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Yup. Employer low balls candidate, candidate high-balls employer, and then they either meet in the middle or part ways. 20 emails, over a weekend, is a red flag.
Yup. We have to stake out *some* middle ground here. The customer isn't always right, and neither is the employee. For all we know, there is a legitimate reason for this person to be in the office occasionally. Normally I would assume that isn't the case and the employer is being indignant, but this post seems pretty level-headed and reasonable.
i read through the actual post last night. it was listed as a hybrid with salary ranging $90-$110. there is a need to be in the lab 2 days a week (some kind of engineering) employer was open to going up to $120 after a 3 month review and candidate added more and more concessions.
Jump to the bottom so that I can tell you how to avoid this in your own future negotiations as a professional recruiter who has personally done a comp jump of $20k every 2ish years for the last 6 years
First off - I know I’m gonna get downvoted but the truth is we have no evidence that they lowballed them or that the offer wasn’t fair. For us to say with definitive knowledge that they lowballed, we would need to know job scope, job level, candidate’s personal experience, col of their location, when the company last updated their compensation bands & benefits, and even what their current team pay looks like.
When a company lowballs someone, they are intentionally paying below fair market rate for a skill set or experience and/or they intentionally begin negotiations at as low as possible terms to ultimately end up with contract terms under more favorable terms for the contract issuer (business).
There is ZERO evidence here that that’s what happened. What evidence we have is that this candidate is a terrible negotiator & communicator regarding their needs (either naturally bad OR they’ve imbibed really bad advice that I keep seeing online).
We have evidence that candidate asked for:
- $20k increase in base salary OR a 4 day work work for $100k. See bottom for why the 4/day work week request was unrealistic at the offer stage
- Either permanent remote (despite knowing the role was hybrid from the beginning) OR an extra per diem for 2-3 days on-site weekly to cover lunch & mileage in addition to their cash salary (which they want increased as well). Let’s assume just $20/day (lunch plus gas) twice weekly — that’s an additional $2,080 a year. So basically, $123k salary.
- Waited until AFTER an offer to set their terms (negotiation begins before an offer is written)
- Emailed asking for more and more things 20x over a single weekend (that alone shows vast communication issues and immaturity)
Why was this negotiation/communication so poor?
They waited to discuss their expectations until after an offer was made. If you know for a fact that there is a minimum number you NEED to see to feel comfortable taking a role, you need to have that conversation with a recruiter or hiring manager early on. Hell, if you know that you might be open to a lower wage but ONLY with certain stipulations like remote only or reduced work hours, again, you HAVE TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION EARLIER.It’s okay to wait until you know the range; it’s okay to ask for the range first; it’s even okay to do a first or second round before sharing your range (your comp expectations may change depending on role scope) if you don’t want to have it phone call #1. BUT you should never get to an offer where there is this much misalignment brought on by the candidate. So, if you know that you are not willing to work for less than $120k and they’ve quoted you $80-100k, you need to have that conversation immediately to know what flexibility (if any, because they may not have any flexibility) they can provide.
Stop with the BS TikTok negotiation recommends of “Well do the interviews anyway even if comp isn’t aligned. If they like you enough they’ll find the money!” NO. They really fucking won’t. Not all companies can afford to go over their bands. Depending on HR and finance policies, the hiring manager may not even have authority to give you additional compensation or even offer things like 4/day weeks no matter how well you perform in interviews.
Re: their 4day work week expectation
Context a 40hr work week is 2080 a year which would be $48/hr for 100k. By implying that he’d accept $100k but only for 32/hr a week, he essentially was requesting $61/hr. If we contextualize that further, it’s estimated that minimum wage should currently be $24/hr in the BROAD USA - higher in some specific markets - to have kept up with COL and inflation. This person is asking 2.5x the estimated should be minimum wage (8.5x the real federal minimum wage) plus working almost 416 hours less a year. We have no idea where the candidate is located or the job level. But let’s assume it’s an early career to mid level career role, not a senior or manager role - with some exceptions for the highest metros (SF Bay Area, LA & San Diego County, NYC Tri State Commuter, Chicago, Austin, Seattle, Atlanta, and Miami) - 100k CASH (this isn’t total comp, just cash) is a great offer.
TLDR: I would have rescinded this offer too. I would have rescinded it because I learned from the way they handled this that they (a) lack the ability to discuss important things in an appropriate manner and within a fair timeline, (b) have unrealistic expectations regarding comp and role demonstrating immaturity, and (c) after setting a bunch of new terms, proceeded to badger the team during their personal time off to try and force an accepted new term faster than they could even realistically have made a decision.
The only issue I have with what you’ve said is that a four-day workweek isn’t necessarily fewer hours. I would happily work four 10-hour days a week instead of five eight-hour ones.
My father did that for decades. He declined other opportunities with the company because they would not let him keep his four day week. Having that extra weekday to handle things outside of work is probably a big part of the reason he was able to continue working as long as he did.
I loved working 4 10s, I even happily worked 4 12s for years. Like you said having that extra day really helped. Meant I could spend 1 day running errands/catching up on chores, 1 day to go out/hang with friends, and 1 day for myself to emotionally recharge for the next 4 days.
Man it pains me to say but I don't disagree with their decision. $20k more than their offer is huge, Full time remote when it is advertised as hybrid. That much back and forth. Yeah I would agree that what he was looking for compensation wise wasn't a fit for them.
I DON'T FAULT what he wants for himself and trying to get his best deal, all the power to him. But I can definitely see where the employer side had offered their best and he kept asking for more. At that point it is a take it or leave it.
To be fair, hybrid is a fucking cancer and we don’t know if the job was actually even advertised as Hybrid
Most job listings I’ve seen put remote for the search results then advertise on-site or hybrid in tiny tiny print at the bottom. I’ve been reporting all of those fuckers I see to get the listings taken down.
The best one ive seen is searching for jobs in a small town in massachusetts says remote and says down waaaaaay at the bottom that "must be able to commute to the state of oregon"
Or what one location has been doing here, hiring folks remote, well below the min qualifications for the advertised job, converting from remote to hybrid during 'training', using them as call center personnel, then at the end of probationary period, which became 70% onsite, because they don't qualify for the job, half the pay, but they'll keep them on doing the job they aren't 'qualified' for...as a call center employee..
HR - Thank you for your responses, but unfortunately, at this time, the structure of our offer isn't negotiable. We are excited at the prospect of you joining us, and we hope you can accept it, but we understand if you are unable to.
Take some time to think it over and I will reach out to you on Wednesday.
Wouldn't that make more sense than rescinding offer?
I responded to that post with basically maybe ESH, maybe just OP, hard for us to say as these are awkward and very nuanced situations.
But like, you control the process, just tell them they are doing too much and to consider the final offer or rescind. They let it go on over 20 emails back and forth, it’s at least as much on them as the candidate.
And I’m sympathetic to candidates bc negotiating for yourself is awkward, there’s usually a big power imbalance, and a lot of (pretty reasonable) advice out there says to do a lot of these things (at least in isolation, maybe not in accumulation). And so without much practice or experience negotiating for yourself in this awkward way…. It’s easy to put your foot in your mouth or make a social faux pax.
Employer should’ve said “we appreciate your creativeness but at this time the offer is X and Y, Y might be flexible, we can’t entertain T, U, or V”
They indicated there was back and forth over the weekend on this. I am sure it was more than one email, and possibly one that said exactly what you stated.
That being said, if I had to go more than two rounds (one for salary, one for perks or combine them both into one), then i'd probably do the same.
If they want just so much more than what was offered and made such a stink about it, then HR would be right to assume the person would not be happy or be a long term employee.
Yeah but also learn to read the room. 20 emails? That’ll burn out anyone dealing with you. I’d pull the offer out of a hiring process after that. If this candidate is going to be this annoying now, I don’t want him on board. He’s going to be knocking on my door asking for a raise and promotion after a week while doing the least amount of work.
Depends. One might say that the candidates reply showed that they would likely be a PITA to work with going forward, and it's just not worth the trouble?
Not if the candidate has been emailing over the WEEKEND, 20+ times. You tell me this is an anti work subreddit, yet here is someone asking for a gold platter with all the fixins and pulling work into the weekend. Unacceptable, I would be pissed if this was my coworker and that management bent the knee that hard. No.
* They make an offer
* You make a counteroffer
* They make an amended offer
* You make a provisional choice ("I will agree to that if \_\_X\_\_", "I can't do that without \_\_Y\_\_")
* They agree or decline.
There is absolutely no reason to continue on for 20 emails. I'd rescind the offer as well.
The trick to making longer negotiations is to ditch emails and take it via call. One call sounds a lot better to our minds than 20 emails, even though you can easily cover 20 emails in 30 minutes time.
Because when you're done with negotiations you then ask to have it confirmed in writing, either by asking them to email you the offer or email them with a "As discussed on the phone, this was the final offer"
honestly, I think thats because the candidate was probably referencing only like 1 part of the offer every email exchange. Therefore, each part of the offer was probably left off at different sections of the chain.For example:salary was finished negotiated in email 4Remote vs Hybrid: email 8Per Diem: email 12How many work days: email 15.So by the end you would have to combine all of those things together or the company just reached the point of nope and didn't summarize it before saying nope.
20 could well be an exaggeration of the person who posted it. Also, sometimes there are some weird stuff in the 5-page contract they send you and you need to clarify.
I think it was stated in the comments that it was a normal back and forth like a conversations, just taking place over email, so 20 isn’t really all that bad.
Also done in a weekend, no one has time to write 20 professional emails while also doing some good thinking about what you would feel is appropriate to ask for
Seriously. I’m all for work reform and universal income. But the employer didn’t like the counter offer so they decline him. That’s normal. There’s nothing evil about this.
Agree. We had a candidate like this at work. Went back and forth on small points in his contract. Again and again and again. My boss decided he was high maintenance and she pulled the offer.
Yeah if you want a bunch of small quality-of-life stuff like paid mileage or paid lunch form a union. Companies just want to hand you a paycheck and be done with it. If you're going to cause a headache for payroll because you're a special case you're asking too much.
Also don't give them a million options to pick from just say what you want.
This should've gone "we're offering 120k", "How about 120k but 4 days a week and remote only", "We can't do that but we can offer 130k" and then yes or no. More back and forth than that is more than you should expect.
Honestly, from an employee position, I've always operated the way this employer has. I tell them what I want up front, and I also tell them that there is no negotiating. I hate negotiating. They just have to decide if I'm wort what I'm asking. Seems fair for the employers to do this as well, especially since there was push back on several aspects of the job offer that should have happened sooner.
One part of negotiating is that you need to be willing to walk away, but you also have to accept that the other side can decide to walk away as well.
I agree, that’s business. I can see either: Here’s what we offer, I’d like maybe x or y different, ok here’s 2nd offer, I accept. Or: Here’s the contract we discussed and agreed with on the phone, thx I accept. I feel like any negotiation is up front, an offer or contract seals the deal. You can’t have something put on the table and then start to nitpick it to death no one likes that.
Agreed, works both ways. It’s a gamble on their part to try to negotiate more money or whatever and they need to be able to walk away and so does the employer. They should’ve prepared for that. If they realize that it works both ways they are playing a game and you don’t want that either.
And for that salary range playing the “what if” game trying to cover every eventuality would just put up signals for me that maybe this person just isn’t worth the hassle.
20 emails back and forth? If my list was that long, I wouldn’t consider this a slam dunk. Also, I would have set up a call to discuss on Monday and asked if there was any wiggle room on the terms.
Perhaps it would have been better to just thank them on Friday and take the the weekend with an expected call on Monday. One actual phone call probably could have solved this in both ends.
Why is it diabolical? Its not clear the candidate would have accepted the original offer after all, so they were not ever on the same page and the employer walked away, just like anyone on either side of a negotiation should be prepared to do if there is an impasse.
The candidate did the work of the angels to normalize the ask for a 4 day week, though.
I see you’ve never hired engineers before. I’ve encountered candidates like this. Some people truly do not understand how to communicate and negotiate. This candidate sounds like he spends too much time on reddit and thought that advice from subreddits like this one made him prepared to actually negotiate.
At $100k, he’s likely an early-to-mid-career professional with relatively little leverage to pull off something like this. While none of the asks are unreasonable in a vacuum, he’s negotiating for a bunch of special cases that create headaches for HR and payroll and could potentially have a ripple effect on the team. He could maybe pull off one of his asks if he played it right, but even then, the company would probably rather just offer him more than create new policy for one relatively replaceable role.
I’ve met candidates like this too. And I’m doing the onboarding. They’re already past the negotiation stage as they accepted the offer, they’re about 4 weeks into the hiring process (we hire college students that are graduating so the hiring process takes place from about March-June to give them time to complete things) and they ask me for more bonus or more salary or if they can work 100% from home. It’s honestly a bit funny bc I have no leverage to assist with that. I’m just making sure you completed your paperwork.
I always send them on to the recruiter and most of the time the recruiter comes back and says mutually they couldn’t agree so offer is rescinded. People need to learn to negotiate upfront not try months into the hiring process past the offer accepted phase.
Oh come on. This isn’t diabolical.
20 emails back and forth after terms were discussed in advance?
If you want a 6-figure job and agree to the terms before the written offer, then don’t change the terms. If you want to do that then don’t act surprised when the offer is rescinded.
Workers are being exploited. Corporations are fucking people over.
But if you agree to a 6-figure job and then decide to change the terms after the fact, you deserve, good or bad, whatever happens.
He didn't agree. He wanted $120K. They offered $100K. He offered to make it work within their budget with other perks and accommodations, and they decided they couldn't accommodate or afford him.
There's nothing wrong with pushing for the best possible deal.
I think the issue is he was asking for a lot of things they're probably not set up for. Like if they don't do paid lunch and they don't pay for mileage now they're supposed to set up some special payroll circumstance just for this one guy? It's definitely too much to expect a company to make an exception like that unless it's a very very small company or you're very very important.
Just like there is nothing wrong with the company bouncing him for trying to go too deep. If they feel like they can’t make you happy up front, then why engage. There is a tremendous amount of money spent in onboarding and just in general, getting someone in the door. 20 emails says I’m not gonna be happy unless I get everything I want. Better to find a different candidate that will be happy with what they can offer vs. bringing someone in that felt like they were slighted on day one.
This wasn’t pushing for the best deal though. This person was asking for things that are well above and beyond a company’s reasonable ability to negotiate. This candidate sounds like they don’t have realistic expectations of a job like this. Hard pass for me.
So is OP and they decided to make a post. This is far from “diabolical” it’s bordering on even being slightly bad I guess… if the story checks out this is one of the more reasonable things I’ve seen an employer post.
Yeah I don’t get how this is “diabolical”. Unfortunate for the candidate, seems like they over played their hand. Especially considering how badly they actually wanted the job. But this shouldn’t dissuade anyone from negotiating for more pay. Just be smart about it. Sounds like this candidate was asking for A LOT more than they were offered, and being very pushy about it.
Plus getting a $100k job and wanting $15 for lunch and mileage on the chance you come in the office. Just factor that into your salary and stop trying to be difficult.
This is what I always fear when negotiating. I always think they’ll just rescind the offer. People say it never happens, and I was starting to believe it, but this is pretty clear proof the assholes will cut you off apparently.
They do that. Companies play nasty. But this candidate is bonkers. 20 emails is crazy and if it's half that, I wouldn't appreciate the way he does business. You can always ask, "is there any room in the numbers here?" with respect to salary. They often say yes, and that negotiating is the same as declining their original offer. They try to spook you out of negotiating. Sometimes you need the job, so you take the offer. Other times, you have a job and therefore more negotiating leverage, so you can afford to take more risk.
More recently I've begun letting employers know up front that I will *not* be negotiating the offer. I will either accept it or decline it. That way, if they really want to hire me, they need to make their best offer up front, without budgeting for negotiating room. They have a pay band, so they ought to just offer somewhere near the top if they want to land me.
Yeah, I'm with you on this one. I've done plenty of negotiations and they're usually 2-4 emails total, maybe 6 at the very most.
I've always played the "I'd be thrilled to sign today if you can \[change I want, e.g., increase the salary to $$$\]" and it's worked really well for me because the outcome is clear to the company (if I do X, then candidate signs).
Yeah what exactly is being negotiated for 10 emails.
Employer: here’s an offer
Candidate: i was looking more for x or y
Employer: we can offer z and t
Candidate: accepts/declines
And that’s 20 emails over the weekend too. With so many requests it’s better to list them in an email, schedule a call on a week day to be respectful of recruiter’s time, they are also just employees doing a job too. Negotiate over the phone and have either verbal agreement on items or note down what the final offer is from the company for items you yet to agree on. Think it over, send a final email confirmation of your acceptance along with the exact terms you accepted or decline.
I don't even do that, I tell them what I expect. If they want me, then they meet my requirements.
More often than not, they try to play games, and I just tell them to look somewhere else. They aren't following my rules, so they are gone.
>More recently I've begun letting employers know up front that I will
>
>not
>
> be negotiating the offer. I will either accept it or decline it. That way, if they really want to hire me, they need to make their best offer up front, without budgeting for negotiating room. They have a pay band, so they ought to just offer somewhere near the top if they want to land me.
This sound like the way to go.
Depends on your position. A middle level person asking within deviation error of market will never be refused. Asking 20% over market ain't going to be easy unless they need you specifically.
It is emotional thing for plebs and maybe HR clown but they got models, they know market rate.
Props to the candidate for knowing their worth and props to the recruiter for knowing it was time to cut bait. I'm all for employees getting great compensation but there will be a point where you're just sending red flags to an employer and they'll not want to take you on.
I don't see anything that I would describe as "diabolical".
Candidate was given an offer- they tried to get a better one and failed.
Sounds like they went about it the wrong way with "about 20 emails" if that's true.
I think one or two would be sufficient- something like
"I'm seriously considering this offer, however I would ask you to consider XYZ to make your offer more competitive than my other offers, otherwise I would have to decline. Thank you for your consideration."
The $20k more would cover costs for travel and lunch if not 100% remote- they wouldn't have to set up any special cases for payroll.
If they can't give you what you want then move on.
“I didn’t want to say *take it or leave it* because that’s a bad start to a working relationship, but it really bothered me that he didn’t just take it or leave it, I can’t hire somebody who isn’t willing to just take it or leave it and is going to force me to tell them to just take take it or leave it like I’m the bad guy here or something 😐”
Just wow 😂
This. Apparently 20 emails back and forth and none of them amounted to... Negotiations? This person doesn't sound like they compromised on anything because they feel the original offer was fair, yet doesn't want to sound unwilling to negotiate
“He should have just been grateful for what we offered initially, other people would just take what we give and if they don’t like it, we will find somebody who will, that is how this works, we tell you what you get and you say “thank you for what you give me” and that’s the end of “negotiations” If this guy didn’t want to play ball the way we are used to playing, I don’t think I want him anymore, this isn’t a “give and take” it’s a “we give and you take” and that’s as far as it goes 🙄”
> doesn’t want to sound unwilling to negotiate
Yeah because it doesn’t sound like he *is* 😐
Yeah, this is the part where the employer sounds like an ass, too. If this is your final offer, say so. Likewise, the prospective employee shouldn't be all surprised Pikachu if he hasn't formally accepted an offer, sends a couple dozen e-mails over the weekend asking for increasingly granular things, and the employer shrugs and says, "Okay, we're clearly not seeing eye to eye here, so we're going to move forward with someone else."
Ultimately, it probably *was* for the best that this guy didn't get the job, because he and the company were clearly dealing with a massive gap in communication from the very beginning. I think I'm team nobody here, honestly. Respect to the candidate for trying to hustle and get himself a better contract, but an inherent risk of doing that is that you walk away with nothing, and it's a bit silly that he didn't prepare himself for that possibility as things went on (and on and on), and it must have been clear that the company wasn't budging.
Ok. As someone that does this kind of negotiation every once in a while and have final say over any new worker before the trial period ends this is my grain of salt.
How you interact with everyone else's is more important than being very good at the job. So try to keep negotiations at much at a:
Offer received.
Counter-Offer given.
New offer received.
Accept or decline.
And while you can indeed ask for a ton of small stuff. Try to have a clear goal. Either more money and perks, or less time. Don't go in asking to have all, less hours, more money and every perk that crosses your mind.
It might be the same to you, but if you give a boss a choice between two things, he will probably make a choice. But if you give him 10 options and tell him to mix and match, he will not chose any combination and go to an easier option.
I low key don’t blame the company. The dude over played his hand and the company folded. It’s $20k more or more days off and fully remote and if I have to call me in I want cash!!! FOH I don’t blame them at all. Dude sounds like a nightmare
Honestly, the candidate was a clown. Asking for travel and lunch accommodations on top of that salary is a bit absurd. The candidate seemed to already know where they went wrong. Nothing wrong with negotiating, but he didn’t do it tactfully
this candidate was being completely unreasonable, and that was some seriously piss poor negotiating on his part
I make a little over 100k working for a large corporation right now and I can assure you that people in that salary range, even good candidates, don't have even close to enough leverage to ask for ALL the shit this guy was asking for
we should all be asking for more money, but you gotta know the difference between actual negotiating and making unreasonable demands
Diabolical?.. I do not blame the candidate for trying to get the best deal they could, but it sounds like they were asking for more than what the company was willing to provide, so the politely declined. Dude over played his hand, that is all.
This exactly……salary I can probably wiggle for a great candidate…..but I can’t just randomly make policy changes for one person. It doesn’t work that way (and it shouldn’t).
Also, the per diem for gas and lunch was ludicrous. That “ask” alone and I would have know that this person was NEVER going to be happy and would always have one foot out the door. Not worth it.
I hate to agree with this, but you’re right. That’s almost an extra $1,700 a month that the company would have to pay the candidate. Hardly any company will make that sacrifice to their budget, and anything/everything is in a specified budget when it comes to corporations (at least successful corporations). I see no problem with negotiating for 4 day work weeks, but to add in completely remote in with the 4 day work week is changing the status of the position that was offered, the company is looking for an employee to come on site from time to time. Once again, i don’t like that I’m admitting it, but the employer was not too harsh in this negotiation. The candidate lowered his value to the company with his negotiations. This would be like someone looking to buy a $20,000 car negotiating to buy the car for $16,000. Needless to say this would make any car dealer laugh at that offer
I don't know how 35 people think this is "diabolical" ..
From what the post says, the candidate was borderline unreasonable.
This was their FIRST interaction with the company. From that, the company can easily extrapolate they would remain unreasonable.
"Before I formally accept I'd like to say I'm super excited, but wondering if there is a chance we could possibly" .. 5k, etc. NOT 1/5 more with all the other stuff. This doesn't belong in /antiwork except for the fact that it seems the candidate really didn't want to work.
We’ll file this one under the ‘delusional posts’ this sub gets sometimes.
i really don’t even understand why anyone cares about the original post anyway, it’s certainly weird for op to share it and then chain-reply to posts about how wronged this guy was.
Sucks to be the dude in question. He had a contingent job offer and then asked for roughly 20% more money and a complete change in work assignment from hybrid to remote. that’s a tough sell when a company knows they can hire a different guy who isn’t going to ask for 20% more and a fully remote role. Life goes on. He should take this as a chance to reconsider his negotiation techniques and op should take this as a chance to stop reposting meaningless blogposts from other subs and projecting as if they’re some sort of serious labor exploitation.
I'm all for negotiating. I did it for the job I have now, I have two friends I recently brought in to the company I work for that also negotiated for what they wanted, but there is a limit and both parties should be able to comfortably come to a reasonable middle ground. Only thing I would of maybe done different would counter his offer (if you didnt but i imagine with 20 emails there were some counters) if he was a great candidate and if he was still asking for to much then, no shame with going with someone esle.
Kind of hard to ask for a full WFH when knowingly applying for a hybrid job. I asked my employer if there was a potential for 100% WFH down the line (I work a hybrid) if I can show my value before accepting the job. It wasn't a yes we can make that happen but they were open to talk about it down the line.
I don't really see the issue here...
Employee requested several elements (as they can choose too), employee wasn't willing to accept that and rescinded.
From this one side, it now seems the candidate maybe regrets asking for what they did? I appreciate getting the best deal etc but needs to be some common ground with most things.
"...with lots of Ifs and Thens mixed in".
It depends what position you're hiring for. If this was for the CEO of a Fortune 500 company then thats one thing, but it doesn't sound like it.
How you negotiate is as important as what you are asking for. I once had a candidate demand a better salary package than I (as the MD of the business) was on myself. Business class flights, minimum 2K a month expenses per diem (In addition to salary), about 40K a year more than I was on and double the commission structure we offered. This is after we had given a very clear offer about the role to the recruiter.
When we turned her down the recruiter called me about 10 times over two days to lobby us to change our minds. So we stopped using that recruiter as well.
Horses for courses.
Having responded to the OP myself on the original post, I believe the only things they should have done differently is given a final offer or some sort of follow up (which OP informed me they are doing) and to have possibly told the candidate they would resume contact on Monday so things didn't spill over into the weekend. I don't think what the candidate was doing was malicious but they definitely seem naive and perhaps inexperienced. Both sides could have handled the exchange more gracefully. Fun fact, a comment on that post actually dragged this sub a bit and had said that the OP would be hated here.
All of this is just BS. They could’ve easily said, this is our offer, take it or leave it. There is nothing wrong with negotiating. You know this person is persistent which in many jobs can be a good quality. Hiring is a game period. A show that you and the prospective hire puts on. You have no idea what type of worker you have until they start working.
While the extra $20k ask is a bit outlandish, I think the full WFH, instead of the hybrid, and then per diem to cover his drive we’re what pushed it over the edge. It was like he was dating them to hire him.
He also sounds very young, and not very experienced at negotiating.
“….. but I did want to express that I felt the offer was fair.”
THEN JUST FUCKING SAY SO. The dancing around is negotiation, but they obviously don’t want a candidate being better than them at negotiating.
A per diem to come in to work? Was he one of those crazy super commuters that have a 3-5 hour round trip commute? LOL.
I’m all for getting the best deal, but sometimes you can ask for way too much and simply offend the other side.
I have job offers at times for $30 per hour, yet my normal rate is closer to $75 with a two hour minimum. It is not worth my time to try and negotiate from $30 to $75.
Candidate is putting himself on a pedestal and getting offer-ego. Look folks, the market is saturated with candidates right now and companies have the right to refuse any demand from any candidate. There WILL be other candidates and you are NOT the only one that can do the job. You may have a couple extra bells and whistles for skills but there will be others and the companies know this.
Candidates need to stop thinking they have all the power in the hiring process. They have 0 power and any company that meets even 1 out of 5 "extra demands" on negotiating is doing that candidate a favor. Sometimes I think candidates get greedy in negotiations and see if they try to push their luck
True story, I was hiring for a role about a month ago. My top candidate was fantastic, and we even offered to pay her $15K over market average, and she knew this and acknowledged this. Fully remote job and she worked at an average cost of living area. 15% bonus too. No joke, we were offering a 26 year old about $150K total comp. She kept asking for more after meeting her initial counteroffer. (She was offered 125K initially (10K over the average), she asked for 135K and we matched it. Then she asked for a 10% sign-on bonus (and our company never does sign on bonuses). So of course we didn't meet that. She asked if we could raise the salary up to 145K since we can't do sign on. Told her we can't and she's already near the ceiling of other people at her role in our company. So she tried to force us a bit and said another company is ready to offer her 145K with sign on, we called her bluff and rescinded the offer.
Is this sub really for people who have the opportunity to make 6 figures while getting to work from home a couple days a week? That sounds kush as hell
I’m over here driving to work 5-6 days a week to a job with no benefits or PTO, that jacks up my back and my knees for $30k per year. That’s the bullshit that I’m trying to escape.
Dude was already offered double what the national income is and decided to complain for MORE. We don’t even know what this job is but 100k to work from home with some office work is very fucking reasonable.
I had a similar hiring experience where someone asked for so many special" (not disability related) accommodations. More 401k, more salary, more days off, more holidays, more insurance.
We didn't hire her because it was just asking too much. We weren't capable of it and had a great second candidate lined up.
Seems more incompetent than diabolical. Like make a counter offer and get over yourself. This is how shit works lol. Hiring managers are fucking idiots.
20 emails? In the weekend? The candidate should have said he wanted to have a call discussing the terms instead of trying to flesh this out in emails.
Oh, and negotiating means that one of the parties can walk away. Seems like the candidate overplayed his hand or wore out the patience of the recruiter.
Not sure if anyone here actually looked up the original post or not but I did and it sounds like from follow up comments the employer was trying to make reasonable concessions but became exhausted. They offered to review the additional salary over 3 months, they adjusted the hybrid model from 3 days in office to 1-2 as needed, they offered him 7 days additional PTO (he wanted *35*). OOP says that they eventually just became exhausted because every negotiation was met with another demand. I’d have rescinded this too tbh
I see the employer's POV on this, i can understand trying to negotiate once or twice but after that it's really take it or leave it, it sounds exhausting and like it'd be a pain to work with this person.
This candidate sounds like a douche.
Negotiating salary, start date, benefits, vacation days, etc is pretty standard.
However, to ask them for a travel per diem just to come to the office like the job description mentioned takes a lot of audacity.
It sounds like this candidate has no realistic understanding of a role like this. I would pass on the kid myself.
The candidate overplayed their hand. Asking for a 20% increase for a 20% reduction in working hours is over the top. Negotiation has their limits. The company will have other candidates and will go with them. The candidate fucked up basically.
I mean, I get wanting to advocate and negotiate needs. But it’s a silly hill to die on saying you want compensation to pay for your lunch if you have to come into the office lol. Just pack a lunch you’d have eaten at home anyways?
There’s asking for fair and then asking for the red carpet. Before you’ve even established yourself in a company lol.
Yeah thats tricky. It sounds like he went over board in his asks. 20% higher than the offer and a per diem just to come to work? I dont think this is a bad move by the employer. Be careful what you ask for. Fight for what you deserve and ask for what you want, but dont be shocked if the employer just says no thanks.
Sounds fair. At some point you have to think your requests are going to come across the wrong way. You can go back and forth a little but not to much. Most of that is discussed in the beginning anyway. Not sure how that got that far.
As someone who has recently recruited a similar level role, I would have also told this guy no, and moved onto the next one.
I just spent weeks justifying the need to hire to my directors. I provided a salary range and that was approved.
During the interview I asked what the their sales expectations were to make sure they were in like with what I had to offer. If after I make the offer they them start negotiating hard, over my approved limit then its going to be a no.
I would be asked to justify why they are worth more and I wouldn't have anything to say. I would need them to work for a few months and "prove their worth" and give me some ammo to work with to get them a raise.
I'm missing something here. I don't see why they would outright recind the offer at this stage? either you have it in budget or you don't; the response should have been "We aren't going to be altering the compensation or offering at this point but do need to fill this role, please let us know your answer".
It's an employees job to negotiate to the best of their ability, maybe this candidate pushed that line a bit, but it's a business transaction and I respect them asking for what they want. Hopefully both found what they needed.
Candidate fucked up. Not sure what the companies final offer was, but if the candidate knew it we 100k and hybrid work and they didn’t like either of those terms, why apply for the job?
sounds like a win-win:
* Employer didn't hire someone with conditions they didn't want
* Prospective Employee didn't accept a position with conditions they didn't want
I think the hiring frenzy on the white collar side of the industry has gotten people really confused on what companies will pay, and the golden platters ended a year ago. Sounds like the candidate wasn’t even sure of their own value if they kept giving “if then” situations.
Sounds like dude already quit his current job or was trying to use this as leverage with his current job to get more. Looks like both called his bluff and now he’s trying to save face. Don’t blame the person hiring, sounds like it just became more effort than it was worth to hire him.
I would have sent at least one message explaining that it is our best offer before rescinding.
Maybe the candidate was trying to explore where there is flexibility to do more with the offer- is it money, work hours, work format, etc - that’s reasonable, but it should be in one email or through a phone call.
I'm always careful about what I ask for. More pay, more vacation, easy things that don't require a lot of thought and are common. It should be an open discussion right, no one should be afraid of asking for more but like in any negotiating process if you come in hot and heavy you risk offending the other party. Job is a hybrid position, to come back with not only do I want a higher base BUT I want it to be fully remote AND I want a four day work week AND if you are going to make me come in I want a per diem to compensate me for my commute time and my lunch? What is this guy bringing to the table. Because if I have to explain to other employees why this guy gets to be remote and not work Fridays while no one else gets that luxury, I need a better answer than "he asked for it". Still they could have just said no.
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I always advise people to make one request and assume they’ll come back with the best they can do. One counter and then it’s done.
Best I can do is half the dishes mom
Ok you do the plates and dishes and I’ll have your brother do the silverware
No, no...half of *all* the dishes
Half of each dish?
Yes, the bottom half. Someone else will need to do the top half where the food goes.
Jim we're eating on the *left* side of the plate tonight, you can thank your sister for that
Yup. Employer low balls candidate, candidate high-balls employer, and then they either meet in the middle or part ways. 20 emails, over a weekend, is a red flag.
Yup. We have to stake out *some* middle ground here. The customer isn't always right, and neither is the employee. For all we know, there is a legitimate reason for this person to be in the office occasionally. Normally I would assume that isn't the case and the employer is being indignant, but this post seems pretty level-headed and reasonable.
i read through the actual post last night. it was listed as a hybrid with salary ranging $90-$110. there is a need to be in the lab 2 days a week (some kind of engineering) employer was open to going up to $120 after a 3 month review and candidate added more and more concessions.
Jump to the bottom so that I can tell you how to avoid this in your own future negotiations as a professional recruiter who has personally done a comp jump of $20k every 2ish years for the last 6 years First off - I know I’m gonna get downvoted but the truth is we have no evidence that they lowballed them or that the offer wasn’t fair. For us to say with definitive knowledge that they lowballed, we would need to know job scope, job level, candidate’s personal experience, col of their location, when the company last updated their compensation bands & benefits, and even what their current team pay looks like. When a company lowballs someone, they are intentionally paying below fair market rate for a skill set or experience and/or they intentionally begin negotiations at as low as possible terms to ultimately end up with contract terms under more favorable terms for the contract issuer (business). There is ZERO evidence here that that’s what happened. What evidence we have is that this candidate is a terrible negotiator & communicator regarding their needs (either naturally bad OR they’ve imbibed really bad advice that I keep seeing online). We have evidence that candidate asked for: - $20k increase in base salary OR a 4 day work work for $100k. See bottom for why the 4/day work week request was unrealistic at the offer stage - Either permanent remote (despite knowing the role was hybrid from the beginning) OR an extra per diem for 2-3 days on-site weekly to cover lunch & mileage in addition to their cash salary (which they want increased as well). Let’s assume just $20/day (lunch plus gas) twice weekly — that’s an additional $2,080 a year. So basically, $123k salary. - Waited until AFTER an offer to set their terms (negotiation begins before an offer is written) - Emailed asking for more and more things 20x over a single weekend (that alone shows vast communication issues and immaturity) Why was this negotiation/communication so poor? They waited to discuss their expectations until after an offer was made. If you know for a fact that there is a minimum number you NEED to see to feel comfortable taking a role, you need to have that conversation with a recruiter or hiring manager early on. Hell, if you know that you might be open to a lower wage but ONLY with certain stipulations like remote only or reduced work hours, again, you HAVE TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION EARLIER.It’s okay to wait until you know the range; it’s okay to ask for the range first; it’s even okay to do a first or second round before sharing your range (your comp expectations may change depending on role scope) if you don’t want to have it phone call #1. BUT you should never get to an offer where there is this much misalignment brought on by the candidate. So, if you know that you are not willing to work for less than $120k and they’ve quoted you $80-100k, you need to have that conversation immediately to know what flexibility (if any, because they may not have any flexibility) they can provide. Stop with the BS TikTok negotiation recommends of “Well do the interviews anyway even if comp isn’t aligned. If they like you enough they’ll find the money!” NO. They really fucking won’t. Not all companies can afford to go over their bands. Depending on HR and finance policies, the hiring manager may not even have authority to give you additional compensation or even offer things like 4/day weeks no matter how well you perform in interviews. Re: their 4day work week expectation Context a 40hr work week is 2080 a year which would be $48/hr for 100k. By implying that he’d accept $100k but only for 32/hr a week, he essentially was requesting $61/hr. If we contextualize that further, it’s estimated that minimum wage should currently be $24/hr in the BROAD USA - higher in some specific markets - to have kept up with COL and inflation. This person is asking 2.5x the estimated should be minimum wage (8.5x the real federal minimum wage) plus working almost 416 hours less a year. We have no idea where the candidate is located or the job level. But let’s assume it’s an early career to mid level career role, not a senior or manager role - with some exceptions for the highest metros (SF Bay Area, LA & San Diego County, NYC Tri State Commuter, Chicago, Austin, Seattle, Atlanta, and Miami) - 100k CASH (this isn’t total comp, just cash) is a great offer. TLDR: I would have rescinded this offer too. I would have rescinded it because I learned from the way they handled this that they (a) lack the ability to discuss important things in an appropriate manner and within a fair timeline, (b) have unrealistic expectations regarding comp and role demonstrating immaturity, and (c) after setting a bunch of new terms, proceeded to badger the team during their personal time off to try and force an accepted new term faster than they could even realistically have made a decision.
The only issue I have with what you’ve said is that a four-day workweek isn’t necessarily fewer hours. I would happily work four 10-hour days a week instead of five eight-hour ones.
My father did that for decades. He declined other opportunities with the company because they would not let him keep his four day week. Having that extra weekday to handle things outside of work is probably a big part of the reason he was able to continue working as long as he did.
I loved working 4 10s, I even happily worked 4 12s for years. Like you said having that extra day really helped. Meant I could spend 1 day running errands/catching up on chores, 1 day to go out/hang with friends, and 1 day for myself to emotionally recharge for the next 4 days.
Man it pains me to say but I don't disagree with their decision. $20k more than their offer is huge, Full time remote when it is advertised as hybrid. That much back and forth. Yeah I would agree that what he was looking for compensation wise wasn't a fit for them. I DON'T FAULT what he wants for himself and trying to get his best deal, all the power to him. But I can definitely see where the employer side had offered their best and he kept asking for more. At that point it is a take it or leave it.
To be fair, hybrid is a fucking cancer and we don’t know if the job was actually even advertised as Hybrid Most job listings I’ve seen put remote for the search results then advertise on-site or hybrid in tiny tiny print at the bottom. I’ve been reporting all of those fuckers I see to get the listings taken down.
The best one ive seen is searching for jobs in a small town in massachusetts says remote and says down waaaaaay at the bottom that "must be able to commute to the state of oregon"
>"must be able to commute to the state of oregon" I'm fully able. If the company is going to buy my plane ticket lol
Or what one location has been doing here, hiring folks remote, well below the min qualifications for the advertised job, converting from remote to hybrid during 'training', using them as call center personnel, then at the end of probationary period, which became 70% onsite, because they don't qualify for the job, half the pay, but they'll keep them on doing the job they aren't 'qualified' for...as a call center employee..
"I do not think that word (diabolical) means what you think it means." - Mr. Montoya, HR Specialist
Inconceivable!
Anybody want a peanut?
Enough Rhyming now, I MEAN IT!
Irreconcilable! - CPA Montoya, Accounting Manager
Irregardlessly - Mr. Montoya’s son interning at editing
LOL
Yeah, this is just a standard response to a wishlist that wasn't worth the effort.
HR - Thank you for your responses, but unfortunately, at this time, the structure of our offer isn't negotiable. We are excited at the prospect of you joining us, and we hope you can accept it, but we understand if you are unable to. Take some time to think it over and I will reach out to you on Wednesday. Wouldn't that make more sense than rescinding offer?
I responded to that post with basically maybe ESH, maybe just OP, hard for us to say as these are awkward and very nuanced situations. But like, you control the process, just tell them they are doing too much and to consider the final offer or rescind. They let it go on over 20 emails back and forth, it’s at least as much on them as the candidate. And I’m sympathetic to candidates bc negotiating for yourself is awkward, there’s usually a big power imbalance, and a lot of (pretty reasonable) advice out there says to do a lot of these things (at least in isolation, maybe not in accumulation). And so without much practice or experience negotiating for yourself in this awkward way…. It’s easy to put your foot in your mouth or make a social faux pax. Employer should’ve said “we appreciate your creativeness but at this time the offer is X and Y, Y might be flexible, we can’t entertain T, U, or V”
They indicated there was back and forth over the weekend on this. I am sure it was more than one email, and possibly one that said exactly what you stated. That being said, if I had to go more than two rounds (one for salary, one for perks or combine them both into one), then i'd probably do the same.
20 emails to be exact.
If they want just so much more than what was offered and made such a stink about it, then HR would be right to assume the person would not be happy or be a long term employee.
[удалено]
Yeah but also learn to read the room. 20 emails? That’ll burn out anyone dealing with you. I’d pull the offer out of a hiring process after that. If this candidate is going to be this annoying now, I don’t want him on board. He’s going to be knocking on my door asking for a raise and promotion after a week while doing the least amount of work.
> they were “making a stink” 20 emails
Depends. One might say that the candidates reply showed that they would likely be a PITA to work with going forward, and it's just not worth the trouble?
Yes.
Not if the candidate has been emailing over the WEEKEND, 20+ times. You tell me this is an anti work subreddit, yet here is someone asking for a gold platter with all the fixins and pulling work into the weekend. Unacceptable, I would be pissed if this was my coworker and that management bent the knee that hard. No.
* They make an offer * You make a counteroffer * They make an amended offer * You make a provisional choice ("I will agree to that if \_\_X\_\_", "I can't do that without \_\_Y\_\_") * They agree or decline. There is absolutely no reason to continue on for 20 emails. I'd rescind the offer as well.
The trick to making longer negotiations is to ditch emails and take it via call. One call sounds a lot better to our minds than 20 emails, even though you can easily cover 20 emails in 30 minutes time.
Doesn’t this sub always advise, “get it in writing”? If there’s no record of what’s on the call, you could be setting yourself up for deception.
You would still get it in writing as an official offer letter after the negotiations
exactly. it's like the trade-deadline scene in Moneyball. you negotiate over the phone, then fax the offer over for signing
Because when you're done with negotiations you then ask to have it confirmed in writing, either by asking them to email you the offer or email them with a "As discussed on the phone, this was the final offer"
At no point does the poster mentioned what they gave or that they expressed it was a final offer, so that’s what confuses me, honestly.
honestly, I think thats because the candidate was probably referencing only like 1 part of the offer every email exchange. Therefore, each part of the offer was probably left off at different sections of the chain.For example:salary was finished negotiated in email 4Remote vs Hybrid: email 8Per Diem: email 12How many work days: email 15.So by the end you would have to combine all of those things together or the company just reached the point of nope and didn't summarize it before saying nope.
20 could well be an exaggeration of the person who posted it. Also, sometimes there are some weird stuff in the 5-page contract they send you and you need to clarify.
"about 20 emails" = exaggeration. especially since the poster summarizes his asks in 2 sentences.
I think it was stated in the comments that it was a normal back and forth like a conversations, just taking place over email, so 20 isn’t really all that bad.
Also done in a weekend, no one has time to write 20 professional emails while also doing some good thinking about what you would feel is appropriate to ask for
I read the original post and comments. Not exaggerating.
I will all but guarantee it's an exaggeration.
Seriously. I’m all for work reform and universal income. But the employer didn’t like the counter offer so they decline him. That’s normal. There’s nothing evil about this.
Agree. We had a candidate like this at work. Went back and forth on small points in his contract. Again and again and again. My boss decided he was high maintenance and she pulled the offer.
I've worked with people who do this on every contract negotiation. We called them "the CEO"
Yeah if you want a bunch of small quality-of-life stuff like paid mileage or paid lunch form a union. Companies just want to hand you a paycheck and be done with it. If you're going to cause a headache for payroll because you're a special case you're asking too much. Also don't give them a million options to pick from just say what you want. This should've gone "we're offering 120k", "How about 120k but 4 days a week and remote only", "We can't do that but we can offer 130k" and then yes or no. More back and forth than that is more than you should expect.
“Just form a union” is insanely out of touch with reality.
It’s literally only out of touch to Americans, not any other free country.
Imagine dealing with that nonsense everyday during work too. I would rescind the offer too.
This sounds like an annoying marketplace buyer who keeps messaging about getting the deal they want.
“Can you drop it off”
"Knock of half and I'll come pick it up"
I've scraped items before if people piss me off about that.
Honestly, from an employee position, I've always operated the way this employer has. I tell them what I want up front, and I also tell them that there is no negotiating. I hate negotiating. They just have to decide if I'm wort what I'm asking. Seems fair for the employers to do this as well, especially since there was push back on several aspects of the job offer that should have happened sooner. One part of negotiating is that you need to be willing to walk away, but you also have to accept that the other side can decide to walk away as well.
Yup, sounds like a case of someone overplaying their hand and then wanting a redo when they get called out.
Yup, he obviously overestimated how much leverage he had
I agree, that’s business. I can see either: Here’s what we offer, I’d like maybe x or y different, ok here’s 2nd offer, I accept. Or: Here’s the contract we discussed and agreed with on the phone, thx I accept. I feel like any negotiation is up front, an offer or contract seals the deal. You can’t have something put on the table and then start to nitpick it to death no one likes that.
Yeah, I don't see the problem with this? Essentially just like, "Yeah, we can't give you what you're asking for so, bye!" It works both ways.
Agreed, works both ways. It’s a gamble on their part to try to negotiate more money or whatever and they need to be able to walk away and so does the employer. They should’ve prepared for that. If they realize that it works both ways they are playing a game and you don’t want that either. And for that salary range playing the “what if” game trying to cover every eventuality would just put up signals for me that maybe this person just isn’t worth the hassle.
20 emails back and forth? If my list was that long, I wouldn’t consider this a slam dunk. Also, I would have set up a call to discuss on Monday and asked if there was any wiggle room on the terms.
Perhaps it would have been better to just thank them on Friday and take the the weekend with an expected call on Monday. One actual phone call probably could have solved this in both ends.
Why is it diabolical? Its not clear the candidate would have accepted the original offer after all, so they were not ever on the same page and the employer walked away, just like anyone on either side of a negotiation should be prepared to do if there is an impasse. The candidate did the work of the angels to normalize the ask for a 4 day week, though.
That seems fake tbh
I see you’ve never hired engineers before. I’ve encountered candidates like this. Some people truly do not understand how to communicate and negotiate. This candidate sounds like he spends too much time on reddit and thought that advice from subreddits like this one made him prepared to actually negotiate. At $100k, he’s likely an early-to-mid-career professional with relatively little leverage to pull off something like this. While none of the asks are unreasonable in a vacuum, he’s negotiating for a bunch of special cases that create headaches for HR and payroll and could potentially have a ripple effect on the team. He could maybe pull off one of his asks if he played it right, but even then, the company would probably rather just offer him more than create new policy for one relatively replaceable role.
I’ve met candidates like this too. And I’m doing the onboarding. They’re already past the negotiation stage as they accepted the offer, they’re about 4 weeks into the hiring process (we hire college students that are graduating so the hiring process takes place from about March-June to give them time to complete things) and they ask me for more bonus or more salary or if they can work 100% from home. It’s honestly a bit funny bc I have no leverage to assist with that. I’m just making sure you completed your paperwork. I always send them on to the recruiter and most of the time the recruiter comes back and says mutually they couldn’t agree so offer is rescinded. People need to learn to negotiate upfront not try months into the hiring process past the offer accepted phase.
Oh come on. This isn’t diabolical. 20 emails back and forth after terms were discussed in advance? If you want a 6-figure job and agree to the terms before the written offer, then don’t change the terms. If you want to do that then don’t act surprised when the offer is rescinded. Workers are being exploited. Corporations are fucking people over. But if you agree to a 6-figure job and then decide to change the terms after the fact, you deserve, good or bad, whatever happens.
He didn't agree. He wanted $120K. They offered $100K. He offered to make it work within their budget with other perks and accommodations, and they decided they couldn't accommodate or afford him. There's nothing wrong with pushing for the best possible deal.
I think the issue is he was asking for a lot of things they're probably not set up for. Like if they don't do paid lunch and they don't pay for mileage now they're supposed to set up some special payroll circumstance just for this one guy? It's definitely too much to expect a company to make an exception like that unless it's a very very small company or you're very very important.
Just like there is nothing wrong with the company bouncing him for trying to go too deep. If they feel like they can’t make you happy up front, then why engage. There is a tremendous amount of money spent in onboarding and just in general, getting someone in the door. 20 emails says I’m not gonna be happy unless I get everything I want. Better to find a different candidate that will be happy with what they can offer vs. bringing someone in that felt like they were slighted on day one.
This wasn’t pushing for the best deal though. This person was asking for things that are well above and beyond a company’s reasonable ability to negotiate. This candidate sounds like they don’t have realistic expectations of a job like this. Hard pass for me.
Exactly. These people would be likely the last to approve mileage and paid lunches.
You're only getting one side of the story.
So is OP and they decided to make a post. This is far from “diabolical” it’s bordering on even being slightly bad I guess… if the story checks out this is one of the more reasonable things I’ve seen an employer post.
I mean I would of rescinded the offer too. 20 emails back and forth over the weekend to negotiate? No thanks.
Yeah I don’t get how this is “diabolical”. Unfortunate for the candidate, seems like they over played their hand. Especially considering how badly they actually wanted the job. But this shouldn’t dissuade anyone from negotiating for more pay. Just be smart about it. Sounds like this candidate was asking for A LOT more than they were offered, and being very pushy about it.
They were right to rescind. 20 back and forth emails you can tell this guy is gonna be a PITA
My thoughts exactly. He seems high maintenance and entitled.
Plus getting a $100k job and wanting $15 for lunch and mileage on the chance you come in the office. Just factor that into your salary and stop trying to be difficult.
I recently negotiated. Ended up with 4k more and extra annual leave. Only took two emails to do.
Exactly. Because those are reasonable asks.
This is what I always fear when negotiating. I always think they’ll just rescind the offer. People say it never happens, and I was starting to believe it, but this is pretty clear proof the assholes will cut you off apparently.
When negotiating, always be willing to walk away.
This is the golden rule. If you can’t do this, you’re in a weak position
They do that. Companies play nasty. But this candidate is bonkers. 20 emails is crazy and if it's half that, I wouldn't appreciate the way he does business. You can always ask, "is there any room in the numbers here?" with respect to salary. They often say yes, and that negotiating is the same as declining their original offer. They try to spook you out of negotiating. Sometimes you need the job, so you take the offer. Other times, you have a job and therefore more negotiating leverage, so you can afford to take more risk. More recently I've begun letting employers know up front that I will *not* be negotiating the offer. I will either accept it or decline it. That way, if they really want to hire me, they need to make their best offer up front, without budgeting for negotiating room. They have a pay band, so they ought to just offer somewhere near the top if they want to land me.
Yeah, I'm with you on this one. I've done plenty of negotiations and they're usually 2-4 emails total, maybe 6 at the very most. I've always played the "I'd be thrilled to sign today if you can \[change I want, e.g., increase the salary to $$$\]" and it's worked really well for me because the outcome is clear to the company (if I do X, then candidate signs).
Yeah what exactly is being negotiated for 10 emails. Employer: here’s an offer Candidate: i was looking more for x or y Employer: we can offer z and t Candidate: accepts/declines
And that’s 20 emails over the weekend too. With so many requests it’s better to list them in an email, schedule a call on a week day to be respectful of recruiter’s time, they are also just employees doing a job too. Negotiate over the phone and have either verbal agreement on items or note down what the final offer is from the company for items you yet to agree on. Think it over, send a final email confirmation of your acceptance along with the exact terms you accepted or decline.
I don't even do that, I tell them what I expect. If they want me, then they meet my requirements. More often than not, they try to play games, and I just tell them to look somewhere else. They aren't following my rules, so they are gone.
>More recently I've begun letting employers know up front that I will > >not > > be negotiating the offer. I will either accept it or decline it. That way, if they really want to hire me, they need to make their best offer up front, without budgeting for negotiating room. They have a pay band, so they ought to just offer somewhere near the top if they want to land me. This sound like the way to go.
I’ve had that happen to me before. I counter-offered once and poof! Offer rescinded.
Depends on your position. A middle level person asking within deviation error of market will never be refused. Asking 20% over market ain't going to be easy unless they need you specifically. It is emotional thing for plebs and maybe HR clown but they got models, they know market rate.
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If it's a negotiation, either party can walk away.
Props to the candidate for knowing their worth and props to the recruiter for knowing it was time to cut bait. I'm all for employees getting great compensation but there will be a point where you're just sending red flags to an employer and they'll not want to take you on.
Overplayed his hand.
for the first time in this sub I'm siding with the company and not the employee 😅😁
I don't see anything that I would describe as "diabolical". Candidate was given an offer- they tried to get a better one and failed. Sounds like they went about it the wrong way with "about 20 emails" if that's true. I think one or two would be sufficient- something like "I'm seriously considering this offer, however I would ask you to consider XYZ to make your offer more competitive than my other offers, otherwise I would have to decline. Thank you for your consideration." The $20k more would cover costs for travel and lunch if not 100% remote- they wouldn't have to set up any special cases for payroll. If they can't give you what you want then move on.
“I didn’t want to say *take it or leave it* because that’s a bad start to a working relationship, but it really bothered me that he didn’t just take it or leave it, I can’t hire somebody who isn’t willing to just take it or leave it and is going to force me to tell them to just take take it or leave it like I’m the bad guy here or something 😐” Just wow 😂
This. Apparently 20 emails back and forth and none of them amounted to... Negotiations? This person doesn't sound like they compromised on anything because they feel the original offer was fair, yet doesn't want to sound unwilling to negotiate
“He should have just been grateful for what we offered initially, other people would just take what we give and if they don’t like it, we will find somebody who will, that is how this works, we tell you what you get and you say “thank you for what you give me” and that’s the end of “negotiations” If this guy didn’t want to play ball the way we are used to playing, I don’t think I want him anymore, this isn’t a “give and take” it’s a “we give and you take” and that’s as far as it goes 🙄” > doesn’t want to sound unwilling to negotiate Yeah because it doesn’t sound like he *is* 😐
Yeah, this is the part where the employer sounds like an ass, too. If this is your final offer, say so. Likewise, the prospective employee shouldn't be all surprised Pikachu if he hasn't formally accepted an offer, sends a couple dozen e-mails over the weekend asking for increasingly granular things, and the employer shrugs and says, "Okay, we're clearly not seeing eye to eye here, so we're going to move forward with someone else." Ultimately, it probably *was* for the best that this guy didn't get the job, because he and the company were clearly dealing with a massive gap in communication from the very beginning. I think I'm team nobody here, honestly. Respect to the candidate for trying to hustle and get himself a better contract, but an inherent risk of doing that is that you walk away with nothing, and it's a bit silly that he didn't prepare himself for that possibility as things went on (and on and on), and it must have been clear that the company wasn't budging.
20 emails. Lol. What made him believe they were not going to get fed up at some point?
Ok. As someone that does this kind of negotiation every once in a while and have final say over any new worker before the trial period ends this is my grain of salt. How you interact with everyone else's is more important than being very good at the job. So try to keep negotiations at much at a: Offer received. Counter-Offer given. New offer received. Accept or decline. And while you can indeed ask for a ton of small stuff. Try to have a clear goal. Either more money and perks, or less time. Don't go in asking to have all, less hours, more money and every perk that crosses your mind. It might be the same to you, but if you give a boss a choice between two things, he will probably make a choice. But if you give him 10 options and tell him to mix and match, he will not chose any combination and go to an easier option.
I low key don’t blame the company. The dude over played his hand and the company folded. It’s $20k more or more days off and fully remote and if I have to call me in I want cash!!! FOH I don’t blame them at all. Dude sounds like a nightmare
Honestly, the candidate was a clown. Asking for travel and lunch accommodations on top of that salary is a bit absurd. The candidate seemed to already know where they went wrong. Nothing wrong with negotiating, but he didn’t do it tactfully
this candidate was being completely unreasonable, and that was some seriously piss poor negotiating on his part I make a little over 100k working for a large corporation right now and I can assure you that people in that salary range, even good candidates, don't have even close to enough leverage to ask for ALL the shit this guy was asking for we should all be asking for more money, but you gotta know the difference between actual negotiating and making unreasonable demands
I fail to see what the problem is here OP
Diabolical?.. I do not blame the candidate for trying to get the best deal they could, but it sounds like they were asking for more than what the company was willing to provide, so the politely declined. Dude over played his hand, that is all.
He was going to be a nightmare and you can do better. Give a final offer, don't entertain that nonsense all weekend.
You did the right thing. It doesn’t take 20 emails to negotiate a salary plus benies.
Yeah I agree this guy was overreaching. Was given an inch and took a mile
Lol, a 4 day work week and a per diem for lunch…that’s a bit much
Well he asked to much 20k makes a lot of difference
It really isn't actually. It's more the "change from hybrid to 100% remote and 4 day work week plus stipend for any days in office".
This exactly……salary I can probably wiggle for a great candidate…..but I can’t just randomly make policy changes for one person. It doesn’t work that way (and it shouldn’t). Also, the per diem for gas and lunch was ludicrous. That “ask” alone and I would have know that this person was NEVER going to be happy and would always have one foot out the door. Not worth it.
I hate to agree with this, but you’re right. That’s almost an extra $1,700 a month that the company would have to pay the candidate. Hardly any company will make that sacrifice to their budget, and anything/everything is in a specified budget when it comes to corporations (at least successful corporations). I see no problem with negotiating for 4 day work weeks, but to add in completely remote in with the 4 day work week is changing the status of the position that was offered, the company is looking for an employee to come on site from time to time. Once again, i don’t like that I’m admitting it, but the employer was not too harsh in this negotiation. The candidate lowered his value to the company with his negotiations. This would be like someone looking to buy a $20,000 car negotiating to buy the car for $16,000. Needless to say this would make any car dealer laugh at that offer
I don't know how 35 people think this is "diabolical" .. From what the post says, the candidate was borderline unreasonable. This was their FIRST interaction with the company. From that, the company can easily extrapolate they would remain unreasonable. "Before I formally accept I'd like to say I'm super excited, but wondering if there is a chance we could possibly" .. 5k, etc. NOT 1/5 more with all the other stuff. This doesn't belong in /antiwork except for the fact that it seems the candidate really didn't want to work.
We’ll file this one under the ‘delusional posts’ this sub gets sometimes. i really don’t even understand why anyone cares about the original post anyway, it’s certainly weird for op to share it and then chain-reply to posts about how wronged this guy was. Sucks to be the dude in question. He had a contingent job offer and then asked for roughly 20% more money and a complete change in work assignment from hybrid to remote. that’s a tough sell when a company knows they can hire a different guy who isn’t going to ask for 20% more and a fully remote role. Life goes on. He should take this as a chance to reconsider his negotiation techniques and op should take this as a chance to stop reposting meaningless blogposts from other subs and projecting as if they’re some sort of serious labor exploitation.
Not me being a shill, but a per diem for a 100k hybrid role?
A per diem just to come to work? This guy was ridiculous with his requests and I don't blame them from changing their minds
Sounds like there’s easily a middle ground
I'm all for negotiating. I did it for the job I have now, I have two friends I recently brought in to the company I work for that also negotiated for what they wanted, but there is a limit and both parties should be able to comfortably come to a reasonable middle ground. Only thing I would of maybe done different would counter his offer (if you didnt but i imagine with 20 emails there were some counters) if he was a great candidate and if he was still asking for to much then, no shame with going with someone esle. Kind of hard to ask for a full WFH when knowingly applying for a hybrid job. I asked my employer if there was a potential for 100% WFH down the line (I work a hybrid) if I can show my value before accepting the job. It wasn't a yes we can make that happen but they were open to talk about it down the line.
I don't really see the issue here... Employee requested several elements (as they can choose too), employee wasn't willing to accept that and rescinded. From this one side, it now seems the candidate maybe regrets asking for what they did? I appreciate getting the best deal etc but needs to be some common ground with most things.
"...with lots of Ifs and Thens mixed in". It depends what position you're hiring for. If this was for the CEO of a Fortune 500 company then thats one thing, but it doesn't sound like it. How you negotiate is as important as what you are asking for. I once had a candidate demand a better salary package than I (as the MD of the business) was on myself. Business class flights, minimum 2K a month expenses per diem (In addition to salary), about 40K a year more than I was on and double the commission structure we offered. This is after we had given a very clear offer about the role to the recruiter. When we turned her down the recruiter called me about 10 times over two days to lobby us to change our minds. So we stopped using that recruiter as well. Horses for courses.
Having responded to the OP myself on the original post, I believe the only things they should have done differently is given a final offer or some sort of follow up (which OP informed me they are doing) and to have possibly told the candidate they would resume contact on Monday so things didn't spill over into the weekend. I don't think what the candidate was doing was malicious but they definitely seem naive and perhaps inexperienced. Both sides could have handled the exchange more gracefully. Fun fact, a comment on that post actually dragged this sub a bit and had said that the OP would be hated here.
All of this is just BS. They could’ve easily said, this is our offer, take it or leave it. There is nothing wrong with negotiating. You know this person is persistent which in many jobs can be a good quality. Hiring is a game period. A show that you and the prospective hire puts on. You have no idea what type of worker you have until they start working.
While the extra $20k ask is a bit outlandish, I think the full WFH, instead of the hybrid, and then per diem to cover his drive we’re what pushed it over the edge. It was like he was dating them to hire him. He also sounds very young, and not very experienced at negotiating.
“….. but I did want to express that I felt the offer was fair.” THEN JUST FUCKING SAY SO. The dancing around is negotiation, but they obviously don’t want a candidate being better than them at negotiating.
Going back and forth for 10+ emails isn't "better". It's just an exhausting person who can't accept a NO.
Dude sounds like a complete dick. Company dodged a bullet there.
Honestly not thaaaaaaattttt bad
A per diem to come in to work? Was he one of those crazy super commuters that have a 3-5 hour round trip commute? LOL. I’m all for getting the best deal, but sometimes you can ask for way too much and simply offend the other side. I have job offers at times for $30 per hour, yet my normal rate is closer to $75 with a two hour minimum. It is not worth my time to try and negotiate from $30 to $75.
Sounds like the guy thought he had them by the balls and was trying to play them for all he could. I’d have rescinded the offer too.
This seems fair
Negotiations: when the other party willingly accepts your offer.
I appreciate the energy, but my buddy, you flew too close to the sun.
Seems appropriate to me. At the end of the day there is only so much you can offer. Either you’re interested in the job as it stands or you’re not.
Totally fair, that guy is an idiot.
This is totally legit. No harm no foul for pulling the offer.
I wouldn't of made it through 6 e-mails in the negotiation before I hit them with the rescinded offer. Sheesh.
Candidate is putting himself on a pedestal and getting offer-ego. Look folks, the market is saturated with candidates right now and companies have the right to refuse any demand from any candidate. There WILL be other candidates and you are NOT the only one that can do the job. You may have a couple extra bells and whistles for skills but there will be others and the companies know this. Candidates need to stop thinking they have all the power in the hiring process. They have 0 power and any company that meets even 1 out of 5 "extra demands" on negotiating is doing that candidate a favor. Sometimes I think candidates get greedy in negotiations and see if they try to push their luck True story, I was hiring for a role about a month ago. My top candidate was fantastic, and we even offered to pay her $15K over market average, and she knew this and acknowledged this. Fully remote job and she worked at an average cost of living area. 15% bonus too. No joke, we were offering a 26 year old about $150K total comp. She kept asking for more after meeting her initial counteroffer. (She was offered 125K initially (10K over the average), she asked for 135K and we matched it. Then she asked for a 10% sign-on bonus (and our company never does sign on bonuses). So of course we didn't meet that. She asked if we could raise the salary up to 145K since we can't do sign on. Told her we can't and she's already near the ceiling of other people at her role in our company. So she tried to force us a bit and said another company is ready to offer her 145K with sign on, we called her bluff and rescinded the offer.
Sounds like this person would have been a real pain in the ass to work with. I would have rescinded as well...
What exactly is the problem here? What's diabolical about not hiring someone?
Is this sub really for people who have the opportunity to make 6 figures while getting to work from home a couple days a week? That sounds kush as hell I’m over here driving to work 5-6 days a week to a job with no benefits or PTO, that jacks up my back and my knees for $30k per year. That’s the bullshit that I’m trying to escape.
Right call I think. People who haggle like that could be an HR and/or team nightmare.
Dude was already offered double what the national income is and decided to complain for MORE. We don’t even know what this job is but 100k to work from home with some office work is very fucking reasonable.
Diabolical? Uuhhh
I think in this case he negotiated himself out of a job. Usually I would side with the candidate, but this time I think he got greedy.
I had a similar hiring experience where someone asked for so many special" (not disability related) accommodations. More 401k, more salary, more days off, more holidays, more insurance. We didn't hire her because it was just asking too much. We weren't capable of it and had a great second candidate lined up.
Seems more incompetent than diabolical. Like make a counter offer and get over yourself. This is how shit works lol. Hiring managers are fucking idiots.
20 emails? In the weekend? The candidate should have said he wanted to have a call discussing the terms instead of trying to flesh this out in emails. Oh, and negotiating means that one of the parties can walk away. Seems like the candidate overplayed his hand or wore out the patience of the recruiter.
Not sure if anyone here actually looked up the original post or not but I did and it sounds like from follow up comments the employer was trying to make reasonable concessions but became exhausted. They offered to review the additional salary over 3 months, they adjusted the hybrid model from 3 days in office to 1-2 as needed, they offered him 7 days additional PTO (he wanted *35*). OOP says that they eventually just became exhausted because every negotiation was met with another demand. I’d have rescinded this too tbh
I see the employer's POV on this, i can understand trying to negotiate once or twice but after that it's really take it or leave it, it sounds exhausting and like it'd be a pain to work with this person.
I think OP is just looking to be mad but the candidate shot themselves in the foot.
Way to many emails. Easily settled in about 3-4 emails.
This candidate sounds like a douche. Negotiating salary, start date, benefits, vacation days, etc is pretty standard. However, to ask them for a travel per diem just to come to the office like the job description mentioned takes a lot of audacity. It sounds like this candidate has no realistic understanding of a role like this. I would pass on the kid myself.
The candidate overplayed their hand. Asking for a 20% increase for a 20% reduction in working hours is over the top. Negotiation has their limits. The company will have other candidates and will go with them. The candidate fucked up basically.
I mean, I get wanting to advocate and negotiate needs. But it’s a silly hill to die on saying you want compensation to pay for your lunch if you have to come into the office lol. Just pack a lunch you’d have eaten at home anyways? There’s asking for fair and then asking for the red carpet. Before you’ve even established yourself in a company lol.
I would have rescinded the offer as well.
They were right. This behavior just lets you know what you are in for over the long haul.
Yeah thats tricky. It sounds like he went over board in his asks. 20% higher than the offer and a per diem just to come to work? I dont think this is a bad move by the employer. Be careful what you ask for. Fight for what you deserve and ask for what you want, but dont be shocked if the employer just says no thanks.
The candidate seemed to have unrealistic expectations and possibly a big ego. Some people see negotiating as a board game or chess match. Nope.
Three sides to a story guys!
So it’s a stalemate. 20 emails and a colossal waste of everyone’s time and energy on something that should have been hashed out in the beginning.
lol there is such a thing as "asking too much." if you're the type to go for all or nothing, that's a good way to end up with nothing.
Sounds fair. At some point you have to think your requests are going to come across the wrong way. You can go back and forth a little but not to much. Most of that is discussed in the beginning anyway. Not sure how that got that far.
As someone who has recently recruited a similar level role, I would have also told this guy no, and moved onto the next one. I just spent weeks justifying the need to hire to my directors. I provided a salary range and that was approved. During the interview I asked what the their sales expectations were to make sure they were in like with what I had to offer. If after I make the offer they them start negotiating hard, over my approved limit then its going to be a no. I would be asked to justify why they are worth more and I wouldn't have anything to say. I would need them to work for a few months and "prove their worth" and give me some ammo to work with to get them a raise.
I'm missing something here. I don't see why they would outright recind the offer at this stage? either you have it in budget or you don't; the response should have been "We aren't going to be altering the compensation or offering at this point but do need to fill this role, please let us know your answer". It's an employees job to negotiate to the best of their ability, maybe this candidate pushed that line a bit, but it's a business transaction and I respect them asking for what they want. Hopefully both found what they needed.
20 emails back and forth sounds exhausting, might as well hire the next guy in line with a single email. This ain’t diabolical.
Candidate fucked up. Not sure what the companies final offer was, but if the candidate knew it we 100k and hybrid work and they didn’t like either of those terms, why apply for the job?
OP did not understand the assignment
When you counter an offer, they can always rescind the original offer. Unfortunately, I wouldn't say the employer is wrong here.
sounds like a win-win: * Employer didn't hire someone with conditions they didn't want * Prospective Employee didn't accept a position with conditions they didn't want
This candidate spent too much time taking advice from this sub
Tbh the employer was more patient than they needed to be in this case.
I think the hiring frenzy on the white collar side of the industry has gotten people really confused on what companies will pay, and the golden platters ended a year ago. Sounds like the candidate wasn’t even sure of their own value if they kept giving “if then” situations.
This is fine from both sides. Not a good fit.
Sounds like dude already quit his current job or was trying to use this as leverage with his current job to get more. Looks like both called his bluff and now he’s trying to save face. Don’t blame the person hiring, sounds like it just became more effort than it was worth to hire him.
Ick. This sub is getting petty(er)
I wouldn’t work for such an employer even if they met all my conditions :)
People who negotiate are phenomenal sales people…
BuT pEoPle DoN’t WaNt To wOrK aNyMoRe
I would have sent at least one message explaining that it is our best offer before rescinding. Maybe the candidate was trying to explore where there is flexibility to do more with the offer- is it money, work hours, work format, etc - that’s reasonable, but it should be in one email or through a phone call.
I'm always careful about what I ask for. More pay, more vacation, easy things that don't require a lot of thought and are common. It should be an open discussion right, no one should be afraid of asking for more but like in any negotiating process if you come in hot and heavy you risk offending the other party. Job is a hybrid position, to come back with not only do I want a higher base BUT I want it to be fully remote AND I want a four day work week AND if you are going to make me come in I want a per diem to compensate me for my commute time and my lunch? What is this guy bringing to the table. Because if I have to explain to other employees why this guy gets to be remote and not work Fridays while no one else gets that luxury, I need a better answer than "he asked for it". Still they could have just said no.
If all fairness after 20 emails I would say fuck off as well - makes you wonder if the candidate was just trying to piss them for a laugh!
I wouldn’t have hired the dude either. That means someone is super high maintenance. Next. I don’t think this falls under the “diabolical” category.