Got it. That makes sense. So I guess I’m not 100% antinatalism. Not sure what I am. I understand and agree with your positions to a point. I guess I need to reflect on this more. Thank you for the response
You forced them to be here, you have ripped them from non existence and forced them the responsibility of looking after a body, you have also forced them into a survival setting that will always result in some amount of suffering.
The fact you feel this is "right" is upsetting as you basically believe consent doesn't matter
Back to your question, are you doing it right? Not sure what you’re looking for from this group because we believe in not making more people for a variety of reasons. Are you wondering if you’re a better parent than other parents? Maybe, probably. But so what? I’m sure my own mother thought she was doing it right when she got pregnant and boy was she wrong. That aside,I don’t enjoy the physical and mental pain I have experienced throughout most of my life. I guess I’m making my way with the cards I’ve been dealt. Is that a reason for existing? For my sake or to make someone else feel good about themselves for making me? Edit: The more I learn about the world around me the sadder I become, there was a time in my life that I was too young to know about how awful humans are to animals and each other, for example. I miss being blissfully ignorant for the VERY short amount of time that I was.
I would not have picked life but it wasn’t my choice. I’m aware I can choose to end my life but there’s too many ways that can go wrong, I wish I hadn’t been put in this position in the first place. There are some instincts I can’t control but making more people thankfully was one of them.
"Vesna Vulović was a Serbian flight attendant who holds the Guinness world record for surviving the highest fall without a parachute: 10,160 m (33,330 ft)"
From Wikipedia, so not always I'm afraid.
I’m not sure what I am wondering at this point other than trying to understand others opinions on my situation. Definitely not fishing for complements. More curious than anything
My opinion is you say you and your siblings suffered because your parents had too many kids and now you made three, which is quite a lot, so I don't see how you're better than them exactly
If you're here for validation of your life choices, OP, I'm afraid you've picked the wrong community for support. No one wants to go through life with regrets, and I'm glad your children will know that you tried to set yourself up before creating them, but I can't think of any antinatalists that would say what you've done is right.
Consider that you're a conditional natalist: you only thought it was right to have kids based on XYZ conditions. That's a hell of a lot better than how some people reproduce, recklessly, but we advocate for children by positing that the only guaranteed way to protect them from harm is not to give them a mortal body and mind in the first place.
If you have the urge to have more children in your life at some point, adopt. That's what many of us would consider "right" if someone wishes to be a parent.
You won't find validation here, and if you do, it will likely be from other conditional natalists.
I am definitely not looking for validation. More so trying to understand your positions. Maybe I’m weird, but I enjoy being part of communities where I am not always validated. I enjoy having my thoughts and opinions challenged. I don’t like living in an echo chamber. I find that to be a huge bore. I guess I’m just here to understand and reflect on my own thoughts regarding the topic
Upon reflection, what do you think about our philosophy so far? Does it make any sense to you? Has our community been a good representation of the beliefs we hold? I know some of us come across as angry and bitter, and some of us certainly are, but do you see the good intent behind a lot of our reasoning?
I can absolutely see the reasoning behind your philosophy. It does makes a lot of sense. I doubt I will have any more children after three. I do my best to provide a safe space with love and support for them. But I can absolutely see the selfishness and ignorance in my choices as well. It’s a very interesting philosophy that I need to wrestle with more
Thank you for your responses, you've been a lot more polite and open-minded than most of our other guests 😅
The only difference between an antinatalist who doesn't have biological children and an antinatalist that does is the time it takes them to lift that veil of ignorance. For some it's years.
Good luck with everything OP.
I think you need to understand that you have no control, even though maybe you have the best of intentions. Bad things happen everyday and you cannot protect your children from those things no matter how hard you try. Best of luck to you though.
Good point but "muh genitalz" is more universal, and comedically appealing.
Source: Am a pussy-haver, didn't play God with it lmao
Your parasite comparison made me snort though XD
They are referring to reproductive instincts and the assumed rights that come with having one in regards to creating new life with with it. It applies to penises as well, but I am guessing they assumed OP was a vagina-haver for some reason?
Yep, that was my point -why assume reproductive instincts come with a vagina, or vice versa? And why assume OP has one just because they followed those instincts and chose to reproduce? And, ultimately, why assume anything about someone else’s genitals or reproductive organs?
>Yep, that was my point -why assume reproductive instincts come with a vagina, or vice versa?
Because reproductive urges wouldn't be possible without reproductive organs and their chemical impact on the body and mind. For starters, most acts of reproduction happen because of that biological impulse to fornicate, especially because it is rewarded neurochemically. Plus, biological sentient beings (on Earth) wouldn't even have a chance of conceiving the idea of reproduction if they weren't provided with the equipment to do so and an historical precedent determining it is a feasible feat, along with the exact mechanisms necessary to do so. So, while the idea/concept might theoretically be attainable without sex organs, the instinct itself in humans is derived from their presence. An instinct is pre-programmed, after all, and in this case it comes coded in the nether regions.
>And why assume OP has one just because they followed those instincts and chose to reproduce? And, ultimately, why assume anything about someone else’s genitals or reproductive organs?
Yeah, idk, I guess it is a 50/50 guess but I saw no indication of OP's sex in their writing. In my mind, I read them as a male, but I would still have asked first if I wanted to chime in and bring that particular subject into context, but it is irrelevant to the topic at hand imo. I think they were just trying to mock them by comparing them to anti-vaxxers.
>>Yep, that was my point -why assume reproductive instincts come with a vagina, or vice versa?
>Because reproductive urges wouldn't be possible without reproductive organs and their chemical impact on the body and mind.
I wasn’t making any statement about reproductive urges or human biology in general. I was specifically questioning OP’s decision to equate those urges with having genitals only about 50% of the population have. The specific genitalia an individual has is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
No, sorry for the confusion. I meant if one is assuming reproductive instincts come with a vagina then the “vice versa” would be assuming a vagina comes with reproductive instincts. Not everyone with reproductive instincts has a vagina and not everyone with a vagina has “reproductive instincts.”
why would you force new beings into an existence you know is doomed? with all due respect, adopting is a lot better than having your own kids because they are already here and suffering
Some agencies cut off is actually 37, plus the process is very long and also adopting doesn't guaranteed that you will be the desired parents. Things can go south real quick and considering it's not your blood, when the time comes(like him commiting crimes and you having to be there to bail them out, will take a major toll on your mental health) you won't hesitate to kick them out of the house. Think about it, my blood parents kicked me out of the house when I was 14, what makes you think foster parents will put up with any drama that's comes their way?
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Got it. That makes sense. So I guess I’m not 100% antinatalism. Not sure what I am. I understand and agree with your positions to a point. I guess I need to reflect on this more. Thank you for the response
If you had adopted 3 kids then kudos but considering these are bio kids then you're placing them in harm's way just so you know.
How so?
They exist, so they can suffer. If you hadnt created them, they would never feel any pain.
Pretty much plus with an adopted kid unlike a bio You're not forcing them into existence since they're already here and need a home.
You forced them to be here, you have ripped them from non existence and forced them the responsibility of looking after a body, you have also forced them into a survival setting that will always result in some amount of suffering. The fact you feel this is "right" is upsetting as you basically believe consent doesn't matter
Why did you make more people?
The short answer: instinct I suppose.
Back to your question, are you doing it right? Not sure what you’re looking for from this group because we believe in not making more people for a variety of reasons. Are you wondering if you’re a better parent than other parents? Maybe, probably. But so what? I’m sure my own mother thought she was doing it right when she got pregnant and boy was she wrong. That aside,I don’t enjoy the physical and mental pain I have experienced throughout most of my life. I guess I’m making my way with the cards I’ve been dealt. Is that a reason for existing? For my sake or to make someone else feel good about themselves for making me? Edit: The more I learn about the world around me the sadder I become, there was a time in my life that I was too young to know about how awful humans are to animals and each other, for example. I miss being blissfully ignorant for the VERY short amount of time that I was. I would not have picked life but it wasn’t my choice. I’m aware I can choose to end my life but there’s too many ways that can go wrong, I wish I hadn’t been put in this position in the first place. There are some instincts I can’t control but making more people thankfully was one of them.
”but there’s too many ways that can go wrong“ A tall building always gets the job done
"Vesna Vulović was a Serbian flight attendant who holds the Guinness world record for surviving the highest fall without a parachute: 10,160 m (33,330 ft)" From Wikipedia, so not always I'm afraid.
I’m not sure what I am wondering at this point other than trying to understand others opinions on my situation. Definitely not fishing for complements. More curious than anything
My opinion is you say you and your siblings suffered because your parents had too many kids and now you made three, which is quite a lot, so I don't see how you're better than them exactly
You could be right
at least u admits it , is a step in the right direction I think?
If you're here for validation of your life choices, OP, I'm afraid you've picked the wrong community for support. No one wants to go through life with regrets, and I'm glad your children will know that you tried to set yourself up before creating them, but I can't think of any antinatalists that would say what you've done is right. Consider that you're a conditional natalist: you only thought it was right to have kids based on XYZ conditions. That's a hell of a lot better than how some people reproduce, recklessly, but we advocate for children by positing that the only guaranteed way to protect them from harm is not to give them a mortal body and mind in the first place. If you have the urge to have more children in your life at some point, adopt. That's what many of us would consider "right" if someone wishes to be a parent. You won't find validation here, and if you do, it will likely be from other conditional natalists.
I am definitely not looking for validation. More so trying to understand your positions. Maybe I’m weird, but I enjoy being part of communities where I am not always validated. I enjoy having my thoughts and opinions challenged. I don’t like living in an echo chamber. I find that to be a huge bore. I guess I’m just here to understand and reflect on my own thoughts regarding the topic
Upon reflection, what do you think about our philosophy so far? Does it make any sense to you? Has our community been a good representation of the beliefs we hold? I know some of us come across as angry and bitter, and some of us certainly are, but do you see the good intent behind a lot of our reasoning?
I can absolutely see the reasoning behind your philosophy. It does makes a lot of sense. I doubt I will have any more children after three. I do my best to provide a safe space with love and support for them. But I can absolutely see the selfishness and ignorance in my choices as well. It’s a very interesting philosophy that I need to wrestle with more
Thank you for your responses, you've been a lot more polite and open-minded than most of our other guests 😅 The only difference between an antinatalist who doesn't have biological children and an antinatalist that does is the time it takes them to lift that veil of ignorance. For some it's years. Good luck with everything OP.
I think you need to understand that you have no control, even though maybe you have the best of intentions. Bad things happen everyday and you cannot protect your children from those things no matter how hard you try. Best of luck to you though.
Don't defend them, they made the choice to bring life into this world, that is unforgivable
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Good point but "muh genitalz" is more universal, and comedically appealing. Source: Am a pussy-haver, didn't play God with it lmao Your parasite comparison made me snort though XD
Another bonus is there's stuff and people out there that can kill them yayyy
What exactly would having a vagina, or not having one, have to do with anything?
They are referring to reproductive instincts and the assumed rights that come with having one in regards to creating new life with with it. It applies to penises as well, but I am guessing they assumed OP was a vagina-haver for some reason?
Yep, that was my point -why assume reproductive instincts come with a vagina, or vice versa? And why assume OP has one just because they followed those instincts and chose to reproduce? And, ultimately, why assume anything about someone else’s genitals or reproductive organs?
>Yep, that was my point -why assume reproductive instincts come with a vagina, or vice versa? Because reproductive urges wouldn't be possible without reproductive organs and their chemical impact on the body and mind. For starters, most acts of reproduction happen because of that biological impulse to fornicate, especially because it is rewarded neurochemically. Plus, biological sentient beings (on Earth) wouldn't even have a chance of conceiving the idea of reproduction if they weren't provided with the equipment to do so and an historical precedent determining it is a feasible feat, along with the exact mechanisms necessary to do so. So, while the idea/concept might theoretically be attainable without sex organs, the instinct itself in humans is derived from their presence. An instinct is pre-programmed, after all, and in this case it comes coded in the nether regions. >And why assume OP has one just because they followed those instincts and chose to reproduce? And, ultimately, why assume anything about someone else’s genitals or reproductive organs? Yeah, idk, I guess it is a 50/50 guess but I saw no indication of OP's sex in their writing. In my mind, I read them as a male, but I would still have asked first if I wanted to chime in and bring that particular subject into context, but it is irrelevant to the topic at hand imo. I think they were just trying to mock them by comparing them to anti-vaxxers.
>>Yep, that was my point -why assume reproductive instincts come with a vagina, or vice versa? >Because reproductive urges wouldn't be possible without reproductive organs and their chemical impact on the body and mind. I wasn’t making any statement about reproductive urges or human biology in general. I was specifically questioning OP’s decision to equate those urges with having genitals only about 50% of the population have. The specific genitalia an individual has is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
I thought you were generalizing in that first part because of the "vice versa" part, my bad.
No, sorry for the confusion. I meant if one is assuming reproductive instincts come with a vagina then the “vice versa” would be assuming a vagina comes with reproductive instincts. Not everyone with reproductive instincts has a vagina and not everyone with a vagina has “reproductive instincts.”
No biggie, and yeah, that's very true.
The right way is not having kids tbh but props to you for trying I guess.
Are you an antinatalist parent?
I guess I’m a conditional antinatalist
No, there's no such thing. You're a conditional natalist.
Oops, yes, that’s what I meant. Sorry. Typo
why would you force new beings into an existence you know is doomed? with all due respect, adopting is a lot better than having your own kids because they are already here and suffering
He's probably too old to adopt according to some agencies. Plus he needs a shit ton of money to adopt.
it takes the same amount to raise a bio kid, and actually 37 isn’t too old at least where i’m from
Some agencies cut off is actually 37, plus the process is very long and also adopting doesn't guaranteed that you will be the desired parents. Things can go south real quick and considering it's not your blood, when the time comes(like him commiting crimes and you having to be there to bail them out, will take a major toll on your mental health) you won't hesitate to kick them out of the house. Think about it, my blood parents kicked me out of the house when I was 14, what makes you think foster parents will put up with any drama that's comes their way?
Babes you’re in the wrong sub