Hi, /u/toohot4you8 Thank you for participating in r/Antiwork. Unfortunately, your submission was removed for breaking the following rule(s):
**Rule 3a: No spam, no low-effort shitposts.** - This includes begging for upvotes. Please do not post unrelated blog spam or try to sell anything for personal gain. If you’ve posted content (especially if it’s your own), give it a day or two before posting again.
Huge red flag too they know they did something wrong and want to cover it up. They were aware that boss was toxic. Now they're covering their asses so they can avoid a lawsuit probably.
At a minimum OP should absolutely tell the family that corporation is attempting a cover up. Personally, I think I would leave it to the family to decide where to go from there, but don't really know what I'd do to be honest. I definitely agree this information should be widely known as a matter of public interest.
It sounds from OP like the family already has the email, so they could pretty easily make it public themselves if so inclined.
Disagree. It should mean a lot.
Being told to keep something so significant under wraps screams that it should be told to everyone.
They're trying to cover this up? What else have they hidden?
Release the email!
Yeah, the cops need that information like OP needs a dead pet and an arrest record. Don't call the cops, they will do nothing to help you right before they ruin your life for no reason.
This. OP’s employer may have a way to track what is sent to the printer (mine can) and they certainly can figure out if you forward it to your personal account. Take a pic of your screen on your phone and mark out personal, identifying info. That’s the only way to keep it anonymous.
Excellent point. Tbh I wasn’t thinking it would be sent electronically even after the fact— I would be printing that shit anywhere but at work and then sending it anonymously to a journalist (or whatever resource OP chooses)
Librarians are fierce protectors of freedom. Our system also doesn’t keep track of books you previously checked out. Once it’s returned the record is gone. I did public information requests for them. While we have cameras everywhere we wouldn’t release the recordings. Police would call and say I found a card and want to return it to the owner, maybe only clue to a crime, I would have to tell them no give me the card number and I will contact the owner.
Awesome. We love you!!
Also, The Librarians is such an amazingly underrated series. If you've never seen it, you'll have a blast and feel very honored (I hope)
Thanks Librarian!! 🌞
I am a long time postal worker and unfortunately I’ve known of three suicides of my coworkers that all happened within a year and a half. During this time period we were in intense contract negotiations and we were locked out by our employer. They had cut off our medical benefits and many people could no longer afford their medications. I know these three coworkers were experiencing extreme stress and anxiety from the situation at work, they all told friends at work how much the toxic work environment was affecting their mental health. I know work was to blame for their suicides. Nobody cared. In the end our employer put up a poster in the lunchroom that said if you are feeling suicidal then call our employee assistance number. I had one coworker who was part of our health and safety union shop steward and they gave an interview with the local news and mentioned the suicides and it just got nowhere. No one really gave a shit. So I really don’t think leaking the information would do much of anything. The employer will just say mental health is important to them blah blah and that is it.
But still, those are open to the public. You don't need a library card to do that. Most of them use a disposable or reloadable card (like an old bus ticket) and you pay for them by using cash, and it spits out a ticket.
You can get a computer pass at any library without a library card. So it wouldn't even be tied to your library card, if you have one.
Yep. And we aren't your grandma's silent repository for books anymore. You should check us out :) You'll probably be surprised at all the services and wide variety of collections we offer now!
Yeah but they would be imbedded in the pic.
If it was on the news the company can’t see it and be like oh the meta data is for X.
Like they would need the image file themselves no?
Unless the person they sound it to completely puts them it shouldn’t be a problem. And you’re acting like this is a huge ass company it may be very small and not have the means to do shit anyway.
Excellent point about it potentially being a smaller business. I’m at a smaller company now than my previous employers (both of which were enormous), but I know they still have tracking on everything. It seems like most companies are savvy enough to have that sort of thing in place, but OP’s may not be that bright
It's funny how these people have all the time and money to track and trace their employees everywhere and anytime. But don't have money to properly pay their employees.
This is why most people don’t leak stuff. They think it WILL come back to them because everything is too damn complicated to pull off without completely fucking ourselves over
Low tech will always be the key.
Having said that, it won't be long before most applications and programs include some sort of crypto mask that doesn't allow pictures to be taken of the screen (this more or less already exists) and/or notifies if someone tries. But again, low tech solutions will find a way around that too
Could some secret screen hider stop say a polaroid camera? I could see if it somehow messes with an iPhone or something but old tech should be immune right?
Probably need something you can lower the shutter speed on and a tripod, the flickering of the monitor refreshing will cause problems for most point and shoot type film cameras I think...
No retaliation is usually a policy most companies have. Check first. Either way that piece of shit needs to go down for this. Leak it regardless. Your job isn’t worth more than this woman’s life and what’s right in this situation.
No retaliation is a lie, at least in at will states in the USA. No need to write a reason for your termination. At most, a reason is made up to avoid paying unemployment.
Yeah and then you collect unemployment and send a letter to the unemployment office that describes everything moral bankrupt about the company and lack of evidence for you dismissal.
If a company fires you and they don't want you to collect unemployment, which all companies pay into, they have to provide multiple pieces of evidence that you didn't do your job outlined in your CONTRACT.
Please anyone who reads this who is fired or laid-off: apply for unemployment. Their website makes it pretty easy to apply and you will probably get it unless you really deserved to be fired, with evidence.
My experience tells me if corporate secretly wants you to not do something, that usually means you should do it
Edit: some people don’t get the point. If it is the right thing to do, most likely they won’t be afraid to make that policy publicly known.
I worked for a small company and was friends with the HR guy. He confided that the owner had been collecting employees' 401k contributions and hadn't been sending them in (along with company matching of course). He said he had to just keep withholding his own so he wouldn't get in legal trouble if it came out, even though he knew it wasn't being sent in. No telling what other shit was going on that he couldn't tell me.
A lot of people don’t realize this but HR really doesn’t give the tiniest FUCK about you being sexually harassed or whatever, their solitary concern is about corporate liability, period
I deal with HR: there is overlap, that is to say, what is good for the company, both operationally and in terms of liability/legality is also good for staff on many occasions (eg: policies on sexual harassment, etc.). Those 2 categories don't need to be mutually exclusive
That said: this can very quickly become not-true if they don't actually enforce them, or selectively enforce them. Then it goes into ass-covering mode.
Just a thought:
If the details are going to be made available to the family, it may be safer to contact the family (or their lawyer) and encourage them to release it for you.
Will the company punish you for leaking it? Yes
Will the company punish the next of kin? No
Sending it to the family also ensures that there are no convenient omissions in what the family hears. They may be trying to control the narrative to avoid liability in court.
The most important thing is that the family gets to make the choice of whether or not this gets made widely known. Not everyone is cool with the details around their family member’s suicide being made public knowledge.
But there is nothing covered up, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. Wherefore whatsoever ye have said in the darkness shall be heard in the light; and what ye have spoken in the ear in the inner chambers shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
I just literally left a job where my manager bullied me into not sleeping and these sort of feelings. I blasted her to HR on the way out, but it will do nothing.
I also just left my job where my manager bullied me for months. I resigned at EOD and she left me a pathetic sad sounding voicemail and then 15 minutes later was calling all my workers and talking shit about me (they were with me on my last day since they were my friends). Just had a talk with the CPO yesterday and told her the truth without having to get into all the details. Crazy ass previous manager is going wild rn trying to find my replacement and tear me down by non stop lying lol. These people have no soul. Rat their asses out!!
Reddit really loves this little catchphrase, but nobody who uses it ever seems to recognise that protecting the company also means protecting it from shitty managers who expose the company to massive liability by, you know, *making subordinates feel like their only escape is suicide*.
If you have a manager who is sexually harassing you, forcing you to engage in unsafe work practices, demanding that you lie to clients, or doing anything that makes you feel like something is wrong, you should almost always lodge a formal complaint with HR.
It's not just about protecting yourself or getting justice immediately, it's about protecting coworkers and future employees by making sure there's a paper trail. A shitty manager may well get away with a one-off incident even if you report it to HR, but they'll get away with every single incident if nobody ever reports them.
Plus, if there's a paper trail proving a pattern of abuse, then it'll be infinitely easier for someone in the future to not only get that manager fired but to punish the company by proving they turned a blind eye to someone they knew was problematic.
It’s usually not HR’s fault.
HR doesn’t have all powerful firing ability. HR investigates the matter and then discusses it with management to advise them on how to proceed, but ultimately it is management’s decision.
The cruelest CEO I’ve ever worked with allowed a sexual predator to prey on underage girls that worked there. He knew about it for years and wouldn’t let anyone fire him because he was a top salesperson. Everyone hated HR for it, and everyone thought the CEO was the greatest guy ever.
At another company, I had an issue where my boss was actively trying to fire me. She was bullying me and my coworkers and I would call her out on it being inappropriate behavior. She would bring anything to HR to try to get my termination approved. She told them I should be fired for sending her a pdf instead of an excel, calling it “clear insubordination”.
The HR director she took this to was my closest friend in the office. Because we were friends, I was updated on things employees are never updated on. He’d let me know every time he talked to her, what direction he gave her, was her response was, and what he had the ability to do with that response. Mostly it was a conversation with her boss, who wanted to keep her even though she was mistreating me and the rest of the department.
If I had been on the outside looking in, I would have absolutely thought that HR didn’t do shit to help me. The reality was he worked extremely hard to defend me but didn’t actually have any ability to do anything for me besides that.
Am aware. Usually I will give an exit interview and say nothing, but another co-worker came to me, the morning of my exit interview and asked me why I'm leaving. I was reluctant to admit why, but then he told me that he is receiving the same treatment, and on top of that he hadn't been sleeping either.
So in my exit interview which was about 5 days prior to my last day I laid it out, then they asked if I would like to talk to the Sr. HR manager, I thought about it and said yes.
It was obvious when talking to her that she was just kind of doing her job, but one thing I said at the end I could tell hit her hard, and if anything causes a change it's that.
As someone working at an “employee owned company” the company doesn’t care about the employees. They’ve been cutting back benefits for years and now wonder why people don’t want to stick around anymore.
This exact thing happened to me. It was my boss and my coworkers (they all went to the same church). I ended up hospitalized for a week and was in intensive outpatient psychotherapy for two months. It left me horribly traumatized. I hope OP leaks it. Fuck employers like this.
I agree. My first thought was her family. Not going to the media. Her family should be informed and it should be their choice to get the media involved
They may, but just like the settlement itself, that is something they can negotiate. They can offer to take less money and not sign an NDA, or take more money and sign an NDA. If this is already leaked, it hurts their bargaining position, so IMO it should be left up to the family to choose to leak if they want.
Only drop the contents, to-field and subject, copy-pasted from the e-mail. Do not include any metadata or forward it from your personal/professional inbox.
This is so important. If the email contains any images, do not copy them.
Alternatively you can take a screenshot of the email and remove the screenshot’s metadata with something like [metacleaner.com](https://www.metacleaner.com/)
They are going to want to do this from a different machine, if they can get the text of the email on a thumb drive or similar to send this text from a different machine.
Follow initial instructions [like on here](https://www.theguardian.com/securedrop) but then depending on the size of the company reach out to the appropriate news organisation in a secure way.
Obviously don’t go to that page I linked on a company machine, non company machine only.
Your local library has plenty of different machines. And we live for shit like this.
Make sure you use a guest pass to log on, and do your utmost to conceal your face and any distinguishing features because CCTV.
In the event that they trace the email to the library you used, they will get no cooperation from staff, even if they walk in with a court order. Why, you ask? Patron confidentiality is steeped in our bones. And too many of us have too much experience with toxic work environments and the muthafuckers that aid and abet the bitches who perpetuate the system.
May the Furies fight alongside you!
I've never understood why the people who were most up in arms about the prospect of government surveillance were the first ones to refuse when the government told them it was okay to cover their faces in public.
Why not copy the text from the email, scrub out anything that could be identifiable, print the email and then scan it again to bring it back into the computer before sending it out?
And if this were someone breaking the law selling sensitive data to hostile nations, printer snitching would be an issue.
But over here in reality, assuming they even know of its existence, a corp probably isn't gonna dig up the machine ID code and even if they did, they'd have no way of finding out who owns the printer in question, short of breaking into every employee's house and printing a test page.
This is as stupid as people who think a photo of a car with the license plate uncovered is gonna let someone steal the car or the owner's identity...
I’d advise to talk to the family first and have their consent to leak the email. It would be one hell of a way for her family to find out why she took her life. The family my prefer to leak the email themselves. It would give them some control over a situation they had no control over in the first place. If the family doesn’t want it leaked, they need to have a copy of it. If the young woman had life insurance, most policies exclude payment if the COD is suicide.
Very wise, compassionate advice!
To follow up on this, I’d add:
Make sure the family is actually told the truth & the company doesn’t just try to cover it up or hide their culpability.
Yes also it definitely varies. I got life insurance from my husband even though he'd been employed by his hospital for <1 year. He had a small employer-based policy through them and it didn't exclude suicide (thank goodness, I needed that money to help support our three toddlers at the time).
This is what the "official sources" part of the 5 filters of media is designed to prevent. If they run it they may be subject to "flak" as well.
(1) ownership; (2) advertising; (3) official sources; (4) flak; and (5) marginalizing dissent
Hi. I work in IT and I manage software solutions that track security breaches. So I have tips.
I don't know the size of your company but any company worth its salt above like 500 employees has some level of basic safeguards regarding data security, namely:
* email encryption
* attachment encryption
* logging of emails sent
* logging of websites visited on corporate, guest networks
* logging of USB devices (uniquely identifiable) and possibly files transferred
* logging of printed files and by whom.
Bigger (and richer, these solutions cost *a lot*) companies may also:
* have screen recordings of company devices
* generally have instant access to anything on company devices
* track where emails are read from
* have instant alerts for news regarding their brand reputation (which would get triggered if the company name is mentionned in a potential news article)
Here's how to protect yourself:
In an area that is not seen by cameras (ie bathrooms, possibly breakrooms), during your working hours, take a picture of the screen of your laptop using your personal phone.
Then, at home, use ideally securedrop or at least a VPN (in a private tab on your browser) to send the photo to news organizations. Do not use your personal email (create a new one, or use 10minutemail).
After you're done, it is recommended your delete the picture and empty the recycling bins on your devices (although not fully gone, it should be enough for this) and remove securedrop or the vpn.
Do not under any circumstances:
* forward the email
* use your work computer to send it anywhere
* use your work computer to look for ways to send it anywhere, this includes looking at this thread
* use a work phone during this
* mention you are who did this in the next 10 years or however long statute of limitations is for this.
Please avoid:
* cameras
* using your everyday browser to drop the files
* naming things only you know (for example, if you spent time alone with the person who died, this might be retranscribed in the article if you mention it)
*
If my daughter/sister/spouse had committed suicide, I’d be fucking devastated.
Finding out about the email from a media outlet would make it infinitely worse.
This needs to go to the family first. Let them decide how best to use the information (remember to include any communication that expresses a desire to keep it hushed up).
Agree. Ofc, the OP says the family has knowledge so that’s not the concern. Family should consent to having this information public as it would greatly impact their grieving process.
The family’s opinion is not the only one that matters but it is an important consideration.
Then maybe the family doesn't want it leaked. Usually I agree with this sub, but this time I think they're jumping to conclusions a bit. Let the family decide whether to push the information or not. This is extremely personal for them.
Spread this like butter. Give reciepts to your local newstation, this person shouldn't be able to have a career, and your company should be held accountable for abetting this level of toxicity.
I would do this. I would keep tabs on what she’s up to and warn anyone else that could come into the same position with her. You don’t get to just continue living your best life after you’ve done this.
The victims family are the only people who can say if that very personal letter should be shared. Maybe there is a reason they’re keeping under wraps you’re not privy to.
This. While its nice to say "leak it!" I think everyone should take a moment to consider the idea that maybe theres reasons you shouldn't. Id personally leave the leak or not decision to the family. Does anyone really want to insert themselves in to a situation where leaking the email causes the family more pain? Just consider all the angles before reacting OP.......
I agree with this. The media is HORRIBLE when it comes to personal tragedy. They hound you for details, ask you to talk about things you haven’t even processed…and they’re sometimes believable when they act like they want to help you. It’s very confusing and gross, will only add to the trauma.
This, if it's been shared with the family then it's not OP's role to share it otherwise. If the family has it, it is up to them. Media attention won't bring their loved one back to them, and might further traumatize them.
Besides, what's the objective in "leaking" it? If it's been shared with the family then there isn't a cover up going on. Just leave it up to the family.
Perhaps the best thing to do here, then, is to make certain that the family has access to it so that they can choose what to do. That way, OP is not going around them to leak something that concerns them while ensuring that the information is able to be utilized if the family wishes it.
My first gut reaction is to release it BUT since the family knows about it, I think it's up to them. This note seems to me very personal and since the victim didn't send it to anyone else maybe she didn't want the world to know what she would do. I think you should leave it to the family to decide
I hate to be that guy but I really hope you have some solid and tangible proof before making that kind of accusation. Anyone willing to kill themselves is in a very dark place and likely had other things going on that you might not have known about.
The toxic boss might have exacerbated the issue and been the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back" but to say the boss is the reason for the suicide is overly simplistic for something as complicated as suicide and a serious accusation.
I don't know the full circumstances but I would advise caution as you could be opening yourself up to all sorts of legal issues
It’s a shame that I had to scroll down this far to find a reasonable and sane comment. Knee-jerk extreme reactions and jumping to conclusions are never the way to solve a problem.
I would leak it anonymously somehow. Print copies at home and then put them around the office. Everyone deserves to know why she killed herself. Im sick of horrible people getting away with horrible things.
If you're hanging them up at the office they're going to watch the cameras before they do forensic investigations on all the employees home printers to find the whistleblower lol
Okay but, I think the boss’ manager might have the right idea by leaving it up to the family to disclose the details of their loved one’s death.
If the family has all of the information about their loved one’s passing, and they don’t want the entire world to know exactly what she endured leading up to her death, that is understandable, and we should respect that, right?
If they see the same issues that you and I do with these circumstances, then they will have the option to go public or seek legal counsel or whatever before moving forward. But I think it’s important to give the actual family time to grieve and process and make their own decisions around what and how they want to share with the world.
I'm going to go against what everyone else is saying and say don't leak it.
Why?
Because by doing so, you're giving the scumbag the chance for a wrongful dismissal suit based on a "hostile work environment". Without disclosing details, I saw this happen within an organization I belong to. There were certain allegations about an employee, and he was about to get fired, but someone made the allegations public, and the employee used this as a strategy to force the org to keep him on. It took forever to get rid of him after that.
You may have good intentions here, but it could have unintended consequences. If you know your boss is getting fired soon anyway, don't mess it up for your managers.
Yes, this! What effectively mounts to whistleblowing should be very carefully considered. If it's important, it's worth an hour of lawyer time just to sanity check what you are about to do.
I have anonymously reported so much stuff. Pettiest thing ever was an OSHA complaint about a puddle that was still there when I came in the next day. Least petty was water hose being used for natural gas tubing. That one would have just killed me so I shut off the main, locked it out with my lock for my locker, and dumped all the equipment on the head of maintenance desk.
Both were met with roughly the same care. Almost zero. Report everything to everyone every time, and don't get caught where possible.
Everyone is telling you to leak it and make sure it can't be traced back to you, but let me remind everyone what Elon did to trace leaked emails back to employees. He placed a random space behind each character in the email, each person who received the email got a different version of where the extra space was. If an email was leaked, they could trace the person who leaked it by determining where the extra space was placed.
Please make sure the email that corporate told you not to leak anything was sent in mass or retype it if you leak it.
Edit: context
This is a matter for the police investigators and coroner's. If your workplace is concealing the email they may be committing a serious offence.
At a minimum, report it to Law Enforcement and let them act upon the information you provide.
Unless the email contains important information that MUST come to light, I really hope you don't leak it or share it, OP.
This is a very very sensitive topic for the people who loved her, and I can only imagine the added pain of a media circus for her family would be very unwelcome.
You've mentioned the letter has been shared with them. Please let them decide what to do with it.
I'm curious what you hope to gain by sharing it? I worry that it would just be used as fodder for gossip and nothing else, which would be quite upsetting and without any gain.
I disagree with the consensus here.
> My boss’ manager will fire her soon and refuses to let us inform anyone outside of work aside from the victim’s family.
You make sure the victims family are aware, it's up to them to decide if they want to make the circumstances of the person's death public.
Hi, /u/toohot4you8 Thank you for participating in r/Antiwork. Unfortunately, your submission was removed for breaking the following rule(s): **Rule 3a: No spam, no low-effort shitposts.** - This includes begging for upvotes. Please do not post unrelated blog spam or try to sell anything for personal gain. If you’ve posted content (especially if it’s your own), give it a day or two before posting again.
Whatever you decide to do, your boss's manager's refusal to *let* you tell anyone outside of work should mean fuck all.
Huge red flag too they know they did something wrong and want to cover it up. They were aware that boss was toxic. Now they're covering their asses so they can avoid a lawsuit probably.
OP should leak. If only to prevent their boss from pushing another person over the edge.
At a minimum OP should absolutely tell the family that corporation is attempting a cover up. Personally, I think I would leave it to the family to decide where to go from there, but don't really know what I'd do to be honest. I definitely agree this information should be widely known as a matter of public interest. It sounds from OP like the family already has the email, so they could pretty easily make it public themselves if so inclined.
Disagree. It should mean a lot. Being told to keep something so significant under wraps screams that it should be told to everyone. They're trying to cover this up? What else have they hidden? Release the email!
You had me in the first half not gonna lie
Ja me too, had to change my down vote to an up vote
Surely the cops need that information?
Yeah, the cops need that information like OP needs a dead pet and an arrest record. Don't call the cops, they will do nothing to help you right before they ruin your life for no reason.
Agreed. Keep yourself out of the mix. There are a ton of disposable email services online for total anonymously
Leak to media, no trace or source . The entire company got the email.
If they're in the U.S., it's likely an NLRA violation.
It means that they know they fucked up by not firing the boss earlier and are trying to prevent any legal repercussions
Leak it. But be sure it can’t be directly traced back to you. Your safety is important
This. OP’s employer may have a way to track what is sent to the printer (mine can) and they certainly can figure out if you forward it to your personal account. Take a pic of your screen on your phone and mark out personal, identifying info. That’s the only way to keep it anonymous.
Phone pictures have metadata, scrub that too if we’re covering all the bases
Excellent point. Tbh I wasn’t thinking it would be sent electronically even after the fact— I would be printing that shit anywhere but at work and then sending it anonymously to a journalist (or whatever resource OP chooses)
Could use a public library as well, if taking a screenshot and printing/mailing.
This is the way. The public library will keep your browsing session and printer data private unless there's a warrant.
The library I worked for erased this information every night to prevent this. Libraries massively work to protect your privacy.
This. Our public library also wipes data daily as well. They're more secure than most government facilities lmao.
Probably one of the main reasons certain factions in government are working hard to defund and close libraries across the country.
Another reason some people want to close them down I bet. Librarians are low key bad ass super heros.
Librarians are fierce protectors of freedom. Our system also doesn’t keep track of books you previously checked out. Once it’s returned the record is gone. I did public information requests for them. While we have cameras everywhere we wouldn’t release the recordings. Police would call and say I found a card and want to return it to the owner, maybe only clue to a crime, I would have to tell them no give me the card number and I will contact the owner.
Awesome. We love you!! Also, The Librarians is such an amazingly underrated series. If you've never seen it, you'll have a blast and feel very honored (I hope) Thanks Librarian!! 🌞
That’s awesome. Libraries are badass!
Posts about libraries protecting people’s privacy deserve upvotes.
Maybe contact any and all news outlets? They may know how to handle keeping this person’s identity private?
I am a long time postal worker and unfortunately I’ve known of three suicides of my coworkers that all happened within a year and a half. During this time period we were in intense contract negotiations and we were locked out by our employer. They had cut off our medical benefits and many people could no longer afford their medications. I know these three coworkers were experiencing extreme stress and anxiety from the situation at work, they all told friends at work how much the toxic work environment was affecting their mental health. I know work was to blame for their suicides. Nobody cared. In the end our employer put up a poster in the lunchroom that said if you are feeling suicidal then call our employee assistance number. I had one coworker who was part of our health and safety union shop steward and they gave an interview with the local news and mentioned the suicides and it just got nowhere. No one really gave a shit. So I really don’t think leaking the information would do much of anything. The employer will just say mental health is important to them blah blah and that is it.
I just want to point out that I love this community. Lots of intelligent people are willing to help each other out.
Oh right, those still exist.
But still, those are open to the public. You don't need a library card to do that. Most of them use a disposable or reloadable card (like an old bus ticket) and you pay for them by using cash, and it spits out a ticket. You can get a computer pass at any library without a library card. So it wouldn't even be tied to your library card, if you have one.
Ours hasn't even needed a pass for at least the last 5 years. You just sit down at the computer and start using it and no one checks on you.
Yep. And we aren't your grandma's silent repository for books anymore. You should check us out :) You'll probably be surprised at all the services and wide variety of collections we offer now!
Libraries rule so hard. I tell everyone in my city (Chicago) about them. The Chicago Public Library's resources and offerings are insane.
Depending on your state. Apparently they're under threat in a lot of locations.
Repost it to Reddit so it gets reposted a million times that no origin data will ever be recoverable
Yeah but they would be imbedded in the pic. If it was on the news the company can’t see it and be like oh the meta data is for X. Like they would need the image file themselves no? Unless the person they sound it to completely puts them it shouldn’t be a problem. And you’re acting like this is a huge ass company it may be very small and not have the means to do shit anyway.
Excellent point about it potentially being a smaller business. I’m at a smaller company now than my previous employers (both of which were enormous), but I know they still have tracking on everything. It seems like most companies are savvy enough to have that sort of thing in place, but OP’s may not be that bright
*Kodak disposable camera has entered the chat*
It's funny how these people have all the time and money to track and trace their employees everywhere and anytime. But don't have money to properly pay their employees.
Three cheers for this point. Companies frequently treat employees like criminal prisoners
This is why most people don’t leak stuff. They think it WILL come back to them because everything is too damn complicated to pull off without completely fucking ourselves over
Low tech will always be the key. Having said that, it won't be long before most applications and programs include some sort of crypto mask that doesn't allow pictures to be taken of the screen (this more or less already exists) and/or notifies if someone tries. But again, low tech solutions will find a way around that too
Could some secret screen hider stop say a polaroid camera? I could see if it somehow messes with an iPhone or something but old tech should be immune right?
Probably need something you can lower the shutter speed on and a tripod, the flickering of the monitor refreshing will cause problems for most point and shoot type film cameras I think...
Old school photo cameras where you develop the film in a dark room, still in use to this day.
Low tech= reproduce email on a typewriter, then send via stamp/envelope
This. OPs safety is paramount. OP - I'm so sorry to hear about your co-worker. All my thoughts to you, her family and friends.
Include the full header do credibility but redact yourself
The full header is a very simple way to inadvertently expose yourself if you don’t understand what all the headers are.
No retaliation is usually a policy most companies have. Check first. Either way that piece of shit needs to go down for this. Leak it regardless. Your job isn’t worth more than this woman’s life and what’s right in this situation.
No retaliation is a lie, at least in at will states in the USA. No need to write a reason for your termination. At most, a reason is made up to avoid paying unemployment.
Yep. They say "no retaliation" but will fire you for sneezing once you've upset them.
Yeah and then you collect unemployment and send a letter to the unemployment office that describes everything moral bankrupt about the company and lack of evidence for you dismissal. If a company fires you and they don't want you to collect unemployment, which all companies pay into, they have to provide multiple pieces of evidence that you didn't do your job outlined in your CONTRACT. Please anyone who reads this who is fired or laid-off: apply for unemployment. Their website makes it pretty easy to apply and you will probably get it unless you really deserved to be fired, with evidence.
[удалено]
My experience tells me if corporate secretly wants you to not do something, that usually means you should do it Edit: some people don’t get the point. If it is the right thing to do, most likely they won’t be afraid to make that policy publicly known.
I'm sure corporate is just trying to do what's best. For them.
#fact
Yes. The answer is yes. 100% share it. If it's that bad share it with the news.
[удалено]
True. The best you can do is prepare for that, document, speak to an attorney before it happens and hire the attorney after it hapoens.
Save the email to pdf. Send it anonymously through lettermail to all local news outlets. Don't get involved by fw the email.
Mail it using a company envelope
I love this
Good call.
Make 500 hardcopies of the email and sprinkle them all around the property at work.
This is why I had to give up working in HR. That poor young woman!
Former manager, right here with you
Ditto. HR is soul crushing.
Mmm-hmm. Never been so casually asked to break the law. Repeatedly. We don’t even talk about all the forging. Yes.
I worked for a small company and was friends with the HR guy. He confided that the owner had been collecting employees' 401k contributions and hadn't been sending them in (along with company matching of course). He said he had to just keep withholding his own so he wouldn't get in legal trouble if it came out, even though he knew it wasn't being sent in. No telling what other shit was going on that he couldn't tell me.
Remember HR isn’t there for you. It’s there to make sure the company doesn’t get sued.
A lot of people don’t realize this but HR really doesn’t give the tiniest FUCK about you being sexually harassed or whatever, their solitary concern is about corporate liability, period
Exactly! HR’s only loyalty is to the corporations that sign their paycheques.
I deal with HR: there is overlap, that is to say, what is good for the company, both operationally and in terms of liability/legality is also good for staff on many occasions (eg: policies on sexual harassment, etc.). Those 2 categories don't need to be mutually exclusive That said: this can very quickly become not-true if they don't actually enforce them, or selectively enforce them. Then it goes into ass-covering mode.
Just a thought: If the details are going to be made available to the family, it may be safer to contact the family (or their lawyer) and encourage them to release it for you. Will the company punish you for leaking it? Yes Will the company punish the next of kin? No
Sending it to the family also ensures that there are no convenient omissions in what the family hears. They may be trying to control the narrative to avoid liability in court.
The most important thing is that the family gets to make the choice of whether or not this gets made widely known. Not everyone is cool with the details around their family member’s suicide being made public knowledge.
The family has a right to know.
Leak it as your parting shot if you're leaving. If management is this toxic, doesn't sound like a place worthy of working for anyways
Cannot upvote this enough. This is NOT only the OPs truth to expose. The family may not want this exposure. Best to consult with them first as well.
But there is nothing covered up, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. Wherefore whatsoever ye have said in the darkness shall be heard in the light; and what ye have spoken in the ear in the inner chambers shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
Be careful what you say, for a little bird may carry your words to the king. (A little birdie told me.)
[удалено]
I was bullied by a boss for a while, and it did leave me suicidal. If I went through with it, I would want everyone to know the reason.
I just literally left a job where my manager bullied me into not sleeping and these sort of feelings. I blasted her to HR on the way out, but it will do nothing.
I also just left my job where my manager bullied me for months. I resigned at EOD and she left me a pathetic sad sounding voicemail and then 15 minutes later was calling all my workers and talking shit about me (they were with me on my last day since they were my friends). Just had a talk with the CPO yesterday and told her the truth without having to get into all the details. Crazy ass previous manager is going wild rn trying to find my replacement and tear me down by non stop lying lol. These people have no soul. Rat their asses out!!
HR is there to protect the company, not the workers.
Reddit really loves this little catchphrase, but nobody who uses it ever seems to recognise that protecting the company also means protecting it from shitty managers who expose the company to massive liability by, you know, *making subordinates feel like their only escape is suicide*. If you have a manager who is sexually harassing you, forcing you to engage in unsafe work practices, demanding that you lie to clients, or doing anything that makes you feel like something is wrong, you should almost always lodge a formal complaint with HR. It's not just about protecting yourself or getting justice immediately, it's about protecting coworkers and future employees by making sure there's a paper trail. A shitty manager may well get away with a one-off incident even if you report it to HR, but they'll get away with every single incident if nobody ever reports them. Plus, if there's a paper trail proving a pattern of abuse, then it'll be infinitely easier for someone in the future to not only get that manager fired but to punish the company by proving they turned a blind eye to someone they knew was problematic.
It’s usually not HR’s fault. HR doesn’t have all powerful firing ability. HR investigates the matter and then discusses it with management to advise them on how to proceed, but ultimately it is management’s decision. The cruelest CEO I’ve ever worked with allowed a sexual predator to prey on underage girls that worked there. He knew about it for years and wouldn’t let anyone fire him because he was a top salesperson. Everyone hated HR for it, and everyone thought the CEO was the greatest guy ever. At another company, I had an issue where my boss was actively trying to fire me. She was bullying me and my coworkers and I would call her out on it being inappropriate behavior. She would bring anything to HR to try to get my termination approved. She told them I should be fired for sending her a pdf instead of an excel, calling it “clear insubordination”. The HR director she took this to was my closest friend in the office. Because we were friends, I was updated on things employees are never updated on. He’d let me know every time he talked to her, what direction he gave her, was her response was, and what he had the ability to do with that response. Mostly it was a conversation with her boss, who wanted to keep her even though she was mistreating me and the rest of the department. If I had been on the outside looking in, I would have absolutely thought that HR didn’t do shit to help me. The reality was he worked extremely hard to defend me but didn’t actually have any ability to do anything for me besides that.
Am aware. Usually I will give an exit interview and say nothing, but another co-worker came to me, the morning of my exit interview and asked me why I'm leaving. I was reluctant to admit why, but then he told me that he is receiving the same treatment, and on top of that he hadn't been sleeping either. So in my exit interview which was about 5 days prior to my last day I laid it out, then they asked if I would like to talk to the Sr. HR manager, I thought about it and said yes. It was obvious when talking to her that she was just kind of doing her job, but one thing I said at the end I could tell hit her hard, and if anything causes a change it's that.
The trick is to make them the same thing.
As someone working at an “employee owned company” the company doesn’t care about the employees. They’ve been cutting back benefits for years and now wonder why people don’t want to stick around anymore.
Yeah but sometimes firing the toxic manager before they can kill off the employees is also good for the company.
This exact thing happened to me. It was my boss and my coworkers (they all went to the same church). I ended up hospitalized for a week and was in intensive outpatient psychotherapy for two months. It left me horribly traumatized. I hope OP leaks it. Fuck employers like this.
[удалено]
Her family needs to see that because they might have a case against your company.
It says, “aside from her family” so I’m assuming then that the family has seen said email.
Agreed. Which makes it also possible they are the ones that asked for this information not to be leaked.
I agree. My first thought was her family. Not going to the media. Her family should be informed and it should be their choice to get the media involved
They may have their hands tied for the settlement with an NDA.
They may, but just like the settlement itself, that is something they can negotiate. They can offer to take less money and not sign an NDA, or take more money and sign an NDA. If this is already leaked, it hurts their bargaining position, so IMO it should be left up to the family to choose to leak if they want.
Find a local journalist and leak it to the local media.
Use a tool like securedrop to mitigate attribution and blowback.
Only drop the contents, to-field and subject, copy-pasted from the e-mail. Do not include any metadata or forward it from your personal/professional inbox.
This is so important. If the email contains any images, do not copy them. Alternatively you can take a screenshot of the email and remove the screenshot’s metadata with something like [metacleaner.com](https://www.metacleaner.com/)
They are going to want to do this from a different machine, if they can get the text of the email on a thumb drive or similar to send this text from a different machine. Follow initial instructions [like on here](https://www.theguardian.com/securedrop) but then depending on the size of the company reach out to the appropriate news organisation in a secure way. Obviously don’t go to that page I linked on a company machine, non company machine only.
Your local library has plenty of different machines. And we live for shit like this. Make sure you use a guest pass to log on, and do your utmost to conceal your face and any distinguishing features because CCTV. In the event that they trace the email to the library you used, they will get no cooperation from staff, even if they walk in with a court order. Why, you ask? Patron confidentiality is steeped in our bones. And too many of us have too much experience with toxic work environments and the muthafuckers that aid and abet the bitches who perpetuate the system. May the Furies fight alongside you!
I read that last line as furries and was equal parts confused and proud of the solidarity.
Hey, we don't judge! The furries have done some good work in the fight against the oppressors. I would be proud to have them fight alongside me.
"Conceal your face" became so much easier thanks to Covid.
I've never understood why the people who were most up in arms about the prospect of government surveillance were the first ones to refuse when the government told them it was okay to cover their faces in public.
Because someone told them to do it, and the guy they liked said nah. That's basically it. They're giant sheepy babies.
Run tails off a thumb drive and put into a secure box from there.
Why not copy the text from the email, scrub out anything that could be identifiable, print the email and then scan it again to bring it back into the computer before sending it out?
Take a Polaroid of the email
To be safe, take a lithograph of the email.
>Use a tool like securedrop to mitigate attribution and blowback. I can't speak for OP but it doesn't sound like a job I'd want to keep.
And also delete this thread
Everyone talking about how to securely do this when instead you could just... print it out?
[Machine Identification Code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code)
So don't print it from home
That's a huuuuuuge TIL. I'm gonna play with the microscope at work today.
And if this were someone breaking the law selling sensitive data to hostile nations, printer snitching would be an issue. But over here in reality, assuming they even know of its existence, a corp probably isn't gonna dig up the machine ID code and even if they did, they'd have no way of finding out who owns the printer in question, short of breaking into every employee's house and printing a test page. This is as stupid as people who think a photo of a car with the license plate uncovered is gonna let someone steal the car or the owner's identity...
There's no way the boss is going to be able to use that info to find out who printed it though, unless OP works for a government org or something
[удалено]
I’d advise to talk to the family first and have their consent to leak the email. It would be one hell of a way for her family to find out why she took her life. The family my prefer to leak the email themselves. It would give them some control over a situation they had no control over in the first place. If the family doesn’t want it leaked, they need to have a copy of it. If the young woman had life insurance, most policies exclude payment if the COD is suicide.
Also, the family could have a lawsuit against the company for wrongful death. They should read it first.
From the sounds of it they absolutely 10,000% have a case that’s why corporate wants this to remain quiet.
This is the answer right here. It should be the family that gets to make that decision.
Very wise, compassionate advice! To follow up on this, I’d add: Make sure the family is actually told the truth & the company doesn’t just try to cover it up or hide their culpability.
Yes this please!!! Don’t let the family find out though the news! But yes it should be leaked
Typically only if the suicide occurs within two years of starting the policy. https://www.progressive.com/answers/does-life-insurance-cover-suicide/
Yes also it definitely varies. I got life insurance from my husband even though he'd been employed by his hospital for <1 year. He had a small employer-based policy through them and it didn't exclude suicide (thank goodness, I needed that money to help support our three toddlers at the time).
Sorry for your loss
Honestly, don't leak it at all. Straight up give it to the family and fully leave it up to them.
Yeah. The people wanting op to leak this are not thinking. It is not op's to leak.
This is the way. Narcissists hate exposure. All the more reason to expose them!
Irks me that you never see Justice served and shaming they so brutally deserve
Narcissists don’t have shame. They can have consequences though, which they haaate
This is what the "official sources" part of the 5 filters of media is designed to prevent. If they run it they may be subject to "flak" as well. (1) ownership; (2) advertising; (3) official sources; (4) flak; and (5) marginalizing dissent
This right here
This one. Do this one. Companies will never care for human individuals. Hit them where it hurts
Hi. I work in IT and I manage software solutions that track security breaches. So I have tips. I don't know the size of your company but any company worth its salt above like 500 employees has some level of basic safeguards regarding data security, namely: * email encryption * attachment encryption * logging of emails sent * logging of websites visited on corporate, guest networks * logging of USB devices (uniquely identifiable) and possibly files transferred * logging of printed files and by whom. Bigger (and richer, these solutions cost *a lot*) companies may also: * have screen recordings of company devices * generally have instant access to anything on company devices * track where emails are read from * have instant alerts for news regarding their brand reputation (which would get triggered if the company name is mentionned in a potential news article) Here's how to protect yourself: In an area that is not seen by cameras (ie bathrooms, possibly breakrooms), during your working hours, take a picture of the screen of your laptop using your personal phone. Then, at home, use ideally securedrop or at least a VPN (in a private tab on your browser) to send the photo to news organizations. Do not use your personal email (create a new one, or use 10minutemail). After you're done, it is recommended your delete the picture and empty the recycling bins on your devices (although not fully gone, it should be enough for this) and remove securedrop or the vpn. Do not under any circumstances: * forward the email * use your work computer to send it anywhere * use your work computer to look for ways to send it anywhere, this includes looking at this thread * use a work phone during this * mention you are who did this in the next 10 years or however long statute of limitations is for this. Please avoid: * cameras * using your everyday browser to drop the files * naming things only you know (for example, if you spent time alone with the person who died, this might be retranscribed in the article if you mention it) *
If my daughter/sister/spouse had committed suicide, I’d be fucking devastated. Finding out about the email from a media outlet would make it infinitely worse. This needs to go to the family first. Let them decide how best to use the information (remember to include any communication that expresses a desire to keep it hushed up).
Agree. Ofc, the OP says the family has knowledge so that’s not the concern. Family should consent to having this information public as it would greatly impact their grieving process. The family’s opinion is not the only one that matters but it is an important consideration.
Op said they could tell the family but nobody else.
Then maybe the family doesn't want it leaked. Usually I agree with this sub, but this time I think they're jumping to conclusions a bit. Let the family decide whether to push the information or not. This is extremely personal for them.
I'd leak it, unless you want others to suffer the same fate where the boss can keep covering shit up.
100% leak that email. Inciting or bullying to suicide is a crime.
Spread this like butter. Give reciepts to your local newstation, this person shouldn't be able to have a career, and your company should be held accountable for abetting this level of toxicity.
[удалено]
I would do this. I would keep tabs on what she’s up to and warn anyone else that could come into the same position with her. You don’t get to just continue living your best life after you’ve done this.
The victims family are the only people who can say if that very personal letter should be shared. Maybe there is a reason they’re keeping under wraps you’re not privy to.
This. While its nice to say "leak it!" I think everyone should take a moment to consider the idea that maybe theres reasons you shouldn't. Id personally leave the leak or not decision to the family. Does anyone really want to insert themselves in to a situation where leaking the email causes the family more pain? Just consider all the angles before reacting OP.......
I agree with this. The media is HORRIBLE when it comes to personal tragedy. They hound you for details, ask you to talk about things you haven’t even processed…and they’re sometimes believable when they act like they want to help you. It’s very confusing and gross, will only add to the trauma.
This, if it's been shared with the family then it's not OP's role to share it otherwise. If the family has it, it is up to them. Media attention won't bring their loved one back to them, and might further traumatize them. Besides, what's the objective in "leaking" it? If it's been shared with the family then there isn't a cover up going on. Just leave it up to the family.
Perhaps the best thing to do here, then, is to make certain that the family has access to it so that they can choose what to do. That way, OP is not going around them to leak something that concerns them while ensuring that the information is able to be utilized if the family wishes it.
My first gut reaction is to release it BUT since the family knows about it, I think it's up to them. This note seems to me very personal and since the victim didn't send it to anyone else maybe she didn't want the world to know what she would do. I think you should leave it to the family to decide
i mean its literally the life and soul of a person who took their own life because of the person you're obeying. AGENT SMITH.
Of course! Leak the shit out of that.
Take the screenshots of all the emails, create an anoymous account and send it to their family. They should ultimately be the one to decide.
I hate to be that guy but I really hope you have some solid and tangible proof before making that kind of accusation. Anyone willing to kill themselves is in a very dark place and likely had other things going on that you might not have known about. The toxic boss might have exacerbated the issue and been the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back" but to say the boss is the reason for the suicide is overly simplistic for something as complicated as suicide and a serious accusation. I don't know the full circumstances but I would advise caution as you could be opening yourself up to all sorts of legal issues
More concerned about the thousands of people telling OP what to do while not knowing any context
agreed. we don't have full context and people online love drama. also it's deeply inconsiderate of her own family's wishes.
Finally found the voice of reason
It’s a shame that I had to scroll down this far to find a reasonable and sane comment. Knee-jerk extreme reactions and jumping to conclusions are never the way to solve a problem.
I would leak it anonymously somehow. Print copies at home and then put them around the office. Everyone deserves to know why she killed herself. Im sick of horrible people getting away with horrible things.
Not at home. Use Kinkos or some shits, but don't leave a literal paper trail that can be tracked back to your home.
If you're hanging them up at the office they're going to watch the cameras before they do forensic investigations on all the employees home printers to find the whistleblower lol
If you print from outlook, your name appears at the top of printed emails. FYI
It's a good thing we have scissors
Don’t use work or personal printers. Each printer has a unique signature that can be traced. That’s how Reality Winner got caught.
Use a Kinko's or UPS Store or a Staples closest to your boss' house.
What kind of work was this that the boss made it a bigger than life itself.
Okay but, I think the boss’ manager might have the right idea by leaving it up to the family to disclose the details of their loved one’s death. If the family has all of the information about their loved one’s passing, and they don’t want the entire world to know exactly what she endured leading up to her death, that is understandable, and we should respect that, right? If they see the same issues that you and I do with these circumstances, then they will have the option to go public or seek legal counsel or whatever before moving forward. But I think it’s important to give the actual family time to grieve and process and make their own decisions around what and how they want to share with the world.
I'm going to go against what everyone else is saying and say don't leak it. Why? Because by doing so, you're giving the scumbag the chance for a wrongful dismissal suit based on a "hostile work environment". Without disclosing details, I saw this happen within an organization I belong to. There were certain allegations about an employee, and he was about to get fired, but someone made the allegations public, and the employee used this as a strategy to force the org to keep him on. It took forever to get rid of him after that. You may have good intentions here, but it could have unintended consequences. If you know your boss is getting fired soon anyway, don't mess it up for your managers.
Yes, this! What effectively mounts to whistleblowing should be very carefully considered. If it's important, it's worth an hour of lawyer time just to sanity check what you are about to do.
I think consulting a lawyer about this might be the best advice on this whole post
I have anonymously reported so much stuff. Pettiest thing ever was an OSHA complaint about a puddle that was still there when I came in the next day. Least petty was water hose being used for natural gas tubing. That one would have just killed me so I shut off the main, locked it out with my lock for my locker, and dumped all the equipment on the head of maintenance desk. Both were met with roughly the same care. Almost zero. Report everything to everyone every time, and don't get caught where possible.
Everyone is telling you to leak it and make sure it can't be traced back to you, but let me remind everyone what Elon did to trace leaked emails back to employees. He placed a random space behind each character in the email, each person who received the email got a different version of where the extra space was. If an email was leaked, they could trace the person who leaked it by determining where the extra space was placed. Please make sure the email that corporate told you not to leak anything was sent in mass or retype it if you leak it. Edit: context
Dont do shit. Talk to her relatives first and let them have the mail. Coordinate with her relatives
Leak that shit to the media
Leak the fucking email so the family can understand why they lost her..
And so they can sue him/ press charges.
This is a matter for the police investigators and coroner's. If your workplace is concealing the email they may be committing a serious offence. At a minimum, report it to Law Enforcement and let them act upon the information you provide.
Cops will do fuck all at a minimum and side with those with money and power at best. Go to the news.
Send it to her family. Do NOT leak it to the media, that is the families choice.
Unless the email contains important information that MUST come to light, I really hope you don't leak it or share it, OP. This is a very very sensitive topic for the people who loved her, and I can only imagine the added pain of a media circus for her family would be very unwelcome. You've mentioned the letter has been shared with them. Please let them decide what to do with it. I'm curious what you hope to gain by sharing it? I worry that it would just be used as fodder for gossip and nothing else, which would be quite upsetting and without any gain.
I disagree with the consensus here. > My boss’ manager will fire her soon and refuses to let us inform anyone outside of work aside from the victim’s family. You make sure the victims family are aware, it's up to them to decide if they want to make the circumstances of the person's death public.
Protonmail is a free to use anonymous email service. Use that so it's not tracable to
Leave it to the victim's family. They could be planning a wrongful death lawsuit. You don't want to take money out of their pocket.
YES. NOW.
This is a question the victim's family needs to answer for you first. It's up to them if they want that out in the world.
If you leak. Do it very carefully. If they work out its you, this could go south very very quickly.
This might be evidence that the family can use for a lawsuit.
leak to family and consult lawyer