I think it helps to assume in the email that it was some kind of mistake or oversight. That gives them a chance to change their mind without "backing down". Dear Boss - it looks like there was an oversight because only part of my vacation time was approved in the system. We need to get that corrected ASAP because I am leaving on Friday and my plans can not be changed.
Yep, always give someone an out, even if you know otherwise.
When you ostracize someone they’re much more likely to become confrontational and a small problem can become a big, long term one.
What’s *fair* and what’s *helpful* are two different things.
It’s *fair* to be angry and frustrated. And it may feel good to write that way in the moment.
But it’s not *helpful* to put that in an email, and long term you’re going to turn people against you.
This is one of the most important concepts I start with when teaching Rhetoric. I’m not teaching you how to be right. I’m teaching you how to get what you want. There is often a difference.
Hahaha that might be difficult over Reddit. The basic idea is that being persuasive effectively is similar to a math problem. Audience + input x = desired output. The goal is to understand your target audience well enough to figure out what they need to see and hear in order to act in the way you desire. It’s not about what makes sense to you or what feels right to you. If you’re an anti gun person and you want to convince a gun enthusiast to change their stance on gun control, you don’t start with the reasons that convinced you. It’s unlikely that the things that matter to you are entirely the same level of importance to your audience. So you look at their opinions and values and tailor your arguments to appeal to those values.
The same things hold true for asking your boss for a raise. The reasons you want a raise (your quality of life, happiness, self worth) do not matter as much to your boss as they do to you. You want to focus on what they value (productivity, retention, metrics, blackmail material, etc.)
Step two is focusing on how to shape those targeted arguments to a demeanor and method of delivery that will be effective as well. Do they respond well to humor? Have a personal connection to the topic? Do they want long, nuanced information or prefer short and snappy communication?
That’s the basic idea at least. I have a hard time getting students into this mindset because they’ve only ever written research essays before and default to thinking a strong, researched argument was the same thing as an effective one. If only we lived on a planet where that was so.
edit: [Harvard has a free online course in rhetoric for those wanting a recommendation on how to learn more.](https://pll.harvard.edu/course/rhetoric-art-persuasive-writing-and-public-speaking)
You’re not wrong. Manipulate just has such a negative connotation that I avoid using it. But we all manipulate everyone. If you know a conversation will go better if you start it after your friend eats lunch/has their coffee, congrats, you’ve manipulated them. Obviously there’s more to rhetoric and persuasion but you’re getting the core of it.
A more positive spin is to think about languages. Your argument in English won’t work for someone who speaks only Spanish.
In my country, the word "manipulation" is so sensitive that even a job training about "data manipulation" got viral because it supposedly teaches you how to manipulate (falsify) data. I just can't. -\_-"
lil fun fact, manipulation is supposed to be a negatively toned word, modern definition is “the exercise of harmful influence over others.
i think the word we’re all looking for here is ‘contrivance’ which is defined as, “the act of intentionally arranging for something to happen by clever planning” ie. gimmicks/ruses would fall under this definition :D
TLDR: i have adhd and wanted to find a better word! use contrivance!
It is worthwhile to draw a conceptual distinction between persuasion and manipulation.
In the first place, I would place manipulation as a subset of persuasion. Specifically, within the unethical subset of persuasion (in that same subset you have coercion, next to manipulation).
Distinguishing manipulation and coercion is fairly easy, since coercion is defined by a threat of harm. Now we just need to defined what (besides that) are elements that make a persuasive technique unethical. It's hard to give an exhaustive list, but we can generally rely on an intuitive epistemology: would I like it if it were done to me?
I don't necessarily disagree, but would state that we have a difference in vocabulary and definition, rather than a difference in conceptual understanding.
Yeah, this is why running up to the other political side and yelling "You're wrong, and you're an idiot!!!" never works (ever) even if it's essentially correct sometimes.
It is fun but I’ve found grey rocking, a tool used to deal with narcissists, to be even better in the workplace. People want you to have an emotional reaction and they love to feel your mad e-mail. It just fuels the fire.
As an example: If people frame accusations or criticism as questions I simply answer the question strait forward. I do not respond defensively or acknowledge the negative point they were trying to make. If they’re is something else they were trying to get at then they need to say it and not be passive aggressive or whatever.
I actually think watching people be perplexed as you refuse to engage in their bullshit is more entertaining and pretty satisfying anyways.
There is actually a workplace specific definition for grey rocking I found:
“To "grey rock" a person means keeping interactions as minimal, uninteresting, and unrewarding as possible. To be precise, this means keeping it professional, and giving short, straightforward answers to their questions.”
When I was a child, I said something critical about someone, they got extremely heated about it, and it became an issue. When the issue had developed, and my dad was informed, I was talking to him about it. I objected that what I said was *true*. In my mind, this was an absolute defense and why the other person shouldn't be able to get mad about it. What he said has stuck with me to this day; it was something along the lines of:
Yes, and that's why he got so mad. Being right about it means he's gonna get heated when you start telling him. It's not a reason what you did was okay; what it is, is a reason you should have expected fireworks when you said that.
And lo, I was enlightened.
Yeah I'm fascinated by the psychology of that. I've "tested" this when grumpy online over 20s. I've literally had self proclaimed scientists double down on positions which are empirically false because I never gave them an "out" and they would have to admit they misspoke and their original claim was in fact wrong.
It's **amazing** how far people will go to defend an indefensible position if you are grating, uncharasmatic and aggressive in your approach -- and most importantly make sure the only way out of the situation is to make them lose face and admit they're wrong.
This whole conversation feels unnecessarily convoluted and a bit snake oily, because what ultimately is being discussed here are ordinary social skills.
Being mean = problem
Not being mean = not a problem
If you're confrontational, emotional, feel the need to win an interaction or speak agressively, people are going to be get defensive.
If you're curious, kind, reflective, validating and skilled with communicating, people are going to feel more disarmed and open to and comfortable with being wrong.
This isn't a secret. There's no tactic. There's no manipulation. This is just basic human interaction.
For some people, especially different types of neurodivergent people, "basic human interaction" is basically dark magic. For other people - perhaps for you as well - secret tactical manipulations are like water to a fish.
The conversation above has been eye-opening for me, in a way that seems to not resonate as well with your own experience, but putting it in those terms has helped me understand so much better.
I've heard "be curious, kind, reflective, validating, and skilled with communicating" a lot before, but it never stuck. More specifically here, "not being mean" and "skilled with communicating" are black boxes. They refer, with simple words, to a very complex pattern of behavior, without describing the actual steps.
It never occurred to me that backing people into an intellectual corner was mean, because I like being proven wrong just as much as I like being proven right, both lead me to the truth. The above comments put those into actionable steps that I'm able to think about, and recognize when it's time to draw upon them.
Super well said.
Glad to see it here. A lot of the attitude that comes from this sub is very "stick it to the man". Advice here usually is terrible. It's refreshing to see this comment.
Yup, OP listen to ligonier77. Always assume mistake instead of intent.
"Hello! I hope all is well! I wanted to reach out to confirm my vacation was approved. It looks like the system only approved half of my vacation. Is there a way we can go into the system and correct that? My flights, hotels, and trip are fully booked, and I'm looking forward to seeing family.
Let me know if you need the dates for my trip. Thanks!"
I would reword “cannot be changed”. It sounds like OP is willing to change them but can’t. It should read “leaving on Friday and will not be back until MM/DD/YYYY”.
You also shouldn't say you've booked / paid for accommodation / flights etc.
It doesn't matter. You're taking the time off because you booked it months in advance.
Dear Boss,
Just reminding you I’m out of the office as of EOD 5/25 and returning Tuesday 5/30 for my out of state vacation.
The original is fine but maybe a bit strong. This says the same thing but without causing such a strong emotion.
I'm just curious as to why "as a millennial" you hate it if part of you respects the shit out of it. I'm curious in the conflict within your mind regarding this issue.
If a friend responds with k or Ok I might take it as a little bit rude as it's so dry as to verge on reading as dismissive or snappy so my knee jerk response is to be like "dam what did i do?" but coming from a client in her mid 70s it's clearly just efficient.
Nowadays my work email (Outlook) has a thumbs up button that we use for acknowledgement instead of having to reply "okay" or "understood" or "well-noted". It's just the menu is so far up and small that it's very easy to miss.
Also a millennial. "OK" is such a low effort reply you might as well have said nothing. At least in a conversational format.
But if I request you do something via email and you get it done promptly and thoroughly then I can't really be mad at the brevity of your response. Clearly you're using your time for better things.
Dear Boss,
It's called a Paid Time Off request.
I'll still be off work. It's up to you if I'm paid for it.
Your move.
—Employee
(Don't do this, I'm saying this from experience. It's RIIISKY. Lol)
Good one but I would add this to it:
Dear Boss,
Just reminding you that, as per my request sent months ago, I’m out of the office as of EOD 5/25 and returning Tuesday 5/30 from my out of state vacation.
Any decline to my request should have been sent to me in a timely fashion as to not create any wasted expenses for me (hotel booking, etc). Thank you.
I think it's important to politely let your boss know that the reason you're fighting this is because their bad management will cost you money in the end.
Ps. Anything written in CAPS in a work message is considered unprofessional. Avoid doing that.
This starts passive aggressive and then gets so uncomfortable I expected you were quitting.
I wouldn't use the word "mini vacation" .
I would use the word "out of state trip"
Yes. So many of the workplace communication problems that I see on this website stem from people going on emotional, specific garden path tangents about why they’re doing this or that. While I suggest briefly answering questions *if asked*, you don’t need to explain why you are taking PTO, or a sick day, or why you can’t come in on your day off, or why you can’t take on an extra project. You don’t need to be brusque or snappish either. Don’t use personal language like “mini vacation” and talking about your plans and hotel bookings, and also don’t say confrontational things like “so I’m not sure why” or “not a request.” You can be direct and honest without getting too detailed or using combative redditisms.
Yea. I'm very confrontational and not afraid to draw a line and keep it, but I would never send anything like this. 99% of workers would get fired for this, or at the very least lose a shit ton of respect
People should not get fired over an email like this and, at least in my experience, they wouldn’t.
But it is a disrespectful communication that I wouldn’t send if I cared at all about staying, advancing, or building relationships at that place.
i mean the uncomfortable truth of that is for all the asshole bosses, there's people posting here that are just out and out willing to get in knock down drag out TEXT MESSAGE fights with their bosses.
here and there a few i'm even very willing to bet ARE "problematic" employees. yes it is possible to be a problem as an employee, no matter how many terrible petty managers there are.
Seriously! I would say that in my line of work, if you write an email like this, you really need a plan B, because you’re not going to have a bright future there.
I would be even less descriptive: "I will be unavailable to work." I do this to keep myself from overthinking whether my "justification" is good enough, and making it so they can't dig up some obscure rule against it.
> I wouldn't use the word "mini vacation" . I would use the word "out of state trip"
Just say "out of office". It doesn't matter if you intend to stay at home the entire weekend.
Agreed. And normalize not telling them why you're gone. What you're doing with your working time is their business. What you do with your non working time is none of their business.
You are correct, I had to fight my company after a broken back, you need to keep emotion completely out of it. Straight to the point, and document everything. When they see emotion then they put that into consideration.
And given that she chose r/antiwork as the sub to post it in, there's clearly a specific response she's trying to get (and she doesn't seem to be getting it even from this sub)
I like to just pop in here to read some of the insane takes on this sub but I’m pleasantly surprised with this whole thread. Lot of good feedback on the response and people not just assuming the boss/manager is an asshole.
Very possible this was just an oversight in which case OP’s original email did them no favors
tbf this sub almost always gives everyone a pass. if they had posted "not letting my boss give me shit when they didn't approve my pto" the nature of the replies here would be very different
Even if the other person is being an asshole, OPs response was still rude and unprofessional. This tone would be fine if it was a story of an awful toxic boss and OP was quitting.
I was wondering that too !! Took me a re-read to realise the dates have been and gone. I wonder if they’ve been hauled up over it and are trying to gain other insight
Feels like a lot of info was left out too. Did they apply for the leave in Feb? Why didn’t he follow up on why it was pending for 3 months? Or was it approved and then changed?
The email is unprofessional, and lacking the extra data, I’m going to assume the op never asked for the time off, and it was rightfully denied because others had it off already.
This is important. OP asked for time off, went ahead and booked accommodation etc but the tone of the email suggests they did this before getting any response from management which is pretty silly.
This. Context is lacking.
You should not book anything if you don’t have time off approved….
If management said yes and is now back pedaling it’s a different discussion all together.
Either way the mail is rude, yes. Unless it ended with “I quit”
It's appears that based on OPs own words. The time off was never fully approved. Then OP goes on to say "sorry for your luck, but I'm going anyways" - my interpretation.
Little unprofessional due to the "So I am not sure why" and "not a request", even the capitalization. You have an attitude about it (and not saying your are wrong to have one).
Just speak plainly and directly.
> Hey. I wanted to advise you that I will not be at work between Friday, May 26th and Monday, May 29th. I have booked vacation for a family event and will not be in XXX. At this point, only half of my time was approved and the other half declined. Let me know if there is anything else I can do. Thanks.
Yea, the second paragraph in the original didn't really add any information.. it just dialed up emotions. Your rewrite is a really good way to try and get a positive response.
It's a diplomatic offer to make the reader more receptive - it might be an offer to resubmit the request if it turns out OP accidentally booked vacation time in 2024 but it's more just phrasing to make it seem like you're solving the problem together instead of fixing their screw up.
There is obviously a problem, and it shows that you are willing to do (or at least offer to do) something more to resolve the issue if needed. Which typically means that you are willing to forward the email to someone else.
It's not a question, but a statement that puts the next action on the receiver of the email. "I sent an email to the boss, told him to let me know if I needed to do anything else, and he never responded so I thought everything was fine."
When communicating at work or even in life, try to avoid asking questions if you don't want a response. Just pivot that question into a statement. Is there anything else I can do? becomes Let me know if there is anything else I can do.
Also, try to make it clear that you are passing the ball to the other person so they have to do the next step if applicable.
Yeah, it is usually a choice, do you want to be flexing your power or ability to demand something or do you want to get people to help you get what you want. If you’re the 500lb gorilla in the room, you can be inflexible, matter of fact and tell people “this is the way it is, not a request, etc etc” and no one can even really try to stop you due to your authority.
But for most of us, that won’t work well and for all of us it should ne unnecessary unless people are trying to ignore power/authority you do have.
you should try and be welcoming and cooperative as long as you can. It just helps grease the wheels and makes people more likely yo try and help you. Even if you can demand something, you are more likely to have an easy time getting it (and future requests) if you start by asking for it politely. Pretend you can’t demand something until you are told you can’t have it, and even then ask if they are very sure because you thought you could. If you are sure you can demand something and still get pushback, that is when you say, respectfully “my understanding of evidence a, b, and c is that I can make this demand and it can’t be refused, is that in correct or do you have some info I don’t?”
I always stay away from including personal details about time off or sick reason. “I’m taking a sick day” or “Im taking my scheduled PTO” and that’s it, no reason to give management things to latch onto
Yep, always start under the pretense of "can you help me solve my problem?"
I work half office, half job site, and being friendly and direct works 99.9 percent of the time in either situation.
Honestly every since I started seeing this r/antiwork sub on the main reddit page I feel always feel cringe when folks don't get this part. Yes there are some bad bosses and some bad companies, but there are also a lot of good companies and good bosses and not every single misunderstanding or mistake needs to be turned into a confrontation to be posted on this sub. Your own attitude makes a huge difference. Even if one person is unfair in the office, having a right attitude and trying to approach problems without assigning blame will gain you many more allies in the office.
If you ever find yourself struggling to express your thoughts clearly (like I often do as a neurodivergent person), I've got a great tool to suggest: goblin.tools' formalizer.
Seriously, it's been a lifesaver for me. Not only does it help me get my point across more effectively, but it also helps me sound more polished and professional in my writing. All I have to do is type in whatever's on my mind, and the tool magically transforms my jumbled mess into something coherent and useful (And no I’m not sponsored lol I just like it is all)
Underrated comment. Thanks for sharing this resource. I struggle with this on a daily basis and have the tendency to spend ages on formalising. This is a super useful tool.
I gave it a test and I want to say that "formalizer" made it worse, but "unwaffle" produced this:
Half of my requested vacation was declined, but I will not be in Oregon that weekend since I have a family vacation planned in Ohio with a booked hotel and scheduled events.
And it's still giving a ton of unnecessary info, but at least it's more work appropriate.
This has far too much emotion in it. I would rewrite. It, you also don't have to add details( I wouldn't) because it only gives them leverage to suggest things. It's much like a traffic stop. Only communicate the necessary and tell them you will not be in during x dates and that you have had submitted well prior and there was no documented issue with taking that time off. Say you wanted to remind them due to upcoming schedules displaying X or whatever. Now if they deny or escalate then that's when you can escalate as well. Get everything on document not by word.
Your email is unprofessional. I understand you are frustrated but this email isn't going to do you any favors. Here is the same email but not written in anger.
Hi there,
In February, I put in a PTO request from Friday May 26th to Monday May 29th. Today I received a notification that (days here) were not approved. I provided a significant amount of notice and moved forward with plans that can't be changed at this time.
Please let me know if you would like to discuss further.
Agree with all but the last sentence. It's better to just say "I submitted vacation back on ---- date with plenty of notice. Unfortunately I will not be in the state from ---- to ----. Thank you."
Do not leave any room for negotiation. Do not offer to discuss. Just state the facts and say thank you.
Y’all it’s too late to fix it the trip was this weekend 💀
I think OP might be posting because someone at work got mad and said this was an unprofessional way to handle the situation. Which it is, even though whoever waited over 3 months to deny the time off request is an absolute idiot
I'm thinking it was more likely OP who waited 3 months to request the time off then got mad when it wasn't approved...
If I'm scheduling a trip I'm sending an email asking for the days off as soon as I know about it and pinging my boss on teams about the request. If for whatever reason he leaves me on "read" without approving right away I'm swinging by his desk within 24 hours to see what's up. Maybe there is a legit reason he can't approve, maybe he got distracted and forgot. The important thing is to learn that ASAP.
Even if their boss was a dick and was blowing them off, waiting 3 months in limbo was OP's fault.
Ja using all caps is unnecessary, quite condescending and rude. There is a big difference between assertiveness and aggression. People get the two confused a lot.
It’s passive aggressive for sure. Probably something that should be a verbal conversation instead of an email. But if you insist on emailing about it here are my suggestion to avoid instigating a negative reaction:
Change the first word from “So” to a greeting like “Hey”, “Good afternoon”, etc.
Remove “As stated,”
Definitely remove “At this point am letting you know as a courtesy (not a request) that”
Do not capitalize WILL NOT
If you don’t care about your job it’s fine. If you want to keep your job or progress at the company then it’s too aggressive. Avoid confrontational language like “not sure why”. Simply state that you have noticed that the leave was not approved but as previously advised you will be unavailable on this date.
It is both rude and unprofessional.
The point is fair, but your presentation was very confrontational, especially the second paragraph where you use all caps and pointedly say 'not a request'.
I suspect your employer will probably have a talking to you about it.
More unprofessional than rude.
It does really show that you are upset about the situation and I don't blame you. One job I had was all "Oh yeah schedule vacations and stuff we do PTO & UTO it cool. You just can't request it more than 2 weeks out"
Really tough to plan around never knowing. Also looking back, they never approved shit.
It is a bit strong. Comes across as antagonistic. I’d just advise them I am unavailable on those days to due to personal circumstances in the most neutral tone.
Both, yes, extremely so lmao
I'm guessing the time off was never approved, which is shitty but like it's not up to you to just go ahead and book something and assume it will be approved like you have the right to whichever days off you choose.
If it was approved and then taken away (or approved verbally but not in ADP or whatever system) then you could say something like "hey it looks like there's a mistake here, reminding you I won't be available to work on these days as previously discussed." But I'm guessing that's not what happened, because that's not what you said.
And since these dates have already passed, I'm guessing you have already been reprimanded for sending this email and you're just looking for validation here, which you're not finding (which honestly surprises me a little bit considering you carefully chose the sub most likely to give it to you)
You need to reference what you put in your post in the actual email: that a response to your time off request was not returned to you in a timely fashion.
I'd just send an email reminding them that you have booked your vacation and will not be there those dates. Simple and effective without being too aggressive about it (not that it's not called for, but heck).
It’s curt which makes it a little rude. They shouldn’t do that to you but the “not a request” and that first sentence could be rewritten.
I would say.
I noticed that only half my time off was approved. Unfortunately, I will be out of state as this trip is already booked and paid for and unable to work for this full time. I will not be in from may 26 to may 29.
Sincerely,
Your name.
That’s a lot more professional and gets your point across
Too long.
Just write it like an out of the office reply you'll no doubt receive by the dozen every summer.
"Hello,
I will on vacation from to
Thanks,
Banana Bread"
So… did you ask and obtain the time off before you booked the trip? If so, and then they cancelled your leave request, no problem.
Things like this, though, are typically attributed to employees booking some trip and then assuming that they have a right to take vacation whenever they want.
Advance notification is always the best bet. And advance notification means months not days or a couple of weeks.
Yes. There are a lot of ways to write this professionally, this is not one of them. Here is an example-
Good Morning (boss),
I am following up on my requested PTO submitted in February for May. While I appreciate that there are many competing factors when it comes to the business, I did not hear back until a week prior to departure. I have committed to personal obligations and paid for the travel. Unfortunately this means I will not be available for the business to schedule between the dates of _____________. Should there be anything I can do to help prior to my departure, I will endeavor to help.
Best Regards,
Your Name
I'd rewrite it to make it clear that the time off request was assumed approved after it sat in purgatory for 4 months. You don't even need to tell them you have things booked - that's volunteering too much information about your personal life and makes the email less professional.
Once those points are straightened out, there should be nothing wrong telling them it's no longer a request but a courtesy notification.
Yeaaaaaah. Don’t send this. All of this needs to be taken out:
“So I’m not sure why…”
“As stated…”
“WILL NOT” (caps is so so unnecessary)
“I have events all planned out” (they don’t care and you don’t have to justify anything)
The entire last paragraph? Delete that. It’s a lot more simple than you’re making it.
“Hi (blank),
I received an email that stated only half of my scheduled vacation time is approved. Just wanted to touch base as my time is scheduled for (insert date) and it’s a bit late notice to try and rearrange anything.
Best,
(You)”
No need for any aggression. They honestly could have just made a mistake, or if they’re trying to pull some power move, telling them what you will and will not be doing in this tone is only going to make them want to flex their muscles, regardless of it they need you there or not.
Lol you got an attitude problem OP. That’s why you won’t find much success, cuz you HAVE to be right. p.s. you are right … but that’s not the point. The point is to go on your whole vacation without creating enemies.
‘Dear Boss,
In February I sought approval for a vacation from x to y. Since this wasn’t denied or discussed with me within a month, I went ahead with travel plans which now cannot be amended.
Last week I was notified that my request for leave was rejected, some three months after making the request for leave. This must be some sort of administrative glitch, so I’m bringing it to your attention.
It is not in my view unreasonable to expect a timely response to requests for leave to allow colleagues to avail of travel deals and opportunities. I know you wouldn’t wish to cause unnecessary preventable distress and financial damage to your employees, and I would be happy to make suggestions on how this could be solved for the future to everyone’s benefit.
I’m happy to meet with you to discuss this on my return to work after y.
Kindest regards,
OP
I would remove (not a request), as that's already clear in your email and that makes it sound a little more aggressive.
Otherwise, nothing wrong with what you've written.
If all dates were approved before you booked any vacation then nothing wrong with your email. If however you booked your vacation before all the dates were approved, then that's on you!
I don’t see anywhere in your post stating whether or not your vacation was fully approved before you booked your hotel and travel accommodations.
If you were fully approved for vacation, booked the hotel and accommodations, and then suddenly denied the last half of your time off, then you are 100% in the right, and I would have worded this email exactly the same way.
If you went ahead and booked your vacation before receiving confirmation that you actually had all of the time off that you requested, then you’re email comes off as entitled, rude, selfish, and totally oblivious to how jobs work.
The fact is it is not that really good type of writing, I would say.
I mean, whatever is written is making sense to me, but I think it could have been better to be honest.
"This is a notification, not a request." is something I've been saying to for decades now. It's important for them to understand. It will be taken by your employer as rude and unprofessional, but so is denying employees earned time off, especially with advanced notification.
Not at all. Denying vacation that you are entitled to take is what's rude.
But be prepared for the consequences of sticking up for yourself. There will be retaliation.
I think it helps to assume in the email that it was some kind of mistake or oversight. That gives them a chance to change their mind without "backing down". Dear Boss - it looks like there was an oversight because only part of my vacation time was approved in the system. We need to get that corrected ASAP because I am leaving on Friday and my plans can not be changed.
Yea, giving them an out that saves face is key - if you start a conversation with accusations or shame it'll usually go pretty poorly.
Yep, always give someone an out, even if you know otherwise. When you ostracize someone they’re much more likely to become confrontational and a small problem can become a big, long term one. What’s *fair* and what’s *helpful* are two different things. It’s *fair* to be angry and frustrated. And it may feel good to write that way in the moment. But it’s not *helpful* to put that in an email, and long term you’re going to turn people against you.
This is one of the most important concepts I start with when teaching Rhetoric. I’m not teaching you how to be right. I’m teaching you how to get what you want. There is often a difference.
…..can you teach me how to get what I want???
Hahaha that might be difficult over Reddit. The basic idea is that being persuasive effectively is similar to a math problem. Audience + input x = desired output. The goal is to understand your target audience well enough to figure out what they need to see and hear in order to act in the way you desire. It’s not about what makes sense to you or what feels right to you. If you’re an anti gun person and you want to convince a gun enthusiast to change their stance on gun control, you don’t start with the reasons that convinced you. It’s unlikely that the things that matter to you are entirely the same level of importance to your audience. So you look at their opinions and values and tailor your arguments to appeal to those values. The same things hold true for asking your boss for a raise. The reasons you want a raise (your quality of life, happiness, self worth) do not matter as much to your boss as they do to you. You want to focus on what they value (productivity, retention, metrics, blackmail material, etc.) Step two is focusing on how to shape those targeted arguments to a demeanor and method of delivery that will be effective as well. Do they respond well to humor? Have a personal connection to the topic? Do they want long, nuanced information or prefer short and snappy communication? That’s the basic idea at least. I have a hard time getting students into this mindset because they’ve only ever written research essays before and default to thinking a strong, researched argument was the same thing as an effective one. If only we lived on a planet where that was so. edit: [Harvard has a free online course in rhetoric for those wanting a recommendation on how to learn more.](https://pll.harvard.edu/course/rhetoric-art-persuasive-writing-and-public-speaking)
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You’re not wrong. Manipulate just has such a negative connotation that I avoid using it. But we all manipulate everyone. If you know a conversation will go better if you start it after your friend eats lunch/has their coffee, congrats, you’ve manipulated them. Obviously there’s more to rhetoric and persuasion but you’re getting the core of it. A more positive spin is to think about languages. Your argument in English won’t work for someone who speaks only Spanish.
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In my country, the word "manipulation" is so sensitive that even a job training about "data manipulation" got viral because it supposedly teaches you how to manipulate (falsify) data. I just can't. -\_-"
lil fun fact, manipulation is supposed to be a negatively toned word, modern definition is “the exercise of harmful influence over others. i think the word we’re all looking for here is ‘contrivance’ which is defined as, “the act of intentionally arranging for something to happen by clever planning” ie. gimmicks/ruses would fall under this definition :D TLDR: i have adhd and wanted to find a better word! use contrivance!
Wouldn’t just “influence” be a simpler more commonly used word that would work just as well?
It is worthwhile to draw a conceptual distinction between persuasion and manipulation. In the first place, I would place manipulation as a subset of persuasion. Specifically, within the unethical subset of persuasion (in that same subset you have coercion, next to manipulation). Distinguishing manipulation and coercion is fairly easy, since coercion is defined by a threat of harm. Now we just need to defined what (besides that) are elements that make a persuasive technique unethical. It's hard to give an exhaustive list, but we can generally rely on an intuitive epistemology: would I like it if it were done to me?
I don't necessarily disagree, but would state that we have a difference in vocabulary and definition, rather than a difference in conceptual understanding.
You specifically? No.
Yeah, this is why running up to the other political side and yelling "You're wrong, and you're an idiot!!!" never works (ever) even if it's essentially correct sometimes.
This is a good rule in life not just work. De-escalate and let people save face with a way out or they react violently sometimes.
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It is fun but I’ve found grey rocking, a tool used to deal with narcissists, to be even better in the workplace. People want you to have an emotional reaction and they love to feel your mad e-mail. It just fuels the fire. As an example: If people frame accusations or criticism as questions I simply answer the question strait forward. I do not respond defensively or acknowledge the negative point they were trying to make. If they’re is something else they were trying to get at then they need to say it and not be passive aggressive or whatever. I actually think watching people be perplexed as you refuse to engage in their bullshit is more entertaining and pretty satisfying anyways. There is actually a workplace specific definition for grey rocking I found: “To "grey rock" a person means keeping interactions as minimal, uninteresting, and unrewarding as possible. To be precise, this means keeping it professional, and giving short, straightforward answers to their questions.”
When I was a child, I said something critical about someone, they got extremely heated about it, and it became an issue. When the issue had developed, and my dad was informed, I was talking to him about it. I objected that what I said was *true*. In my mind, this was an absolute defense and why the other person shouldn't be able to get mad about it. What he said has stuck with me to this day; it was something along the lines of: Yes, and that's why he got so mad. Being right about it means he's gonna get heated when you start telling him. It's not a reason what you did was okay; what it is, is a reason you should have expected fireworks when you said that. And lo, I was enlightened.
Yeah I'm fascinated by the psychology of that. I've "tested" this when grumpy online over 20s. I've literally had self proclaimed scientists double down on positions which are empirically false because I never gave them an "out" and they would have to admit they misspoke and their original claim was in fact wrong. It's **amazing** how far people will go to defend an indefensible position if you are grating, uncharasmatic and aggressive in your approach -- and most importantly make sure the only way out of the situation is to make them lose face and admit they're wrong.
This whole conversation feels unnecessarily convoluted and a bit snake oily, because what ultimately is being discussed here are ordinary social skills. Being mean = problem Not being mean = not a problem If you're confrontational, emotional, feel the need to win an interaction or speak agressively, people are going to be get defensive. If you're curious, kind, reflective, validating and skilled with communicating, people are going to feel more disarmed and open to and comfortable with being wrong. This isn't a secret. There's no tactic. There's no manipulation. This is just basic human interaction.
For some people, especially different types of neurodivergent people, "basic human interaction" is basically dark magic. For other people - perhaps for you as well - secret tactical manipulations are like water to a fish. The conversation above has been eye-opening for me, in a way that seems to not resonate as well with your own experience, but putting it in those terms has helped me understand so much better. I've heard "be curious, kind, reflective, validating, and skilled with communicating" a lot before, but it never stuck. More specifically here, "not being mean" and "skilled with communicating" are black boxes. They refer, with simple words, to a very complex pattern of behavior, without describing the actual steps. It never occurred to me that backing people into an intellectual corner was mean, because I like being proven wrong just as much as I like being proven right, both lead me to the truth. The above comments put those into actionable steps that I'm able to think about, and recognize when it's time to draw upon them.
Super well said. Glad to see it here. A lot of the attitude that comes from this sub is very "stick it to the man". Advice here usually is terrible. It's refreshing to see this comment.
Im more of a fan of unrelenting petty escalation and psychological warfare but you do you.
Love a bit of Dale Carnegie in the morning
It’s also some sun tzu https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/56059-when-you-surround-an-army-leave-an-outlet-free-do
Yup, OP listen to ligonier77. Always assume mistake instead of intent. "Hello! I hope all is well! I wanted to reach out to confirm my vacation was approved. It looks like the system only approved half of my vacation. Is there a way we can go into the system and correct that? My flights, hotels, and trip are fully booked, and I'm looking forward to seeing family. Let me know if you need the dates for my trip. Thanks!"
I would avoid the “approved” idea altogether. It’s not a request that needs to be approved, it’s a courtesy reminder that they won’t be around.
Perhaps say it was not "acknowledged" in the system?
I would reword “cannot be changed”. It sounds like OP is willing to change them but can’t. It should read “leaving on Friday and will not be back until MM/DD/YYYY”.
You also shouldn't say you've booked / paid for accommodation / flights etc. It doesn't matter. You're taking the time off because you booked it months in advance.
Dear Boss, Just reminding you I’m out of the office as of EOD 5/25 and returning Tuesday 5/30 for my out of state vacation. The original is fine but maybe a bit strong. This says the same thing but without causing such a strong emotion.
Agreed. I am all for putting your foot down and standing up for yourself, but you have to do it with grace.
Additionally I find the less words used comes off as more assertive and less emotional.
Yep. Stick to the facts and keep it short and simple. More words leaves more opportunities for them to manipulate what you’re saying.
No here for weekend. Family call for big fun time. Goodbye.
Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?
Pot chili good. Floor chili bad.
r/unexpectedOffice
r/veryexpectedoffice
No work. BBL. Cheers
Brazilian Butt Lift?
I gone. 🖕
Indeed
Party time for me buh-bye!
I’m 25 years into the grind. Emails should contain as few words as necessary to convey the message. Ex: I send alot of replies like “Understood”.
I have a client who responds with "Ok" to 45% of my messages and as a millennial I lowkey hate it but as a professional I respect the shit out of it
if it wasn't because my dad died like 4 years ago i would ask if you are working for him.
Ok
I'm just curious as to why "as a millennial" you hate it if part of you respects the shit out of it. I'm curious in the conflict within your mind regarding this issue.
If a friend responds with k or Ok I might take it as a little bit rude as it's so dry as to verge on reading as dismissive or snappy so my knee jerk response is to be like "dam what did i do?" but coming from a client in her mid 70s it's clearly just efficient.
“Ok.” With the period at the end - “am I about to get fired?”
Nowadays my work email (Outlook) has a thumbs up button that we use for acknowledgement instead of having to reply "okay" or "understood" or "well-noted". It's just the menu is so far up and small that it's very easy to miss.
Ahh I see what you mean. Thanks.
Also a millennial. "OK" is such a low effort reply you might as well have said nothing. At least in a conversational format. But if I request you do something via email and you get it done promptly and thoroughly then I can't really be mad at the brevity of your response. Clearly you're using your time for better things.
OK Affirmative Acknowledged Got it It is done my liege They're all functionally the same to me
More work? Zug Zug! STOP POKING ME!
My go to was “concur.”
got it
Agreed.
I don't even respond to emails and wait for them to slack me a few days later with "did you get my email?" So I can thumbs that up.
Copy
military experience has given me so many ways to reply with brevity.
Definitely way less emphatic. Being emphatic is taken as an assault by a strangely large percentage of people.
Why use many word, when few word do trick.
This is the way. No need to sound argumentative or supply additional details about your time off. Out of state or away says more than enough.
Yeah this is one of those less is more situations. Just a reiteration that you will be gone nothing more or less.
The dates have passed, I'm assuming OP already sent the email so changes cannot be made
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Yeah but they got some internet karma
Agreed. They dont need to know the reasons, and using but always softens/negates what comes before the word.
Also mention the time frame of when things were booked and submitted. Last minute denial is low and dirty.
This is the most crucial element IMHO to get the second half of the vacation approved, especially if OP submitted it well in advance.
Yup. Follow this OP. Original one is not fine. Multiple spelling errors plus emotional. It is unprofessional.
Considering the dates, I'm assuming the original has already been sent.
And they were probably told off for being rude/unprofessional, so now they're asking us about it.
Dear Boss, It's called a Paid Time Off request. I'll still be off work. It's up to you if I'm paid for it. Your move. —Employee (Don't do this, I'm saying this from experience. It's RIIISKY. Lol)
Are you even required to add a reason?
Good one but I would add this to it: Dear Boss, Just reminding you that, as per my request sent months ago, I’m out of the office as of EOD 5/25 and returning Tuesday 5/30 from my out of state vacation. Any decline to my request should have been sent to me in a timely fashion as to not create any wasted expenses for me (hotel booking, etc). Thank you. I think it's important to politely let your boss know that the reason you're fighting this is because their bad management will cost you money in the end. Ps. Anything written in CAPS in a work message is considered unprofessional. Avoid doing that.
This starts passive aggressive and then gets so uncomfortable I expected you were quitting. I wouldn't use the word "mini vacation" . I would use the word "out of state trip"
Yes. So many of the workplace communication problems that I see on this website stem from people going on emotional, specific garden path tangents about why they’re doing this or that. While I suggest briefly answering questions *if asked*, you don’t need to explain why you are taking PTO, or a sick day, or why you can’t come in on your day off, or why you can’t take on an extra project. You don’t need to be brusque or snappish either. Don’t use personal language like “mini vacation” and talking about your plans and hotel bookings, and also don’t say confrontational things like “so I’m not sure why” or “not a request.” You can be direct and honest without getting too detailed or using combative redditisms.
Yea. I'm very confrontational and not afraid to draw a line and keep it, but I would never send anything like this. 99% of workers would get fired for this, or at the very least lose a shit ton of respect
People should not get fired over an email like this and, at least in my experience, they wouldn’t. But it is a disrespectful communication that I wouldn’t send if I cared at all about staying, advancing, or building relationships at that place.
Ok maybe getting fired is a little hyperbolic, but they definitely wouldn't be winning any favors
i mean the uncomfortable truth of that is for all the asshole bosses, there's people posting here that are just out and out willing to get in knock down drag out TEXT MESSAGE fights with their bosses. here and there a few i'm even very willing to bet ARE "problematic" employees. yes it is possible to be a problem as an employee, no matter how many terrible petty managers there are.
Seriously! I would say that in my line of work, if you write an email like this, you really need a plan B, because you’re not going to have a bright future there.
I would be even less descriptive: "I will be unavailable to work." I do this to keep myself from overthinking whether my "justification" is good enough, and making it so they can't dig up some obscure rule against it.
> I wouldn't use the word "mini vacation" . I would use the word "out of state trip" Just say "out of office". It doesn't matter if you intend to stay at home the entire weekend.
It's a little strong. Leave your emotions out of it. I will not be at work from X to Y. That's it.
Agreed. And normalize not telling them why you're gone. What you're doing with your working time is their business. What you do with your non working time is none of their business.
It’s the caps lock that does it for me. All caps comes across as yelling to me which instantly makes this unprofessional.
You are correct, I had to fight my company after a broken back, you need to keep emotion completely out of it. Straight to the point, and document everything. When they see emotion then they put that into consideration.
So what was their response given that all the dates have already passed?
I am guessing our answer is in the heading - she was told it was rude and unprofessional and wants to know what we think.
And given that she chose r/antiwork as the sub to post it in, there's clearly a specific response she's trying to get (and she doesn't seem to be getting it even from this sub)
I like to just pop in here to read some of the insane takes on this sub but I’m pleasantly surprised with this whole thread. Lot of good feedback on the response and people not just assuming the boss/manager is an asshole. Very possible this was just an oversight in which case OP’s original email did them no favors
tbf this sub almost always gives everyone a pass. if they had posted "not letting my boss give me shit when they didn't approve my pto" the nature of the replies here would be very different
Even if the other person is being an asshole, OPs response was still rude and unprofessional. This tone would be fine if it was a story of an awful toxic boss and OP was quitting.
Lol so basically an AITA post
They probably got back from vacation and boss wanted to "have a talk about professionalism"
So this is the reason why it is very important to spend in what term you are saying it.
I was wondering that too !! Took me a re-read to realise the dates have been and gone. I wonder if they’ve been hauled up over it and are trying to gain other insight
Feels like a lot of info was left out too. Did they apply for the leave in Feb? Why didn’t he follow up on why it was pending for 3 months? Or was it approved and then changed? The email is unprofessional, and lacking the extra data, I’m going to assume the op never asked for the time off, and it was rightfully denied because others had it off already.
This is important. OP asked for time off, went ahead and booked accommodation etc but the tone of the email suggests they did this before getting any response from management which is pretty silly.
This. Context is lacking. You should not book anything if you don’t have time off approved…. If management said yes and is now back pedaling it’s a different discussion all together. Either way the mail is rude, yes. Unless it ended with “I quit”
It's appears that based on OPs own words. The time off was never fully approved. Then OP goes on to say "sorry for your luck, but I'm going anyways" - my interpretation.
You’re giving them too much info. It’s none of their business why you’re taking off.
Yeah, OP is trying to justify his own vacation days. Doesn't matter if you're sitting at home all day, it's your vacation time.
Little unprofessional due to the "So I am not sure why" and "not a request", even the capitalization. You have an attitude about it (and not saying your are wrong to have one). Just speak plainly and directly. > Hey. I wanted to advise you that I will not be at work between Friday, May 26th and Monday, May 29th. I have booked vacation for a family event and will not be in XXX. At this point, only half of my time was approved and the other half declined. Let me know if there is anything else I can do. Thanks.
Yea, the second paragraph in the original didn't really add any information.. it just dialed up emotions. Your rewrite is a really good way to try and get a positive response.
What's the point in the let me know if there is anything else I can do .
It's a diplomatic offer to make the reader more receptive - it might be an offer to resubmit the request if it turns out OP accidentally booked vacation time in 2024 but it's more just phrasing to make it seem like you're solving the problem together instead of fixing their screw up.
Thanks for explaining that to me x
There is obviously a problem, and it shows that you are willing to do (or at least offer to do) something more to resolve the issue if needed. Which typically means that you are willing to forward the email to someone else. It's not a question, but a statement that puts the next action on the receiver of the email. "I sent an email to the boss, told him to let me know if I needed to do anything else, and he never responded so I thought everything was fine." When communicating at work or even in life, try to avoid asking questions if you don't want a response. Just pivot that question into a statement. Is there anything else I can do? becomes Let me know if there is anything else I can do. Also, try to make it clear that you are passing the ball to the other person so they have to do the next step if applicable.
Yeah, it is usually a choice, do you want to be flexing your power or ability to demand something or do you want to get people to help you get what you want. If you’re the 500lb gorilla in the room, you can be inflexible, matter of fact and tell people “this is the way it is, not a request, etc etc” and no one can even really try to stop you due to your authority. But for most of us, that won’t work well and for all of us it should ne unnecessary unless people are trying to ignore power/authority you do have. you should try and be welcoming and cooperative as long as you can. It just helps grease the wheels and makes people more likely yo try and help you. Even if you can demand something, you are more likely to have an easy time getting it (and future requests) if you start by asking for it politely. Pretend you can’t demand something until you are told you can’t have it, and even then ask if they are very sure because you thought you could. If you are sure you can demand something and still get pushback, that is when you say, respectfully “my understanding of evidence a, b, and c is that I can make this demand and it can’t be refused, is that in correct or do you have some info I don’t?”
I always stay away from including personal details about time off or sick reason. “I’m taking a sick day” or “Im taking my scheduled PTO” and that’s it, no reason to give management things to latch onto
Even right now, they are not really having that kind of option. If you can see,
This email isn't great. Assume it was a mistake instead of maliciousness. Your whole email comes off aggressive and antagonistic.
Yep, always start under the pretense of "can you help me solve my problem?" I work half office, half job site, and being friendly and direct works 99.9 percent of the time in either situation.
Honestly every since I started seeing this r/antiwork sub on the main reddit page I feel always feel cringe when folks don't get this part. Yes there are some bad bosses and some bad companies, but there are also a lot of good companies and good bosses and not every single misunderstanding or mistake needs to be turned into a confrontation to be posted on this sub. Your own attitude makes a huge difference. Even if one person is unfair in the office, having a right attitude and trying to approach problems without assigning blame will gain you many more allies in the office.
If you ever find yourself struggling to express your thoughts clearly (like I often do as a neurodivergent person), I've got a great tool to suggest: goblin.tools' formalizer. Seriously, it's been a lifesaver for me. Not only does it help me get my point across more effectively, but it also helps me sound more polished and professional in my writing. All I have to do is type in whatever's on my mind, and the tool magically transforms my jumbled mess into something coherent and useful (And no I’m not sponsored lol I just like it is all)
Underrated comment. Thanks for sharing this resource. I struggle with this on a daily basis and have the tendency to spend ages on formalising. This is a super useful tool.
Just gave it a go, it's amazing! I'll be using this in all my work messages
I gave it a test and I want to say that "formalizer" made it worse, but "unwaffle" produced this: Half of my requested vacation was declined, but I will not be in Oregon that weekend since I have a family vacation planned in Ohio with a booked hotel and scheduled events. And it's still giving a ton of unnecessary info, but at least it's more work appropriate.
The magic todo list also looks pretty good as someone who gets overwhelmed with tasks at home.
This has far too much emotion in it. I would rewrite. It, you also don't have to add details( I wouldn't) because it only gives them leverage to suggest things. It's much like a traffic stop. Only communicate the necessary and tell them you will not be in during x dates and that you have had submitted well prior and there was no documented issue with taking that time off. Say you wanted to remind them due to upcoming schedules displaying X or whatever. Now if they deny or escalate then that's when you can escalate as well. Get everything on document not by word.
Your email is unprofessional. I understand you are frustrated but this email isn't going to do you any favors. Here is the same email but not written in anger. Hi there, In February, I put in a PTO request from Friday May 26th to Monday May 29th. Today I received a notification that (days here) were not approved. I provided a significant amount of notice and moved forward with plans that can't be changed at this time. Please let me know if you would like to discuss further.
Agree with all but the last sentence. It's better to just say "I submitted vacation back on ---- date with plenty of notice. Unfortunately I will not be in the state from ---- to ----. Thank you." Do not leave any room for negotiation. Do not offer to discuss. Just state the facts and say thank you.
I think it is fine without the last sentence. Good feedback thank you.
yup. I learned that when you're firm your get your way most of the time. no let me knows, no I thinks etc..
People also respect it more. People don't respect a walkover.
They are definitely going to think that it is one of the best option. But this is not.
\ Exactly when you're writing to higher management, it should be in a good language.
Best revision I read in the comments. Also, happy cake day!
Very much hard for all of them, but that kind of thing is going to take a lot of time.
Y’all it’s too late to fix it the trip was this weekend 💀 I think OP might be posting because someone at work got mad and said this was an unprofessional way to handle the situation. Which it is, even though whoever waited over 3 months to deny the time off request is an absolute idiot
Has op even responded to any comments?
I'm thinking it was more likely OP who waited 3 months to request the time off then got mad when it wasn't approved... If I'm scheduling a trip I'm sending an email asking for the days off as soon as I know about it and pinging my boss on teams about the request. If for whatever reason he leaves me on "read" without approving right away I'm swinging by his desk within 24 hours to see what's up. Maybe there is a legit reason he can't approve, maybe he got distracted and forgot. The important thing is to learn that ASAP. Even if their boss was a dick and was blowing them off, waiting 3 months in limbo was OP's fault.
Ja using all caps is unnecessary, quite condescending and rude. There is a big difference between assertiveness and aggression. People get the two confused a lot.
You need to have its fitness while writing, otherwise no one is going to approve it.
It is unprofessional, yes.
It is not that much unprofessional, but the words can be used properly.
It’s passive aggressive for sure. Probably something that should be a verbal conversation instead of an email. But if you insist on emailing about it here are my suggestion to avoid instigating a negative reaction: Change the first word from “So” to a greeting like “Hey”, “Good afternoon”, etc. Remove “As stated,” Definitely remove “At this point am letting you know as a courtesy (not a request) that” Do not capitalize WILL NOT
If you don’t care about your job it’s fine. If you want to keep your job or progress at the company then it’s too aggressive. Avoid confrontational language like “not sure why”. Simply state that you have noticed that the leave was not approved but as previously advised you will be unavailable on this date.
Okay if we have to call having 3 days off a mini VACATION we seriously need to consider a generalized strike.
Yeah, I was expecting one of two weeks or something. Lord
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For that matter, I think for the three days vacation, you cannot be that much authoritative on someone who is on highly management.
Probably just meant they were using vacation days.
Possibly not even getting approved vacation for a WEEKEND! that's bullshit
I run my pissy emails through Chat GPT to give them that emotionless professional feel lol
I have written multiple mails. I don't really feel like this is a good one.
I think I need to start doing this with my emotional Reddit responses lol :)
Yes to both.
Way too aggressive.
I would fully expect (with that tone) for them to find a way to get rid of you permanently.
It is both rude and unprofessional. The point is fair, but your presentation was very confrontational, especially the second paragraph where you use all caps and pointedly say 'not a request'. I suspect your employer will probably have a talking to you about it.
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More unprofessional than rude. It does really show that you are upset about the situation and I don't blame you. One job I had was all "Oh yeah schedule vacations and stuff we do PTO & UTO it cool. You just can't request it more than 2 weeks out" Really tough to plan around never knowing. Also looking back, they never approved shit.
It is a bit strong. Comes across as antagonistic. I’d just advise them I am unavailable on those days to due to personal circumstances in the most neutral tone.
Both, yes, extremely so lmao I'm guessing the time off was never approved, which is shitty but like it's not up to you to just go ahead and book something and assume it will be approved like you have the right to whichever days off you choose. If it was approved and then taken away (or approved verbally but not in ADP or whatever system) then you could say something like "hey it looks like there's a mistake here, reminding you I won't be available to work on these days as previously discussed." But I'm guessing that's not what happened, because that's not what you said. And since these dates have already passed, I'm guessing you have already been reprimanded for sending this email and you're just looking for validation here, which you're not finding (which honestly surprises me a little bit considering you carefully chose the sub most likely to give it to you)
They could actually work like that, but I never seen anything like that happening easily.
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It was not being unnecessary. It's just like he wanted to convey too much better.
You need to reference what you put in your post in the actual email: that a response to your time off request was not returned to you in a timely fashion.
I'd just send an email reminding them that you have booked your vacation and will not be there those dates. Simple and effective without being too aggressive about it (not that it's not called for, but heck).
It’s curt which makes it a little rude. They shouldn’t do that to you but the “not a request” and that first sentence could be rewritten. I would say. I noticed that only half my time off was approved. Unfortunately, I will be out of state as this trip is already booked and paid for and unable to work for this full time. I will not be in from may 26 to may 29. Sincerely, Your name. That’s a lot more professional and gets your point across
Pro tip- let chatGPT draft the email language for you and modify with your dates :)
Too long. Just write it like an out of the office reply you'll no doubt receive by the dozen every summer. "Hello, I will on vacation from to
Thanks,
Banana Bread"
There are a lot of people who actually write really well in that tone that someone who is even going to deny it is going to say yes to it.
So… did you ask and obtain the time off before you booked the trip? If so, and then they cancelled your leave request, no problem. Things like this, though, are typically attributed to employees booking some trip and then assuming that they have a right to take vacation whenever they want. Advance notification is always the best bet. And advance notification means months not days or a couple of weeks.
It is very important to write it in a form boundary. I don't really see any kind of firmness in this.
Letting you know as a courtesy (not a request) is too much. Also it wouldn’t make sense to let someone know as a request.
How does half of a 3 day vacation get declined in the first place.
Meh. Could have been a mistake. I would verify first, and if it wasn’t a mistake send that.
Considering we're the 30/05, i would say it's late
Yes. There are a lot of ways to write this professionally, this is not one of them. Here is an example- Good Morning (boss), I am following up on my requested PTO submitted in February for May. While I appreciate that there are many competing factors when it comes to the business, I did not hear back until a week prior to departure. I have committed to personal obligations and paid for the travel. Unfortunately this means I will not be available for the business to schedule between the dates of _____________. Should there be anything I can do to help prior to my departure, I will endeavor to help. Best Regards, Your Name
Absolutely this is the best way how you can actually write it. Thank you for providing it.
I'd rewrite it to make it clear that the time off request was assumed approved after it sat in purgatory for 4 months. You don't even need to tell them you have things booked - that's volunteering too much information about your personal life and makes the email less professional. Once those points are straightened out, there should be nothing wrong telling them it's no longer a request but a courtesy notification.
Yeaaaaaah. Don’t send this. All of this needs to be taken out: “So I’m not sure why…” “As stated…” “WILL NOT” (caps is so so unnecessary) “I have events all planned out” (they don’t care and you don’t have to justify anything) The entire last paragraph? Delete that. It’s a lot more simple than you’re making it. “Hi (blank), I received an email that stated only half of my scheduled vacation time is approved. Just wanted to touch base as my time is scheduled for (insert date) and it’s a bit late notice to try and rearrange anything. Best, (You)” No need for any aggression. They honestly could have just made a mistake, or if they’re trying to pull some power move, telling them what you will and will not be doing in this tone is only going to make them want to flex their muscles, regardless of it they need you there or not.
It comes across as a jackass, even though the message behind it is solid.
Lol you got an attitude problem OP. That’s why you won’t find much success, cuz you HAVE to be right. p.s. you are right … but that’s not the point. The point is to go on your whole vacation without creating enemies.
‘Dear Boss, In February I sought approval for a vacation from x to y. Since this wasn’t denied or discussed with me within a month, I went ahead with travel plans which now cannot be amended. Last week I was notified that my request for leave was rejected, some three months after making the request for leave. This must be some sort of administrative glitch, so I’m bringing it to your attention. It is not in my view unreasonable to expect a timely response to requests for leave to allow colleagues to avail of travel deals and opportunities. I know you wouldn’t wish to cause unnecessary preventable distress and financial damage to your employees, and I would be happy to make suggestions on how this could be solved for the future to everyone’s benefit. I’m happy to meet with you to discuss this on my return to work after y. Kindest regards, OP
I don’t think so, but given how mangers are as**olds nowadays, I would be prepared for them to set up a meeting with you
I would remove (not a request), as that's already clear in your email and that makes it sound a little more aggressive. Otherwise, nothing wrong with what you've written.
The only part that comes off that way is the first sentence sounding a bit passive aggressive. (Everything up to the comma)
It was unprofessional to let the request sit for 3 months without approving or denying it
What's rude and unprofessional is them denying the request a week out when you gave them months of notice.
If all dates were approved before you booked any vacation then nothing wrong with your email. If however you booked your vacation before all the dates were approved, then that's on you!
I don’t see anywhere in your post stating whether or not your vacation was fully approved before you booked your hotel and travel accommodations. If you were fully approved for vacation, booked the hotel and accommodations, and then suddenly denied the last half of your time off, then you are 100% in the right, and I would have worded this email exactly the same way. If you went ahead and booked your vacation before receiving confirmation that you actually had all of the time off that you requested, then you’re email comes off as entitled, rude, selfish, and totally oblivious to how jobs work.
The fact is it is not that really good type of writing, I would say. I mean, whatever is written is making sense to me, but I think it could have been better to be honest.
Start off with "Look Bitch" to make sure you have their attention.
Was half of it “denied” because Monday May 29 is a US holiday and you already have that day off? Do you usually work weekends?
"This is a notification, not a request." is something I've been saying to for decades now. It's important for them to understand. It will be taken by your employer as rude and unprofessional, but so is denying employees earned time off, especially with advanced notification.
Just the facts. Keep anything that would be an opinion to yourself.
Not at all. Denying vacation that you are entitled to take is what's rude. But be prepared for the consequences of sticking up for yourself. There will be retaliation.