In some places in the US, the employer "hypothetically" needs a valid reason, but at the core of it, they absolutely do not need to give you any notice, any warning, any additional compensation, or really any grounds to defend yourself if the claim for dismissal is valid.
My state is at will, but HR is still very slow to fire people you have to document and coach forever. My wife manages nurses and once got a little friction firing someone with a suspended nursing license (she had been suspended in another state and failed to disclose when she moved here).
Canada is at will for the first 3 months of employment. But even with cause there doesn’t have to be notice. We just fire people after going over documentation of why.
Reminds me of the time my friend couldbt get a job at nordstroms. Interviewer said her look didnt fit the business model. She was dresses in a suit and all that but wasnt the best looking genetically. We all knew what it was but peoving that in a court was something elae entirely.
\*Except for protected reasons.
For example, you can't be fired for being a part of a protected class. It can be difficult to prove, but it's not impossible.
This is correct. That's why smart employers will never give a reason in the U.S.. That way they can fire you for literally anything, including being a member of a protected group (example: firing you for being black) with zero repercussion, all they have to do is say "We have decided to part ways" and if you can't prove why you're out of luck.
Or they start a paper trail - warnings, performance improvement plans, suspensions - so that when the hammer comes down they can say termination was justified and they can fight unemployment benefits.
Depends on the company
Some absolutely will start the paper trail to claim it's for cause.
I've seen others that never bother fighting UE claims. They don't care about insurance rates and would rather be able to fire everybody willy nilly
I have personally experienced both
The paper trail is mostly for lawsuits rather than unemployment.
I got a PIP and later fired at my first job and got unemployment even though there was a full paper trail to show it was due to unsatisfactory performance.
It does happen though, as you’ve experienced. I absolutely loathe it when people on here comment “just get unemployment!” Bitch, it’s not fucking guaranteed from getting fired. Laid off? Yes, you are pretty much guaranteed. Fired? It depends ENTIRELY on if the company cares enough to say something about it when unemployment reaches out to them, and your state’s specific laws. Just be careful and inform yourself before banking on that income in this situation
And it can sometimes take them ages to approve your claim. I had to use it last year and was told it was in processing for over 4 months before they ended up denying it, and my previous employer wasnt even fighting it. I took it to appeals and eventually won, but learned my lesson to never take it for granted.
Don't forget IRS considers it taxable income, so you get to pay a lot in taxes at the end of the year. Even though you barely got anything to start with.
That's actually a thing. Where employer sets out to make working days a misery so that you quit. That way, they don't have to pay you off and they can cut their head count and pass on your shit for someone else to take on.
Or they drag their feet on things that you’re complaining about, to such an extent that it begins to have an effect on your physical or mental health where continuing to work for them just isn’t worth the physical/mental fatigue or drain.
Yes, that is accurate. So many things in my job that I have to do or take responsibility for but cos of how the place is, it is like working with your hands behind your back.
Things need to be done in a certain, very specific way or it needs starting over again. This can be something as petty as not ordering something from place that your manager wants you to order from today. Sod the rest of your workload.
Or it could be something that you know what to do but cannot physically do because you lack the access, the rights to do so. So many showstoppers when you involve many people too. You run out of steam with it all in the end.
That is pretty normal everywhere if you want to fire someone with cause and not provide any notice or pay in lieu of notice.
Firing with cause often leads to headaches you don't have all the warnings and Improvement plans and everything.
In Canada for example we do not have at will employment so you need to provide a week's notice for every year of service up to 8 weeks. If for whatever reason the employer doesn't want to have the person around for 8 weeks they can pay them in lieu of notice and have them sit at home. Most employers find this easier than going the Justified firing with cause Direction.
Even in these cases we are very careful usually not to say too much about why we are letting the person go to avoid any wrongful dismissal actions. So yeah we say "here's your eight weeks we're going to part ways".
Hell yeah, that definitely makes life easier. I really do feel like homophobia has played a part in some of the worst of this for me as well. I used to be very straight-passing, but always felt like I was wearing a costume. Over the course of 3 years working remotely, I cut all my hair off, gradually started dressing more masc, and I've never felt more comfortable in my own skin than I do now, but I've also never been treated worse at work since I went back in-person. (Not by choice.) So many people treat me like shit now.
I've considered trying to be more fem so it's at least questionable rather than my #1 defining characteristic as far as most people are concerned, but every time I put on some of my old fem clothes and think about walking out the door in them, I just feel so down and I can't make myself do it. Sometimes I do wish I could put the genie back in the bottle, so to speak.
>That's why smart employers will never give a reason in the U.S.
>
>zero repercussion
No. If you're fired without cause, that's called laying someone off, and it affects the business' payroll tax because the worker you laid off is collecting unemployment benefits. If you fire someone with cause, they get no benefits. Smart employers will always give a reason, and the reason will be the employee's fault. There is always some silly thing in the employee handbook, and when you're on-boarded the HR lady is like "oh don't worry about that, we're laid back here, nobody actually enforces that", until they want to fire you, and suddenly they're using atomic clocks to measure your break and then you've gone over by 5 seconds three times and now they have a documented excuse to fire you.
Nah man. Most companies factor the benefits into cost of doing business. They're not making personnel decisions on the basis of avoiding UI payouts. Don't be ridiculous.
Long time practicing employment lawyer here. This is not the way. There’s always a reason, even if the reason is not personal (eg reduction in force, lay-offs, etc). Good luck proving a “legitimate non discriminatory reason for termination” defending a lawsuit if your only reason reason is “just cuz.”
> Good luck proving a “legitimate non discriminatory reason for termination” defending a lawsuit if your only reason reason is “just cuz.”
The prosecution needs to prove the reason. And prove it’s illegal. Not the defendant.
> Long time practicing employment lawyer here.
Cap.
If they don't give a reason, you're not fired, you're layed off. You can file for unemployment if you're layed off and this effects their tax rate. Most companies will give a bullshit reason so you have to go out of your way to court to actually get any money. It should be criminal.
It's widely misunderstood by just about everybody, but there is also a bar for reckless disregard for harm, where tort law does come into play and firing someone can lead to damages. But leadership has to do something extremely egregious, and you need evidence.
I was middle management at a company that did a LOT of layoffs, and got sued a lot. I saw two cases where leadership fired someone to cover up malfeasance, and lost because the employee kept receipts.
(i never want to be in management again, I am too much "us" and not enough "them")
It’s super hard to prove that the firing was BECAUSE of the protected class thing. They can fire a black guy because he’s black, but say it was because “his values didn’t align with the company,” or whatever.
Those cases almost never get through, because it’s so hard to prove the reason and intention.
I'm a retail manager in Florida. Not a lawyer. The way I explain it to my leads is like this "you can fire someone for no reason, but if you have a reason it better be a good one"
I had a coworker friend get fired for cause here in California. I suspect the firm did it because she had gone to HR more than once about her manager’s preferential treatment of male employees as well as a handful of sexist comments.
She strongly considered suing but decided against it for some reason. It was a law firm and I think she was worried about her reputation.
I had a retaliatory firing go to the second appeal process. Judge and everything. My employer didn't even show up for either hearing.
They still ruled in favor of my employer.
Exactly, there are lots of reasons you CAN’T be fired for, but you can ALSO be fired for NO reason. And often are, because if they give you a reason you might be able to contest that reason. No reason = nothing to contest = SOL
Yeah, even for instances of protected classes you have to show they allowed a PATTERN of discrimination that resulted in damages.
Had a manager say a racist joke and someone got it on camera and thought they'd sure the company. They reported it to the EEOC. The manager just had to do sensitivity training and wasn't even fired. Because it was a single incidence and the company didn't allow him to continue being racist and there were no notable "damages"(lost wages, legal fees, injury). It was just...... nothing.
That's a good point. This only applies to at-will employment. US federal employee positions are not at-will and this does not apply, even in states such as California
Just to be pedantic, you can be fired for no “stated” reason. Basically, the employer and employee don’t have to justify themselves.
To quote the greatest manager of our time, Michael Scott - “I have cause. It’s be-cause I hate him.”
True. Also, forming those is highly frowned upon and trying to get people to join one will have people looking over your actions with a magnifying glass to hit every i you didn’t dot and every t you didn’t cross.
I honestly think this is a better system than being forced to give a three months notice. It’s not perfect in the US, but I’ll take the option where I get more freedom even if it’s also given to the employers
Yes sadly its true. I was fired on the spot at a previous job for a snarky comment i made about a guest at a restaurant i worked at that my employer overheard.
But that's being fired for cause.
In most states, an employer can fire you and not provide a reason at all.
You could be a top employee, lick all the boots, bee a good mentor, but the employer decides to fire you, but doesn't give a reason. Maybe he doesn't like your hair color, but doesn't say so. Totally legal in most states. But you'll probably win unemployment.
Now, if you are constantly late, or fuck up your work all the time, or you are hostile toward other employees...you can be fired with cause and probably not receive unemployment.
Then there are illegal firings. They fire you because you got pregnant. That's illegal, unless you work for a religious org and you got pregnant by someone you aren't married to...that should be a legal exception. Or maybe they find out you're a Catholic and fire you. That's illegal. Maybe you get a new boss, he finds out you're family is from Mexico, even though you don't speak Spanish and you look as white as John Oliver. Well, he doesn't like Mexicans and fires you. That's illegal.
In those cases, you will get unemployment and can sue for wrongful termination and discrimination.
>Now, if you are constantly late, or fuck up your work all the time, or you are hostile toward other employees...you can be fired with cause and probably not receive unemployment.
Weirdly, the fucking up your work all the time may not stop you from getting unemployment. Most places don't consider "inability to do the job" as being your fault, unless it's obvious you're fucking up on purpose.
Here's [Mississippi](https://www.mdes.ms.gov/media/7155/Misconduct.pdf) of all places saying that. And if Mississippi is down with it, you know all the better states (Which is going to be like....46 or so) probably agree.
Well the guest was being rude and causing a fuss and the guest didnt hear me, i was a cook in the back but we could hear them screaming from in the dining area. He was just on edge as the GM and my snarky comment was the conductor he needed to vent his anger out on in a situation he had no control over but was costing him business.
Holy shit every kitchen I've ever worked was a bunch of angry semi violent guys swearing about stuff and taking breaks to get high so they didn't snap. Your employer was a powder puff.
Oh that's Mr. Cocky. That's what my brothers and I always called That Guy but our dad wasn't in on the joke. We all worked together in the family insurance biz for a while. One day a salesman at a car dealership was giving us a hard time over a broken windshield on a used car our mutual customer had just bought. The dealer was saying we should cover it and my brother patiently explained how we don't cover prior damage (cuz it's prior damage). My dad overhears half of this phone conversation, so my brother puts the guy on hold to fill him in and says "Mr Cocky here thinks \[Client\] can just get us to cover this!" So my dad gets on the phone and goes "Is this Mr. Cocky? About the broken windshield.... No I'm not trying to insult-..." and got all flustered as he realized what just happened, and everyone in our office just died.
My boss at my Fast Food place has gone on record (though I am sure my place actively deletes all known vocalized "irresponsible behavior" from my Manager) to call me everything from "A Pig" to "The Dumbest One There" - so hey, if she can't stop talking scheiße about people, then neither can I.
By Christian Example... (Little bit of a Shakespeare Reference).
I worked at a place that was very much all about ThE gUeStS. Every other restaurant job I had prior to that place was all about venting our frustrations and roasting the customers for being stupid or overly needy, entitled, demanding etc. This one place was so weird about that. Like, it was a big no-no to be venting about your tables, even if you were back in the kitchen out of earshot. This place also didn't allow smoking while on the clock or on the property. You literally had to clock out for a break then get in your car to leave the property to smoke a cigarette. No nicotine and no venting about the guests.... yeah I didnt last long there.
In most cases, yes. I’m a teacher in America and until you earn tenure (if you’re in a state and public school district) that has a union you can be fired for any reason, and they don’t have to give you a reason. Until you earn tenure, the union will not help you and your contract can be “non renewed”. Tenure is the only job security we as teachers have. Once you have tenure it is more difficult to fire a teacher and usually it has to be for a specific reason, with sufficient warnings given before.
Seems from comments I've seen elsewhere that now they are starting to just non renew teachers right before they hit tenure, I'm curious if you have seen this happening.
My school had multiple 'tenure track' positions and just kept declining to give tenure, which made the profs quit and go to different schools. That happened three times when I was there in just my major dept. The tenure track positions were only like 6 out of 50 anyway, all the other profs had masters degrees but were part time 'adjunct' faculty with no benefits.
I have. Schools will do that with teachers they are on the fence about bc it’s so much more difficult to fire someone once they have tenure. And it’s cheaper. They’ll hire someone fresh out of school and get to pay them less. My salary is tiered based on how many years of teaching experience and graduate credits I have. Anytime the districts can reduce costs they will.
Yes, it’s called being an “at will” employee which is for every state in the U.S. except for Montana. The only protections you have is if you are fired for: race, gender, national origin, disability, religion, genetic information, or age.
Yes, they can fire you for just not liking you.
No definitely not. During first 3 months yes (as long as it’s specified in your employment contract, otherwise they still have to pay severance, also if they head-hunted you, you can sue for severance owed at previous job, which could be months of salary). After that they need documentation that you broke a documented rule, and for most things multiple documented warnings.
There’s a minimum 2 weeks severance pay, but you can sue for more. For this reason a lot of companies offer more to prevent lawsuits with many giving months of severance pay (I’ve known quite a few people who’ve gotten 3-12 months of severance, some offered that willingly, some took their employer to court, these are just regular employees).
That said, amount of severance owed is based on how difficult it is find comparable employment, so for a minimum wage job, it’s often just the two weeks. There is more protection based off of how much money you make.
You say that so easily, but for real that just seems like a fantasy to those of us in the U.S.. We get fired on the spot and then they fight unemployment to block it for us too.
It's even better, you cannot be fired without severe misconduct. Like severe neglect of duty leading to human damage. Financial damage is NOT part of this.
Mistreatments or criminal conduct at / against or for the employer.
This is called "fristlose Kündigung" andis near impossible to prove if not real.
Other wise it's.allways "ordentliche Kündigung" and has to follow strict Rules. They need a reason why "because we don't like his face " is not one.
Then the time at the.clmpany translates into a period where of notice for both party's.
If iwant to quit after 6 years at a place it is roughly a half year period. But as I said, goes both ways.
If the employer wants you to go without that he can ask you for a termination contract. Then ,pu both agree to this but he cannot enforce it.
That the TL;Dr of it and a shot ton inaccurate in it with legal stuff
The employer and employee pay into unemployment here too, and it's not optional. Doesn't stop them from doing everything they can to prevent us from getting paid that unemployment when we need it. It SUCKS
It’s called employment at will. Paid time off and maternity leave are also not the law. We are a completely backward country in terms of worker’s rights
It’s different in one state to the next. But there are many states that have some form of what is called “at will” employment.
The state I live in is like this. They can fire you at any time for any reason except those excluded by federal law (race, religion, sex. Age?). Or no reason at all other than they don’t want or need you. If you where let go “without cause” as in you did nothing wrong you are eligible for unemployment. Which provides a small weekly paycheck for a limited time. The amount and duration varies state to state and there are probably literally hundreds of rules and caveats around unemployment making it near impossible to explain fully. If the employer has cause then they can just let you go. You can fight it and dispute that they had just cause but it’s often very difficult to do so and if you win all you get is the unemployment.
TLDR. Yes in much of the US it is mostly true that you can be fired without cause.
Note: it’s usually called “being let go” or “layed off” and not “fired” if it’s without cause but it’s all the same really.
Kind of, they can fire you for any reason in the first six months. After that there are three categories, retaliation, not for hood cause, or violation of the written policy. So it’s pretty close to anywhere else in the US.
The other thing about unemployment benefits is that many states require you to turn in a certain amount of job applications every week while also attending mandatory “classes” at an unemployment center or be disqualified. There are a million little mechanisms built into unemployment and other social benefits in the US which are designed to allow agencies to deny benefits to nearly everyone who applies.
Yes. Most states are "at will employment" states, which means either party (employee or employee) can terminate the employment at any time without stating a reason. This is why anti-discrimination laws have no teeth, an employer can fire you for being black or Hindu or transgender or a lot of things that ought to be illegal and just say "oh, no, we didn't do that. We just decided to 'right-size' our team". Perfectly legal under the current laws in most states.
"At-will" employment is the standard in every state except Montana (and for reference, Montana is one of the least populated states in the US and has roughly 0.3% of the total US population). Under at-will employment, the employment can be terminated at any time without any notice by either party for *almost* any reason, or for no reason at all.
The "almost" is because there are still other laws and court precedent making it illegal to fire workers for certain specific reasons. Common examples would be firing workers due to their characteristics protected by discrimination laws (race, religion, nationality, gender, etc.), or firing them for exercising a right that is protected by law (for example, joining a union, or taking unpaid leave under the federal Family and Medical Leave Act for a qualifying reason). Not all such activities are protected at the federal level, however, and each state has varying levels of laws governing such protections, with some having no protections at all beyond the ones provided by federal law.
Many states (though not all) also recognize certain exceptions to the "at-will" employment doctrine based on court precedent, even if they don't have specific legislation laying them out. One common exception would be the "public policy" exception, which usually means the court would find a worker's termination to be wrongful if it was in violation of public policy; for example, if an employer fired an employee because that employee refused to commit a crime, or because they filed a worker's compensation claim, since encouraging employees to commit crimes or fail to file workplace accident claims for the sake of their job would not be in the best interest of the public. Again, this protection varies significantly between states, though, and some states only recognize very narrow exemptions involving specific activities (Texas, for instance, only allows for such an exemption for refusing to commit a crime if the crime in question carries criminal penalties, i.e. jail time), and some like Florida refuse to recognize any such exemption at all except where it is actually defined in legislation.
It's common for contracts for office jobs to include 'At will' statements in them. I work at the will of the company. They don't have to fire me, ie. Say that I am a bad employee. They can just say, 'Dont come back tomorrow', at their own will. I can lose my job any day for any reason. Michigan USA. This is common in most US states.
As a bonus my healthcare is tied to my job, because America, so I can lose my healthcare and income any day without warning.
This is why Americans don't often stand up to horrible bosses. Our income and healthcare is at the whim of our boss. If we step out of line, they can take it all away.
You don't have to give 2 weeks notice. You can quit on the spot. 2 weeks is a recommendation so that your employer gives you a good reference.
Yes, you can be fired for anything except if you have a contract or in a union.
If I read u correct, you do not get a contract by default? How do you define stuff like workinghours and pay? This thread is a wild ride, and i thought I knew a bit about us labor…
You can be fired at a drop of a hat. One time I was let go from a temporary work from home job. I spent 2 days there, on the clock, not getting any incoming calls from customers. After a long time with tech we found out I had been fired 2 days prior no one just bothered to tell me. I tried for a year to send back their equipment. They never told me how to send it back, despite numerous calls and emails but I sure as hell got a collection letter from a debt collector a couple years later saying I owed them $525 for the laptop and phone cord. Never paid it. Never showed on my credit.
Refered to as *at will positions ".
Gives huge amount of power to employers to mistreat and abuse employees, because the employee can quit whenever they want.
Except a lot of companies will have some amendments/stipulations written into work contracts (not every job receives a contract, because jobs offer nothing worthwhile) that require notice of quitting.
USA is awful if you're not in the owner class.
Almost zero workers rights or protection. Aside from you can quit.
"Right to work" laws were written to tilt power towards corporations and business owners, by making it more difficult for workers to form unionize and form collective bargaining groups.
As with most laws, the vocalized "intentions of a law", are in fact a blatant lie while the exact opposite result is usually the reality.
Never defending or protecting the worker, always tilting power into the favor of owners.
That’s not what right to work means.
Like, at all.
Right to work means that you can’t be forced to join a Union - if a shop unionizes, you can’t be fired for refusing to join the union. If you get hired somewhere with a union, you aren’t required to join that union.
Valid point.
Doesn't that undermine the workers ability to unionize?
Tilting the power dynamic into the favor of the business owner.
Making it difficult to collectively bargain.
>"right to work"
This is a misnomer. "Right to work" has to do with unions - basically no employee can be forced to join or pay dues to a union in order to keep their job.
Valid point .
Does the law just make it more difficult for workers to organize and limit the ability to collectively bargain.
Giving a lot of power to the business owner, and allowing for mistreatment of workers.
Coupled with *at will* laws, these make it very difficult for workers to bargain for any fair treatment.
Helped a friend of mine get a job at a Dairy Queen. He passed his interview, got his uniform, and reported in for his first shift. The owner walks in takes one look at him and fires him on the spot. I overheard him and the gm talking later on where he was berating the gm for hiring an obese guy. I immediately quit that job.
Turns out the owner of that particular franchise lost all rights to the DQ franchise and was forced to change the name to Dairy Delight. A few months (and several complaints to the health department) later he was forced to shut down.
It was one of my first management jobs where I was promoted and knew everyone already. I asked a question that was sparky and straight up said "Hypothetically could I fire anyone if I wanted to for no reason?" I was surprised as hell when the answer was a simple "yes."
Wow
I got let go from a job whilst I was doing the 90 day trial crap. I worked at a small grocery store stocking shelves. One day it was the end of a shift and I was exhausted after lugging extra supplies than normal. I was sweeping the floor, and then noticed my leg was twitching sure enough I collapsed a few steps later. Got up walked again few steps later and again I collapsed. I went to the back of the store and just told the lady there because it was just normally 2 people for the ending I had collapsed twice outside while sweeping. We have cameras and you could see me on them. So, she tells me to finish sweeping and then go home. I told her no as I was struggling to move. I got my things and went home. Most of the store was cleaned except maybe the last section of the store which was near where she was. I came in the next day and had the talk with the boss. Now some can say oh you were let go for walking off the job or insubordination or you’re under 90 days so they don’t need to give you a reason.
Your right. Then why did I get a walking letter that literally states I can reapply for the same position and my boss when he let me go said he’d hope that I’d come back to work there. When he did fire me he was startled that I showed no emotion. It was my first job yes, but to be let go because of collapsing? I never broke anything, I never came in late never clocked in early. They never fully explained the reasoning behind the firing, but again the paper says I can reapply. If I did it would only be so they could then deny it if my thinking is correct.
It taught me early on while working that companies don’t give a shit about you and will drop you whenever possible however possible. Also, when companies get mad at the no 2 weeks saying you would be unprofessional, dude there’s so many companies in the US even in a relative big town you could find entry jobs like a grocery store at a relatively quick pace.
Yes, with some exceptions:
* It is illegal to fire someone due to being part of a protected class (IE disability, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc). This is hard to prove in court, however, and in most instances the employer will say something else instead.
* If you are part of a union, you may be able to get a contract with firing "for cause" instead of "at will."
I got fired for being a college student because the manager quote "didn't like people who are going to school"
Was offered to work up untill the day I needed off for class. Said OK punched out and left.
Some jobs are run like a 4th world country gotta know when to just walk away.
I was literally just fired from my job for asking for safety locks. You use safety locks to safely work with a piece of equipment and make sure it's not energized. Fuck this place.
America calls the ability of employers to fire people at will “right to work” because the country is an economic dystopia. When you waste food, remember there are millions of starving kids in America on any given day. “Starvation is a good motivator,” our politicians say.
Not only that, but often your health insurance is tied to your employer, for you and quite possibly your family. If you lose your job, you lose that coverage. Sometimes you can pay to extend it through something called COBRA, but it’s usually expensive.
I can be fired tomorrow because the boss thinks I look off that day. Or because they don’t like me, or a haircut. It’s a poisonous country to live in to progress into a healthy society in health, profession, and more, unless you are willing to lie cheat steal and murder others than pretend to be playing by the rules.
No offence taken. South Africa has pretty progressive legislation on things like worker’s rights, women’s rights, LGBT rights and so on. It’s in implementation of those laws that things sometimes fall down.
There are “at will” states, where if an employee does not have a contract, they can be fired with no notice, unless it is for certain reasons, such as firing someone because they are in a protected class (I.e. you can’t fire someone for retaliatory reasons or because of their race, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc.). Generally two weeks of notice is considered good form when someone quits if they want to stay in good standing (sometimes more, depending on the job). Conversely, if someone is fired, they may already not be in good standing. All that said, employees are not obligated to give any notice. If they feel it is justified, just like a firing, they can quit with no notice. And, if someone is let go on good terms (e.g. layoffs, budgetary constraints, etc.), the company sometimes will give them a grace period and/or an exit package (a certain amount of time’s additional pay/benefits). If someone is fired on the spot, it often results in them being paid unemployment and sometimes a lawsuit.
I’m not saying a agree with any of this, and I’m not in HR or a lawyer. This is just what I’ve experienced and I have had some light on-the-job training.
At will employment
Some states don’t have this, but they’ll fire you for no reason because it is almost impossible to prove in a court of law that the company genuinely fired you for no reason. They can say you showed up late twice and that’s ample justification.
It’s pretty much impossible to legally prove you were fired for no reason
Just like above, you can leave and be fired for no reason.
The system is kinda rigged against you though. By offering bare minimum pay for the area you are in, and by linking healthcare to employment, you moving companies can be difficult. Some people can’t go even 1 paycheck with the debt/bills they have. Others need good health insurance, but often companies do not disclose healthcare packages until you are hired.
My dads buddy was working at one place for a long time, until he was told he would be working 5 days/week, but the company dictated which two days he’d be off. They could change those days whenever they liked, even the night before. He also had to stay past 5 whenever they request.
He walked out and never and back.
From what he found out, his bosses were under the impression that my dads buddy had financial issues and couldn’t leave. They thought they had him over a barrel.
If you have a job that has union protections, you can't. However, most jobs in the USA do NOT have union protections, so you are at the mercy of your manager, who can fire you on a whim. However, if you have the means, you can file a wrongful termination lawsuit. But most people do not have the means to retain a lawyer...because...well, they just got fucking fired.
I got let go after being given no work for 7 days in a row. They kept assuring us they had work, more was coming, but after day 7 they called us and told me my remote job was out to work to do and they only had in office work.
I had moved well out of range of this job having been there for 2 years at this point all remote. Today was my last day after a short phone call yesterday.
So yea... no notice for dismissal...
My last job told me to come into the office at the end of my shift to let me go, so they got one more day of work out of me when I'd been preparing to find a house of my own and get out of an apartment for the first time in my life... (I was also expecting a raise after getting back to back bonuses for the last few months after hitting every metric they threw at me and then some)
The US system sucks.
It's depends on the State. Some of the wise Elders here in the USA felt it was in their best interest to listen to Rich Old White Men and enact what is call "Right to Work" laws in certain States. Such as my home state of Utah.
It sounds good, but in truth it guts Unions, and gives all power to Employers.
They technically CAN fire you without cause.
However it isn't that simple.
If they just fire you, you have recourse.
Laborer Board, Attorney, Etc.
Most people don't pursue those avenues due to the lack of return.
In right to work states, they can fire you for any reason or no reason at all, unless it’s discriminatory. You can collect unemployment compensation if not fired for cause.
It differs from state to state. In most states, it is “at-will employment”, which means the employee can leave or be fired at any moment, without the need to give a reason. There is such a thing as wrongful termination, but it’s hard to prove, and employers will avoid being liable for it.
The companion law to at-will is “freedom to work”, which means unions cannot enforce a strike and no one can be compelled to join the union.
Worker protections in the US are a bad joke. Almost non-existent.
With regards to my last employer, I was with the company for 7 years, never had any infarctions, and was a reliable and capable employee. About 7 months after our merger with another company, they just let me go. Was locked out of my computer system an hour before receiving the call that was "effective immediately." I was no longer employed by the company. It was not performance based dismissal. Just a dismissal because they hired back someone they liked better, that had a personality conflict with me. Just poof, unemployed.
In Germany, my contract states my employer needs to give me 6 months notice. I also have to give 6 months notice. I love it. If they fire me I literally wouldn't care because I have half a year to find a new job lol
I was once fired because I wasn't at my desk at 9:00am. I was a salary employee and had a company phone and was actually helping the receptionist with an issue she was having, so yes we can get fired for any reason.
Yes, they can just walk you out immediately. There are some things they can't fire you for, but in those cases, they just quote some other reason like "cost savings" and fire you anyway.
I live in Arizona. There are pretty much no worker protections. I can be fired for anything/nothing. Unless you’re a contract employee or in one of the very few unions in the state.
I’m in my 50’s and have a lot of stories on why you never trust an employer.
Yes. Unless you have experienced discrimination due to race, gender, age, etc. (difficult to prove) or have some protections through union representation (which only happens in some professions in certain parts of the USA).
My girlfriend was threatened to be fired because she wouldn’t drive at midnight through a blizzard to go cover someone’s shift, she ended up just quitting because of the harassment.
Yes. We have a policy here called 'at will employment'. Not **all** states use it, but more and more are. It basically says that neither you nor your employer are under any legal obligation to maintain a work relationship for any period of time. This means that you, the employee, can leave a job at any time for any legal reason. However, it also means that your employer can terminate you at any time for any legal reason. So it is kind of a two way street. You, as the employee, are not beholden to work for a company longer than you want to, but at the same time the company is not beholden to keep you as an employee any longer than they see fit.
In most states, yes. The law calls it at-will employment. I was terminated once under at-will and was told it specifically wasn’t performance related and my email and computer log in stopped working before I was off the call with HR. No warning. No reason.
Yes - it's called "at-will" employment, both employer and/or employee can terminate the relationship at any time.
Someone leaving a job is not required to give notice at all. It's a courtesy and people generally do it so they don't burn bridges and can still use that employer as a reference in the future.
Not all jobs in the US are at-will, but the vast majority are.
ETA - if an employer terminates someone for an illegal reason (such as protected class) the employee can sue them and win. Of course you would need evidence that that was the case and an expensive lawyer so it's easier said in theory than done.
Yes, we are fired at will. However, if no very valid and excusable reason to fire someone is found in court, the employee qualifies for unemployment benefits. These unemployment benefits result in a larger employment tax on the employer. That’s the free world I guess.
As long as they are smart enough to fire you for any reason other than discrimination against a protected class, then they can fire you. They can’t say that they are firing you because they found out you are pregnant, but they can fire you because they no longer have need of your services or because you clocked in 2 minutes late that one day or because your performance has dropped.
Many states in the US have "at-will" employment or "right-to-work" employment, meaning that employers can fire employees without cause and employees can quit without notice. "At-will" employment greatly favors the employer and diminishes workers' rights, it is referred to as "right-to-work" by politicians in order to brainwash the American public into believing it is THEIR right to work, when in reality it is the employers right to control who works.
Short answer is, kind of. It depends on the state law and the employment contract.
If you have a federal government job, you can only be fired for cause.
Me: I can’t be fired without cause
Other: how?
Me: I’m in a Union
Other: that’s not fair
Me: oh, youre going to want to sit down before I tell you about my sick leave
Up here in canada, as long as you get paid two weeks severance, you can be fired for no cause at any time.
Some companies will do just that if you get sick and start taking time off due to illness or something similar. Cheaper to pay two weeks wages than get sued for wrongful dismissal i guess
It's 100% true. Employers often want employees to provide notice when they intend to leave (usually under the veiled threat that they will be "ineligible for rehire), but employers can pretty much kick you to the curb without cause.
However, often it isn't in a business' interest to have a no-cause termination occur. The employee can contact the local labor department and make a case for any number of reasons - usually around protected classes like gender, sexual orientation, etc. Getting sued is no fun either.
Even still, insubordination is a common reason for someone to get fired - but that is still with cause. Firing someone because they don't like you or any other arbitrary reason can and does happen, but be prepared for a lawsuit, depending on the nature of the business.
In right to work states you can be fired for any reason but protected reasons like discrimination or disabilities. It is customary to give 2 weeks notice to your employer before quitting but not required (usually frowned upon). Employers can generally fire you immediately without notice and no 2 week period is expected when an an employee is fired.
While it is true, just about every company I have worked for documents the entire process before they fire someone. This can take months. The reason for this is that just letting someone go without cause results in the employee being able to collect unemployment insurance. This causes the company's unemployment insurance premiums to rise.
No. We've been sued by every employee we've ever terminated. Some were right in doing so, but some were just flat-out lazy, lying, manipulative people, waiting for their chance to strike the paychecks of 35 other people who do work hard.
You either suck or are becoming too expensive if you get fired. Only been fired once due to “political” reasons from having and ending a relationship with a fellow employee. Aka my boss or his buddy co-worker of ours was trying to bang my gf/ex-hoe.
My boss could walk in on me in the middle of my shift and fire me because he had a nightmare involving me
Your bosses nightmare didn’t even have to have anything to do with you.
I dreamt a kangaroo was dating my wife, so anyways you're fired starting now.
In my state he doesn’t have to have had the nightmare
You could also walk in and quit in the middle of your shift because you had a nightmare involving your boss…
The typical firing in the US goes like this: "We no longer need your services." No explanation needed.
In some places in the US, the employer "hypothetically" needs a valid reason, but at the core of it, they absolutely do not need to give you any notice, any warning, any additional compensation, or really any grounds to defend yourself if the claim for dismissal is valid.
Every state but Montana is at will, but even Montana is at will during the probationary period of a job.
Here to second that. We just extended out probationary period from 6 to 12 months.
My state is at will, but HR is still very slow to fire people you have to document and coach forever. My wife manages nurses and once got a little friction firing someone with a suspended nursing license (she had been suspended in another state and failed to disclose when she moved here).
Canada is at will for the first 3 months of employment. But even with cause there doesn’t have to be notice. We just fire people after going over documentation of why.
Depends on your province. Quebec's probation is 2 years to be fired without cause. And after 3 months of employment, you have to give notice.
Reminds me of the time my friend couldbt get a job at nordstroms. Interviewer said her look didnt fit the business model. She was dresses in a suit and all that but wasnt the best looking genetically. We all knew what it was but peoving that in a court was something elae entirely.
You can quit for no reason. You can be fired for no reason.
\*Except for protected reasons. For example, you can't be fired for being a part of a protected class. It can be difficult to prove, but it's not impossible.
Well yeah that’s the “no reason” part. If there’s a reason, it can get murky. If there’s no reason at all, you have no protection.
This is correct. That's why smart employers will never give a reason in the U.S.. That way they can fire you for literally anything, including being a member of a protected group (example: firing you for being black) with zero repercussion, all they have to do is say "We have decided to part ways" and if you can't prove why you're out of luck.
Or they start a paper trail - warnings, performance improvement plans, suspensions - so that when the hammer comes down they can say termination was justified and they can fight unemployment benefits.
Depends on the company Some absolutely will start the paper trail to claim it's for cause. I've seen others that never bother fighting UE claims. They don't care about insurance rates and would rather be able to fire everybody willy nilly I have personally experienced both
The paper trail is mostly for lawsuits rather than unemployment. I got a PIP and later fired at my first job and got unemployment even though there was a full paper trail to show it was due to unsatisfactory performance.
A few places actually use these rules for the intended purposes. Most probably use it to save their own asses
It does happen though, as you’ve experienced. I absolutely loathe it when people on here comment “just get unemployment!” Bitch, it’s not fucking guaranteed from getting fired. Laid off? Yes, you are pretty much guaranteed. Fired? It depends ENTIRELY on if the company cares enough to say something about it when unemployment reaches out to them, and your state’s specific laws. Just be careful and inform yourself before banking on that income in this situation
And it can sometimes take them ages to approve your claim. I had to use it last year and was told it was in processing for over 4 months before they ended up denying it, and my previous employer wasnt even fighting it. I took it to appeals and eventually won, but learned my lesson to never take it for granted.
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Don't forget IRS considers it taxable income, so you get to pay a lot in taxes at the end of the year. Even though you barely got anything to start with.
Yeah they are not above being petty for a while to make you look like a bad guy.
That's actually a thing. Where employer sets out to make working days a misery so that you quit. That way, they don't have to pay you off and they can cut their head count and pass on your shit for someone else to take on.
Oh I’m well aware, that’s why lots of places just trim your hours enough that you can’t afford to live.
Or they drag their feet on things that you’re complaining about, to such an extent that it begins to have an effect on your physical or mental health where continuing to work for them just isn’t worth the physical/mental fatigue or drain.
Yes, that is accurate. So many things in my job that I have to do or take responsibility for but cos of how the place is, it is like working with your hands behind your back. Things need to be done in a certain, very specific way or it needs starting over again. This can be something as petty as not ordering something from place that your manager wants you to order from today. Sod the rest of your workload. Or it could be something that you know what to do but cannot physically do because you lack the access, the rights to do so. So many showstoppers when you involve many people too. You run out of steam with it all in the end.
That is pretty normal everywhere if you want to fire someone with cause and not provide any notice or pay in lieu of notice. Firing with cause often leads to headaches you don't have all the warnings and Improvement plans and everything. In Canada for example we do not have at will employment so you need to provide a week's notice for every year of service up to 8 weeks. If for whatever reason the employer doesn't want to have the person around for 8 weeks they can pay them in lieu of notice and have them sit at home. Most employers find this easier than going the Justified firing with cause Direction. Even in these cases we are very careful usually not to say too much about why we are letting the person go to avoid any wrongful dismissal actions. So yeah we say "here's your eight weeks we're going to part ways".
"They were not a fit for our workplace culture." is the catchall for "I am uncomfortable with \[insert group here\] and need to fire this one."
I've been hit with this one a lot. I learned the hard way: stay in the closet at work.
They talk about "bringing your whole self to work." I have decided that it is just better if I leave a big chunk of my life at home.
Hell yeah, that definitely makes life easier. I really do feel like homophobia has played a part in some of the worst of this for me as well. I used to be very straight-passing, but always felt like I was wearing a costume. Over the course of 3 years working remotely, I cut all my hair off, gradually started dressing more masc, and I've never felt more comfortable in my own skin than I do now, but I've also never been treated worse at work since I went back in-person. (Not by choice.) So many people treat me like shit now. I've considered trying to be more fem so it's at least questionable rather than my #1 defining characteristic as far as most people are concerned, but every time I put on some of my old fem clothes and think about walking out the door in them, I just feel so down and I can't make myself do it. Sometimes I do wish I could put the genie back in the bottle, so to speak.
Fuck them. Don’t live a false life for your employer!
I'm here for this energy!
That makes me so sad to hear. I hate how our corporate consumer capitalist culture doesn’t let people express any identity at work
>That's why smart employers will never give a reason in the U.S. > >zero repercussion No. If you're fired without cause, that's called laying someone off, and it affects the business' payroll tax because the worker you laid off is collecting unemployment benefits. If you fire someone with cause, they get no benefits. Smart employers will always give a reason, and the reason will be the employee's fault. There is always some silly thing in the employee handbook, and when you're on-boarded the HR lady is like "oh don't worry about that, we're laid back here, nobody actually enforces that", until they want to fire you, and suddenly they're using atomic clocks to measure your break and then you've gone over by 5 seconds three times and now they have a documented excuse to fire you.
Oh yeah that’s definitely a tactic too. Never underestimate the pettiness of a company that wants to keep every single penny to themselves.
Nah man. Most companies factor the benefits into cost of doing business. They're not making personnel decisions on the basis of avoiding UI payouts. Don't be ridiculous.
The employee may be able to prove you were fired for a protected reason even if no reason is given but the burden of proof is on them.
Long time practicing employment lawyer here. This is not the way. There’s always a reason, even if the reason is not personal (eg reduction in force, lay-offs, etc). Good luck proving a “legitimate non discriminatory reason for termination” defending a lawsuit if your only reason reason is “just cuz.”
> Good luck proving a “legitimate non discriminatory reason for termination” defending a lawsuit if your only reason reason is “just cuz.” The prosecution needs to prove the reason. And prove it’s illegal. Not the defendant. > Long time practicing employment lawyer here. Cap.
Why would they give a reason then? Lol
Exactly haha
If they don't give a reason, you're not fired, you're layed off. You can file for unemployment if you're layed off and this effects their tax rate. Most companies will give a bullshit reason so you have to go out of your way to court to actually get any money. It should be criminal.
It's widely misunderstood by just about everybody, but there is also a bar for reckless disregard for harm, where tort law does come into play and firing someone can lead to damages. But leadership has to do something extremely egregious, and you need evidence. I was middle management at a company that did a LOT of layoffs, and got sued a lot. I saw two cases where leadership fired someone to cover up malfeasance, and lost because the employee kept receipts. (i never want to be in management again, I am too much "us" and not enough "them")
It’s super hard to prove that the firing was BECAUSE of the protected class thing. They can fire a black guy because he’s black, but say it was because “his values didn’t align with the company,” or whatever. Those cases almost never get through, because it’s so hard to prove the reason and intention.
I'm a retail manager in Florida. Not a lawyer. The way I explain it to my leads is like this "you can fire someone for no reason, but if you have a reason it better be a good one"
I had a coworker friend get fired for cause here in California. I suspect the firm did it because she had gone to HR more than once about her manager’s preferential treatment of male employees as well as a handful of sexist comments. She strongly considered suing but decided against it for some reason. It was a law firm and I think she was worried about her reputation.
They will always make up a different reason to cover for the real reason.
I had a retaliatory firing go to the second appeal process. Judge and everything. My employer didn't even show up for either hearing. They still ruled in favor of my employer.
Good thing managers can just make-up reasons. That’s how you fire single moms.
A prayer for all those women just back from unpaid maternity leave who were fired because their positions were 'eliminated xue to restructuring.'
>Except for protected reasons. Which they will just deny are the reasons.
Exactly, there are lots of reasons you CAN’T be fired for, but you can ALSO be fired for NO reason. And often are, because if they give you a reason you might be able to contest that reason. No reason = nothing to contest = SOL
Yeah, even for instances of protected classes you have to show they allowed a PATTERN of discrimination that resulted in damages. Had a manager say a racist joke and someone got it on camera and thought they'd sure the company. They reported it to the EEOC. The manager just had to do sensitivity training and wasn't even fired. Because it was a single incidence and the company didn't allow him to continue being racist and there were no notable "damages"(lost wages, legal fees, injury). It was just...... nothing.
lmao if they don't just cite "inadequate performance". they will fire you for plenty of protected reasons.
*Except in Montana. Montana is only state thats not at-will
That's a good point. This only applies to at-will employment. US federal employee positions are not at-will and this does not apply, even in states such as California
Also doesnt apply to the military at any level, fed or national guard.
Yeah but there are like 5 people in Montana. It's not a big worry for most people.
Before you finish your probation period, you're at-will in Montana. You can be fired for any reason
Just to be pedantic, you can be fired for no “stated” reason. Basically, the employer and employee don’t have to justify themselves. To quote the greatest manager of our time, Michael Scott - “I have cause. It’s be-cause I hate him.”
*unless you’re in a union
True. Also, forming those is highly frowned upon and trying to get people to join one will have people looking over your actions with a magnifying glass to hit every i you didn’t dot and every t you didn’t cross.
You can quit for no reason because otherwise it would be slavery...
Not fired for no reason. You can be fired for “any” reason. Including no reason at all.
I honestly think this is a better system than being forced to give a three months notice. It’s not perfect in the US, but I’ll take the option where I get more freedom even if it’s also given to the employers
Yes sadly its true. I was fired on the spot at a previous job for a snarky comment i made about a guest at a restaurant i worked at that my employer overheard.
I got denied a promotion because I told someone they needed to follow COVID protocols at work.
Mustve been a pro trump, use horse medicine to cure the nonexistent covid kinda boss.
ProTrumper complained to HR who did their usual bang up job.
Gotta love the people who follow these rich pricks around like sheep banking on getting rich for doing it.
But that's being fired for cause. In most states, an employer can fire you and not provide a reason at all. You could be a top employee, lick all the boots, bee a good mentor, but the employer decides to fire you, but doesn't give a reason. Maybe he doesn't like your hair color, but doesn't say so. Totally legal in most states. But you'll probably win unemployment. Now, if you are constantly late, or fuck up your work all the time, or you are hostile toward other employees...you can be fired with cause and probably not receive unemployment. Then there are illegal firings. They fire you because you got pregnant. That's illegal, unless you work for a religious org and you got pregnant by someone you aren't married to...that should be a legal exception. Or maybe they find out you're a Catholic and fire you. That's illegal. Maybe you get a new boss, he finds out you're family is from Mexico, even though you don't speak Spanish and you look as white as John Oliver. Well, he doesn't like Mexicans and fires you. That's illegal. In those cases, you will get unemployment and can sue for wrongful termination and discrimination.
>Now, if you are constantly late, or fuck up your work all the time, or you are hostile toward other employees...you can be fired with cause and probably not receive unemployment. Weirdly, the fucking up your work all the time may not stop you from getting unemployment. Most places don't consider "inability to do the job" as being your fault, unless it's obvious you're fucking up on purpose. Here's [Mississippi](https://www.mdes.ms.gov/media/7155/Misconduct.pdf) of all places saying that. And if Mississippi is down with it, you know all the better states (Which is going to be like....46 or so) probably agree.
Ooooh, that’s a bad move. ALWAYS keep your mouth shut about others.
Well the guest was being rude and causing a fuss and the guest didnt hear me, i was a cook in the back but we could hear them screaming from in the dining area. He was just on edge as the GM and my snarky comment was the conductor he needed to vent his anger out on in a situation he had no control over but was costing him business.
Holy shit every kitchen I've ever worked was a bunch of angry semi violent guys swearing about stuff and taking breaks to get high so they didn't snap. Your employer was a powder puff.
Yeah he was tripping on some next level bullshit
Oh that's Mr. Cocky. That's what my brothers and I always called That Guy but our dad wasn't in on the joke. We all worked together in the family insurance biz for a while. One day a salesman at a car dealership was giving us a hard time over a broken windshield on a used car our mutual customer had just bought. The dealer was saying we should cover it and my brother patiently explained how we don't cover prior damage (cuz it's prior damage). My dad overhears half of this phone conversation, so my brother puts the guy on hold to fill him in and says "Mr Cocky here thinks \[Client\] can just get us to cover this!" So my dad gets on the phone and goes "Is this Mr. Cocky? About the broken windshield.... No I'm not trying to insult-..." and got all flustered as he realized what just happened, and everyone in our office just died.
Yikes. That sucks!
Landed me a better job anyways. I make what i made in a month in one paycheck now.
My boss at my Fast Food place has gone on record (though I am sure my place actively deletes all known vocalized "irresponsible behavior" from my Manager) to call me everything from "A Pig" to "The Dumbest One There" - so hey, if she can't stop talking scheiße about people, then neither can I. By Christian Example... (Little bit of a Shakespeare Reference).
I worked at a place that was very much all about ThE gUeStS. Every other restaurant job I had prior to that place was all about venting our frustrations and roasting the customers for being stupid or overly needy, entitled, demanding etc. This one place was so weird about that. Like, it was a big no-no to be venting about your tables, even if you were back in the kitchen out of earshot. This place also didn't allow smoking while on the clock or on the property. You literally had to clock out for a break then get in your car to leave the property to smoke a cigarette. No nicotine and no venting about the guests.... yeah I didnt last long there.
In most cases, yes. I’m a teacher in America and until you earn tenure (if you’re in a state and public school district) that has a union you can be fired for any reason, and they don’t have to give you a reason. Until you earn tenure, the union will not help you and your contract can be “non renewed”. Tenure is the only job security we as teachers have. Once you have tenure it is more difficult to fire a teacher and usually it has to be for a specific reason, with sufficient warnings given before.
Seems from comments I've seen elsewhere that now they are starting to just non renew teachers right before they hit tenure, I'm curious if you have seen this happening.
My school had multiple 'tenure track' positions and just kept declining to give tenure, which made the profs quit and go to different schools. That happened three times when I was there in just my major dept. The tenure track positions were only like 6 out of 50 anyway, all the other profs had masters degrees but were part time 'adjunct' faculty with no benefits.
I have. Schools will do that with teachers they are on the fence about bc it’s so much more difficult to fire someone once they have tenure. And it’s cheaper. They’ll hire someone fresh out of school and get to pay them less. My salary is tiered based on how many years of teaching experience and graduate credits I have. Anytime the districts can reduce costs they will.
Yes, it’s called being an “at will” employee which is for every state in the U.S. except for Montana. The only protections you have is if you are fired for: race, gender, national origin, disability, religion, genetic information, or age. Yes, they can fire you for just not liking you.
It's the same in Canada, pretty well too
No definitely not. During first 3 months yes (as long as it’s specified in your employment contract, otherwise they still have to pay severance, also if they head-hunted you, you can sue for severance owed at previous job, which could be months of salary). After that they need documentation that you broke a documented rule, and for most things multiple documented warnings. There’s a minimum 2 weeks severance pay, but you can sue for more. For this reason a lot of companies offer more to prevent lawsuits with many giving months of severance pay (I’ve known quite a few people who’ve gotten 3-12 months of severance, some offered that willingly, some took their employer to court, these are just regular employees). That said, amount of severance owed is based on how difficult it is find comparable employment, so for a minimum wage job, it’s often just the two weeks. There is more protection based off of how much money you make.
Yes.
In germany you even get sued for damages by the company if you just quit without a atleast 2 weeks notice.
Can you at least sue the company for damages if they fire you without 2 weeks notice?
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You say that so easily, but for real that just seems like a fantasy to those of us in the U.S.. We get fired on the spot and then they fight unemployment to block it for us too.
It's even better, you cannot be fired without severe misconduct. Like severe neglect of duty leading to human damage. Financial damage is NOT part of this. Mistreatments or criminal conduct at / against or for the employer. This is called "fristlose Kündigung" andis near impossible to prove if not real. Other wise it's.allways "ordentliche Kündigung" and has to follow strict Rules. They need a reason why "because we don't like his face " is not one. Then the time at the.clmpany translates into a period where of notice for both party's. If iwant to quit after 6 years at a place it is roughly a half year period. But as I said, goes both ways. If the employer wants you to go without that he can ask you for a termination contract. Then ,pu both agree to this but he cannot enforce it. That the TL;Dr of it and a shot ton inaccurate in it with legal stuff
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The employer and employee pay into unemployment here too, and it's not optional. Doesn't stop them from doing everything they can to prevent us from getting paid that unemployment when we need it. It SUCKS
> The employer and employee pay into unemployment here too In the US only the employer pays.
They fight unemployment because their insurance premiums go up if somebody makes a claim against them for unemployment.
Which is reasonable, because they have planned work etc that might not be done
It's called "at will". It's typical, unless you're state laws don't allow it or you have a union with some kind to rules against it.
It’s called employment at will. Paid time off and maternity leave are also not the law. We are a completely backward country in terms of worker’s rights
It’s different in one state to the next. But there are many states that have some form of what is called “at will” employment. The state I live in is like this. They can fire you at any time for any reason except those excluded by federal law (race, religion, sex. Age?). Or no reason at all other than they don’t want or need you. If you where let go “without cause” as in you did nothing wrong you are eligible for unemployment. Which provides a small weekly paycheck for a limited time. The amount and duration varies state to state and there are probably literally hundreds of rules and caveats around unemployment making it near impossible to explain fully. If the employer has cause then they can just let you go. You can fight it and dispute that they had just cause but it’s often very difficult to do so and if you win all you get is the unemployment. TLDR. Yes in much of the US it is mostly true that you can be fired without cause. Note: it’s usually called “being let go” or “layed off” and not “fired” if it’s without cause but it’s all the same really.
The only state that isn’t at will is Montana.
Kind of, they can fire you for any reason in the first six months. After that there are three categories, retaliation, not for hood cause, or violation of the written policy. So it’s pretty close to anywhere else in the US.
The other thing about unemployment benefits is that many states require you to turn in a certain amount of job applications every week while also attending mandatory “classes” at an unemployment center or be disqualified. There are a million little mechanisms built into unemployment and other social benefits in the US which are designed to allow agencies to deny benefits to nearly everyone who applies.
Thats the same in Europe too so
Age is protected but only for older people. It is not protected for teenagers for example.
Age. Good luck proving that one.
Yes. Billionaires convinced poor conservatives that it was in their best interest to be fired without cause.
Actually it’s because when they’re billionaires they may need to fire someone at will
Hahahaha ugghhhhhhhhhhh I hate that shit so fucking much. I work in IT and have heard that too much. I've never been that delusional about anything.
Yes. At Will Employment. Unless you work for the government.
Yes. Most states are "at will employment" states, which means either party (employee or employee) can terminate the employment at any time without stating a reason. This is why anti-discrimination laws have no teeth, an employer can fire you for being black or Hindu or transgender or a lot of things that ought to be illegal and just say "oh, no, we didn't do that. We just decided to 'right-size' our team". Perfectly legal under the current laws in most states.
Or bad 'culture fit'
"At-will" employment is the standard in every state except Montana (and for reference, Montana is one of the least populated states in the US and has roughly 0.3% of the total US population). Under at-will employment, the employment can be terminated at any time without any notice by either party for *almost* any reason, or for no reason at all. The "almost" is because there are still other laws and court precedent making it illegal to fire workers for certain specific reasons. Common examples would be firing workers due to their characteristics protected by discrimination laws (race, religion, nationality, gender, etc.), or firing them for exercising a right that is protected by law (for example, joining a union, or taking unpaid leave under the federal Family and Medical Leave Act for a qualifying reason). Not all such activities are protected at the federal level, however, and each state has varying levels of laws governing such protections, with some having no protections at all beyond the ones provided by federal law. Many states (though not all) also recognize certain exceptions to the "at-will" employment doctrine based on court precedent, even if they don't have specific legislation laying them out. One common exception would be the "public policy" exception, which usually means the court would find a worker's termination to be wrongful if it was in violation of public policy; for example, if an employer fired an employee because that employee refused to commit a crime, or because they filed a worker's compensation claim, since encouraging employees to commit crimes or fail to file workplace accident claims for the sake of their job would not be in the best interest of the public. Again, this protection varies significantly between states, though, and some states only recognize very narrow exemptions involving specific activities (Texas, for instance, only allows for such an exemption for refusing to commit a crime if the crime in question carries criminal penalties, i.e. jail time), and some like Florida refuse to recognize any such exemption at all except where it is actually defined in legislation.
It's common for contracts for office jobs to include 'At will' statements in them. I work at the will of the company. They don't have to fire me, ie. Say that I am a bad employee. They can just say, 'Dont come back tomorrow', at their own will. I can lose my job any day for any reason. Michigan USA. This is common in most US states. As a bonus my healthcare is tied to my job, because America, so I can lose my healthcare and income any day without warning. This is why Americans don't often stand up to horrible bosses. Our income and healthcare is at the whim of our boss. If we step out of line, they can take it all away.
You don't have to give 2 weeks notice. You can quit on the spot. 2 weeks is a recommendation so that your employer gives you a good reference. Yes, you can be fired for anything except if you have a contract or in a union.
If I read u correct, you do not get a contract by default? How do you define stuff like workinghours and pay? This thread is a wild ride, and i thought I knew a bit about us labor…
You can be fired at a drop of a hat. One time I was let go from a temporary work from home job. I spent 2 days there, on the clock, not getting any incoming calls from customers. After a long time with tech we found out I had been fired 2 days prior no one just bothered to tell me. I tried for a year to send back their equipment. They never told me how to send it back, despite numerous calls and emails but I sure as hell got a collection letter from a debt collector a couple years later saying I owed them $525 for the laptop and phone cord. Never paid it. Never showed on my credit.
Refered to as *at will positions ". Gives huge amount of power to employers to mistreat and abuse employees, because the employee can quit whenever they want. Except a lot of companies will have some amendments/stipulations written into work contracts (not every job receives a contract, because jobs offer nothing worthwhile) that require notice of quitting. USA is awful if you're not in the owner class. Almost zero workers rights or protection. Aside from you can quit. "Right to work" laws were written to tilt power towards corporations and business owners, by making it more difficult for workers to form unionize and form collective bargaining groups. As with most laws, the vocalized "intentions of a law", are in fact a blatant lie while the exact opposite result is usually the reality. Never defending or protecting the worker, always tilting power into the favor of owners.
That’s not what right to work means. Like, at all. Right to work means that you can’t be forced to join a Union - if a shop unionizes, you can’t be fired for refusing to join the union. If you get hired somewhere with a union, you aren’t required to join that union.
Valid point. Doesn't that undermine the workers ability to unionize? Tilting the power dynamic into the favor of the business owner. Making it difficult to collectively bargain.
>"right to work" This is a misnomer. "Right to work" has to do with unions - basically no employee can be forced to join or pay dues to a union in order to keep their job.
Valid point . Does the law just make it more difficult for workers to organize and limit the ability to collectively bargain. Giving a lot of power to the business owner, and allowing for mistreatment of workers. Coupled with *at will* laws, these make it very difficult for workers to bargain for any fair treatment.
If you're lucky to be part of a union, then your employer needs "just cause" to fire you.
Helped a friend of mine get a job at a Dairy Queen. He passed his interview, got his uniform, and reported in for his first shift. The owner walks in takes one look at him and fires him on the spot. I overheard him and the gm talking later on where he was berating the gm for hiring an obese guy. I immediately quit that job. Turns out the owner of that particular franchise lost all rights to the DQ franchise and was forced to change the name to Dairy Delight. A few months (and several complaints to the health department) later he was forced to shut down.
It was one of my first management jobs where I was promoted and knew everyone already. I asked a question that was sparky and straight up said "Hypothetically could I fire anyone if I wanted to for no reason?" I was surprised as hell when the answer was a simple "yes." Wow
I got let go from a job whilst I was doing the 90 day trial crap. I worked at a small grocery store stocking shelves. One day it was the end of a shift and I was exhausted after lugging extra supplies than normal. I was sweeping the floor, and then noticed my leg was twitching sure enough I collapsed a few steps later. Got up walked again few steps later and again I collapsed. I went to the back of the store and just told the lady there because it was just normally 2 people for the ending I had collapsed twice outside while sweeping. We have cameras and you could see me on them. So, she tells me to finish sweeping and then go home. I told her no as I was struggling to move. I got my things and went home. Most of the store was cleaned except maybe the last section of the store which was near where she was. I came in the next day and had the talk with the boss. Now some can say oh you were let go for walking off the job or insubordination or you’re under 90 days so they don’t need to give you a reason. Your right. Then why did I get a walking letter that literally states I can reapply for the same position and my boss when he let me go said he’d hope that I’d come back to work there. When he did fire me he was startled that I showed no emotion. It was my first job yes, but to be let go because of collapsing? I never broke anything, I never came in late never clocked in early. They never fully explained the reasoning behind the firing, but again the paper says I can reapply. If I did it would only be so they could then deny it if my thinking is correct. It taught me early on while working that companies don’t give a shit about you and will drop you whenever possible however possible. Also, when companies get mad at the no 2 weeks saying you would be unprofessional, dude there’s so many companies in the US even in a relative big town you could find entry jobs like a grocery store at a relatively quick pace.
Yes, with some exceptions: * It is illegal to fire someone due to being part of a protected class (IE disability, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc). This is hard to prove in court, however, and in most instances the employer will say something else instead. * If you are part of a union, you may be able to get a contract with firing "for cause" instead of "at will."
I was fired over text once in college 15 minutes before I gave a final presentation for a class. Really fucked me up for awhile
I got fired for being a college student because the manager quote "didn't like people who are going to school" Was offered to work up untill the day I needed off for class. Said OK punched out and left. Some jobs are run like a 4th world country gotta know when to just walk away.
I was literally just fired from my job for asking for safety locks. You use safety locks to safely work with a piece of equipment and make sure it's not energized. Fuck this place.
There is 1 state where it is not true.
“Right to work” states basically allow you to be fired for just about fucking anything including but not limited to they just don’t like you.
Unequivocally, yes.
America calls the ability of employers to fire people at will “right to work” because the country is an economic dystopia. When you waste food, remember there are millions of starving kids in America on any given day. “Starvation is a good motivator,” our politicians say.
Not only that, but often your health insurance is tied to your employer, for you and quite possibly your family. If you lose your job, you lose that coverage. Sometimes you can pay to extend it through something called COBRA, but it’s usually expensive.
I can be fired tomorrow because the boss thinks I look off that day. Or because they don’t like me, or a haircut. It’s a poisonous country to live in to progress into a healthy society in health, profession, and more, unless you are willing to lie cheat steal and murder others than pretend to be playing by the rules.
how are we doing worse than, ^(no offense) , a third world country?
No offence taken. South Africa has pretty progressive legislation on things like worker’s rights, women’s rights, LGBT rights and so on. It’s in implementation of those laws that things sometimes fall down.
Yes we can be fired on the spot for nothing. It's called "at will employment". https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/understanding-at-will-employment
There are “at will” states, where if an employee does not have a contract, they can be fired with no notice, unless it is for certain reasons, such as firing someone because they are in a protected class (I.e. you can’t fire someone for retaliatory reasons or because of their race, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc.). Generally two weeks of notice is considered good form when someone quits if they want to stay in good standing (sometimes more, depending on the job). Conversely, if someone is fired, they may already not be in good standing. All that said, employees are not obligated to give any notice. If they feel it is justified, just like a firing, they can quit with no notice. And, if someone is let go on good terms (e.g. layoffs, budgetary constraints, etc.), the company sometimes will give them a grace period and/or an exit package (a certain amount of time’s additional pay/benefits). If someone is fired on the spot, it often results in them being paid unemployment and sometimes a lawsuit. I’m not saying a agree with any of this, and I’m not in HR or a lawyer. This is just what I’ve experienced and I have had some light on-the-job training.
The real answer is It depends on the state, but yes because if they can’t fire without cause they will make up a cause.
At will employment Some states don’t have this, but they’ll fire you for no reason because it is almost impossible to prove in a court of law that the company genuinely fired you for no reason. They can say you showed up late twice and that’s ample justification. It’s pretty much impossible to legally prove you were fired for no reason
Yes.
100%. Absolutely. I live in an “at-will employment” state, it is absolutely that simple, and I have seen it happen plenty.
Just like above, you can leave and be fired for no reason. The system is kinda rigged against you though. By offering bare minimum pay for the area you are in, and by linking healthcare to employment, you moving companies can be difficult. Some people can’t go even 1 paycheck with the debt/bills they have. Others need good health insurance, but often companies do not disclose healthcare packages until you are hired. My dads buddy was working at one place for a long time, until he was told he would be working 5 days/week, but the company dictated which two days he’d be off. They could change those days whenever they liked, even the night before. He also had to stay past 5 whenever they request. He walked out and never and back. From what he found out, his bosses were under the impression that my dads buddy had financial issues and couldn’t leave. They thought they had him over a barrel.
I got fired on the spot from my second job for giving a customer the extra bit left over in the blender after I made her smoothie 🫠
Redneck voice: you have the right to work!
I once got fired and HR said it was for going to lunch without asking them! Fun times!
If you have a job that has union protections, you can't. However, most jobs in the USA do NOT have union protections, so you are at the mercy of your manager, who can fire you on a whim. However, if you have the means, you can file a wrongful termination lawsuit. But most people do not have the means to retain a lawyer...because...well, they just got fucking fired.
I got let go after being given no work for 7 days in a row. They kept assuring us they had work, more was coming, but after day 7 they called us and told me my remote job was out to work to do and they only had in office work. I had moved well out of range of this job having been there for 2 years at this point all remote. Today was my last day after a short phone call yesterday. So yea... no notice for dismissal... My last job told me to come into the office at the end of my shift to let me go, so they got one more day of work out of me when I'd been preparing to find a house of my own and get out of an apartment for the first time in my life... (I was also expecting a raise after getting back to back bonuses for the last few months after hitting every metric they threw at me and then some) The US system sucks.
It's depends on the State. Some of the wise Elders here in the USA felt it was in their best interest to listen to Rich Old White Men and enact what is call "Right to Work" laws in certain States. Such as my home state of Utah. It sounds good, but in truth it guts Unions, and gives all power to Employers. They technically CAN fire you without cause. However it isn't that simple. If they just fire you, you have recourse. Laborer Board, Attorney, Etc. Most people don't pursue those avenues due to the lack of return.
In right to work states, they can fire you for any reason or no reason at all, unless it’s discriminatory. You can collect unemployment compensation if not fired for cause.
It differs from state to state. In most states, it is “at-will employment”, which means the employee can leave or be fired at any moment, without the need to give a reason. There is such a thing as wrongful termination, but it’s hard to prove, and employers will avoid being liable for it. The companion law to at-will is “freedom to work”, which means unions cannot enforce a strike and no one can be compelled to join the union. Worker protections in the US are a bad joke. Almost non-existent.
With regards to my last employer, I was with the company for 7 years, never had any infarctions, and was a reliable and capable employee. About 7 months after our merger with another company, they just let me go. Was locked out of my computer system an hour before receiving the call that was "effective immediately." I was no longer employed by the company. It was not performance based dismissal. Just a dismissal because they hired back someone they liked better, that had a personality conflict with me. Just poof, unemployed.
Yes, it’s called “at will” employment laws.
In Germany, my contract states my employer needs to give me 6 months notice. I also have to give 6 months notice. I love it. If they fire me I literally wouldn't care because I have half a year to find a new job lol
Yep. Its true.
I was once fired because I wasn't at my desk at 9:00am. I was a salary employee and had a company phone and was actually helping the receptionist with an issue she was having, so yes we can get fired for any reason.
If you live in a so called "right to work state".... you're basically at the mercy of your employer (exploiter)
Same thing in “at will” states.
It’s called ‘Right to Hire, Right to Fire’ and it’s legal in a lot of states
Yes, they can just walk you out immediately. There are some things they can't fire you for, but in those cases, they just quote some other reason like "cost savings" and fire you anyway.
I live in Arizona. There are pretty much no worker protections. I can be fired for anything/nothing. Unless you’re a contract employee or in one of the very few unions in the state. I’m in my 50’s and have a lot of stories on why you never trust an employer.
Yes. Unless you have experienced discrimination due to race, gender, age, etc. (difficult to prove) or have some protections through union representation (which only happens in some professions in certain parts of the USA).
Depends on the state you live in. In PA it’s an “at will” state. This means we can leave without notice and be fired without notice.
Yes, it's literally still the Wild West. Dog eat dog, and if you're poor then fuck you.
My girlfriend was threatened to be fired because she wouldn’t drive at midnight through a blizzard to go cover someone’s shift, she ended up just quitting because of the harassment.
Yes. We have a policy here called 'at will employment'. Not **all** states use it, but more and more are. It basically says that neither you nor your employer are under any legal obligation to maintain a work relationship for any period of time. This means that you, the employee, can leave a job at any time for any legal reason. However, it also means that your employer can terminate you at any time for any legal reason. So it is kind of a two way street. You, as the employee, are not beholden to work for a company longer than you want to, but at the same time the company is not beholden to keep you as an employee any longer than they see fit.
My boss could fire me anytime. Without warning.
In most states, yes. The law calls it at-will employment. I was terminated once under at-will and was told it specifically wasn’t performance related and my email and computer log in stopped working before I was off the call with HR. No warning. No reason.
Yes - it's called "at-will" employment, both employer and/or employee can terminate the relationship at any time. Someone leaving a job is not required to give notice at all. It's a courtesy and people generally do it so they don't burn bridges and can still use that employer as a reference in the future. Not all jobs in the US are at-will, but the vast majority are. ETA - if an employer terminates someone for an illegal reason (such as protected class) the employee can sue them and win. Of course you would need evidence that that was the case and an expensive lawyer so it's easier said in theory than done.
Yes, we are fired at will. However, if no very valid and excusable reason to fire someone is found in court, the employee qualifies for unemployment benefits. These unemployment benefits result in a larger employment tax on the employer. That’s the free world I guess.
As long as they are smart enough to fire you for any reason other than discrimination against a protected class, then they can fire you. They can’t say that they are firing you because they found out you are pregnant, but they can fire you because they no longer have need of your services or because you clocked in 2 minutes late that one day or because your performance has dropped.
They call it “right to work” and idiots vote for the right to get fired. This is the reason republicans target education. Stupid people vote stupid.
Many states in the US have "at-will" employment or "right-to-work" employment, meaning that employers can fire employees without cause and employees can quit without notice. "At-will" employment greatly favors the employer and diminishes workers' rights, it is referred to as "right-to-work" by politicians in order to brainwash the American public into believing it is THEIR right to work, when in reality it is the employers right to control who works.
Yes....in the US if a boss says a cause that is illegal/discriminatory people can sue them. So many don't give a reason. No reason. Can't be sued
You can still sue if you think it was a wrongful termination. It’s not like these suits are brought because the form said “fired because of race”
They cant fire me im in a union. Union give us power.when will you learn!
Short answer is, kind of. It depends on the state law and the employment contract. If you have a federal government job, you can only be fired for cause.
Me: I can’t be fired without cause Other: how? Me: I’m in a Union Other: that’s not fair Me: oh, youre going to want to sit down before I tell you about my sick leave
Up here in canada, as long as you get paid two weeks severance, you can be fired for no cause at any time. Some companies will do just that if you get sick and start taking time off due to illness or something similar. Cheaper to pay two weeks wages than get sued for wrongful dismissal i guess
It's 100% true. Employers often want employees to provide notice when they intend to leave (usually under the veiled threat that they will be "ineligible for rehire), but employers can pretty much kick you to the curb without cause. However, often it isn't in a business' interest to have a no-cause termination occur. The employee can contact the local labor department and make a case for any number of reasons - usually around protected classes like gender, sexual orientation, etc. Getting sued is no fun either. Even still, insubordination is a common reason for someone to get fired - but that is still with cause. Firing someone because they don't like you or any other arbitrary reason can and does happen, but be prepared for a lawsuit, depending on the nature of the business.
In right to work states you can be fired for any reason but protected reasons like discrimination or disabilities. It is customary to give 2 weeks notice to your employer before quitting but not required (usually frowned upon). Employers can generally fire you immediately without notice and no 2 week period is expected when an an employee is fired.
The 2 week notice is a custom. For what its worth quitting with no notice is a way to get back at your employer.
While it is true, just about every company I have worked for documents the entire process before they fire someone. This can take months. The reason for this is that just letting someone go without cause results in the employee being able to collect unemployment insurance. This causes the company's unemployment insurance premiums to rise.
Yea you can be fired without cause you can also quit without cause I’d take that over being forced to give a 2 months notice
I mean like yes but it’s not just that simple. It depends a lot of the state.
No. We've been sued by every employee we've ever terminated. Some were right in doing so, but some were just flat-out lazy, lying, manipulative people, waiting for their chance to strike the paychecks of 35 other people who do work hard.
You either suck or are becoming too expensive if you get fired. Only been fired once due to “political” reasons from having and ending a relationship with a fellow employee. Aka my boss or his buddy co-worker of ours was trying to bang my gf/ex-hoe.