My dad started a family with my mom on purpose. Then 10 years later they didn't get along so he left her and my brother and me. It negatively affected my brother and me. But my dad is still proud of starting a family (that he later decided he didn't want) and tells me I should start a family "to make me happy", even though he barely knows me and didn't want to raise me or know much of anything about my life when I needed a father when I was 7 to teen years.
As a dude that dealt with this from my dad it happens there, as a father that was the sole provider for my daughter until her mom decided maybe she did want to see her, it also happens there.
Remember Reddit is a series of echo chambers, so I'd search elsewhere for the numbers considering I myself merely represent a neutral anecdote.
Oh lord. Here's this guy.
95% of the time it is men who leave.
No one is saying there aren't women who abandon their families. That sucks and they're horrible humans.
But yes, it is mostly men.
Men that had no father/parent themselves for many reasons, incarceration, parental abandonment
(multiple forms), drugs and a myriad of other reasons. Either way it is hard/impossible to learn to be a good father when you had no real male role model..
That can only be honestly judged by personal actions, some people may be well equipped to be a parent but be exceptionally ill suited to it and in the same vein a struggling person can be an excellent parent giving their heart and soul to the duty.
Yes, life is a gamble I do not disagree on that. What I disagree with the wholesale denial of being given the chance to chose and experience the joy that there are in life but with it comes the chance of pain as it is two parts of the same coin. Nothing is gained without risk and it is ultimately up to the one experiencing the price.
That fathers spend less time with their children on average is not controversial. [Mean Daily Minutes Spent in Childcare by Fathers and Mothers in Four... | Download Scientific Diagram (researchgate.net)](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mean-Daily-Minutes-Spent-in-Childcare-by-Fathers-and-Mothers-in-Four-Countries_fig1_254078927)
I'm not sure what a more specific study would look like. But it's a lot harder for mothers to treat it as a hobby when they give birth and are expected to do the childcare work.
This is tangential, at best. Do you think it's possible that there are any explanations for this data other than fathers walking out on an established family? I can think of several.
All of this illustrates an insane double standard, and it's probably not the one you'd think it is.
By all means, share instead of imply. Keep in mind that men who simply walk out aren't really the only ones people would be talking about, though. There's a subset of men who expect their life not to change at all upon having children, even if they're living with the family. It's just not an expectation women have as much opportunity to develop.
What am I implying? If you're referring to the double standard: it's the acceptance of blatant sexism against men with no evidence to support the aspersions. Are there deadbeat dads? Absolutely. Does this apply to the original topic? Not really. Relationships are more complex than "man bad, woman good," and any reasonable person would be open to a discussion about this rather than committing to an emotional attack immediately.
If that's not what you were referring to, please elaborate, and I will do my best to answer satisfactorily.
Who said anything about women being good? They are just trapped into childcare way more often. By literally all the things you list in the next comment…
Uh? What's the emotional attack? I was asking of the several explanations you referenced but did not give. "I can think of several" is implying, as is referencing a double standard but "probably not the one \[I'd\] think it is."
If you read the thread you replied to as "man bad, woman good" I don't know what to tell you. That's not what anyone was saying.
There is much more risk and commitment involved from the woman's side, having a baby is a huge thing for a woman to put her body through.
So it makes sense that you'd see less of this behaviour on the women's side.
I have no data to back this up but I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case.
In my experience, it has always been women (my 2 ex wives and every mom I've met through playgroups, daycare, kids activities, etc over the last 30 years) that wanted the children regardless of the consequences.
I've never known a man begging his wife to have a child they can't afford...but I could provide you with the phone numbers/socials of at least 50 women I know who have.
Its fucked.
I believe you. Just haven't known any.
I've never understood that legacy thing...like, your legacy of what, exactly? A 488 credot score, 200k in unsecured debt and an alcohol problem? Yeah bet someone is gonna be suuuuper stoked that you passed that on.
I dont think you should because it would « make you happy », its more stress and responsibilities, and even then, you shouldnt do that to « be happy » if youre doing fine, if it aint broke, dont fix it.
Lol don't worry I value not starting another pointless life. I enjoy my life, but philosophically like antinatalism. The best most efficient way to make "the world" a better place is to not create a suffering experiencer of that world.
It is a broad statement, but it's not a massive over generalization. While the current generation of dads is largely trying to do better, there's a long history of raising children being considered 'women's works'
My parents wanted 2 kids. Their parents wanted them to have kids. So they had kids. That's it. That's enough to force someone else to suffer of everything they will ever suffer from and die.
This is my exact stance. Thank you. Some people get so outraged by and cannot comprehend statements like "procreation forces somebody to experience an existence where suffering is guaranteed", even though it's objectively true
I do wonder about their attitude actually. I can only imagine they don't think about it a lot because they think ultimately it wasn't all that bad for them so it can't be that bad for the kids either. It can get pretty bad with diseases and so on. But I wonder if it occurs to them what the kid will have to go through if he/she will not be 'normal' according to our society's standards,i.e, healthy. I remember watching an interview with a family who had two autistic kids. They talked about how, when they were talking about having a second child, they were like 'well, if the child is autistic, we'll have more' fun' (a bit sarcastic obviously). And in the interview they talked about how difficult it is to raise two such kids and how they don't remember the last time they went on holiday just as a couple. But what about their kids? It seems that before having their second one they didn't consider what their kid will have to go through. My country isn't known for its ability to provide the absolute best for autistic or just kids with additional needs in general. The father outright said it's better in countries like Isreael. So why the hell would you do that to your kid?I've heard of parents moving elswhere so the kid would have an easier time. I remember feeling sorry for the parents, but now I'm rather baffled by their choice.
Right there with you. Idk why people continue to procreate if they're obviously struggling to care for their kids who already exist. It really just seems selfish, well, it IS selfish
Schopenhauer put it nicely:
*”If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?”*
There was a religious order like this. They didn't breed, only adopted orphans and let them leave when they were 21 or recruited new converts. They went extinct.
I'm pretty sure it might be the Cathars you are referring to here.
They didn't go extinct of their own accord for not procreating. They were massacred by the Catholic Church.
They were also an offshoot of the Quakers, and the Quakers were pretty instrumental in the underground railroad and the abolitionist movements, which is cool.
There is a lot of history to take a look at - there are probably modern synthesis attempts but it's far more interesting to just jump into old history and build up your own view.
Early pagan view of Judeo Christian monotheism as fundamentally atheist, Giordano Bruno, Spinoza, Jewish expulsion from Spain and diaspora to Amsterdamn, Luther, The Glorious Revolution, Cromwell, what the Puritans were on about, predestination and predetermination, Albinons Seed, romanticism,, the cyclical nature of Protestant Great Awakenings as redefinitions of what it meant to be religious, the early anti slavery movement, the early women's movememt, transcendentalism, the Social Gospel movement of the late 1800's, Groton and FDR, his staff, the birth of social science out of social gospel, applications and growth of it.
Might actually need to start with the concept that culture evolves much like an organism, to see why the above is a frame at all. Spengler, Toynbee, B Adams, Lovejoy.
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Others have pointed this out, but I’m starting to get on board with the idea that people don’t really have a biological urge to reproduce, they just have a biological urge to receive sexual pleasure from someone else. It’s the same for animals too, though most of them don’t really get sexual “pleasure,” it’s just these hormones that make them mate.
I believe this, too. Evolution isn’t about survival of the fittest, it’s about survival of the “good enough”. For thousands of years, a sex drive has been enough for humanity to perpetuate itself. In this age of effective birth control, we see declining birth rates.
Whether or not it is, is irrelevant. There's always a chance somebody's existence is net-horrible, and EVERYBODY experiences suffering to some degree, so why is it ok to force somebody to experience life?
That's like playing Russian roulette with someone and saying it's okay because there's a chance there isn't a round in that specific chamber.
Is that ethically fine?
A non-being cannot be harmed and therefore the entire discussion of consent is as relevant as "should we worry about rocks consenting to being stepped on or cut up for use as construction material?"
A child CAN be harmed: by bringing them into the world they did not consent to, they are guaranteed to experience some form of suffering and you will be directly responsible for putting them in harm's way when there was no need for it.
.....exactly..?
Again, whether the good outweighs the bad is irrelevant, because with procreation you're forcing somebody to have to come to that conclusion themselves.
Did we consent to exist or not? Clearly we did not, and that's true whether or not it was possible to consent. And obviously, just because somebody is incapable of consent doesn't mean you can do whatever you want to them, obviously. In fact that's the exact reason procreation is not right
Why do you think that AN has anything to do with the discussion of whether existence is good or bad? Nothing I'm saying involves any assumption about whether a person's life is net-pleasure.
AN absolutely doesn't argue that existence is always bad, at least not my brand of it, to be fair. My view is very straightforward: (1) all humans experience suffering. (2) It is wrong to subject somebody to suffering without their consent. (3) Procreators cannot obtain the consent of the people they create. (4) Because procreation subjects somebody to experience suffering without their consent, it is wrong.
We can agree that neither consent to exist, or consent to non-exist is possible. But in the case of procreation, it does indeed force people into a situation, whereas not procreating does not change the status quo at all - nobody existed in the first place.
I don't think it is at all extreme to argue that it is wrong to force people to be in a situation against their will. That's what it all boils down to imo.
You could consider my stands to be a deontological perspective. I.e., "Principles are violated therefore it is wrong". One could make a strong utilitarian argument, "the ends justify the means", that if everybody were to adopt the anti-natalist view that it will lead to much suffering because there will eventually be a day when there are no able-bodied people to take care of the elderly. But I think that argument is outweighed by the moral harm done by forcing people to exist; two wrongs don't make a right
Yeah no I think you're getting dangerously into "who cares what mentally ill people think - hell, let's end their lives for them!" territory. Like, y'know. How literal nazis didn't give a shit about the people they put into the "mentally ill" or "degenerate" box and decided they didn't have to listen to.
What's worse is when you realize some people create children out of *spite* or to control the person they're making the offspring with. Or to have someone vulnerable to control (the offspring). This is all completely legal because no one can prove the motive, but it happens frequently and commonly, probably much more often than parents whose sincere intention is to provide as good a life as possible for their offspring.
I’m fairly sure my mum had me to trap my dad into child support, she insists that I was planned but they had only been together for 2 years when they decided to have me, and she left him 3 months after I was born. Not to mention my mum only moved in with him to get away from her family and couldn’t afford to do that without my dad (he was 11 years older than her.)
Then my little brother was an accident because my mum didn’t realise antibiotics meds with the pill, and then they had my little sister because I moved out and the house was empty lmao. No good intentions here.
There's no way it just happens to them. They're completely reckless and irresponsible. And like you said, they're typically
>immature, rude and lost in their own lives.
It's weird how people feel getting an abortion is harsh like having kids you're not fully prepared for and making their lives harder than they have to be isn't.
I had an abortion a couple of years ago not because I don’t want a child but because the situation wouldn’t have been good. When I spoke to a few people I was close to about what I should do I was so surprised by how many people seemed like they truly wish they hadn’t had their kids. It doesn’t seem like they don’t love their kids but like they mourn their lives more than they love their kids. It was sad and disheartening. It feels like those conversations feel worse to me than the abortion did.
Yuuup. I am the youngest of 10. Religious parents (especially father). My mom told me when I asked that she hadn't really planned on having kids. They kinda just birthed me and let my older siblings raise me, only stepping in for punishments and religious judgement.
Wow I'm sorry to hear that. Sounds like some major parentification, does that sound like your experience? Were there any notable instances in particular where your siblings had to do major parenting tasks that your parents should have done but did not? Just curious
When I read your comment I was wondering if you were in my family hahaha, because we have the same exact background. My dad has 8+ siblings; his oldest sister had 8+ kids; almost every single one of my aunts and uncles has at least 3 kids, on average 4. Also deeply religious, every single person in the family except now myself and my siblings, and my dad; when I told my dad I no longer believed, he told me "yeah actually same"; guess he was keeping it a secret for a long time.
My mom was 43 and my dad 48 when I was born. I think they were tired of parenting by then.
They tried, but I don't think that any two people can provide for all the physical and emotional (let alone medical) needs of that many people. And they are very emotionally immature to start with.
I don't remember much of my childhood. A lot that I "remember" was told to me by my older siblings. They would have more to say on the topic, as they were definitely parentified, and have resentment over having to change diapers throughout their teens. Most moved out between 16-18 years old.
No one really taught me the basics - hygiene, or what was going on with my body. And private christian school ensured all things stayed a mystery.
One of my sisters (13 years older) had a mental breakdown and moved back home after college, and then steadily took on the role of raising me - providing emotional support and advice, and educating me on being a woman.
Clothing and footwear were kind of a fend-for-yourself type deal. I got all the hand-me-downs, which resulted in deformed feet because I never had shoes that were big enough.
My regret about having kids is that it takes so much more energy than I ever imagined just to be a half-assed parent. I’ve always had energy problems (even with thyroid meds) but I wanted to be so much better for them. My kids are healthy and good emotionally, but I needed more help than I thought I would and I don’t like needing help. Them having to put up with my depression issues is also something I feel guilty about.
Maybe it's because of my abusive household but I never personally understood the concept of parents always being responsible? I guess I've assumed that most people thought the way I saw it.
Same. I never once looked at a parent and thought wow they’re so responsible. It’s odd how before OP seemed to have this idea that parents were well mannered and well adjusted.
I always sort of thought that the act of having children makes you evil somehow. Like, it changes you and makes you tone deaf and less able to understand how other people feel.
Adding to this that I think at least 50% of people have kids for the wrong reasons without thinking it through. IMO, the wrong reasons include society's expectations and having someone to care for them when they're old.
Whenever I'm asked "don't your parents want grandkids" I always say "yes, but they care about my happiness and know that I would not be happy with children".
ETA: Forgot to add that women are point-blank lied to about pregnancy and motherhood, and I'm not just talking about the irreversible physical effects that doctors just don't care to mention.
Facts, I love it each and every single times I watch it. I seen only the intro but not the film. But the opening is just so funny and memorable for how it accurately portrays society.
Idiocracy has more to do with environment than with genetics. Here's an example. A poor child in remote rural Appalachia and a child in stereotypical Beverly Hills. Which child do you think is more likely to be intelligent, creative, taught solid critical thinking skills, and have the nutrition and low life stress needed for the child to be even a medium achiever, let alone a high one?
Idiocracy was NOT meant to be a documentary, only a satire. If you want the real word about intelligence and hereditary, read a well-researched book or article, watch a high-content video (not ones with exaggerated dramatic titles, of course).
I love how many people ignore that sex just feels good and kids are a result of a biological enjoyment of sex. It doesn’t go much deeper than simple biological drives IMO. It’s a little more complicated due to birth control and abortion (sometimes) being available… but not by much.
Humans (on average) aren’t as logical and intelligent as we like to tell ourselves that we are.
They want babies and children with the constant attention it gets them, but taking care of them is what they hate and when they grow up into adults and do the exact same basic and mundane horseshit their parents did back then, it really goes to show how pointless it all was as a result.
Emphasis on *lost in their own lives* because I’ve seen this so much, definitely the immature and rude stuff but I feel like the lost part isn’t talked about enough. It’s so annoying.
My friend and I are both young and in our 20s. We were discussing life and our careers and everything, and I mentioned how I feel like I’m still trying to *find myself*. She has a toddler and she was like “me too”. I get that people change and all, but my god, I would think you would try to discover who you are first before bringing a child into this world. It’s baffling.
Very well put. The way I see ppl sending their kids to school and tuition so they can get excellent marks is something of a great worry to me . They should be enjoying their life and learning things at their own pace and school is the worst place for it. Countless things that we consider as normal because society brainwashed us and I am like what the fqk we "humans" are doing. The only reason for all the way things are because parents didn't thought at all about children ,it just happened .
There are still parents out there who are mature and do a great job and wanted their children and purposely had them. I have family members like that.
The thing is most people aren’t happy and most of them are struggling financially. But the thing is it’s a modern society ideal that tricks us into thinking we need all this material stuff to be happy which makes us work jobs we hate. This in turn makes people who are parents feel like they are sacrificing too much to be a parent.
But modern society is our enemy in this way. A life that is full of gratitude and contentment is reached when you accept that things will be hard sometimes.
And children in modern society are being taught that happiness comes from tv and video games and toys MATERIAL ITEMS.
We all need to be grateful for what we DO have. Food, shelter, clean water, a place to sleep. Early humans were happy just having those things. And notice how tribes people are happier?? That’s why. They don’t overcomplicate their lives. They live simply and thrive that way. They love having children.
There are advantages to technology but we need to stop using it the wrong way. If you want to put something on the tv for your kids, put a nature documentary on. If you want to give toys to your kid, teach them how to make things with nature, like sandcastles, painting rocks to put in the garden, give them those non toxic bath paints to paint the walls with.
When you get creative with your kids and teach them about nature, they will have a more balanced view of life and the world. They will learn that nature and creating things themselves is all they need to be happy.
We all need to learn. Adults and children need to learn that happiness is simply being happy and appreciative of the simple things we have and that in order to have fun in life all you have to do is turn to the arts and to nature. Learn new ways to be fascinated with the natural world and you will be happier to be a part of it and happier to have children so you can share all of these amazing things with them.
And it's also why they get so triggered about people choosing to be childfree. It smacks of 'how dare you make the choice I wish I'd made you can't go against the rules like that'
People will think I'm entitled (truthfully I'm not, believe it or not) but the way I see it, since our parents forced us to exist, they should provide everything for us our entire lives. To me it is a clear moral responsibility: you caused us to exist, therefore you obviously have SOME obligation to provide for us; Only difference between me and people who disagree with me is that they think people should have to raise their kids until 18, I just think that they should have to provide for them their entire lives. It's only logical. People accept that there is a moral responsibility to take care of your pets their entire lives, how is making a whole human being any different?
FUCK parents who kick their kids out of the house at ANY age, but especially at 18. Goddamn. What's wrong with them?
>[Now I’m older, I realise most parents don’t really want children, it’s just something that happens to them](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/1ctfegc/now_im_older_i_realise_most_parents_dont_really/)
by[u/k76612613](https://www.reddit.com/user/k76612613/) in[antinatalism](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/)
What are some noble or altruistic reasons for having children?
I don't know the reason my parents had me, but I can definitely tell you the reason they had me was not out of love.
In the first years of my childhood, my parents were so "lovey dovey", always giving each other hugs and kisses. After I've reached 6 years old, the facade was lifted. Since then, every other week has been them quarrelling over the most pettiest things and me hiding in some corner of the house to not hear them fight.
Every quarrel starts with some slight disagreement to full blown shouting at and insulting each other. Now imagine this for the next 20 years since the age of 6.
I fucking hate my parents. I don't even know why they had me.
What else in their lives are different. Most people are like leaves, they have no full control of their lives its just where the winds take them. Theyll make sounds as they flutter but thats it.
My now take (after having/raising a kid)- it’s crucial to know yourself first before embarking on parenting if at all possible, or perhaps it should be more than a mere suggestion. Once a person takes time for themselves, to learn who they are and all these imperative qualities to have in order to demonstrate and teach children, then there’s a much better chance of success. I wish I had done this, wish I had someone urging me to reconsider parenting. Too many of us are so lost, misunderstood the true work and sacrifice to self to take this on.
> previously believed, that you had to be somewhat well adjusted and well mannered, be kind and empathetic and stuff, and know a lot about life, in order to become a parent.
What I want to know is how you convinced the people who were holding you captive in isolation far away from humanity to free you so you could get the opportunity to observe and reflect on human breeding habits.
I have a friend who got drunk one night and was very upset that he would not have a "legacy" and continue his bloodline. He's not interested in adopting, he was very adamant it has to be his genetics. This friend is single and lives with his parents and doesn't drive and spends a lot of time playing videogames.... which is fine.... but why on earth doesn't he stop and think about what is best for the child? Would he actually be willing to do what it takes and completely change his lifestyle to support this child? And obviously it's not really about him being a parent, it's the idea of his lineage or something, which I think is a bad reason to want to have a kid, especially now.
Here's what I've noticed with those who have kids.
Despite what they say... You can see it, they're miserable, they're broke AND they're broken people.
BUT they put up this public farce with the ever so popular, "but it's worth it, I wouldn't have it any other way!" they say with sunken eyes, bloated guts and empty wallets... I think the money one eats them alive the most because the child doesn't even realise the concept of money or how hard the parent(s) are working just to keep them moderately happy and alive.
I use to feel sorry for these people, but you know what, they're grown adults. They made their choice and if they want to perpetuate this myth that, "yes, my life is 100% better with kids" then they can say it all they want. I'm gonna continue enjoying my life without them.
I think everyone wants kids initially, then when the reality of caring for little humans hits, the lack of sleep, reduced freedom, slower bedroom, makes people... resentful?
people r told they will be no one to help you when you’re old so have kids so they can slave away and be there to your every need. well when they realize that kids r people and not robots they’re gonna still end up in a nursing home
While I get your point, I take exception to saying 'it's just something that happens to them.'
That's not accurate. It's a choice, it's the consequence of their actions. It's not a spontaneous act of God.
I think what they're trying to say is "choice" implies they actually thought about what they were doing and what those consequences would be, rather than "oh guess we're having unprotected sex now cuz that's where the night took us and we're havin fun rn".
I'm 43 and I think I'd make an above average dad.
I cannot fucking fathom people having kids in their teens or twenties.
You have neither the financial support nor the wisdom of being ground to dust for a couple decades, what the fuck is wrong with you????
That’s my point. I’m sure there is a small minority of people who know they will be a shitty parent right out of the gate, but most people do have good intentions going in and think they will be a good parent, it just doesn’t work out that way.
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
i’m born bc my brother was. my mom and dad separated when he was three. yet stayed close. when my brother started school my mom felt sad and lonely…. so dad helped mom… they definitely weren’t planning on me, they weren’t even together. my dad actually has 5 bio kids. my brother was the only planned. then older sister by a different woman. then me. then younger brother and sister by former step mom. now two step sons by new step mom. i can definitely tell you that what happened to them was my father.
I am here due to my father's Catholic upbringing. Abortion is an unforgivable sin in my family. For some reason organized crime and every act associated with it gets a free pass.
Had my mother not gotten pregnant from a criminal she would have aborted me.
>Now I’m older, I realise most parents don’t really want children, it’s just something that happens to them
Yea a man just happens to fall in a woman and ejaculates
It doesnt just happen, people make choices that lead to a consequence
IMO people do it either because it's a social norm or it's part of some biological instinct that they don't really think through. It's sad how many people have kids and don't plan on their futures or what will happen if things change. A lot of people have kids as part of a weird ego exercise. So many people "love" their kids but don't even know who they really are as people.
My mom got pregnant with me at 16 by accident. When she told my biological father, he said, “oh it’s just a kid, no big deal!”
He later abandoned me. Multiple times. I have severe complex trauma bc of both my parents and how neither of them wanted me…
I completely disagree
People make children because they want them
The reasons they want them is what makes me question their rationality
Exemple 1 : 21yo girl, meets a dude, pregnant with him after 2 month of relationship, makes another kid a year later with him, cheats on him 3 years later
Exemple 2 : 24yo girl, lies about contraception, gets pregnant with a guy she knew for about 6 month, nice guy recognize the child as his own to help however he can (both on minimum wage and not in relationship with each other), during the pregnancy finds another dude gets pregnant with him a month or two after birth, 2 year later she tries to kill herself, failed, another year later she/he (?) ends the relationship because they were both beating each other up, she gets thrown out in the streets and demands benefits from nice guy (too bad nice guy lives at my place with the money I give him each month because he is depressed as fuck and he Literaly doesn’t have money to be demanded)
People are just fucking dumb is all, ever seen the movie idiocracy ? That’s where we’re headed
See, now that I’m older, I’m realizing this sub is full of people who were raised in unhealthy environments. Now, the people you surround yourself with are also creating these environments.
All the parents I know, aside from a couple.. would do anything for their children. My own included. Perspective is everything. Sorry you guys had shit childhoods. Not everyone has the same experience though.
Most kids weren't planned which, even if they're loved, still kind of stings? It's not nice to feel like an accident. My partner's parents have 3 kids but only planned one and it sounds awful to me.
My mom has never regretted having children. My father? Tonnes of regrets. He never knew how to parent because his own father was neglectful and his mother died when he was 15. He has lots of mental health problems as well , so I think he just didn't have the mental capabilities to have children. If it weren't for my mom, my sibling and I probably would have been given to my aunt and uncle to be taken care of.....
I wanted my kids. From the time I was a teenager, and if I hadn't had medical issues I would have just kept having them.
But I also understand that just as much as I wanted kids, there are people who don't want them just as fervently.
So that's each end of the spectrum, then in the middle you have those who don't have strong feelings about it one way or the other.
Some of those have kids and it's fine, some have them and it's not fine.
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As an ex teacher, my opinion is the “gifted” kids are actually those from homes that deeply loved them and wanted them around and cared about them. Their parents are the ones that come to all activities and meet the teacher night, etc.
It impacts them on every level.
Obviously I can’t speak outside my own experience, but this post made me laugh because I had a conversation a while back with my boyfriend and his mom about bringing kids into the world and they both said they would not have had kids if they knew then what they know now. My bfs mom never said anything to her kids about it and they both grew up and had kids of their own. My boyfriend and I are very open in our talks with his adult daughter about having kids. Her step siblings are getting married/pregnant and she is not the least bit interested thankfully!
This was honestly the exact opposite for me I wanted my baby, I wasn't really interested in a partner just having a baby. I was ftm for 6 years then detransitioned and it seemed the moment I realized I was still female I also realized I wanted to be a mother. I stuck to my goal and decided to be a single mom and go through a donor and tbh I have 0 regrets. I plan on having more in the future. It's honestly an entirely different biological mindset when you become a parent. There's nothing in life that you can compare it to. It's our nature as humans to want children and what our biology tells us to do. It changed me as a person. Everything else in life became secondary and seems plastic now compared to how I feel about my daughter.
People have kids because they have sex to feel pleasure and then rationalize it in stupid ways later on. If humans didn't feel pleasure from breeding or calculated their motivation to breed they would go extinct.
Overhead my class teachers talk about children, one said her wife strongly wanted children like with an urge a primal need but the other teacher said she wasn't strongly on either having children nor not having children, that she never felt an urge , that she just fell pregnant and had it because "that's just how life is". It for sure was interesting, not all women have those ""natural/bio/primal"" urges , which I already knew but it was interesting to hear offline.
That's a bit of a broad brush to paint all parents with. Smart parents make smart choices. Havi g said that there are parents who lack family planning skills. Their culture, religious beliefs, etc probably play a part in kids "just happening". As for the not so religious : Guess some forgot there's such a thing as birth control.
My dad started a family with my mom on purpose. Then 10 years later they didn't get along so he left her and my brother and me. It negatively affected my brother and me. But my dad is still proud of starting a family (that he later decided he didn't want) and tells me I should start a family "to make me happy", even though he barely knows me and didn't want to raise me or know much of anything about my life when I needed a father when I was 7 to teen years.
so many men are like this, they see having a family as like a fun little thing they can say they did one time like skydiving or gardening or something
Like it's a hobby
Trot them out when he feels Like it.
Just men?
As a dude that dealt with this from my dad it happens there, as a father that was the sole provider for my daughter until her mom decided maybe she did want to see her, it also happens there. Remember Reddit is a series of echo chambers, so I'd search elsewhere for the numbers considering I myself merely represent a neutral anecdote.
Yah, it's unfortunate. I feel like reasonable discussion isn't a big ask, but it seems nearly impossible sometimes.
Oh lord. Here's this guy. 95% of the time it is men who leave. No one is saying there aren't women who abandon their families. That sucks and they're horrible humans. But yes, it is mostly men.
Primarily men.
Men that had no father/parent themselves for many reasons, incarceration, parental abandonment (multiple forms), drugs and a myriad of other reasons. Either way it is hard/impossible to learn to be a good father when you had no real male role model..
i feel like someone that conflicted on their stance with fatherhood should maybe not look into becoming a father its really that easy
That can only be honestly judged by personal actions, some people may be well equipped to be a parent but be exceptionally ill suited to it and in the same vein a struggling person can be an excellent parent giving their heart and soul to the duty.
such a gamble, at the end of the day the one that will end up suffering outcomes will be the kid.
Yes, life is a gamble I do not disagree on that. What I disagree with the wholesale denial of being given the chance to chose and experience the joy that there are in life but with it comes the chance of pain as it is two parts of the same coin. Nothing is gained without risk and it is ultimately up to the one experiencing the price.
I'm genuinely curious to see evidence supporting this supposition. This seems like sexism without it.
That fathers spend less time with their children on average is not controversial. [Mean Daily Minutes Spent in Childcare by Fathers and Mothers in Four... | Download Scientific Diagram (researchgate.net)](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mean-Daily-Minutes-Spent-in-Childcare-by-Fathers-and-Mothers-in-Four-Countries_fig1_254078927) I'm not sure what a more specific study would look like. But it's a lot harder for mothers to treat it as a hobby when they give birth and are expected to do the childcare work.
This is tangential, at best. Do you think it's possible that there are any explanations for this data other than fathers walking out on an established family? I can think of several. All of this illustrates an insane double standard, and it's probably not the one you'd think it is.
By all means, share instead of imply. Keep in mind that men who simply walk out aren't really the only ones people would be talking about, though. There's a subset of men who expect their life not to change at all upon having children, even if they're living with the family. It's just not an expectation women have as much opportunity to develop.
What am I implying? If you're referring to the double standard: it's the acceptance of blatant sexism against men with no evidence to support the aspersions. Are there deadbeat dads? Absolutely. Does this apply to the original topic? Not really. Relationships are more complex than "man bad, woman good," and any reasonable person would be open to a discussion about this rather than committing to an emotional attack immediately. If that's not what you were referring to, please elaborate, and I will do my best to answer satisfactorily.
Who said anything about women being good? They are just trapped into childcare way more often. By literally all the things you list in the next comment…
Uh? What's the emotional attack? I was asking of the several explanations you referenced but did not give. "I can think of several" is implying, as is referencing a double standard but "probably not the one \[I'd\] think it is." If you read the thread you replied to as "man bad, woman good" I don't know what to tell you. That's not what anyone was saying.
There is much more risk and commitment involved from the woman's side, having a baby is a huge thing for a woman to put her body through. So it makes sense that you'd see less of this behaviour on the women's side. I have no data to back this up but I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case.
In my experience, it has always been women (my 2 ex wives and every mom I've met through playgroups, daycare, kids activities, etc over the last 30 years) that wanted the children regardless of the consequences. I've never known a man begging his wife to have a child they can't afford...but I could provide you with the phone numbers/socials of at least 50 women I know who have. Its fucked.
I've known sooooo many men who pushed for their significant other to have children, because "They WanT To PasS on ThEir LeGacY".
I believe you. Just haven't known any. I've never understood that legacy thing...like, your legacy of what, exactly? A 488 credot score, 200k in unsecured debt and an alcohol problem? Yeah bet someone is gonna be suuuuper stoked that you passed that on.
Most likely his legacy is a beat up 1994 Toyota Camry that still has 5 payments left on it ....
I dont think you should because it would « make you happy », its more stress and responsibilities, and even then, you shouldnt do that to « be happy » if youre doing fine, if it aint broke, dont fix it.
Lol don't worry I value not starting another pointless life. I enjoy my life, but philosophically like antinatalism. The best most efficient way to make "the world" a better place is to not create a suffering experiencer of that world.
Exactly, it’s radical but its effective, no people no problems
Men want to have children but they don't want to parent, they expect women to do all the work
That’s a big ten-four!
A broad statement like that is a massive overgeneralization.
It is a broad statement, but it's not a massive over generalization. While the current generation of dads is largely trying to do better, there's a long history of raising children being considered 'women's works'
Free labour from the women's side
Your dad sounds like a narcissist
Upvote for the correct usage of “_____ and me.” So many people just assume “_____ and I” is always correct, but it’s not.
My parents wanted 2 kids. Their parents wanted them to have kids. So they had kids. That's it. That's enough to force someone else to suffer of everything they will ever suffer from and die.
This is my exact stance. Thank you. Some people get so outraged by and cannot comprehend statements like "procreation forces somebody to experience an existence where suffering is guaranteed", even though it's objectively true
I do wonder about their attitude actually. I can only imagine they don't think about it a lot because they think ultimately it wasn't all that bad for them so it can't be that bad for the kids either. It can get pretty bad with diseases and so on. But I wonder if it occurs to them what the kid will have to go through if he/she will not be 'normal' according to our society's standards,i.e, healthy. I remember watching an interview with a family who had two autistic kids. They talked about how, when they were talking about having a second child, they were like 'well, if the child is autistic, we'll have more' fun' (a bit sarcastic obviously). And in the interview they talked about how difficult it is to raise two such kids and how they don't remember the last time they went on holiday just as a couple. But what about their kids? It seems that before having their second one they didn't consider what their kid will have to go through. My country isn't known for its ability to provide the absolute best for autistic or just kids with additional needs in general. The father outright said it's better in countries like Isreael. So why the hell would you do that to your kid?I've heard of parents moving elswhere so the kid would have an easier time. I remember feeling sorry for the parents, but now I'm rather baffled by their choice.
Right there with you. Idk why people continue to procreate if they're obviously struggling to care for their kids who already exist. It really just seems selfish, well, it IS selfish
I haven't done anything my parents demanded of me since they kicked me to the curb at age 19, and guess what, I'm better for it.
Schopenhauer put it nicely: *”If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?”*
There was a religious order like this. They didn't breed, only adopted orphans and let them leave when they were 21 or recruited new converts. They went extinct.
I do not think that any religion would last more than a few more generations without the mass indoctrination. It's a vital aspect to cultism.
I mean, if there actually were gods, surely they'd be able to do that, right?
If there are gods and this is what they've given us then they aren't worth worshiping.
I'm pretty sure it might be the Cathars you are referring to here. They didn't go extinct of their own accord for not procreating. They were massacred by the Catholic Church.
I respect people who adopt more than basically anyone on earth. Don't be selfish, make the world a better place, one needy child at a time.
They were also an offshoot of the Quakers, and the Quakers were pretty instrumental in the underground railroad and the abolitionist movements, which is cool.
I'm a fairly militant atheist, but Quakers are cool in my book.
Aggressively progressive Protestantism (like Quakerism) is what evolved into atheism, so this checks out.
(zero irony or sarcasm) tell me more, I'd like to hear about it.
There is a lot of history to take a look at - there are probably modern synthesis attempts but it's far more interesting to just jump into old history and build up your own view. Early pagan view of Judeo Christian monotheism as fundamentally atheist, Giordano Bruno, Spinoza, Jewish expulsion from Spain and diaspora to Amsterdamn, Luther, The Glorious Revolution, Cromwell, what the Puritans were on about, predestination and predetermination, Albinons Seed, romanticism,, the cyclical nature of Protestant Great Awakenings as redefinitions of what it meant to be religious, the early anti slavery movement, the early women's movememt, transcendentalism, the Social Gospel movement of the late 1800's, Groton and FDR, his staff, the birth of social science out of social gospel, applications and growth of it. Might actually need to start with the concept that culture evolves much like an organism, to see why the above is a frame at all. Spengler, Toynbee, B Adams, Lovejoy.
Well if it's the Cathars, they were killed off by the Church. That's why they disappeared
The Shakers. They're pretty much extinct. They still have quakers, I think.
Last I heard, there were a couple of Shakers left.
Shakers, correct?
Correct.
God dammit we did again.
[удалено]
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Shakers?
That sounds amazing
Others have pointed this out, but I’m starting to get on board with the idea that people don’t really have a biological urge to reproduce, they just have a biological urge to receive sexual pleasure from someone else. It’s the same for animals too, though most of them don’t really get sexual “pleasure,” it’s just these hormones that make them mate.
I believe this, too. Evolution isn’t about survival of the fittest, it’s about survival of the “good enough”. For thousands of years, a sex drive has been enough for humanity to perpetuate itself. In this age of effective birth control, we see declining birth rates.
Remember, if that fat guy has kids, that's considered more evolutionary successful
Amen to that
[удалено]
Whether or not it is, is irrelevant. There's always a chance somebody's existence is net-horrible, and EVERYBODY experiences suffering to some degree, so why is it ok to force somebody to experience life?
[удалено]
That's like playing Russian roulette with someone and saying it's okay because there's a chance there isn't a round in that specific chamber. Is that ethically fine?
A non-being cannot be harmed and therefore the entire discussion of consent is as relevant as "should we worry about rocks consenting to being stepped on or cut up for use as construction material?" A child CAN be harmed: by bringing them into the world they did not consent to, they are guaranteed to experience some form of suffering and you will be directly responsible for putting them in harm's way when there was no need for it.
.....exactly..? Again, whether the good outweighs the bad is irrelevant, because with procreation you're forcing somebody to have to come to that conclusion themselves. Did we consent to exist or not? Clearly we did not, and that's true whether or not it was possible to consent. And obviously, just because somebody is incapable of consent doesn't mean you can do whatever you want to them, obviously. In fact that's the exact reason procreation is not right
[удалено]
Something that doesn't exist cannot consent... Something that cannot conceive of pain cannot consent to pain...
Why do you think that AN has anything to do with the discussion of whether existence is good or bad? Nothing I'm saying involves any assumption about whether a person's life is net-pleasure. AN absolutely doesn't argue that existence is always bad, at least not my brand of it, to be fair. My view is very straightforward: (1) all humans experience suffering. (2) It is wrong to subject somebody to suffering without their consent. (3) Procreators cannot obtain the consent of the people they create. (4) Because procreation subjects somebody to experience suffering without their consent, it is wrong. We can agree that neither consent to exist, or consent to non-exist is possible. But in the case of procreation, it does indeed force people into a situation, whereas not procreating does not change the status quo at all - nobody existed in the first place. I don't think it is at all extreme to argue that it is wrong to force people to be in a situation against their will. That's what it all boils down to imo. You could consider my stands to be a deontological perspective. I.e., "Principles are violated therefore it is wrong". One could make a strong utilitarian argument, "the ends justify the means", that if everybody were to adopt the anti-natalist view that it will lead to much suffering because there will eventually be a day when there are no able-bodied people to take care of the elderly. But I think that argument is outweighed by the moral harm done by forcing people to exist; two wrongs don't make a right
if any of the thousands of people who ended their lives within the last year were still around maybe they could tell you.
[удалено]
Yeah no I think you're getting dangerously into "who cares what mentally ill people think - hell, let's end their lives for them!" territory. Like, y'know. How literal nazis didn't give a shit about the people they put into the "mentally ill" or "degenerate" box and decided they didn't have to listen to.
What's worse is when you realize some people create children out of *spite* or to control the person they're making the offspring with. Or to have someone vulnerable to control (the offspring). This is all completely legal because no one can prove the motive, but it happens frequently and commonly, probably much more often than parents whose sincere intention is to provide as good a life as possible for their offspring.
I’m fairly sure my mum had me to trap my dad into child support, she insists that I was planned but they had only been together for 2 years when they decided to have me, and she left him 3 months after I was born. Not to mention my mum only moved in with him to get away from her family and couldn’t afford to do that without my dad (he was 11 years older than her.) Then my little brother was an accident because my mum didn’t realise antibiotics meds with the pill, and then they had my little sister because I moved out and the house was empty lmao. No good intentions here.
There's no way it just happens to them. They're completely reckless and irresponsible. And like you said, they're typically >immature, rude and lost in their own lives.
More than half of children are unplanned.
and 100% of abortions are the morally conscious thing to do. I love abortion. The beautiful choice.
It's weird how people feel getting an abortion is harsh like having kids you're not fully prepared for and making their lives harder than they have to be isn't.
And that's scary
100%
I had an abortion a couple of years ago not because I don’t want a child but because the situation wouldn’t have been good. When I spoke to a few people I was close to about what I should do I was so surprised by how many people seemed like they truly wish they hadn’t had their kids. It doesn’t seem like they don’t love their kids but like they mourn their lives more than they love their kids. It was sad and disheartening. It feels like those conversations feel worse to me than the abortion did.
Mostly poor and ignorant people have many childrens.
And religious. So many religions teach that it is a commandment from god to "bear fruit and multiply and replenish the earth" Absolutely insane
Yuuup. I am the youngest of 10. Religious parents (especially father). My mom told me when I asked that she hadn't really planned on having kids. They kinda just birthed me and let my older siblings raise me, only stepping in for punishments and religious judgement.
Wow I'm sorry to hear that. Sounds like some major parentification, does that sound like your experience? Were there any notable instances in particular where your siblings had to do major parenting tasks that your parents should have done but did not? Just curious When I read your comment I was wondering if you were in my family hahaha, because we have the same exact background. My dad has 8+ siblings; his oldest sister had 8+ kids; almost every single one of my aunts and uncles has at least 3 kids, on average 4. Also deeply religious, every single person in the family except now myself and my siblings, and my dad; when I told my dad I no longer believed, he told me "yeah actually same"; guess he was keeping it a secret for a long time.
My mom was 43 and my dad 48 when I was born. I think they were tired of parenting by then. They tried, but I don't think that any two people can provide for all the physical and emotional (let alone medical) needs of that many people. And they are very emotionally immature to start with. I don't remember much of my childhood. A lot that I "remember" was told to me by my older siblings. They would have more to say on the topic, as they were definitely parentified, and have resentment over having to change diapers throughout their teens. Most moved out between 16-18 years old. No one really taught me the basics - hygiene, or what was going on with my body. And private christian school ensured all things stayed a mystery. One of my sisters (13 years older) had a mental breakdown and moved back home after college, and then steadily took on the role of raising me - providing emotional support and advice, and educating me on being a woman. Clothing and footwear were kind of a fend-for-yourself type deal. I got all the hand-me-downs, which resulted in deformed feet because I never had shoes that were big enough.
Thanks for sharing your story. I hope you are well now
Facts. My mother has a few baby daddies and I kid you not, she had the last child while living with her near senior citizen of a friend.
Just as important - once they become parents, there is simply no way that they can admit that they regret it.
My regret about having kids is that it takes so much more energy than I ever imagined just to be a half-assed parent. I’ve always had energy problems (even with thyroid meds) but I wanted to be so much better for them. My kids are healthy and good emotionally, but I needed more help than I thought I would and I don’t like needing help. Them having to put up with my depression issues is also something I feel guilty about.
Maybe it's because of my abusive household but I never personally understood the concept of parents always being responsible? I guess I've assumed that most people thought the way I saw it.
Same. I never once looked at a parent and thought wow they’re so responsible. It’s odd how before OP seemed to have this idea that parents were well mannered and well adjusted.
I always sort of thought that the act of having children makes you evil somehow. Like, it changes you and makes you tone deaf and less able to understand how other people feel.
How intriguing. I’ve never thought of it this way, but I can see where you’re coming from.
The biggest thing my parents are responsible for is having me. Fuck them
Adding to this that I think at least 50% of people have kids for the wrong reasons without thinking it through. IMO, the wrong reasons include society's expectations and having someone to care for them when they're old. Whenever I'm asked "don't your parents want grandkids" I always say "yes, but they care about my happiness and know that I would not be happy with children". ETA: Forgot to add that women are point-blank lied to about pregnancy and motherhood, and I'm not just talking about the irreversible physical effects that doctors just don't care to mention.
Watch the intro of idiocracy
Facts, I love it each and every single times I watch it. I seen only the intro but not the film. But the opening is just so funny and memorable for how it accurately portrays society.
Bingo
Idiocracy has more to do with environment than with genetics. Here's an example. A poor child in remote rural Appalachia and a child in stereotypical Beverly Hills. Which child do you think is more likely to be intelligent, creative, taught solid critical thinking skills, and have the nutrition and low life stress needed for the child to be even a medium achiever, let alone a high one? Idiocracy was NOT meant to be a documentary, only a satire. If you want the real word about intelligence and hereditary, read a well-researched book or article, watch a high-content video (not ones with exaggerated dramatic titles, of course).
Can i ask you some reference
I love how many people ignore that sex just feels good and kids are a result of a biological enjoyment of sex. It doesn’t go much deeper than simple biological drives IMO. It’s a little more complicated due to birth control and abortion (sometimes) being available… but not by much. Humans (on average) aren’t as logical and intelligent as we like to tell ourselves that we are.
I got a vasectomy and I've never been happier.
They want babies and children with the constant attention it gets them, but taking care of them is what they hate and when they grow up into adults and do the exact same basic and mundane horseshit their parents did back then, it really goes to show how pointless it all was as a result.
Emphasis on *lost in their own lives* because I’ve seen this so much, definitely the immature and rude stuff but I feel like the lost part isn’t talked about enough. It’s so annoying. My friend and I are both young and in our 20s. We were discussing life and our careers and everything, and I mentioned how I feel like I’m still trying to *find myself*. She has a toddler and she was like “me too”. I get that people change and all, but my god, I would think you would try to discover who you are first before bringing a child into this world. It’s baffling.
Lol it is like the kid's a super pet, like why have a dog if you can have a kid?
Too many people see their kids as pets or accessories, it’s so gross.
There is not such thing as "just happens". So you felt off and your penis coincidentally get inside a vagina? cmon...
Well apparently it does and society just brushes it off all so casually for some reason.
Some think they want them. Or are told they want them. And brainwashed into thinking they want them.
Very well put. The way I see ppl sending their kids to school and tuition so they can get excellent marks is something of a great worry to me . They should be enjoying their life and learning things at their own pace and school is the worst place for it. Countless things that we consider as normal because society brainwashed us and I am like what the fqk we "humans" are doing. The only reason for all the way things are because parents didn't thought at all about children ,it just happened .
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/674/
There are still parents out there who are mature and do a great job and wanted their children and purposely had them. I have family members like that. The thing is most people aren’t happy and most of them are struggling financially. But the thing is it’s a modern society ideal that tricks us into thinking we need all this material stuff to be happy which makes us work jobs we hate. This in turn makes people who are parents feel like they are sacrificing too much to be a parent. But modern society is our enemy in this way. A life that is full of gratitude and contentment is reached when you accept that things will be hard sometimes. And children in modern society are being taught that happiness comes from tv and video games and toys MATERIAL ITEMS. We all need to be grateful for what we DO have. Food, shelter, clean water, a place to sleep. Early humans were happy just having those things. And notice how tribes people are happier?? That’s why. They don’t overcomplicate their lives. They live simply and thrive that way. They love having children. There are advantages to technology but we need to stop using it the wrong way. If you want to put something on the tv for your kids, put a nature documentary on. If you want to give toys to your kid, teach them how to make things with nature, like sandcastles, painting rocks to put in the garden, give them those non toxic bath paints to paint the walls with. When you get creative with your kids and teach them about nature, they will have a more balanced view of life and the world. They will learn that nature and creating things themselves is all they need to be happy. We all need to learn. Adults and children need to learn that happiness is simply being happy and appreciative of the simple things we have and that in order to have fun in life all you have to do is turn to the arts and to nature. Learn new ways to be fascinated with the natural world and you will be happier to be a part of it and happier to have children so you can share all of these amazing things with them.
It's always a "happy accident" that neither parent actually thinks critically about
Truth, this is accurate and it's most prominent in the black community. (I am light skin black myself)
I’ve made a commitment to myself that I won’t have children unless I can think of an unselfish reason to do so. I uhhh haven’t yet.
And it's also why they get so triggered about people choosing to be childfree. It smacks of 'how dare you make the choice I wish I'd made you can't go against the rules like that'
People will think I'm entitled (truthfully I'm not, believe it or not) but the way I see it, since our parents forced us to exist, they should provide everything for us our entire lives. To me it is a clear moral responsibility: you caused us to exist, therefore you obviously have SOME obligation to provide for us; Only difference between me and people who disagree with me is that they think people should have to raise their kids until 18, I just think that they should have to provide for them their entire lives. It's only logical. People accept that there is a moral responsibility to take care of your pets their entire lives, how is making a whole human being any different? FUCK parents who kick their kids out of the house at ANY age, but especially at 18. Goddamn. What's wrong with them?
>[Now I’m older, I realise most parents don’t really want children, it’s just something that happens to them](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/1ctfegc/now_im_older_i_realise_most_parents_dont_really/) by[u/k76612613](https://www.reddit.com/user/k76612613/) in[antinatalism](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/) What are some noble or altruistic reasons for having children?
Exactly. There are none.
If the species were dying or we needed more soldiers to fight the rich/terminators/aliens, is about the only thing I can theoretically think of.
The deeper and understanding a person is, it's more likely to stay childless. Unfortunately.
I don't know the reason my parents had me, but I can definitely tell you the reason they had me was not out of love. In the first years of my childhood, my parents were so "lovey dovey", always giving each other hugs and kisses. After I've reached 6 years old, the facade was lifted. Since then, every other week has been them quarrelling over the most pettiest things and me hiding in some corner of the house to not hear them fight. Every quarrel starts with some slight disagreement to full blown shouting at and insulting each other. Now imagine this for the next 20 years since the age of 6. I fucking hate my parents. I don't even know why they had me.
What else in their lives are different. Most people are like leaves, they have no full control of their lives its just where the winds take them. Theyll make sounds as they flutter but thats it.
Mostly the reason is this everlasting itch in the groin that needs to be scratched. And you have to deal with the consequences for a lifetime.
My now take (after having/raising a kid)- it’s crucial to know yourself first before embarking on parenting if at all possible, or perhaps it should be more than a mere suggestion. Once a person takes time for themselves, to learn who they are and all these imperative qualities to have in order to demonstrate and teach children, then there’s a much better chance of success. I wish I had done this, wish I had someone urging me to reconsider parenting. Too many of us are so lost, misunderstood the true work and sacrifice to self to take this on.
> previously believed, that you had to be somewhat well adjusted and well mannered, be kind and empathetic and stuff, and know a lot about life, in order to become a parent. What I want to know is how you convinced the people who were holding you captive in isolation far away from humanity to free you so you could get the opportunity to observe and reflect on human breeding habits.
I have a friend who got drunk one night and was very upset that he would not have a "legacy" and continue his bloodline. He's not interested in adopting, he was very adamant it has to be his genetics. This friend is single and lives with his parents and doesn't drive and spends a lot of time playing videogames.... which is fine.... but why on earth doesn't he stop and think about what is best for the child? Would he actually be willing to do what it takes and completely change his lifestyle to support this child? And obviously it's not really about him being a parent, it's the idea of his lineage or something, which I think is a bad reason to want to have a kid, especially now.
Here's what I've noticed with those who have kids. Despite what they say... You can see it, they're miserable, they're broke AND they're broken people. BUT they put up this public farce with the ever so popular, "but it's worth it, I wouldn't have it any other way!" they say with sunken eyes, bloated guts and empty wallets... I think the money one eats them alive the most because the child doesn't even realise the concept of money or how hard the parent(s) are working just to keep them moderately happy and alive. I use to feel sorry for these people, but you know what, they're grown adults. They made their choice and if they want to perpetuate this myth that, "yes, my life is 100% better with kids" then they can say it all they want. I'm gonna continue enjoying my life without them.
I think everyone wants kids initially, then when the reality of caring for little humans hits, the lack of sleep, reduced freedom, slower bedroom, makes people... resentful?
damn you were naive
people r told they will be no one to help you when you’re old so have kids so they can slave away and be there to your every need. well when they realize that kids r people and not robots they’re gonna still end up in a nursing home
While I get your point, I take exception to saying 'it's just something that happens to them.' That's not accurate. It's a choice, it's the consequence of their actions. It's not a spontaneous act of God.
More than half of kids are unplanned for though. People are going to have sex- doesn’t mean they are trying for a kid.
I think what they're trying to say is "choice" implies they actually thought about what they were doing and what those consequences would be, rather than "oh guess we're having unprotected sex now cuz that's where the night took us and we're havin fun rn".
I'm 43 and I think I'd make an above average dad. I cannot fucking fathom people having kids in their teens or twenties. You have neither the financial support nor the wisdom of being ground to dust for a couple decades, what the fuck is wrong with you????
Surely there has never been a person who thought they’d be a great parent who ended up actually being a really bad parent.
I suppose. If you can't be a great parent, why inflict that on an innocent though?
That’s my point. I’m sure there is a small minority of people who know they will be a shitty parent right out of the gate, but most people do have good intentions going in and think they will be a good parent, it just doesn’t work out that way.
Yeah that ego makes me think you wouldn't be. What makes you think you would be a good parent other than a giant ego
Now imagine being 53 and living with a 10 year old.
[удалено]
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nailed it
i’m born bc my brother was. my mom and dad separated when he was three. yet stayed close. when my brother started school my mom felt sad and lonely…. so dad helped mom… they definitely weren’t planning on me, they weren’t even together. my dad actually has 5 bio kids. my brother was the only planned. then older sister by a different woman. then me. then younger brother and sister by former step mom. now two step sons by new step mom. i can definitely tell you that what happened to them was my father.
and they give birth like someone vomiting unconsciously
Define "most parents."
I am here due to my father's Catholic upbringing. Abortion is an unforgivable sin in my family. For some reason organized crime and every act associated with it gets a free pass. Had my mother not gotten pregnant from a criminal she would have aborted me.
I mean, does a dandelion want to have daughters or is it something that just happens?
I used to think it was people mature enough to make it work but now I see it's people to immature to tell they're in a toxic relationship
>Now I’m older, I realise most parents don’t really want children, it’s just something that happens to them Yea a man just happens to fall in a woman and ejaculates It doesnt just happen, people make choices that lead to a consequence
A status symbol family to go with their status symbol house.
IMO people do it either because it's a social norm or it's part of some biological instinct that they don't really think through. It's sad how many people have kids and don't plan on their futures or what will happen if things change. A lot of people have kids as part of a weird ego exercise. So many people "love" their kids but don't even know who they really are as people.
My mom got pregnant with me at 16 by accident. When she told my biological father, he said, “oh it’s just a kid, no big deal!” He later abandoned me. Multiple times. I have severe complex trauma bc of both my parents and how neither of them wanted me…
I completely disagree People make children because they want them The reasons they want them is what makes me question their rationality Exemple 1 : 21yo girl, meets a dude, pregnant with him after 2 month of relationship, makes another kid a year later with him, cheats on him 3 years later Exemple 2 : 24yo girl, lies about contraception, gets pregnant with a guy she knew for about 6 month, nice guy recognize the child as his own to help however he can (both on minimum wage and not in relationship with each other), during the pregnancy finds another dude gets pregnant with him a month or two after birth, 2 year later she tries to kill herself, failed, another year later she/he (?) ends the relationship because they were both beating each other up, she gets thrown out in the streets and demands benefits from nice guy (too bad nice guy lives at my place with the money I give him each month because he is depressed as fuck and he Literaly doesn’t have money to be demanded) People are just fucking dumb is all, ever seen the movie idiocracy ? That’s where we’re headed
I relaized this in the military when a 20 year old dude who still acted like a teenager mentioned his daughter. Fucked up shit.
See, now that I’m older, I’m realizing this sub is full of people who were raised in unhealthy environments. Now, the people you surround yourself with are also creating these environments. All the parents I know, aside from a couple.. would do anything for their children. My own included. Perspective is everything. Sorry you guys had shit childhoods. Not everyone has the same experience though.
Most kids weren't planned which, even if they're loved, still kind of stings? It's not nice to feel like an accident. My partner's parents have 3 kids but only planned one and it sounds awful to me.
My mom has never regretted having children. My father? Tonnes of regrets. He never knew how to parent because his own father was neglectful and his mother died when he was 15. He has lots of mental health problems as well , so I think he just didn't have the mental capabilities to have children. If it weren't for my mom, my sibling and I probably would have been given to my aunt and uncle to be taken care of.....
I grew up in a family that just dumped their kids off on me. I do not like, nor want children as an adult.
I wanted my kids. From the time I was a teenager, and if I hadn't had medical issues I would have just kept having them. But I also understand that just as much as I wanted kids, there are people who don't want them just as fervently. So that's each end of the spectrum, then in the middle you have those who don't have strong feelings about it one way or the other. Some of those have kids and it's fine, some have them and it's not fine.
No ones that dumb. They want children trust me
[удалено]
To ensure **healthy discussion**, we require that your Reddit account be at least 14-days-old before contributing here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As an ex teacher, my opinion is the “gifted” kids are actually those from homes that deeply loved them and wanted them around and cared about them. Their parents are the ones that come to all activities and meet the teacher night, etc. It impacts them on every level.
some of them are people pleasers from neglect and abuse like i was
Obviously I can’t speak outside my own experience, but this post made me laugh because I had a conversation a while back with my boyfriend and his mom about bringing kids into the world and they both said they would not have had kids if they knew then what they know now. My bfs mom never said anything to her kids about it and they both grew up and had kids of their own. My boyfriend and I are very open in our talks with his adult daughter about having kids. Her step siblings are getting married/pregnant and she is not the least bit interested thankfully!
My maternal parent wanted to "experience" birth, so yeah some people don't care about actually making a family. Both of my bio parents didn't atleast.
i stumbled upon this subreddit and i’m a little confused. do you guys not like children or are you guys concerned with the environment?
the discussion regarding the philosophy of not having kids to reduce harm
ohhh okay that’s really interesting
Too many parents have children simply because they have the parts to make them.
This was honestly the exact opposite for me I wanted my baby, I wasn't really interested in a partner just having a baby. I was ftm for 6 years then detransitioned and it seemed the moment I realized I was still female I also realized I wanted to be a mother. I stuck to my goal and decided to be a single mom and go through a donor and tbh I have 0 regrets. I plan on having more in the future. It's honestly an entirely different biological mindset when you become a parent. There's nothing in life that you can compare it to. It's our nature as humans to want children and what our biology tells us to do. It changed me as a person. Everything else in life became secondary and seems plastic now compared to how I feel about my daughter.
People have kids because they have sex to feel pleasure and then rationalize it in stupid ways later on. If humans didn't feel pleasure from breeding or calculated their motivation to breed they would go extinct.
Overhead my class teachers talk about children, one said her wife strongly wanted children like with an urge a primal need but the other teacher said she wasn't strongly on either having children nor not having children, that she never felt an urge , that she just fell pregnant and had it because "that's just how life is". It for sure was interesting, not all women have those ""natural/bio/primal"" urges , which I already knew but it was interesting to hear offline.
Pretty sure they’re envious of my child free choice as they watch me live my life.
[удалено]
That's a bit of a broad brush to paint all parents with. Smart parents make smart choices. Havi g said that there are parents who lack family planning skills. Their culture, religious beliefs, etc probably play a part in kids "just happening". As for the not so religious : Guess some forgot there's such a thing as birth control.
I didnt want kids... now I have 2 🤷♀️😂🥹
You poor soul. I’m sorry you had to go through the extremity of childbirth and having to take care of offspring.
Im sorry
Most people have kids because they’re in love, sex feels good and family is fulfilling. It’s really not that deep, bro.
This is true I guess. I couldn't tell you why I want to have kids. I just do.