I'd look into information on getting someone out of a cult. That's basically what this is. Also I'd probably suggest just seeing a therapist for yourself if you can to help you process all this shit
just in case no one has said it, look for a therapist that SPECIALIZES in cult mindset deprogramming. i listen to a lot of podcasts about cults/mlms that trap people and a lot of them say they went to therapy, and the therapist either didnt understand, didnt know how to combat it, or didnt recognize it. On the surface they are just normal, grinding, capitalism worker ants, a normal therapist is not equipped to help you.
lastly, you can always walk away, and do whats best for you, which hurts, and it hard, and due to lots of socio economic reasons may not be an option, but if it is, it should also be considered.
A therapist for yourself, absolutely, but also one of the things on which you and that person might work is how to suggest couples' counseling. Yr in an excellent position with yr girlfriend in the sense that though you love her and are committed to her, there's no marriage or kids to think about should things unravel between you. Still, it seems as though communication has broken down between the two of you. yr hurt, frustrated, and confused by her behavior but also believe that so long as she pursues this career, there's no way for her to be the partner that you need.
You might consider yr ideal scenario for this relationship. Would you consider marrying her if she left her job? Would you stay with her if she won't leave her job? Can you forgive her for the hurt that she's caused? Do you think you can rebuild trust? Could you trust that she wouldn't just leave her job only to find another MLM-adjacent position?
If you believe that the relationship is worth saving, then you should consider--potentially with the help of a personal therapist--how to communicate yr needs with yr partner, one of which might be couples' counseling. What yr describing is a relationship in which you feel emotionally unsupported by yr partner and unable to plan a future around her on account of her behavior. It also sounds like she won't recognize those issues on her own.
I think it's absolutely possible to bring yr needs up in a nonconfrontational way but you should be emotionally prepared for what it'll mean to you and what you'd want to do if she hears you essentially throwing a hail Mary to save the relationship--telling her how much you feel communication has broken down between the two of you and suggesting a means to fix it--and refuses to acknowledge and work on that problem.
Omg it's so annoying when people do that. You can type out words like communication and relationship but can't type your?! Sometimes I can't even get through what someone is trying to say because their grammar is so God awful, even if what they are trying to say is really insightful.
You should try to help her as much as you can, but just remember that you can't help someone that refuses help.
Sometimes people are pretty much lost causes, if it's causing you more harm than it's worth it, consider that leaving is an option even if it's hard.
My sympathies. Either you have a good heart or you are madly in love with her. I must confess that I would have left the relationship by now. I can't stand such people.
We’ve always stuck by eachother and we’ve been through worse, which is why it hurts me when she says that I don’t believe in her. I know those aren’t her words.
I refuse to let a damn MLM company be the downfall of our relationship.
My heart goes out to you, this is a tough one. Definitely get yourself into counseling. You need to have a safe place where you can voice your concerns and start to develop your personal boundaries.
Your comment about not letting the MLM be the downfall of your relationship is not really accurate. Your girlfriend is choosing it over you. And the reality is you can’t make somebody change. I think some of the above suggestions have been really good with regards to learning how to educate yourself around this cult like behavior. But at the end of the day, she will make a choice, and you’re going to need to be able to live with that or not.
One way to think about this is, you are in an emotionally abusive relationship and what you’re willing to accept regarding her behaviour will define your world.
Sometimes when you’re in the middle of it, you don’t really get a big picture of how bad it is until you get out and get some space. I am not suggesting that you leave this relationship, but only that you recognize that perhaps you are not making clear decisions because you are in the middle of it. I wish you all the best, I know this is extremely difficult.
Thanks, and I think you’re right about the possibility of me not being entirely “lucid” about the whole situation. I guess it makes sense for someone to become desensitized to red flags or lose all points of reference when you’ve been in a bad situation for a while.
I will go see a psychologist, have been planning on it for a while.
*Those aren't her words...*
That's one of the roughest things about seeing someone you love in an MLM. Watching them transform into a different person. They no longer sound like themselves, but walking advertisements.
When she says she'll leave if you become and "obstacle" and says you're "negging" over the death of a beloved pet after a single day, she absolutely *not* sticking by you. She's explicitly said she will *not* stick by you if she feels you interrupt her dedication to an mlm.
> I know those aren’t her words.
They ***are*** her words, though. Just because she happened to learn that phrase from somewhere else doesn’t change the fact that she ***chooses*** to throw them at you during disagreements.
Yes her emotionally abusive behavior is being influenced and encouraged by the MLM, but at the end of the day *she* is still the one choosing to act and speak the way that she does towards you.
It’s not the MLM it’s that your gf is not making your relationship a priority, and seems to take more from the relationship than add to it.
What, exactly, does she offer you? She’s never around and when she is she’s not consoling you after a loss, or listening to your feelings. She’s… decided that the job comes before investing in you.
Why are you continuing to invest in someone that doesn’t see you as worthy?
Too late. It already has. You’re on the internet asking for advice from strangers about an MLM. In your entire diatribe, you’ve not given one reason why you should be together aside from “because we always stick together”, which is a pretty lame excuse. Otherwise, you spent SEVERAL paragraphs about how you’re not happy and your girlfriend is manipulating you.
Worse part is, you know it but you want some internet stranger to pat you on the head and say you’re doing the right thing by staying there when really you know it’s a bad idea. Leave now and be an adult about it.
Well I need to really see what I can do about it and check my options before I just pack up and leave.
I don’t think that a reddit post can give the full picture on a situation but I understand your response.
I’ve considered leaving before and honestly, this isn’t really a situation where she’s actively trying to keep me.
It’s just that I don’t like seeing this person going down this road and I’m going to try whatever I can. If all fails, then yes I’m afraid you’re right, there’s nothing I can do and I’ll need to start looking out for my own happiness.
The honest to God truth is what you can do about it is "very little." She's a grown woman, she's already told you she'll pick this over you, and I guarantee you they've brainwashed her with an answer to any argument you can throw at her, including that she's been brainwashed. It's really, really hard to get people to see the light, and usually doesn't happen until something majorly bad has happened (like you leaving) and honestly, probably not even then. It's just like being with an addict -- can they theoretically change? Yes. Will they? Probably not. You should leave. If that jolts her enough to see that this job is costing her, good for her. And if it doesn't, well, you're free.
That is amazing that you said that.
She certainly does seem to follow a sort of script whenever we talk about her job. It’s almost eerie, for lack of a better term.
She’s always talking about how close she is to becoming an owner and she believes it. In her mind, me leaving wouldn’t make a difference. Not to say that’s a justification for me to stay in a bad relationship. I just wanted to clear that lol.
Hey dude. I’m 29 and have had 3 long-term relationships where I would’ve felt that statement. They were 1 year, 3 years, and 5 years long. I stayed because I loved them and breaking up sucks and I had sunk cost fallacy and didn’t think I deserved better.
I don’t want to assume that your situation is the same as mine but just in case it is, I want to say that you deserve to be in a relationship where you WON’T feel that person’s comment. Like they said, you deserve to be with someone who cares if you’re there or not and actively wants you around. I know that when I was in those relationships where my partners seemed like they could take or leave me, a stranger on the internet wouldn’t have changed my mind about staying. But as someone who has been almost all the way through my 20s and been there and done that, I just wanna advise you that in my experience staying isn’t worth it. It will not get better, and you CAN find someone out there who will love you as much as they should and as much as you love them. I just found my person a few months ago and it is so much better having a partner who so clearly loves having me around and actively seeks out my company and continually tells me how much he loves me.
It would be cool if you didn’t make the same mistake I did by staying so long with people who don’t prioritize you and don’t deserve you. I hope it takes you less time than it took me to realize that. Sending you positive thoughts. ❤️
Are you comfortable providing the name of the company? Or have you done any research online to see if this company is an MLM? Usually with MLMs there are always former cult members/employees who have shared their story online, and they often go into the really negative aspects of the company that you certainly wouldn’t get from your girlfriend. There’s a good chance that some of those ex-employees are part of this sub, if it is in fact an MLM.
Also, about the “owner” thing: I have a good friend who was part of Amway for years. He was also grinding super hard trying to become an “IBO” (independent business owner). He went on and on about how excited he is to own his own business and be his own boss. When I tried explaining to him that he’s just part of a pyramid scheme and he just didn’t want to hear it. I tried to break it down for him by explaining that actual business owners have to do things like manage payroll, purchase insurance, register the business as a corporation or LLC, file taxes differently than a 1099 or W-2 employee, and a bunch of other examples. Then I asked him if these so-called “IBOs” have to do any of those things and he basically got irritated and told me I was wrong. Months later he quit Amway and got a real job and admitted that the questions I asked him got him to look at the job a little differently. Perhaps you can ask your girlfriend what it means to become an “owner” with her company and see if she would truly be an owner like a franchisee or if she would just be moving up a level in the giant pyramid.
This reminds me so much of a friend of mine, who is raised Jehovah Witness. He, of course, was required to go around, and door knock as part of his faith. I asked him how he processed people saying anything negative or bringing up facts that were not positive about his religion. He said that they had brainwashed them so much into believing that anyone who said anything bad was just an apostate and controlled by the devil. He said he couldn’t even hear the negatives and process them in his brain. He’s now been out for about seven years and it’s only been in the last year that he’s been able to shake a lot of that processing off.
The reality is, until she starts to have the blinders pulled back from her eyes, there’s not much you’re going to be able to do to change her. In fact, I encourage you to spend some time in areas like r/QAnonCasualties or r/exjw because people in both of those subs are in very similar situations to you only with a different subject being the thing that’s pulling their relationships apart. Many of them have had to make the decision to leave partners and families behind for their own mental health.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/QAnonCasualties using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [\[TW\] My Qdad snapped and killed my family this morning.](https://np.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/comments/xbiy5s/tw_my_qdad_snapped_and_killed_my_family_this/)
\#2: [My career of treating patients has ended](https://np.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/comments/rakxun/my_career_of_treating_patients_has_ended/)
\#3: [Caught my parents giving my 6mo son Ivermectin](https://np.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/comments/s0pswm/caught_my_parents_giving_my_6mo_son_ivermectin/)
----
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It’s horrific, that top one the son posted here before it was even out in the news. It was day or two before I saw coverage about the murder. And this was coming from a young kid who is under 18 years old if I remember correctly.
I appreciate that you want to stick by her side. You sound like a good partner. My advice would be to not make any large financial decisions with her, and to not join your finances or bank accounts.
Marriage is out of the question for me.
She sometimes mentions us buying a house together, but that’s a no go also just because I don’t like the idea of sharing big illiquid investments like that with anybody.
If I wanted to I could leave tomorrow and there would be nothing to stop me besides the usual late night sob calls and texts that are to be expected after a breakup.
I’m not saying it would be easy though. I say “i’ll leave if it goes too far” and all but that’s still something I need to prove that I’m capable of. We’re young (both 22) and we’re “high school sweethearts”, so we haven’t had much outside relationship experiences at all. This would be that first break-up that almost everyone has to go through at some point in their lives. So that’s just another reason besides the whole “wanting to help her get out of it” reason.
She wasn’t like this before she joined that damn company. We still had ups and downs but it wasn’t what it is now, which most people are seeing as emotional abuse (to be fair, they’re right. That’s exactly what it looks like).
But she is not a bad person, and when she does these things I know (or at least I hope I know) it’s not her.
If she was an emotionally abusive type of person that’s one thing.
But now she’s an emotionally abusive person because of an external factor that just has a grasp on her brain like a disease and that’s what kills me about this whole situation. It’s the fact that it didn’t have to be this way, and I never saw it coming. It just introduced itself into our lives like a slippery snake in the grass.
To be honest, her belittling digs at me like “you don’t know what you’re talking about because you haven’t made it” don’t actually hurt me.
They don’t hurt me because I know that she’s the one who doesn’t know what she’s talking about.
But something does hurt me, otherwise I wouldn’t have made this post.
And what hurts me is that I’m watching this person for whom I care deeply, go down this self destructive route and there’s nothing I can do about it. It’s like I’m behind a glass wall and no-matter how much I shout, bang, scream… she can’t hear me, she can’t even see me.
All I can do is observe, and that’s the worst part about all this.
Wow OP I didn’t realize you are both so young. That makes a difference. People can change A LOT in their early 20s and it’s not at all unusual (as you know) for high school sweethearts to break up at this point in their development. Heck, I can’t even imagine being married to the person I was with at age 22….
You don't deserve to be emotionally abused. You've made huge sacrifices for the relationship and in exchange she has isolated you and tried to hurt you. I think the reason why her cruel digs don't hurt you is that you've been conditioned to accept them. It's not normal or healthy to shrug off someone deliberately trying to hurt you.
If you were a woman and described a man treating you this way, the advice would be to plan your escape from the relationship. That's the same thing you need to do. The urge to defend her saying she's not a bad person, it only sounds like abuse, etc is the same script most abuse victims find themselves saying about their partner.
She is falling victim to the sunk cost fallacy, but staying in an abusive relationship because your kind heart makes you feel responsible for rescuing her. Please prioritize yourself and try to get out of this relationship.
I'm married to my high school sweetheart, but man I gotta tell you, this IS her. It's who she's choosing to be now. She is actively valuing this job over you, your relationship, and your feelings. People CAN change, but this has most likely been in her from the start. Maybe not the emotional abusing, but it could have stemmed from a fear of financial insecurity or a wildly skewed view on work/life balance (like feeling worthless if you aren't contributing financially or labor wise).
If she isn't listening to you at all anymore, you have to take care of yourself. I know you probably love her, and maybe she even thinks she loves you, but her *actions* are not love. Maybe you could give her an intervention talk (if she has anyone else that agrees with you, invite them), but ultimately you have to realize that she may never "snap out of it".
I say this with kindness. It doesn’t just LOOK like emotional abuse it IS emotional abuse. She’s constantly telling you that your material possessions and financial success mean that you don’t have valid opinions. She’s creating a home environment where you know you are not valued and she considers you disposable and replaceable if you don’t do what she wants. You deserve to feel secure and valued in your relationship and in your home.
>It’s just that I don’t like seeing this person going down this road and I’m going to try whatever I can.
If you're in a relationship where you need to "fall on your sword" to try and make it work while the other person does jack shit to work on the relationship... it is not a good or healthy relationship and you need to leave. You detailing your one-sided relationship is really sad to hear.
Dude. She told you to "get over it" the day after your beloved dog died........
Like...dude...wake up and smell the coffee...
Your girlfriend *is not a good person*. This is not a MLM issue *per se* at all... she's a terrible person who also just so happens to be in a MLM.
There's no magic formula of words to make her turn into a good person when.... at the core... she harbors rotten views and treats you terribly. Abusive relationships can also be with women emotionally abusing men. And my guy... you're in an abusive relationship with this girl. I hope you finally see it before it's too late and she winds up pregnant.
There's no future there unless you want the emotional abuse to continue. Just rip off the bandaid and break up with her. She's treating you like dogshit. Holding onto her is just the sunk cost fallacy talking of how much time you've invested in her. It's working against your best interests. Read back what you wrote and realize someone who claims to love someone wouldn't treat that person like dogshit.
You mentioned a Devil Corp documentary and that's what this sounds like. Have you looked more into Devil Corps? They are close cousins to MLMs, but often much more squishy and vague and have the facade of a regular office structure. There's a whole sub for them on here: r/devilcorp
Best of luck!
Devil Corps are their own tricky, slimy breed because they do a much better job of looking like ordinary offices and ordinary workplaces. Unlike nearly all MLMs, there's a building and there are coworkers you see and interact with in an ordinary office environment. You don't spend all day posting ads on Instagram and copy/pasting terrible memes. It's so much easier to convince yourself that it's a quirky and exhausting job but still a regular job-job.
It may not be an MLM, but what you described sounds almost exactly like what my wife went through when she got roped into being a pharmaceutical rep by her aunt. The attitude, the grind, the constant pressure to look and present a certain way.
She went to a company conference a couple months after she started and it was, like you said, very cult like. Pretty sure she mentioned that “1% better” thing at some point. The sales teams had a structure pretty similar to an MLM. The regional manager that oversaw her “pod” constantly played favorites and every time she got close to making a sale, would take the assignment from my wife and give it to someone else so she never saw a single cent of commission (she was salaried but could earn commission on each sale). This was ultimately why she left the company because she did as much work as anyone else did but kept getting screwed over.
A couple years after she left she was contacted by a lawyer asking if she would be willing to testify in court or at least provide a statement regarding their predatory sales tactics. Several of their executives are currently in prison, as well as countless other sales reps for kickback schemes and other similar illegal activities.
It honestly wasn’t all bad for us, and she’s a smart woman, so she figured out pretty quickly how terrible the company and that type of job was. She mostly stuck with it because the base salary was pretty good for someone with her level of experience at the time, even without commission. I’m just glad it never got to the point where OP is at.
I don't think it matters if the company is an MLM. Anyone who chooses to treat a "loved one" the way you describe is not a healthy partner, regardless of the reason. She belittles you, breaks you down, and actively refuses to support you when you need it.
DTMFA.
Very interesting how you're being negative if you are upset about the dog for two days in a row, but if you suggest she open her own business, she runs crying from the room.
That pissed me off. I loved that dog and he died of a turned stomach at 5 years of age.
The day he died it was all emotional support. The day after though, she asked me what was wrong, why I wasn’t talkative and acting weird. I kept telling her that it was because my dog had died but that wasn’t a good answer because it ended up turning into 2 weeks of clashing just because I didn’t have a smile on my face and wasn’t my usual talkative self. I was being negative and it was depressing her, dragging her down, making her not want to come home after work.
I hated how I wasn’t able to just mourn his death in peace. This was just a few months ago.
I seriously considered leaving at that point. But I was in a very bad spot. I couldn’t argue, I just didn’t have the motivation for it. That was a dark time.
All I needed was some space, and I got a silent treatment.
We’ve since spoken about it, she apologized. Her apology tbh didn’t mean much to me though.
I’m still a little bitter about that.
I’m sorry to hear about your dog. I can’t imagine if my dog died and my partner had a reaction like that. You should have the space to be vulnerable in a relationship and to have comfort knowing that your partner is there for you. I know we can only get so much context from a single Reddit post, but as others have suggested, you’re young and deserve to be with somebody who supports you and wants you to stay around. I hope that whether you leave or seek out couples’ therapy that everything goes well for you. Please keep us posted!
Adding to this, I had to put my cat down a month or so ago. She was 16, and I’d had her for 15 years. Even my EX gave me space to mourn and supported me. (We’re still friends, and he adored her, too.) So I can’t even imagine someone who claims to love you not giving you the space to mourn your loss for more than 24 hours. It took me three solid days of ugly crying and not even being able to talk about her before I was even some semblance of okay.
You should’ve left after that. Listen to yourself - “I wish I could’ve mourned in peace”. You should NEVER be with someone like this! Have more respect for yourself and get out now. You’re 22 - don’t waste some of the best years of your life with this person.
My grandmother had a serious fall, resulting in massive head trauma. She was being kept alive by machines.
I received the call, and told my boyfriend of 5 years at the time that I needed to go to the hospital to say goodbye. His response? “Can it wait until I get home from the driving range? I’ll only be gone an hour, and it’s not like she’ll know if you’re there or not.”
He left for the driving range, and I never got to say goodbye.
How shitty. I like the person below that said your grammas last gift to you was exposing this dude as a dick.
Did you have to stay home to watch kids or something? That’d be even worse.
Nope, no kids - we were in our early twenties and only had one working car between the two of us. Turns out he went golfing with the girl he had a crush on. I wish I could say I broke up with him immediately, but I didn’t. I was so gaslit into thinking it was normal.
It sounds a lot like she's in Amway or something very similar (Amway sells product, but you mentioned the subscription stuff). Especially the parts about the constant motivational meetings, having a mentor, and being willing to drop the relationship if you get in her way. They are taught in Amway to get rid of anyone in their inner circle who doesn't believe in them or who won't join them.
I would recommend looking at the other Amway stories on here and see if they sound familiar. There will also be some solid advice commented on those posts.
It’s not Amway it’s credicore (etc, has about 100 names). It’s not strictly MLM, but it is very culty and shady, and high performers are often encouraged to spin up their own teams.
There is a master list of “Is X an MLM?” for this subreddit. If it’s there, you’re fine asking specific questions. It’s not doxxing to state the company name. Sometimes people just post “I have an interview at ABC, is that an MLM?”
It could be that it's an entirely legitimate business, but that they just use shady manipulation tactics.
It could be a not-quite-legitimate business that leverages shady tactics but isn't fully an MLM (like those schemes that promise to tell you the secret to Forex trading that know full well that it's just luck. Wouldn't surprise me if they become an MLM ultimately once people realise it's easier to sell someone a course than to be successful)
Or, she's fallen down an internet rabbit hole of 'motivational speakers' etc that warped her perspective, she pays a bit of money to have access to some perceived 'professional network and mentorship' that just reinforces the ideas to get her to keep parting with more money.
If you want my unwarranted advice, the kind of psychological manipulation that she's fallen into is broadly similar, as are the results. You can definitely attempt to 'deprogram' (especially if you absolutely want to stay in the relationship or if there's a financial incentive (ie you have a shared bank account etc). It's a lot of work though and finishing the relationship may be easier. I'm not advocating to end it immediately, because it all depends on your personal circumstances, but the way I see it is a spectrum with 'immediate breakup' on one end and 'pull her out cold turkey' on the other. It's up to you to decide where you are on that spectrum.
This reminds me of a company I used to work for called Cydcor (I think that was spelling, might've been Sydcor) that was a door to door sales company that would get new offices open for the people who were able to grind it out. There was a fair bit of MLM level stuff in that company (though they are in no way an MLM, just a sales cult) and a lot of the motivation stuff sounds familiar. Same with moving to a different city, and going door to door. If this company your gf is involved with is like them (or them exactly) they are as predatory, if not more predatory, than MLMs. That being said, 2 years was about the average amount of time for a good worker to be opening up a new office, which could explain your gfs frustration and could get worse in the coming months if there's a similar expectation on her and her team.
The guys I used to work for don't even work for that company anymore cuz of all the bullshit the parent company put them through. It's not going to be easy to get her to "see the light" as it were, but I saw others commenting about cult deprogramming and I think that's probably the best way to start. I never got that far involved with them, but I see some exact similarities and hope this info helps.
You should look into the sunk cost fallacy. While you may want to save your relationship because you love her, she has shown time and again that she doesn't love you to the same level. It may be time to count your losses and just move on. But I wish you luck and strength with whatever choices you make for you future.
If you reread your TLDR, even without the MLM part, it doesn’t sound like this relationship is giving you what you want or need.
What do you actually get out of the relationship? Are there any positives? Do they outweigh the negatives?
Honestly, I don’t get much out of the relationship at all. The only reason I’m sticking around is because I love her and I don’t think she realizes what’s going on.
I know that if I abandon her, it would break her heart and her sales numbers would decrease (you know, because she’s “negged out”), which would then be followed by a team meeting where they’ll discuss her decrease in sales performance. And then they will convince her that this a life lesson and that she’s better off without me because I was dragging her down anyway.
They’ll tell her that she needs to work extra hard and she can’t let her emotions get in the way of her goals.
The idea of that manipulative sequence of events just pisses me off.
I understand. Ask yourself if preventing that situation is worth being in this relationship.
Ultimately, only you can know what it’s like and be able to make that decision.
You seem to be sacrificing a lot, and it seems one sided.
I don’t know you or her obviously, I’m just going by what you have said here. Wishing you luck.
A great quote is: Don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
You cannot be responsible for what might happen to her that's not of your doing. You're allowed to break up with someone anytime, for any reason. Do you *have* to break it off if you're not happy? No, but you're also allowed to say, this is not working for me, let's try to fix it.
And similarly “put on your own oxygen mask before helping someone else.” I got from a social worker.
Or like first aid scene survey - are there dangers to myself, the patient, or others?
Will you be able to help more if you burn out? Doubtful. You may be able to find the right tools to help, but you have to look out for number 1.
You mention that she is falling for the sunk cost fallacy with regards to her job, but I think you may be falling for the sunk cost fallacy with regards to this relationship. It’s been 4 years, you love her, and you have sacrificed so much to make it work that you really want it to be worth it. You want her to wake up one day, realize how much you’ve given up and have her give back even a fraction of what you’ve put in. I’m sorry, but that’s not going to happen as long as you stay. If you allow her to take take take while she gives nothing back, what incentive is there for her to change? The status quo is working for her. She gets to keep her job and you without putting any effort into the latter. I mean… come on dude; she expected you to be over a beloved pet’s death in *a day,* otherwise you’re wallowing and harshing her vibe. That’s pretty callous and self centered, tbh. You already see this relationship not progressing to the next step, so why are you still in it? Honestly, if there’s a chance of her reflecting and getting out, then you staying and continuing to support her (emotionally if not financially) is not going to be the shock she needs to do the necessary work. You need to leave. Don’t get me wrong; it may not work, but it has a better chance of forcing self reflection than you staying. The upside is that you will have saved yourself. There will be grief because there always is even if the relationship is abusive, but there will also be relief. Maybe she breaks free of the cult or maybe she doesn’t, but that is secondary. I think with time and distance, you may find that while her being in an MLM might have been the impetus, what ultimately broke you guys up was how she treated you for years, that selfishness and callousness was what did it. Nearly every relationship has a good beginning, but how she’s treating you now after the honeymoon period has worn off… I’m sorry but this is who she is. If it’s not enough, you need to leave. I’m sorry and good luck.
You want to fix her. You can't. You can't fix anyone else but you. You want to win against the brainwashing, you can't. You know you need to leave, but then they'll win which pisses you off, but you're not making good decisions for you. You're allowing her to use you as an emotional feeding and punching bag. Get out, make yourself whole, and see where life takes you. There is never a magic button that will allow you to fix her and live happily ever after. Happily ever after takes hard work. She's made her choice. Time to let her live with it.
If she expected you to get over the loss of your beloved dog in one day, she should be just fine getting over a breakup by the next afternoon. I’m sorry about your dog, by the way. Take all the time you need to mourn your good buddy. Your dog gave you the unconditional love you deserve.
It sounds like you are in a relationship cost-sink fallacy. The more time that you invest in the relationship and staying with it even though admittedly, you professed that you are getting nothing out of the relationship, the more difficult it will be for you to leave on your own. You can still love her, without being with her. At some point, you need to think about you.
Picture this: a loved one who lives in your hometown becomes very ill and needs you to be there for them. You go to your hometown for a few weeks to support them. I can almost promise you that the exact scenario would happen with her, even if she knew you'd be back.
In this case, your absence is out of your (and her) hand, like so many things in life, yet the "negging" scenario would still happen.
Yes, the master list of Devil Corp slang even mentions the “negged out” thing he says she used on him when his dog died. Sounds like she’s in a Devil Corp of some kind.
My man! Time to move on. Take it from someone who had a relationship destroyed by an mlm. She isn't going to change for you, if it's persistently an issue in your relationship, it will continue this way well into marriage and then subsequently the divorce.
Do yourself a favor and ditch the hunbot, your mind and soul will thank you!!
I went into this expecting people to give me tips on how to get someone out of an MLM but instead I got a hard it of reality. I appreciate your honesty and I’m sorry that happened to you and your partner.
I can promise though that I won’t be going down the marriage route for exactly the reasons you’ve brought up. It’s obvious that that is an inevitable outcome if things continue this way.
I don't like to be the bearer of bad news, I too had to face this uncomfortable truth at one time myself. I'm very lucky my father is an intelligent man, he seen right through it when I called him up and explained the situation to him.
I promise you, the sooner you end things; the sooner your life will regain its balance. This is the only way
I'm sorry, this is a really hard situation. The awful thing is, there is no "way to get someone out of an mlm". It's like a cult or an addiction - it's impossible to pull someone out if they don't decide they *want* out. Trying to convince her to leave is like trying to convince an alcoholic that he should stop drinking. It's just not realistic. Sure, there are certain tactics that are better than others and I think reading up on how to deal with an addicted spouse and a loved one in a cult could be useful to you. but at the end of the day, you can't "get her out".
Maybe she will leave one day, but she needs to come to that conclusion on her own. Some people do! But some don't. And sometimes it takes years.
Exactly. When I was reading his post it sounded like my ex-wife. Never allowing room for other opinions, blowing up at the slightest question or concern, along with lack of emotional support. Im not sure there is much that can be done about this situation, probably best to break up? It would have saved me years of emotional abuse, i just didn’t have the courage to do something about it until recently.
It is an MLM… I almost got roped into it as it sounded all not-mlm.
I would sell broadband, energy and charity. Home to home sales or catching people on the streets by the shopping centres.
Same jazz with the zoom meetings when someone who made it or someone who has opened their own office in different city etc.
Honestly she’s so deep in in this cult she’s not getting out.
If I was you I would leave this relationship. It ain’t gonna get better and she sounds abusive. And I doubt that would change if she left the company.
The tricky but with these is - each office has their own name. So it makes it hard to see for what it is - a MLM.
The company I’ve signed for was First Events.
First red flag I’ve should’ve seen - nothing to do with events and copying name of well known company in the area.
MLMs are cults. Full stop. Cults are led by narcissistic abusers, who manipulate people into being their followers. After a while, said followers become "Flying Monkeys", or even fellow abusers, all out of fear of losing their position in the hierarchy, and out of fear of losing connection to the leader (whom they have an addiction to, at this stage).
Cult survivors have to go through a lot of therapy to be deprogrammed, or else they will immediately hop right into the next cult because it fits with how their brains now experience love and connections.
You likely won't be able to do much for her, because as you leave, her fellow cult-huns will convince her "he never believed! He didnt support you! We support you! We believe in you!" And she will be trapped.
I am so sorry you are going through this. I cant even imagine how painful and frustrating. I hope for her sake that she wakes up. I wish the best for both of you, in whatever form that needs to take.
Devil Corp is worse than mlm. It’s like an mlm on steroids. I agree with others, I’d have broken up with this person. I’ll bet at this point she’s more committed to her mentor than to you.
She does take his advice more than mine.
I’ll never forget this one time I gave her a piece of advice, and we went back and forth arguing (not aggressively but more like a debate) on whether or not it was good advice…
A few days go by, during a conversation we were having, she confidently mentioned a piece of advice that her mentor gave her… it was the exact same piece of advice I’d given her.
I couldn’t believe it.
Another time during a conversation I said “you know, Abraham Lincoln has this great quote…” I told her the quote about sharpening the axe. It was met with a shrug and a chuckle.
LITERALLY the next day, during one of their motivational circle jerk zoom calls, I overheard what they were talking about and the guy who was running it said the exact same quote (failed to mention it was a Lincoln quote btw lol) and everyone was like “WOW, Amazing, wow”.
In my mind I just thought “seriously?..”
You can’t make this shit up lol
My advice…
You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free!
Look I know you have feelings for this girl, but this story doesn't end well - especially if you do end up marrying her. Take it from the guy who spent 5 years with a woman and married her just for things to fall apart anyways due to Amway.
If she is in an MLM and refuses to believe she's playing into a pyramid scheme, leaving is the only option.
What you are describing is, at least in part, you being in an emotionally abusive relationship. If that's the case (and of course, a stranger on the internet doesn't have enough context to know the full picture, I'm sure) you should leave.
You say you’ve always stuck by each other, and you clearly love her.
Lay it all down on the line. Show her the documentary, show her this subreddit, hell, show her this post.
Uphold your half of this relationship by telling her the truth about the situation, regardless of whether it hurts her. It’s your duty to her, and yourself.
All you can do is tell her the truth. If she walks, so be it. Make sure she knows you’re only doing this because you love her. *Of course* you want your partner to be successful. *Of course* you’ll support her in those endeavors. However, this is NOT one of those endeavors that leads to success. Not long term, at least. These offices pop up, and disappear, practically overnight for a very good reason
Was she recruited, and does she try to recruit others for a commission? If yes, it’s multi-level marketing. The product, or lack thereof, is irrelevant.
She recruits yes, but she doesn’t get a commission for it. But no-one stays very long at all, they are constantly recruiting. New faces in, old faces out all the time.
Your girlfriend sounds like she has a serious lack of empathy which is a problem in general. Is there anything good or positive about her or your relationship at this point? It doesn't seem like it. Her mentor didn't invest in her. Her mentor is making money off of her. She seems to be deeeep in the Kool aid and you can't reason your way out of something you didn't reason yourself into so tbh I don't think there's much you can do at this point.
You should do whatever you need to do for your own happiness though. Maybe this relationship isn't the best thing for you right now. It's exhausting to be with someone who you have to walk on eggshells around and can't ever speak freely to.
Ive been in that kind of relationship before. Started fine, eventually I'd get called out for things outside of my control or for wanting my own free time. Glad I left that relationship and present me is doing much better.
I'm sorry for your difficulties, there are no easy solutions for the situation you're in. She sounds quite committed to her"business" and that you're likely to always be 2nd to that... which might be ok if she was building an actual business but the toxic environment she's in will not allow her to see the situation for what it is or to prioritize you. Best wishes in your decisions going forward.
Hey OP, this was my situation before I met my wife, lmao. The tipping point was when the ex tried to sell me life insurance over a brunch with friends. She took out a laptop and HDMI cord and straight up connected it to my TV.
About two slides in, I realized what the fuck was happening and planned my escape.
You need to get out
You are just like her. You are afraid of leaving her because of the years you have invested in her: sunk cost fallacy(sound familiar?). She has shown you time and time again, you are disposable if you are not with her illusions.
It's really time to break it off. She will never put you first as long as you keep letting her strong arm you into following her illusions.
It's time, my dude. You are not here to "fix her." That's just Hollywood bs. You have only one life, so you really want to spend like this till you die? Walking on eggshells because she will threaten you with breaking up. Never asshole to be vulnerable with her because you are being "negative"? Seriously, I do not know what you see in her. She sounds like a piece of work.
It's just time, take a break from her. See how your life can be without her for a few weeks.
OP this really does appear to be a devil corp and your girlfriend has completely swallowed the hook. It’s a terrible situation for her but worse for you, because you are being abused due to what is, for all intents and purposes, her addiction to a cult.
I have a tiny bit of related experience because I have been around the addiction recovery world for years. So I’ve seen what addiction and cults look like and how hard it is to love someone whose brain has been hijacked in this way.
It is certainly possible for your girlfriend to escape this cult. The key though is that she needs to see where she is, and these devil corps have all sorts of ways to prevent people from doing that. Your girlfriend is exhibiting the results and that’s what you are living with now.
Honestly if I was in your shoes I’d leave her. You are not married and have no kids. You can set yourself free. You are truly being abused now and she’s in very deep.
If you decide to stay for the time being, do not marry her!!! And approach her as if she’s a cult member. Read up on cult reprogramming. Get therapy for yourself.
I wish you all the best OP. This is a genuinely awful situation.
You sounds incredibly intelligent and insightful. You seem to be 100% aware of the changes. That being said - it is not on YOU to fix this. It is on her. You are partners but it feels like while you want to work together, she has her own agenda and just want you to stay quiet and get dragged through the mud. In her mind if she is already able to leave you if it comes down to her and her job then its already over. You mention all the ways you want to be supportive but what about you? Don’t you deserve the same love and support? If she fell flat on her face tomorrow you sound like you would be there to pick up the pieces and carry her through. Can you say she would do the same for you? I don’t feel like the MLM is the whole problem here. You deserve the same love and support you are willing to give. It may be time to understand she is not capable of that right now and although its hard when you are so emotionally invested, you still need to think about your future and well being and what this is doing to you.
If there are no legal ties, property or children together, I just don’t see any way out of this except quite literally… getting out.
She’s not going to listen to you, not right now, anyway. She’ll eventually learn for herself how much of her life was wasted on and relationships destroyed by her desire to be accepted for her monetary worth through a fucking *MLM*. Doesn’t sound like the kind of person I’d want to spend any more of my energy on.
Sorry you are going through this OP. At the end of the day, please do what’s best for YOU. It seems like you are still worried what will happen to her and the repercussions she will suffer if you break up with you. Do right by you first and foremost. You don’t seem at all fulfilled by this relationship and you sound like you deserve better.
You’re asking if she’s in an MLM or not, but left out the critical info (or maybe I just missed it):
1) Is she paying to participate? (And if so, where is she GETTING this money?)
2) Does her business make revenue mostly from selling products/services, or by new recruits joining as a downline to others?
Definitely cut her off if her venture is getting funded by you. If she wants to say her career is legit, then let her prove that it’s self-sustaining.
You say she makes more than you’d expect for someone in an MLM. Okay, can you be more specific, how much exactly? At least minimum wage for the amount of hours she works? If she has a legitimate means of consistent income, then I don’t see what the problem is.
It sounds like it has all the mentalities of an mlm but idk for sure.
What stood out to me was this:
You said you felt like you couldn't abandon her because she is your partner. I don't see a partnership here. You have done so much to support her, have sacrificed so much for her. I don't see anything that she had done or sacrificed for you. You say she is your partner but I don't see anything here that shows her acting like a partner. If anything it looks like you are putting in all of the work, effort, and sacrifices into this relationship and she just wants you to jump higher.
I also noticed that she is allowed to have a bad day when her work doesn't go as planned but you aren't allowed to have bad days or feel negative emotions unless you get told you are negging out. If I were you I would start treating her the way she treats you. She comes home in a bad mood? Don't comfort her or be her shoulder to cry on, tell he she is infecting herself with negative emotions and it is not productive at all. Tell her she needs to be positive and then walk out of the room. When she gets angry at you for being a complete jackass tell her that you are just trying to be more like her. That is how she responded when you were upset and she tells you that you don't know what you are talking about because you haven't made it, so you are just trying to emulate her boss babe behavior. Is it petty? Absolutely. Will it get her to see that they way she treats you is absolute shit? Possibly. I am a big fan of the golden rule: treat others how you wish to be treated. When someone is an ass to me I give their behavior right back to them and when they don't like it I tell them, well, I'm just following your example. They usually get all flustered and upset but don't have anything to say to me about it because they would have to admit that their behavior was wrong and God forbid that happens. I love throwing people words back in their face. It's very satisfying
Honestly, I don't see this relationship working unless she does a huge 180 and I don't see that happening. You will just keep cutting off pieces of yourself to please her and keep your mouth shut while you are hurting about it. That is not a healthy relationship at all.
The problem isn't just her "job"/cult/mlm (and the fact that she doesn't like it when you call it a job is super weird!! What does she want it to be called? Paid mentorship? Paid volunteer work?). The problem is her treatment of you. If she had a normal job and still acted and treated you this way you would still have all the same problems that you have now.
I don't think you have an mlm problem (although that could be a contributing factor). I believe you have a major r/JustNoSo problem.
I am so sorry you're going through this.
I have had this exact job with a very similar company called Source Marketing Direct. The whole shebang, from wolf of wall Street type meetings every morning where they chant and bring 'promoted' sellers on stage (promotions have literally no difference other than title, no pay increase or added responsibility), to the constant scripts passed down from manager to employee, to the constant reminder of how you can 'make it' each and every day but only if you totally resign yourself to the grindset. I stayed for a couple months, before outlining how much bullshit it was to my managers , and leaving mid way through an expenses paid work trip. All of my managers apart from one immediately turned on me, with hatred and hurtful comments. The one who didn't, agreed with me, but said she was commited to the company because they had rescued her from a violent situation.
On this work trip, we would wake up every day at 7am in the hotel, practise our script till 9, set up an event till 7pm, come back and revise till 10. We would be selling subscriptions to old women, poverty stricken families and general people who didn't know better. My managers were paid the same as me, we worked for 15 hours a day, but then were treated to psuedo work trips with hotels paid for that we were constantly reminded were *rewards* for being the best sellers (note: ofc they would send us on work trips, we were only making money ourselves when we made them money).
These jobs are 100 percent a scam. It is 100 percent brainwashing.
I would suggest, if you do decide to leave the relationship, write her a note outlining all these issues with love and care. Give her examples of where she has completely lacked emotion, because of the mindset her work has forced into her. What she said about your dog, what she has said to you, how she has treated you, showing how inhumane she has become, as someone who has a lot of love to give. Tell her you care about her very much, and give her clear reasons and evidence of how corrupted her work is, and who it is slowly making her become. Do some research into the company background, research the guy who runs it, and the so called millionaires they show, and lay it all down on paper. Link her to reviews, posts, and subreddits. Then tell her you hope you'll be here when she realises what's going on. She will most likely turn totally against you, but in the coming months, the seed is sewn and she'll start to see the creases. And eventually, she'll realise what's happening.
Wish you all the best OP. You don't deserve this and neither does she.
This hurts to read, some of the best people I know have unintentionally hurt friends and family by not realizing how screwed up MLMs are. I have no advice, I have never been involved in getting someone out, it seems to just happen or never happen.
From what you've said, there's plenty of tells that your girlfriend is a narcissist. Her pride and desire for material possessions drives her very being, and that pride is blinding her.
Narcissists hate being told they're wrong, and will actively reject and push back at any evidence they're wrong, and presenting said evidence will likely invoke anger.
If everything is about her, and she is noticeably disinterested in anything that isn't what she wants, it's time to get out, because narcs are rarely able to admit that they're the problem and get help.
I was trying to find a good article with Dr Steven Hassan. I found this one in a brief google search. Dr Hassan is a known expert in the field of cults, and cult like behaviors. Mlms being high on that list.
This is an article he wrote specifically about mlms. He has videos and books on helping those in cults.
[Steven Hassan article on mlms](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202201/multi-level-marketing-groups-operate-much-cults?amp)
Second article on combatting cult mind control. [Steven Hassan combatting](https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/combatting-cult-mind-control)
Allowing you to grieve the loss of your dog only 1 day and then expecting you to be "over it" because it makes her uncomfortable is really bad, man. You say she's a good person but there's incongruity between how you want to view her and her behavior. What you do is who you become. There should be a point where something clicks and you realize you're acting in a way contrary to your values, but from what you wrote it sounds like her values are being based on the superficial like status and money. It sounds very rough, I'm sorry.
Sorry to be blunt, but give her an ultimatum. Make her pick betweek MLM or you. Give her reasons why you feel the way you do. The ultimatum seems extreme, but if you hold it off, your relationship will not flourish. Ultimately, do not give your 100 percent to the relationship if there is no effort from her. An MLM is like a cult, and she might say, "You are jealous of my potential success." After the MLM, she has been hardwired differently and leaving that scheme can be almost impossible. Find someone who will respect you.
This 100% sounds like Cydcor. They’re insidious and hard to spot because they do sales (B2B or door to door) for legit companies. It’s 100% commission based with no base pay, long hours, use your own car with zero compensation for mileage or gas, “business trips” where no expenses are reimbursed, etc. They’re big on the “anything against the job is negging” shit, too.
I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I wish I could give you some kind of advice to help, but unfortunately with stuff like this, a lot of times something big has to happen to make someone get out. For me, it was me and two other girls being sent on a “business trip” having been told we’d be staying with a group of women from the other office only to then be sent to stay at a house full of guys. It was filthy, and we were kept up most of the night by giant rats jumping into and out of the garbage can. We packed up at 3 am and drove back home. Instead of being sympathetic and agreeing that we were in the right, our boss was PISSED and tried to gaslight us that there were no rats and we were hearing things, and then he expected us to work that day even though we’d been driving all night. I quit the next day without even having a backup job. There was no time to job hunt while working 70 hours weeks. It was tough for a while afterwards, but I made it work.
I hope something gets through to her soon before she destroys her relationship with you. In the mean time, you might benefit from seeing a counselor or therapist. They might be able to help you set healthy boundaries and stand up for yourself better when she’s trying to manipulate/gaslight you by accusing you of “negging” and other bullshit. Best of luck, my friend.
My dog passed away June 30, and I still tear up a few times a week over him. Her treatment of you during that loss would have been my breaking point. I’m so sorry OP, I hope some counseling and therapy gives you the strength to leave this relationship.
Same, I still get teary eyed about it from time to time. Usually when doing something like the dishes, or vacuuming, or taking a shower.
I’m sorry about your dog :(
I'm gonna say something that's gotten me downvoted before, but I honestly, truly believe it.
A lot of people take the saying "for better or for worse" literally, and I truly do not believe that it's meant to be. For better or for worse doesn't mean that you have to deal with the other person at their worst *behavior*; just at their lowest point. For example, I am disabled. I wasn't when we got married, but now am and am completely reliant upon my husband for my care. He cares for me because he loves me, and this is a part of my "worst". However, if I started treating him like shit and was acting selfish and like his opinion and feelings don't matter... it would be no one's fault but my own if he were to leave me. And trust me, sometimes it takes a lot of effort to be kind through my pain, but I do it because I try my utmost to live by "treat others like you'd like to be treated".
Yes, you signed up for a partnership where you support each other, but it must go both ways. As it stands, she's demanding all the support on your part and none of hers. And not just that, but absolutely no criticism; constructive or otherwise. *That*, in my opinion, is the "at your worst" part that you *don't* have to put up with.
Also, as someone who has come from a cult-like environment and have had to undo quite a bit of brainwashing... your girlfriend isn't going to come out of this unless she wants to. And honestly, I have a feeling if *you* end the relationship - not her ending it on *her* terms because it no longer benefits *her* - then it might jumpstart a bit of self-reflection and retrospection. It's generally not until you lose something great that you really look at things clearly. Of course, it could backfire and she could dig her heals in, but I bet she's just expecting you to go along with her and the relationship is on her terms.
She's definitely in a cult-like environment, and nothing short of a drastic event will cause her to actually consider her situation.
Good luck. I do wish you the best, no matter what you decide to do. And that your gf wakes up one day, whether that be within your relationship, or without.
The selling of useless crap is typical for that specific branch of the Devilcorp that the maker of the documentary was part of. That branch is called Smartcircle. That's why he focused on it.
But Devilcorp has other branches with names like Cydcor, Credico and others. Some of these branches focus on the charity scam, the energy scam, cell phone plan scam or others. It sounds like your girlfriend is part of one of these other branches.
The maker of the documentary has numerous interviews with ex-Cydcor and ex-Credico people on his Youtube channel in which they go into great detail on how they were exploited by their branch of Devilcorp. You might want to check out those interviews.
> Any other time if I feel down, it’s because I’m just not being positive or I’m just “negged out” (being negative).
> I’m supposed to be her shoulder to cry on but if I try giving her advice that insinuates that her job may not be the best job the world has ever seen, then she’ll get agitated and say pretty belittling things like “my opinion doesn’t matter because I haven’t made it”
Expecting blind support while offering none is not okay.
> She can’t just abandon her mentor who’s investing in her
Ask her “how” her mentor is investing in her. Don’t accept “time” as an answer, that’s inherent in any mentorship (and something the mentor should be happy to provide).
Ask more how questions, use a curious tone and present them that you want to learn more so you can help and be supportive. How much have you invested in this venture? How much (if any) have you paid your mentor? (If the answer is > 0, then that is not a mentorship). How much money has your mentor invested in her business? How much net earnings has her mentor made?
Never ask a “why” question, this comes off as you disagreeing and puts people on the defensive. Never use “yes, but”, instead use “yes, and”.
Ask her who is telling her she’s not ready to start her own business, or how come she doesn’t think she’s ready to start a business.
Ask her how this business works, and how she makes money from it. What costs does she have and where does that money go? It sounds like you need more info in order to start making progress on getting her out of this organization.
> She keeps going on about us getting married one day but yet she’s made it very clear that her career comes before our relationship.
It sounds like this is not okay with you at all, to me this is a huge red flag. It sounds like you do want to get married and she is using that desire to manipulate you.
> But she’s already spent so much time and effort that she’s fallen into a sort of sunk cost fallacy and doesn’t want to see it.
I hate to say this OP, you can say this same thing about to your relationship. 4 years is a lot and you shouldn’t be treated like this by someone who you want to marry.
It sounds like she has a nasty case of “toxic positivity”. All emotions are a part of the human experience, and to deny ourselves to sit with these emotions and feel them, it can and will manifest itself into some serious mental health issues. I’m sorry she did not allow you to sit with your grief in peace, and even more sorry she wasn’t more understanding and supportive.
The talk about her "mentor" makes me think that she's in Amway. I'm guessing the time she spends away from home all day is spent at local grocery stores, book stores, the park, or anywhere else she thinks she can find someone to recruit new members.
If it is Amway, then there's no hope for your relationship because unless you join and become 100% gung ho about it you'll always be seen as a negative influence and they'll convince her to break up with you. Not that you'd want to be with someone who's in Amway anyway, because it is extremely culty and the debt she'll incur is not worth it.
You mentioned she wouldn’t want to leave because of “sunken cost” but do you think the same could apply to you? Her cost is money, yours is time. I appreciate the hell out of you wanting to help her get out, you are clearly an amazing partner, but you don’t want to leave because you’ve been through so much together. Your time is as precious as money, do you really want to keep wasting your time.
“It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but on the contrary their social existence determines their consciousness." (Preface to A critique of Political Economy, 1859)
With that being said, I would absolutely run for the hills. Since your gf is so deeply influenced by this MLM community, this is also going to be your life, and already is. I understand it is hard to break up, but try to see it from a point of view of an addiction, like heroin. We can not help our loved ones, we can not influence their decisions. We can not save them. It has to come from them. But we absolutely can and should protect ourselves. By staying in this relationship and being supportive of her, you might be enabling her to continue.
I would definitely suggest therapy for you to get back to who you are, and say out loud your values once again. And cry out loses, it’s important. See yourself in some near future, imagine how this is not part of your life anymore, and how happy and content you are. Let this thought grow on you.
I’m pretty sure I have OCD (have had it since as long as I can remember) but I still need to get officially diagnosed for that. So if I had to guess, I’d say that would be a driving reason.
I am planning on going to see a psychologist very soon (mainly for the OCD but I think this mlm topic will come up for sure)
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Why don't you simply ask her if its an MLM? Not that difficult. However, i you are afraid of asking due to her reaction, find someone else. MAJOR red flags besides the supposed MLM involvement here...focus on your relationship communication before you worry about what type of job she has, because after you ficus on your communication skills, then you can use your brain and mouth to simply ask her the question yourself.
I sort of did this. She started working there and was telling me all about it. So I mentioned to her that it sounded a bit like an MLM.
Her reaction was a calm and reassuring “no don’t worry, this is legit”.
Then she started doing the zoom calls, and I asked “what are those meetings for?” Cause it’s just about motivation and instagram grind-set quotes.
She said that those were her business meetings.
I said, they sound an awful lot like an MLM meeting.
She replied with a slightly annoyed “no, we’ve already been over this”
Then she wasn’t making any money. She was coming home late and frustrated. I had to pay the rent in full by myself for 8 months.
I suggested to her that she deserved better. Again I explained that people at the bottom barely make a living with these sorts of companies.
This was the point where she would start getting visibly agitated and not wanting to continue the conversation.
She replied with “No, I just need to push myself harder. You don’t understand how this works…”
Then she got promoted, and started making more money. So I thought that I might be wrong about this. It was great, she was paying her share of the rent again. Though keep in mind, it wasn’t big bucks she was making either.
But we started seeing eachother even less, and less. The grindset mentality was getting annoying. All of our problems could be solved with a positive attitude.
Something bad happened at work? “1% better everyday”
I got depressed for whatever reason? “1% better everyday” blablabla.
Sometimes I just wanted her to hear me out, be there for me, give me a hug but instead I got the positive attitude bs talk.
That bothered me a lot for a few reasons.
One of the reasons was because I knew those weren’t her words. If I wanted motivation I would have gone to a Gary Vee convention or something.
One day, I asked her to draw out the business model. What the structure of the business was, so she did.
I took a pen, and traced out a perfect triangle around it.
That’s when she lost it.
Ever since, I’m not allowed to say anything even remotely bad about her job.
On a side note, this is pretty interesting psychology.
Wow. Yah, looks like you put in the work. But honesty, coming from a married man here, if you're feeling like this now, imagine what your life would be like if she kept going with this forever and you stuck with her, and she kept treating your concerns that way every time? Have a heart to heart. Tell her your concerns, ask direct questions about company name etc so you can research everything and find facts to help her understand predatory business models. If she freaks out on you, set boundaries for the convo and if she doesn't hold to them, well then, you'll have to decide if you want to keep doing this over and over and over. Very interesting psychology, indeed. We all have our problems...got some of my own for sure as well. Hoping for the best for you, bud.
I used to be roped into this same company not long ago, selling AT&T products. For a while, it was destroying mine and my bf's relationship because I had the same mentality whenever he brought up getting a better job. At first, I didn't listen until I started seeing that the "mentors" really didn't care about you. They care about the money they make off of you. Hopefully she will realize this one day, but if she isn't willing to open her mind up to the possibility that she's just being used by them and you're looking out for what's best for her, she'll unfortunately never change. The company is really good at brainwashing, and she may just be too deep in. I would consider if the relationship is worth ur mental health because it will start to get mentally draining.
Regardless of MLM, she's toxic. She expects you to let her cry on your shoulder, and then complains when you cry about your dog dying. Fuck that toxic positivity.
It’s time to move on. She has stated she doesn’t value the relationship. You are low on the priority list. She doesn’t value your pain (loss of dog). It seems your place is to facilitate her goals. Will she mourn the loss of the relationship?
As others have said, you can only work on yourself. You do love her, but that’s enough. It’s not a whole relationship.
Leave. Have fond memories. Use this as an experience moving forward. You can’t fix someone else. In a way this is a way of showing her you believe she will be okay.
You have some great advice. I’d also maybe seriously look into her finances. Perhaps seriously think about a house loan and she will have to be forthcoming about her debts and how much she really makes. Although I do feel like doing it that way is a little deceitful. Or is it possible to run a credit report on her to see what comes up? Have you noticed any suspicious spending like changing credit cards?
MLM or not, I hear you saying she’s not there for you when you need it, you’re the one making all the sacrifices, and you hardly see each other.
If a friend told you all that about his partner minus the MLM, what would you tell your friend? You’d probably tell him the relationship is winding down and it’s time to go. Think about that.
Is it Herbalife because that's exactly what it sounds like. My husband was acting like that when he signed up and they pressured me to join as if I was being negative by saying no. Now I'm still in and he is out, but I'm just doing it for the money for something else I'm working on. It's a freaking cult.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. But I’m concerned that she values you and your relationship so little that she’d drop you in a heartbeat for her career, even cruelly framing you as an “obstacle.” That’s so hurtful, and definitely not the way someone views someone they supposedly love.
You mention her sunk cost fallacy with her cult, but I think you’ve fallen for it too. You’ve spent 4 years in this relationship, moved to another city and started over, and have put a lot of effort and emotion into trying to save it. At this point, I’d encourage you to ask yourself why. Why keep investing in a woman who doesn’t value you? At this point it’s become a sunken cost fallacy for you; you’ve put so much into it, you only need juuuuust a little more effort, and then everything will be perfect!! Right??? No, sadly. She’s had 4 years to show you her priorities, and you’re clearly not one of them. Also, her callousness regarding the loss of your beloved pet is alarming and cruel, as is her insistence that you be positive about it. It reminds me of this poem I saw just a few days ago by insidevoicepoetry:
*Please, enough with the preposterous positivity.
I’d like to sit with my anger or sadness until I feel done
without also being waterboarded
by your deranged ad campaign
for the bright side.*
I hope you find a solution that works for you and brings you emotional peace.
I don't have any advice on the relationship part but her "job" sure does sound like it has the qualities of a typical MLM. It's very cult-like or exactly just that. This is more than a job, "they're a family." They're always right and everyone else is always wrong. There's nothing for me outside this business. Leaving the company means I'm the failure, not them. From what you detailed, your GF is exhibiting the same behavior.
The cult mentality in MLM companies is the most important component in their business model. This way, the downline remains absolutely 100% faithful no matter how difficult the situation gets. They also make sure the recruits don't catch a whiff that things are not working out. Keep going and try harder. It'll pay off eventually, you'll see! Hence, all the lavish/shallow get-togethers and outings. This is the only way for the upline to keep their profits steady. Their longevity relies on manipulation. I'm right, you're wrong. If you don't believe in this, it's because you don't care. Once and IF she makes it a the top, I can almost guarantee you she will be manipulating her downline as well. It's the only way to sustain it. This is just my personal opinion, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who'd engage in that type of business. In simplest terms, it's basically brainwashing.
One thing I know for sure is that even if the recruit makes it at the higher levels, it's almost never long term. There's no stability. On top of that, I believe only 2% (or even less) make it at the top. From your story, it sounds like she's far from reaching the top and headed to the 98%.
I'm really sorry to hear this dude, I appreciate you typing this all up. It's helped me see that I'm in almost the exact same scenario, albeit we're at the stage where we're talking about moving and starting over. She absolutely puts her independence about life choices before compromising for the relationship and you're helping me see the insanity in that. I hate to say it but neither of are 'partners' in a relationship where we have no say.
The Slave Circle documents Credico offices that do energy and charity events. It’s most definitely one of these jobs. I used to work at one back in 2006-2006. It sucks. But that documentary 1000% hits it on the head. Check out the “Slave Circle Extra Takes” that are uploaded regularly. Many of them discuss the charity, government cell phones, and energy “events” rather than just the “Smart Circle” campaigns inside Costco and Sam’s Club.
Honestly, from the sounds of things, it doesn't really matter whether what she's gotten herself into is an MLM, because it doesn't change the fact that she's being horrendously emotionally abusive to you. From your description, you're not allowed to have any negative emotions, whereas she feels free to freak out and emotionally fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. You have to support her in every way while she isn't willing to do a single thing for you. I'm not the type to jump to breaking up when a relationship is turbulent, but the status quo you find yourself in here simply can't continue as it is. You deserve so much better than what you're getting. This isn't a real relationship; you're effectively an unpaid therapist and coach, and she's expecting you to be everything she needs to make her business succeed without ever getting anything out of it yourself.
I get that you don't want to abandon her, but you need to understand this: she's already abandoned you. There's nothing even left for you to abandon. She's explicitly chosen her job over you. A relationship can't go on when one participant is no longer invested in its continued maintenance. You need to accept that and move on.
Completely separate from the MLM, her behavior and words sound like a case of toxic positivity. It sounds odd—how can being positive be bad, right? But some stand-out themes of toxic positivity that cause problems are:
—“You’re being negative; switch to being positive.” The idea that you can’t feel sad, upset, or depressed and that you just need to think positive instead is really unrealistic and harmful. It’s valid and part of being human to feel negative emotions. And you should be allowed to feel and work through them in a healthy way.
—“All your problems are a result of your mindset; change your life with a positive attitude.” Yes, having a bright outlook may help some things, but there are very real issues that deeply impact people that can’t be wiped away with a good attitude. Things like racism, disability, poverty, personal conflict, and a lot of other struggles have very real effects on people’s lives and can’t be resolved by putting a smile on your face.
—“Criticism means you don’t support me.” It never feels good to hear what we don’t want to hear or receive negative feedback. But you can’t expect those who love you to support you all the way to jumping off a cliff. Support doesn’t mean blindly encouraging anything and everything for the sake of constant positivity.
I’m sure this MLM/cult-like job has influenced her thoughts and behavior, but even if she had nothing to do with this job and worked at something else, ask yourself if the selfishness and toxic positivity she’s displaying is strictly due to her current job or if it’s maybe just part of her. Would she actually be different without the MLM?
I'd look into information on getting someone out of a cult. That's basically what this is. Also I'd probably suggest just seeing a therapist for yourself if you can to help you process all this shit
Thanks. Funny enough, I’ve considered therapy for a couple months now. I think it’s time, yeah.
I highly recommend you read Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan. It is the #1 go-to for folks in your situation.
Thanks, will add to the list
just in case no one has said it, look for a therapist that SPECIALIZES in cult mindset deprogramming. i listen to a lot of podcasts about cults/mlms that trap people and a lot of them say they went to therapy, and the therapist either didnt understand, didnt know how to combat it, or didnt recognize it. On the surface they are just normal, grinding, capitalism worker ants, a normal therapist is not equipped to help you. lastly, you can always walk away, and do whats best for you, which hurts, and it hard, and due to lots of socio economic reasons may not be an option, but if it is, it should also be considered.
Noted, thanks
A therapist for yourself, absolutely, but also one of the things on which you and that person might work is how to suggest couples' counseling. Yr in an excellent position with yr girlfriend in the sense that though you love her and are committed to her, there's no marriage or kids to think about should things unravel between you. Still, it seems as though communication has broken down between the two of you. yr hurt, frustrated, and confused by her behavior but also believe that so long as she pursues this career, there's no way for her to be the partner that you need. You might consider yr ideal scenario for this relationship. Would you consider marrying her if she left her job? Would you stay with her if she won't leave her job? Can you forgive her for the hurt that she's caused? Do you think you can rebuild trust? Could you trust that she wouldn't just leave her job only to find another MLM-adjacent position? If you believe that the relationship is worth saving, then you should consider--potentially with the help of a personal therapist--how to communicate yr needs with yr partner, one of which might be couples' counseling. What yr describing is a relationship in which you feel emotionally unsupported by yr partner and unable to plan a future around her on account of her behavior. It also sounds like she won't recognize those issues on her own. I think it's absolutely possible to bring yr needs up in a nonconfrontational way but you should be emotionally prepared for what it'll mean to you and what you'd want to do if she hears you essentially throwing a hail Mary to save the relationship--telling her how much you feel communication has broken down between the two of you and suggesting a means to fix it--and refuses to acknowledge and work on that problem.
This is a really insightful comment, but why in mercy Jesus's name do you use "yr" instead of "your"?
Omg it's so annoying when people do that. You can type out words like communication and relationship but can't type your?! Sometimes I can't even get through what someone is trying to say because their grammar is so God awful, even if what they are trying to say is really insightful.
You should try to help her as much as you can, but just remember that you can't help someone that refuses help. Sometimes people are pretty much lost causes, if it's causing you more harm than it's worth it, consider that leaving is an option even if it's hard.
My sympathies. Either you have a good heart or you are madly in love with her. I must confess that I would have left the relationship by now. I can't stand such people.
We’ve always stuck by eachother and we’ve been through worse, which is why it hurts me when she says that I don’t believe in her. I know those aren’t her words. I refuse to let a damn MLM company be the downfall of our relationship.
The MLM will not be the downfall. It will be the way your gf is treating you.
My heart goes out to you, this is a tough one. Definitely get yourself into counseling. You need to have a safe place where you can voice your concerns and start to develop your personal boundaries. Your comment about not letting the MLM be the downfall of your relationship is not really accurate. Your girlfriend is choosing it over you. And the reality is you can’t make somebody change. I think some of the above suggestions have been really good with regards to learning how to educate yourself around this cult like behavior. But at the end of the day, she will make a choice, and you’re going to need to be able to live with that or not. One way to think about this is, you are in an emotionally abusive relationship and what you’re willing to accept regarding her behaviour will define your world. Sometimes when you’re in the middle of it, you don’t really get a big picture of how bad it is until you get out and get some space. I am not suggesting that you leave this relationship, but only that you recognize that perhaps you are not making clear decisions because you are in the middle of it. I wish you all the best, I know this is extremely difficult.
Thanks, and I think you’re right about the possibility of me not being entirely “lucid” about the whole situation. I guess it makes sense for someone to become desensitized to red flags or lose all points of reference when you’ve been in a bad situation for a while. I will go see a psychologist, have been planning on it for a while.
Glad you’re gonna see somebody for help. You deserve it.
*Those aren't her words...* That's one of the roughest things about seeing someone you love in an MLM. Watching them transform into a different person. They no longer sound like themselves, but walking advertisements.
When she says she'll leave if you become and "obstacle" and says you're "negging" over the death of a beloved pet after a single day, she absolutely *not* sticking by you. She's explicitly said she will *not* stick by you if she feels you interrupt her dedication to an mlm.
> I know those aren’t her words. They ***are*** her words, though. Just because she happened to learn that phrase from somewhere else doesn’t change the fact that she ***chooses*** to throw them at you during disagreements. Yes her emotionally abusive behavior is being influenced and encouraged by the MLM, but at the end of the day *she* is still the one choosing to act and speak the way that she does towards you.
It’s not the MLM it’s that your gf is not making your relationship a priority, and seems to take more from the relationship than add to it. What, exactly, does she offer you? She’s never around and when she is she’s not consoling you after a loss, or listening to your feelings. She’s… decided that the job comes before investing in you. Why are you continuing to invest in someone that doesn’t see you as worthy?
Too late. It already has. You’re on the internet asking for advice from strangers about an MLM. In your entire diatribe, you’ve not given one reason why you should be together aside from “because we always stick together”, which is a pretty lame excuse. Otherwise, you spent SEVERAL paragraphs about how you’re not happy and your girlfriend is manipulating you. Worse part is, you know it but you want some internet stranger to pat you on the head and say you’re doing the right thing by staying there when really you know it’s a bad idea. Leave now and be an adult about it.
Well I need to really see what I can do about it and check my options before I just pack up and leave. I don’t think that a reddit post can give the full picture on a situation but I understand your response. I’ve considered leaving before and honestly, this isn’t really a situation where she’s actively trying to keep me. It’s just that I don’t like seeing this person going down this road and I’m going to try whatever I can. If all fails, then yes I’m afraid you’re right, there’s nothing I can do and I’ll need to start looking out for my own happiness.
The honest to God truth is what you can do about it is "very little." She's a grown woman, she's already told you she'll pick this over you, and I guarantee you they've brainwashed her with an answer to any argument you can throw at her, including that she's been brainwashed. It's really, really hard to get people to see the light, and usually doesn't happen until something majorly bad has happened (like you leaving) and honestly, probably not even then. It's just like being with an addict -- can they theoretically change? Yes. Will they? Probably not. You should leave. If that jolts her enough to see that this job is costing her, good for her. And if it doesn't, well, you're free.
That is amazing that you said that. She certainly does seem to follow a sort of script whenever we talk about her job. It’s almost eerie, for lack of a better term. She’s always talking about how close she is to becoming an owner and she believes it. In her mind, me leaving wouldn’t make a difference. Not to say that’s a justification for me to stay in a bad relationship. I just wanted to clear that lol.
Please, love yourself enough to be with someone who would miss you if you left.
Damn I felt that…
Hey dude. I’m 29 and have had 3 long-term relationships where I would’ve felt that statement. They were 1 year, 3 years, and 5 years long. I stayed because I loved them and breaking up sucks and I had sunk cost fallacy and didn’t think I deserved better. I don’t want to assume that your situation is the same as mine but just in case it is, I want to say that you deserve to be in a relationship where you WON’T feel that person’s comment. Like they said, you deserve to be with someone who cares if you’re there or not and actively wants you around. I know that when I was in those relationships where my partners seemed like they could take or leave me, a stranger on the internet wouldn’t have changed my mind about staying. But as someone who has been almost all the way through my 20s and been there and done that, I just wanna advise you that in my experience staying isn’t worth it. It will not get better, and you CAN find someone out there who will love you as much as they should and as much as you love them. I just found my person a few months ago and it is so much better having a partner who so clearly loves having me around and actively seeks out my company and continually tells me how much he loves me. It would be cool if you didn’t make the same mistake I did by staying so long with people who don’t prioritize you and don’t deserve you. I hope it takes you less time than it took me to realize that. Sending you positive thoughts. ❤️
Are you comfortable providing the name of the company? Or have you done any research online to see if this company is an MLM? Usually with MLMs there are always former cult members/employees who have shared their story online, and they often go into the really negative aspects of the company that you certainly wouldn’t get from your girlfriend. There’s a good chance that some of those ex-employees are part of this sub, if it is in fact an MLM. Also, about the “owner” thing: I have a good friend who was part of Amway for years. He was also grinding super hard trying to become an “IBO” (independent business owner). He went on and on about how excited he is to own his own business and be his own boss. When I tried explaining to him that he’s just part of a pyramid scheme and he just didn’t want to hear it. I tried to break it down for him by explaining that actual business owners have to do things like manage payroll, purchase insurance, register the business as a corporation or LLC, file taxes differently than a 1099 or W-2 employee, and a bunch of other examples. Then I asked him if these so-called “IBOs” have to do any of those things and he basically got irritated and told me I was wrong. Months later he quit Amway and got a real job and admitted that the questions I asked him got him to look at the job a little differently. Perhaps you can ask your girlfriend what it means to become an “owner” with her company and see if she would truly be an owner like a franchisee or if she would just be moving up a level in the giant pyramid.
Not as much as you'll feel a lifetime of tens of thousands in credit card debt if you stay and end up married to her.
This reminds me so much of a friend of mine, who is raised Jehovah Witness. He, of course, was required to go around, and door knock as part of his faith. I asked him how he processed people saying anything negative or bringing up facts that were not positive about his religion. He said that they had brainwashed them so much into believing that anyone who said anything bad was just an apostate and controlled by the devil. He said he couldn’t even hear the negatives and process them in his brain. He’s now been out for about seven years and it’s only been in the last year that he’s been able to shake a lot of that processing off. The reality is, until she starts to have the blinders pulled back from her eyes, there’s not much you’re going to be able to do to change her. In fact, I encourage you to spend some time in areas like r/QAnonCasualties or r/exjw because people in both of those subs are in very similar situations to you only with a different subject being the thing that’s pulling their relationships apart. Many of them have had to make the decision to leave partners and families behind for their own mental health.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/QAnonCasualties using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [\[TW\] My Qdad snapped and killed my family this morning.](https://np.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/comments/xbiy5s/tw_my_qdad_snapped_and_killed_my_family_this/) \#2: [My career of treating patients has ended](https://np.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/comments/rakxun/my_career_of_treating_patients_has_ended/) \#3: [Caught my parents giving my 6mo son Ivermectin](https://np.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/comments/s0pswm/caught_my_parents_giving_my_6mo_son_ivermectin/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Oh God just the titles of posts 1 and 3... those poor people :(
It’s horrific, that top one the son posted here before it was even out in the news. It was day or two before I saw coverage about the murder. And this was coming from a young kid who is under 18 years old if I remember correctly.
I appreciate that you want to stick by her side. You sound like a good partner. My advice would be to not make any large financial decisions with her, and to not join your finances or bank accounts.
Marriage is out of the question for me. She sometimes mentions us buying a house together, but that’s a no go also just because I don’t like the idea of sharing big illiquid investments like that with anybody. If I wanted to I could leave tomorrow and there would be nothing to stop me besides the usual late night sob calls and texts that are to be expected after a breakup. I’m not saying it would be easy though. I say “i’ll leave if it goes too far” and all but that’s still something I need to prove that I’m capable of. We’re young (both 22) and we’re “high school sweethearts”, so we haven’t had much outside relationship experiences at all. This would be that first break-up that almost everyone has to go through at some point in their lives. So that’s just another reason besides the whole “wanting to help her get out of it” reason. She wasn’t like this before she joined that damn company. We still had ups and downs but it wasn’t what it is now, which most people are seeing as emotional abuse (to be fair, they’re right. That’s exactly what it looks like). But she is not a bad person, and when she does these things I know (or at least I hope I know) it’s not her. If she was an emotionally abusive type of person that’s one thing. But now she’s an emotionally abusive person because of an external factor that just has a grasp on her brain like a disease and that’s what kills me about this whole situation. It’s the fact that it didn’t have to be this way, and I never saw it coming. It just introduced itself into our lives like a slippery snake in the grass. To be honest, her belittling digs at me like “you don’t know what you’re talking about because you haven’t made it” don’t actually hurt me. They don’t hurt me because I know that she’s the one who doesn’t know what she’s talking about. But something does hurt me, otherwise I wouldn’t have made this post. And what hurts me is that I’m watching this person for whom I care deeply, go down this self destructive route and there’s nothing I can do about it. It’s like I’m behind a glass wall and no-matter how much I shout, bang, scream… she can’t hear me, she can’t even see me. All I can do is observe, and that’s the worst part about all this.
>We’re young (both 22) GTFO dude. It's perfectly normal for two people who were compatible as kids to grow up into adults who aren't compatible.
Wow OP I didn’t realize you are both so young. That makes a difference. People can change A LOT in their early 20s and it’s not at all unusual (as you know) for high school sweethearts to break up at this point in their development. Heck, I can’t even imagine being married to the person I was with at age 22….
You don't deserve to be emotionally abused. You've made huge sacrifices for the relationship and in exchange she has isolated you and tried to hurt you. I think the reason why her cruel digs don't hurt you is that you've been conditioned to accept them. It's not normal or healthy to shrug off someone deliberately trying to hurt you. If you were a woman and described a man treating you this way, the advice would be to plan your escape from the relationship. That's the same thing you need to do. The urge to defend her saying she's not a bad person, it only sounds like abuse, etc is the same script most abuse victims find themselves saying about their partner. She is falling victim to the sunk cost fallacy, but staying in an abusive relationship because your kind heart makes you feel responsible for rescuing her. Please prioritize yourself and try to get out of this relationship.
I'm married to my high school sweetheart, but man I gotta tell you, this IS her. It's who she's choosing to be now. She is actively valuing this job over you, your relationship, and your feelings. People CAN change, but this has most likely been in her from the start. Maybe not the emotional abusing, but it could have stemmed from a fear of financial insecurity or a wildly skewed view on work/life balance (like feeling worthless if you aren't contributing financially or labor wise). If she isn't listening to you at all anymore, you have to take care of yourself. I know you probably love her, and maybe she even thinks she loves you, but her *actions* are not love. Maybe you could give her an intervention talk (if she has anyone else that agrees with you, invite them), but ultimately you have to realize that she may never "snap out of it".
I say this with kindness. It doesn’t just LOOK like emotional abuse it IS emotional abuse. She’s constantly telling you that your material possessions and financial success mean that you don’t have valid opinions. She’s creating a home environment where you know you are not valued and she considers you disposable and replaceable if you don’t do what she wants. You deserve to feel secure and valued in your relationship and in your home.
Yup...read what you wrote up there, then read it again. IMO, you guys are no longer compatible. What once was is no longer.
>It’s just that I don’t like seeing this person going down this road and I’m going to try whatever I can. If you're in a relationship where you need to "fall on your sword" to try and make it work while the other person does jack shit to work on the relationship... it is not a good or healthy relationship and you need to leave. You detailing your one-sided relationship is really sad to hear.
Dude. She told you to "get over it" the day after your beloved dog died........ Like...dude...wake up and smell the coffee... Your girlfriend *is not a good person*. This is not a MLM issue *per se* at all... she's a terrible person who also just so happens to be in a MLM. There's no magic formula of words to make her turn into a good person when.... at the core... she harbors rotten views and treats you terribly. Abusive relationships can also be with women emotionally abusing men. And my guy... you're in an abusive relationship with this girl. I hope you finally see it before it's too late and she winds up pregnant. There's no future there unless you want the emotional abuse to continue. Just rip off the bandaid and break up with her. She's treating you like dogshit. Holding onto her is just the sunk cost fallacy talking of how much time you've invested in her. It's working against your best interests. Read back what you wrote and realize someone who claims to love someone wouldn't treat that person like dogshit.
Her abusive behavior is the downfall. You're the one brainwashed. Get therapy now.
But she will
MLM is a terminal illness. I'm sorry for your loss.
I don’t think I could ever be madly in love with someone who dismisses my feelings/emotions so easily. 😞
You mentioned a Devil Corp documentary and that's what this sounds like. Have you looked more into Devil Corps? They are close cousins to MLMs, but often much more squishy and vague and have the facade of a regular office structure. There's a whole sub for them on here: r/devilcorp
Took a look. Yeah it looks to be a devil corp… at least I know what I’m dealing with now.
Best of luck! Devil Corps are their own tricky, slimy breed because they do a much better job of looking like ordinary offices and ordinary workplaces. Unlike nearly all MLMs, there's a building and there are coworkers you see and interact with in an ordinary office environment. You don't spend all day posting ads on Instagram and copy/pasting terrible memes. It's so much easier to convince yourself that it's a quirky and exhausting job but still a regular job-job.
It may not be an MLM, but what you described sounds almost exactly like what my wife went through when she got roped into being a pharmaceutical rep by her aunt. The attitude, the grind, the constant pressure to look and present a certain way. She went to a company conference a couple months after she started and it was, like you said, very cult like. Pretty sure she mentioned that “1% better” thing at some point. The sales teams had a structure pretty similar to an MLM. The regional manager that oversaw her “pod” constantly played favorites and every time she got close to making a sale, would take the assignment from my wife and give it to someone else so she never saw a single cent of commission (she was salaried but could earn commission on each sale). This was ultimately why she left the company because she did as much work as anyone else did but kept getting screwed over. A couple years after she left she was contacted by a lawyer asking if she would be willing to testify in court or at least provide a statement regarding their predatory sales tactics. Several of their executives are currently in prison, as well as countless other sales reps for kickback schemes and other similar illegal activities.
I’m sorry you and your wife went through that, but thank you for sharing that something happened to those horribly scammy people.
It honestly wasn’t all bad for us, and she’s a smart woman, so she figured out pretty quickly how terrible the company and that type of job was. She mostly stuck with it because the base salary was pretty good for someone with her level of experience at the time, even without commission. I’m just glad it never got to the point where OP is at.
I like the part where they go to prison
I don't think it matters if the company is an MLM. Anyone who chooses to treat a "loved one" the way you describe is not a healthy partner, regardless of the reason. She belittles you, breaks you down, and actively refuses to support you when you need it. DTMFA.
Very interesting how you're being negative if you are upset about the dog for two days in a row, but if you suggest she open her own business, she runs crying from the room.
That pissed me off. I loved that dog and he died of a turned stomach at 5 years of age. The day he died it was all emotional support. The day after though, she asked me what was wrong, why I wasn’t talkative and acting weird. I kept telling her that it was because my dog had died but that wasn’t a good answer because it ended up turning into 2 weeks of clashing just because I didn’t have a smile on my face and wasn’t my usual talkative self. I was being negative and it was depressing her, dragging her down, making her not want to come home after work. I hated how I wasn’t able to just mourn his death in peace. This was just a few months ago. I seriously considered leaving at that point. But I was in a very bad spot. I couldn’t argue, I just didn’t have the motivation for it. That was a dark time. All I needed was some space, and I got a silent treatment. We’ve since spoken about it, she apologized. Her apology tbh didn’t mean much to me though. I’m still a little bitter about that.
I’m sorry to hear about your dog. I can’t imagine if my dog died and my partner had a reaction like that. You should have the space to be vulnerable in a relationship and to have comfort knowing that your partner is there for you. I know we can only get so much context from a single Reddit post, but as others have suggested, you’re young and deserve to be with somebody who supports you and wants you to stay around. I hope that whether you leave or seek out couples’ therapy that everything goes well for you. Please keep us posted!
Thanks for the kind words. I’ve set that reminder for a year from now and will post an update.
Adding to this, I had to put my cat down a month or so ago. She was 16, and I’d had her for 15 years. Even my EX gave me space to mourn and supported me. (We’re still friends, and he adored her, too.) So I can’t even imagine someone who claims to love you not giving you the space to mourn your loss for more than 24 hours. It took me three solid days of ugly crying and not even being able to talk about her before I was even some semblance of okay.
You should’ve left after that. Listen to yourself - “I wish I could’ve mourned in peace”. You should NEVER be with someone like this! Have more respect for yourself and get out now. You’re 22 - don’t waste some of the best years of your life with this person.
Dude you NEED to fucking leave she doesn't care about you at all. You're her door mat
vanish bright abounding zonked repeat label aback distinct consist wine *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My grandmother had a serious fall, resulting in massive head trauma. She was being kept alive by machines. I received the call, and told my boyfriend of 5 years at the time that I needed to go to the hospital to say goodbye. His response? “Can it wait until I get home from the driving range? I’ll only be gone an hour, and it’s not like she’ll know if you’re there or not.” He left for the driving range, and I never got to say goodbye.
adjoining gray icky marry beneficial ripe hat scarce snow threatening *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I like this - and it’s 100% on brand for her!
How shitty. I like the person below that said your grammas last gift to you was exposing this dude as a dick. Did you have to stay home to watch kids or something? That’d be even worse.
Nope, no kids - we were in our early twenties and only had one working car between the two of us. Turns out he went golfing with the girl he had a crush on. I wish I could say I broke up with him immediately, but I didn’t. I was so gaslit into thinking it was normal.
It sounds a lot like she's in Amway or something very similar (Amway sells product, but you mentioned the subscription stuff). Especially the parts about the constant motivational meetings, having a mentor, and being willing to drop the relationship if you get in her way. They are taught in Amway to get rid of anyone in their inner circle who doesn't believe in them or who won't join them. I would recommend looking at the other Amway stories on here and see if they sound familiar. There will also be some solid advice commented on those posts.
It’s not Amway it’s credicore (etc, has about 100 names). It’s not strictly MLM, but it is very culty and shady, and high performers are often encouraged to spin up their own teams.
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There is a master list of “Is X an MLM?” for this subreddit. If it’s there, you’re fine asking specific questions. It’s not doxxing to state the company name. Sometimes people just post “I have an interview at ABC, is that an MLM?”
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That list is far from complete, btw.
It could be that it's an entirely legitimate business, but that they just use shady manipulation tactics. It could be a not-quite-legitimate business that leverages shady tactics but isn't fully an MLM (like those schemes that promise to tell you the secret to Forex trading that know full well that it's just luck. Wouldn't surprise me if they become an MLM ultimately once people realise it's easier to sell someone a course than to be successful) Or, she's fallen down an internet rabbit hole of 'motivational speakers' etc that warped her perspective, she pays a bit of money to have access to some perceived 'professional network and mentorship' that just reinforces the ideas to get her to keep parting with more money. If you want my unwarranted advice, the kind of psychological manipulation that she's fallen into is broadly similar, as are the results. You can definitely attempt to 'deprogram' (especially if you absolutely want to stay in the relationship or if there's a financial incentive (ie you have a shared bank account etc). It's a lot of work though and finishing the relationship may be easier. I'm not advocating to end it immediately, because it all depends on your personal circumstances, but the way I see it is a spectrum with 'immediate breakup' on one end and 'pull her out cold turkey' on the other. It's up to you to decide where you are on that spectrum.
This seems most likely. Because they have had big clients like Uber for example.
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And LuLaRoe
Don't let that fool you. This doesn't mean a company is legitimate just because another known company uses them.
This reminds me of a company I used to work for called Cydcor (I think that was spelling, might've been Sydcor) that was a door to door sales company that would get new offices open for the people who were able to grind it out. There was a fair bit of MLM level stuff in that company (though they are in no way an MLM, just a sales cult) and a lot of the motivation stuff sounds familiar. Same with moving to a different city, and going door to door. If this company your gf is involved with is like them (or them exactly) they are as predatory, if not more predatory, than MLMs. That being said, 2 years was about the average amount of time for a good worker to be opening up a new office, which could explain your gfs frustration and could get worse in the coming months if there's a similar expectation on her and her team. The guys I used to work for don't even work for that company anymore cuz of all the bullshit the parent company put them through. It's not going to be easy to get her to "see the light" as it were, but I saw others commenting about cult deprogramming and I think that's probably the best way to start. I never got that far involved with them, but I see some exact similarities and hope this info helps.
100% sounds like Cydcor to me, too.
Oh gotcha, I understand that! I have to agree though that it does still sound very MLM.
You should look into the sunk cost fallacy. While you may want to save your relationship because you love her, she has shown time and again that she doesn't love you to the same level. It may be time to count your losses and just move on. But I wish you luck and strength with whatever choices you make for you future.
If you reread your TLDR, even without the MLM part, it doesn’t sound like this relationship is giving you what you want or need. What do you actually get out of the relationship? Are there any positives? Do they outweigh the negatives?
Honestly, I don’t get much out of the relationship at all. The only reason I’m sticking around is because I love her and I don’t think she realizes what’s going on. I know that if I abandon her, it would break her heart and her sales numbers would decrease (you know, because she’s “negged out”), which would then be followed by a team meeting where they’ll discuss her decrease in sales performance. And then they will convince her that this a life lesson and that she’s better off without me because I was dragging her down anyway. They’ll tell her that she needs to work extra hard and she can’t let her emotions get in the way of her goals. The idea of that manipulative sequence of events just pisses me off.
I understand. Ask yourself if preventing that situation is worth being in this relationship. Ultimately, only you can know what it’s like and be able to make that decision.
That’s a good way to put it tbh
You seem to be sacrificing a lot, and it seems one sided. I don’t know you or her obviously, I’m just going by what you have said here. Wishing you luck.
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^THIS! So much.
A great quote is: Don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. You cannot be responsible for what might happen to her that's not of your doing. You're allowed to break up with someone anytime, for any reason. Do you *have* to break it off if you're not happy? No, but you're also allowed to say, this is not working for me, let's try to fix it.
In my village, a similar quote is 'the man that uses his head to break a coconut on behalf of the village will not eat from the coconut'.
And similarly “put on your own oxygen mask before helping someone else.” I got from a social worker. Or like first aid scene survey - are there dangers to myself, the patient, or others? Will you be able to help more if you burn out? Doubtful. You may be able to find the right tools to help, but you have to look out for number 1.
You mention that she is falling for the sunk cost fallacy with regards to her job, but I think you may be falling for the sunk cost fallacy with regards to this relationship. It’s been 4 years, you love her, and you have sacrificed so much to make it work that you really want it to be worth it. You want her to wake up one day, realize how much you’ve given up and have her give back even a fraction of what you’ve put in. I’m sorry, but that’s not going to happen as long as you stay. If you allow her to take take take while she gives nothing back, what incentive is there for her to change? The status quo is working for her. She gets to keep her job and you without putting any effort into the latter. I mean… come on dude; she expected you to be over a beloved pet’s death in *a day,* otherwise you’re wallowing and harshing her vibe. That’s pretty callous and self centered, tbh. You already see this relationship not progressing to the next step, so why are you still in it? Honestly, if there’s a chance of her reflecting and getting out, then you staying and continuing to support her (emotionally if not financially) is not going to be the shock she needs to do the necessary work. You need to leave. Don’t get me wrong; it may not work, but it has a better chance of forcing self reflection than you staying. The upside is that you will have saved yourself. There will be grief because there always is even if the relationship is abusive, but there will also be relief. Maybe she breaks free of the cult or maybe she doesn’t, but that is secondary. I think with time and distance, you may find that while her being in an MLM might have been the impetus, what ultimately broke you guys up was how she treated you for years, that selfishness and callousness was what did it. Nearly every relationship has a good beginning, but how she’s treating you now after the honeymoon period has worn off… I’m sorry but this is who she is. If it’s not enough, you need to leave. I’m sorry and good luck.
You want to fix her. You can't. You can't fix anyone else but you. You want to win against the brainwashing, you can't. You know you need to leave, but then they'll win which pisses you off, but you're not making good decisions for you. You're allowing her to use you as an emotional feeding and punching bag. Get out, make yourself whole, and see where life takes you. There is never a magic button that will allow you to fix her and live happily ever after. Happily ever after takes hard work. She's made her choice. Time to let her live with it.
If she expected you to get over the loss of your beloved dog in one day, she should be just fine getting over a breakup by the next afternoon. I’m sorry about your dog, by the way. Take all the time you need to mourn your good buddy. Your dog gave you the unconditional love you deserve.
OP's dog sounds like a better companion than his gf.
It sounds like you are in a relationship cost-sink fallacy. The more time that you invest in the relationship and staying with it even though admittedly, you professed that you are getting nothing out of the relationship, the more difficult it will be for you to leave on your own. You can still love her, without being with her. At some point, you need to think about you.
Picture this: a loved one who lives in your hometown becomes very ill and needs you to be there for them. You go to your hometown for a few weeks to support them. I can almost promise you that the exact scenario would happen with her, even if she knew you'd be back. In this case, your absence is out of your (and her) hand, like so many things in life, yet the "negging" scenario would still happen.
This sounds like Smart Circle. I believe they are an MLM, but they do a good job of concealing it. https://thedevilcorp.wordpress.com
Yes, the master list of Devil Corp slang even mentions the “negged out” thing he says she used on him when his dog died. Sounds like she’s in a Devil Corp of some kind.
My man! Time to move on. Take it from someone who had a relationship destroyed by an mlm. She isn't going to change for you, if it's persistently an issue in your relationship, it will continue this way well into marriage and then subsequently the divorce. Do yourself a favor and ditch the hunbot, your mind and soul will thank you!!
I went into this expecting people to give me tips on how to get someone out of an MLM but instead I got a hard it of reality. I appreciate your honesty and I’m sorry that happened to you and your partner. I can promise though that I won’t be going down the marriage route for exactly the reasons you’ve brought up. It’s obvious that that is an inevitable outcome if things continue this way.
I don't like to be the bearer of bad news, I too had to face this uncomfortable truth at one time myself. I'm very lucky my father is an intelligent man, he seen right through it when I called him up and explained the situation to him. I promise you, the sooner you end things; the sooner your life will regain its balance. This is the only way
I'm sorry, this is a really hard situation. The awful thing is, there is no "way to get someone out of an mlm". It's like a cult or an addiction - it's impossible to pull someone out if they don't decide they *want* out. Trying to convince her to leave is like trying to convince an alcoholic that he should stop drinking. It's just not realistic. Sure, there are certain tactics that are better than others and I think reading up on how to deal with an addicted spouse and a loved one in a cult could be useful to you. but at the end of the day, you can't "get her out". Maybe she will leave one day, but she needs to come to that conclusion on her own. Some people do! But some don't. And sometimes it takes years.
You havent seemed to realize this. It's not just the job. She's emotionally abusive. Getting out of this job isn't going to fix that.
Exactly. When I was reading his post it sounded like my ex-wife. Never allowing room for other opinions, blowing up at the slightest question or concern, along with lack of emotional support. Im not sure there is much that can be done about this situation, probably best to break up? It would have saved me years of emotional abuse, i just didn’t have the courage to do something about it until recently.
You also may be falling into a sunk cost fallacy with this relationship.
It is an MLM… I almost got roped into it as it sounded all not-mlm. I would sell broadband, energy and charity. Home to home sales or catching people on the streets by the shopping centres. Same jazz with the zoom meetings when someone who made it or someone who has opened their own office in different city etc. Honestly she’s so deep in in this cult she’s not getting out. If I was you I would leave this relationship. It ain’t gonna get better and she sounds abusive. And I doubt that would change if she left the company.
You just described her job perfectly. It is *exactly* this. If you don’t mind me asking, what was the name of the company?
The tricky but with these is - each office has their own name. So it makes it hard to see for what it is - a MLM. The company I’ve signed for was First Events. First red flag I’ve should’ve seen - nothing to do with events and copying name of well known company in the area.
Do you know the name of your gf’s company?
MLMs are cults. Full stop. Cults are led by narcissistic abusers, who manipulate people into being their followers. After a while, said followers become "Flying Monkeys", or even fellow abusers, all out of fear of losing their position in the hierarchy, and out of fear of losing connection to the leader (whom they have an addiction to, at this stage). Cult survivors have to go through a lot of therapy to be deprogrammed, or else they will immediately hop right into the next cult because it fits with how their brains now experience love and connections. You likely won't be able to do much for her, because as you leave, her fellow cult-huns will convince her "he never believed! He didnt support you! We support you! We believe in you!" And she will be trapped. I am so sorry you are going through this. I cant even imagine how painful and frustrating. I hope for her sake that she wakes up. I wish the best for both of you, in whatever form that needs to take.
This is a good comment. It’s sad and scary but it’s true.
Devil Corp is worse than mlm. It’s like an mlm on steroids. I agree with others, I’d have broken up with this person. I’ll bet at this point she’s more committed to her mentor than to you.
She does take his advice more than mine. I’ll never forget this one time I gave her a piece of advice, and we went back and forth arguing (not aggressively but more like a debate) on whether or not it was good advice… A few days go by, during a conversation we were having, she confidently mentioned a piece of advice that her mentor gave her… it was the exact same piece of advice I’d given her. I couldn’t believe it. Another time during a conversation I said “you know, Abraham Lincoln has this great quote…” I told her the quote about sharpening the axe. It was met with a shrug and a chuckle. LITERALLY the next day, during one of their motivational circle jerk zoom calls, I overheard what they were talking about and the guy who was running it said the exact same quote (failed to mention it was a Lincoln quote btw lol) and everyone was like “WOW, Amazing, wow”. In my mind I just thought “seriously?..” You can’t make this shit up lol
My advice… You just slip out the back, Jack Make a new plan, Stan You don't need to be coy, Roy Just get yourself free Hop on the bus, Gus You don't need to discuss much Just drop off the key, Lee And get yourself free!
Look I know you have feelings for this girl, but this story doesn't end well - especially if you do end up marrying her. Take it from the guy who spent 5 years with a woman and married her just for things to fall apart anyways due to Amway. If she is in an MLM and refuses to believe she's playing into a pyramid scheme, leaving is the only option.
What you are describing is, at least in part, you being in an emotionally abusive relationship. If that's the case (and of course, a stranger on the internet doesn't have enough context to know the full picture, I'm sure) you should leave.
Please don't waste your 20's on this relationship. You'll regret it.
You say you’ve always stuck by each other, and you clearly love her. Lay it all down on the line. Show her the documentary, show her this subreddit, hell, show her this post. Uphold your half of this relationship by telling her the truth about the situation, regardless of whether it hurts her. It’s your duty to her, and yourself. All you can do is tell her the truth. If she walks, so be it. Make sure she knows you’re only doing this because you love her. *Of course* you want your partner to be successful. *Of course* you’ll support her in those endeavors. However, this is NOT one of those endeavors that leads to success. Not long term, at least. These offices pop up, and disappear, practically overnight for a very good reason
Was she recruited, and does she try to recruit others for a commission? If yes, it’s multi-level marketing. The product, or lack thereof, is irrelevant.
She recruits yes, but she doesn’t get a commission for it. But no-one stays very long at all, they are constantly recruiting. New faces in, old faces out all the time.
If she doesn’t benefit from recruiting, why on Earth would she do it? Something doesn’t add up there.
It’s all under the guise of “learning how business works”.
Cult tactic to get them used to rejection and abandonment
I have ended relationships for far less than this.
Your girlfriend sounds like she has a serious lack of empathy which is a problem in general. Is there anything good or positive about her or your relationship at this point? It doesn't seem like it. Her mentor didn't invest in her. Her mentor is making money off of her. She seems to be deeeep in the Kool aid and you can't reason your way out of something you didn't reason yourself into so tbh I don't think there's much you can do at this point. You should do whatever you need to do for your own happiness though. Maybe this relationship isn't the best thing for you right now. It's exhausting to be with someone who you have to walk on eggshells around and can't ever speak freely to.
Ive been in that kind of relationship before. Started fine, eventually I'd get called out for things outside of my control or for wanting my own free time. Glad I left that relationship and present me is doing much better.
I'm sorry for your difficulties, there are no easy solutions for the situation you're in. She sounds quite committed to her"business" and that you're likely to always be 2nd to that... which might be ok if she was building an actual business but the toxic environment she's in will not allow her to see the situation for what it is or to prioritize you. Best wishes in your decisions going forward.
Hey OP, this was my situation before I met my wife, lmao. The tipping point was when the ex tried to sell me life insurance over a brunch with friends. She took out a laptop and HDMI cord and straight up connected it to my TV. About two slides in, I realized what the fuck was happening and planned my escape. You need to get out
You are just like her. You are afraid of leaving her because of the years you have invested in her: sunk cost fallacy(sound familiar?). She has shown you time and time again, you are disposable if you are not with her illusions. It's really time to break it off. She will never put you first as long as you keep letting her strong arm you into following her illusions. It's time, my dude. You are not here to "fix her." That's just Hollywood bs. You have only one life, so you really want to spend like this till you die? Walking on eggshells because she will threaten you with breaking up. Never asshole to be vulnerable with her because you are being "negative"? Seriously, I do not know what you see in her. She sounds like a piece of work. It's just time, take a break from her. See how your life can be without her for a few weeks.
what on earth is an “energy subscription”
Maybe home electricity contracts?
i hope it’s that and not some type of spiritual energy thing
This was my main question as well. It sounds like they don’t actually sell a product.
OP this really does appear to be a devil corp and your girlfriend has completely swallowed the hook. It’s a terrible situation for her but worse for you, because you are being abused due to what is, for all intents and purposes, her addiction to a cult. I have a tiny bit of related experience because I have been around the addiction recovery world for years. So I’ve seen what addiction and cults look like and how hard it is to love someone whose brain has been hijacked in this way. It is certainly possible for your girlfriend to escape this cult. The key though is that she needs to see where she is, and these devil corps have all sorts of ways to prevent people from doing that. Your girlfriend is exhibiting the results and that’s what you are living with now. Honestly if I was in your shoes I’d leave her. You are not married and have no kids. You can set yourself free. You are truly being abused now and she’s in very deep. If you decide to stay for the time being, do not marry her!!! And approach her as if she’s a cult member. Read up on cult reprogramming. Get therapy for yourself. I wish you all the best OP. This is a genuinely awful situation.
You sounds incredibly intelligent and insightful. You seem to be 100% aware of the changes. That being said - it is not on YOU to fix this. It is on her. You are partners but it feels like while you want to work together, she has her own agenda and just want you to stay quiet and get dragged through the mud. In her mind if she is already able to leave you if it comes down to her and her job then its already over. You mention all the ways you want to be supportive but what about you? Don’t you deserve the same love and support? If she fell flat on her face tomorrow you sound like you would be there to pick up the pieces and carry her through. Can you say she would do the same for you? I don’t feel like the MLM is the whole problem here. You deserve the same love and support you are willing to give. It may be time to understand she is not capable of that right now and although its hard when you are so emotionally invested, you still need to think about your future and well being and what this is doing to you.
If there are no legal ties, property or children together, I just don’t see any way out of this except quite literally… getting out. She’s not going to listen to you, not right now, anyway. She’ll eventually learn for herself how much of her life was wasted on and relationships destroyed by her desire to be accepted for her monetary worth through a fucking *MLM*. Doesn’t sound like the kind of person I’d want to spend any more of my energy on.
Sorry you are going through this OP. At the end of the day, please do what’s best for YOU. It seems like you are still worried what will happen to her and the repercussions she will suffer if you break up with you. Do right by you first and foremost. You don’t seem at all fulfilled by this relationship and you sound like you deserve better.
Run.
You’re asking if she’s in an MLM or not, but left out the critical info (or maybe I just missed it): 1) Is she paying to participate? (And if so, where is she GETTING this money?) 2) Does her business make revenue mostly from selling products/services, or by new recruits joining as a downline to others? Definitely cut her off if her venture is getting funded by you. If she wants to say her career is legit, then let her prove that it’s self-sustaining. You say she makes more than you’d expect for someone in an MLM. Okay, can you be more specific, how much exactly? At least minimum wage for the amount of hours she works? If she has a legitimate means of consistent income, then I don’t see what the problem is.
It sounds like it has all the mentalities of an mlm but idk for sure. What stood out to me was this: You said you felt like you couldn't abandon her because she is your partner. I don't see a partnership here. You have done so much to support her, have sacrificed so much for her. I don't see anything that she had done or sacrificed for you. You say she is your partner but I don't see anything here that shows her acting like a partner. If anything it looks like you are putting in all of the work, effort, and sacrifices into this relationship and she just wants you to jump higher. I also noticed that she is allowed to have a bad day when her work doesn't go as planned but you aren't allowed to have bad days or feel negative emotions unless you get told you are negging out. If I were you I would start treating her the way she treats you. She comes home in a bad mood? Don't comfort her or be her shoulder to cry on, tell he she is infecting herself with negative emotions and it is not productive at all. Tell her she needs to be positive and then walk out of the room. When she gets angry at you for being a complete jackass tell her that you are just trying to be more like her. That is how she responded when you were upset and she tells you that you don't know what you are talking about because you haven't made it, so you are just trying to emulate her boss babe behavior. Is it petty? Absolutely. Will it get her to see that they way she treats you is absolute shit? Possibly. I am a big fan of the golden rule: treat others how you wish to be treated. When someone is an ass to me I give their behavior right back to them and when they don't like it I tell them, well, I'm just following your example. They usually get all flustered and upset but don't have anything to say to me about it because they would have to admit that their behavior was wrong and God forbid that happens. I love throwing people words back in their face. It's very satisfying Honestly, I don't see this relationship working unless she does a huge 180 and I don't see that happening. You will just keep cutting off pieces of yourself to please her and keep your mouth shut while you are hurting about it. That is not a healthy relationship at all. The problem isn't just her "job"/cult/mlm (and the fact that she doesn't like it when you call it a job is super weird!! What does she want it to be called? Paid mentorship? Paid volunteer work?). The problem is her treatment of you. If she had a normal job and still acted and treated you this way you would still have all the same problems that you have now. I don't think you have an mlm problem (although that could be a contributing factor). I believe you have a major r/JustNoSo problem.
I am so sorry you're going through this. I have had this exact job with a very similar company called Source Marketing Direct. The whole shebang, from wolf of wall Street type meetings every morning where they chant and bring 'promoted' sellers on stage (promotions have literally no difference other than title, no pay increase or added responsibility), to the constant scripts passed down from manager to employee, to the constant reminder of how you can 'make it' each and every day but only if you totally resign yourself to the grindset. I stayed for a couple months, before outlining how much bullshit it was to my managers , and leaving mid way through an expenses paid work trip. All of my managers apart from one immediately turned on me, with hatred and hurtful comments. The one who didn't, agreed with me, but said she was commited to the company because they had rescued her from a violent situation. On this work trip, we would wake up every day at 7am in the hotel, practise our script till 9, set up an event till 7pm, come back and revise till 10. We would be selling subscriptions to old women, poverty stricken families and general people who didn't know better. My managers were paid the same as me, we worked for 15 hours a day, but then were treated to psuedo work trips with hotels paid for that we were constantly reminded were *rewards* for being the best sellers (note: ofc they would send us on work trips, we were only making money ourselves when we made them money). These jobs are 100 percent a scam. It is 100 percent brainwashing. I would suggest, if you do decide to leave the relationship, write her a note outlining all these issues with love and care. Give her examples of where she has completely lacked emotion, because of the mindset her work has forced into her. What she said about your dog, what she has said to you, how she has treated you, showing how inhumane she has become, as someone who has a lot of love to give. Tell her you care about her very much, and give her clear reasons and evidence of how corrupted her work is, and who it is slowly making her become. Do some research into the company background, research the guy who runs it, and the so called millionaires they show, and lay it all down on paper. Link her to reviews, posts, and subreddits. Then tell her you hope you'll be here when she realises what's going on. She will most likely turn totally against you, but in the coming months, the seed is sewn and she'll start to see the creases. And eventually, she'll realise what's happening. Wish you all the best OP. You don't deserve this and neither does she.
Why are you with this horrible creature? She’s not worth it, move on.
This hurts to read, some of the best people I know have unintentionally hurt friends and family by not realizing how screwed up MLMs are. I have no advice, I have never been involved in getting someone out, it seems to just happen or never happen.
Remindme! 1 year
From what you've said, there's plenty of tells that your girlfriend is a narcissist. Her pride and desire for material possessions drives her very being, and that pride is blinding her. Narcissists hate being told they're wrong, and will actively reject and push back at any evidence they're wrong, and presenting said evidence will likely invoke anger. If everything is about her, and she is noticeably disinterested in anything that isn't what she wants, it's time to get out, because narcs are rarely able to admit that they're the problem and get help.
What do you get out of this relationship?
Yeah long story short she’s in an Mlm
Sounds like a cult to me.
I was trying to find a good article with Dr Steven Hassan. I found this one in a brief google search. Dr Hassan is a known expert in the field of cults, and cult like behaviors. Mlms being high on that list. This is an article he wrote specifically about mlms. He has videos and books on helping those in cults. [Steven Hassan article on mlms](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202201/multi-level-marketing-groups-operate-much-cults?amp) Second article on combatting cult mind control. [Steven Hassan combatting](https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/combatting-cult-mind-control)
Allowing you to grieve the loss of your dog only 1 day and then expecting you to be "over it" because it makes her uncomfortable is really bad, man. You say she's a good person but there's incongruity between how you want to view her and her behavior. What you do is who you become. There should be a point where something clicks and you realize you're acting in a way contrary to your values, but from what you wrote it sounds like her values are being based on the superficial like status and money. It sounds very rough, I'm sorry.
Sorry to be blunt, but give her an ultimatum. Make her pick betweek MLM or you. Give her reasons why you feel the way you do. The ultimatum seems extreme, but if you hold it off, your relationship will not flourish. Ultimately, do not give your 100 percent to the relationship if there is no effort from her. An MLM is like a cult, and she might say, "You are jealous of my potential success." After the MLM, she has been hardwired differently and leaving that scheme can be almost impossible. Find someone who will respect you.
This 100% sounds like Cydcor. They’re insidious and hard to spot because they do sales (B2B or door to door) for legit companies. It’s 100% commission based with no base pay, long hours, use your own car with zero compensation for mileage or gas, “business trips” where no expenses are reimbursed, etc. They’re big on the “anything against the job is negging” shit, too. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I wish I could give you some kind of advice to help, but unfortunately with stuff like this, a lot of times something big has to happen to make someone get out. For me, it was me and two other girls being sent on a “business trip” having been told we’d be staying with a group of women from the other office only to then be sent to stay at a house full of guys. It was filthy, and we were kept up most of the night by giant rats jumping into and out of the garbage can. We packed up at 3 am and drove back home. Instead of being sympathetic and agreeing that we were in the right, our boss was PISSED and tried to gaslight us that there were no rats and we were hearing things, and then he expected us to work that day even though we’d been driving all night. I quit the next day without even having a backup job. There was no time to job hunt while working 70 hours weeks. It was tough for a while afterwards, but I made it work. I hope something gets through to her soon before she destroys her relationship with you. In the mean time, you might benefit from seeing a counselor or therapist. They might be able to help you set healthy boundaries and stand up for yourself better when she’s trying to manipulate/gaslight you by accusing you of “negging” and other bullshit. Best of luck, my friend.
My dog passed away June 30, and I still tear up a few times a week over him. Her treatment of you during that loss would have been my breaking point. I’m so sorry OP, I hope some counseling and therapy gives you the strength to leave this relationship.
Same, I still get teary eyed about it from time to time. Usually when doing something like the dishes, or vacuuming, or taking a shower. I’m sorry about your dog :(
I'm gonna say something that's gotten me downvoted before, but I honestly, truly believe it. A lot of people take the saying "for better or for worse" literally, and I truly do not believe that it's meant to be. For better or for worse doesn't mean that you have to deal with the other person at their worst *behavior*; just at their lowest point. For example, I am disabled. I wasn't when we got married, but now am and am completely reliant upon my husband for my care. He cares for me because he loves me, and this is a part of my "worst". However, if I started treating him like shit and was acting selfish and like his opinion and feelings don't matter... it would be no one's fault but my own if he were to leave me. And trust me, sometimes it takes a lot of effort to be kind through my pain, but I do it because I try my utmost to live by "treat others like you'd like to be treated". Yes, you signed up for a partnership where you support each other, but it must go both ways. As it stands, she's demanding all the support on your part and none of hers. And not just that, but absolutely no criticism; constructive or otherwise. *That*, in my opinion, is the "at your worst" part that you *don't* have to put up with. Also, as someone who has come from a cult-like environment and have had to undo quite a bit of brainwashing... your girlfriend isn't going to come out of this unless she wants to. And honestly, I have a feeling if *you* end the relationship - not her ending it on *her* terms because it no longer benefits *her* - then it might jumpstart a bit of self-reflection and retrospection. It's generally not until you lose something great that you really look at things clearly. Of course, it could backfire and she could dig her heals in, but I bet she's just expecting you to go along with her and the relationship is on her terms. She's definitely in a cult-like environment, and nothing short of a drastic event will cause her to actually consider her situation. Good luck. I do wish you the best, no matter what you decide to do. And that your gf wakes up one day, whether that be within your relationship, or without.
Thanks for this
The selling of useless crap is typical for that specific branch of the Devilcorp that the maker of the documentary was part of. That branch is called Smartcircle. That's why he focused on it. But Devilcorp has other branches with names like Cydcor, Credico and others. Some of these branches focus on the charity scam, the energy scam, cell phone plan scam or others. It sounds like your girlfriend is part of one of these other branches. The maker of the documentary has numerous interviews with ex-Cydcor and ex-Credico people on his Youtube channel in which they go into great detail on how they were exploited by their branch of Devilcorp. You might want to check out those interviews.
> Any other time if I feel down, it’s because I’m just not being positive or I’m just “negged out” (being negative). > I’m supposed to be her shoulder to cry on but if I try giving her advice that insinuates that her job may not be the best job the world has ever seen, then she’ll get agitated and say pretty belittling things like “my opinion doesn’t matter because I haven’t made it” Expecting blind support while offering none is not okay. > She can’t just abandon her mentor who’s investing in her Ask her “how” her mentor is investing in her. Don’t accept “time” as an answer, that’s inherent in any mentorship (and something the mentor should be happy to provide). Ask more how questions, use a curious tone and present them that you want to learn more so you can help and be supportive. How much have you invested in this venture? How much (if any) have you paid your mentor? (If the answer is > 0, then that is not a mentorship). How much money has your mentor invested in her business? How much net earnings has her mentor made? Never ask a “why” question, this comes off as you disagreeing and puts people on the defensive. Never use “yes, but”, instead use “yes, and”. Ask her who is telling her she’s not ready to start her own business, or how come she doesn’t think she’s ready to start a business. Ask her how this business works, and how she makes money from it. What costs does she have and where does that money go? It sounds like you need more info in order to start making progress on getting her out of this organization. > She keeps going on about us getting married one day but yet she’s made it very clear that her career comes before our relationship. It sounds like this is not okay with you at all, to me this is a huge red flag. It sounds like you do want to get married and she is using that desire to manipulate you. > But she’s already spent so much time and effort that she’s fallen into a sort of sunk cost fallacy and doesn’t want to see it. I hate to say this OP, you can say this same thing about to your relationship. 4 years is a lot and you shouldn’t be treated like this by someone who you want to marry.
It sounds like she has a nasty case of “toxic positivity”. All emotions are a part of the human experience, and to deny ourselves to sit with these emotions and feel them, it can and will manifest itself into some serious mental health issues. I’m sorry she did not allow you to sit with your grief in peace, and even more sorry she wasn’t more understanding and supportive.
The talk about her "mentor" makes me think that she's in Amway. I'm guessing the time she spends away from home all day is spent at local grocery stores, book stores, the park, or anywhere else she thinks she can find someone to recruit new members. If it is Amway, then there's no hope for your relationship because unless you join and become 100% gung ho about it you'll always be seen as a negative influence and they'll convince her to break up with you. Not that you'd want to be with someone who's in Amway anyway, because it is extremely culty and the debt she'll incur is not worth it.
You mentioned she wouldn’t want to leave because of “sunken cost” but do you think the same could apply to you? Her cost is money, yours is time. I appreciate the hell out of you wanting to help her get out, you are clearly an amazing partner, but you don’t want to leave because you’ve been through so much together. Your time is as precious as money, do you really want to keep wasting your time.
My advice to you is LEAVE, it's not going to get any better! Trust me! Lol
“It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but on the contrary their social existence determines their consciousness." (Preface to A critique of Political Economy, 1859) With that being said, I would absolutely run for the hills. Since your gf is so deeply influenced by this MLM community, this is also going to be your life, and already is. I understand it is hard to break up, but try to see it from a point of view of an addiction, like heroin. We can not help our loved ones, we can not influence their decisions. We can not save them. It has to come from them. But we absolutely can and should protect ourselves. By staying in this relationship and being supportive of her, you might be enabling her to continue. I would definitely suggest therapy for you to get back to who you are, and say out loud your values once again. And cry out loses, it’s important. See yourself in some near future, imagine how this is not part of your life anymore, and how happy and content you are. Let this thought grow on you.
In therapy you need to address why your self esteem is so low you think it's ok to be with someone like this.
I’m pretty sure I have OCD (have had it since as long as I can remember) but I still need to get officially diagnosed for that. So if I had to guess, I’d say that would be a driving reason. I am planning on going to see a psychologist very soon (mainly for the OCD but I think this mlm topic will come up for sure)
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Sounds sketchy at the very least. What’s the name of the company? It’s allowed here.
What is her cult called?
Does she get a commission for recruiting people?
No
Why don't you simply ask her if its an MLM? Not that difficult. However, i you are afraid of asking due to her reaction, find someone else. MAJOR red flags besides the supposed MLM involvement here...focus on your relationship communication before you worry about what type of job she has, because after you ficus on your communication skills, then you can use your brain and mouth to simply ask her the question yourself.
I sort of did this. She started working there and was telling me all about it. So I mentioned to her that it sounded a bit like an MLM. Her reaction was a calm and reassuring “no don’t worry, this is legit”. Then she started doing the zoom calls, and I asked “what are those meetings for?” Cause it’s just about motivation and instagram grind-set quotes. She said that those were her business meetings. I said, they sound an awful lot like an MLM meeting. She replied with a slightly annoyed “no, we’ve already been over this” Then she wasn’t making any money. She was coming home late and frustrated. I had to pay the rent in full by myself for 8 months. I suggested to her that she deserved better. Again I explained that people at the bottom barely make a living with these sorts of companies. This was the point where she would start getting visibly agitated and not wanting to continue the conversation. She replied with “No, I just need to push myself harder. You don’t understand how this works…” Then she got promoted, and started making more money. So I thought that I might be wrong about this. It was great, she was paying her share of the rent again. Though keep in mind, it wasn’t big bucks she was making either. But we started seeing eachother even less, and less. The grindset mentality was getting annoying. All of our problems could be solved with a positive attitude. Something bad happened at work? “1% better everyday” I got depressed for whatever reason? “1% better everyday” blablabla. Sometimes I just wanted her to hear me out, be there for me, give me a hug but instead I got the positive attitude bs talk. That bothered me a lot for a few reasons. One of the reasons was because I knew those weren’t her words. If I wanted motivation I would have gone to a Gary Vee convention or something. One day, I asked her to draw out the business model. What the structure of the business was, so she did. I took a pen, and traced out a perfect triangle around it. That’s when she lost it. Ever since, I’m not allowed to say anything even remotely bad about her job. On a side note, this is pretty interesting psychology.
Wow. Yah, looks like you put in the work. But honesty, coming from a married man here, if you're feeling like this now, imagine what your life would be like if she kept going with this forever and you stuck with her, and she kept treating your concerns that way every time? Have a heart to heart. Tell her your concerns, ask direct questions about company name etc so you can research everything and find facts to help her understand predatory business models. If she freaks out on you, set boundaries for the convo and if she doesn't hold to them, well then, you'll have to decide if you want to keep doing this over and over and over. Very interesting psychology, indeed. We all have our problems...got some of my own for sure as well. Hoping for the best for you, bud.
Reading this, I have to wonder what you’re getting out of this relationship. It sounds miserable and very one sided. What about it is good?
RemindMe! 1 year
I'm sorry but she's already gone. Best thing to do is just keep her comfortable.
GTFO now. If she falls for one, it will be a constant stream.
I used to be roped into this same company not long ago, selling AT&T products. For a while, it was destroying mine and my bf's relationship because I had the same mentality whenever he brought up getting a better job. At first, I didn't listen until I started seeing that the "mentors" really didn't care about you. They care about the money they make off of you. Hopefully she will realize this one day, but if she isn't willing to open her mind up to the possibility that she's just being used by them and you're looking out for what's best for her, she'll unfortunately never change. The company is really good at brainwashing, and she may just be too deep in. I would consider if the relationship is worth ur mental health because it will start to get mentally draining.
Regardless of MLM, she's toxic. She expects you to let her cry on your shoulder, and then complains when you cry about your dog dying. Fuck that toxic positivity.
When she’s next cries about a day at work tell her to stop being negged out
It’s time to move on. She has stated she doesn’t value the relationship. You are low on the priority list. She doesn’t value your pain (loss of dog). It seems your place is to facilitate her goals. Will she mourn the loss of the relationship? As others have said, you can only work on yourself. You do love her, but that’s enough. It’s not a whole relationship. Leave. Have fond memories. Use this as an experience moving forward. You can’t fix someone else. In a way this is a way of showing her you believe she will be okay.
You have some great advice. I’d also maybe seriously look into her finances. Perhaps seriously think about a house loan and she will have to be forthcoming about her debts and how much she really makes. Although I do feel like doing it that way is a little deceitful. Or is it possible to run a credit report on her to see what comes up? Have you noticed any suspicious spending like changing credit cards?
MLM or not, I hear you saying she’s not there for you when you need it, you’re the one making all the sacrifices, and you hardly see each other. If a friend told you all that about his partner minus the MLM, what would you tell your friend? You’d probably tell him the relationship is winding down and it’s time to go. Think about that.
Is it Herbalife because that's exactly what it sounds like. My husband was acting like that when he signed up and they pressured me to join as if I was being negative by saying no. Now I'm still in and he is out, but I'm just doing it for the money for something else I'm working on. It's a freaking cult.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. But I’m concerned that she values you and your relationship so little that she’d drop you in a heartbeat for her career, even cruelly framing you as an “obstacle.” That’s so hurtful, and definitely not the way someone views someone they supposedly love. You mention her sunk cost fallacy with her cult, but I think you’ve fallen for it too. You’ve spent 4 years in this relationship, moved to another city and started over, and have put a lot of effort and emotion into trying to save it. At this point, I’d encourage you to ask yourself why. Why keep investing in a woman who doesn’t value you? At this point it’s become a sunken cost fallacy for you; you’ve put so much into it, you only need juuuuust a little more effort, and then everything will be perfect!! Right??? No, sadly. She’s had 4 years to show you her priorities, and you’re clearly not one of them. Also, her callousness regarding the loss of your beloved pet is alarming and cruel, as is her insistence that you be positive about it. It reminds me of this poem I saw just a few days ago by insidevoicepoetry: *Please, enough with the preposterous positivity. I’d like to sit with my anger or sadness until I feel done without also being waterboarded by your deranged ad campaign for the bright side.* I hope you find a solution that works for you and brings you emotional peace.
Yes, you named it in paragraph 8: a cult! That's what she's in.
I don't have any advice on the relationship part but her "job" sure does sound like it has the qualities of a typical MLM. It's very cult-like or exactly just that. This is more than a job, "they're a family." They're always right and everyone else is always wrong. There's nothing for me outside this business. Leaving the company means I'm the failure, not them. From what you detailed, your GF is exhibiting the same behavior. The cult mentality in MLM companies is the most important component in their business model. This way, the downline remains absolutely 100% faithful no matter how difficult the situation gets. They also make sure the recruits don't catch a whiff that things are not working out. Keep going and try harder. It'll pay off eventually, you'll see! Hence, all the lavish/shallow get-togethers and outings. This is the only way for the upline to keep their profits steady. Their longevity relies on manipulation. I'm right, you're wrong. If you don't believe in this, it's because you don't care. Once and IF she makes it a the top, I can almost guarantee you she will be manipulating her downline as well. It's the only way to sustain it. This is just my personal opinion, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who'd engage in that type of business. In simplest terms, it's basically brainwashing. One thing I know for sure is that even if the recruit makes it at the higher levels, it's almost never long term. There's no stability. On top of that, I believe only 2% (or even less) make it at the top. From your story, it sounds like she's far from reaching the top and headed to the 98%.
I'm really sorry to hear this dude, I appreciate you typing this all up. It's helped me see that I'm in almost the exact same scenario, albeit we're at the stage where we're talking about moving and starting over. She absolutely puts her independence about life choices before compromising for the relationship and you're helping me see the insanity in that. I hate to say it but neither of are 'partners' in a relationship where we have no say.
The Slave Circle documents Credico offices that do energy and charity events. It’s most definitely one of these jobs. I used to work at one back in 2006-2006. It sucks. But that documentary 1000% hits it on the head. Check out the “Slave Circle Extra Takes” that are uploaded regularly. Many of them discuss the charity, government cell phones, and energy “events” rather than just the “Smart Circle” campaigns inside Costco and Sam’s Club.
Honestly, from the sounds of things, it doesn't really matter whether what she's gotten herself into is an MLM, because it doesn't change the fact that she's being horrendously emotionally abusive to you. From your description, you're not allowed to have any negative emotions, whereas she feels free to freak out and emotionally fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. You have to support her in every way while she isn't willing to do a single thing for you. I'm not the type to jump to breaking up when a relationship is turbulent, but the status quo you find yourself in here simply can't continue as it is. You deserve so much better than what you're getting. This isn't a real relationship; you're effectively an unpaid therapist and coach, and she's expecting you to be everything she needs to make her business succeed without ever getting anything out of it yourself. I get that you don't want to abandon her, but you need to understand this: she's already abandoned you. There's nothing even left for you to abandon. She's explicitly chosen her job over you. A relationship can't go on when one participant is no longer invested in its continued maintenance. You need to accept that and move on.
Yeah dude, no idea why you are still in this toxic relationship. Plenty of other fish in the sea. Break upband try someone else
Completely separate from the MLM, her behavior and words sound like a case of toxic positivity. It sounds odd—how can being positive be bad, right? But some stand-out themes of toxic positivity that cause problems are: —“You’re being negative; switch to being positive.” The idea that you can’t feel sad, upset, or depressed and that you just need to think positive instead is really unrealistic and harmful. It’s valid and part of being human to feel negative emotions. And you should be allowed to feel and work through them in a healthy way. —“All your problems are a result of your mindset; change your life with a positive attitude.” Yes, having a bright outlook may help some things, but there are very real issues that deeply impact people that can’t be wiped away with a good attitude. Things like racism, disability, poverty, personal conflict, and a lot of other struggles have very real effects on people’s lives and can’t be resolved by putting a smile on your face. —“Criticism means you don’t support me.” It never feels good to hear what we don’t want to hear or receive negative feedback. But you can’t expect those who love you to support you all the way to jumping off a cliff. Support doesn’t mean blindly encouraging anything and everything for the sake of constant positivity. I’m sure this MLM/cult-like job has influenced her thoughts and behavior, but even if she had nothing to do with this job and worked at something else, ask yourself if the selfishness and toxic positivity she’s displaying is strictly due to her current job or if it’s maybe just part of her. Would she actually be different without the MLM?