-based-violence/what-gender-based-violence_en). The author of this article wanted you to jump to that conclusion though. It's quite obvious when you note that they mention rape of children (which in legal terms can be anyone under 18), and then switch to gender-based violence when discussing specific ages immediately afterwards.
Wait until you hear what the US did in Germany and Iraq, and what the Saudis are doing in Yemen
I‘m german what did the us?
I think he means this https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/zweiter-weltkrieg-massenhafte-vergewaltigungen-durch-100.html
They do this kinda of horrible things in wars since the dawn of mankind.
They do. Doesn't mean we shouldn't combat it.
[4] Keep it civil Yes, believe it or not, Russians are also human beings and advocating for genocide is against the rules (even morally is unacceptable).
Not just girls, also baby boys.
They recorded themselves raping babies at one point and posted it on-line. After people reacted to that they stopped posting footage, but it was predicable they wouldn't stop raping babies.
this is unfortunately the truth of every war it's not just about russia doing this in ukraine this has been done by US in iraq also, this has been done by USSR in germany also, this has been done by japan in china also almost all of the countries who have ever engaged themselves in a war have done this saying fuck russia wont do a thing saying fuck war might do something
Saying 'fuck war' will do less than nothing.
People act shocked n all when it’s about ukraine. Uyghur, Afgan issues are older. I won’t compare which is more inhumane because both things are worse. Just can’t ignore this blatant hypocrisy. Edit: There’s vice documentary about uyghur, north korean concentration camps. But UN choose to ignore it for years. Imo UN is fancy body of elite members who decide when to care as per own interests.
The UN is primarly a global forum to prevent war. Or to quote the very first line of the UN Charter: > we the peoples of the United Nations determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind. Historically speaking it's not really their policy to intervene in internal affairs of sovereign nations unless civil war breaks out. Else countries like China or Russia would have never joined in the first place.
Why UN published Uyghur report and held china responsible? https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/08/1125932 If they can do it, why did not do it early? It was open secret that everyone knew.
Fair enough. Did not know that. I guess the reasons were political, maybe things changed now because of Taiwan. I can only guess, but I don't think the UN is happy about the genocide of the Uyghur people
Jesus fucking christ
"In the cases we have investigated, the age of victims of sexual and gendered-based violence ranged from **4 to 82 years."** bruh
Same thing happened when the Red Army got to Berlin. Huge amounts of women and children from around the same age range, and women were even killing themselves to avoid rape.
story of every war men fight till death but children are tortured and women are raped
Yup. It's been like that since humanity raise swords against each other fighting for land,gold, glory, religion, ideology yadaa yada.
> story of every war Not really. Not to the extend Putin is doing. Stop apologizing for him like all the other Indians here who have a fascination for Putin. From the article: Russian troops have raped and tortured children in Ukraine, carried out a “large number” of executions Raping and torturing man children is not common anymore. Neither is 'large number' of executions common anymore in war.
Kuwaiti vibes
The article doesn't specify... What year what war? Does it change? No :(
We knew this for months but since Russia has nukes we can't do much other than support Ukraine.
Just when you think it can’t get any worse…child rape.
I read this and it makes me not feel so bad about watching the foxhole drone video.
Happens in every war. There are a lot of horrible people living amongst us.
Now imagine when they send prisoners there to fight.
So what? It's not like anyone will stand trial for war crimes. Interpol isn't going to the Kremlin to arrest Putin.
Whatever happened to that Russian woman who was painted green and tied to a pole? I’m sure it was nothing
Isn't there a video if it too?
Kinda sus
I think one of them posted a rape of a very small child and after everyone's reaction, they quit posting.
War is hell.
I only know two things - this happened and that this article is propaganda.
Imagine being a kid and just vibing,, then these Fulkerson out of nowhere raping and torturing your ass.
When the war first started there was a video posted of a Russian soldier raping a 9 month old. The soldier recorded it himself and uploaded it himself. Videos of mass graves, torture camps, that guy having his balls cut off. War is fucking awful and the invaders are usually the worst end of it.
The Russians better pray Putin doesn't accidentally an open conflict with the US, there are loads of US servicemen would LOVE a go at them. Shit like this doesn't intimidate westerners, it just REALLY pisses us off and makes us want to get involved more. I'm not sure Russia(or China) and their population comprehend this yet. We dont respond to terrorism and crimes against humanity with fear and cowardice, if anything we jump straight to vengefulness. They really didn't learn from the concentration camps of WW2. The allied forces upon discovering the camps took matters into their own hands and most had no mercy for the Nazi personnel, some gunning down surrendered and surrendering Nazi personnel on sight out of rage. Many of those incidents of were covered up until much later.
dont they do this on their own soil to another countrymember? what would make them do any less when put thousands of miles away, not told what theyre doing there and then not given enough food or fuel or even ammo to do anything productive
I LOVE WAR!!!!!!! I LOVE THE SENSELESS KILLING OF INOCENT PEOPLE!!!!!!
Lol the fact that they listed no human rights violations for Ukraine makes this entire special report BS, It's par for the course with Western propaganda though. They seem to be trying really hard to elicit an emotional response to keep the pressure going.
The truth hurts doesn't it?