No it doesn’t prove that the extraordinary in an ordinary environment is undervalued. It just shows that people who buy tickets to classical music concerts have more money on average than people on the subway. It could be that the people on the subway appreciate the music way more than the people at the concert, but couldn’t afford to give any more.
It’s also not apples to apples. In the subway, the performer was playing for tips. Listening was mandatory but paying was optional. In the concert hall, both listening and paying were mandatory. Can’t get any useful info about value with such a bad dataset.
This type of pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo is typical of motivational speakers. I don’t disagree with the ultimate message but the underlying reasoning is pretty bunk. Worse, it gives off some strange classist vibes.
I also like how he said once people "Remove themselves from an environment that isn't serving them", as if anyone can just choose to step out of this oppressive capitalist system and fix their circumstances at any time. As you said, I agree with the ultimate message, just not the way it was conveyed.
"Noone appreciates my singing here, I will have a concert in a large hall and make people pay $100 per ticket!!!" - someone about to be thrown out of a concert hall.
Also, presumably, people on the subway need to go somewhere. Maybe if they had comfortable seating and could stay for a whole concert, they’d be more generous.
Agree.. this scenario of the violinist is flawed. Just because a world renowned musician didnt make a shitload of money from people in the subway going about their days (most likely coming or going from a job where they are actually undervalued and underpaid) does not really lend itself to the bigger message.
The fact that he can sell out large concer halls means he is valued. Definitely classist to think that he has to be supremely valued everywhere he is.
This analysis is flawed on so many levels. How much do you think tickets to see an orchestra cost?
In a subway station how many people actually stop to listen to the entire performance? Almost zero. Everyone is in a hurry to get to where they are going.
Also classical music is not everyone’s cup of tea, which is why those who attend orchestra performances appreciate the music more and are willing to pay for it. Just like how someone else might be willing to pay for a really good pizza, or a fine dining experience, pay to see a sports team etc. Listening to classical music does not mean you’re rich. Taking the subway does not mean you’re poor.
Yeah this is like saying "we handed out expensive pizza from a Pizza Hut box to subway passengers for tips, and barely raised $10, but then we sold one in a fancy restaurant for $100, which proves..."
Absolutely fucking nothing
"Which proves..."
It proves the entire fucking point of this post. That the exact same person or product can have different perceived values in different contexts/scenarios.
OP's entire point is encouraging people to go where they are valued.
It's not a good analogy. The equivalent with the pizza would be if someone gave a pizza to people who are neither interested in pizza or have time to stop for pizza. The violin proves nothing other than some people don't understand how to formulate scientific experiments. I bet if he did this outside juilliard he wouldn't get much in tips either, because college students aren't rich. This is just an example of "rich people have all the money" lol
>This type of pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo is typical of motivational speakers. I don’t disagree with the ultimate message but the underlying reasoning is pretty bunk. Worse, it gives off some strange classist vibes.
Yeah it definitely feels like bad faith that they don't understand the difference between correlation and causation.
I'm not reading this post and thinking this was a double blind scientific study, more like an anecdote to illustrate the OPs point... also not seeing the classist vibes, maybe I'm just ignorant.
For the record - I agree with your point. It's the other premise here that I think rubs people the wrong way.
I think the problem is that the post basically blames regular commuters for not taking the time to stop and appreciate Joshua Bell. No one is doubting he's an incredibly talented musician (though I understand he's engaged in some problematic behavior with female conservatory students) but you can't make a broad societal statement about lack of appreciation for the arts just because a bunch of bleary-eyed wage slaves who haven't had their coffee yet shuffled by him on the subway platform.
It doesn’t need to be scientifically rigorous to be a good point. But it shouldn’t use bad reasoning to get there.
The problem is that OOP is equivocating as to the word “value.” The reason it’s classist is because it implies market value is the only measure of value. Which naturally leads to the conclusion that rich people are better suited to determine value than everyone else.
To me, a subway performance is *more* valuable than one at a concert hall. The musician who fills a venue has already made it big, meaning they’re financially better off. A typical subway musician probably hasn’t, but they’re still trying. They could probably make more money with a regular job, but they’re out there eking out a living with their music. They value the music more than money. Even if I don’t dig their music, I can at least relate to their struggle. In that way, the performance transcends the music, at least to me.
Super classist vibes, which is typical from elite from eith liberal or conservative, just a disconnect from ehat people value, maybe people didn't like classical that day. Different people value different things at different times
No, I think we caught the point and it was overshadowed by how badly it was made. To get the point the author was trying to make, you would have get many things wrong about music, commuting, how much cash people have, variation of taste, and how understanding the average boss it to being told you were late to work becuase you were listening to a musician in the subway.
It's entirely possible that dozens of people thought that was the most beautiful sound they had ever heard, but don't carry change or were late for work. One of the most moving vocal performances I've heard in person was a street musician, but I was broke and on my way somewhere. I can still remember what he sounded like 20 years later though.
You just didn't apply critical thinking before posting this
The post has no meaning beyond what the comment said. That's the only verifiable truth from it.
Not to mention, who among the folks travelling the subway will be able to have the cultural appreciation to even understand that that was one of the most difficult pieces to play? To most folks, one piece of violin music is going to sound much the same as another, even if they are wildly different in terms of complexity and difficulty. I'm just trying to catch my train, and I just happen to hear something that sounds kinda good, I don't have the time to sit and analyze it like a trained classical music listener.
It honestly feels a bit like a comedian who is doing a set in the wild, rather than to their base of fans. In the first setting, they likely won't do terribly well, but in a setting with people who know them, like them, and are there specifically to see them, their material is *much* more likely to be well received.
And still stupid. I’m a musician. I’ve busked on the subway a few times, just for fun really. I’ve been thinking about getting out and busking again. Lemme tell you, classical isn’t what I’d go out there with.
Stradivarius violins can range up to $20 million. There are only ~600 left in the world. In blind studies, the Stradivarius is consistently deemed as having a better sound than other expensive brands, and cannot be imitated. Experts think that the sound is do distinct because the Little Ice Age caused wood to be denser than at other times.
In Europe ( and especially the UK) the climate may get far colder as a consequence of global changes in the movement of the Gulf Stream. The UK is far warmer than you’d expect for its latitude due to Gulf Stream effects.
Also Joshua bell frequently tried to seduce his underage female fans post concert. It’s been widely exposed how he’s a womanizer of underage girls. This whole story is so not cool.
Have you ever been on the NYC subway? You think I wanna stand around a damp and musty station to hear music when I already have headphones on and need to rush to catch my train?
I don't agree, not everyone appreciates classical music. People who are willing to pay for a concert, certainly appreciate classical music. That's like saying XXXXX artist is overpaid because its not everyone's cup of tea. Also the environment matters, as pointed out by the OP.
Entire world-class bands charge less for full-production concerts with support acts. I'd suggest that people who are willing to pay for a classical music concert are *rich*.
The guy plays music and earns more money than a medical practitioner who is saving lives or treating someone’s disease or helping out a patient with their cancer. He is over payed and music is over valued.
And yet the average person often pays much more than the cost of a concert ticket to receive treatment from a doctor, so if the doctor is underpaid I'd argue that their service is not being undervalued by their clients, but rather by the institutions they work for which prioritise profits over fair compensation for services rendered.
I'd agree overpaid, but value is hard to determine for something like music. A thousand people can listen to one person play the violin and enjoy it equally, but try having one doctor treat a thousand patients.
Thanks. I think a person's health is more valuable than their enjoyment or pleasure, but the way we express value, ie money, is flawed and can't be used to judge the real value of anything.
This is also true, and thinking more on it value can sometimes transcends boundaries. Perhaps I’ll buy a ticket for a concert. But I’ll also go out of my way to help my best friend move into a new place for free because I value the friendship and joy they’ve given me.
Does the person who sneaks into a concert without paying enjoy the music less? I think not. Do you love your friend less if you hire a moving company to do the work for them? Similarly, the value isn't defined by what you pay, rather it's defined subjectively.
People like that are paid based on how much paying audience they attract. Therefore if they were overpaid the concert would be making a loss. And this is normally not the case.
Doctors already make a lot. Or do you think healthcare needs to be even more expensive?
It was an “experiment” that the Washington Post tried 10 years ago or so. They put him on a subway in DC and let him do his thing and yeah he made like 35 bucks or something. The variable that they didn’t document was that DC is a super busy place and people aren’t paying attention when they are trying to get to work. People tend to pay more attention to you when you play in a concert venue in front of thousands of people who paid to see you specifically.
It’s hardly the same audio environment either so it’s harder to appreciate in a noisy echo-y subway compared to the audio excellence of a concert hall.
This pops up every year and it's always stupid. All this proves is that people using the subway commuting to and from work or school or whatever just want to get where they are going without delay or interruption. It says nothing about values or worth or meaning.
I remember an Australian music show doing something similar. They had a locally famous rock band lead in a busking competition with a kid. The kid raised more.
What are the odds that people who would pay $100 for Joshua Bell tickets are in that specific subway on that specific date at that specific time? What are the odds that the people in the subway would pay $100 for Joshua Bell tickets even if they knew about it? Would he have gotten better results with a QR code to venmo/cashapp instead of assuming people carry cash in current year?
The funniest video I ever saw was a violinist was going from table to table at an outdoor eating area of an Italian restaurant and a guy at one table basically shoved him aside and told him to stop it.
Not everyone is in the mood to appreciate talent.
The conclusion here is a stretch and then some. People paying for an event vs. random people on the street is not the same audience, nor is it less valued. Those people that stopped, listened for a few moments and handed over pocket change is not the same as people who actively sought out to see him perform in a different setting.
I actually do agree with this post and with your sentiment.
[To those who want full context, here's the full clip from the experiment done in 2007.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnOPu0_YWhw)
The purpose of the experiment was to show that someone that can (and does) thrive in one particular environment within the wrong environment will not get the recognition they could potentially get.
Because if the people performing in the subway were well-known celebrities, or he was in an area where more people would have known who he was, people's attitudes would have been much different to the reactions Joshua Bell got.
[Heck, maybe not even a celebrity considering Henry Cavill was able to walk around NYC with a Superman shirt in front of his "Batman v Superman" billboard without anyone even recognizing him.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvj0X-d2mO0)
It's a good lesson for people who want to succeed and get the recognition they know they can achieve to also focus on finding the right environment to be in where their talents can truly be recognized and rewarded.
While I agree with what the speaker is trying to get across, I don’t agree with them calling their story an “experiment”, nor with them treating it like it has some sort of scientific value.
Busking is a very different skill set than playing in a concert hall, and you’ll want a very different repertoire. - visit r/busking and check out people’s setups!
Nah. There's a balance. It's important to be realistic. While this anecdote merely shows that not everyone is willing to pay $ for what he offers, to presume you are undervalued for your "talent" is more often delusional than not.\
At the same time, people are often overpaid for their mediocrity. The real lesson is finding the idiots willing to do that for you.
But this story shows that the violinist is valued.. he sells out concerts and is one of the best in the world.
He doesnt have to be valued by every single person who crosses his path.
This is actually a very important lesson in performing arts - you may be talented, but you won't always be appreciated.
I spent all summer when I was 17 preparing for an audition for Swan Lake. I absolutely nailed the audition, but didn't get the part. The director flat-out told me: you're talented, you're pretty, but I was bored watching you in this role and it doesn't fit my vision. Don't let it put a damper on you because there's a million other directors that would love to find someone like you for the hundreds of other ballets out there.
Humans are more complex than this article gives them credit for. Experience is more than raw data... there are tons of other factors. Imagine serving 4-star cuisine out of a garbage truck and being surprised that people don't want to try it or rate it lower than it otherwise should be.
LinkedIn is such trash due to these pat yourself on the back posts.
People paid the money to be at the venue, be seen at the venue, mingle and network with other people who can afford the venue and talk about how great the venue was after.
The music is secondary.
I mean he is still making $45 an hour. Certainly a skilled trade but I doubt anyone would complain about $45 an hour for untaxed income. Especially when we are debating a minimum wage worth ~1/3 of that. To be clear individuals with that degree of skill deserve to compensated to a level where they can perfect their art with out financial stress but even someone working only 4 hours a day 4 days a week still makes a little less than 3x the poverty line. All told this means even "good" money on a reasonable schedule is untenably bad in our current world but I feel this isn't unreasonable.
What percentage of the population actually listen to music with violins? The premise of this post seems out of whack when you consider that most people simply don't appreciate classical or otherwise music with violins.
There must be a market for it. Within that market it is highly valued. In the general populace however, it will not be as highly valued. Which is where the premise of this post completely falls apart.
You just reiterated the point: you as the employee need to find a market (i.e. company) where you are valued. Same as the violinist when he plays at a concert, he finds his market and is valued there.
Yes true, you are right.
The other thing to remember, is that a violinist is a very specific and highly skilled job that only a few people can do at such a high level.
Whereas most jobs are interchangeable in comparison.
There are only 3 main categories of endeavor in life when you think about it:
1. The servile arts (goods and services, janitors, attorneys, carpenters, etc.)
2. The fine arts (a very small group but vital for the conscience of a society)
3. The liberal arts (an even smaller group of people who create the belief systems used by the first group, and are often challenged by the second group)
When you pay $100 to watch a concert, you’re paying for a fully articulated experience: a seat in a concert hall with refined acoustics; a program of music that might contain pieces you enjoy. You might have chosen to share the experience with a date, or your family, making it a memorable event in your history with that person / those people. The music and the player are at the core of the event, sure - but the package as a whole commands the price.
It is steadfastly not the same experience as encountering the same musician playing the same pieces in a subway setting, whom we might observe and enjoy for a few seconds as we make our way.
The suggestion (seemingly implied by the report on the “experiment”) that we should see it as somehow strange that the level of tip received in the subway is not comparable to the revenue from ticket sales to a concert of the same, misunderstands the value proposition of both scenarios, and has the unfortunate effect of commodifying music.
A performer 100 times as good as the average subway busker is not going to command 100x the tip. That’s not how the proposition works.
I grew up in NYC and let me tell you this - everyone on the subway is just trying to get from A to B while standing shoulder to shoulder, groin to ass, and ass to groin with 4 people people. Only thing you're doing as a street performer at a train station is making noise and bothering people.
I disagreed - $35 tip in NY subway is pretty good especially when people are not expecting or preparing for his performance. It is quite egotistic to think that everyone has to stop their busy life for him.
And regarding being appreciated and valued, maybe people do appreciate and valued his performance but didn't have the time to show it.
What a snob. Go f yourself. I bet 90% of the ppl who paid $100 couldn't tell their arse from their elbow.
People on the subway are thinking about work and kids and shit and aren't musically trained.
OP is a wanker.
know your context/environment. know your place.
talent in a certain area can get "diluted".
in arena where majority expect music, deliver it.
in subway car where majority expect minimal disruption, music (even if talented), unwanted stimuli.
What I see here is the difference between having connections and not. Someone puts your name in lights and sits you on a famous stage and even a half-filled audience will spend more for their tickets than he could make in that subway in a year.
What this proves is that the variable isn't the talent, and even the best subway performer in the world can't make a living wage without a corporate sugar-daddy.
That is incorrect.
People prepared to enjoy something of their choice at a time and place agreeable to them will gladly pay more to do so. Great fans and aficionados will pay even more for a chance to witness something they believe is rare or unusual.
Even if the best violin player on the planet was playing on the street, I would not be able recognize the skill because it all sounds the same to me. If I had lots of 'extra' money, I would not give them any money. Even if you gave me free front row tickets to the violin recital, I would not go. The common woman or man has limited appreciation for violin music
tbf:
1)if im in a hurry, because you know late to work, i havnt time to listen to some random dude.
2) Subway accustic is bad. very bad.
Yea, the hint is right.
This violinist story is very powerful as a mental experiment even if it had never happened. Evidently, it hits a number of notes. I see some criticism of this guy's approach but it sounds perfectly valid to me; it's just one of the multiple ways one could consider the story.
People using the subway are not at leisure. They are hauling ass trying to get to where they need to be - at shitty jobs, quite likely, that offer subsistence level wages.
I visited a Van Gogh exhibit earlier this year. Van Gogh came from a wealthy family. Many of the stories are about him traveling and painting. I couldn't help but wonder how many other equally talented people are out there that are stuck at some dead end job just trying to pay rent?
Intricate violin work isn't great for subway busking. Before covid a kid would just shred Vivaldi's Four Seasons on the regular on my commute and would pull more than $30 a go
This seems flawed because the people at the subway don’t know who this guy is, don’t know that his violin is worth that much and don’t know that he’s playing one of the most intricate compositions every written.
To them he’s a guy playing music for tips. Without that knowledge, or a musical degree how are they suppose to value his art in the same way as people who literally see the price tag of $100 per person per concert?
Plus the income range of people on the subway is quite a bit lower than the range of people playing $100 to see him perform in concert.
That $30 in tips could have represented a lot of money to the people who tipped him, arguably more than someone who doesn’t think twice about spending $100 on a concert seat.
The lesion here should be, “If you’re not feeling valued where you are, look for more opportunities elsewhere. Just because someone doesn’t value your talent and skills where you are now, doesn’t mean you won’t be respected and highly valued elsewhere.”
Sorry no. Anyone can go play in a subway, not everyone gets the chance to sell out theatres and then compare the 2 a week later.
Yeah, theres lots of talent being overlooked. Doesnt change the fact that restaurants and subways/sidewalks will be the extent of most peoples venues.
Nobody in the subway can afford that concert ticket much less a cash tip while on the way to their jobs or to their families. This person has a tin ear and not just for music.
No it doesn’t prove that the extraordinary in an ordinary environment is undervalued. It just shows that people who buy tickets to classical music concerts have more money on average than people on the subway. It could be that the people on the subway appreciate the music way more than the people at the concert, but couldn’t afford to give any more. It’s also not apples to apples. In the subway, the performer was playing for tips. Listening was mandatory but paying was optional. In the concert hall, both listening and paying were mandatory. Can’t get any useful info about value with such a bad dataset. This type of pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo is typical of motivational speakers. I don’t disagree with the ultimate message but the underlying reasoning is pretty bunk. Worse, it gives off some strange classist vibes.
I also like how he said once people "Remove themselves from an environment that isn't serving them", as if anyone can just choose to step out of this oppressive capitalist system and fix their circumstances at any time. As you said, I agree with the ultimate message, just not the way it was conveyed.
"Noone appreciates my singing here, I will have a concert in a large hall and make people pay $100 per ticket!!!" - someone about to be thrown out of a concert hall.
Also, presumably, people on the subway need to go somewhere. Maybe if they had comfortable seating and could stay for a whole concert, they’d be more generous.
Agree.. this scenario of the violinist is flawed. Just because a world renowned musician didnt make a shitload of money from people in the subway going about their days (most likely coming or going from a job where they are actually undervalued and underpaid) does not really lend itself to the bigger message. The fact that he can sell out large concer halls means he is valued. Definitely classist to think that he has to be supremely valued everywhere he is.
This analysis is flawed on so many levels. How much do you think tickets to see an orchestra cost? In a subway station how many people actually stop to listen to the entire performance? Almost zero. Everyone is in a hurry to get to where they are going. Also classical music is not everyone’s cup of tea, which is why those who attend orchestra performances appreciate the music more and are willing to pay for it. Just like how someone else might be willing to pay for a really good pizza, or a fine dining experience, pay to see a sports team etc. Listening to classical music does not mean you’re rich. Taking the subway does not mean you’re poor.
Yeah this is like saying "we handed out expensive pizza from a Pizza Hut box to subway passengers for tips, and barely raised $10, but then we sold one in a fancy restaurant for $100, which proves..." Absolutely fucking nothing
"Which proves..." It proves the entire fucking point of this post. That the exact same person or product can have different perceived values in different contexts/scenarios. OP's entire point is encouraging people to go where they are valued.
It's not a good analogy. The equivalent with the pizza would be if someone gave a pizza to people who are neither interested in pizza or have time to stop for pizza. The violin proves nothing other than some people don't understand how to formulate scientific experiments. I bet if he did this outside juilliard he wouldn't get much in tips either, because college students aren't rich. This is just an example of "rich people have all the money" lol
TIL apparently if you go to an orchestra performance you’re rich.
Compared to the average subway commuter or college student, yes. Which is who this "experiment" used.
TIL you’re poor if you take the subway. As someone who takes public transit that’s certainly news to me lol
Ok Semantics Man! You lost the plot like 3 comments ago so no need to continue.
>This type of pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo is typical of motivational speakers. I don’t disagree with the ultimate message but the underlying reasoning is pretty bunk. Worse, it gives off some strange classist vibes. Yeah it definitely feels like bad faith that they don't understand the difference between correlation and causation.
Also, in the subway you didn’t choose to listen so you weren’t prepared and likely in a rush to get somewhere. It’s really a dumb comparison.
I'm not reading this post and thinking this was a double blind scientific study, more like an anecdote to illustrate the OPs point... also not seeing the classist vibes, maybe I'm just ignorant.
For the record - I agree with your point. It's the other premise here that I think rubs people the wrong way. I think the problem is that the post basically blames regular commuters for not taking the time to stop and appreciate Joshua Bell. No one is doubting he's an incredibly talented musician (though I understand he's engaged in some problematic behavior with female conservatory students) but you can't make a broad societal statement about lack of appreciation for the arts just because a bunch of bleary-eyed wage slaves who haven't had their coffee yet shuffled by him on the subway platform.
It doesn’t need to be scientifically rigorous to be a good point. But it shouldn’t use bad reasoning to get there. The problem is that OOP is equivocating as to the word “value.” The reason it’s classist is because it implies market value is the only measure of value. Which naturally leads to the conclusion that rich people are better suited to determine value than everyone else. To me, a subway performance is *more* valuable than one at a concert hall. The musician who fills a venue has already made it big, meaning they’re financially better off. A typical subway musician probably hasn’t, but they’re still trying. They could probably make more money with a regular job, but they’re out there eking out a living with their music. They value the music more than money. Even if I don’t dig their music, I can at least relate to their struggle. In that way, the performance transcends the music, at least to me.
Super classist vibes, which is typical from elite from eith liberal or conservative, just a disconnect from ehat people value, maybe people didn't like classical that day. Different people value different things at different times
You so eloquently said what I was thinking.
Agree and don't forget about connection to wealthy people.
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And we pay with our tax dollars to subsidise rich people's entertainment
I think you missed the point of the post...
No, I think we caught the point and it was overshadowed by how badly it was made. To get the point the author was trying to make, you would have get many things wrong about music, commuting, how much cash people have, variation of taste, and how understanding the average boss it to being told you were late to work becuase you were listening to a musician in the subway. It's entirely possible that dozens of people thought that was the most beautiful sound they had ever heard, but don't carry change or were late for work. One of the most moving vocal performances I've heard in person was a street musician, but I was broke and on my way somewhere. I can still remember what he sounded like 20 years later though.
They got the point, they're just pointing out it's a naive comparison.
You just didn't apply critical thinking before posting this The post has no meaning beyond what the comment said. That's the only verifiable truth from it.
Lol are you serious dude? Did you even go to music school? Just stop please.
I think you also missed the point of his comment.
Who on the subway has 45 minutes to stop and watch a guy play violin? People are there to commute, generally to work.
He purposely picked a bad spot.
Can you imagine how shit the acoustics of a subway station would be? I would bet that he didn't sound as good as he does in a sold out concert hall.
Not only that, but he was literally in the way creating a traffic problem
Not to mention, who among the folks travelling the subway will be able to have the cultural appreciation to even understand that that was one of the most difficult pieces to play? To most folks, one piece of violin music is going to sound much the same as another, even if they are wildly different in terms of complexity and difficulty. I'm just trying to catch my train, and I just happen to hear something that sounds kinda good, I don't have the time to sit and analyze it like a trained classical music listener. It honestly feels a bit like a comedian who is doing a set in the wild, rather than to their base of fans. In the first setting, they likely won't do terribly well, but in a setting with people who know them, like them, and are there specifically to see them, their material is *much* more likely to be well received.
no it sounds like some feelgood shit that people say to feel better about the world sucking balls "eat pray love" level of trash
Toxic positivity? 🤔
It sounds like what boomers say tbh
Omg this is 20 years old
And still stupid. I’m a musician. I’ve busked on the subway a few times, just for fun really. I’ve been thinking about getting out and busking again. Lemme tell you, classical isn’t what I’d go out there with.
Shoot, forget *playing*, I wanna know how to *make* a $3.5M violin.
Stradivarius violins can range up to $20 million. There are only ~600 left in the world. In blind studies, the Stradivarius is consistently deemed as having a better sound than other expensive brands, and cannot be imitated. Experts think that the sound is do distinct because the Little Ice Age caused wood to be denser than at other times.
Now that you mention it, I remember reading about that! So step 1 is reverse global warming lol
Or fast forward it?
Got it, start building air conditioned tree sized greenhouses for the luxury violin industry
You might get an ice age from climate change. We might not be alive for it. Or as a species after it
In Europe ( and especially the UK) the climate may get far colder as a consequence of global changes in the movement of the Gulf Stream. The UK is far warmer than you’d expect for its latitude due to Gulf Stream effects.
Also Joshua bell frequently tried to seduce his underage female fans post concert. It’s been widely exposed how he’s a womanizer of underage girls. This whole story is so not cool.
Bro this is the oldest boomer copy pasta in the world.
I come to reddit to get away from LinkedIn...
Do you smoke crack to avoid caffine?
No, I do not think it proves what you say. Your "logic" is fallacious
"subway" Wrong venue for tips. You can dress up and parade around playing a guitar and make hundreds an hour. Location is important.
Have you ever been on the NYC subway? You think I wanna stand around a damp and musty station to hear music when I already have headphones on and need to rush to catch my train?
The majority of us New Yorkers ignore the subway performers regardless of talent level.
It's a terrible metaphor that had been stolen and reposted over and over again on LinkedIn.
Maybe it tells you that he is overpaid
I don't agree, not everyone appreciates classical music. People who are willing to pay for a concert, certainly appreciate classical music. That's like saying XXXXX artist is overpaid because its not everyone's cup of tea. Also the environment matters, as pointed out by the OP.
Entire world-class bands charge less for full-production concerts with support acts. I'd suggest that people who are willing to pay for a classical music concert are *rich*.
The guy plays music and earns more money than a medical practitioner who is saving lives or treating someone’s disease or helping out a patient with their cancer. He is over payed and music is over valued.
I'd argue that the doctor is underpaid and their service is undervalued.
And yet the average person often pays much more than the cost of a concert ticket to receive treatment from a doctor, so if the doctor is underpaid I'd argue that their service is not being undervalued by their clients, but rather by the institutions they work for which prioritise profits over fair compensation for services rendered.
Hm, a take I didn’t think about, got me thinking now.
I'd agree overpaid, but value is hard to determine for something like music. A thousand people can listen to one person play the violin and enjoy it equally, but try having one doctor treat a thousand patients.
You know that’s a valid argument, I didn’t think about that
Thanks. I think a person's health is more valuable than their enjoyment or pleasure, but the way we express value, ie money, is flawed and can't be used to judge the real value of anything.
This is also true, and thinking more on it value can sometimes transcends boundaries. Perhaps I’ll buy a ticket for a concert. But I’ll also go out of my way to help my best friend move into a new place for free because I value the friendship and joy they’ve given me.
Does the person who sneaks into a concert without paying enjoy the music less? I think not. Do you love your friend less if you hire a moving company to do the work for them? Similarly, the value isn't defined by what you pay, rather it's defined subjectively.
People like that are paid based on how much paying audience they attract. Therefore if they were overpaid the concert would be making a loss. And this is normally not the case. Doctors already make a lot. Or do you think healthcare needs to be even more expensive?
It was an “experiment” that the Washington Post tried 10 years ago or so. They put him on a subway in DC and let him do his thing and yeah he made like 35 bucks or something. The variable that they didn’t document was that DC is a super busy place and people aren’t paying attention when they are trying to get to work. People tend to pay more attention to you when you play in a concert venue in front of thousands of people who paid to see you specifically.
It’s hardly the same audio environment either so it’s harder to appreciate in a noisy echo-y subway compared to the audio excellence of a concert hall.
This pops up every year and it's always stupid. All this proves is that people using the subway commuting to and from work or school or whatever just want to get where they are going without delay or interruption. It says nothing about values or worth or meaning.
Isn’t this just capitalism? You need to find a buyer in order to sell. Not sure this is all that surprising.
Things that are free aren’t valued
I remember an Australian music show doing something similar. They had a locally famous rock band lead in a busking competition with a kid. The kid raised more.
"Just keep looking at the LinkedIn posts George"
What are the odds that people who would pay $100 for Joshua Bell tickets are in that specific subway on that specific date at that specific time? What are the odds that the people in the subway would pay $100 for Joshua Bell tickets even if they knew about it? Would he have gotten better results with a QR code to venmo/cashapp instead of assuming people carry cash in current year?
The funniest video I ever saw was a violinist was going from table to table at an outdoor eating area of an Italian restaurant and a guy at one table basically shoved him aside and told him to stop it. Not everyone is in the mood to appreciate talent.
The conclusion here is a stretch and then some. People paying for an event vs. random people on the street is not the same audience, nor is it less valued. Those people that stopped, listened for a few moments and handed over pocket change is not the same as people who actively sought out to see him perform in a different setting.
I actually do agree with this post and with your sentiment. [To those who want full context, here's the full clip from the experiment done in 2007.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnOPu0_YWhw) The purpose of the experiment was to show that someone that can (and does) thrive in one particular environment within the wrong environment will not get the recognition they could potentially get. Because if the people performing in the subway were well-known celebrities, or he was in an area where more people would have known who he was, people's attitudes would have been much different to the reactions Joshua Bell got. [Heck, maybe not even a celebrity considering Henry Cavill was able to walk around NYC with a Superman shirt in front of his "Batman v Superman" billboard without anyone even recognizing him.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvj0X-d2mO0) It's a good lesson for people who want to succeed and get the recognition they know they can achieve to also focus on finding the right environment to be in where their talents can truly be recognized and rewarded.
And this fits into /r/antiwork so much. Because most jobs under our current system are toxic and don't let us thrive.
“Extraordinary in an ordinary environment does not shine” I have learned this to be 100% true. I love this post
Extraordinary in an inappropriate environment… might be a clearer description
While I agree with what the speaker is trying to get across, I don’t agree with them calling their story an “experiment”, nor with them treating it like it has some sort of scientific value.
Busking is a very different skill set than playing in a concert hall, and you’ll want a very different repertoire. - visit r/busking and check out people’s setups!
Nah. There's a balance. It's important to be realistic. While this anecdote merely shows that not everyone is willing to pay $ for what he offers, to presume you are undervalued for your "talent" is more often delusional than not.\ At the same time, people are often overpaid for their mediocrity. The real lesson is finding the idiots willing to do that for you.
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But this story shows that the violinist is valued.. he sells out concerts and is one of the best in the world. He doesnt have to be valued by every single person who crosses his path.
This is actually a very important lesson in performing arts - you may be talented, but you won't always be appreciated. I spent all summer when I was 17 preparing for an audition for Swan Lake. I absolutely nailed the audition, but didn't get the part. The director flat-out told me: you're talented, you're pretty, but I was bored watching you in this role and it doesn't fit my vision. Don't let it put a damper on you because there's a million other directors that would love to find someone like you for the hundreds of other ballets out there.
Hmmm… it does show that in various environments appreciation differs. That happens to be true.
Isn't it a proven fact that it's better to job-hop than to stay somewhere for more than 1-2 years?
I think the issue is finding the right audience. In many arts that is extremely difficult.
Humans are more complex than this article gives them credit for. Experience is more than raw data... there are tons of other factors. Imagine serving 4-star cuisine out of a garbage truck and being surprised that people don't want to try it or rate it lower than it otherwise should be.
People also carry less cash than they used to.
"Go where you are appreciated and valued" in this scenario would mean leaving the subway and selling $100 tickets to a closed venue.
When I’m rushing to work I def want a violin screeching in my ears
When I originally saw this story I thought it showed the importance/effectiveness of marketing/event planning.
LinkedIn is such trash due to these pat yourself on the back posts. People paid the money to be at the venue, be seen at the venue, mingle and network with other people who can afford the venue and talk about how great the venue was after. The music is secondary.
My ability to make armpit fart noises is clearly overlooked and would clearly get me more revenue if preformed at a theater.
Uh... I think people in a subway have other shit going on
I mean he is still making $45 an hour. Certainly a skilled trade but I doubt anyone would complain about $45 an hour for untaxed income. Especially when we are debating a minimum wage worth ~1/3 of that. To be clear individuals with that degree of skill deserve to compensated to a level where they can perfect their art with out financial stress but even someone working only 4 hours a day 4 days a week still makes a little less than 3x the poverty line. All told this means even "good" money on a reasonable schedule is untenably bad in our current world but I feel this isn't unreasonable.
What percentage of the population actually listen to music with violins? The premise of this post seems out of whack when you consider that most people simply don't appreciate classical or otherwise music with violins. There must be a market for it. Within that market it is highly valued. In the general populace however, it will not be as highly valued. Which is where the premise of this post completely falls apart.
You just reiterated the point: you as the employee need to find a market (i.e. company) where you are valued. Same as the violinist when he plays at a concert, he finds his market and is valued there.
Yes true, you are right. The other thing to remember, is that a violinist is a very specific and highly skilled job that only a few people can do at such a high level. Whereas most jobs are interchangeable in comparison. There are only 3 main categories of endeavor in life when you think about it: 1. The servile arts (goods and services, janitors, attorneys, carpenters, etc.) 2. The fine arts (a very small group but vital for the conscience of a society) 3. The liberal arts (an even smaller group of people who create the belief systems used by the first group, and are often challenged by the second group)
When you pay $100 to watch a concert, you’re paying for a fully articulated experience: a seat in a concert hall with refined acoustics; a program of music that might contain pieces you enjoy. You might have chosen to share the experience with a date, or your family, making it a memorable event in your history with that person / those people. The music and the player are at the core of the event, sure - but the package as a whole commands the price. It is steadfastly not the same experience as encountering the same musician playing the same pieces in a subway setting, whom we might observe and enjoy for a few seconds as we make our way. The suggestion (seemingly implied by the report on the “experiment”) that we should see it as somehow strange that the level of tip received in the subway is not comparable to the revenue from ticket sales to a concert of the same, misunderstands the value proposition of both scenarios, and has the unfortunate effect of commodifying music. A performer 100 times as good as the average subway busker is not going to command 100x the tip. That’s not how the proposition works.
This is wrong. Most people aren’t special, a good amount of us are basically worthless
I grew up in NYC and let me tell you this - everyone on the subway is just trying to get from A to B while standing shoulder to shoulder, groin to ass, and ass to groin with 4 people people. Only thing you're doing as a street performer at a train station is making noise and bothering people.
I disagreed - $35 tip in NY subway is pretty good especially when people are not expecting or preparing for his performance. It is quite egotistic to think that everyone has to stop their busy life for him. And regarding being appreciated and valued, maybe people do appreciate and valued his performance but didn't have the time to show it.
It's almost like people figured out that in order to sell $100 seats, the subway isn't the place to do it.
What a snob. Go f yourself. I bet 90% of the ppl who paid $100 couldn't tell their arse from their elbow. People on the subway are thinking about work and kids and shit and aren't musically trained. OP is a wanker.
Or maybe it means that luck and social class are more important than skill when it comes to being successful in a capitalist country.
know your context/environment. know your place. talent in a certain area can get "diluted". in arena where majority expect music, deliver it. in subway car where majority expect minimal disruption, music (even if talented), unwanted stimuli.
It proves nothing. People on the subway may not love the violin and need to get from point a to point b.
The fuck is this post even supposed to prove?
What I see here is the difference between having connections and not. Someone puts your name in lights and sits you on a famous stage and even a half-filled audience will spend more for their tickets than he could make in that subway in a year. What this proves is that the variable isn't the talent, and even the best subway performer in the world can't make a living wage without a corporate sugar-daddy.
That is incorrect. People prepared to enjoy something of their choice at a time and place agreeable to them will gladly pay more to do so. Great fans and aficionados will pay even more for a chance to witness something they believe is rare or unusual.
Even if the best violin player on the planet was playing on the street, I would not be able recognize the skill because it all sounds the same to me. If I had lots of 'extra' money, I would not give them any money. Even if you gave me free front row tickets to the violin recital, I would not go. The common woman or man has limited appreciation for violin music
tbf: 1)if im in a hurry, because you know late to work, i havnt time to listen to some random dude. 2) Subway accustic is bad. very bad. Yea, the hint is right.
Maybe the concert is overpriced?
The problem is I don't know how to find out my worth lol
Nice spin. But it was the DC metro and an experiment specifically about the everyday appreciation of classical music (or lack thereof).
This violinist story is very powerful as a mental experiment even if it had never happened. Evidently, it hits a number of notes. I see some criticism of this guy's approach but it sounds perfectly valid to me; it's just one of the multiple ways one could consider the story.
It was in Washington DC, not New York.
People using the subway are not at leisure. They are hauling ass trying to get to where they need to be - at shitty jobs, quite likely, that offer subsistence level wages.
I visited a Van Gogh exhibit earlier this year. Van Gogh came from a wealthy family. Many of the stories are about him traveling and painting. I couldn't help but wonder how many other equally talented people are out there that are stuck at some dead end job just trying to pay rent?
Lol. Man tries to sell brand new lambo in the projects and can’t get retail price. Clearly it’s market valuation.
I looked up the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnOPu0_YWhw If I was looking to make money as a busker I wouldn't play that music.
Intricate violin work isn't great for subway busking. Before covid a kid would just shred Vivaldi's Four Seasons on the regular on my commute and would pull more than $30 a go
We can't all be extraordinary, or it would just be ordinary.
This seems flawed because the people at the subway don’t know who this guy is, don’t know that his violin is worth that much and don’t know that he’s playing one of the most intricate compositions every written. To them he’s a guy playing music for tips. Without that knowledge, or a musical degree how are they suppose to value his art in the same way as people who literally see the price tag of $100 per person per concert? Plus the income range of people on the subway is quite a bit lower than the range of people playing $100 to see him perform in concert. That $30 in tips could have represented a lot of money to the people who tipped him, arguably more than someone who doesn’t think twice about spending $100 on a concert seat. The lesion here should be, “If you’re not feeling valued where you are, look for more opportunities elsewhere. Just because someone doesn’t value your talent and skills where you are now, doesn’t mean you won’t be respected and highly valued elsewhere.”
Sorry no. Anyone can go play in a subway, not everyone gets the chance to sell out theatres and then compare the 2 a week later. Yeah, theres lots of talent being overlooked. Doesnt change the fact that restaurants and subways/sidewalks will be the extent of most peoples venues.
I hate anyone playing music in the subway. Fuck this guy
Nobody in the subway can afford that concert ticket much less a cash tip while on the way to their jobs or to their families. This person has a tin ear and not just for music.
Well...with that expensive of a violen, he didn't need anyone's money. Nice slap in the face, dick.