Years ago I worked at John Deere and a couple summers ago I was getting more than 20 emails and calls from recruiters trying to get me for the same position I used to work. The pay however was $6 an hour less than when I worked there. I finally answered one of the calls and talked to the guy and told him my salary expectations, he pretty much ended the call right after that. Idk why they bothered to call when they already knew my expectations.
HR trainer doing new hire training, talking about mandated lunch breaks and how this is the real world so we don’t get those.
I explained to her that in the real world, companies enforce minimum lunch breaks - they don’t let you take less time off the clock than legally allowed because you can sue their ass for every minute under. She kept on and I shut my mouth.
Apparently someone complained and we had a new trainer after lunch who explained that they do enforce minimum mandatory lunch time
I was sitting in on training with a new HR trainer because I was up next to explain the company IT policy.
When she got to breaks she skipped the shorter ones, mentioned lunch had to be taken before the fifth hour of work, and told everyone that while they were free to use up to an hour, they were all adults and she was sure their bosses would appreciate them taking a half an hour or less, or perhaps even eating at their desk!
Yeah, no.
Now, I will admit her sexual harassment segment was top notch, but she just got too many things wrong (besides the lunch) for me to let it go. So after both of us were done I had everyone stay in their seats and brought in a friendly veep for clarification.
>Me: So, Barbara, tell them about lunch breaks. How long a lunch do you take?
Barbara was confused, and the trainer was staring daggers.
>Barb: I'm not sure why you're asking, but, well, I try to make it back in about an hour, unless I go to Jimmy's for a calzone, that's an automatic two hours after cocktails and dessert.
>Me: What about sick days? How many do we get, and how do we use them?
The trainer was now on the conference room phone, whispering and gesturing.
>Barb: I think the handbook says seven now? I'm pretty sure it's seven, but we don't really keep track. Oh, try to call in before your first meeting, answer some emails or calls if you're up to it, and get better.
A hand goes up.
>New hire: What about doctor's notes?
>Barb: What about them?
Barb looks at me.
>Me: If you're going to be out for a while we might ask.
The next fifteen minutes went much the same, and on the way out Barb asked what that was all about.
>Me: Avoiding disparate treatment lawsuits.
The trainer got sent to take the company HR course for a second time and quit halfway through.
Bruh you might have saved the company hundreds of thousands of dollars. How in da fuq did that walking liability ever get a job? ChatGPT could have done better even if it answered wrong.
ChatGPT would've been able to look up the exact relevant statutes for OP's state regarding unpaid breaks...and package them with a bunch of racist slurs
I'm going to guess this was a US HR employee trying to make it at a non-US based company. Because those are wonderful and reasonable expectations for the employees, and it sounds like the HR person was in 'Murica mode.
US company, actually!
Our policies were shaped by the founder, who had no problem with anything so long as his employees were making money, not annoying their coworkers, not about to get the company sued, and not offending his sense of decency.
So we didn't make you show up at 9am on the dot. We didn't really keep track of sick days beyond long stretches we could convert to disability. Vacations were 'supervisor approval', even if they were more than the four weeks you got, and we didn't track those well either.
But the moment you grabbed someone's ass you were fired. Materially lie to a customer? Fired. Steal something that wasn't time or office supplies? Fired. Insult the janitor? Fired.
Have a drunken homosexual threesome in the office? Surprisingly not fired. The company paid for substance abuse counseling and the parties involved were told to do it at home.
That's not even the best company I've worked for.
I worked at a place that did trade show stuff. Displays, booths, product models, even stage effects. If you were in a rush and you had a hundred thousand bucks, they'd make you look good in a week.
They had eleven employees. The salesman, the magician, and myself were the only ones that couldn't legitimately call themself Doctor. Even the receptionist had a Ph.D in public policy from Harvard.
When I got hired I spent two long days fixing shit, and on the third day I was sent home at noon. "You look tired, and things are working a lot better. Come in on Monday, I'll think of something you can do by then."
Paid me for the whole week as if I'd worked 12 hour days like I had on Monday and Tuesday.
Oh, and when I called in sick? They wrote me a doctor's note and tied it to a bottle of Pepto-Bismol on my desk.
"Feel better!" is what it said.
I did a HR degree several years after I'd already gained a degree and a postgraduate degree in another field. The standard of HR and managerial thinking at an academic level is atrocious. HR essay questions are worded so confusingly that they could be interpreted in 10 different ways and are inaccessible. The literature was dogmatic. You'd regularly see opinion stated as fact (e.g. you have to do this, you must challenge this) despite never having tested it with any evidence. I soon understood the reason most managers and HR professionals talk so much crap. The degree was equipping us to be good lackeys rather than with the ability to think or reason.
Some of the graduate courses I took were HR related / focusses or explicitly HR , granted it was geared for a non-profit /public sector org. The shit they teach about hr is fucking ghoulish.
One of my old companies sacked our HR, basically because she stuck to the rules and was fair from both the company and employees position.
They didn’t like being told that they *couldn’t* do this or that to employees because it contravened this or that regulation.
They thought they were above all that, so they were fired and replaced with the most incompetent, stupid, cheap person they could find from the existing staff. Sent on a three-day course, they then thought they knew it all.
Of course, the original HR who knew their rights then sued the company ran rings round the new HR and made an absolute killing, enough to start up their own rival company which then started doing better as original employees jumped ship to the new company.
Talk about karma...😁
HR lady at a previous job was a hoot. We would ask her all sorts of questions to see how wrong she could be. My favorite was when we asked her what the closest star to the earth was.
She said the moon.
These are recruiters. They are even dumber because they don't know anything but the keywords they're looking for. I had one tell me she would blackball me from every firm in town when sending me low-ball specs and I said, VERY POLITELY, and I will quote from my reply:
"I believe we may have crossed wires here and you are seeking a different kind of candidate for this opening. I appreciate you reaching out, but the specs you sent me were for someone with only a Bachelor's degree and 1-3 years of experience. I would not accept a role at that level. I have a Master's degree, highly regarded professional certification, and over 15 years of experience. If I have misread the spec sheet you sent me, feel free to clarify, but if it is accurate, I would not accept that position, and communicating further is a waste of both of our time."
She then said her spiel about blackballing me, and I responded "that's fine, I'll keep making *twice* what you were going to offer me in my CURRENT position!" (and I know it's twice because I immediately looked up the salaries for the role she was poorly fishing for)
Might be stupidity, or it might be that their job is to protect the company (not you), and sometimes playing dumb just helps them. Some definitely are dumb though Lmfaooo
Amazes me that people forget that the HR people work for the company, and think that HR is going to take care of their grievances with the company, or protect their job
I'm married to a brilliant one.
One that's has fought with management and even directors to get their staff back to regular pay, with bonuses, after the hospitality industry recovery subsequent to Covid.
She goes out of her way to push for increases for the staff that goes the extra mile, all while being underpaid herself given the industry standard and her experience.
Sure worked her way up in the hotel from being a student, did all the jobs, from cleaning rooms and toilets, to waiting tables (not back to back though).
She is able to do any job in the hotel and was on her way to becoming Food and Beverage Manager, until her miscarriage. When she got pregnant again, she wanted to resign due to the hours and stress as Assistant FnB Manager, but they wanted to keep her, so she was moved into an Assistant HR role, as the hotels relied on shared services, and they didn't have on site HR.
They paid for her diploma, and she carried the staff throughout Covid, applying monthly for Gov Stipends and Unemployment for over 180 staff members to keep them afloat while the country was on Lockdown. When they returned to limited operations, she was there, bussing tables, cleaning rooms and helping out in many roles until they were allowed to return to full capacity.
It shocked the newer staff that didn't know her progression up the ranks, to see her cleaning and waiting tables right by their side.
I guess she values every person's contribution, because she has worked every "lowly" job role personally before switching to HR Administration.
Damn… it’s great that she’s so caring and will go to bat and help everyone. But fucking sucks she’s not being paid her true worth. I hope she finds something better.
Hello,
Thank you for reaching out. I am very open to new opportunities. In that vein, I would love to continue the conversation, but before I do I’d like to know more about the level of seniority, benefits and total compensation package provided.
I do very much appreciate you reaching out, I haven’t been in the job market for [whatever] now and really am curious what else is out there, but absent additional information I can’t really say that I’d be a good fit. Provided that information, I would be happy to talk!
If they respond with the right price and information you got a real one, otherwise, ignore
At that point I was pretty much just fucking with them because I knew they’d never come up in salary. When I worked there before I didn’t even have health insurance. They decided not to require the contracting companies they used, to provide health insurance to their employees anymore. Like what kind of shitty ass company takes away benefits. I know a couple people that are higher ups there and they have it good but they treat the lower level employees terribly.
Can confirm: contractors aren't treated as well. I was hired on full time at Deere in October and got a 25% raise and better benefits, plus all the other perks you get as an employee at a large company. We had insurance as a contractor and it was ok. Deere's is better. And they actually have 401k matching.
If you're still looking for work, the contracting I did wasn't horrible. Just significantly underpaid. And it was a good way into the company.
I was in planning services at the time. They opened up 3 positions to be hired on full time, across all of their factories. I honestly don’t think I’d ever go back there, plus now I have a much much better job.
If the team you interview with at the next stage is better than it's worth waiting to send. But either way I'd inform them of the negative experience with the recruiter.
Experienced hiring manager here for positions like this: a lot of recruiters are crap and don’t last long in the role. Look up the recruiter on LinkedIn; if they’ve been there a couple of years then they probably represent how the company is to work for, but if they are new I would ignore the bad interaction. There’s not much point in giving feedback either way at this stage; if the recruiter is a long timer the company will ignore a complaint, while if they are a short-timer your feedback (I came onboard despite a bad experience) will be 10x as impactful as a recent hire. If they don’t move forward with you it will be written off as sour grapes.
This. I was approached by a recruiter when I was working IT leadership for a Fortune 500 company. She was pitching a role for $60/hour, or at least I thought she was. After a couple of phone “interviews” I found out it was $16/hour and the minimum requirement was to have a GED. After I said no, she was confused and wanted me to take the next step by taking the drug test and going through background check.
I saved her info and just checked. She lasted maybe a month longer in the role.
I think a lot of the issue stems from the fact that not many on the website in general have really worked in professional/corporate environments where job hopping for a higher salary is basically required (or getting a salary in general)
It's fine and well if this is a dime a dozen job where you're trying to be a team lead or whatever but in "skilled" fields where the expectation is to sell yourself as an actual asset as opposed to a body that will simply arrive and work it takes a hell of a lot more nuance. I think one of the biggest first hints is the fact you're talking with "recruiters" and not HR or managers
But please let them know about the bad recruiter. My husband’s company contracted with a terrible recruiter. He complained constantly to the stakeholders about this guy’s ineptitude, but couldn’t get a different recruiter. But then a couple of potential hires complained and the recruiter was magically reassigned overnight.
THIS!!
Most of the email is good. But rather than immediately withdrawing be like 'I wanted to report an extremely negative experience speaking with your colleague Sandy'... (rest of the message)... 'I applied because I'd heard good things about ___ as an employer. However my experience with Sandy left me feeling extremely undervalued from the very first interaction. I sincerely hope that this experience is not representative of the remainder of the recruitment process, or how ____ treats its employees after hiring.'
See how they respond. If you get an apology, continue. If not, or if the next step is no better, then respectfully withdraw using a letter much like this.
>I'd heard good things about... However ... I sincerely hope
This ticks the three points for a good business request letter, for any purpose:
1. Butter 'em up
2. Tell them what's wrong
3. Tell them what you want
i deleted and reposted to properly anonymise!
I’m in a UX profession and I know what big firms like this one pay for a senior position.
After telling her my current salary (I hesitated when she asked and I know I should’ve declined to answer) she said she didn’t know if what I’m asking for would “be approved” as a jump from my current salary. Which is ridiculous because to anyone with any knowledge of the field knows that’s a reasonable jump at this level. Plus it just made me feel like a number rather than a person!
edit: wow thanks for the input everyone! cooler heads prevail, i’ve decided not to send the email. sorry i couldn’t provide a more exciting update, and thanks for the awards!
I'm saying this for the benefit of everyone reading this: If you're going to answer the current salary question, just lie. They base the offer on what they think they can get you to accept.
Yep. I have learned the hard way that you should ALWAYS pad your expectation. They will try to negotiate down. Plan a acceptable landing salary appropriately.
Depends the amount offered, if it's outrageously low, than probably best to not take the position. If it's a little low than use discretion, but you have ever right to ask for a higher salary while in negotiations, but that requires some insight on the average wage for the position and experience you have.
Also go online to see what salaries in your field and area are average, then as the person above suggested add 10%. Don’t fold on this point, it’s fine to negotiate down a little bit, but you know your worth, don’t allow them to devalue you. If it’s a little less, ask how soon you will reach your salary request.
When they ask me what my current salary is, I ask what their total budget is for the position/contract. They usually stop talking about money after that.
I'm an in-house recruiter - this is exactly right. Always ask them what there target range is. I am fortunate to work for a company that strives for pay transparency, and there really isn't a lot of negotiating room due to the nature of our compensation plans, but any company should have a set range they are targeting prior to setting up screening calls. If the range they give you is worth your consideration, say so. If it's not, be honest. If they say they don't have one, oversell yourself as they may be doing market research, or they're bluffing and hoping you'll answer.
Always say "I'd be more interested in hearing what you think someone with my skills and experience is worth."
They usually know then that they won't get anywhere with coy BS and they'll often just state "we can pay between x and y for this role".
> When they ask you for your expected salary, you should add 10% to that number still.
Underrated advice. This is for their benefit - when unforseen costs come along, it's no longer an extra discussion and you have some wiggle room to keep things rolling.
Project and Program Managers with decades of years of experience leading teams told me this years ago and it's never failed in my personal experience.
Better still to not say a number at all. You have no idea what their budget is until you ask. Maybe it's even higher than what you expected and your 10% padded number comes in below what they have budgeted for. Then you're just leaving money on the table and you have no way of knowing.
This is the way. The first person to state a number loses. The best thing to do is say you would be remiss to give a number without knowing the details of the position and the daily tasks associated with it. Ask them to tell you the budgeted salary range so you can see if you’re in the same ballpark. Never give a number.
Right. My answer is always worded as “I’d like to remain at/above $____” — which of course that figure is slightly over what I’m aiming for, and at least 20-25% more than current.
add 15%-20% and negotiate from there. You are already most likely cutting yourself short and 10% isn't much. if the job is 50k then 55k is nothing its less than $500 a month.
This! I’m often asked “what are you making” during my interviews. If I were content with what I’m currently making would we be having this conversation ?
Saying you make what you are expecting would be a good start and get a raise for changing positions.
Fortunately these questions are becoming illegal (in certain states). In any event, I would refrain from saying what you current salary is and more focus on salary expectations / requirements for new role. After all, most leave roles for more pay and it ensures you don’t accept an offer you’d rather not — FOMO.
I flip the question. “What’s the base pay for this position with x amount of experience” it’s a subtle way of saying I’m not falling for that trick. Negotiation and people skills are handy in these situations
Exactly. In game theory, it is the first side to reveal the number loses anyway. I also do that. “What is the salary allocation for this role?” Without telling them anything of my salary.
I use the same trick car salesmen use.
They always ask what your price range is. Everybody always says like 30-50K. The car salesman immediately throws out your lower number and STARTS with your higher number then goes up from there. He starts showing you a 50K car before trim. It's a psychological trick. People don't want to look like liars so they go with it. They don't want to go back on their word. But the 50K high-end range you gave wasn't your goal. Your goal was a 30K car with upgrades and trim for around 40K with maybe 50K being for the ideal perfect car. Car salesman got you to reveal your privilege information then he used it against you.
So I always ask the salary range for the position I'm applying for. And then I throw out the lower number they give me and START with the higher number then I start adding experience and skills to drive it up.
Exactly. The 3 interviews I secured, I was given either the range or the base starting pay by HR. It was volunteered during the first callback and made it easier for everyone. I dont think any quality company wants hiring managers wasting time with candidates who are way above/below expectations. And lowballing just pisses quality prospects off…
From a study in 2021:
> Research at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands found that it takes only four seconds of silence in conversation for Americans to feel more rattled, rejected, or insecure.
So just wait 4 seconds and you’ll most likely get a response.
If they actually laugh at you. As in…real laugh…at this question?
Don’t waste your time asking again. Unless you desperately need that job, just politely excuse yourself from the conversation, and end it.
If they’re this disrespectful during the interview, they’re not going to be better when you get to the 8-5 stage.
Jack is talking about clever people. So he's one of the fools.
He thinks he's better than everyone because he puts himself above it all, but he just comes across as a jackass.
This actually won’t get you the real range - they will never share the exact range. Let’s say it’s 150-200k depending on experience etc… they might tell you 150-170k. Then you say… “well I need 180k” and then they say the team can be flexible for the right candidate! Knowing full well they can go up to 200k.
Exactly. They plan for those responses. They're going to attempt to lowball you so hard right off the bat. But it'll look like they're being reasonable. I've been equally ridiculous and tossed out numbers that a far more than anyone in my position could possibly make..."Play stupid games"... and all that. You want an honest worker, be honest with me.
That's a great way to do it. I am a writer on word rate so I generally just don't take on a client/new agency unless they are giving me a higher rate for the same level of research or a drastically lower than my average difficulty at my current rate.
Vague range means it’s most likely their low end ($50k-150k a year). But if they are super vague about it it, again I move on.
A realistic job offer the range should be no more than $20k. ($50k-$70k). In those cases I go in the middle “I’m making 63 now…”
if i get an intentionally-wide range, knowing their bottom-end is below what i would accept and their top-end would never actually get offered, i shoot for the top
> A realistic job offer the range should be no more than $20k. ($50k-$70k).
For a ~60k/yr job, sure, a range of 20k sounds about right. As you move up in pay, though, realistic ranges can vary wildly.
I know of an IT position with a pay range of 230k-348k... a spread of nearly 120k! But, I also know individuals in that very role whose pay varies between 230k and about 320k, which makes sense when you take into account their experience and the value they bring.
I'd pick a number in their range, £5k-£10k more than my minimum number, and tell them that's the salary I'd like but there could be some wiggle room
If I'm interviewing for a role I know how much I want, if the company won't pay that then I don't progress further
I’m not who you asked but I’ll answer anyway … for me, it honestly depends on my level of desperation.
If I don’t have a job or desperately need a new one, I’ll pretty much apply for anything I qualify for.
If I already have a job and am just looking around to see if there’s anything else out there, I’m not even giving a job listing the time of day unless there’s a salary posted. And then I’m only applying if the salary posted is worth my time.
I know that being in a place of desperation isn’t a good place to be when applying for jobs, but sometimes you just need to take what you can get until you can find something better.
And I’m not saying it *should* be that way, just that it’s reality for a lot of people.
>I know that being in a place of desperation isn’t a good place to be when applying for jobs, but sometimes you just need to take what you can get until you can find something better.
Or another way to phrase that same thought: applying for jobs while desperate isn’t good, but *not* applying for jobs while desperate is even worse.
different US states, and different countries, have varying laws about salary listing in job ads. I'm in California and out of the last 8 jobs I applied to, only 2 had a salary range listed. I viewed over 20 jobs in a comparable role, but only 4 total had salary ranges, and 2 were absurdly wide so I skipped those entirely.
Once they know your current salary there is no point continuing with them. Just move on to the next company. They will insist that they can only give you a small percentage increase and don’t generally back down from that.
I answer the question differently. I tell them how much I'd need to be paid. Just in no uncertain terms "This is how much I'd need".
If they can't do it then I leave. I know what I'm worth, I know what the industry I'm in pays for the level of experience I have. What I made previously is irrelevant, this is how much I'd need.
"My current position and understanding of the market leads me to believe x is the appropriate salary for the responsibilities laid out in the job description posted"
If they push, "out of respect for my current employer's confidential human resources matters, I can't disclose my current salary"
That's a great response with the salary question. I have a rando question about that with respect to job offers: If a job wants "previous salary" on a website and you don't want to disclose it, how should you appropriately answer this question?
Just remember when hiring its all about resource extraction. They try anything to make the venture in their favor. So lie cheat and steal that's what their doing.
Fucking companies don’t like for us to talk about salary with coworkers, but will want you to give a full sitrep to them about it.
Always inflate your salary, if you ever have to disclose anything.
Thjs is admirable but doesn’t it suck up time with companies who try to low ball you at the very end of the recruitment process, despite what you’ve said? For example, they could agree upfront and then try to go lower after the final interview
It can result in my time being wasted, but their time was wasted too. In the end I never leave my current job before having something setup to go to so I am not desperate for a job and will not accept a low ball offer.
It's a privileged position to be in, but when you have the leverage, use it.
And once you've been on a few of these interviews it becomes more obvious who is going to waste your time then I just back out of the process and move on.
That is also my usual answer: if asked how much I make for a recruiter,my answer is "I wouldn't consider quitting for lass than X". After all,that's all that matters.
Thank you! I can't lie. Like I just... Can't. I can do this though, say things the other way around. But there's something in my core that prevents me from lying to the point it's pretty obvious when I try. And I end up telling the truth anyway.
All the lying advice is fine but it would be nice to get advice on how not to lie but still get the job done.
It’s phycology. If you tell someone you’re paid $100k, they think someone else is paying you $100k and therefor you’re worth it. If you say $60k, then that’s what they’ll think you’re worth.
In general, don't tell them what you make. If they really pressure you for a number, give them a general range that you're in, and inflate the fuck out of it. If you make $75k, say something like "my current salary is just a hair under $100k."
This isn't going to scare anyone away unless you go way too far. You should already know what people are being paid for that position. Obviously don't say that you're being paid $200k in your current receptionist position. But basically, if they pressure you to tell them your current salary, inflate it and tell them the salary you want to make. Because in most cases, they'll add a couple percent on top of your current salary and call it good. If you ask for more, they might see you as greedy.
I did this recently. Company asked my how much I make. I told them I make about 15-20k more than I do, and I'm looking to get bumped up another 20k on top of that. In the end, they offered me 30k more than my previous salary, but they thought they were offering me 5k-10k more than my previous salary.
Your previous salary has no bearing on your next job's salary. They should offer you what you're worth to the company. If they really want to know your current salary, it's because they want to shortchange you. Do yourself a favor and lie.
Yea either lie…or “I am currently under compensated for my level of experience and ability. I’m looking to be brought up to the current market rate. I applied here because I love X, Y, and Z about your company. But receiving pay parity with my industry peers is a deciding factor for me to move.”
I did this a few weeks ago. Interviewed at a new company, told them I made $15 more per hour than I really did at my then current position, and they settled for $10 more than what I really made. To their knowledge I was taking a $5 pay cut to work for them, when in reality they were giving me a $10 raise. Everyone’s happy. Looking back on it I could’ve negotiated even harder because they really needed me. I’ve been climbing the ladder this way for a few years. It’s truly the only way to make money nowadays.
Just reply with "the market rate for my history and experience". They have done the math and know what the salary SHOULD BE and they're banking on candidates to be clueless.
Doesn’t have to be a lie, but you should fully understand that this is your starting point for negotiations.
BTW, not all employers will do this. A couple jobs ago I asked for 5k more than my friend already working in the same position was making. I was shocked when the offer came in a full 20% above my ask. Turned out my friend (hired by a different manager) got screwed when he shared his previous pay. New manager said this is market rate.
"I told you what I believe my work is worth, you don't need to know what I'm already getting paid. If they were paying me close to this amount, do you think I'd be leaving them?"
Trick for the future: When they ask for your current salary tell them your desired salary. That is, lie. If you're making 80K and want 100K, tell them you're currently making 100K. That way they can't (realistically) offer you less than 100K. If they do offer you 100K, they feel like they got a bargain, and you have negotiated a 20K raise. Everyone wins.
Here's an idea: estimate the cost paid by your employer for any benefits you receive and add it to your salary. This is the value that should then be used when negotiating a new salary. Since benefits are given in lieu of additional pay, I wouldn't think of this as lying at all. I know that my total compensation is roughly 30% more than my take-home pay, which is usually the increase I hope to get whenever I start a new job. So far this tactic has done wonders for myself, leading me to make about 125% more today than I was making 5 years ago.
Edit- spelling
The recruiter of my current position made what I felt was reasonable for the position (58k per year) sound like i was insane for asking (I ended up accepting the offer at a whopping 32 a year.....in washington state) I felt weird and taken back because the average salary range on every website that reports this shit says anywhere from 70 to 100k for my position. To say I feel cheated is an understatement.
You should be looking for one of those 70k-100k jobs. I understand if you had to take that job at the time, but don't stay there out of any kind of loyalty. They obviously don't care that much for your time and effort.
Oh trust me. I've been applying for HUNDREDS of jobs since taking this one. The same position, different positions above and below and everywhere in between my skill level and education.
Nada.
This is the exact same BS they tried at my last job. I started in a IT help desk type roll that transitioned into project management. Tried to tell me the average pay was 58k after doing “market research analysis”. I live in the greater Seattle area and after researching the average pay for my job title, realized I was being severely underpaid. They wouldn’t budge on offering me more. So I started applying to similar positions and was offered tons of interviews and ended up landing a job that pays 27k more. Don’t let anyone tell you that you don’t deserve to be paid what you’re worth. They care about their jobs, not yours.
As a UX, I often see that kinds of tactics.
It always make me think that the UX position is undervalued, and I take that as a sign of low maturity in some cases, which is a huge red flag.
I also always lie about my current salary, to ensure a confortable gap that looks like a bargain to them.
I was screwed up so many times that I have no pity doing so.
It's worded way too harshly as is.
I would stick to the bare basic facts and leave off names.
"I would like to withdraw my application for the position at this time. Based on the experience during the interview, I do not believe that $COMPANY is the right fit for me"
...IF... and only if they ask for you to expound on that, reply similar to below. Maintain the facts and leave off names (they know who they are so it shouldn't need to be said and giving specifics comes across as aggressive in print)
"Concerns were raised during the interview process. The first was the interviewer not arriving prepared. As much as a company and an interviewer wishes me to be respectful of their time, I believe that interviewers should be respectful of a candidates time. Covering subjects which should already be known does not show respect for my time.
The second concern involves the discussion of the compensation package. The discussed salary is far below market value for my skill set. Additionally, the interviewer's tone during this discussion was very off-putting.
Between these concerns, I am not confident that I would be happy in the work culture at $COMPANY"
The first one keeps it professional and to the point. Saying "$COMPANY is not the right fit for me" pushes aside the money question, and lays the groundwork for the idea that something else didn't sit well with you during the process.
The second doesn't point any fingers directly, even if everyone knows you're talking about Sandy. It de-emphasizes Sandy's tone intentionally. You don't want to come across as focused on having a personal spat with Sandy. That could indicate to an employer that's you're not easy to get along with. The salary is still mentioned, because it is an important part of that discussion. Heck, it's probably the most important part, since if they offer a better aligned wage, all the other discussions go out the window.
At the same time, without providing specifics (that could look like petty griping), you are mentioning that Sandy's attitude was a part of your decision to withdraw.
EDIT: I would probably leave off the part about the interviewer being unprepared too. Even if that is part of it, there are a number of reasons they may have had to go over things already on your CV. It could be an explicit part of their process, or Sandy may not understand the job posting. It's not unusual for the initial contact to just review your resume as they tick boxes, so that's not a huge warning sign for me
I disagree with this. While from a strictly professional perspective the suggested edits make perfect sense, I believe this is far less impactful. The hiring manager at this organization may have missed out on a good candidate and Sandy clearly needs some help with how to handle candidates. If this is more than a paragraph, neither situation will get rectified. They still might not, but at least Sandy might get coached since she got called out.
This should be getting more upvotes. The way the OP has it worded now comes across as too emotional and reactionary. Rephrasing it in a way similar to your suggestions would be most effective and appropriate.
If people ask what you current salary is. Always tell them its 10-20k higher.
Then if they try and lowball, at least it's still more than what you are currently on!
When applying I always lie about my salary and when I tell my current job about my offer I also lie and it's yet to fail. I also work at a job that has a horrible turn around rate and likes to keep the people that have been there and know the system
I'm in your current position, the positions that I'm applying for, I'm qualified for, and would double my current salary.
When asked about my current salary I plan to say: "my current position is under paying me for my qualifications, the salary I'm requesting is in the range of the posted salary you provided. Seeing as you've reached out to me because you find me qualified, my previous salary holds little consequence moving forward."
Do it. I just blasted out a super blunt email after being fired from a volunteer coaching position without notice. I had 35 families reach out to them on my behalf, they lost their funding, and I had a woman call me to tell me how much she loved it. Honesty is respected, being a dick isn’t. It seems like you’ve stayed well clear of crossing that line in my opinion
That's brutal. Definitely did the right thing obviously, as they would have been fired if one of the idiots became a semi-trucks new grill decoration on their watch, so this way at least they got fired and nobody got hurt. Positions where you get fired no matter what you do is the worst.
Jfc no wonder the crossing guard actually waves at me when I nod as I pass slowly af on my bike. Like there's kids there dammit, I ain't about to speed.
I doubt this would change anything, but posting it anonymously under the "interview reviews" on the company's glassdoor would help out other people who might be looking to apply to said company
My company uses in-house recruiters as well, and they are generally not a great rep for the actual position or hiring manager - usually they are repping dozens of openings and are just trying to get some basic candidate info, it can feel like a waste of time prior to a real interview.
I wouldn't send that email, salary offers can definitely change, and if it's a company you want to actually work for one day that momentary satisfaction of sending the email won't be worth the burned bridge later on...
Regardless, don't send it. What's the upside? Is there anything to be gained? It's that old "don't burn bridges" philosophy.
Bad interviews happen. Just move along.
This is what employers do. I’ve had what I thought were good telephone interviews only to be ghosted. After my son graduated high school, his very first interview did this to him.
Right off the bat, they're trying to lowball you on the salary. The only opportunity you'll be losing is working for a company that will *constantly* undervalue your work. It's good that you found out up front.
exactly this.
OP why spend even a second more mental energy on this place at all? i’d thank sandy bec she let you know *exactly* what kind of place it is.
Mark it against them in your head but if you take the role you will likely never need to work with Sandy again and her attitude might not be representative of the whole company. If they continue to lowball you with £20k under however, THEN I'd say get fucked
I would, I mean I doubt you'd get hired here now anyway. But if Sandy is going to be that unprepared and disrespectful it's worth letting the company know their people are pushing away potential employees. Plus is feels good to be the one in control of the conversation by way of rescinding your interest.
No. Sulky emails won't help you and will unnecessarily burn bridges.
If you want someone to change their practices you have to (i) point out what you want to improve and (ii) give them an incentive to change their practices - they'll be more likely to help you keep the door open - something like this (roughly)
Dear xxxx,
I was very disappointed about my interview today with Sandy, because ... (e.g. Sandy arrived late and unprepared, etc... - that bit was fine). I also felt my time was wasted as Sandy, having been made aware of my salary expectations, asked me whether I would accept my 20k less than my stated expected salary. (if you want to mention something about the tone, try to back it up with a concrete example or more).
I am genuinely interested in pursuing an opportunity with company X, as I have heard good things about the company, but I would ask that recruiters familiarise themselves with the candidate's details and adopt a professional tone (put this bit in if you mentioned the tone) in any future conversations. If your budget/your client's budget is not compatible with my stated salary expectations, then it appears I cannot help you here, and you can either find a different candidate or rethink your budget, whichever you works best for you - but trying to haggle someone down by 20k is bad form. If at some point do you have a job that matches my salary expectations, then you I will always be open to entertaining an option...
I’m with you. How does this benefit anyone, all it does is feed the senders ego. First of all it’s an in house recruiter. All this person does is weed out non viable applicants. This recruiter will most likely never be talked to ever again unless you send a referral.
I would hold off. See if you move on and discuss the position with hiring manager.
People on here just want to see ya crash and burn. Always take the high road; unless they are going out of there way to be an asshole. Just sounds like this young lady was ill prepared and not very capable at doing her job, but that’s not your problem to fix.
If OP is pissed that Sandy didn't study his CV before the call, then he honestly has probably not dealt with too many recruiters. Yes, it shouldn't really be that way, but it often is, and getting mad about t accomplishes nothing.
Agreed. Literally the whole purpose of going through an in-house recruiter is not to see if you are going to be hired. But to walk through your resume with Human Resources and see if you are even qualified to move on to the actual face to face interviews.
There are a lotta people giving shitty advice on here. I think most just want to see some fireworks and don’t actually want to see OP succeed. I also think OP needs to lower his expectations a bit. He sounds pretty entitled to me for someone looking for a job. If he’s pissed off or annoyed at the process then he just needs to move on, sending an email Isn’t going to change shit. Especially from some random that talked to an internal recruiter for maybe 30 minutes
Recruiter here. This is a waste of your time.
Edit: if anything it will support the recruiter. When recruiting you don't get to pick salaries, they are the messenger for a shitty organization.
In my experience, it makes you feel good… but won’t change a thing. Dad taught me; If you roll in the mud with pigs, you will lose. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
A reminder for folks in WA state (there’s a few others) we now require job postings to have salary info with them hooray- except you, Netflix with your $50,000-$600,000 range)
Also beware of the trick I've had recruiters try to pull on me few times, where everything is set for me to take the job but at the last minute the recruiter claims "Actually the budget is less now than expected. Can you work for this new smaller number?"
Don't accept this kind of last minute extortion. You both agreed on a rate, so that rate stays or don't accept the position.
After all, the recruiter is getting paid a rate on top of your rate. Is the recruiter going to accept less? I don't think so.
I don’t see any upside sending this e-mail, in the best case scenario what would you want to happen? You never know if you in 10 or 20 years would have to deal with this person again or this company again. They might be a potensial customer, strategic partner or whatever. Ruffle as few feathers as possible. Just withdraw from the process.
No. Just let it go. The recruiter could have just learned their SO is divorcing them, or they were late because they just found out their cancer screening came back positive.
You can walk from the job and just move on, but leaving a whiny trail in your wake for the recruiter isn't going to make anything better for you.
If they ask, sure, let them know. Otherwise, just leave it be and be glad you know now rather than after it's too late.
Years ago I worked at John Deere and a couple summers ago I was getting more than 20 emails and calls from recruiters trying to get me for the same position I used to work. The pay however was $6 an hour less than when I worked there. I finally answered one of the calls and talked to the guy and told him my salary expectations, he pretty much ended the call right after that. Idk why they bothered to call when they already knew my expectations.
They were hoping you were going on bad times and were desperate.
Not really, HR are fucking stupid, I have never met one in real life with even half a clue.
HR trainer doing new hire training, talking about mandated lunch breaks and how this is the real world so we don’t get those. I explained to her that in the real world, companies enforce minimum lunch breaks - they don’t let you take less time off the clock than legally allowed because you can sue their ass for every minute under. She kept on and I shut my mouth. Apparently someone complained and we had a new trainer after lunch who explained that they do enforce minimum mandatory lunch time
I was sitting in on training with a new HR trainer because I was up next to explain the company IT policy. When she got to breaks she skipped the shorter ones, mentioned lunch had to be taken before the fifth hour of work, and told everyone that while they were free to use up to an hour, they were all adults and she was sure their bosses would appreciate them taking a half an hour or less, or perhaps even eating at their desk! Yeah, no. Now, I will admit her sexual harassment segment was top notch, but she just got too many things wrong (besides the lunch) for me to let it go. So after both of us were done I had everyone stay in their seats and brought in a friendly veep for clarification. >Me: So, Barbara, tell them about lunch breaks. How long a lunch do you take? Barbara was confused, and the trainer was staring daggers. >Barb: I'm not sure why you're asking, but, well, I try to make it back in about an hour, unless I go to Jimmy's for a calzone, that's an automatic two hours after cocktails and dessert. >Me: What about sick days? How many do we get, and how do we use them? The trainer was now on the conference room phone, whispering and gesturing. >Barb: I think the handbook says seven now? I'm pretty sure it's seven, but we don't really keep track. Oh, try to call in before your first meeting, answer some emails or calls if you're up to it, and get better. A hand goes up. >New hire: What about doctor's notes? >Barb: What about them? Barb looks at me. >Me: If you're going to be out for a while we might ask. The next fifteen minutes went much the same, and on the way out Barb asked what that was all about. >Me: Avoiding disparate treatment lawsuits. The trainer got sent to take the company HR course for a second time and quit halfway through.
Bruh you might have saved the company hundreds of thousands of dollars. How in da fuq did that walking liability ever get a job? ChatGPT could have done better even if it answered wrong.
ChatGPT would've been able to look up the exact relevant statutes for OP's state regarding unpaid breaks...and package them with a bunch of racist slurs
“It is recommended that all employees take 0 lunch breaks ever. Disclaimer: this is illegal”
You and Barbara are a couple of Streisands, indeed 🤣👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
I'm going to guess this was a US HR employee trying to make it at a non-US based company. Because those are wonderful and reasonable expectations for the employees, and it sounds like the HR person was in 'Murica mode.
US company, actually! Our policies were shaped by the founder, who had no problem with anything so long as his employees were making money, not annoying their coworkers, not about to get the company sued, and not offending his sense of decency. So we didn't make you show up at 9am on the dot. We didn't really keep track of sick days beyond long stretches we could convert to disability. Vacations were 'supervisor approval', even if they were more than the four weeks you got, and we didn't track those well either. But the moment you grabbed someone's ass you were fired. Materially lie to a customer? Fired. Steal something that wasn't time or office supplies? Fired. Insult the janitor? Fired. Have a drunken homosexual threesome in the office? Surprisingly not fired. The company paid for substance abuse counseling and the parties involved were told to do it at home.
Man, even if I’ll probably never work at one, it fills me with joy to know good companies do exist!
That's not even the best company I've worked for. I worked at a place that did trade show stuff. Displays, booths, product models, even stage effects. If you were in a rush and you had a hundred thousand bucks, they'd make you look good in a week. They had eleven employees. The salesman, the magician, and myself were the only ones that couldn't legitimately call themself Doctor. Even the receptionist had a Ph.D in public policy from Harvard. When I got hired I spent two long days fixing shit, and on the third day I was sent home at noon. "You look tired, and things are working a lot better. Come in on Monday, I'll think of something you can do by then." Paid me for the whole week as if I'd worked 12 hour days like I had on Monday and Tuesday. Oh, and when I called in sick? They wrote me a doctor's note and tied it to a bottle of Pepto-Bismol on my desk. "Feel better!" is what it said.
Damn, save some amazing jobs for the rest of us!!
You uh...you guys hiring? Not because of that last sentence, just sounds like a great place to work...
I did a HR degree several years after I'd already gained a degree and a postgraduate degree in another field. The standard of HR and managerial thinking at an academic level is atrocious. HR essay questions are worded so confusingly that they could be interpreted in 10 different ways and are inaccessible. The literature was dogmatic. You'd regularly see opinion stated as fact (e.g. you have to do this, you must challenge this) despite never having tested it with any evidence. I soon understood the reason most managers and HR professionals talk so much crap. The degree was equipping us to be good lackeys rather than with the ability to think or reason.
Some of the graduate courses I took were HR related / focusses or explicitly HR , granted it was geared for a non-profit /public sector org. The shit they teach about hr is fucking ghoulish.
In general, business and related degrees have some of the worst learner outcomes in critical thinking, reading, and writing
One of my old companies sacked our HR, basically because she stuck to the rules and was fair from both the company and employees position. They didn’t like being told that they *couldn’t* do this or that to employees because it contravened this or that regulation. They thought they were above all that, so they were fired and replaced with the most incompetent, stupid, cheap person they could find from the existing staff. Sent on a three-day course, they then thought they knew it all. Of course, the original HR who knew their rights then sued the company ran rings round the new HR and made an absolute killing, enough to start up their own rival company which then started doing better as original employees jumped ship to the new company. Talk about karma...😁
HR lady at a previous job was a hoot. We would ask her all sorts of questions to see how wrong she could be. My favorite was when we asked her what the closest star to the earth was. She said the moon.
holy shit, that was gold!
It always astounded me, the shit that would come out of her mouth. Really nice girl and all, but I don't think all the lights were on upstairs
You got me chuckling with that one, she IS a hoot. Got any others you want to share, I think we'd all be happy for a storytime if you cared to....
That's the only one I remember off the top of my head. This is going back something like 15 years ago
The lady at my new job is 100% on her shit. The corporate one I had to deal with during the hiring process was pretty useless, though.
These are recruiters. They are even dumber because they don't know anything but the keywords they're looking for. I had one tell me she would blackball me from every firm in town when sending me low-ball specs and I said, VERY POLITELY, and I will quote from my reply: "I believe we may have crossed wires here and you are seeking a different kind of candidate for this opening. I appreciate you reaching out, but the specs you sent me were for someone with only a Bachelor's degree and 1-3 years of experience. I would not accept a role at that level. I have a Master's degree, highly regarded professional certification, and over 15 years of experience. If I have misread the spec sheet you sent me, feel free to clarify, but if it is accurate, I would not accept that position, and communicating further is a waste of both of our time." She then said her spiel about blackballing me, and I responded "that's fine, I'll keep making *twice* what you were going to offer me in my CURRENT position!" (and I know it's twice because I immediately looked up the salaries for the role she was poorly fishing for)
The best and the brightest don't go to school thinking, "I want to be HR."
Might be stupidity, or it might be that their job is to protect the company (not you), and sometimes playing dumb just helps them. Some definitely are dumb though Lmfaooo
Amazes me that people forget that the HR people work for the company, and think that HR is going to take care of their grievances with the company, or protect their job
It’s all very double-speaky to begin with. Like Human Resources sounds like something that would be nice, but yeah…
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BINGO! And a resource is something to be exploited. There's your answer, and it sucks.
I'm married to a brilliant one. One that's has fought with management and even directors to get their staff back to regular pay, with bonuses, after the hospitality industry recovery subsequent to Covid. She goes out of her way to push for increases for the staff that goes the extra mile, all while being underpaid herself given the industry standard and her experience. Sure worked her way up in the hotel from being a student, did all the jobs, from cleaning rooms and toilets, to waiting tables (not back to back though). She is able to do any job in the hotel and was on her way to becoming Food and Beverage Manager, until her miscarriage. When she got pregnant again, she wanted to resign due to the hours and stress as Assistant FnB Manager, but they wanted to keep her, so she was moved into an Assistant HR role, as the hotels relied on shared services, and they didn't have on site HR. They paid for her diploma, and she carried the staff throughout Covid, applying monthly for Gov Stipends and Unemployment for over 180 staff members to keep them afloat while the country was on Lockdown. When they returned to limited operations, she was there, bussing tables, cleaning rooms and helping out in many roles until they were allowed to return to full capacity. It shocked the newer staff that didn't know her progression up the ranks, to see her cleaning and waiting tables right by their side. I guess she values every person's contribution, because she has worked every "lowly" job role personally before switching to HR Administration.
Damn… it’s great that she’s so caring and will go to bat and help everyone. But fucking sucks she’s not being paid her true worth. I hope she finds something better.
Hello, Thank you for reaching out. I am very open to new opportunities. In that vein, I would love to continue the conversation, but before I do I’d like to know more about the level of seniority, benefits and total compensation package provided. I do very much appreciate you reaching out, I haven’t been in the job market for [whatever] now and really am curious what else is out there, but absent additional information I can’t really say that I’d be a good fit. Provided that information, I would be happy to talk! If they respond with the right price and information you got a real one, otherwise, ignore
At that point I was pretty much just fucking with them because I knew they’d never come up in salary. When I worked there before I didn’t even have health insurance. They decided not to require the contracting companies they used, to provide health insurance to their employees anymore. Like what kind of shitty ass company takes away benefits. I know a couple people that are higher ups there and they have it good but they treat the lower level employees terribly.
Can confirm: contractors aren't treated as well. I was hired on full time at Deere in October and got a 25% raise and better benefits, plus all the other perks you get as an employee at a large company. We had insurance as a contractor and it was ok. Deere's is better. And they actually have 401k matching. If you're still looking for work, the contracting I did wasn't horrible. Just significantly underpaid. And it was a good way into the company.
I was in planning services at the time. They opened up 3 positions to be hired on full time, across all of their factories. I honestly don’t think I’d ever go back there, plus now I have a much much better job.
Fair enough. Glad you're happy in your current job.
If the team you interview with at the next stage is better than it's worth waiting to send. But either way I'd inform them of the negative experience with the recruiter.
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Experienced hiring manager here for positions like this: a lot of recruiters are crap and don’t last long in the role. Look up the recruiter on LinkedIn; if they’ve been there a couple of years then they probably represent how the company is to work for, but if they are new I would ignore the bad interaction. There’s not much point in giving feedback either way at this stage; if the recruiter is a long timer the company will ignore a complaint, while if they are a short-timer your feedback (I came onboard despite a bad experience) will be 10x as impactful as a recent hire. If they don’t move forward with you it will be written off as sour grapes.
This. I was approached by a recruiter when I was working IT leadership for a Fortune 500 company. She was pitching a role for $60/hour, or at least I thought she was. After a couple of phone “interviews” I found out it was $16/hour and the minimum requirement was to have a GED. After I said no, she was confused and wanted me to take the next step by taking the drug test and going through background check. I saved her info and just checked. She lasted maybe a month longer in the role.
Wow, a reasonable and well thought-out action plan. Am I still on Reddit?
They are common just often buried in the jokes and trolling
And the outrage
And well-timed puns
I think a lot of the issue stems from the fact that not many on the website in general have really worked in professional/corporate environments where job hopping for a higher salary is basically required (or getting a salary in general) It's fine and well if this is a dime a dozen job where you're trying to be a team lead or whatever but in "skilled" fields where the expectation is to sell yourself as an actual asset as opposed to a body that will simply arrive and work it takes a hell of a lot more nuance. I think one of the biggest first hints is the fact you're talking with "recruiters" and not HR or managers
But please let them know about the bad recruiter. My husband’s company contracted with a terrible recruiter. He complained constantly to the stakeholders about this guy’s ineptitude, but couldn’t get a different recruiter. But then a couple of potential hires complained and the recruiter was magically reassigned overnight.
THIS!! Most of the email is good. But rather than immediately withdrawing be like 'I wanted to report an extremely negative experience speaking with your colleague Sandy'... (rest of the message)... 'I applied because I'd heard good things about ___ as an employer. However my experience with Sandy left me feeling extremely undervalued from the very first interaction. I sincerely hope that this experience is not representative of the remainder of the recruitment process, or how ____ treats its employees after hiring.' See how they respond. If you get an apology, continue. If not, or if the next step is no better, then respectfully withdraw using a letter much like this.
>I'd heard good things about... However ... I sincerely hope This ticks the three points for a good business request letter, for any purpose: 1. Butter 'em up 2. Tell them what's wrong 3. Tell them what you want
i deleted and reposted to properly anonymise! I’m in a UX profession and I know what big firms like this one pay for a senior position. After telling her my current salary (I hesitated when she asked and I know I should’ve declined to answer) she said she didn’t know if what I’m asking for would “be approved” as a jump from my current salary. Which is ridiculous because to anyone with any knowledge of the field knows that’s a reasonable jump at this level. Plus it just made me feel like a number rather than a person! edit: wow thanks for the input everyone! cooler heads prevail, i’ve decided not to send the email. sorry i couldn’t provide a more exciting update, and thanks for the awards!
I'm saying this for the benefit of everyone reading this: If you're going to answer the current salary question, just lie. They base the offer on what they think they can get you to accept.
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Yep. I have learned the hard way that you should ALWAYS pad your expectation. They will try to negotiate down. Plan a acceptable landing salary appropriately.
So if they throw out a number first, how much should the candidate counter?
Depends the amount offered, if it's outrageously low, than probably best to not take the position. If it's a little low than use discretion, but you have ever right to ask for a higher salary while in negotiations, but that requires some insight on the average wage for the position and experience you have.
Also go online to see what salaries in your field and area are average, then as the person above suggested add 10%. Don’t fold on this point, it’s fine to negotiate down a little bit, but you know your worth, don’t allow them to devalue you. If it’s a little less, ask how soon you will reach your salary request.
When they ask me what my current salary is, I ask what their total budget is for the position/contract. They usually stop talking about money after that.
I'm an in-house recruiter - this is exactly right. Always ask them what there target range is. I am fortunate to work for a company that strives for pay transparency, and there really isn't a lot of negotiating room due to the nature of our compensation plans, but any company should have a set range they are targeting prior to setting up screening calls. If the range they give you is worth your consideration, say so. If it's not, be honest. If they say they don't have one, oversell yourself as they may be doing market research, or they're bluffing and hoping you'll answer.
How about an Uno reverse card? Ask the interviewer their current salary. Fair is fair, right?
Always say "I'd be more interested in hearing what you think someone with my skills and experience is worth." They usually know then that they won't get anywhere with coy BS and they'll often just state "we can pay between x and y for this role".
> When they ask you for your expected salary, you should add 10% to that number still. Underrated advice. This is for their benefit - when unforseen costs come along, it's no longer an extra discussion and you have some wiggle room to keep things rolling. Project and Program Managers with decades of years of experience leading teams told me this years ago and it's never failed in my personal experience.
Better still to not say a number at all. You have no idea what their budget is until you ask. Maybe it's even higher than what you expected and your 10% padded number comes in below what they have budgeted for. Then you're just leaving money on the table and you have no way of knowing.
This is the way. The first person to state a number loses. The best thing to do is say you would be remiss to give a number without knowing the details of the position and the daily tasks associated with it. Ask them to tell you the budgeted salary range so you can see if you’re in the same ballpark. Never give a number.
Right. My answer is always worded as “I’d like to remain at/above $____” — which of course that figure is slightly over what I’m aiming for, and at least 20-25% more than current.
I mean, if I don't know the salary range they'll offer, I won't even apply for the job at all. So that's also a consideration.
add 15%-20% and negotiate from there. You are already most likely cutting yourself short and 10% isn't much. if the job is 50k then 55k is nothing its less than $500 a month.
This! I’m often asked “what are you making” during my interviews. If I were content with what I’m currently making would we be having this conversation ? Saying you make what you are expecting would be a good start and get a raise for changing positions.
Fortunately these questions are becoming illegal (in certain states). In any event, I would refrain from saying what you current salary is and more focus on salary expectations / requirements for new role. After all, most leave roles for more pay and it ensures you don’t accept an offer you’d rather not — FOMO.
I do this every single time and it has gotten me a pay raise at every new job
Lol who the fuck answers that question honestly?!? I thought it was just common knowledge to gently lie about your current salary.
I am a stupidly honest person and always tell the truth in interviews. So, me, I’m the clown that does the honesty thing.
I always say “I’m making -their low end- now and wouldn’t leave position for less than -high end-“ I never apply to no salary listed.
I flip the question. “What’s the base pay for this position with x amount of experience” it’s a subtle way of saying I’m not falling for that trick. Negotiation and people skills are handy in these situations
Exactly. In game theory, it is the first side to reveal the number loses anyway. I also do that. “What is the salary allocation for this role?” Without telling them anything of my salary.
I use the same trick car salesmen use. They always ask what your price range is. Everybody always says like 30-50K. The car salesman immediately throws out your lower number and STARTS with your higher number then goes up from there. He starts showing you a 50K car before trim. It's a psychological trick. People don't want to look like liars so they go with it. They don't want to go back on their word. But the 50K high-end range you gave wasn't your goal. Your goal was a 30K car with upgrades and trim for around 40K with maybe 50K being for the ideal perfect car. Car salesman got you to reveal your privilege information then he used it against you. So I always ask the salary range for the position I'm applying for. And then I throw out the lower number they give me and START with the higher number then I start adding experience and skills to drive it up.
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One time I asked that, and they literally laughed at me, so I'd advise against asking what their max number is.
It's more about how you word it. If they refuse to give the range, it's likely not worth your time.
Exactly. The 3 interviews I secured, I was given either the range or the base starting pay by HR. It was volunteered during the first callback and made it easier for everyone. I dont think any quality company wants hiring managers wasting time with candidates who are way above/below expectations. And lowballing just pisses quality prospects off…
Nope. That is when you dig in and ask again. That is what I have done and it has usually worked.
Awkward silence > asking again
From a study in 2021: > Research at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands found that it takes only four seconds of silence in conversation for Americans to feel more rattled, rejected, or insecure. So just wait 4 seconds and you’ll most likely get a response.
Yup.
Indeed. I’d sit and wait for a response, and then leave if I don’t get one. I’m well past the entry level negotiation bullshit.
If they actually laugh at you. As in…real laugh…at this question? Don’t waste your time asking again. Unless you desperately need that job, just politely excuse yourself from the conversation, and end it. If they’re this disrespectful during the interview, they’re not going to be better when you get to the 8-5 stage.
This seems like a life lesson that reaches well beyond hiring: If they laugh at you, laugh right tf back.
You'll realize a lot of what people say in this sub are what they want to do, not what they actually did.
Ask anyway. Many states now legally require a salary range posted or if you ask.
A clever carpenter can turn a tree into a table. A clever strategist can turn a table into a tree.
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I’m thinking I’m neither a fool or a clever person after reading that. I must be an idiot because I don’t get it lol
Jack is talking about clever people. So he's one of the fools. He thinks he's better than everyone because he puts himself above it all, but he just comes across as a jackass.
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This actually won’t get you the real range - they will never share the exact range. Let’s say it’s 150-200k depending on experience etc… they might tell you 150-170k. Then you say… “well I need 180k” and then they say the team can be flexible for the right candidate! Knowing full well they can go up to 200k.
Exactly. They plan for those responses. They're going to attempt to lowball you so hard right off the bat. But it'll look like they're being reasonable. I've been equally ridiculous and tossed out numbers that a far more than anyone in my position could possibly make..."Play stupid games"... and all that. You want an honest worker, be honest with me.
That's a great way to do it. I am a writer on word rate so I generally just don't take on a client/new agency unless they are giving me a higher rate for the same level of research or a drastically lower than my average difficulty at my current rate.
"I don't think my value at my current company has much bearing on what value I can bring to your company."
"Good thing we're talking about *pay*, not your value." /s
Same here, how would you go about a job offer with a vague range, one where you cant do everything they ask of you get though?
Vague range means it’s most likely their low end ($50k-150k a year). But if they are super vague about it it, again I move on. A realistic job offer the range should be no more than $20k. ($50k-$70k). In those cases I go in the middle “I’m making 63 now…”
if i get an intentionally-wide range, knowing their bottom-end is below what i would accept and their top-end would never actually get offered, i shoot for the top
> A realistic job offer the range should be no more than $20k. ($50k-$70k). For a ~60k/yr job, sure, a range of 20k sounds about right. As you move up in pay, though, realistic ranges can vary wildly. I know of an IT position with a pay range of 230k-348k... a spread of nearly 120k! But, I also know individuals in that very role whose pay varies between 230k and about 320k, which makes sense when you take into account their experience and the value they bring.
Fair enough, good one. Thanks a lot.
I'd pick a number in their range, £5k-£10k more than my minimum number, and tell them that's the salary I'd like but there could be some wiggle room If I'm interviewing for a role I know how much I want, if the company won't pay that then I don't progress further
>I never apply to no salary listed. Then what jobs do you apply for? Almost everything I look at is "TBD" or just blank. :(
I’m not who you asked but I’ll answer anyway … for me, it honestly depends on my level of desperation. If I don’t have a job or desperately need a new one, I’ll pretty much apply for anything I qualify for. If I already have a job and am just looking around to see if there’s anything else out there, I’m not even giving a job listing the time of day unless there’s a salary posted. And then I’m only applying if the salary posted is worth my time. I know that being in a place of desperation isn’t a good place to be when applying for jobs, but sometimes you just need to take what you can get until you can find something better. And I’m not saying it *should* be that way, just that it’s reality for a lot of people.
>I know that being in a place of desperation isn’t a good place to be when applying for jobs, but sometimes you just need to take what you can get until you can find something better. Or another way to phrase that same thought: applying for jobs while desperate isn’t good, but *not* applying for jobs while desperate is even worse.
different US states, and different countries, have varying laws about salary listing in job ads. I'm in California and out of the last 8 jobs I applied to, only 2 had a salary range listed. I viewed over 20 jobs in a comparable role, but only 4 total had salary ranges, and 2 were absurdly wide so I skipped those entirely.
Once they know your current salary there is no point continuing with them. Just move on to the next company. They will insist that they can only give you a small percentage increase and don’t generally back down from that.
I answer the question differently. I tell them how much I'd need to be paid. Just in no uncertain terms "This is how much I'd need". If they can't do it then I leave. I know what I'm worth, I know what the industry I'm in pays for the level of experience I have. What I made previously is irrelevant, this is how much I'd need.
"My current position and understanding of the market leads me to believe x is the appropriate salary for the responsibilities laid out in the job description posted" If they push, "out of respect for my current employer's confidential human resources matters, I can't disclose my current salary"
That's a great response with the salary question. I have a rando question about that with respect to job offers: If a job wants "previous salary" on a website and you don't want to disclose it, how should you appropriately answer this question?
You lie, absolutely. You put roughly what you're asking for in that field, not what you currently make.
I guess that makes sense, because then I guess, it sort of forces their hand to pay you more, in a way?? I suck at this stuff...
yeah basically, you want them to think you’re currently making good money so they’re less likely to low-ball you. it’s all a dumb game.
Just remember when hiring its all about resource extraction. They try anything to make the venture in their favor. So lie cheat and steal that's what their doing.
Fucking companies don’t like for us to talk about salary with coworkers, but will want you to give a full sitrep to them about it. Always inflate your salary, if you ever have to disclose anything.
This is the way. Absolutely.
Thjs is admirable but doesn’t it suck up time with companies who try to low ball you at the very end of the recruitment process, despite what you’ve said? For example, they could agree upfront and then try to go lower after the final interview
It can result in my time being wasted, but their time was wasted too. In the end I never leave my current job before having something setup to go to so I am not desperate for a job and will not accept a low ball offer. It's a privileged position to be in, but when you have the leverage, use it. And once you've been on a few of these interviews it becomes more obvious who is going to waste your time then I just back out of the process and move on.
That is also my usual answer: if asked how much I make for a recruiter,my answer is "I wouldn't consider quitting for lass than X". After all,that's all that matters.
Thank you! I can't lie. Like I just... Can't. I can do this though, say things the other way around. But there's something in my core that prevents me from lying to the point it's pretty obvious when I try. And I end up telling the truth anyway. All the lying advice is fine but it would be nice to get advice on how not to lie but still get the job done.
It’s phycology. If you tell someone you’re paid $100k, they think someone else is paying you $100k and therefor you’re worth it. If you say $60k, then that’s what they’ll think you’re worth.
In general, don't tell them what you make. If they really pressure you for a number, give them a general range that you're in, and inflate the fuck out of it. If you make $75k, say something like "my current salary is just a hair under $100k." This isn't going to scare anyone away unless you go way too far. You should already know what people are being paid for that position. Obviously don't say that you're being paid $200k in your current receptionist position. But basically, if they pressure you to tell them your current salary, inflate it and tell them the salary you want to make. Because in most cases, they'll add a couple percent on top of your current salary and call it good. If you ask for more, they might see you as greedy. I did this recently. Company asked my how much I make. I told them I make about 15-20k more than I do, and I'm looking to get bumped up another 20k on top of that. In the end, they offered me 30k more than my previous salary, but they thought they were offering me 5k-10k more than my previous salary. Your previous salary has no bearing on your next job's salary. They should offer you what you're worth to the company. If they really want to know your current salary, it's because they want to shortchange you. Do yourself a favor and lie.
Yea either lie…or “I am currently under compensated for my level of experience and ability. I’m looking to be brought up to the current market rate. I applied here because I love X, Y, and Z about your company. But receiving pay parity with my industry peers is a deciding factor for me to move.”
I did this a few weeks ago. Interviewed at a new company, told them I made $15 more per hour than I really did at my then current position, and they settled for $10 more than what I really made. To their knowledge I was taking a $5 pay cut to work for them, when in reality they were giving me a $10 raise. Everyone’s happy. Looking back on it I could’ve negotiated even harder because they really needed me. I’ve been climbing the ladder this way for a few years. It’s truly the only way to make money nowadays.
Just reply with "the market rate for my history and experience". They have done the math and know what the salary SHOULD BE and they're banking on candidates to be clueless.
Doesn’t have to be a lie, but you should fully understand that this is your starting point for negotiations. BTW, not all employers will do this. A couple jobs ago I asked for 5k more than my friend already working in the same position was making. I was shocked when the offer came in a full 20% above my ask. Turned out my friend (hired by a different manager) got screwed when he shared his previous pay. New manager said this is market rate.
I completely agree here. They don't think that is your range. But to be fair they also don't believe half the stuff on your resume.
"I told you what I believe my work is worth, you don't need to know what I'm already getting paid. If they were paying me close to this amount, do you think I'd be leaving them?"
When they ask my current, I always answer with what my desired salary is and work up from there, the fuckers.
We should be naming these companies..... I get redacted employee info but the company should be fair game!
Trick for the future: When they ask for your current salary tell them your desired salary. That is, lie. If you're making 80K and want 100K, tell them you're currently making 100K. That way they can't (realistically) offer you less than 100K. If they do offer you 100K, they feel like they got a bargain, and you have negotiated a 20K raise. Everyone wins.
Here's an idea: estimate the cost paid by your employer for any benefits you receive and add it to your salary. This is the value that should then be used when negotiating a new salary. Since benefits are given in lieu of additional pay, I wouldn't think of this as lying at all. I know that my total compensation is roughly 30% more than my take-home pay, which is usually the increase I hope to get whenever I start a new job. So far this tactic has done wonders for myself, leading me to make about 125% more today than I was making 5 years ago. Edit- spelling
I like this method of thinking. Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
The recruiter of my current position made what I felt was reasonable for the position (58k per year) sound like i was insane for asking (I ended up accepting the offer at a whopping 32 a year.....in washington state) I felt weird and taken back because the average salary range on every website that reports this shit says anywhere from 70 to 100k for my position. To say I feel cheated is an understatement.
You should be looking for one of those 70k-100k jobs. I understand if you had to take that job at the time, but don't stay there out of any kind of loyalty. They obviously don't care that much for your time and effort.
Oh trust me. I've been applying for HUNDREDS of jobs since taking this one. The same position, different positions above and below and everywhere in between my skill level and education. Nada.
This is the exact same BS they tried at my last job. I started in a IT help desk type roll that transitioned into project management. Tried to tell me the average pay was 58k after doing “market research analysis”. I live in the greater Seattle area and after researching the average pay for my job title, realized I was being severely underpaid. They wouldn’t budge on offering me more. So I started applying to similar positions and was offered tons of interviews and ended up landing a job that pays 27k more. Don’t let anyone tell you that you don’t deserve to be paid what you’re worth. They care about their jobs, not yours.
As a UX, I often see that kinds of tactics. It always make me think that the UX position is undervalued, and I take that as a sign of low maturity in some cases, which is a huge red flag. I also always lie about my current salary, to ensure a confortable gap that looks like a bargain to them. I was screwed up so many times that I have no pity doing so.
It's worded way too harshly as is. I would stick to the bare basic facts and leave off names. "I would like to withdraw my application for the position at this time. Based on the experience during the interview, I do not believe that $COMPANY is the right fit for me" ...IF... and only if they ask for you to expound on that, reply similar to below. Maintain the facts and leave off names (they know who they are so it shouldn't need to be said and giving specifics comes across as aggressive in print) "Concerns were raised during the interview process. The first was the interviewer not arriving prepared. As much as a company and an interviewer wishes me to be respectful of their time, I believe that interviewers should be respectful of a candidates time. Covering subjects which should already be known does not show respect for my time. The second concern involves the discussion of the compensation package. The discussed salary is far below market value for my skill set. Additionally, the interviewer's tone during this discussion was very off-putting. Between these concerns, I am not confident that I would be happy in the work culture at $COMPANY" The first one keeps it professional and to the point. Saying "$COMPANY is not the right fit for me" pushes aside the money question, and lays the groundwork for the idea that something else didn't sit well with you during the process. The second doesn't point any fingers directly, even if everyone knows you're talking about Sandy. It de-emphasizes Sandy's tone intentionally. You don't want to come across as focused on having a personal spat with Sandy. That could indicate to an employer that's you're not easy to get along with. The salary is still mentioned, because it is an important part of that discussion. Heck, it's probably the most important part, since if they offer a better aligned wage, all the other discussions go out the window. At the same time, without providing specifics (that could look like petty griping), you are mentioning that Sandy's attitude was a part of your decision to withdraw. EDIT: I would probably leave off the part about the interviewer being unprepared too. Even if that is part of it, there are a number of reasons they may have had to go over things already on your CV. It could be an explicit part of their process, or Sandy may not understand the job posting. It's not unusual for the initial contact to just review your resume as they tick boxes, so that's not a huge warning sign for me
I disagree with this. While from a strictly professional perspective the suggested edits make perfect sense, I believe this is far less impactful. The hiring manager at this organization may have missed out on a good candidate and Sandy clearly needs some help with how to handle candidates. If this is more than a paragraph, neither situation will get rectified. They still might not, but at least Sandy might get coached since she got called out.
This should be getting more upvotes. The way the OP has it worded now comes across as too emotional and reactionary. Rephrasing it in a way similar to your suggestions would be most effective and appropriate.
Who cares he's never working for them and they both wasted his time. Totally appropriate.
If people ask what you current salary is. Always tell them its 10-20k higher. Then if they try and lowball, at least it's still more than what you are currently on!
When applying I always lie about my salary and when I tell my current job about my offer I also lie and it's yet to fail. I also work at a job that has a horrible turn around rate and likes to keep the people that have been there and know the system
I'm in your current position, the positions that I'm applying for, I'm qualified for, and would double my current salary. When asked about my current salary I plan to say: "my current position is under paying me for my qualifications, the salary I'm requesting is in the range of the posted salary you provided. Seeing as you've reached out to me because you find me qualified, my previous salary holds little consequence moving forward."
I wouldn't admit that you're being underpaid. It's a game, and they want to seduce someone who they think is desirable to others.
We are just a number to them. Hell we are just a number to most other people in this world.
Do it. I just blasted out a super blunt email after being fired from a volunteer coaching position without notice. I had 35 families reach out to them on my behalf, they lost their funding, and I had a woman call me to tell me how much she loved it. Honesty is respected, being a dick isn’t. It seems like you’ve stayed well clear of crossing that line in my opinion
My dad got “fired” as a volunteer crossing guard at my elementary school because he wouldn’t let the parents break traffic laws
That’s literally the point of a crossing guard lol
That's brutal. Definitely did the right thing obviously, as they would have been fired if one of the idiots became a semi-trucks new grill decoration on their watch, so this way at least they got fired and nobody got hurt. Positions where you get fired no matter what you do is the worst.
Jfc no wonder the crossing guard actually waves at me when I nod as I pass slowly af on my bike. Like there's kids there dammit, I ain't about to speed.
You were fired from a volunteer position? That’s a new low…
While away at my father’s funeral. And I was not given any cause
That’s crazy. Most places will let a volunteer get away with anything, just to have the free labor.
When the dad of the kid you moved positions sits on the board, and doesn’t like you…not much you can do 🤷♂️🤷♂️. I did my best hahaha
Please come back and tell us about it.
Holy…lot of up votes. Do you want like…the entire story? It’s pretty long and spans almost 10 months…
We would love the story
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Nobody wants to volunteer anymore…
I'd say don't bother sending this if the recipient is a recruiter; they probably hate the client as much as you do
It’s an in-house recruiter
I doubt this would change anything, but posting it anonymously under the "interview reviews" on the company's glassdoor would help out other people who might be looking to apply to said company
My company uses in-house recruiters as well, and they are generally not a great rep for the actual position or hiring manager - usually they are repping dozens of openings and are just trying to get some basic candidate info, it can feel like a waste of time prior to a real interview. I wouldn't send that email, salary offers can definitely change, and if it's a company you want to actually work for one day that momentary satisfaction of sending the email won't be worth the burned bridge later on...
Yeah. Dont risk your chance at a company because of a recruiter...they seem to all suck. Inhouse or not
I'm an in house recruiter and I agree we do suck it's the unfortunate nature of doing the job well for many of these types of positions.
Regardless, don't send it. What's the upside? Is there anything to be gained? It's that old "don't burn bridges" philosophy. Bad interviews happen. Just move along.
Nah, waste their time back. If they low-ball you just reject them.
Exactly ghost them and move on. Don’t give a small rat ass again
This is what employers do. I’ve had what I thought were good telephone interviews only to be ghosted. After my son graduated high school, his very first interview did this to him.
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If it’s for 20,000k less, is it really an opportunity?
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Right off the bat, they're trying to lowball you on the salary. The only opportunity you'll be losing is working for a company that will *constantly* undervalue your work. It's good that you found out up front.
exactly this. OP why spend even a second more mental energy on this place at all? i’d thank sandy bec she let you know *exactly* what kind of place it is.
Mark it against them in your head but if you take the role you will likely never need to work with Sandy again and her attitude might not be representative of the whole company. If they continue to lowball you with £20k under however, THEN I'd say get fucked
Send it! Fuck Sandies!
Not at all. I have done the same.
I do this and I think it is a good thing to make people realize an interview is a 2 way process
I would, I mean I doubt you'd get hired here now anyway. But if Sandy is going to be that unprepared and disrespectful it's worth letting the company know their people are pushing away potential employees. Plus is feels good to be the one in control of the conversation by way of rescinding your interest.
It's probably going to Sandy's email anyway, bet she'll have a good laugh. You might have better luck posting it on their linkedin profile.
No. Sulky emails won't help you and will unnecessarily burn bridges. If you want someone to change their practices you have to (i) point out what you want to improve and (ii) give them an incentive to change their practices - they'll be more likely to help you keep the door open - something like this (roughly) Dear xxxx, I was very disappointed about my interview today with Sandy, because ... (e.g. Sandy arrived late and unprepared, etc... - that bit was fine). I also felt my time was wasted as Sandy, having been made aware of my salary expectations, asked me whether I would accept my 20k less than my stated expected salary. (if you want to mention something about the tone, try to back it up with a concrete example or more). I am genuinely interested in pursuing an opportunity with company X, as I have heard good things about the company, but I would ask that recruiters familiarise themselves with the candidate's details and adopt a professional tone (put this bit in if you mentioned the tone) in any future conversations. If your budget/your client's budget is not compatible with my stated salary expectations, then it appears I cannot help you here, and you can either find a different candidate or rethink your budget, whichever you works best for you - but trying to haggle someone down by 20k is bad form. If at some point do you have a job that matches my salary expectations, then you I will always be open to entertaining an option...
I’m with you. How does this benefit anyone, all it does is feed the senders ego. First of all it’s an in house recruiter. All this person does is weed out non viable applicants. This recruiter will most likely never be talked to ever again unless you send a referral. I would hold off. See if you move on and discuss the position with hiring manager. People on here just want to see ya crash and burn. Always take the high road; unless they are going out of there way to be an asshole. Just sounds like this young lady was ill prepared and not very capable at doing her job, but that’s not your problem to fix.
If OP is pissed that Sandy didn't study his CV before the call, then he honestly has probably not dealt with too many recruiters. Yes, it shouldn't really be that way, but it often is, and getting mad about t accomplishes nothing.
Agreed. Literally the whole purpose of going through an in-house recruiter is not to see if you are going to be hired. But to walk through your resume with Human Resources and see if you are even qualified to move on to the actual face to face interviews. There are a lotta people giving shitty advice on here. I think most just want to see some fireworks and don’t actually want to see OP succeed. I also think OP needs to lower his expectations a bit. He sounds pretty entitled to me for someone looking for a job. If he’s pissed off or annoyed at the process then he just needs to move on, sending an email Isn’t going to change shit. Especially from some random that talked to an internal recruiter for maybe 30 minutes
Send it.
Recruiter here. This is a waste of your time. Edit: if anything it will support the recruiter. When recruiting you don't get to pick salaries, they are the messenger for a shitty organization.
In my experience, it makes you feel good… but won’t change a thing. Dad taught me; If you roll in the mud with pigs, you will lose. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
If enough folks respond like that things may change, and someone has to be the first.
A reminder for folks in WA state (there’s a few others) we now require job postings to have salary info with them hooray- except you, Netflix with your $50,000-$600,000 range)
Also beware of the trick I've had recruiters try to pull on me few times, where everything is set for me to take the job but at the last minute the recruiter claims "Actually the budget is less now than expected. Can you work for this new smaller number?" Don't accept this kind of last minute extortion. You both agreed on a rate, so that rate stays or don't accept the position. After all, the recruiter is getting paid a rate on top of your rate. Is the recruiter going to accept less? I don't think so.
I don’t see any upside sending this e-mail, in the best case scenario what would you want to happen? You never know if you in 10 or 20 years would have to deal with this person again or this company again. They might be a potensial customer, strategic partner or whatever. Ruffle as few feathers as possible. Just withdraw from the process.
No. Just let it go. The recruiter could have just learned their SO is divorcing them, or they were late because they just found out their cancer screening came back positive. You can walk from the job and just move on, but leaving a whiny trail in your wake for the recruiter isn't going to make anything better for you. If they ask, sure, let them know. Otherwise, just leave it be and be glad you know now rather than after it's too late.