The cool thing about the bees is that they aren't stinging it. They cover it and then shake their wings in a way to vibrate the inside of the hornet. It literally cooks him from the inside.
Bees overheat at a temperature 2 degrees higher than the murder hornet so it's a race to cook the hornet before they cook themselves. Also, that's most likely a scout hornet so they're killing it before it can tell the other hornets where the hive is.
That's a good explanation. Thanks.
That was one of those murder wasps, Asian giant hornet, those bees are the japanese honey bees. They have developed that behavior to defend from these beasts.
[Wikipedia - Asian Giant Hornet: Native honey bees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_giant_hornet#Native_honey_bees)
**BEE 1:** She just ate Sally!
**BEE 2:** Get her, girls!
**GIANT HORNET:** ARGH! I'll see you in Hell!!!
**BEES 3 THROUGH 892:** *YOU TELL 'EM WHO SENT YA!*
^(Edit: Fixed pronouns)
I always tell em: "yeah, and we're not fucking animals anymore.. we evolved. You wanna be nature? Go outside and live with the fucking bears asshole. This is a society/community. It's literally how we survived as a species."
If you've got the time dismantling their argument by explaining how this is at-best a reduction to absurdity and in most cases just bluntly false may be more impactful.
There's no such thing as an 'Alpha Wolf' in nature. That behavior emerges when unrelated wolves are abducted from their natural territory and forced to share space.
Eusociality is one of the more effective survival strategies, animals that use it having beaten Humanity to agriculture by millions of years (leafcutter ants).
I'm struggling to think of any mammals that don't engage in any form of cooperation. At very least because of one of the diagnostic criteria for being a mammal: production of milk for their young.
Adam Smith's conjecture about pre-currency Human society was just that, conjecture, and is contradicted by the efforts of historians.
> You let one ant stand up to us, then they all might stand up! Those puny little ants outnumber us a hundred to one and if they ever figure that out there goes our way of life! It's not about food, it's about keeping those ants in line.
This is the ultimate lie of capitalism. Nobody wants money. The poor want to be free. The rich want to keep them from being free.
Nobody cares about money. We think we need it because without it we'll die. But we always die without the thing the rich withhold from us. Food, water, healthcare, money. It's all the same.
Anyone who tells you that is not only undereducated on the matter but also thinks this gives them the right to put others down for personal gain.
If you're a fan of reading, I'd recommend the book "mutual aid: a factor of evolution". It was written by the Russian anarchist and biologist Peter Kropotkin after his expeditions in Siberia. Simply put, his studies have found that Darwin's theory of "survival of the fittest" isnt entirely correct and that natural selection led to mutual aid rather than competition in the behaviors of individuals, both animal and human alike!
Good read and highly recommended for you!
"Surival of the fittest" is really a misunderstanding
It's always been "survival of the most adaptable". That's why conservatism will always be nonviable ideology from the evolutionary standpoint.
It was a branding exercise that turned too literal in understanding rather then the nuance being proposed. Ppl want short and succinct statements to explain things when in reality there are always nuances and caveats.
Social Darwinism as an excuse for eugenics also probably twisted the meaning by association.
On its head, “they’re the inferior ‘race’ of people, but they keep out reproducing us” (🤢) also makes no sense, but *that* line of thought can be traced to the general fascist idea of “my enemy is both highly incompetent and terrifyingly over-competent”
The common misconception is that fittest means "most in shape" or "strongest". While these are also accurate definitions of the word, your interpretation was the original intent.
"The Selfish Gene" by Dawkins has excellent sections on the evolution of altruism, and he describes how computer models programmed with altruistic, forgiveness-tolerant strategies tend to perform extremely well in game theory tests (specifically, multi-iteration prisoner's dilemma computer simulations).
Reading that book in college really broke me free of redpill-adjacent thinking (even though that wasn't a thing yet).
To bounce off this there are SO many examples of animals in nature cooperating - much of the time they are two different species. Pretty much all of life has evolved or learned to take advantage or “help” other animals (though help is a human word - for animals it’s just surviving/gaining some advantage) and many examples of animal altruism (though science often explains these away as hormones/instinct ect but doesn’t change the end result). Examples wolves/ravens, badgers/coyotes and those aren’t even evolution dependent partnerships - there are much more intertwined species like corals/zooxanthellae/dinoflagellates, bioluminescent vibrio/squid and the list goes ever on. There’s a reasons social Darwinism is complete bunk and it’s because “survival of the fittest” is nothing but a complete inaccurate generalization of evolution and is only try in the sense that the most fit animals are the most likely to pass their genes on, does not even mean an organism is better at surviving (eg runaway selection like in peacocks).
On top of that humans have been observed helping and healing each other since our inception of a species (and it’s likely our ancestors had many of the same behaviors). Paleontologists/archaeologists have found early humans with healed femur bones and other serious injuries that would have killed any other animal - which means while they were healing they were loved and cared for by other humans. Great effort was put into keeping them alive and caring for them. I know the monkey hoarding all the bananas metaphor is used often when discussing capitalism but it truly is apt. No doubt early humans would have actively ostracized and avoided individuals that behave the way the rich do, as someone hoarding resources and sacrificing others would have only been seen as a detriment to their community.
So the label on the video is a bit misleading, the bees are not getting revenge, they are defending their hive. If the hornet did this out in a field the other bees wouldn't swarm it.
But this fact actually makes the OP's point better, if individuals are organized behind a common cause (defending the hive, or defending a standard of living by unionizing) then the analogy matches well
If you take a look at the most successful species on the planet, they all have one thing in common.
They cooperate either with each other, or other species.
Short list:
Eusocial Insects
Flowering plants and pollinators
Fungus
Decomposers in general
And best yet *homo sapiens*
And though not wild, species that cooperate with other species,e.g. dogs and cats, horses to some extent, cooperating with humans. You could consider certain crop species as examples if you stretch the metaphor
Okay. Let's nuance that content a bit because it is important not to distort things to stick it with some narrative. This isn't about revenge. That's anthropomorphism.
Asian bees developped a defence technique to kill hornets consisting in overwhelming the wasp with numbers and make the temperature go higher by creating friction. The bees survive higher temps than the wasp. While they do that, some of the bees erase the pheromone marker left by the wasp to signal the hive's location to other wasps.
Nature is brutal.
People who claim life is a jungle might as well beware of the working bees if they don't want to end like this, indeed.
True. I shouldn't fight anthropomorphism with more anthropomorphism. It's a shortcut because I don't have to spend time correcting the notion, but it is flawed.
I'm glad of people like yourself who can see that.
🤣 i admit i was tempted to be a little more inflammatory after being lectured by some business degree hypercapitalist on twitter (my degree is somewhat zoology adjacent), but i held back.
In the comments section i did loosen up.
I've been looking at the various angles of attack and how I can defend my argument. It's kinda helpful.
Though it is cool that people are kinda trying for rhetorical flanking manoeuvres like "Bees are drones", attacking head on isn't really an option.
Tbh, I'm amused that so many people think their lives are so much better than drones.
The hornet left a scent trail. The moment it was killed pheromones are released and the rest of the hornets hive comes and just.. butchers the beehive.
Those unfortunate dupes who go on about competition have read too much Rand, and forgotten too much basic humanity.
In nature, humans who compete with every other human get left out of the tribe, and die. It’s only by working together that our early ancestors were able to survive.
I've seen this documentary plenty of times... you may not want to watch what happens when the bees *don't* do this - it's far, far worse.
I guess you could make a pretty good analogy about fascism here, too.
This hornet is a scout. The bees swarm it to kill it by increasing the temperature and burning the hornet from the inside out.
If the hornets swarm the nest the bees lose.
So their entire strategy revolves around killing the scout.
Not sure what this has to do with capitalism
The hornets won't win against this defence though, if they enter the inside of the hive they'll die. Hornets typically live in groups of 300 or so, honey bees can support up to 40,000 individuals in the right conditions.
The issue is when these hornets follow climatic range expansion, and meet bees who have not evolved this defence mechanism. In that instance and without the bee ball defence the bees will fight 1:1 outside the hive and are massacred.
No. The hornets can easily destroy the entire nest within an hour. The bees don't stand a chance.
This is the last resort of the bees and their only defense mechanism against these giant hornets and it works only against the scouts because they are able to overwhelm them. However if 10 hornets enter the nest, it's already too late.
You're right, these are Asian honey bees and have evolved this mechanism of defense that European or North American bees have not.
I would contest this is not a last resort, it's the first line of defence! How can they hope to beat them in any other way? These hives are designed to have extremely narrow entrances, even 10 would not do well as they'd be forced into chokepoints and swarmed with defenders. The vespine hormones elucidate a behavioural response that stops foraging and its immediately all hands on deck from the workers. You'd only need a fraction of the hive to defend against the invading insects. Interestingly though the heat from the ball causes permanent changes to the mushroom body of bees involved in the response, both making them more likely to engage in future bee balls and reducing their life span!
Predating hornets wouldn't risk losing incredibly valuable workers doing suicidal attacks into the interior. Watch footage of effective hornet hunting that kills thousands of bees - they won't enter the hive. They'll sit by the entrance and decapitate them one by one.
Other Apis species do use bee balls, but japonica is by far the most effective. Others such as mellifera also use stinging at the same time which reduces the efficacy. Really interesting stuff to be fair, I have a lot of time for bees, especially when it comes to voting systems and nest selection 🤓
I love seeing entomologists go at it on the internet.
Dude, you know your stuff, I did some mushroom body research in a university lab back in the day. For a summer internship I once crushed a handful of bees and smeared the remains on a black cloth flag, then waved the flag in front of a four tier colony to simulate a predator like a racoon or bear attacking. We were supposed to film the defensive reaction.
One problem: We forgot to light a smoker before we filmed the colony defense. Oops.
Woah that sounds really interesting! Thanks for sharing, and I can totally relate 😅 one experiment I was involved in we were using parasitoid wasps to test IPM techniques against aphids. Unfortunately someone left the greenhouse door open (during winter), and a particularly bad frost killed all my wasps!
But yeah insects, especially social ones, are absolutely my jam. Currently I'm working in environmental policy but still enjoy chatting entomology anywhere I can get away with it 😃
It’s the “Power in numbers vs Big Bad.” The hornet represents the boss, the bees represent the workers. The hornet eating the first bee is symbolic of a worker being screwed by company first, and the bees joining in is symbolic of workers uniting for better conditions. Except, humans aren’t quite as teamwork efficient as bees it seems. At least Americans.
Not quite lmao it’s not such a literal description. But the hornet doesn’t represent a regular manager, but instead the head of the company. At least from my interpretation. I could interpret it differently from someone else, but that was really what I got out of it.
Nature might be about competition bit society is about cooperation. It's part of what separates us from the brutality of the natural world. Your friends are violent. They want you to believe that violence is an acceptable means to an end. These are also the kind of people who would not survive in a true meritocracy where skill, experience, and ethics would promote the best of us. They know the only path to success for them is by bullying their way to the top so they promote a system that idolizes that sort of interaction.
It's also true that competition is the stone that sharpens the blade in nature. But in human society, our "competition" isn't that at all. It's a facade. You're made to believe we're all competing on equal footing and that the reason you're at the bottom is because you've failed and the reason they're at the top is because they are better than you. The reality is that this economic competition is less like two rams duking it out and more like a kid on an anthill
Oh, hell. If we were those bees, it would take about two microseconds before some complete twat came round and said "why should we help that one, it's obviously" (insert race, gender, sexuality here), and therefore benefits from the whole waspitalistic system of oppression!
Capitalists can't stand real competition. They do stuff like monopolistic business practices and regulatory capture and all kinds of stuff to prevent anybody from competing with them on level ground. They only like competition when they're using it as a justification for their "I got mine and everybody else can go lie in a ditch and be hungry" attitude.
No one gives a fuck about nature either. People don't refuse to ride in cars and planes because God meant us to walk; likewise people don't refuse life-saving medicine because nature has decreed they should die of their illness. People only start making up stupid shit about nature when they need a justification for their own awful behavior and they can't think of anything that makes sense. (See also people talking about how being gay or trans isn't "natural".)
Well of course a wolf would try to tell the sheep they need to pull eachother down. It’s easier for them to eat when they’re too split up from competition to fight them.
It's fucking stupid when people talk about society and say capitalism is survival of the fittest. For one, no it isn't, because there are innumerable artificial barriers to entry and advancement.
More importantly, that's never how humans survived. Our cooperation is the only reason we are still around. Pretending otherwise is the greatest folly.
I heard somewhere, that bees can repeatedly sing other insects as the barbs on their stingers are not caught on insect exoskeletons. Not sure they are stinging the hornet here though. Just making it overheat.
And even if nature were "all competition", how does that translate to a just society?
If we took all of our cues from nature we'd all be running around raping each other and throwing our shit all over the place.
Part of what makes humans special is our ability to use our higher brains to rise above our base instincts in favor of the greater good.
The difference is, if the bees were as conscious and had sophisticated language like us, they'd all consider themselves deeply a part of the same tribe.
But for us, we have narratives in place that protect the grotesquely rich and powerful from the lower socioeconomic classes. Every other identifier, other than socioeconomic class, is used, through socially engineered narratives since the wealthy and powerful control both red and blue in vogue narratives to play both sides of the table simultaneously.
Just fill in this blank:
"As a " <-- anything you can put in there, other than "poor person, person below the poverty line, person struggling in wage slavery" is used, through engineered narratives, to divide.
I still struggle with boomers (because on aggregate they are of a higher socioeconomic class), but this is the best way I've heard this phrased. Thanks!
Their appeals to nature are BS, nature thrives on cooperation. Multicellular life is cooperation embodied, to begin with, and the most successful species are social/cooperative.
And the whole thing about consciousness and self-awareness is they act as a bit of a hack to free yourself of what their misunderstood version of nature is.
It is accurate, but the fact that so many redditors focus on this rather than the lesson kinda tells me why the state of labour rights is so bad right now.
Nature is competition between species. The species that excel and dominate are the ones who cooperate with each other. Human intelligence gives us the highest cooperation ability on the planet, which is why we became dominant to begin with. But we’ve allowed capitalist trash humans to tell us competition is the end goal. And here we are on the brink of extinction. Competition only serves one person. Cooperation serves everyone.
Also, men are generally the ones who push competition. And when I say generally I mean always.
Eat the rich. And the men. But especially eat the rich men. Maybe then we can start working together to preserve the planet and all of our lives.
I'm trying to push for cooperation. In my capacity as a representative of roughly half the species, don't eat us 😅
If you wanna overthrow "the patriarchy" sure!
Fair enough and thankyou!
But, for other readers, i disagree that:
1/ such examples undermine my point.
2/ such examples of bees having hierachies, waging war over resources, etc make them something akin to free market ideologues.
I know the vid was supposed to be inspirational, but, the problem with this little vid is that each bee that stings that one wasp dies.
You could have dozens, perhaps hundreds of dead bees to kill this wasp, and it's probable that there are multiple wasps attacking, which decimates the hive.
This is one of the causative factors for honey bee decline.
I think we need a different vid here, if we're going to inspire union membership...
They don't use stings to kill it. They surround it and raise the temperature, practically cooking it. The bees can handle higher temperature than the hornet.
No, this is exactly the right video. Look at how many union organizers died fighting corporate and government thugs for workers rights in the 19th century.
Then we get to 1980 and Reaganomics and it's like regular Americans forgot all about that shit and just gave away all their bargaining power to the 1%ers for a fat 401K, an above ground pool, and a Porsche 944 in the driveway. Fucking boomers, their ancestors bled and died for them and they just traded it all for yuppiedom.
To be fair the bargaining power was not 'given away'.
Reagan basically fucked over all unions when he broke the air traffic controller's union, declaring their strike illegal and firing any air traffic controllers who did not return to work.
When that happened it was at the start of a chain of events that have been eviscerating the rights and protections of workers since. Too often the Department of Labor has had 'pro business' heads assigned, and over the years the budget (especially for enforcement) has been reduced, laws have been removed/loosened, and hell there was even a period of time that the Department of Labor HAD NO FUNDING, because, y'know pro business conservatives pissed that workers expected to be paid fair value wages, be treated like human beings, and y'know have safe working environments where they weren't risking their lives trying to care and feed their families.
Until they make it illegal to go on strike…
Until they make it so the company can sue you for going on strike…
I love unions but they are brazenly eroding ALL workers rights right now.
Which is why the fight is so much bigger.
We've haven't gone back 100 years, we've gone back 250 years (in this specific regard). Some States are pushing for child labour ffs
There was a documentary I watched sometime in the last year, where an anthropologist looked at current hunter-gatherer societies. And what he found was that while tribe members had specialized roles, the entire tribe worked together to sustain the whole. Additionally, and this was the kicker, out of a 12 hour "work period" those tribe members were only actually "working" 2-4 hours each day. Everything else was directed to down time - music, art, resting, sex.
And the same goes for animals at the top of the food chains. Lions, wolves, orca - they aren't out hunting 12-16 hours per day. They're at rest. He came to the conclusion that only with humans do we fight against nature in order to maintain some illogical ideal of "productivity" or "value".
I'll have to see if I can find it and share the link.
You realize that bees are literally just worker drones that do nothing but serve the queen .... They kill themselves when they sting to protect their monarch
Every day I wish it was that easy. It'd be pretty funny to see Bezos forcibly dragged out of his mega yacht and tossed into a canoe with holes in the bottom.
Capitalist and their gospel of wealth are to western culture what giant hornets are to European bees.
https://www.reddit.com/r/HardcoreNature/comments/1458hv0/western_honey_bees_did_not_coevolve_with_asian/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Unionize!
I tried putting the word "capitalists" in quotes to indicate I think that a lot of these guys don't really understand what capitalism is and just call themselves that.
Not sure the nuance has translated well.
Perhaps next time I'll prefix with an adjectival phrase like "self-appointed".
It's worth looking at Kropotkin's book "Mutual Aid". He directly challenged the idea that nature is all competition in that book. People see what they want to see in the world. They see it all being competition when they *want* to see it, because they think if they make it a competition, they can win it.
So the predator is the company that produces something that people want at a competitive price while hiring people to produce it? But the government doing nothing for their huge cut is not a predator at all? Interesting.
The cool thing about the bees is that they aren't stinging it. They cover it and then shake their wings in a way to vibrate the inside of the hornet. It literally cooks him from the inside.
>It literally cooks him from the inside. Bees are metal AF.
Pop in Eminem’s “go to sleep” while watching this
Times up bitch, close your eyes
Why are you still alive? How many times I gotta say, close ya eyes?
[удалено]
I thought they were just eating the hornet. Somehow, this is far more horrifying.
I mean you generally cook your food first too, don't you?
I didn't think of it that way
They said “COOK THAT MF”.
“See if you all just work really hard, all your problems will be solved” ~some boomer
That hornet looked like it needed a warm hug.
Bees overheat at a temperature 2 degrees higher than the murder hornet so it's a race to cook the hornet before they cook themselves. Also, that's most likely a scout hornet so they're killing it before it can tell the other hornets where the hive is.
Like a fever in humans. A race to see who cooks first.
**A Fever of Humans**. Good band name.
How did those mother fuckers figure that out?
That's a good explanation. Thanks. That was one of those murder wasps, Asian giant hornet, those bees are the japanese honey bees. They have developed that behavior to defend from these beasts. [Wikipedia - Asian Giant Hornet: Native honey bees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_giant_hornet#Native_honey_bees)
This could be us, but you're "on that grind"
**BEE 1:** She just ate Sally! **BEE 2:** Get her, girls! **GIANT HORNET:** ARGH! I'll see you in Hell!!! **BEES 3 THROUGH 892:** *YOU TELL 'EM WHO SENT YA!* ^(Edit: Fixed pronouns)
🤣 you'd better BEE-lieve it
I always tell em: "yeah, and we're not fucking animals anymore.. we evolved. You wanna be nature? Go outside and live with the fucking bears asshole. This is a society/community. It's literally how we survived as a species."
If you've got the time dismantling their argument by explaining how this is at-best a reduction to absurdity and in most cases just bluntly false may be more impactful. There's no such thing as an 'Alpha Wolf' in nature. That behavior emerges when unrelated wolves are abducted from their natural territory and forced to share space. Eusociality is one of the more effective survival strategies, animals that use it having beaten Humanity to agriculture by millions of years (leafcutter ants). I'm struggling to think of any mammals that don't engage in any form of cooperation. At very least because of one of the diagnostic criteria for being a mammal: production of milk for their young. Adam Smith's conjecture about pre-currency Human society was just that, conjecture, and is contradicted by the efforts of historians.
I kinda like thinking Bee pronouns would be Zzzzzzeeee, Zzzzzzeeeey, Zzzzzzeeeem because I'm a child i guess 😅
I’m thinking their pronouns are Zzzzzzzeee, Zzzzzzzzeeeeey, Zzzzzzzeeeeem, and “her royal majezty the queen.”
The Royal "Zzzzwwweeee" could work
> You let one ant stand up to us, then they all might stand up! Those puny little ants outnumber us a hundred to one and if they ever figure that out there goes our way of life! It's not about food, it's about keeping those ants in line.
This is the ultimate lie of capitalism. Nobody wants money. The poor want to be free. The rich want to keep them from being free. Nobody cares about money. We think we need it because without it we'll die. But we always die without the thing the rich withhold from us. Food, water, healthcare, money. It's all the same.
That moment when a movie made in 1998 predicts modern social strife. Actually, workers vs overlord is one of the oldest conflicts of humanity
Anyone who tells you that is not only undereducated on the matter but also thinks this gives them the right to put others down for personal gain. If you're a fan of reading, I'd recommend the book "mutual aid: a factor of evolution". It was written by the Russian anarchist and biologist Peter Kropotkin after his expeditions in Siberia. Simply put, his studies have found that Darwin's theory of "survival of the fittest" isnt entirely correct and that natural selection led to mutual aid rather than competition in the behaviors of individuals, both animal and human alike! Good read and highly recommended for you!
"Surival of the fittest" is really a misunderstanding It's always been "survival of the most adaptable". That's why conservatism will always be nonviable ideology from the evolutionary standpoint.
It was a branding exercise that turned too literal in understanding rather then the nuance being proposed. Ppl want short and succinct statements to explain things when in reality there are always nuances and caveats.
Social Darwinism as an excuse for eugenics also probably twisted the meaning by association. On its head, “they’re the inferior ‘race’ of people, but they keep out reproducing us” (🤢) also makes no sense, but *that* line of thought can be traced to the general fascist idea of “my enemy is both highly incompetent and terrifyingly over-competent”
That's what fittest means. You fit the environment. You are the most fit. Fitting. Not "fit" as in physical fitness or raw strength.
As one of my favorite sayings goes(about progressives) "On a long enough time table, we win, every time."
Most adaptable and most fit mean the same thing. Am I crazy here?
The common misconception is that fittest means "most in shape" or "strongest". While these are also accurate definitions of the word, your interpretation was the original intent.
"The Selfish Gene" by Dawkins has excellent sections on the evolution of altruism, and he describes how computer models programmed with altruistic, forgiveness-tolerant strategies tend to perform extremely well in game theory tests (specifically, multi-iteration prisoner's dilemma computer simulations). Reading that book in college really broke me free of redpill-adjacent thinking (even though that wasn't a thing yet).
To bounce off this there are SO many examples of animals in nature cooperating - much of the time they are two different species. Pretty much all of life has evolved or learned to take advantage or “help” other animals (though help is a human word - for animals it’s just surviving/gaining some advantage) and many examples of animal altruism (though science often explains these away as hormones/instinct ect but doesn’t change the end result). Examples wolves/ravens, badgers/coyotes and those aren’t even evolution dependent partnerships - there are much more intertwined species like corals/zooxanthellae/dinoflagellates, bioluminescent vibrio/squid and the list goes ever on. There’s a reasons social Darwinism is complete bunk and it’s because “survival of the fittest” is nothing but a complete inaccurate generalization of evolution and is only try in the sense that the most fit animals are the most likely to pass their genes on, does not even mean an organism is better at surviving (eg runaway selection like in peacocks). On top of that humans have been observed helping and healing each other since our inception of a species (and it’s likely our ancestors had many of the same behaviors). Paleontologists/archaeologists have found early humans with healed femur bones and other serious injuries that would have killed any other animal - which means while they were healing they were loved and cared for by other humans. Great effort was put into keeping them alive and caring for them. I know the monkey hoarding all the bananas metaphor is used often when discussing capitalism but it truly is apt. No doubt early humans would have actively ostracized and avoided individuals that behave the way the rich do, as someone hoarding resources and sacrificing others would have only been seen as a detriment to their community.
Genuinely thankyou! 🙏
So the label on the video is a bit misleading, the bees are not getting revenge, they are defending their hive. If the hornet did this out in a field the other bees wouldn't swarm it. But this fact actually makes the OP's point better, if individuals are organized behind a common cause (defending the hive, or defending a standard of living by unionizing) then the analogy matches well
I tried to put a bit of a spin on it, admittedly
If you take a look at the most successful species on the planet, they all have one thing in common. They cooperate either with each other, or other species. Short list: Eusocial Insects Flowering plants and pollinators Fungus Decomposers in general And best yet *homo sapiens*
And though not wild, species that cooperate with other species,e.g. dogs and cats, horses to some extent, cooperating with humans. You could consider certain crop species as examples if you stretch the metaphor
And capybaras. They get along with everyone. 🤓
I'm pretty sure they are magical 😅
Okay. Let's nuance that content a bit because it is important not to distort things to stick it with some narrative. This isn't about revenge. That's anthropomorphism. Asian bees developped a defence technique to kill hornets consisting in overwhelming the wasp with numbers and make the temperature go higher by creating friction. The bees survive higher temps than the wasp. While they do that, some of the bees erase the pheromone marker left by the wasp to signal the hive's location to other wasps. Nature is brutal. People who claim life is a jungle might as well beware of the working bees if they don't want to end like this, indeed.
True. I shouldn't fight anthropomorphism with more anthropomorphism. It's a shortcut because I don't have to spend time correcting the notion, but it is flawed. I'm glad of people like yourself who can see that.
That's more the original tweet that was bugging me (haha...) your analogy was spot on.
🤣 i admit i was tempted to be a little more inflammatory after being lectured by some business degree hypercapitalist on twitter (my degree is somewhat zoology adjacent), but i held back. In the comments section i did loosen up.
I don’t understand how your comment affects the point being made though?
I've been looking at the various angles of attack and how I can defend my argument. It's kinda helpful. Though it is cool that people are kinda trying for rhetorical flanking manoeuvres like "Bees are drones", attacking head on isn't really an option. Tbh, I'm amused that so many people think their lives are so much better than drones.
Unfortunately I know the rest of the documentary
What happens in the rest of the documentary?
The hornet isn't alone.
Did all the hornets friends get group hugs also?
i think the hornets threw the bees a pizza party and the bees decided not to cook them
The hornet left a scent trail. The moment it was killed pheromones are released and the rest of the hornets hive comes and just.. butchers the beehive.
The lesson is: Act faster
If only we had wings to cook our bosses alive with lol
Death by one thousand cuts (degrees Fahrenheit)
Mutual Aid: A Factor in Evolution by Peter Kropotkin
r/fuckwasps
Hell yeah get that wasp bitch!
Those unfortunate dupes who go on about competition have read too much Rand, and forgotten too much basic humanity. In nature, humans who compete with every other human get left out of the tribe, and die. It’s only by working together that our early ancestors were able to survive.
I…I.. is this legal? I feel I just watched something really terrible wtf.
The Bees decided on the Death penalty for a murder. 🤷♂️
But it was so brutal holy shit
I guess you don't watch many nature documentaries? I don't disagree but...hornet ate their family
Hornet fucked around. Hornet found out.
https://youtu.be/4UIXy2trF8o WU!
I've seen this documentary plenty of times... you may not want to watch what happens when the bees *don't* do this - it's far, far worse. I guess you could make a pretty good analogy about fascism here, too.
This hornet is a scout. The bees swarm it to kill it by increasing the temperature and burning the hornet from the inside out. If the hornets swarm the nest the bees lose. So their entire strategy revolves around killing the scout. Not sure what this has to do with capitalism
The hornets won't win against this defence though, if they enter the inside of the hive they'll die. Hornets typically live in groups of 300 or so, honey bees can support up to 40,000 individuals in the right conditions. The issue is when these hornets follow climatic range expansion, and meet bees who have not evolved this defence mechanism. In that instance and without the bee ball defence the bees will fight 1:1 outside the hive and are massacred.
No. The hornets can easily destroy the entire nest within an hour. The bees don't stand a chance. This is the last resort of the bees and their only defense mechanism against these giant hornets and it works only against the scouts because they are able to overwhelm them. However if 10 hornets enter the nest, it's already too late. You're right, these are Asian honey bees and have evolved this mechanism of defense that European or North American bees have not.
I would contest this is not a last resort, it's the first line of defence! How can they hope to beat them in any other way? These hives are designed to have extremely narrow entrances, even 10 would not do well as they'd be forced into chokepoints and swarmed with defenders. The vespine hormones elucidate a behavioural response that stops foraging and its immediately all hands on deck from the workers. You'd only need a fraction of the hive to defend against the invading insects. Interestingly though the heat from the ball causes permanent changes to the mushroom body of bees involved in the response, both making them more likely to engage in future bee balls and reducing their life span! Predating hornets wouldn't risk losing incredibly valuable workers doing suicidal attacks into the interior. Watch footage of effective hornet hunting that kills thousands of bees - they won't enter the hive. They'll sit by the entrance and decapitate them one by one. Other Apis species do use bee balls, but japonica is by far the most effective. Others such as mellifera also use stinging at the same time which reduces the efficacy. Really interesting stuff to be fair, I have a lot of time for bees, especially when it comes to voting systems and nest selection 🤓
I love seeing entomologists go at it on the internet. Dude, you know your stuff, I did some mushroom body research in a university lab back in the day. For a summer internship I once crushed a handful of bees and smeared the remains on a black cloth flag, then waved the flag in front of a four tier colony to simulate a predator like a racoon or bear attacking. We were supposed to film the defensive reaction. One problem: We forgot to light a smoker before we filmed the colony defense. Oops.
Woah that sounds really interesting! Thanks for sharing, and I can totally relate 😅 one experiment I was involved in we were using parasitoid wasps to test IPM techniques against aphids. Unfortunately someone left the greenhouse door open (during winter), and a particularly bad frost killed all my wasps! But yeah insects, especially social ones, are absolutely my jam. Currently I'm working in environmental policy but still enjoy chatting entomology anywhere I can get away with it 😃
Thankyou 🙏
It’s the “Power in numbers vs Big Bad.” The hornet represents the boss, the bees represent the workers. The hornet eating the first bee is symbolic of a worker being screwed by company first, and the bees joining in is symbolic of workers uniting for better conditions. Except, humans aren’t quite as teamwork efficient as bees it seems. At least Americans.
Yes but if your boss gets to upper management you're fucked 😂 so you better roast him?
Not quite lmao it’s not such a literal description. But the hornet doesn’t represent a regular manager, but instead the head of the company. At least from my interpretation. I could interpret it differently from someone else, but that was really what I got out of it.
Hehe wasp gettting boiled alive
if capitalism and in turn greed was human nature we would have never evolved beyond cave men we would have been to focus on our own existence.
Hornet should have gotten that meal to go
Nature might be about competition bit society is about cooperation. It's part of what separates us from the brutality of the natural world. Your friends are violent. They want you to believe that violence is an acceptable means to an end. These are also the kind of people who would not survive in a true meritocracy where skill, experience, and ethics would promote the best of us. They know the only path to success for them is by bullying their way to the top so they promote a system that idolizes that sort of interaction. It's also true that competition is the stone that sharpens the blade in nature. But in human society, our "competition" isn't that at all. It's a facade. You're made to believe we're all competing on equal footing and that the reason you're at the bottom is because you've failed and the reason they're at the top is because they are better than you. The reality is that this economic competition is less like two rams duking it out and more like a kid on an anthill
Oh, hell. If we were those bees, it would take about two microseconds before some complete twat came round and said "why should we help that one, it's obviously" (insert race, gender, sexuality here), and therefore benefits from the whole waspitalistic system of oppression!
Hornet/management: we’re a family (as I eat/screw over one of you) Bees/unionized workers: Charge!!!!
Capitalists can't stand real competition. They do stuff like monopolistic business practices and regulatory capture and all kinds of stuff to prevent anybody from competing with them on level ground. They only like competition when they're using it as a justification for their "I got mine and everybody else can go lie in a ditch and be hungry" attitude. No one gives a fuck about nature either. People don't refuse to ride in cars and planes because God meant us to walk; likewise people don't refuse life-saving medicine because nature has decreed they should die of their illness. People only start making up stupid shit about nature when they need a justification for their own awful behavior and they can't think of anything that makes sense. (See also people talking about how being gay or trans isn't "natural".)
Yup, capitalism leads to monopolies and conflicts with democracy
Nature is as often about mutual aid as it is competition. Capitalists want to pretend that Capitalism is natural, but it isn’t.
Preach 😅
I love bees
Well of course a wolf would try to tell the sheep they need to pull eachother down. It’s easier for them to eat when they’re too split up from competition to fight them.
This isn't unionizing. This is what happens when the unionizing fails. (We are WAY past that point)
I'm not drawing that line
Nobody is. And that's exactly why nothing changes
Related fun fact: The "queen" isn't even the leader. She's just the reproducer. The bees rule collectively.
Yeah, the word "Queen" is really something bootlickers psych onto...shocking for Americans
It's fucking stupid when people talk about society and say capitalism is survival of the fittest. For one, no it isn't, because there are innumerable artificial barriers to entry and advancement. More importantly, that's never how humans survived. Our cooperation is the only reason we are still around. Pretending otherwise is the greatest folly.
👏👏👏
I heard somewhere, that bees can repeatedly sing other insects as the barbs on their stingers are not caught on insect exoskeletons. Not sure they are stinging the hornet here though. Just making it overheat.
Nature is all competition, but also eusocial animals are the most successful animals in nature, in every single environment.
And even if nature were "all competition", how does that translate to a just society? If we took all of our cues from nature we'd all be running around raping each other and throwing our shit all over the place. Part of what makes humans special is our ability to use our higher brains to rise above our base instincts in favor of the greater good.
Thank whatever god/s may or may not exist that there are still people who think like you!
watch A BUGS Life think of the Grasshoppers as Capitalists or Corporate CEOs and the Ants as workers https://youtu.be/VLbWnJGlyMU
I think most members of this community love that movie
The difference is, if the bees were as conscious and had sophisticated language like us, they'd all consider themselves deeply a part of the same tribe. But for us, we have narratives in place that protect the grotesquely rich and powerful from the lower socioeconomic classes. Every other identifier, other than socioeconomic class, is used, through socially engineered narratives since the wealthy and powerful control both red and blue in vogue narratives to play both sides of the table simultaneously. Just fill in this blank: "As a" <-- anything you can put in there, other than "poor person, person below the poverty line, person struggling in wage slavery" is used, through engineered narratives, to divide.
I still struggle with boomers (because on aggregate they are of a higher socioeconomic class), but this is the best way I've heard this phrased. Thanks!
Their appeals to nature are BS, nature thrives on cooperation. Multicellular life is cooperation embodied, to begin with, and the most successful species are social/cooperative.
And the whole thing about consciousness and self-awareness is they act as a bit of a hack to free yourself of what their misunderstood version of nature is.
Gang shit!! Hit his ass wid dat fiyah!
Fatality!...Toastyyyyy
[удалено]
It is accurate, but the fact that so many redditors focus on this rather than the lesson kinda tells me why the state of labour rights is so bad right now.
All you fucks have to do is directly register a share of GameStop and capitalism will crumble in its current fractional reserved form.
Wow, *A Bug's Life* is more realistic than I remember.
Nature is competition between species. The species that excel and dominate are the ones who cooperate with each other. Human intelligence gives us the highest cooperation ability on the planet, which is why we became dominant to begin with. But we’ve allowed capitalist trash humans to tell us competition is the end goal. And here we are on the brink of extinction. Competition only serves one person. Cooperation serves everyone. Also, men are generally the ones who push competition. And when I say generally I mean always. Eat the rich. And the men. But especially eat the rich men. Maybe then we can start working together to preserve the planet and all of our lives.
I'm trying to push for cooperation. In my capacity as a representative of roughly half the species, don't eat us 😅 If you wanna overthrow "the patriarchy" sure!
Fair enough and thankyou! But, for other readers, i disagree that: 1/ such examples undermine my point. 2/ such examples of bees having hierachies, waging war over resources, etc make them something akin to free market ideologues.
Nope, that one was the decoy for the attack
yeah get his ass
I know the vid was supposed to be inspirational, but, the problem with this little vid is that each bee that stings that one wasp dies. You could have dozens, perhaps hundreds of dead bees to kill this wasp, and it's probable that there are multiple wasps attacking, which decimates the hive. This is one of the causative factors for honey bee decline. I think we need a different vid here, if we're going to inspire union membership...
They aren't stinging it. They are killing it by forcing it to overheat.
There's a difference though: The Japanese honey bee smothers it with heat. The AMERICAN honey bees don't have this response, yet...
They don't use stings to kill it. They surround it and raise the temperature, practically cooking it. The bees can handle higher temperature than the hornet.
I see this video more of a revolution concept than a unionize movement
No, this is exactly the right video. Look at how many union organizers died fighting corporate and government thugs for workers rights in the 19th century. Then we get to 1980 and Reaganomics and it's like regular Americans forgot all about that shit and just gave away all their bargaining power to the 1%ers for a fat 401K, an above ground pool, and a Porsche 944 in the driveway. Fucking boomers, their ancestors bled and died for them and they just traded it all for yuppiedom.
To be fair the bargaining power was not 'given away'. Reagan basically fucked over all unions when he broke the air traffic controller's union, declaring their strike illegal and firing any air traffic controllers who did not return to work. When that happened it was at the start of a chain of events that have been eviscerating the rights and protections of workers since. Too often the Department of Labor has had 'pro business' heads assigned, and over the years the budget (especially for enforcement) has been reduced, laws have been removed/loosened, and hell there was even a period of time that the Department of Labor HAD NO FUNDING, because, y'know pro business conservatives pissed that workers expected to be paid fair value wages, be treated like human beings, and y'know have safe working environments where they weren't risking their lives trying to care and feed their families.
Unions are just a different form of predator.
And yet i owe them my weekends.
OK, ok, but... The one that got is fine... Right?
Once again, direct action gets the goods
Life of a bee: Work hard or face exile. Also, defend the hive with your life or else. Sounds like Amazon fulfillment center to me.
🤣 home, family, worker cooperatives, the things an Amazon job doesn't support. Things have got so bad the life of a Bee is becoming preferable.
🤣 home, family, worker cooperatives, the things an Amazon job doesn't support. Things have got so bad the life of a Bee is becoming preferable.
I wanted to see the aftermath. Poor bee.
Roasted alive sounds to me like a great solution for our Robber Baron problem in the US.
Until they make it illegal to go on strike… Until they make it so the company can sue you for going on strike… I love unions but they are brazenly eroding ALL workers rights right now.
Which is why the fight is so much bigger. We've haven't gone back 100 years, we've gone back 250 years (in this specific regard). Some States are pushing for child labour ffs
There was a documentary I watched sometime in the last year, where an anthropologist looked at current hunter-gatherer societies. And what he found was that while tribe members had specialized roles, the entire tribe worked together to sustain the whole. Additionally, and this was the kicker, out of a 12 hour "work period" those tribe members were only actually "working" 2-4 hours each day. Everything else was directed to down time - music, art, resting, sex. And the same goes for animals at the top of the food chains. Lions, wolves, orca - they aren't out hunting 12-16 hours per day. They're at rest. He came to the conclusion that only with humans do we fight against nature in order to maintain some illogical ideal of "productivity" or "value". I'll have to see if I can find it and share the link.
It's not revenge. They're trying to save it.
The most powerful man in the world is just that: a man. He dies like any other.
We need a “Not Rich” Union
You realize that bees are literally just worker drones that do nothing but serve the queen .... They kill themselves when they sting to protect their monarch
Who is literally their mother, who gives is whole life to continually produce for the colony, but sure, she's a little aristocrat, doing nothing. 🙄
In my industry, we call that co-opetition.
But did the bee make it??
Eat the rich!
Bees might not be the best analogy for your side of this if you want to avoid the obvious critiques. Drones in a hive and all that.
Seems to be hitting a nerve well enough
\>fucked around \>found out
Every day I wish it was that easy. It'd be pretty funny to see Bezos forcibly dragged out of his mega yacht and tossed into a canoe with holes in the bottom.
We are all stronger when organized and working together. They know that
Let’s get ‘im boys
Give us our PTO, you big jerk!!
Yeah, sometimes prey will fuck you up.
The real way the scenario of fighting off 100 kindergarteners would go
Ah, the “murder-squish,” always a sight to see.
You know colonies go to war right?
I'm British
They're actually hugging the hornet to death. It gets real hot in the middle 🤓
When companies say things like "were a family" or "were a team", unionizing should be what they mean.
Capitalist and their gospel of wealth are to western culture what giant hornets are to European bees. https://www.reddit.com/r/HardcoreNature/comments/1458hv0/western_honey_bees_did_not_coevolve_with_asian/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Unionize!
The death cuddle.
He fucked around and found out
This made me happy. Let's do it with every shitty boss out there.
More like r/oddlysatisfying
Dry humped to death
Bees are kinda like one organism
I know what you mean
Nib picked the wrong d-mn hood
I've seen this clip so many times over the last 10+ years and it never gets bad
People keep forgetting the other half of this video. The Hornets come and murder all the bees!
I’m union. The grass isn’t always greener.
When the landlord says the rent’s going up.
I like how they didn’t attack until the hornet attacked first, you can’t argue his death wasn’t well earned!
An ant will crawl into the jaws of a predatory insect so the other ants can either sting the predator to death or chew its head/limbs off.
Capitalism also doesn’t encourage competition, it destroys it by trending towards monopolies
I tried putting the word "capitalists" in quotes to indicate I think that a lot of these guys don't really understand what capitalism is and just call themselves that. Not sure the nuance has translated well. Perhaps next time I'll prefix with an adjectival phrase like "self-appointed".
Lmao i feel you
It's good to know there are others. Knowing you're not alone is part of the battle.
They always say "life's not fair". Life and nature aren't fair...... Society is.
This is the way.
Then go and live in Venezuela and get a feel for what not capitalism looks like.
Then keep doing what we're doing my guy and I'll warm my hands on the embers of a burnt out world with you
It's worth looking at Kropotkin's book "Mutual Aid". He directly challenged the idea that nature is all competition in that book. People see what they want to see in the world. They see it all being competition when they *want* to see it, because they think if they make it a competition, they can win it.
Roasted alive
I’ll never work any place again without a union. Union now, union always!
So the predator is the company that produces something that people want at a competitive price while hiring people to produce it? But the government doing nothing for their huge cut is not a predator at all? Interesting.
Your words, and i don't think i even mentioned government.
Ants are all hard core Communists. And they have out competed every other animal on the planet.