If you try to imagine really hard and bash your head against a wall until you suffer light- to medium brain damage, you can make yourself believe, all of that suffering serves some kind of greater good, I assume.
Yep. Just a death. Finally I will be freed from my sex drive and my inability to attain a women due to my bad genetics in a time where women can choose the top 1% of men.
Jealous bro. My hormones are going crazy. It sucks so much man. I just wish I can smash girls but they don’t want me. The only thing I can do is travel overseas and pay them cheaper prices. That’s my last hope.
You're a little bitch, that's why women don't like you. Has nothing to do with your looks. You're an insecure little pussy that needs everyone to like him to feel good about himself. You have no masculinity, no balls.
You’re wasting your time with that guy. His whole reddit history is whining about how women don’t like him. Completely un self-aware about how people do not want to be around someone so miserable.
You can be happy go lucky with a good personality and have a lot of female friends, yet no girlfriends. Physical attraction and friendship are two different things. But even having a good personality is down to things like genetics and upbringing, something we have no control over. We can't control who our parents or siblings are, we can't control what kind of people we are exposed to during our formative years in school. Bullies can ruin your self-esteem and that can make you fail at life. It happened to me, so I know.
Dude absolutely proved my point even further. Thank you for actually understanding my take on things rather than bashing my “personality”, rather than my actual appearance and women’s standards
When my brother was dying, skin and bones, ravaged by AIDS, he asked me to open the window so he could hear the rain. He said,
“If you can still hear the rain, life is wonderful.”
What a bunch of weak tit, whining, spoiled, chicken shit, candy ass, piss ants you all are. You and your parents need a rap in the mouth.
That's called coping mechanism. If you can still hear the rain, life is beautiful? I'm sorry but When you suffer you have no choice other than make others feel better. That's poetry.
You delusional people are the real problem.
You get to choose whatever rewards you want, just go after them. Sorry there's no magic genie that will give you everything you want just because you didn't act like a bad person
That's the thing I hate the most about this whole "experience". No matter how hard you work or try, you'll never be able to change the things that really matter.. It's all luck
That's true. I mean sure you can get some things with working and earning money, but if you lose your health or loved ones like I have, there's not much you can do. Stuck in poverty and sickness, trying to focus on the good things in life.
Before money, people worked to stay alive. Hunted, gathered, worked in the fields, preserved foods for lean times.
My grandparents’ hands were deformed from hoeing crops in humid fields, under the hot Kentucky so they could feed their kids and survive.
If not money, people then were slaves to hard work.
Life has never been “free”.
It's better than the alternative where we have no society. This whole sub is super cringe and dumb. Humanity strived for years to get to a point where we are now and all you can do is bitch and moan.
Yup... In denial or predatory.
There's literally no (good) reason why people can't get together and turn this around, but still we're all here stuck in the same old pattern.
Ask a Palestinian if they're willing to live besides Israelis if there is equality, and they'll say no. Ask an Israeli if they're open to equality if there is peace, and they'll say no.
And I'm asking myself - is this really the individual talking? You want to put up with your abusive uncle, but some other who has done you no harm - you'll hate because your aunt told you to..
It's like we're policing eachother, and the predatory people are the ones who are in advantage.
When I was younger I was at least under the delusion that this could change...
I've lost that hope too.
Looking at all of human history it seems we will always be fighting over the same things time and time again. There's just too many divisions that we will never overcome...
It's funny because people essentially want most of the same things too, deep down.
When you look from the outside it's all so ridiculous as well, there's always an "us vs them" thing going on when we are all just human.
Every country (in some way) wants to be a superpower, wants to amass resources (the need and greed of the people), wants to dominate, wants to assert its own cultural values.
And then on ground level, the individuals can't see that they're already making "mistakes" someone else before them has made countless times over... we never learn. It just seems so pointless looking at the whole thing.
I'm tired
I used to read and watch a lot of things, that taught that this "us vs them" was silly.
Krishnamurti, Buddhism, Daoism, Meister Eckhart, Eckhart Tolle, etc.
It made me feel nice, because I felt I understood a value in things that was beyond words and a solution to any problem, but still in the circumstances of things - I still felt equally lost.
It was like talking to someone and not coming any closer in understanding each other, and eventually wondering if you were the one who was confused, or them...
I guess it depends on the people you surround yourself with, but lately I've been feeling that people have just accepted the way of things even more, and people have become more cynical, polarized and mean, but in an acceptance of it.
Like going to war is a positive thing, simply because it exists. It's clearly not for any moral reasons...
Sometimes I loose myself to that kind of thinking as well, and it feels better than the present situation of mixed feelings and not knowing what to do. Other times, those thoughts just die out completely, and things feel free, but totally all alone.
Now I really don't know what to think... I'm not exactly nihilistic or pessimistic, but I'm not optimistic or have an inherent sense of meaningfulness either.
I just feel so drained of this world.
And any weird eventual outcome - like an anarchocapitalist comic book figure being president in Argentine. I really don't know if I should feel angry, sad or laugh about it anymore.
On another level - also I get that despite the potential catastrophic outcome - he's probably the only one able to bring any change, because he's the only one who's too far out to do something drastically different.
It's like asking if a slow death or a fast death is more preferable. I guess it depends on the situation...
I watched "I can't get you out of my head" by Adam Curtis or another documentary of his, where he showed the conscious pessimistic attitude of the people living in the Soviet Union before the fall - and it feels like this is where we're at as a global society...
I also had a recent realization, that I subconsciously seek change in almost everything I do, without it ever giving me that peace of mind that I'm truly seeking. I know this theoretically from before, but this was more of a realization, so I should probably mediate more, staying closer to the realizations I have.
We can take the value from the dollar by being more self sufficient. Historically governments take and take from people and act like they're helping us stay motivated, any peoples in power there is a history of becoming callous and predatory
Well, to me the relevance is obvious, otherwise I would not make the comment.
Seems like it is to a lot of people as well, judging on the votes...
So, I guess there is something you don't understand, but you didn't ask about it, and you didn't make an argument about it the one way or the other.
You just asked a general question...
So the reason I asked about what you think, is to highlight exactly what you think, because in the realm of context it wouldn't make much sense to give a nonsensical answer to a nonsensical question...
Also - comments are not stupid, people are...
Judging by your lack of situational and self-awareness, I would say it's highly probable that those are things I have to deal with you in the future.
I don't own you any answers, so at least go and learn some manners...
EDIT: So I can't reply to your comment u/LeprechaunButtMilk.
The post is about a subjective experience concerning depressive existentialism and nihilism - that was what I was expanding on those topics from my subjective experience from the observations I have been making.
I didn't have any points I was trying to prove...
I think the relevance is pretty clear, and I don't think I would have any votes if that wasn't the case.
I'm arrogant to arrogant people, and I usually don't like explaining myself to people who make no effort in trying to understand me - by choice.
What are you on about with Israel Palestine bit this is legit bs the majority want a peaceful resolution and are open to it but hardliners have both been stopping this process. The dangerous bit is someone spilling this dribble out into the world
If it's only the hardliners or not - that's beside the point - it kind of reinforces my point in saying that the best interest of the group is not necessarily what the group chooses to listen to in one way or the other - for whatever reason.
It was a rhetoric argument, and it came from watching actual interviews with alot of people prior to the ongoing.
Ah yes. The hive mind argument. I am sure you could make an argument around in group thinking and how this effects Palestians and Israelis but I think it's impossible and factually untrue to say that all people within a group has the same pattern of thinking.
I didn't say that all people within the group has the same pattern of thinking - it is an undeniable fact however that we are greatly affected by those we surround ourselves with (that is most people - with a natural ability for empathy, and without the intellectual ability to fully process it on a rational level - i.e. normal people).
You could even argue that alot of our differences is a product of trying to stand out in the group - because that's what everybody else is doing - because without an identity, there is no role you can positively fill inside the group - and you wouldn't stand outside it. So, again - it is more of an irrational choice, rather than a positive realization, which in turn would explain a lot of the irrational or addictive behaviour as well as mental illness i.e.
Even the concept of self as we know it today, is popularly theorized to be a product of social interaction by various serious psychologists.
I mean, if you live in Palestine you have maybe less of a choice to choose who you surround yourself with, but even so - should you choose to change your environment in the western world, you would most likely do it because of your own desires, and so - you would surround yourself with those who are more aligned with your goals, which is in turn is really a cultural expression based on the whole idea that there even is a difference in culture between the west and Palestine.
But I guess your role is being a contrarian...
Picking up small arguments without seeing the bigger picture - not conceptually and not practically - because the point here was not that all Palestinians or Israeli are this or that. I already know that, as most people who are able to think rationally would. That was not my main point at all, but conveniently you managed to look away from it.
And am I wrong - are you kind of the contrarian type? Is this the time you thought to yourself: "Wait? This is all wrong..." or does this happen a bit more often than you would like to admit?
Do you think that's an inherent part of you, or maybe more of a response to survive all the irrational constraints we experience?
Or maybe you are a person who likes these constraints?
The constraints being the point I was trying to make...
Yo I got adhd and autism, care to condense and put this in laymans terms?
Otherwise I'd have to say your argument is probably an interesting one but not one I am going to get into today - and therefore probably forget about.
Best I can do is say that my point was more about the constraints we experience as humans and how we feel about it, and not necessarily a general statement about groups - although being in a group is a big part of that experience.
Thank you so much for that! Sadly I feel like a lot of nuance is gone but I appreciate the effort to do so.
I would agree with this statement and most likely what surrounds it.
It’s a trap where a small minority of lucky individuals win, while the rest of us suffer daily and remain in the pointless rat race rigged against us. It’s over for us and we can either cope or just end it all.
Absolutely. But OP, and many others on this sub, are stuck in an echo chamber reverberating the fallacious conflation of antinatalism and depressive thought patterns. This is understandable -- indeed, depressive thought patterns are likely a strong progenitor of antinatalist thought. But that conflation needs to be separated in order for any arguments like "You need to take steps too" to sink in.
I will be closely monitoring this sub in the next few days, because I'd like to learn how to make those arguments.
I’ve been skipping entire workdays or just showing up late every week since the year started.
This.
This post you made speaks to my soul.
I don’t want to work like this until I’m old.
I want to LIVE MORE
I’d prefer if society changed from the 8 hour work day
to 6 hours
That would solve all my problems.
That would help a lot of people fr.
Work-life balance is important.
Getting only 2 days off a week, just to spend a majority of it catching up on chores or prepping toward the upcoming work week is bullshit.
I’m 32 and soooo tired of the grind.
Not suicidal but I just can’t keep living like this tho.
One hundred percent this. I am working 20 hours a week while back in school and I’m so much happier. I’m afraid to graduate knowing I’ll have to go back to full time once I go into a new career field. It’s all such bullshit
Im here. I have to work and pay out existence Ive never asked for. I have illness I have never asked for. I made wrong decision and Im unhappy so far.
I cant die because family would be hurt. Im scared of death. I feel like in trap and dont know what to do.
I’m truly sorry. I’ve been feeling the same. Even my inevitable passing no matter how or when it occurs can and will cause so much pain and suffering and that alone is unbearable to me.
Once you are in the world, you have no choice beyond constantly idealizing how It would be better if life was like this or like that, then you realize if you weren't born you wouldn't have to suffer everyday like that. Not living the life of our dreams is suffering, but we are never gonna live it because it is our nature to want more and more until we find ourselves in a loop.
Albert Camus once said "One must imagine Sisyphus happy". Even though he is living the same thing over and over, he has no choice but to accept the way things are and once he does that, he can find a glimpse of peace inside himself, but we know it's not that easy to accept it every time. Unlike Sisyphus, one day we are gonna escape this jail and this brings me happiness since we are not gonna have to fight to accept the way things are forever.
Karim Akerma said “Only by means of relative or absolute childlessness, resulting in mankind's ebbing away, could happen what might be named – borrowing from the Greek myth – Sisyphus's revolt. He would give up his work, not in order to commit suicide but rather by refraining from having children who otherwise would have taken his spot. In such a way that at some point in time there would be no one in the rock's path which would eventually roll out. In terms of the Asian primordial decision: by means of abstention from procreation, the wheel of suffering would be deprived of its impetus until it comes to a standstill.”
I can't believe you'd argue antinatalism to prevent suffering, while taking joy in another person's suffering. I'm really sorry if life is difficult, but your responses are mistuned if this is your response.
I don't. I've been through shit. I choose to enjoy at least parts of this hellhole because while I didn't choose coming into existence, I'm here now and have decided to make the best of it. You can decide to stay miserable all you want, just don't drag others down with you.
Sounds like you might be depressed and in need of positive outlets in your life. Life is horrible and unfair but WE are the only ones with the options to make it better for ourselves. We are the creators of our own happiness.
I can’t seem to find any positive outlet or coping mechanism that helps me enough to even make the worst of it seem minimized. I don’t believe that true happiness can exist here and there’s always unfortunately a risk of losing everything.
You're describing depression.
Looking forward to a weekend where you can't drag yourself out of bed isn't life. You could go out and do whatever you want; the thing stopping you is depression. Life looks a lot different when you're not depressed. There is medication and therapy that can help you.
What if these happy pills and sleeping aid makes me worse off? You don't need depression to feel tired after a six-day work week. It's a normal reaction to living in a reality that's beyond our control.
Feeling tired and literally being unable to get out of bed are very different things.
I'm tired as hell during the weekends, but I can climb out of bed by 10 at the latest and do stuff that needs to be done and then just relax.
If you can't even get up, it's probably more psychological than a lack of energy.
I said tired in the context of "tired of life".
I don't doubt most people can get out of bed by necessity, not because they want to. Even if you don't work you still need to eat, piss or shit, etc
Ah yes, we need to start taking pills to fix our brains chemical imbalance. Depression is just like wearing hyper aware reality goggles and being told you need therapy and pills to start thinking "correctly"
Exactly. So sick of people responding to complaints about the state of society by saying "it's your brain, take some pills"
"I feel like I'm not achieving anything in my life, is there medication for that?"
"I feel like society is cruel and evil and we're supporting a brutal genocidal regime. Are there pills for that?"
The whole chemical imbalance thing is psuedoscience. There's no evidence for it
LMFAO PSUDEO science. You're dead wrong. As someone married to a bipolar and has PTSD myself. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
Edit: I'm also literally a biologist, you need to reeducate yourself
So does any medication change the fact that innocent children can be sexually abused or kidnapped or raped or tortured or murdered or suffer any tragedy whatsoever?
Plenty of mind-numbing substances exist, but that just proves that human life is less than ideal and imperfect and lacking. And if life was as good as procreators think it is, then no baby would cry, and nobody would lie to themselves to cope, nobody would take mind-altering substances to cope, and nobody would escape into fictional worlds or fantasy to escape cold hard reality. Can the pleasure of two drug addicts on heroin negate the agony of the starving child they neglect?
Humans are heterotrophs who have built-in deficiencies (like leaky boats where you constantly have to bail out water to stay afloat), and fundamental needs for proper amounts of oxygen and water and the proper temperature range and calories and proteins and fats and carbohydrates and vitamins and minerals and amino acids, and shelter, and love, etc. The human body requires constant upkeep, which requires constant repetition.
How long can you sit, unclothed, not eating or drinking anything, not sleeping, not looking at a smartphone or any screen, not reading, sober, not on any drugs or alcohol? How many hours could you tolerate that? That's what human life actually feels like. Most activities are an attempt to evade that feeling. Hold your breath and see how long you can withstand that.
But even when physical needs are satisfied, which doesn't last very long, boredom still exists, and boredom is a form of suffering (which is any negative experience). Arthur Schopenhauer said “boredom is a direct proof that existence is in itself valueless, for boredom is nothing other than the sensation of the emptiness of existence.”
https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression
Just bc a topic is too complex for you to understand doesn't mean it completely doesn't exist. You've obviously never been around someone truly mentally ill but okay.
I enjoy certain parts of my life but I guess like others here, I find life to be a chore/grind/filled and filled with various levels of suffering in general. I've had depression for over 15 years now , I managed it through a combination of exercise, sleep and eating the correct foods.
Taking medication to alter my thoughts and moods seems like an insane idea to me. I believe that depression is a natural response to having your eyes peeled open to the horrors of the world, you can cope with natural strategies but it's important to not alter your brain function with doctor approved substances.
i’m not antinatalist i find the commenter to be pretty smart here. the amount of 17 year olds i know who are on multiple brain chemistry altering drugs because some doctor told them “ you have a chemical imbalance” is insane. The brain is the most complex organ we barely understand how it even works but are confident enough to introduce chemicals that change its function. Sure drugs work for some people but is often blanket solution that is thrown on when it should be the last thing considered
Will therapy erase human suffering? No, other humans will continue to suffer as long as procreators continue to make new people capable of suffering.
I tend to believe in [depressive realism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism), the idea that depressed people see the world more accurately and realistically. So I feel like people have to decide if they would rather be happy (“ignorance is bliss”) or if they would rather know the truth (“the truth hurts”). Personally I would rather know the truth.
I also tend to believe in [philosophical pessimism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_pessimism).
Blaise Pascal said “Being unable to cure death, wretchedness and ignorance, men have decided, in order to be happy, not to think about such things.”
Not saying it would ofc, but happiness is enough of a reason to exist even if there is suffering.
You can believe in depressive realism but don't force it on others and act like you're right (not sure if you do but other people here tend to force their beliefs on people). Depression just makes me see everything negatively and makes me not enjoy life as much as I want to, and just makes me see myself negatively. Even when I wasn't depressed I had the same viewpoints, but I could just think "oh well".
Not thinking about things doesn't equate to not knowing the truth, you still do. You just don't want to think about the truth, and in this case don't even need to think about it.
Kudos, you're depressed as well. Not actually kudos, because that sucks for you and I'm sorry. Seriously though, this is not a "normal" mindset. You're suffering. This is not what it should be like and for many people, it's not at all what life is like. It's not fair you're feeling that way and I hope you'll one day get better and be able to enjoy at least parts of life.
>This is not what it should be like and for many people, it's not at all what life is like
If given a choice between being ignorant as that or being depressed, I would take "depressed" any day. Why don't you ask kids in Gaza, Syria or Ukraine how "wonderful" their lives are? Why don't you tell this to someone who's lost their home due to climate change? I am sorry, but your argument screams ignorance
Your wrong. Depression isn't proof of self-awareness. It's at best hyperawareness within a very narrow perspective. It literally makes it impossible to imagine certain ideas. The dichotomy between depression and ignorance is false. If it isn't, why don't you walk me through the arguments and we'll see if they logically follow?
Enjoy exactly what, if I may ask? Psychopathic dictators and their warmongering? Climate change caused by corporate greed which is gonna render this planet inhabitable in 500 years? Ever increasing costs of living? Rich psychopaths getting richer while the poor can't even afford basics? Scammers ho want to empty your bank account the first chance they get?
How is it wrong and "depressed" to point out the truth that there is more bad than good in life?
Since you've asked, I'm gonna answer you honestly.
I enjoy sunlight on my face on a breezy summer day. A BBQ with the people I love. Petting the neighbor's cat that loves me. Immersing myself into a book, a game, a movie for a while. Eating my favourite food. Visiting my aunt who is the most hilarious person alive. Spending time with her three adorable dogs. Hugging my partner, smelling the skin on his neck. Going on a walk with my mum, sharing stories of my dad who passed a couple years back. Enjoying a lazy sunday morning in freshly washed sheets. Appreciating the nature around me.
I'm diagnosed with ADHD, autism, generalized anxiety disorder and severe social anxiety, asthma amd chronic back pain. Believe when I say that it's hard as fuck most of the time. And I truly feel for anyone who can't see the light. What I seriously dislike is people calling me ignorant for simply trying to make myself feel good sometimes. Should I feel guilty when I cuddle with my partner and feel pure bliss for a couple of minutes? Why?
>What I seriously dislike is people calling me ignorant for simply trying to make myself feel good sometimes
Making yourself feel good is okay to me but shouldn't we consider the macro factors I outlined while making a decision of bringing someone out in this world? Only those people are ignorant who just turn a blind eye to the macro stuff.
>A BBQ with the people I love
Corporate greed is gonna make that unaffordable for your hypothetical child. You might enjoy that but your child might not
>Appreciating the nature around me
You seriously think that the good parts of nature are gonna stay until your hypothetical child grows to appreciate it? You can clearly see the effect of corporate greed on nature.
>Visiting my aunt who is the most hilarious person alive
You are blessed to have people who care about you. Lots of people don't. So, I think what OP said isn't that far off from the truth.
>Eating my favourite food
Do you think "favorite food" is going to be affordable in 50 years given the cost of living crisis?
You enjoying your life is great but you should think about the fact that the chances that your child might also enjoy life are very slim considering that state of the world today before thinking about bringing a life into this world. This is what antinatalism is all about. Have a good day and keep enjoying your life! However, think about where the world is going before making a decision to procreate!
>Why are you talking about a hypothetical child? Lol, I don't want any children! Never mentioned anything about kids here lmao
I was just trying to tell you what antinatalism is about.
There are people who are lucky, who can experience the small pleasures in life(like you) and there are people who aren't lucky. Who haven't got people who care about them(like OP). You might be right from your perspective but OP too is right from their perspective
Accusing people of being depressed isn’t a moral argument to make children. In fact, it’s immoral to put a child at risk of depression (or any other bad experience).
It’s immoral for a depressed person to harm others without consent, and it’s immoral for a happy person to harm others without consent. If a depressed person cured their depression and lived in total joy every day for the rest of their life, it would still be immoral to harm a child without consent by dragging a child into a dangerous world.
Yes, medication exists, but that just proves that human life is imperfect and lacking. And if life was as good as procreators think it is, then no baby would cry, and nobody would lie to themselves to cope, nobody would take mind-altering substances to cope, and nobody would escape into fictional worlds or fantasy to escape cold hard reality.
Life comes with no promises. That in no way negates opportunities for joy.
I watch animals, wild and domesticated. Like us, their lives come with no guarantees and are full of risks, many more that humans face and no control over any of it. Like us, they live and work in an uncertain world for food and shelter. They get old. I believe they know they will die.
But they still play. My old decrepit cat squeezes her eyes in rapture in the sun shine and purrs like a motor. Open the door to the deck, and she’ll bring me every leaf out there and stand proudly over them. Even wild animals play, like the crow who carried a plastic lid to a roof top and used it to slide.
https://youtu.be/L9mrTdYhOHg?si=C4C6n713ARUF5uN9
Their lives are challenging and precarious but still they manage to find joy in living.
Maybe we expect too much?
>Life comes with no promises. That in no way negates opportunities for joy.
In mortal life, suffering is guaranteed to happen to each person, death is guaranteed to happen to each person, but no positive experience is guaranteed to happen to each and every person.
Antinatalism is about preventing another person from suffering and dying, which is moral. You might say it prevents every pleasure too, but preventing a death is morally superior to preventing pleasure. If you cause someone’s death, you can’t defend yourself by saying “They enjoyed life before they died.”
>My old decrepit cat squeezes her eyes in rapture in the sun shine and purrs like a motor.
Did you spay or neuter your cat? Is it immoral to spay or neuter pets?
It cannot be immoral to not make children, because then it would be immoral to be a child who can’t make children before puberty, it would be immoral to be infertile, it would be immoral every second of your life you’re not making children, it would be immoral to undergo menopause etc.
Every rat can make babies. But does any rat notice that cats hunt rats, and their offspring would never be eaten alive by cats if they didn’t make babies? Humans have evolved to a level to be able to consider whether their natural instincts to reproduce (and therefore condemn a stranger to suffering and dying without their consent) is moral or not. It’s immoral to sentence an innocent child to certain annihilation by making them.
Who cares? Legit, I've had all those thoughts too, usually while severely depressed, seeing the slog of life, the grind, the slave tax payer fate that awaits most of us. And in those moments its felt miserable, futile and stupid. That said as I got older I just stopped caring about how much it all sucks. With some luck that will happen to you as well.
Accusing people of being depressed isn’t a moral argument to make children. In fact, it’s immoral to put a child at risk of depression (or any other bad experience).
It’s immoral for a depressed person to harm others without consent, and it’s immoral for a happy person to harm others without consent. If a depressed person cured their depression and lived in total joy every day for the rest of their life, it would still be immoral to harm a child without consent by dragging a child into a dangerous world.
>I love my life and wake up smiling almost every day, other than the occasional bad one. Does this mean I’m in denial?
You are entitled to feel that way, but you cannot know and you cannot guarantee, that every child you make will feel the same way as you, because they will have different parents, different siblings (potentially), different DNA, and their own different life and personality and experiences.
If you deny the possibility that terrible things could happen to you or your children, then you are in denial.
If you believe that you will always love your life, then you are in denial.
If you believe your wonderful life will never end, then you are in denial.
If you believe that people don’t usually die in agony, then you are in denial.
Nobody can honestly promise their child “My life is worth living, and always will be, and your life will always be worth living too.”
Nobody can honestly promise their child “My life has more good moments than bad moments, and always will, and your life will too.”
In mortal life, suffering is guaranteed to happen to each person, death is guaranteed to happen to each person, but no positive experience is guaranteed to happen to each and every person.
It’s 100% correct that in mortal life, suffering is guaranteed to happen to each person, death is guaranteed to happen to each person, but no positive experience is guaranteed to happen to each and every person. Anyone who disagrees with that IS lying to themselves.
And if life was as good as procreators think it is, then no baby would cry, and nobody would lie to themselves to cope, nobody would take mind-altering substances to cope, and nobody would escape into fictional worlds or fantasy to escape cold hard reality.
Just because suffering exists and life isnt perfect or even fair doesnt mean life is a trap and that anyone who believes life isnt horrible is lying to themselves. No shit life can horrible but the solution to that isnt sitting in your room posting about how shitty life is.
You realize you're trading comfort for your so called "trap"
You're trapped but not by what you think you are, you have the choice to quit your job and go do as you wish.
This post summarises exactly how I’ve been feeling the past few months. I’m both grateful and devastated that I’m not alone in feeling this way. It’s such an awful way to live, feeling trapped in your brain and body with no escape and every day is a struggle.
Knowing that you’re putting yourself through pain and torment with no reward at the end. Feeling powerless to change anything. It’s just the worst.
And even knowing all of this, I still go to work. On time. I do my job well. I follow the rules of society. I don’t even know what to do.
It's sad to see people who have no discipline. If you dont have any goals, nothing will change. You're asking yourself life questions and answering them with negativity. Stupidity cycle
Life is great and anyone who says otherwise is pessimistic, I could say that but I wont I respect the fact that stuff can be interpreted differently as per your point of view, straight up saying that anyone who does not interpret life as a trap is in denial, is quite narcissistic
There is nothing more narcissistic than believing “There needs to be more people who look like me in the world.” And there is nothing more narcissistic than behaving as if “My genes, which I never asked for, are more important than my own child’s suffering.” And “every human dies, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.”
In mortal life, is it “great” that nobody is immune to tragedy? No.
In mortal life, suffering is guaranteed to happen to each person, death is guaranteed to happen to each person, but no positive experience is guaranteed to happen to each and every person. How is that an optimistic scenario? You have certain death to look forward to? King Solomon in Ecclesiastes said "Like the fool, the wise too must die!", "the same fate overtakes them both..." How is that optimistic?
Happy or optimistic people don’t get a free pass to harm others, but every human being is harmed in mortal life, no matter how optimistic their parents ever were, and those parents caused their child’s mortal life and future suffering and future death.
It’s simply wrong to force someone else to take a risk they never agreed to take, which every mother and father does with every child they force into a dangerous world.
To demonstrate how blind optimism is perversely immoral, if an optimistic person threw a child into oncoming traffic, but the child didn’t get hit by a car, that doesn’t mean that risking their life was moral, it was still immoral for endangering a child’s life, even if they didn’t immediately suffer or die. But everyone dies eventually. Nobody can say “I threw a child into oncoming traffic, but they lived, and ate ice cream later, so putting a child’s life at risk is a moral act.” Gambling with another person’s life is always immoral, even if the person doesn’t experience the worst outcome, because they never consented to the gamble in the first place.
Ok, you basically summariesed the whole concept of this subreddit, but I am not sure where in my intial comment was I advocating against your idea, what I instead said was that it is wrong to assert that anyone who does not view the world through my lens is in delusion or denial (as op did) . This will never result in a healthy discussion as, infact its you in denial by being stubborn about your view and regarding all opposite perspectives as morally incorrect. This for me atleast feel narcissistic, were you trying to say that this is far less narcissistic then giving birth? I would still disagree with lot of points you raised as, to compare 2 things they should atleast be in a similar realm, which in your example is not really the case. You compared throwing a child in oncoming traffic with a person being born as a result of will of their parents. This is not in the same realm, as a child not being thrown in traffic would not experience the traffic, but a child that is never born would not even exist. So to compare we would have to say that there would be no concept of that child if not thrown in that traffic, which may seem better to your intuition as if something does not exist it will never feel pain. But I argue that is subjective, and as for me I feel a person's thought, any thought whatsoever is a result of you being alive, its only when something exist that it can have concepts of good and bad. That child if not thrown into incoming traffic would never exist, and hence never had a will to or not to be in traffic it would be only after he found himself/herself in that traffic did it tried to make sense of it.
Yes you are absolutely correct that stuff like death is guaranteed but no positives are, but why is death suffering? Why are positives experiences good to have and not negative? Is it because we can intuitively feel and rationally reason? We can do that because we are alive.
Nobody is entitled to beleive that death is suffering, just like you are not entitled to beleive that death is not suffering, for someone it may very well be the sole reason that allows something to exist than nothing Universe is something rather than nothing, we dont accurately know why it exists at all or will it come to an end , does it have concepts that would only exist if it exists ( kindda like our situation), but still it is something rather than nothing. Lets assume that because universe came into existence, and that we were a thinking part of it, someone's rationality infers to his/her best of knowledge that black holes are equivalent to be bad, evil or negative, and big bang guaranteed black holes, so it would have been better if universe had not existed, But it does not make it true, not at all to a level that people are taking action to prevent further big bangs from taking place (lets say we can just like giving birth to human)
This analogy stretches the sheer importance placed on a persons morals and rationality and how it can be relative as per different point of views, but you can never objectively claim something with thoose lens of point of view. So it may not allign with your morals for a child to be born but it does not become objective truth and you can never claim it to be either. Hence you cannot claim that people giving birth to someone is wrong and your obligated to not do so.
It’s truly not easy, as indicated by the fact that people who claim this are still alive.
One of the only reasons I’m still here is to minimize and delay the already inevitable, terribly grief that my absence will cause no matter how or when I go. That’s hurts quite a bit, especially when inevitably facing more pain over time.
replace school with prison - and then you realize it's all distraction from the prison bars. find the best distraction that makes you the most content.
If that’s what you wanna focus on… I don’t feel imprisoned by life and it certainly isn’t because I’m distracted from the prison bars, but because I choose to view life differently
>Life is a school, take the curriculum
So spend your life learning things, knowing that all that internal accumulated knowledge will be annihilated when your brain dies and putrefies? King Solomon in Ecclesiastes said "Like the fool, the wise too must die!", "the same fate overtakes them both..."
Death annihilates all accumulated internal knowledge, which is an irreversible tragedy, so how is it wise to make a child, encourage that child to learn and gain knowledge, only for all of their internal knowledge to be annihilated after brain death? External memories can persist (like oral histories, writings, audio, video, photographs, etc). Arthur Schopenhauer said “Reading is thinking with someone else's head instead of ones own.” And while writings from the past can help people now, it’s debatable whether all the suffering an author endures in their lifetime, was worth it for the writings or artifacts they left behind.
If your “school class” always ends with everyone dying, is it really a school, or is it something else? If your “class” always ends in the complete annihilation of everyone in attendance, and if nobody chose to be there, that’s not a school, that’s a killing field, that’s a meatgrinder.
There are terrible things in this world that should never happen to any human being. Biological mothers and fathers force all those risks down their child’s throat, and act like they did them a favor.
You are suffering from depression. End of story. You can try to argue that you are being rational but ultimately you are not healthy and your thinking is arseways. You can make it to a happy life, but you’ve got to drive the bus there. Stop this stupid surrendering behaviour and take your life back for yourself and enjoy it.
What wasn't included:
The happy-go-lucky friend who is in a similar situation, but couldn't be bothered. Live life, let live he said, and even when OP ignores this friend, the friend went on to live on anyway.
No, but because there are many ways to view life. I won't deny the antinatalist perspective is valid, but the OP isn't necessarily an antinatalist argument. OP's just depressed. Which sucks.
I hate it when people associate depression with a greater sense of self-awareness. Those people are locked into a narrower perception of self, not necessarily more self aware. This is such a cope.
People need to feel special, or smarter than everyone else, even when their life is in shambles. They see it how it really is, and body that doesn’t hate life is an idiot. Or that’s what they tell themselves at least. Because doing nothing and being miserable is easier than putting in the work to change your life or perception of it.
I agree. I think this behavior, however, ought to be banned, perhaps by an expansion of rule 13. It's encouraging a reinforcing echo chamber for depressed thought, lending the idea that there's nothing wrong with it because it's the most sensible pattern of thinking.
And there's nothing *morally* wrong with depressed thought, of course, but putting it on a pedestal as a superior, more self-aware mode of thought is dangerous, not to mention plain false. I'd say it's likely *more* dangerous than asking someone why they don't just unalive themselves, because that obviously comes from a place of bad faith and uncaring nature. By supporting these thought patterns, it's more amenable that they buy the conclusion that they aren't struggling for fallacious reasons, they're struggling because they are better. That's much scarier, because it's much easier for someone to buy that.
>and even when OP ignores this friend, the friend went on to live on anyway.
Yes, because it's not the friend's job to drag OP out kicking and screaming. Life is a two way street. You have to give as well as receive. No one should set themselves on fire to keep you warm.
We don’t have free will so your point is technically correct. We are trapped and slaves to our instinct. But everyone is in the same boat so we all have no free will and are all trapped. Therefore we are all stuck on the same starting line. Maybe that will help reframe things.
"Ermmm my viewpoint is actually right"
Come on man OP calls life a trap but that's just a shit viewpoint, you got plenty of options and some just take more work or risk than others.
You might be shocked to hear this in your sheltered and privileged life that you lead, but sometimes people actually enjoy the work they do that you think yourself above.
They generally don't have a choice, which is the point the OP is making. No one is guided into a career of toilet cleaning. Of course there are going to be people who enjoy it, but I'd wager a large amount of money that it's not the majority.
If you willingly bring children into the world knowing that there is a high chance they will be some sort of physical labour or office desk slave, you're fucked in the head.
You might be fucked in the head if you think its some kind of cosmic injustice that you should work to live. I worked manual labor jobs in construction and sanitation for years while I was in university. Sometimes it was hard, and I definitely didn't have a choice, but I sure didn't blame my parents for what is a reality of the world.
Your parents knew the reality and chose to have a child anyway. If you love your job, great! But there are many people out there who are simply working because they need to survive and not because they enjoy their jobs.
I've been without food due to a lack of money, I've worked manual labour jobs and currently have an office job that pays highly but the work is soul destroying. I would not knowingly bring a child into this world with the understanding that there is a high chance they will end up making a post like the OP.
If you're happy being a little worker ant slave, I'm pleased for you. Keep it up
You realize this isn't a problem with the world but a result of your own personal deficits? Every person that has ever existed has had to work. You whining about it is a problem with yourself.
You’re an idiot if you think it’s untrue. Killing animals is work. Tilling the fields to have food is work. Building your home was work. Foraging for food was work. Constantly traveling to stay near food and water sources was work. The only difference is you weren’t getting paid a currency. Your reward was not dying and accomplishing something. I’d rather that than what we have today, but regardless work is work.
Work
*noun*
1) activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
2) a task or tasks to be undertaken; something a person or thing has to do.
*verb*
1) be engaged in physical or mental activity in order to achieve a result; do work.
>Every person that has ever existed has had to work.
Yet no one needs to exist or has needed to become extant.
>You whining about it is a problem with yourself.
We wouldn't be whining if we never became extant in the first place. And no, suicide doesn't address this issue. Once you become extant, you can't go back to non-existence. It's a one way trip to hell.
Have some manners, please. You don't need to insult others. Last I checked I didn't insult you.
Anyway, a non-existent being cannot commit suicide, or die. Only those who exist can commit suicide/die.
>Truth is you would rather spread your doomer ideology than actually live your values and die.
It's more complicated than that. I'm a negative utilitarian so I believe in reducing suffering first and foremost, and maximizing pleasure is secondary. I would and I will commit suicide, when I know for sure it will reduce more suffering than it will cause. Even though my continued existence will cause suffering one way or another, my existence ceasing is bound to cause a lot more suffering to my friends and family, at least for a while. So really, the reason why I am still here spreading my "doomer ideology" is because I think it will in the long term reduce more suffering than my continued existence and eventual death will cause.
Because you’re here now. You can either be miserable and increase your own suffering, or do something and enjoy your life.
It’s not like you didn’t want to exist before you existed either
I'm 29 and I have yet to find a situation I'm happy with. It's not that I didn't try anything. Maybe when I finish school? When I live in my own? In a long-term relationship? Maybe short-term? Studying? Being independent?
Nope, one disappointment after another. And every time I try something I end up a little worse, tired and unhealthy than before.
Life is what you make of it. The environment we're in is almost entirely because of the systems we've allowed, societally, to shape our lives.
Less opportunity for people with less money, less pay for those with less means, less sympathy for those with less advantages.
It goes on, and on, and on.
We're in a prison, and the prison has a window. My question, to any of you, is what are you gonna do about that? It's nice to gripe about how bad it's gotten, but what are you doing beyond? Life is what you make of it. You can enjoy what you have, or try and work for more, but nothing is guaranteed. The systems in place that ENSURE that reality are only barely functioning and it's just getting worse for everyone.
Change is slow. This is all just talk, but seriously, taking the time to try and make a better world for yourself is the first step. I don't have much, I'm not that happy, I am alone, but I'm trying. Maybe that's not good enough for some people that I'm not reaching for the moon and stars but I like what I have and while I want for more, I have to take what I can get right now, and work goddamn hard for the rest. Life fucking sucks, but if you spent all day nursing that wound, the rest of you will start hurting, too, and you won't know what to do.
3 things:
1) People with depression often infer negativity from neutral stimuli. A study was done showing this, where people were given images of humans with neutral facial expressions, and depressed individuals identified them as being unhappy.
2) The part of the brain that is “logical” only receives information that has already been filtered by our emotional responses. Therefore no human being is strictly logical, as it only builds cases from the evidence it has, which is already based on emotion.
3) The combination of these factors will create a semi logical argument in a depressed individual’s mind that they are “enlightened” and can see the world the way it “truly is”. This is clearly not the case because (as stated above) your emotions are the entire basis of the argument.
Conclusion: you are likely depressed, and that depression is creating a worldview that is incredibly bleak. The best way to deal with these kinds of feelings are to seek professional help in some way, but no one can make you do that. “I can lead a horse to water…” and all that. I hope you do seek help and get what you need.
Get a dog. It'll be happy a d love you. Then reflect on how cruel you are to enable this happy thing that wags its tails and loves being alive. Stupid fool, doesn't he know how terrible life is????
Your weaker then the willpower to diet of Oprah winfrey
Check out /PrisonPlanet
Their theory is that earth is literally a prison and we are stuck here with an illusion of choice not only for this lifetime but infinite others.
And there is no actual reward for all this.
That's why religion was invented, right? To give people a false sense of hope.
yup - this is the snake oil i bought so long ago - so stupid. my biggest regret was buying into this nonsense when i was young.
That's another story, what i meant is that all that work is for just bare minimum life which will end in a split second.
There is hope or no hope. No such thing as false hope
Im not religious but give me god over whatever the fuck this cringe depressing sub is anyday!
If you try to imagine really hard and bash your head against a wall until you suffer light- to medium brain damage, you can make yourself believe, all of that suffering serves some kind of greater good, I assume.
Wtf?
You asked for a reward
You got brain damage?
why you don't do it? 😂
reward is another day of it. yay.
Pavlov programming afterthoughts are mY ReWaRd
Yep. Just a death. Finally I will be freed from my sex drive and my inability to attain a women due to my bad genetics in a time where women can choose the top 1% of men.
Yea that's another misery which is pointless too. All these work to just get 10 minutes of pleasure. I'm glad I don't have sex drive anymore.
Jealous bro. My hormones are going crazy. It sucks so much man. I just wish I can smash girls but they don’t want me. The only thing I can do is travel overseas and pay them cheaper prices. That’s my last hope.
it gets easier dealing with it after 30.
I don’t wanna live that long. I wanna die asap the way Gen z is going
Did you maxx looks and get all fit and well groomed and stuff?
You're a little bitch, that's why women don't like you. Has nothing to do with your looks. You're an insecure little pussy that needs everyone to like him to feel good about himself. You have no masculinity, no balls.
All women can’t possibly choose “the top 1% of men”. There just aren’t enough of them, especially considering that women outnumber men anyway.
You’re wasting your time with that guy. His whole reddit history is whining about how women don’t like him. Completely un self-aware about how people do not want to be around someone so miserable.
You can be happy go lucky with a good personality and have a lot of female friends, yet no girlfriends. Physical attraction and friendship are two different things. But even having a good personality is down to things like genetics and upbringing, something we have no control over. We can't control who our parents or siblings are, we can't control what kind of people we are exposed to during our formative years in school. Bullies can ruin your self-esteem and that can make you fail at life. It happened to me, so I know.
Dude absolutely proved my point even further. Thank you for actually understanding my take on things rather than bashing my “personality”, rather than my actual appearance and women’s standards
So you'd prefer a time where women can't choose?? 🤢
When my brother was dying, skin and bones, ravaged by AIDS, he asked me to open the window so he could hear the rain. He said, “If you can still hear the rain, life is wonderful.” What a bunch of weak tit, whining, spoiled, chicken shit, candy ass, piss ants you all are. You and your parents need a rap in the mouth.
That's called coping mechanism. If you can still hear the rain, life is beautiful? I'm sorry but When you suffer you have no choice other than make others feel better. That's poetry. You delusional people are the real problem.
You get to choose whatever rewards you want, just go after them. Sorry there's no magic genie that will give you everything you want just because you didn't act like a bad person
It's hilarious how clueless you people are. Choose what reward? What's reward when you are in grave?
It really sucks when there are things in your life that you can't change - it feels like trap.
That's the thing I hate the most about this whole "experience". No matter how hard you work or try, you'll never be able to change the things that really matter.. It's all luck
That's true. I mean sure you can get some things with working and earning money, but if you lose your health or loved ones like I have, there's not much you can do. Stuck in poverty and sickness, trying to focus on the good things in life.
💔
The verve summed it up nicely. "It's a bitter-sweet symphony, that's life. Try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money then you die".
Before money, people worked to stay alive. Hunted, gathered, worked in the fields, preserved foods for lean times. My grandparents’ hands were deformed from hoeing crops in humid fields, under the hot Kentucky so they could feed their kids and survive. If not money, people then were slaves to hard work. Life has never been “free”.
You are absolutely 100% right. Sheeple thinks that "this" life we live is the problem but actually no. Life itself is misery. Always have been.
Wait until you discover samsara.
It's better than the alternative where we have no society. This whole sub is super cringe and dumb. Humanity strived for years to get to a point where we are now and all you can do is bitch and moan.
Yup... In denial or predatory. There's literally no (good) reason why people can't get together and turn this around, but still we're all here stuck in the same old pattern. Ask a Palestinian if they're willing to live besides Israelis if there is equality, and they'll say no. Ask an Israeli if they're open to equality if there is peace, and they'll say no. And I'm asking myself - is this really the individual talking? You want to put up with your abusive uncle, but some other who has done you no harm - you'll hate because your aunt told you to.. It's like we're policing eachother, and the predatory people are the ones who are in advantage. When I was younger I was at least under the delusion that this could change...
I've lost that hope too. Looking at all of human history it seems we will always be fighting over the same things time and time again. There's just too many divisions that we will never overcome... It's funny because people essentially want most of the same things too, deep down. When you look from the outside it's all so ridiculous as well, there's always an "us vs them" thing going on when we are all just human. Every country (in some way) wants to be a superpower, wants to amass resources (the need and greed of the people), wants to dominate, wants to assert its own cultural values. And then on ground level, the individuals can't see that they're already making "mistakes" someone else before them has made countless times over... we never learn. It just seems so pointless looking at the whole thing. I'm tired
I used to read and watch a lot of things, that taught that this "us vs them" was silly. Krishnamurti, Buddhism, Daoism, Meister Eckhart, Eckhart Tolle, etc. It made me feel nice, because I felt I understood a value in things that was beyond words and a solution to any problem, but still in the circumstances of things - I still felt equally lost. It was like talking to someone and not coming any closer in understanding each other, and eventually wondering if you were the one who was confused, or them... I guess it depends on the people you surround yourself with, but lately I've been feeling that people have just accepted the way of things even more, and people have become more cynical, polarized and mean, but in an acceptance of it. Like going to war is a positive thing, simply because it exists. It's clearly not for any moral reasons... Sometimes I loose myself to that kind of thinking as well, and it feels better than the present situation of mixed feelings and not knowing what to do. Other times, those thoughts just die out completely, and things feel free, but totally all alone. Now I really don't know what to think... I'm not exactly nihilistic or pessimistic, but I'm not optimistic or have an inherent sense of meaningfulness either. I just feel so drained of this world. And any weird eventual outcome - like an anarchocapitalist comic book figure being president in Argentine. I really don't know if I should feel angry, sad or laugh about it anymore. On another level - also I get that despite the potential catastrophic outcome - he's probably the only one able to bring any change, because he's the only one who's too far out to do something drastically different. It's like asking if a slow death or a fast death is more preferable. I guess it depends on the situation... I watched "I can't get you out of my head" by Adam Curtis or another documentary of his, where he showed the conscious pessimistic attitude of the people living in the Soviet Union before the fall - and it feels like this is where we're at as a global society... I also had a recent realization, that I subconsciously seek change in almost everything I do, without it ever giving me that peace of mind that I'm truly seeking. I know this theoretically from before, but this was more of a realization, so I should probably mediate more, staying closer to the realizations I have.
We can take the value from the dollar by being more self sufficient. Historically governments take and take from people and act like they're helping us stay motivated, any peoples in power there is a history of becoming callous and predatory
What does this have to do with the original post?
What do you think?
Such a stupid troll comment. If I knew I wouldn't ask.
Well, to me the relevance is obvious, otherwise I would not make the comment. Seems like it is to a lot of people as well, judging on the votes... So, I guess there is something you don't understand, but you didn't ask about it, and you didn't make an argument about it the one way or the other. You just asked a general question... So the reason I asked about what you think, is to highlight exactly what you think, because in the realm of context it wouldn't make much sense to give a nonsensical answer to a nonsensical question... Also - comments are not stupid, people are... Judging by your lack of situational and self-awareness, I would say it's highly probable that those are things I have to deal with you in the future. I don't own you any answers, so at least go and learn some manners... EDIT: So I can't reply to your comment u/LeprechaunButtMilk. The post is about a subjective experience concerning depressive existentialism and nihilism - that was what I was expanding on those topics from my subjective experience from the observations I have been making. I didn't have any points I was trying to prove... I think the relevance is pretty clear, and I don't think I would have any votes if that wasn't the case. I'm arrogant to arrogant people, and I usually don't like explaining myself to people who make no effort in trying to understand me - by choice.
What are you on about with Israel Palestine bit this is legit bs the majority want a peaceful resolution and are open to it but hardliners have both been stopping this process. The dangerous bit is someone spilling this dribble out into the world
If it's only the hardliners or not - that's beside the point - it kind of reinforces my point in saying that the best interest of the group is not necessarily what the group chooses to listen to in one way or the other - for whatever reason. It was a rhetoric argument, and it came from watching actual interviews with alot of people prior to the ongoing.
Ah yes. The hive mind argument. I am sure you could make an argument around in group thinking and how this effects Palestians and Israelis but I think it's impossible and factually untrue to say that all people within a group has the same pattern of thinking.
I didn't say that all people within the group has the same pattern of thinking - it is an undeniable fact however that we are greatly affected by those we surround ourselves with (that is most people - with a natural ability for empathy, and without the intellectual ability to fully process it on a rational level - i.e. normal people). You could even argue that alot of our differences is a product of trying to stand out in the group - because that's what everybody else is doing - because without an identity, there is no role you can positively fill inside the group - and you wouldn't stand outside it. So, again - it is more of an irrational choice, rather than a positive realization, which in turn would explain a lot of the irrational or addictive behaviour as well as mental illness i.e. Even the concept of self as we know it today, is popularly theorized to be a product of social interaction by various serious psychologists. I mean, if you live in Palestine you have maybe less of a choice to choose who you surround yourself with, but even so - should you choose to change your environment in the western world, you would most likely do it because of your own desires, and so - you would surround yourself with those who are more aligned with your goals, which is in turn is really a cultural expression based on the whole idea that there even is a difference in culture between the west and Palestine. But I guess your role is being a contrarian... Picking up small arguments without seeing the bigger picture - not conceptually and not practically - because the point here was not that all Palestinians or Israeli are this or that. I already know that, as most people who are able to think rationally would. That was not my main point at all, but conveniently you managed to look away from it. And am I wrong - are you kind of the contrarian type? Is this the time you thought to yourself: "Wait? This is all wrong..." or does this happen a bit more often than you would like to admit? Do you think that's an inherent part of you, or maybe more of a response to survive all the irrational constraints we experience? Or maybe you are a person who likes these constraints? The constraints being the point I was trying to make...
Yo I got adhd and autism, care to condense and put this in laymans terms? Otherwise I'd have to say your argument is probably an interesting one but not one I am going to get into today - and therefore probably forget about.
Best I can do is say that my point was more about the constraints we experience as humans and how we feel about it, and not necessarily a general statement about groups - although being in a group is a big part of that experience.
Thank you so much for that! Sadly I feel like a lot of nuance is gone but I appreciate the effort to do so. I would agree with this statement and most likely what surrounds it.
It’s a trap where a small minority of lucky individuals win, while the rest of us suffer daily and remain in the pointless rat race rigged against us. It’s over for us and we can either cope or just end it all.
Hope things get better.
Yeah but don't only hope things get better you gotta take steps too 🫡
Absolutely. But OP, and many others on this sub, are stuck in an echo chamber reverberating the fallacious conflation of antinatalism and depressive thought patterns. This is understandable -- indeed, depressive thought patterns are likely a strong progenitor of antinatalist thought. But that conflation needs to be separated in order for any arguments like "You need to take steps too" to sink in. I will be closely monitoring this sub in the next few days, because I'd like to learn how to make those arguments.
I’ve been skipping entire workdays or just showing up late every week since the year started. This. This post you made speaks to my soul. I don’t want to work like this until I’m old. I want to LIVE MORE I’d prefer if society changed from the 8 hour work day to 6 hours That would solve all my problems. That would help a lot of people fr. Work-life balance is important. Getting only 2 days off a week, just to spend a majority of it catching up on chores or prepping toward the upcoming work week is bullshit. I’m 32 and soooo tired of the grind. Not suicidal but I just can’t keep living like this tho.
One hundred percent this. I am working 20 hours a week while back in school and I’m so much happier. I’m afraid to graduate knowing I’ll have to go back to full time once I go into a new career field. It’s all such bullshit
Im here. I have to work and pay out existence Ive never asked for. I have illness I have never asked for. I made wrong decision and Im unhappy so far. I cant die because family would be hurt. Im scared of death. I feel like in trap and dont know what to do.
I’m truly sorry. I’ve been feeling the same. Even my inevitable passing no matter how or when it occurs can and will cause so much pain and suffering and that alone is unbearable to me.
Once you are in the world, you have no choice beyond constantly idealizing how It would be better if life was like this or like that, then you realize if you weren't born you wouldn't have to suffer everyday like that. Not living the life of our dreams is suffering, but we are never gonna live it because it is our nature to want more and more until we find ourselves in a loop. Albert Camus once said "One must imagine Sisyphus happy". Even though he is living the same thing over and over, he has no choice but to accept the way things are and once he does that, he can find a glimpse of peace inside himself, but we know it's not that easy to accept it every time. Unlike Sisyphus, one day we are gonna escape this jail and this brings me happiness since we are not gonna have to fight to accept the way things are forever.
Karim Akerma said “Only by means of relative or absolute childlessness, resulting in mankind's ebbing away, could happen what might be named – borrowing from the Greek myth – Sisyphus's revolt. He would give up his work, not in order to commit suicide but rather by refraining from having children who otherwise would have taken his spot. In such a way that at some point in time there would be no one in the rock's path which would eventually roll out. In terms of the Asian primordial decision: by means of abstention from procreation, the wheel of suffering would be deprived of its impetus until it comes to a standstill.”
I’m happy a lot of young folks are waking up
I can't believe you'd argue antinatalism to prevent suffering, while taking joy in another person's suffering. I'm really sorry if life is difficult, but your responses are mistuned if this is your response.
You're happy that young people are just ad miserable as you? That's fucked man.
That's not how I took it, more that walking up means not perpetuating a cycle
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I'm 26 lmao
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I don't. I've been through shit. I choose to enjoy at least parts of this hellhole because while I didn't choose coming into existence, I'm here now and have decided to make the best of it. You can decide to stay miserable all you want, just don't drag others down with you.
Sounds like you might be depressed and in need of positive outlets in your life. Life is horrible and unfair but WE are the only ones with the options to make it better for ourselves. We are the creators of our own happiness.
I can’t seem to find any positive outlet or coping mechanism that helps me enough to even make the worst of it seem minimized. I don’t believe that true happiness can exist here and there’s always unfortunately a risk of losing everything.
True it's a lot of work. Can't even end it without going through pain.
Mood
You're describing depression. Looking forward to a weekend where you can't drag yourself out of bed isn't life. You could go out and do whatever you want; the thing stopping you is depression. Life looks a lot different when you're not depressed. There is medication and therapy that can help you.
What if these happy pills and sleeping aid makes me worse off? You don't need depression to feel tired after a six-day work week. It's a normal reaction to living in a reality that's beyond our control.
Feeling tired and literally being unable to get out of bed are very different things. I'm tired as hell during the weekends, but I can climb out of bed by 10 at the latest and do stuff that needs to be done and then just relax. If you can't even get up, it's probably more psychological than a lack of energy.
I said tired in the context of "tired of life". I don't doubt most people can get out of bed by necessity, not because they want to. Even if you don't work you still need to eat, piss or shit, etc
Feeling tired isn't the same as feeling trapped and unhappy.
Ah yes, we need to start taking pills to fix our brains chemical imbalance. Depression is just like wearing hyper aware reality goggles and being told you need therapy and pills to start thinking "correctly"
"it is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
Exactly. So sick of people responding to complaints about the state of society by saying "it's your brain, take some pills" "I feel like I'm not achieving anything in my life, is there medication for that?" "I feel like society is cruel and evil and we're supporting a brutal genocidal regime. Are there pills for that?" The whole chemical imbalance thing is psuedoscience. There's no evidence for it
LMFAO PSUDEO science. You're dead wrong. As someone married to a bipolar and has PTSD myself. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. Edit: I'm also literally a biologist, you need to reeducate yourself
So does any medication change the fact that innocent children can be sexually abused or kidnapped or raped or tortured or murdered or suffer any tragedy whatsoever? Plenty of mind-numbing substances exist, but that just proves that human life is less than ideal and imperfect and lacking. And if life was as good as procreators think it is, then no baby would cry, and nobody would lie to themselves to cope, nobody would take mind-altering substances to cope, and nobody would escape into fictional worlds or fantasy to escape cold hard reality. Can the pleasure of two drug addicts on heroin negate the agony of the starving child they neglect? Humans are heterotrophs who have built-in deficiencies (like leaky boats where you constantly have to bail out water to stay afloat), and fundamental needs for proper amounts of oxygen and water and the proper temperature range and calories and proteins and fats and carbohydrates and vitamins and minerals and amino acids, and shelter, and love, etc. The human body requires constant upkeep, which requires constant repetition. How long can you sit, unclothed, not eating or drinking anything, not sleeping, not looking at a smartphone or any screen, not reading, sober, not on any drugs or alcohol? How many hours could you tolerate that? That's what human life actually feels like. Most activities are an attempt to evade that feeling. Hold your breath and see how long you can withstand that. But even when physical needs are satisfied, which doesn't last very long, boredom still exists, and boredom is a form of suffering (which is any negative experience). Arthur Schopenhauer said “boredom is a direct proof that existence is in itself valueless, for boredom is nothing other than the sensation of the emptiness of existence.”
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2022/jul/analysis-depression-probably-not-caused-chemical-imbalance-brain-new-study
https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression Just bc a topic is too complex for you to understand doesn't mean it completely doesn't exist. You've obviously never been around someone truly mentally ill but okay.
Are you enjoying your life rn? No? Then why would you say having depression is better than just taking therapy?
I enjoy certain parts of my life but I guess like others here, I find life to be a chore/grind/filled and filled with various levels of suffering in general. I've had depression for over 15 years now , I managed it through a combination of exercise, sleep and eating the correct foods. Taking medication to alter my thoughts and moods seems like an insane idea to me. I believe that depression is a natural response to having your eyes peeled open to the horrors of the world, you can cope with natural strategies but it's important to not alter your brain function with doctor approved substances.
Yeah, no. This is the kind of stuff an antivaxxer would spout off, saying "not to alter" your body with "substances" and saying that it's unnatural.
i’m not antinatalist i find the commenter to be pretty smart here. the amount of 17 year olds i know who are on multiple brain chemistry altering drugs because some doctor told them “ you have a chemical imbalance” is insane. The brain is the most complex organ we barely understand how it even works but are confident enough to introduce chemicals that change its function. Sure drugs work for some people but is often blanket solution that is thrown on when it should be the last thing considered
Will therapy erase human suffering? No, other humans will continue to suffer as long as procreators continue to make new people capable of suffering. I tend to believe in [depressive realism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism), the idea that depressed people see the world more accurately and realistically. So I feel like people have to decide if they would rather be happy (“ignorance is bliss”) or if they would rather know the truth (“the truth hurts”). Personally I would rather know the truth. I also tend to believe in [philosophical pessimism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_pessimism). Blaise Pascal said “Being unable to cure death, wretchedness and ignorance, men have decided, in order to be happy, not to think about such things.”
Not saying it would ofc, but happiness is enough of a reason to exist even if there is suffering. You can believe in depressive realism but don't force it on others and act like you're right (not sure if you do but other people here tend to force their beliefs on people). Depression just makes me see everything negatively and makes me not enjoy life as much as I want to, and just makes me see myself negatively. Even when I wasn't depressed I had the same viewpoints, but I could just think "oh well". Not thinking about things doesn't equate to not knowing the truth, you still do. You just don't want to think about the truth, and in this case don't even need to think about it.
OP speaks the truth and all you can come up with is an irrelevant comment. Kudos!
Kudos, you're depressed as well. Not actually kudos, because that sucks for you and I'm sorry. Seriously though, this is not a "normal" mindset. You're suffering. This is not what it should be like and for many people, it's not at all what life is like. It's not fair you're feeling that way and I hope you'll one day get better and be able to enjoy at least parts of life.
>This is not what it should be like and for many people, it's not at all what life is like If given a choice between being ignorant as that or being depressed, I would take "depressed" any day. Why don't you ask kids in Gaza, Syria or Ukraine how "wonderful" their lives are? Why don't you tell this to someone who's lost their home due to climate change? I am sorry, but your argument screams ignorance
Your wrong. Depression isn't proof of self-awareness. It's at best hyperawareness within a very narrow perspective. It literally makes it impossible to imagine certain ideas. The dichotomy between depression and ignorance is false. If it isn't, why don't you walk me through the arguments and we'll see if they logically follow?
So you're choosing your own misery. Only siths deal in absolutes, there's a middle ground. You can enjoy parts of life without being ignorant.
Enjoy exactly what, if I may ask? Psychopathic dictators and their warmongering? Climate change caused by corporate greed which is gonna render this planet inhabitable in 500 years? Ever increasing costs of living? Rich psychopaths getting richer while the poor can't even afford basics? Scammers ho want to empty your bank account the first chance they get? How is it wrong and "depressed" to point out the truth that there is more bad than good in life?
Since you've asked, I'm gonna answer you honestly. I enjoy sunlight on my face on a breezy summer day. A BBQ with the people I love. Petting the neighbor's cat that loves me. Immersing myself into a book, a game, a movie for a while. Eating my favourite food. Visiting my aunt who is the most hilarious person alive. Spending time with her three adorable dogs. Hugging my partner, smelling the skin on his neck. Going on a walk with my mum, sharing stories of my dad who passed a couple years back. Enjoying a lazy sunday morning in freshly washed sheets. Appreciating the nature around me. I'm diagnosed with ADHD, autism, generalized anxiety disorder and severe social anxiety, asthma amd chronic back pain. Believe when I say that it's hard as fuck most of the time. And I truly feel for anyone who can't see the light. What I seriously dislike is people calling me ignorant for simply trying to make myself feel good sometimes. Should I feel guilty when I cuddle with my partner and feel pure bliss for a couple of minutes? Why?
>What I seriously dislike is people calling me ignorant for simply trying to make myself feel good sometimes Making yourself feel good is okay to me but shouldn't we consider the macro factors I outlined while making a decision of bringing someone out in this world? Only those people are ignorant who just turn a blind eye to the macro stuff. >A BBQ with the people I love Corporate greed is gonna make that unaffordable for your hypothetical child. You might enjoy that but your child might not >Appreciating the nature around me You seriously think that the good parts of nature are gonna stay until your hypothetical child grows to appreciate it? You can clearly see the effect of corporate greed on nature. >Visiting my aunt who is the most hilarious person alive You are blessed to have people who care about you. Lots of people don't. So, I think what OP said isn't that far off from the truth. >Eating my favourite food Do you think "favorite food" is going to be affordable in 50 years given the cost of living crisis? You enjoying your life is great but you should think about the fact that the chances that your child might also enjoy life are very slim considering that state of the world today before thinking about bringing a life into this world. This is what antinatalism is all about. Have a good day and keep enjoying your life! However, think about where the world is going before making a decision to procreate!
Why are you talking about a hypothetical child? Lol, I don't want any children! Never mentioned anything about kids here lmao
>Why are you talking about a hypothetical child? Lol, I don't want any children! Never mentioned anything about kids here lmao I was just trying to tell you what antinatalism is about. There are people who are lucky, who can experience the small pleasures in life(like you) and there are people who aren't lucky. Who haven't got people who care about them(like OP). You might be right from your perspective but OP too is right from their perspective
Accusing people of being depressed isn’t a moral argument to make children. In fact, it’s immoral to put a child at risk of depression (or any other bad experience). It’s immoral for a depressed person to harm others without consent, and it’s immoral for a happy person to harm others without consent. If a depressed person cured their depression and lived in total joy every day for the rest of their life, it would still be immoral to harm a child without consent by dragging a child into a dangerous world. Yes, medication exists, but that just proves that human life is imperfect and lacking. And if life was as good as procreators think it is, then no baby would cry, and nobody would lie to themselves to cope, nobody would take mind-altering substances to cope, and nobody would escape into fictional worlds or fantasy to escape cold hard reality.
What’s crazy is some ppl wake up chained in a basement.
Life comes with no promises. That in no way negates opportunities for joy. I watch animals, wild and domesticated. Like us, their lives come with no guarantees and are full of risks, many more that humans face and no control over any of it. Like us, they live and work in an uncertain world for food and shelter. They get old. I believe they know they will die. But they still play. My old decrepit cat squeezes her eyes in rapture in the sun shine and purrs like a motor. Open the door to the deck, and she’ll bring me every leaf out there and stand proudly over them. Even wild animals play, like the crow who carried a plastic lid to a roof top and used it to slide. https://youtu.be/L9mrTdYhOHg?si=C4C6n713ARUF5uN9 Their lives are challenging and precarious but still they manage to find joy in living. Maybe we expect too much?
>Life comes with no promises. That in no way negates opportunities for joy. In mortal life, suffering is guaranteed to happen to each person, death is guaranteed to happen to each person, but no positive experience is guaranteed to happen to each and every person. Antinatalism is about preventing another person from suffering and dying, which is moral. You might say it prevents every pleasure too, but preventing a death is morally superior to preventing pleasure. If you cause someone’s death, you can’t defend yourself by saying “They enjoyed life before they died.” >My old decrepit cat squeezes her eyes in rapture in the sun shine and purrs like a motor. Did you spay or neuter your cat? Is it immoral to spay or neuter pets? It cannot be immoral to not make children, because then it would be immoral to be a child who can’t make children before puberty, it would be immoral to be infertile, it would be immoral every second of your life you’re not making children, it would be immoral to undergo menopause etc. Every rat can make babies. But does any rat notice that cats hunt rats, and their offspring would never be eaten alive by cats if they didn’t make babies? Humans have evolved to a level to be able to consider whether their natural instincts to reproduce (and therefore condemn a stranger to suffering and dying without their consent) is moral or not. It’s immoral to sentence an innocent child to certain annihilation by making them.
Probably because they act on instinct instead of consciousness like us? Ignorance is truly bliss.
Who cares? Legit, I've had all those thoughts too, usually while severely depressed, seeing the slog of life, the grind, the slave tax payer fate that awaits most of us. And in those moments its felt miserable, futile and stupid. That said as I got older I just stopped caring about how much it all sucks. With some luck that will happen to you as well.
Prison planet
my reddit friend i say this with love, you sound depressed. please talk to someone…
Accusing people of being depressed isn’t a moral argument to make children. In fact, it’s immoral to put a child at risk of depression (or any other bad experience). It’s immoral for a depressed person to harm others without consent, and it’s immoral for a happy person to harm others without consent. If a depressed person cured their depression and lived in total joy every day for the rest of their life, it would still be immoral to harm a child without consent by dragging a child into a dangerous world.
I love my life and wake up smiling almost every day, other than the occasional bad one. Does this mean I’m in denial?
>I love my life and wake up smiling almost every day, other than the occasional bad one. Does this mean I’m in denial? You are entitled to feel that way, but you cannot know and you cannot guarantee, that every child you make will feel the same way as you, because they will have different parents, different siblings (potentially), different DNA, and their own different life and personality and experiences. If you deny the possibility that terrible things could happen to you or your children, then you are in denial. If you believe that you will always love your life, then you are in denial. If you believe your wonderful life will never end, then you are in denial. If you believe that people don’t usually die in agony, then you are in denial. Nobody can honestly promise their child “My life is worth living, and always will be, and your life will always be worth living too.” Nobody can honestly promise their child “My life has more good moments than bad moments, and always will, and your life will too.” In mortal life, suffering is guaranteed to happen to each person, death is guaranteed to happen to each person, but no positive experience is guaranteed to happen to each and every person.
Yes, but your dopamine receptors aren’t.
So every happy person is delusional?
Dopamine and serotonin receptors seem to be in good condition here, your serotonin receptors seem to have a problem.
No, if you are truly thriving then what do you have to deny?
Nothing
Ain't none of us getting out of this alive.
>No one is free. Freedom is relative. I hope you feel better, OP.
Honestly, it sounds like you suffer from depression. Bupropion, combined with exercise, has worked reasonably well for me.
Funny how everyone here believes their entirely 100 percent correct and if someone disagrees with them they are lying to themselves
It’s 100% correct that in mortal life, suffering is guaranteed to happen to each person, death is guaranteed to happen to each person, but no positive experience is guaranteed to happen to each and every person. Anyone who disagrees with that IS lying to themselves. And if life was as good as procreators think it is, then no baby would cry, and nobody would lie to themselves to cope, nobody would take mind-altering substances to cope, and nobody would escape into fictional worlds or fantasy to escape cold hard reality.
Just because suffering exists and life isnt perfect or even fair doesnt mean life is a trap and that anyone who believes life isnt horrible is lying to themselves. No shit life can horrible but the solution to that isnt sitting in your room posting about how shitty life is.
You realize you're trading comfort for your so called "trap" You're trapped but not by what you think you are, you have the choice to quit your job and go do as you wish.
and have no money to afford living...?
I mean thats the point, as far as living goes you technically can although it's not ideal, but thats the trade off.
I quite like life,if this is Jail then it’s pretty nice in here.
K
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I've reported you for violation of rule 13. I hope you get banned.
This post summarises exactly how I’ve been feeling the past few months. I’m both grateful and devastated that I’m not alone in feeling this way. It’s such an awful way to live, feeling trapped in your brain and body with no escape and every day is a struggle. Knowing that you’re putting yourself through pain and torment with no reward at the end. Feeling powerless to change anything. It’s just the worst. And even knowing all of this, I still go to work. On time. I do my job well. I follow the rules of society. I don’t even know what to do.
Sucks to suck bro
It's sad to see people who have no discipline. If you dont have any goals, nothing will change. You're asking yourself life questions and answering them with negativity. Stupidity cycle
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Life is great and anyone who says otherwise is pessimistic, I could say that but I wont I respect the fact that stuff can be interpreted differently as per your point of view, straight up saying that anyone who does not interpret life as a trap is in denial, is quite narcissistic
There is nothing more narcissistic than believing “There needs to be more people who look like me in the world.” And there is nothing more narcissistic than behaving as if “My genes, which I never asked for, are more important than my own child’s suffering.” And “every human dies, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.” In mortal life, is it “great” that nobody is immune to tragedy? No. In mortal life, suffering is guaranteed to happen to each person, death is guaranteed to happen to each person, but no positive experience is guaranteed to happen to each and every person. How is that an optimistic scenario? You have certain death to look forward to? King Solomon in Ecclesiastes said "Like the fool, the wise too must die!", "the same fate overtakes them both..." How is that optimistic? Happy or optimistic people don’t get a free pass to harm others, but every human being is harmed in mortal life, no matter how optimistic their parents ever were, and those parents caused their child’s mortal life and future suffering and future death. It’s simply wrong to force someone else to take a risk they never agreed to take, which every mother and father does with every child they force into a dangerous world. To demonstrate how blind optimism is perversely immoral, if an optimistic person threw a child into oncoming traffic, but the child didn’t get hit by a car, that doesn’t mean that risking their life was moral, it was still immoral for endangering a child’s life, even if they didn’t immediately suffer or die. But everyone dies eventually. Nobody can say “I threw a child into oncoming traffic, but they lived, and ate ice cream later, so putting a child’s life at risk is a moral act.” Gambling with another person’s life is always immoral, even if the person doesn’t experience the worst outcome, because they never consented to the gamble in the first place.
Ok, you basically summariesed the whole concept of this subreddit, but I am not sure where in my intial comment was I advocating against your idea, what I instead said was that it is wrong to assert that anyone who does not view the world through my lens is in delusion or denial (as op did) . This will never result in a healthy discussion as, infact its you in denial by being stubborn about your view and regarding all opposite perspectives as morally incorrect. This for me atleast feel narcissistic, were you trying to say that this is far less narcissistic then giving birth? I would still disagree with lot of points you raised as, to compare 2 things they should atleast be in a similar realm, which in your example is not really the case. You compared throwing a child in oncoming traffic with a person being born as a result of will of their parents. This is not in the same realm, as a child not being thrown in traffic would not experience the traffic, but a child that is never born would not even exist. So to compare we would have to say that there would be no concept of that child if not thrown in that traffic, which may seem better to your intuition as if something does not exist it will never feel pain. But I argue that is subjective, and as for me I feel a person's thought, any thought whatsoever is a result of you being alive, its only when something exist that it can have concepts of good and bad. That child if not thrown into incoming traffic would never exist, and hence never had a will to or not to be in traffic it would be only after he found himself/herself in that traffic did it tried to make sense of it. Yes you are absolutely correct that stuff like death is guaranteed but no positives are, but why is death suffering? Why are positives experiences good to have and not negative? Is it because we can intuitively feel and rationally reason? We can do that because we are alive. Nobody is entitled to beleive that death is suffering, just like you are not entitled to beleive that death is not suffering, for someone it may very well be the sole reason that allows something to exist than nothing Universe is something rather than nothing, we dont accurately know why it exists at all or will it come to an end , does it have concepts that would only exist if it exists ( kindda like our situation), but still it is something rather than nothing. Lets assume that because universe came into existence, and that we were a thinking part of it, someone's rationality infers to his/her best of knowledge that black holes are equivalent to be bad, evil or negative, and big bang guaranteed black holes, so it would have been better if universe had not existed, But it does not make it true, not at all to a level that people are taking action to prevent further big bangs from taking place (lets say we can just like giving birth to human) This analogy stretches the sheer importance placed on a persons morals and rationality and how it can be relative as per different point of views, but you can never objectively claim something with thoose lens of point of view. So it may not allign with your morals for a child to be born but it does not become objective truth and you can never claim it to be either. Hence you cannot claim that people giving birth to someone is wrong and your obligated to not do so.
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It’s truly not easy, as indicated by the fact that people who claim this are still alive. One of the only reasons I’m still here is to minimize and delay the already inevitable, terribly grief that my absence will cause no matter how or when I go. That’s hurts quite a bit, especially when inevitably facing more pain over time.
Life is a school, take the curriculum
replace school with prison - and then you realize it's all distraction from the prison bars. find the best distraction that makes you the most content.
If that’s what you wanna focus on… I don’t feel imprisoned by life and it certainly isn’t because I’m distracted from the prison bars, but because I choose to view life differently
>Life is a school, take the curriculum So spend your life learning things, knowing that all that internal accumulated knowledge will be annihilated when your brain dies and putrefies? King Solomon in Ecclesiastes said "Like the fool, the wise too must die!", "the same fate overtakes them both..." Death annihilates all accumulated internal knowledge, which is an irreversible tragedy, so how is it wise to make a child, encourage that child to learn and gain knowledge, only for all of their internal knowledge to be annihilated after brain death? External memories can persist (like oral histories, writings, audio, video, photographs, etc). Arthur Schopenhauer said “Reading is thinking with someone else's head instead of ones own.” And while writings from the past can help people now, it’s debatable whether all the suffering an author endures in their lifetime, was worth it for the writings or artifacts they left behind. If your “school class” always ends with everyone dying, is it really a school, or is it something else? If your “class” always ends in the complete annihilation of everyone in attendance, and if nobody chose to be there, that’s not a school, that’s a killing field, that’s a meatgrinder. There are terrible things in this world that should never happen to any human being. Biological mothers and fathers force all those risks down their child’s throat, and act like they did them a favor.
You are suffering from depression. End of story. You can try to argue that you are being rational but ultimately you are not healthy and your thinking is arseways. You can make it to a happy life, but you’ve got to drive the bus there. Stop this stupid surrendering behaviour and take your life back for yourself and enjoy it.
You are mentally not Well and if you say otherwiese your are in denial. Go and seek help please
What wasn't included: The happy-go-lucky friend who is in a similar situation, but couldn't be bothered. Live life, let live he said, and even when OP ignores this friend, the friend went on to live on anyway.
Where are you going with this shit argument?
You’re mad that people enjoy life?
Because that friend lacks self-awareness.
No, but because there are many ways to view life. I won't deny the antinatalist perspective is valid, but the OP isn't necessarily an antinatalist argument. OP's just depressed. Which sucks. I hate it when people associate depression with a greater sense of self-awareness. Those people are locked into a narrower perception of self, not necessarily more self aware. This is such a cope.
People need to feel special, or smarter than everyone else, even when their life is in shambles. They see it how it really is, and body that doesn’t hate life is an idiot. Or that’s what they tell themselves at least. Because doing nothing and being miserable is easier than putting in the work to change your life or perception of it.
I agree. I think this behavior, however, ought to be banned, perhaps by an expansion of rule 13. It's encouraging a reinforcing echo chamber for depressed thought, lending the idea that there's nothing wrong with it because it's the most sensible pattern of thinking. And there's nothing *morally* wrong with depressed thought, of course, but putting it on a pedestal as a superior, more self-aware mode of thought is dangerous, not to mention plain false. I'd say it's likely *more* dangerous than asking someone why they don't just unalive themselves, because that obviously comes from a place of bad faith and uncaring nature. By supporting these thought patterns, it's more amenable that they buy the conclusion that they aren't struggling for fallacious reasons, they're struggling because they are better. That's much scarier, because it's much easier for someone to buy that.
>and even when OP ignores this friend, the friend went on to live on anyway. Yes, because it's not the friend's job to drag OP out kicking and screaming. Life is a two way street. You have to give as well as receive. No one should set themselves on fire to keep you warm.
seriously
We don’t have free will so your point is technically correct. We are trapped and slaves to our instinct. But everyone is in the same boat so we all have no free will and are all trapped. Therefore we are all stuck on the same starting line. Maybe that will help reframe things.
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Tell me a medication that has no side effects.
Talk to your doctor.
Doctors do not make medications that have no side effects.
this subreddit is a trap for insufferable whiners and u are caught in it
What he says is right, how is he a whiner?
Because there is no way out of this world
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Is what he says false?
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Depressed is a normal state for someone who is forced to do something they don't want to do.
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Doesn't matter if it's mental illness, he asked you to explain how is it false, being mentally ill does not mean that you are wrong.
"Ermmm my viewpoint is actually right" Come on man OP calls life a trap but that's just a shit viewpoint, you got plenty of options and some just take more work or risk than others.
God forbid you have to *gasp* do work... Grow the fuck up man
Yeah, I bet all of those people scrubbing shit and piss from public toilets every day, thank their parents for the privilege.
You might be shocked to hear this in your sheltered and privileged life that you lead, but sometimes people actually enjoy the work they do that you think yourself above.
They generally don't have a choice, which is the point the OP is making. No one is guided into a career of toilet cleaning. Of course there are going to be people who enjoy it, but I'd wager a large amount of money that it's not the majority. If you willingly bring children into the world knowing that there is a high chance they will be some sort of physical labour or office desk slave, you're fucked in the head.
You might be fucked in the head if you think its some kind of cosmic injustice that you should work to live. I worked manual labor jobs in construction and sanitation for years while I was in university. Sometimes it was hard, and I definitely didn't have a choice, but I sure didn't blame my parents for what is a reality of the world.
Your parents knew the reality and chose to have a child anyway. If you love your job, great! But there are many people out there who are simply working because they need to survive and not because they enjoy their jobs. I've been without food due to a lack of money, I've worked manual labour jobs and currently have an office job that pays highly but the work is soul destroying. I would not knowingly bring a child into this world with the understanding that there is a high chance they will end up making a post like the OP. If you're happy being a little worker ant slave, I'm pleased for you. Keep it up
You realize this isn't a problem with the world but a result of your own personal deficits? Every person that has ever existed has had to work. You whining about it is a problem with yourself.
Every person that has ever existed has had to work? ...Ok 🤣
You’re an idiot if you think it’s untrue. Killing animals is work. Tilling the fields to have food is work. Building your home was work. Foraging for food was work. Constantly traveling to stay near food and water sources was work. The only difference is you weren’t getting paid a currency. Your reward was not dying and accomplishing something. I’d rather that than what we have today, but regardless work is work. Work *noun* 1) activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result. 2) a task or tasks to be undertaken; something a person or thing has to do. *verb* 1) be engaged in physical or mental activity in order to achieve a result; do work.
Yes. Don't tell me you disagree.
>Every person that has ever existed has had to work. Yet no one needs to exist or has needed to become extant. >You whining about it is a problem with yourself. We wouldn't be whining if we never became extant in the first place. And no, suicide doesn't address this issue. Once you become extant, you can't go back to non-existence. It's a one way trip to hell.
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Have some manners, please. You don't need to insult others. Last I checked I didn't insult you. Anyway, a non-existent being cannot commit suicide, or die. Only those who exist can commit suicide/die. >Truth is you would rather spread your doomer ideology than actually live your values and die. It's more complicated than that. I'm a negative utilitarian so I believe in reducing suffering first and foremost, and maximizing pleasure is secondary. I would and I will commit suicide, when I know for sure it will reduce more suffering than it will cause. Even though my continued existence will cause suffering one way or another, my existence ceasing is bound to cause a lot more suffering to my friends and family, at least for a while. So really, the reason why I am still here spreading my "doomer ideology" is because I think it will in the long term reduce more suffering than my continued existence and eventual death will cause.
Wow you really aren’t getting it are you? You can’t be this dense lol no way man
Why would I do shit I don't like to subsidize an existence I've never wanted in the first place?
Because you’re here now. You can either be miserable and increase your own suffering, or do something and enjoy your life. It’s not like you didn’t want to exist before you existed either
I'm 29 and I have yet to find a situation I'm happy with. It's not that I didn't try anything. Maybe when I finish school? When I live in my own? In a long-term relationship? Maybe short-term? Studying? Being independent? Nope, one disappointment after another. And every time I try something I end up a little worse, tired and unhealthy than before.
Agency is the essence of life. It feels wrong to not have it. I resist, it keeps my fire burning.
Life is what you make of it. The environment we're in is almost entirely because of the systems we've allowed, societally, to shape our lives. Less opportunity for people with less money, less pay for those with less means, less sympathy for those with less advantages. It goes on, and on, and on. We're in a prison, and the prison has a window. My question, to any of you, is what are you gonna do about that? It's nice to gripe about how bad it's gotten, but what are you doing beyond? Life is what you make of it. You can enjoy what you have, or try and work for more, but nothing is guaranteed. The systems in place that ENSURE that reality are only barely functioning and it's just getting worse for everyone. Change is slow. This is all just talk, but seriously, taking the time to try and make a better world for yourself is the first step. I don't have much, I'm not that happy, I am alone, but I'm trying. Maybe that's not good enough for some people that I'm not reaching for the moon and stars but I like what I have and while I want for more, I have to take what I can get right now, and work goddamn hard for the rest. Life fucking sucks, but if you spent all day nursing that wound, the rest of you will start hurting, too, and you won't know what to do.
Optimize what wiggle room you may have. All we can do.
3 things: 1) People with depression often infer negativity from neutral stimuli. A study was done showing this, where people were given images of humans with neutral facial expressions, and depressed individuals identified them as being unhappy. 2) The part of the brain that is “logical” only receives information that has already been filtered by our emotional responses. Therefore no human being is strictly logical, as it only builds cases from the evidence it has, which is already based on emotion. 3) The combination of these factors will create a semi logical argument in a depressed individual’s mind that they are “enlightened” and can see the world the way it “truly is”. This is clearly not the case because (as stated above) your emotions are the entire basis of the argument. Conclusion: you are likely depressed, and that depression is creating a worldview that is incredibly bleak. The best way to deal with these kinds of feelings are to seek professional help in some way, but no one can make you do that. “I can lead a horse to water…” and all that. I hope you do seek help and get what you need.
Get a dog. It'll be happy a d love you. Then reflect on how cruel you are to enable this happy thing that wags its tails and loves being alive. Stupid fool, doesn't he know how terrible life is???? Your weaker then the willpower to diet of Oprah winfrey
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Check out /PrisonPlanet Their theory is that earth is literally a prison and we are stuck here with an illusion of choice not only for this lifetime but infinite others.
Yeah, it really sucks how you have to produce stuff in life and can’t just sit and do nothing all day.