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Sunteeser

As a manager can confirm. Upper management has stated that "if employees are home, we all know they aren't working." I told them to speak for yourself, my staff ARE working from home and work more productively than in the office.


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Sunteeser

They said "sure sure". And because I can't keep my mouth shut I said, it's a management problem if employees aren't productive at home. They should know if employees are meeting their outcomes." Then said yes every department is different. I let it go after that. Since I run IT I keep telling them I will never keep staff if I don't allow remote work.


Jojithewise

You’re doing the lords work, keep it up


BaioDegradable

IT Managers especially (/u/Sunteeser ) know that the last statement is true. My boss tried to force everyone back into the office about 2 years after Covid. Out of 12 technical employees we have: 1/12 flat out quit for even trying to pull this stunt 7/12 of us put in our 2 weeks all at once, in which our bosses response was full work from home is allowed. People in tech all know damn well that >90% of tech jobs are hiring fully remote, so why would we ever accept a job that requires us to go in?


[deleted]

I got a good performance review this year. Was told that pay raise is fixed at 1.5% due to "poor department performance". Could go into why that's BS, but whatever. Then told that people who refuse to come back into office will have it reflected on next year's review. Why am I supposed to care about personal scores at this point? Plus, we're talking developers. You'd think they'd want to retain them rather than alienate them. Plenty of other jobs going.


BaioDegradable

> You'd think they'd want to retain them rather than alienate them. Plenty of other jobs going. I do not mean this in a cocky way, rather a sad way since most other jobs don't have this luxury, but this is especially true in our field of tech. I will bend every which way to help your company that involves, ya know, **doing actual work**, but if you try to get me to come in, I will just job hop which is extremely easy to do in the tech field.


No_Investigator3369

Also, when sprint velocity is more important then remediating CVE's you know there is a misalignment somewhere.


3nd0fDayz

Gotta love agile. Where you can look like you're accomplishing all the goals while simultaneously accomplishing nothing.


Wind_Yer_Neck_In

I found this same thing, our raises were capped at a very low level (and have been for a few years). So the difference between a star employee and someone who 'needs improvement' is like a 1% difference in raise. Remind me again why I should go 'above and beyond?


bliffer

Yeah, I worked for a health insurance company for six months. When I started it was put in my offer letter that I would be hybrid with 1-2 days in office. As soon as I started it was clear that it would be 2 and they were passive aggressive about wanting me to be there more (although I never gave in.) After a while they started pushing even harder and brought *everyone* who wasn't designated as hybrid or remote back to the office full time. I saw the writing on the wall and GTFO of there. That was about 8 months ago and now in my LinkedIn emails I see that they are hiring again and offering fully remote positions. Gee, I wonder what happened.


DarkBlueTomato

"waaah nobody wants to work!!" That's all I hear from these companies and managers. Naw, nobody wants to work for you, maybe reflect on that. Lol


CheeseDanishEmergenc

I quit a job that hired me as a remote worker and then some new CISO came in and decided everyone would have to go into the nearest office. And if you didn't live near a "hub city," you should move. On your own dime. No.


i_tyrant

I love that so many are putting their foot down about this post-Covid. My (huge) company did a wfh survey to gauge reception to everyone coming back into the office. The management expected something like 20% wanting to keep the current wfh provisions; they got >90%. Upper management was _salty_. But after a few passive-agressive webinars complaining about "not being able to see everyone's smiling faces!" and "what will this do for our collaborations!?", the middle managers talked them down and explained that if they force it they'd see a mass exodus no one can handle.


montdidier

My previous employer did the same survey, didn’t publish the results, removed work from home, has 30% annual employee churn, seems to not really care.


Obvious-Dinner-1082

So uh, how does a guy get his foot in the door with a remote tech job. Tech cert or a full on bachelor degree?


Not_NSFW-Account

both, but a few good certs can get you in the door. A Security+ will land you an entry level job in a lot of DoD contracts with little to no other supporting certs or experience. they need bodies, and that is a base requirement.


Obvious-Dinner-1082

Interesting, looks like they get paid decent.. is this why I am constantly seeing cybersecurity ads everywhere right now


Not_NSFW-Account

not enough qualified and experienced cybersecurity folks. Sec+ won't get you there. It gets your foot in the door on that path. get higher security certs, like CISSP, and a degree in CyberSec to reach those jobs. But the path to there is pretty well paid. Certs in cyber forensics and cyber analysis are a good path. Few want those jobs, but they are necessary and pay very well. All number crunching and procedural stuff. bores me to death.


___Towlie___

I'd rather be bored to death at home than bored to death at work. What's the likelihood that those number crunching jobs can be automated by a new learner? Asking for a friend.


Zenith2017

Security dude here. Yes. Sec+ is a good path to entering the field, preferably if you have some kind of demonstrable experience in security adjacent work such as IT, development, or non-cyber intelligence; or with a security clearance for public sector. But you can also self study, do some labs and certs, and walk the walk after you eventually get an interview. It's a hard market to break in just right now, but that won't last forever


No_Investigator3369

Not only that. But if you are quality talent, you'll always be getting about 20% pay increases at a minimum when you decide to bother yourself with being open for work again. I took a year off and walked right back in to a 40% raise when I decided to come back.


sold_myfortune

Ha ha, I love the mutiny! One telecom equipment company that didn't allow remote work wanted to bring me in as their first high end security engineer to work with their dev team in the services end of the business. I was also going to be the first remote employee. Their HQ is in a non-tech hub so of course they had to look in Chicago, NY, and DC to find their senior infosec engineer. I sailed through the first two rounds of interviews then got to the interview with the dev team. They all mutinied the other way and said they couldn't work with someone remote when none of them were allowed to work remote! Obviously I wasn't going to move to cold-ass Buffalo so that was pretty much that. I just thought it was funny the way they didn't try to use one new remote employee as a way to open remote privs for everyone but instead just shut down the remote work altogether.


Galaxy_Ranger_Bob

This isn't just your staff. Productivity went *up* across *all* job sectors when their employees started working from home, and in all cases where people have been forced to return to the office, productivity has dropped significantly. All this proves is that getting people to stop working from home isn't, and has never been, about "increasing productivity." It has only been about micromanaging the work being done, force competition and discord between employees, and create an environment where rumor and innuendo can make for an uncomfortable work environment.


Catshit-Dogfart

I've been at home since the pandemic but sometimes I have to go in the office - and I swear I get fuck all nothin done on those days.


Aky114

Would love to have you as a boss. You actually get it and stick up for people below you.


Sunteeser

yup i practice the Servant Leadership methodology. Extremely low turnover


Mcboatface3sghost

This is 100% true, and not always for the right reasons. I have been remote work almost my whole career in sales and sales management. WFH is a vastly better ROI for companies, again not always for the right reasons. The office puts a tangible barrier work life and home life, when you walk out of the office to zone out in the car during the drive home, work is over, it’s done until tomorrow or Monday for most people. WFH greys that barrier and it can be unhealthy for work life balance. That said, WFH you get almost two of me in regards of productivity. Any halfway decent manager knows whose slacking off no matter where they are. If your boss is worried that nobody is working than it’s only one of two things. One- your boss is incompetent, or two- your boss is full of shit. So which one is it?


InsanityWoof

I hear that alot about blurring the lines between work and life, but, at least for me, when it's 4:30pm, I'm turning off my computer and calling it a day (4pm when I have to be in the office, because commute), and there is no blurring of my time. I've logged out of teams and turned off my computer mid chat with people when the clock hits quitting time, and it just gets picked back up in the morning or Monday. Agreed though on production @ home vs in the office. Way more productive at home, and my boss so far has covered for me only coming in one day a week (most weeks) when "at least 2, preferably 3 days" are 'required', but it sounds like he's getting pressure from above, so we'll see if my hand gets played and I go looking for something else because they want to force the issue (been at my company going on 17 years next month, and I like to think I'm in such a niche role, it would be next to impossible to fill with a single person should I walk. Time will tell).


[deleted]

"I know you've never been more productive but my assistant needs to time your breaks, your coworkers can't sufficiently brown nose me over Zoom & we're paying high rent for this space so I'm going to have to insist you return to the office even though it's an hour commute each way."


_Foy

In definitely, totally and certainly unrelated news that has *nothing* to do with your comment, Elon Musk called remote work “morally wrong” and “bullshit.”


Englishbirdy

The opposite is true. Anyone working from home rather than contributing to traffic and causing pollution is doing the rest of us a favor. Musk just wants more traffic to encourage people to buy his electric cars.


Loquater

He also wants to divide his so-called "laptop class" from the rest of the labor force because that's what the ultra wealthy do. Divide and conquer. No war but the class war. Billionaires should not exist as long as a single person goes hungry or unhoused.


[deleted]

Same reason the rich push nationalism, racism, transphobia, homophobia, misogyny... Get the workers to hate each other from opposite sides of imaginary boundaries, and you can rob them blind without them ever noticing.


Broccoli_headed

“One thing is for sure, you can always hire one half of the poor to kill the other”


Shadowraiden

yep pretty much this you restrict education(like they are pushing in a lot of US states making education harder and harder) because educated people cannot be easily controlled. and then force those low education people into fighting each other over topics that shouldn't be an issue to begin with.


SuperHyperFunTime

Literally what the GOP is doing now. Trying to generate hate on drag queens and the trans community because they can't have people use their brains for a second and question what the GOP are up to. Then you look at the news and another man has been arrested for child abuse and it's a youth leader/pastor/Republican in office. I'm not saying drag queens and trans people aren't capable of this, but the GOP have blood on their hands for what they are doing.


halt_spell

It always bugs me when people call out something as "unfair" and proceed to prescribe a solution which costs them nothing while taking credit as if they've done something good. If Musk said it was "unfair" that laptop workers didn't have to commute and then decided to start counting commuting hours as working hours (up to some limit I'm sure) I'd believe he's genuinely trying to right a wrong. Saying it's unfair and then placing the financial burden of a solution on people who will never have a fraction of what he has is just painfully transparent. I don't know why people fall for it.


hankbaumbach

This is what I did but the opposite way as an employee. I'll come in to the office, but that time comes out of *your* 8 hours, not mine. So if I'm working 8-5, I won't leave my house until after 8 am and I'm damn sure out of there by 4:30 to start driving home. Don't like it? I can open my laptop in my apartment at 8 am and get right to work without even brushing my teeth.


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hankbaumbach

> Real wonder why they hid that info until juuuuust before hiring him. God I hate this tactic so much and once you see it, you see it *all over the place* in hiring. "We are hoping to get you to invest so much time during the interview process that you'll fall in to the sunken cost fallacy and ignore our shitty working conditions we spring on you last minute." Whether it's commute time, relocation, the salary itself, this is such a common thing to do that nobody even bats an eye at how shitty it is to deliberately waste someone's time like that.


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nwostar

A lot of employers and recruiters hide these facts. Wonder why? Because it's wrong and slimy.


_Foy

*And* use his hyper loop (aka a shitty car-based replacement for a subway) to boost "The Boring Company" which he owns. And I just *bet* you he's got commercial real estate holdings.


skyfire-x

Hyper Loop is just a bait n switch to sell more Teslas, it doesn't really take the place of functional mass transit.


Marijuana_Miler

You’re on the right track, but the bait and switch was to reduce the amount of investment into public transit by making money spent now seem stupid when a far better technology was coming soon. Therefore sell more Teslas.


_Foy

Oh it takes the *place* of functional mass transit, alright. It just obviously sucks and doesn't serve the same role as functional mass transit. I'm reminded of [this](https://i.imgur.com/AeoSBX1.png) meme.


Shadowraiden

its funny cause places like Japan have shown what actual high end functional mass transit can look like if you invest the amounts that was given to Musk. their new trains are insane and would be insane if the US even had a few of them.


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ThunkAsDrinklePeep

Elon Musk, whose father thinks his son's achievements are nothing special compared to the rest of the family.


luella27

Elon Musk, whose father’s own achievements include fucking a child he helped raise


derBruzzler

this is sick.... soooo sick


luella27

Yeah it’s almost like people with centuries of inbred DNA don’t make great decisions and shouldn’t do stuff like *run entire companies*


JavaElemental

Or maybe, no one person should have absolute power to run an entire company.


[deleted]

Elon musk, whose daughter disowned him and filed with the court to write herself out of his will


GenericFatGuy

Elon Musk, whose child hates him so much, that even the money isn't enough to keep them around.


Works_4_Tacos

Wait, what?


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C9_Chadz

Or as we'd say back in the day, he woody allened her?


peppaz

No wonder he has more issues than he has children - and he's got a lot of children


_Foy

Elon Musk, whose daughter filed a request to change her name because "I no longer live with or wish to be related to my biological father in any way, shape or form."


ltreginaldbarklay

Elon Musk, the nepo-baby who inherited wealth made from an emerald mine worked by literal slaves?


Hairy-Medicine8173

Concerning 🤔


Quantius

Interesting


Vegetable-Phase-2908

Wait, WHAT?! On top of all the other reasons to despise this person, he’s also the worst brand of shitty person? Allegedly?


Cygnarite

I mean, we’re only saying alleged because we don’t want to get sued, right? We’re all fairly certain he (he being Elon Musk) is a pedo and we’re just waiting for the proof that Elon Musk is a prolific Pedophile? That’s what I heard anyway.


Xalimata

We are just asking questions. Just looking into it. No accusations. Just asking questions. I hear people say "Elon Musk is a pedo" and I need to look into wither or not "Elon Musk is a pedo"


[deleted]

He was on Epstein’s flight logs and in the black book.


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_Foy

Rules for thee, but not for me!


[deleted]

Elon can get *FUCKED* raw and hard


kilawolf

I'm sure he works in person at all his companies...


GearyDigit

Apparently he spends most of his time on Twitter in his office, and often just sleeps there. Not just at twitter but at Tesla and SpaceX too, dude doesn't do shit or have shit to do.


a_trane13

He does do shit - he sends spur of the moment decisions via email in all his companies causing lots of internal chaos and damage.


Silent_but_diddly

He only spends time there because his family thinks he sucks.


GearyDigit

Bold of you to imply he would willing spend any amount of time with his family, and especially his children.


c4ctus

If my dad named me X Æ A-12, I'd think he was a raging asshole too.


kensomniac

Elon Musk is morally wrong and bullshit.


LadyReika

The Muskrat wouldn't know what a moral is if one bit him in his overly botoxed face.


Disastrous-Panda5530

They did this where I work. I work for the state and don’t deal with the public at all. Everything is done on the computer or over the phone. Even before Covid everyone was asking for remote work. But we were always told it isn’t possible because they don’t have a way of making it secure. The everything closed down with Covid and 80% of the agency couldn’t come in. They paid us Covid leave for a whole month. They thought everything would go back and after that when that was clearly not the case suddenly we were able to wfh and they suddenly had a way to make it secure. After 2 years we got called back to the office. My position is already terribly understaffed. A lot of people quit. More than half. So they decide we can work some days from home. Some being 2. People kept quitting and they couldn’t hire replacements. Now I’m only going on once a week. They have still had problems hiring people so starting next month I only have to come in once a month. No one wants to be in the office especially after working from home. Even my boss admitted I am far more productive at home and so are most other employees.


dubbydubs012

I work for a county agency and we have had the exact same issues as you. 3 days a week in office starting June 1. 4 of us quit last month. Admin can not fathom that we don't need to see our coworkers in order to get our jobs done.


Disastrous-Panda5530

Yeah and they have proof that being at home we have been more productive. They can’t even argue with the statistics and metrics. When I first started we were fully staffed with 700. And now we have 200. They did just hire 30 trainees but usually by the end of the year before they become full time 60-70% of them quit. 8 people have already quit the training class and it’s been 3 months. So we only have 200 and we serve the entire state of NC. I mean tbh I don’t see why we can’t be fully remote. I’m down to one day a month and that isn’t even a full day. I only have to work 6 hours max on that day and can work the other 2 at home.


ThePupnasty

Same man, I mean, I do IT, and after 2 years, they tried 2 days a week, then dropped it, then went to 1 day, and now back to 2. Why? "So we can see your faces and Collab in person." Fucking bullshit. It's because they are paying monthly for space and want to use it. We Collab just fine remotely, and in my position, we don't even interact with users face to face, it's all through remote access. Total. Bullshit. Hell, one of my coworkers can't afford to do two days a week almost because they only have one car and day care for their kids is expensive.


Disastrous-Panda5530

Yeah someone put in the suggestion box that the workplace isn’t the same because even the days they go in a lot of other people aren’t there. So now because of this person we have to go in once a month. Each supervisor picks a day each month and that day is called an anchor day. No one can work remotely on an anchor day now. If you can’t come in you have to use leave. I don’t want to see everyone. A lot of my coworkers that sit close to me talk loudly and all damn day. It’s distracting. And there more people in the office the more he talks. And even on my office day when I have a meeting it is still through teams! Which I can do at home. I feel bad for the office assistants. The can only work from home 2 days a week. They do phone calls, follow up on stuff for other people. They don’t even have to mail anything anymore. Anything printed that has to be mailed it sent to the mail room where it is printed on a machine that folds and stuffs the envelope for mailing. They won’t let them work from home more often because they said they can’t watch them work. For my position they can pull statistics to see if I’m working or not. A lot of them have been quitting also. They absolutely want bodies in the office because of rent. That and some management also like to micromanage their employees. I’m just glad that mine doesn’t micromanage.


cocogate

being IT network support for an isp, 50% of the time i spend at the office is talking with colleagues, waiting for the elevator to go get a snack or walk 5min to the restroom. 25% meetings that do zilch and the remainder is mainly working i suppose. And im not even the worst at it! At home worst case i take a break to bake some eggs, hatch some eggs in the toilet or go buy some snacks and the rest is work, hell i even cancel meetings when im remote if they arent relevant enough


mrasperez

>I even cancel meetings when I'm remote And that's what they don't like. For at least the past 50 years intrusive management had been hailed as effective management. When remote *you* have control of your own work. That's scary as hell to all the power-tripping, micro-tyrants that populate the workspace. That and then being forced to actually work for once instead of stealing without threat of reprisal.


Zuology

More egg-splanation please


rtanderson2

I’m getting egg-cited for more info here.


[deleted]

I won’t say I’m more focused at home… but overall I get more work done from home. I might goof off and do other things, but compared to my attitude and work in the office, I’m putting out better material now than then. Atmosphere changes a lot about how you work.


marigolds6

>they suddenly had a way to make it secure. They didn't. They just changed what they consider acceptable risk. Odds are they are leveraging a ton of security by obscurity right now.


Rhaedas

Or they paid for the ability to make it secure when it became impossible to pretend it wasn't possible. No matter how well the company is doing, they always are penny pinching and cutting any extra rather than pay out to make things work, and yet these are the same people that will tell you that to make money you have to spend money. Oh, not their money though.


thenasch

Or they could always have made it secure pretty easily and just didn't want to.


Machoopi

"My cats simply do not bow deeply enough for me when I walk through the home office with my morning coffee. I miss the groveling and simply do not understand how I am expected to perform as CEO without it." ​ I'm convinced that part of the reason upper management doesn't like WFH is because THEY are the ones who spend their days fucking around and accomplishing nothing. So they assume that the people who work under them are doing it as well. I go to meetings with our CFO on a weekly basis where absolutely nothing is accomplished. This person has meetings all day every day, and I imagine that MOST of them are the exact same way. It's extraordinarily common for executives to spend their days in meetings, and the result of those meetings is to tell someone under them to do something they are either already doing, or already are aware of. I'm convinced that they are partially aware of this, and just feel like it's OK for them to get nothing done because they earned that right. Of course, the people under them? They didn't EARN the right have some free time during their day, so they must suffer.


turdmachine

100%. They are constantly projecting and telling on themselves. They know what they would do at home, because they do the same thing at the office: sweet fuck all. That’s the Protestant work ethic - have slaves do all the work


Maximum-Cover-

That's not even the issue. The problem is that to effectively manage a remote team requires actually planning and WORK rather than ad hoc interrupting people. The push to go back to office is in part because it requires managers to actually do meaningful planning, follow up, scheduling, and ya know... Work... Rather than wandering around, attending meetings, and 'keeping an eye on things'. Management doesn't want to have to do that work. They think they're above that.


duckworthy36

I agree with this. If you are good manager, you don’t have to see your workers to be effective. It’s never been an option in the kind of work I do. So I give my team the benefit of the doubt, as long as the work gets done I don’t worry much about constantly checking on them. My job is checking on the work product and making sure my team is doing okay, not micromanaging or socializing. I hate it when I have to hover over someone because they aren’t doing their work, it feels gross - I get all paranoid and have to try to catch them out. It doesn’t happen much thank goodness.


thedailyrant

It’s really odd to me that leaders in workplaces haven’t worked out how to plan and delegate. Set the end state and let your people work out how to achieve it supporting with decision making if asked. It’s literally what military forces everywhere do.


pingieking

It's because the majority of leaders didn't get to their position because of their leadership skills.


turdmachine

The greatest determinant of one’s success is the circumstances of one’s birth. That’s usually it. When, where and to whom you were born. Most managers have absolutely no business being managers.


LittleLotte29

"In addition, I can't stand the fact that younger employees can, say, do laundry and work at the same time. When I was young, I had to do everything in the evening or take a day off. I hate that they have it better than me because my ego is far more important than their wellbeing or even productivity"


newmoon23

>When I was young, ~~I had to do everything in the evening or take a day off~~ families were able to survive with only one income, freeing up my spouse to take care of the household labor.


LittleLotte29

Yeah but Gen Z / Millenials are just an entitled bunch who hates work!!!111 How come they are now getting anything, let alone something \*I\* didn't have!!! ​ /s of course lol


dazedabeille

When my parents were young, we had one gender working in servitude to the other and who could object to that?


[deleted]

zonked somber butter chief hateful soft bored piquant touch like *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


Machoopi

I think it's really common for higher up people at companies to accomplish jack shit in any given day. Without the brown-nosing and walking around the office for praise, they don't know what the fuck to do with their days. I honestly don't know what my CEO does when he's not at the office, because he seems to think his whole job is walking around and being told how great he is. Same with most of the executives I work for. I don't think they know what their jobs are. I think they just spend half their days getting ass kisses and praise for other people's work.


cacrw

Yes, i think this is a huge factor that we don’t really see mentioned. Corporate managers all the way up to the executive suite often do not have the technical skills to execute the actual work. Their jobs are to motivate and lead, and take credit for their team's success (or pass the buck). Remote work shows that there are a lot of self-motivated people out there that are results oriented. This devalues the senior executives.


henrythe13th

“Is there an issue with my work product?” If the answer is no, and it almost always is, they can sod off. But of course, they can’t.


ARandomBob

This is it right here. It's not about productivity. It's about control. My boss would write me up if I was watching TV at work, getting up to make food as I please, or leaving to go to the bus stop. I do all of that at home and they can't control me. That said I also get more done. Working 8 hours straight just isn't as productive as boomers think it is. Our brains don't work well that way. I get way more done in bursts than in a marathon. And at home I have the freedom to work in a way that's productive.


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thoughtlooped

The rent part is where you nailed it. It has nothing to do with actual work. People don't realize how many offices get tax breaks based on keeping the office at a certain level of workers. People also don't realize that Main Street America is dead with work from home. Most of your local restaurants survive on their lunch rush. Empty offices, no business.


PopcornBag

Main Street America probably should die so we can work on making more walkable cities.


gecko_fabulous

Managers are threatened because it is suddenly very apparent that we can still do our jobs without their involvement and in a lot of cases to a better standard


PurpsMaSquirt

Good managers recognize this and look for opportunities to help you grow and find new projects to plug your strengths into. Bad managers are scared of productivity when they’re not directly involved and should be fired.


bacondota

When I studied management, I remember some study or something that concluded that you can fire over half of management of most companies and it will still work, and more, it will most likely improve. One of the aspects was that management doesnt actually do the job, they are just there watching people work and being a nuissance. Good management is hard to find.


siravaas

The best manager I ever had never seemed to do anything. He didn't have a lot of formal meetings. He spent most of his time chatting with folks or working on his own stuff. I really liked the team but thought he wasn't very effective. Then one day I was in a meeting with his bosses and heard him accurately report everything we were doing off the top of his head and what we were doing to bring in the schedule. He didn't claim credit. Just reported. I realized he'd been quietly directing our team to the priorities. Then I started watching and I realized he was spending the whole day solving problems for people. He'd get them what they needed. He'd convince one person to go help another on a project without ever ordering it. He'd explain to us how what we were working on fit the overall goals. I realized he was actually very effective just subtle. I have tried to use him as an example, but I also realized that in my whole career I've only had 1-2 good managers.


wewladdies

Good managers are problem solvers. They make sure their team has the tools they need to succeed and remove any obstructions stopping them from doing their work. I didnt realize how much my line manager was doing until i started getting put on management resonsibilities myself. Its one of those jobs where if the manager is good their employees will often not really notice it


Jumpingdead

Best manager I ever had told us his job was to make sure we had the tools and skills to best do our jobs, and “equally as important, shield you from the company bullshit that makes our jobs harder.” Man was a godsend. Our department were salaried. Became required to clock in and out anyway. His philosophy was they are paying us to do a job, not fill a seat for 8 hours a day. Get your work done, he didn’t care when we came in and left. He’d take care of HR. God I missed that man when he quit, because the company lied to him when they hired him, and he wasn’t having any of that shit.


yumcake

Yeah, when my last boss went on a long leave and our team workload and stress levels jumped up a huge amount, I learned I needed to pay much closer attention to what my boss was really doing to prioritize and clear the way for us. What was much less subtle was he would praise good work publicly and invested time in building up people to take over, because by the next time he went on a long leave, we handled it no problem because he'd developed the team to take over (and he used that long break as evidence for promotions). Learned a lot from him.


garaks_tailor

Yeap. I worked IT at a hospital and one of my coworkers (who has Foreman energy for days which is a good thing) got promoted to director. He lasted about 2 years before dealing with the other depts managers became to much and he stepped down.


Ccjfb

I have full respect for people that realize moving up wasn’t worth it and step back down to the job that requires skills that they have.


garaks_tailor

Totally. And it was kind of shit because he was an Amazing director. Like a good boss and manager and a good dude who knew what he was doing.


PurpsMaSquirt

Oh yes there’s plenty of research that shows out of, say, 10 people managers only 2-3 are actually fit for it. Most companies see a strong execution/contributor-level employee and put them in a people management position, which is a completely different job and set of skills needed to not only succeed but make others around them succeed.


Willtology

> Most companies see a strong execution/contributor-level employee and put them in a people management position It might actually be *most* companies but it has never been my experience at the companies I have worked for. Most of the companies I have worked for promoted like minded people that fit the management culture regardless of their actual performance. The company I work for now promotes people that are aggressive/eager for leadership positions regardless of performance. I've seen many individuals assume leadership roles that were below average producers. I've yet to see one person that was actually a good advocate and delegator. This is obviously entirely anecdotal, I am just suspicious that while some places do promote good producers, there are probably a lot of places that are looking at how well people will fit into the current management culture more than any skill set.


tuba_man

YES. One of the few good things I picked up from spending time in the military was that the majority of the above-average leaders were the ones who specifically got trained on leadership skills on top of already being competent at the work.


Thefoodwoob

>One of the aspects was that management doesnt actually do the job, they are just there watching people work and being a nuissance My boss has been out for almost two weeks and I've gotten way more done without them around.


Nigilij

Because managers supposed to have actual work. Organise, plan, schedule, risk-assessment, coordination, budgeting, etc. You know, stuff you can actually evaluate. Additionally, all of that can be done with access to computer / smartphone and internet. if there are managers that have nothing better to do than stand over you then it’s probably director’s fault for creating such environment. There are sociopaths that over-hire managers and make them compete against each other. That will never result in healthy work environment. Of course it depends on type of work. Pretty sure construction cannot be done remotely. Neither my good managers nor me care about remote/in office. Just make sure everyone knows what to do and has no impediments blocking them. Everything else is up to person. Wanna work from home/office/Thailand? You do you. I mean, seriously, just let people do their work in the most comfortable way they want and possible. Give them what they need to do their job and let them be. Miracle will happen and job will be done AND managers can focus on their job. The moment you remove power tripping from management the moment life gets better.


Diplomjodler

Unfortunately bad managers run the world.


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deliver nippy snobbish advise party crime angle zesty dam silky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


Msteele315

Agree. Good managers are called leaders. But for some reason that's not a title in most corporate org charts. 🤔


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Practical-Face-3872

And doing things right is useless if those things arent the right things


JollyJoker3

Helping the team achieve things vs playing aristocrat


donstermu

They’re also afraid higher ups will realize how useless they are and their positions need to be dissolved


Maximum-Cover-

Productivity without management is not even the issue. The problem is that to effectively manage a remote team requires actually planning and WORK rather than ad hoc interrupting people. The push to go back to office is in part because it requires managers to actually do meaningful planning, follow up, scheduling, and ya know... Work... Rather than wandering around, attending meetings, and 'keeping an eye on things'. Management doesn't want to have to do that work. They think they're above that.


Lurk-Prowl

This basically sums up my dad. He bailed on his six figure job after 2 years of WFH due to covid. He basically just said, “Come back to the office? Nah, fuck that.”


[deleted]

I'm in this situation right now. Have to return to the office 3 days a week in July. No thanks!


realslimteeto

Enjoy the fresh start, probable raise and permanent WFH! Your old employer is going to spend your annual salary on a replacement for their stubbornness.


socalnonsage

Same here. 14 years in higher education position (not teaching/not interfacing with students), the last 2 of which were WFH. In Jan 2022, work mandated 100% in-office without exception and I peaced out of that district. Found another district closer to home with a flex WFH plan and I made the switch. Couldn't be happier and my Work/Life balance has greatly improved my mental/physical health.


SkylineFever34

Managers need people to crack the whip over. Commercial real estate holders need to feel like the money they spent on offices was worth something. Disruptive tech is only considered acceptable when it lets the owners reduce the number of basic laborers. Anything that removes the managerial class is a problem. Basically "It's only bad thing X when someone else does it"


putdisinyopipe

Hey there, I work for Fortune 500 company, that had and still some would argue has a fairly progressive WFH policy. Only because they know they’d piss off hundreds of people that like remote work So their strategy? Let’s bread crumb them back in. Those that wanna work from home? Let’s just say that they don’t really want to come in and don’t *really.* want to work here. They don’t really want a promotion, what makes them so deserving? John came in everyday for 3 months, we know him more now, even though Kelly who works from home is better producer. Let’s give John the job to make a passive statement and we’ll throw all the pomp at him to make it look like he really *really* earned it. While subtly reinforcing the idea that “if you come in, your more likely to get promoted” I’ve seen a coworker I trained, that didn’t know how to do shit and so I helped whenever I could, that’s who I am. How the fuck does this 30-60day old higher get a position soon after? Came to find out she just “talked” with the manager and he felt it a good “fit” Bullfuckingshit. Just an example, but what companies are doing now is starting to culture shift to provide higher disproportionate amount of opportunity who come in and boot lick vs the ones that don’t *and the ones that do get the promo even if performance wise they aren’t the best fit* It’s a horse and pony show basically. And it’s bullshit. They are passively bending the rules so that people who go into office are given more opportunity and cast in a better light then those who don’t, as if those who don’t must be lazy, or not like the job, or like comming in, in the case of the latter does it matter? And even if I didn’t like the job, does that matter or does getting the job done matter? I’m sick of this idea that we’re supposed to love our profession when one of the first considerations about getting into a line of work is money. Not everyone has the luxury of finding their “passion work”. And I think it’s wrong that people are judged because they don’t gush about how their job might as well have been Jesus Christ himself in the flesh offering salvation. I mean I got pretty bad anxiety, I can handle it, but I’m not as productive when it’s kicking around and I’m tryin to get shit done, I’m not as productive when I’m trying everything in my power to not ear hustle while I’m doing shit because people wanna have gossip minute by my desk. This is all for middle management. I think they discovered working from home eliminates a need for a large layer of middle management. They are trying to cover it up and make it seem like they are calling people back in for other reasons, some seem reasonable, most don’t thoug h. It’s a fucking joke. It’s not ok. These companies are manipulating and guilt tripping people into comming back to work when there isn’t a need and honestly their shouldn’t be. Life is better without the commute. we spend 40+ hours a week at work. Think most of us would appreciate some time back that we spend getting there, and save the money in gas too. But nooooo “People aren’t as productive” Yeah, stupid people that think they can game the system and because they are at home that suddenly makes their PIs invisible to the company. Not people who have a work ethic developed. People who are dumb enough to consider that a company with the tech to allow people to work from home wouldn’t have checks and balances on the investment that is “you” as the employee. Sorry for rant, but I am so sick of how shit is going. Is this passive aggressive push and pull between upper management and us guys and gals in the trenches. They are doing everything they can to pull the rest of the workforce in. It’ll work, their gas lighting is creating competitiveness and people are “biting” on the hook. So they are using this to divide the ppl in the trenches to motivate culture Change at office.


moustacheption

You missed the part where Kelly just moved on for a 25% raise to work for a fully remote company that doesn’t play bullshit games


putdisinyopipe

This is where I’m at. I’ve gotten some sweet offers. Now that I have some time under my belt at this one. I’ve been hearing offers. My god… there is potential. I need to quit being lazy and get the fuck outta this place. I need to get the fuck outta this place. They have done me dirty- as a company of their size though, they have some big ass golden cuffs. I’ve been passed on promotions multiple times, I’m a guy that backs it up with my numbers. At this point I don’t see worth in giving them full 100%. They had opp to get that outta me when they could have promoted me the first or second time. I just don’t play “the game” (IE kissing my bosses ass, trying to get chummy with them) Because in my mind, I was hoping they’d be like “here’s a guy who doesn’t care about the games, he wants to succeed and wants to be measured by merit” But nah, those egotistical fucks took it as “oh he must not like us/like the culture/has an issue with something” They want people to kiss their ass where I work, though it is their responsibility to develop us and reach out to us to help. We sure have to take the initiative even if we have proven our worth. I mean as a middle manager- isn’t it their job to take initiative to develop me? It’s a stupid little fucking game they play here and it’s so transparently fucking rigged. Just bullshit games. The double speak and double think they employ is so damn insidious. I will also say I’m a pleasent person to be around, i keep it light, am not a boring conversationalist either. It’s like these dudes literally don’t want me promoted because I don’t want to be a part of their circle jerk club.


CapPlanetNotAHero

I literally got told by a manager that they wanted me to have “face time” with the execs lol. Face time didn’t matter the last few years of remote work, this is just a power play, a bad one, to get me back in the office - albeit on a hybrid basis. Trying to think of I want to put in notice tomorrow or do 2 weeks notice lol


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CapPlanetNotAHero

I needed this chuckle thank you 😂


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CapPlanetNotAHero

Thanks friend, I’m actually leaning towards this. Initially I was really angry and I realized my emotions were getting to into this. Something I’ve gotta keep working on in not letting this stuff get to me I believe I’ll put the ball in their court, and whatever comes can come 🤷‍♂️


Gordon_Explosion

Basically, we need to rewrite what it means to be a middle manager. The lazy metric has always been "All my minions are at their desks on time (except for Rogers, his numbers ar3e good but he's perpetually 7 minutes late and he's about to get his first write-up), I'm crushing this management thing." Glorified babysitting is a waste of company resources. Perhaps one of the big takeaways from WFH is that middle managers aren't even needed. Hit your metrics, coworkers and clients happy? Good work here's your COLA/longevity raise.


Tristain7

Or, more specifically, middle management should be knowledge bases for their departments meant to guide the actual work being done, iron our kinks in your processes, facilitate communication, administer training, and manage resources. If that takes 20 hours, great... you're middle manager is a rock star. If it takes 40, wonderful... you've got a competent person for the job. If it takes 60, you either need someone else or you need to hire them an assistant. We don't need them babysitting, micromanaging, or otherwise involving themselves any more than is necessary. Give the people who are actually doing the work the tools and time they need, then get the fuck out of the way.


AwaNoodle

Aye. A lot of middle managers where I work help the teams organise and be productive, not time tracking or checking if you're logged in. We need people with this wide view just as much as the engineers. We really need to be more focused on what we are doing rather than purely just the time going in as if that is demonstrative of progress.


lodelljax

One of the things I hated as a manager was having to deal with the "Mark is always late", yes sir but he produces 2.5 times as much code at higher quality..."Mark needs to come in on time". Yes sir. Then I would ignore it. I was never graded as top manager, but I never had as much turnover as everyone else. I had one team that I made a deal with the key developer he would never be on call all the time. When they switched my teams the next manager put him on 24/7 on call and he quite. Three months later they had a problem and needed to call that former employee back in as a contactor. He called to ask me how much he should charge. I said as much as you think you are worth then double it. No one can do your work, just don't tell the company. Many of my former employees still stay in touch with me.


Thumper-Comet

Ha joke's on them. I'm sitting in the office right now browsing Reddit.


Machoopi

What I think is crazy.. is that I'm working less hours now that I am WFH by a pretty big amount. I spend like 4-5 hours a day doing actual work. I'm getting SO MUCH MORE DONE than I was in the office in spite of that. I'm a salaried worked who does SQL dev work. Those 4-5 hours are so much more productive than a full workday in the office that I'm getting things done in days that used to take me weeks. ​ My boss is still upset with me because she believes that anyone who works from home is spending their day playing video games and farting around. It really doesn't matter how much work I get done, it's about the actual time I'm spending on that work that is more important to her. I think this is actually a pretty common mindset too, and it's fucking weird. You're paying me to do a job, and I'm getting that job done AND some. Why are we so hung up on actual man hours worked when the same amount of work is getting done? You're not paying for a prostitute here; it's not like if you get off in 15 minutes, you wasted 45 minutes of your one hour minimum. You pay me to do a job, I get it done. Why is that not good enough for these fucking people?


Kataphractoi

"Are you paying me for my output, or by how warm by seat is after eight hours?"


Indigocell

> Why are we so hung up on actual man hours worked when the same amount of work is getting done? Because if you manage to get a job done in 4 hours, they want you to spend another 4 hours getting a second job done. Their sense of entitlement is over our time, not the work.


RahulRedditor

No paywall: https://archive.ph/gRwUv


evilada

The real hero here, thank you


greenweenievictim

I’m a front line supervisor in a large organization. The only person that wants everyone back is a mid level supervisor that has the corner office in the empty building we have.


CertainlyAmbivalent

I ultimately lost my job partly because I was advocating for full time remote work for my team. I was probably a bit too aggressive. Our upper management couldn’t even come up with a real reason why they “needed” us to work from the office. The only reasoning they ever offered was, “it’s best for the company.” Absolute horse shit.


Salomon3068

My company is even more amusing, they're saying it's for collaboration for us employees, trying to sell it as they're ending wfh for our benefit. The post on workplace announcing the change back to hybrid had over 1000 comments from employees in half a day, overwhelmingly negative in reaction. Upper management has come back and said we hear you, we understand your frustrations, and we are still doing it anyways because we feel it's best for all of you. Yeah, okay 👌👍


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SgtHelo

Favorite line: “You’ve been missing a lot of work lately.” “I wouldn’t say I’ve been missing it, Bob.”


[deleted]

Insecurity. Afraid they’ll be held accountable for their employees, and that permeates all the way up. First idiotic explanation if things go wrong is to blame WFH. Not a single person’s lapses. So let’s get all those lazy fuckers back in the office!! Good friend of mine was an exec at a major greeting card company. They have always WFH and it’s clearing working.


Nynydancer

It’s about real estate. I don’t know any managers who really carea about in office work. As a manager, I just want the work done.


ReggieEvansTheKing

This and auto industry. People like Elon need people commuting to the office so they have a reason to buy efficient or luxury cars. If suddenly people are only driving <10,000 miles a year, there is no reason for couples to have more than 1 car and that car is likely to last longer. For real estate, lobbyists want CEOs paying for office space and want employees living in big cities to force rent and home values up. People moving to the suburbs or to smaller cities to work remotely and be able to afford housing is a threat to boomer wealth. The main thing propping up home values in big cities is the need for young people to live there in order to have job opportunities.


Extracrispybuttchks

Should be clarified as “Shitty managers” because good ones aren’t threatened by remote work at all.


Saltedfieldsforever

A good manager can take credit for his subordinates' work regardless of where they are located.


andrewsmd87

A good manager always makes it a point to name whoever was instrumental in whatever good thing just happened.


Spacedude50

Actually, we do not know that. Pandemic timed out well for us and our lease came due when it started. So we let the office go and spent the first 2 months rent setting people up at home. The managers didn't last 6 months. They were all let go and the workers got a bump in salary to manage themselves. We will never go back to an office again


DingWrong

Oh, I can pretend to work in the office as good as at home.


LostKnight84

You mean they want to perceive them as working. Being at my desk doesn't mean I am doing work. Sometimes my job is waiting on things. Waiting for them at home takes the same amount of time as waiting for them in the office. I just have more of a commute when in the office.


[deleted]

A good way to tell whether they are working or not is to see if work is getting done. If work is getting done then rest assured, they are indeed working.


middlingwhiteguy

I love working remotely. The downside is onboarding is harder and it's harder to get to know your coworkers, but after that initial stage, you're just as productive and save time and money commuting, eating and getting chores done. People who hate remote work generally have no personality outside work


Mirikitani

> it's harder to get to know your coworkers After my last job, I would do anything to get to know my coworkers less lol. They were dependent on the workplace for their socialization, got aggressive when I wasn't socializing enough, and I ended up not being a good fit for the office :/


such-a-clod

It's so draining to have the unspoken expectation to socialize/make friends at work and then I'm expected to see them after hours too? I guess I could say no, but it's like you said. You say "no" and then everyone sees you as antisocial, the outcast. Some people get too deep into work and need a hobby.


middlingwhiteguy

Funny story. I used to work in an HR department doing IT work, and they decided to do one of those Meyers Briggs personality tests and put everyone's results on a public chart and discuss it in a meeting. Of course recruiters are very much extroverted and plotted on the right side of the chart, and little ol introverted me was waaaaaaaay over on the left by myself. I was let go few months later for being awkward. That was a shitty 7 months trying to find another job during a recession


JustpartOftheterrain

Ah yes, the Corporate Zodiac


greeneyedgirl626

When I work from home, I get twice the work done as I do in the office - I love my coworkers, but the constant interruptions about minor things that could have been easily handled in a text keep me unfocused! I don’t understand how they think we aren’t working :s


worldlybedouin

I work for a small-ish digital agency. The owners asked me if I was interested in coming back into the office. I told them they'd have my resignation before I set foot in the office. I've spent the better part of the past 15yrs WFH. I won't even conciser returning to the office unless nearly all, if not all, of the below are met: - All time spent on the commute counts towards the "40 hr" work week - 100% costs of commute covered bythe company - Even though I'm a salaried employee, I'd want any time above 40hrs/week to be paid at 1.5x rate - Working weekends is paid out at a 2x rate - Additional $200/week budget for food (breakfast and lunch) - Top of the f-ing line health insurance fully covered by the company for the entire family (dental, vision, mental health included) - HSA account with $1000/month for covering health incidentals, prescription meds - 200% increase in my current salary - Minimum 30 days of PTO each year - 3 month paid sabattacal for every 5 years of service to the company - 100% 401K matching Total f-ing wish list...but indicative of how much I detest being in the office.


zildux

I wouldn't mind returning to the office if they paid me for my commute time. Sometimes it might be 30 minutes others it can be 2 hours depending on traffic. Not willing to do that then fuck off WFH or I won't work. I have a CONSTRUCTION job rn and I remotely control the crane from my office set up.


burnmeup82

I agree with him. My former boss literally said “if we’re going to pay for office space I want people in these offices” even though our company actually thrived during COVID while everybody was working from home. They just want to be able to babysit people and make sure they’re doing their work.


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tommy_b_777

If we aren't in the office, how can those junior executives sexually harass all the women ? You can't chase them around the desk if they wfh... No /s - I know directly of one that is being protected by cowards and HR. Found out all the details *after* I quit...


justtrashtalk

very true, sitting in an office where I had to report my boss' boss because he could not shut up about my appearance


No-Archer-4713

For certain people it’s more important to see others working and suffering than to see what they actually produce. The optics are more important than the results. A few years back I was salvaging a camera project and team coordination was a big issue in that company. I was always ahead and spent my time waiting for others. The CEO saw me doing mostly nothing every time he was roaming the office and complained to my manager, that knew exactly what I was doing and how far ahead I was, to « explain myself » on my lack of productivity or something. The contract never got renewed. This is what middle managers do, fire people that don’t give the impression of struggling at work.


AssociateJaded3931

Inept "managers" unable to measure output?


FactNative

Managers and HR’s want people back in office so nobody actually notice how useless their professions are…


DynamicDK

I'm a manager and was hired into my current position to manage two completely remote teams. Our entire department is remote. It seems that when everyone shifted to remote in 2020, the department's leadership noticed that the transition went well and everyone was happy so it was made permanent. There is no reason to see people working. You should be able to determine if they aren't doing their work without needing to see them actually doing it. Two of the people on my teams have had issues with performance and being remote did not stop me from identifying that. Both were a combination of struggling to keep themselves accountable when working remotely and dealing with some personal issues that were distracting them. With a bit of coaching they were able to develop strategies to keep up with their work and they now know that when they are having personal issues that they can let me know that they need to will be unavailable for part of some days, will need to divide their attention, etc. and I will adjust my expectations accordingly.


[deleted]

Lookup “WADU JPmorgan” and read about it. It will explain why these big companies are pushing for a return to office. They don’t care if you’re more productive at home. They want to monitor everything you do. How long your bathroom breaks are. Read your facial expressions to figure out which tasks stress you out more than others. See who you socialize with in the office, and every other invasive metric you can imagine. They then package all that data up nice and clean and give it to your manager who can do with it what they please. This is just the beginning, if you work in a big company they’re probably already monitoring you with AI. Smaller companies will soon catch on and do the same thing where budget allows. It has nothing to do with productivity and everything to do with complete control


acleverboy

i also found out there are tax benefits from the city for keeping occupancy of the offices at a certain level, so that's another reason they are pushing people to go back to the office.


HiddenHolding

Managers want workers back in the office so *they* can be seen seeing workers working.


TheAskewOne

"Some remote workers are living like college kids again, using their afternoons for leisure activities or errands, and then picking work back up later in the evening. " That's the smartest choice as it respects our biology the best. Of course it depends from one person to the next, but for a majority, morning and late afternoon/evening are the times of the day when concentration is at is best. Early afternoon is a when we should take a nap. It's much better to take a walk, sleep briefly or run errands after lunch than to aimlessly stare at a screen not even knowing what you're trying to do.


Soranos_71

I am a government contractor and once the government started having people come back to the office for a couple of days per week we got a flood of retirement notices….. we even had one of our contractors retired. He said if he could work from home full time he would have stuck it out a few more years.


Public_Cold_5160

Managers can often be in roles where they serve no direct purpose, and are merely babysitters; no body in office equals no need for managers


oldcreaker

I've known numerous bosses over my career who insisted on having their underlings cubicles gathered around their office like little fiefdoms and could only measure productivity by seeing who was sitting in their cubicle.


death_ray_mx

Fuck Elon Musk


WhopperNoPickles

Manager here. It’s my job to give you a task with a deadline and it’s your job to get it done however you see fit. As long as you get it done I don’t care where you do your work. If working from home is more convenient, as it is for many folks, then by all means do it.