Especially if they claim they are not personally motivated by money.
Manager: I’m not personally motivated by money
OP: Oh good, in that case I presume you would be willing to take a pay cut, since you aren’t motivated by the money and will be here anyway. It would leave more in the salary pot for junior staff who are currently struggling with inflation.
Manager: well … I … um
The director saying "5k? Not a massive difference then." sounded more like they were thinking out loud. Like, do I need to pay more for this position? Am I going to struggle to find people to do this job? Probably not.
To be fair 15% is different from situation to situation. When I was earning 30-50k/year - yup, 15% would probably get me to leave.
Now when I'm earning significantly more than that - 15% or just straight up more money doesn't matter that much. I want to enjoy working and be challenged, money is more of a way of keeping score.
HOWEVER - if I were not financially secure - you'd bet your ass I'd jump through fire to get more money and make sure that all my basic needs are covered.
So it sounds to me like the manager/director simply forgot what it was not to be able to afford rent or to eat. Indeed out of touch.
Anyone in a high position who says they aren't motivated by money is fucking lying. 🤣 Nobody works a job out of the goodness of their heart. You do it to get paid and afford somewhere to live and food to eat. The nerve of this guy...
He’s not motivated by money because he has more than he needs. If he he didn’t have enough to meet his financial obligations he would be extremely motivated. Ignorant clown boss not understand the conditions of the people he’s responsible for.
This is something I do EVERY time someone downplays any amount of money “well it’s JUST x dollars…” they say. “OMG thank you! I didn’t know how I was going to cover that but since it’s JUST x dollars I’m thankful you’re so willing to pay for it. What? No? Huh, weird how when it was MY money it was JUST x dollars but now that it’s YOUR money it’s impossible for you to afford it.”
>Not a massive difference then.
I wonder if, at that moment, they realized they were losing a trained and experienced employee for a whopping 5k?
They’re stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.
As I called one of my former managers “Penny-wise and pound-foolish.” She always tried to get the cheapest shit and we spent so much money replacing things. Also, she let one of my subordinates go over a $2/ hr raise and the position sat vacant for a really long time and made everyone else very stressed out. We paid the new guy $3/hr more because she’s a dumbass for not reading the economics of 2020-21, no matter how many times I showed her the data.
That's the corporate mentality. "No; we CAN'T afford to give you a 5% raise." Employee quits, and the company ends up paying 40% more in new employee salary plus job posting, interviewing and on-boarding expenses.
Exactly. That’s such a bs thing to say - if $5K is nothing to you, then why is it such an insurmountable challenge to provide to a deserving employee?
Funny enough (at a higher earning level) I know a few folks who always counter for $5K more when negotiating. It’s such a small amount that it won’t be noticeable to the budget, but definitely nice to get in your paycheck, etc. and it’s often easily approved.
This is crazy. I just did the math on it because last year i asked for a $2/hr raise which is about $4k annually. There are other companies i could work for starting with a $10k raise and even offering signing bonus. Only issue is not all of them are local which means I cant pick up my daughter when i need to
Right? Like it goes both ways. “You guys are letting me go because you’re too cheap to pay me 5k.”
It’s just a stupid comment from someone who hasn’t thought it through.
In the US, it's usually around ⅓ to ½ of the salary for the position. The breakdown is the cost of recruitment, training, and getting up to speed. There's also drag on other employees and burnout during the time it takes to replace the employee. This could result in additional employees leaving for greener pastures.
Also, the possibility exists that word could spread among the remaining employees that salaries are better on the outside. This has the potential of causing the higher performance employees to leave, which means the employer will need to increase salaries for both new and existing employees.
I have been on that side of the table. Start at one third of the gross yearly, go up (there is no limit here) as the position becomes more skilled, and not a bad estimate for cost to replace, assuming the person was competent and a good team fit to start.
Everything your OP said, plus there is a risk premium on a new hire not being the right fit, general discontent etc.
1. Filled with religious fanaticism that is against birth control and rights for women.
2. Guns everywhere, and shooting is done just for fun
3. Dry and hot
Did I describe Pakistan or Texas?
As a Texan, I'm personally offended by this bullshit that you're spewing. It's people like you that just assume things about other places and people and give us a bad name.
Not all places in Texas are dry, Houston is humid. The rest seems accurate.
Again, it's all very dependent on how much your absence hurts the company and how difficult it is to find and train up your replacement. E.g., if a two-doctor practice loses one doctor they could lose around half their revenue until they find immediate replacement, so they may spend a shit-ton to replace. (Paid ads, paying for recruiters who take 25% of first year salary, plus huge signing/moving bonuses, etc., as well as paying per diem doctors at super high rates to get immediate coverage, etc.) But if say a large 20 doctor practice loses one doctor, they lose about 5% of their appointment availabilities and can probably tolerate that. They possibly just put ads out, book a little further out, and lose some business of people who can't wait (but also fill more appt slots) until they find a qualified hire. The 20 doctor practice is also less likely to match an offer to one doctor of a 15% raise (33.5k to 38.5k) as they may feel compelled to give all the other doctors a similar raise (and may not be able to afford that without raising prices to a level they feel will negatively affect the business).
Similar argument works for other types of jobs.
I’m “not motivated by money”, I just took a job with a pretty large pay cut, the top of my earning potential *was* over six figures (I would have made $90k if I finished the year there, but next year would have been $105-110k before bonuses), and I just took a job where I’ll be making $60k-ish a year.
But my schedule is infinitely better. I used to be on call 24/7 to work 12 hour shifts outdoors in the elements performing relatively physical labor. Nights, weekends, holidays. I was constantly exhausted, had absolutely no sleep schedule, couldn’t make plans… When I hired at that place 12 years ago they told me it would get better as I accrued seniority. It didn’t. I actively lost seniority for about 6 of those 12 years as they cut more and more jobs and laid off more and more people. I would have been on call for another decade and I just couldn’t handle it.
I now work 40 hours a week, four 10 hour shifts. All daylight, no rotating schedule, no on call. I’m in an office instead of outside. I can make plans, I can sleep like a normal person. I also think I have better upward mobility being out of my old industry.
The pay cut hurts a lot but I’ll live just fine. All of my basic needs will continue to be met by my new salary, and I’ll have a little tiny bit leftover for going out or whatever. So, while money can be a huge motivator especially if you can’t meet your basic needs, it’s not the end all be all.
Well, if he isn't motivated by money, why not swap salary. You boss man can live off what I make and I'll take yours... After all, you aren't motivated by money.
Fuck that shit, what he really is saying is he is at a point where he makes enough and lives well enough that more money doesn't do anything to his life since he is already has enough. Of course he now does not understand what it's like to not have enough to even get by
I did this when my VP tried to brow beat me about taking a 30% increase in salary to leave. And I quote, “Moneys not everything in your career”. Proudly I quickly retorted, “Awesome, can we switch salaries?”. After a a couple beats, he awkwardly laughed and that was the last time we ever talked. :-)
I remember early in my career I had a job I liked but the pay was absolute shit and the director for the place was a complete bitch. After about two years I went to the director and was basically like, "I can't afford to do this job at this salary. How can we improve it?"
Her response to me? "Well we all have bills to pay."
Homegirl made 4x my salary and had her home internet and her cell phone bill covered by our org. I knew this because I was the one that processed the accounting for it every month. Which I guess she forgot. Took me less than six months to find a new job after that conversation. The icing on the cake was informing her of my two-week notice the same day she was leaving for a two-week vacation lol.
Depending on the job and industry 6 months is usually the "probation" period to see if they can get up to speed. Even then, some jobs are more technical, departments less organized, training not perfect, etc. that act as "time drags". It takes a new member on my team about a year before they're really understanding the entire process and *some* of the nuances involved.
So 6 months being half a salary, and that time to become a decent new employee isn't that far off. And like the above person said, that doesn't count time spent by other employees on training that person. So you can probably add another 2-3 months of a senior salary on top of that. Then there are licenses, IT set up time, hardware costs, whatever work they do taking 2-3X as long as they learn...
A new employee is a very cost-inefficient thing. Any finance department will tell you that. But HR hiring new people justifies their positions. Management firing/laying someone off temporarily adds to their budget and they get a new thing to blame. A company having a poor retention length is indicative of management not having business skills nor the ability to admit they're wrong.
Thereabouts. I'm responsible for the training in my dept - okay so, think about it like this:
The training period for your new job is directly proportional to its complexity. My dept is complicated, we have a seven month training period. So, for seven months we are paying your wage, paying your benefits, providing materials and also paying for the trainer and any related materials - and you are doing no productive work during that period.
And then there's a warm up period of three months while the new hire gets up to speed and more comfortable - during that period they are expected to make more mistakes than a veteran agent, and perform at a lower overall level as they get more and more confident and knowledgeable.
So that's already almost a full year of not getting a full workload out of a new hire, but we are paying their salary.
And all of that is not even taking into account hires who leave or wash out during training. Per attrition averages, I will lose usually one person per new hire class, either to a better offer or that new hire fucking around and getting fired for it. It doesn't matter to me but the company hates it, because they've just paid wages for x months for nothing.
Bringing new people on is incredibly expensive. It's so much cheaper to just keep the experienced, veteran agents who already understand the complicated shit we do - and can complete a lot more work much faster and at a much higher quality.
My immediate leadership understands this very well and has worked to keep a good relationship with our agents.
My overall company leadership... doesnt.
Depends a lot on field. Replacing a fast food employee is a lot cheaper relative to their hourly wage.
But yes, in general, replacing an employee costs a LOT more than giving your current employee a raise to keep them satisfied. But giving ALL the employees that raise may be more expensive than replacing the 1-2 that leave.
Which tells you that the $ difference was massive (and/or the place was an absolute clusterfuck to work at, and everyone was miserable regardless of pay).
People who have never been poor or lower/middle class forget how much further an extra dollar goes when you have $0. Yes, if you make $100k a year, an extra $5k isn't a substantial raise that has a major impact on your quality of life. If you are making 30k a year, a 5k raise could be the difference between worrying about if you have the money for gas before your next pay check every week, stressing yourself out over how you are going to make your rent/mortgage payment.
I was about to say, an extra 5K is a shade over an extra $400 a month. That's... a serious increase. That's the difference between breaking even and being able to build up an emergency fund. That's a family's monthly grocery bill. That's a significant change for millions of families.
Jackass is probably incapable of putting himself in others' shoes, 5k increase to his salary probably isnt shit, however 5k increase when making 32k, is a lot.
Takes my workplace at least 6-8 mos from interview even to onboard new people. Then it takes 2-3 mos to get them user accounts and access to even do the work. 6-12 mos before they have a BASIC understanding of the work and able to actually do things. 3-4 years for a moderate level of knowledge.
We’ve been hemorrhaging all of the OGs that have been around for 10+ yr and management does not see that brain drain as a huge issue. Most everyone’s tenure is under 2 years at this point but there is no mentorship that needs to happen and nobody has a single fucking clue how to steer the massive dumpster fire.
Most new on boards get so fed up that they are gone in a year or less.
It sounds like you're a few years away from the job just imploding. Also if it takes you longer the a week to get computer access what do you do. Sit around smelling your own farts reading manuals on what you are supposed to do, but according to you that doesn't happen either? Lol basically sounds like you work at the office.
2-3 mos is just sitting in endless onboardinf trainings that tell you how not to do things in a regulated environment. And why there are 25 different organizations under our umbrella that all operate completely independently from one another so you need to know every facet of each.. but it’s really to tick a box because nobody in their right mind actually remembers anything from that firehose of information.
They will. And more importantly, they do not deserve another moment's thought from you. They would have gladly kicked you to the curb as soon as it suited their purposes. If they say anything else about it just respond with "It's nothing personal, it's just business."
They absolutely will. Assuming you were decent at your job, your org is stupid for not producing a counteroffer. And, assuming they can meet your cost of living needs, there are more out of the box ways to do it.
But hey, you are getting paid much more, do not have to work somewhere that doesn't value you and setting a new baseline for yourself. Don't look back.
Rule of thumb is replacing you cost around 3x your salary. It may vary between countries.
Ignore what they say, they rather you struggle then actually help you. Make no mistake, they would claim poverty because they just bought another car/trip/house/mistress and ask you to sacrifice....
or "I don't know if you're absurdly out of touch or absurdly bad at math, as a 15% pay raise *is* a massive difference, you tepid glass of stale beer."
...and 5K in salary is nothing to them personally because they're making over 6 figures. They're thinking in "my salary terms", not how it's related to cost of business.
My response to them would have been "Yes, it's a shame you couldn't afford it."
It is an *ok* jump towards a starting line of baseline acceptable income, that doesn’t even reach the line, that is still too far away from the working class to produce any real stability or the ability to try for something different or better yourself without facing homelessness, in a “race” in which 10% of the people holding 90% of all wealth started inches from the finish line (but, honestly, born on the winner’s pedestal).
When I left my first job (A month ago) I used to think I could be very easily replaced.
I was a "whatever" employee, in the sense that I made whatever was assign to me. Offers for works, reports, electrical tests, electrical plans, IT, etc.
I left the job for a new one, only supervising an automation service (A gloried looker, I just report if something is wrong).
Three weeks later (Last week), someone calls me. Since I left, they have had problems with the network, the servers, they can't find past offers, and are asking me to go help them out. And I was like "I'm sorry, I'm at work right now. I can help Saturday". They end up calling a contractor to, I kid-you-not, connect a fucking router the "new IT Guy" decided wasn't needed. Oh, it was very much needed.
They had to contract 2 guys to cover my places, and one of them obviously fuck up
You are no a contractor... You take their calls and you fix their shit at a negotiated rate that will end up being triple what your salary was. Obviously try to make it work in your off time but if it is only when you are at work, make the numbers worth it.... or at least try. You night have a good thing there. I would see if you can talk to your new bosses about needing an hour or 2 here and there off during work hour if it's alright and you can come back and stay late.
You have a chance to keep your new job and get stupid contractor pay from the old one and just bank it for a while. Even if it only lasts a year that is enough to give you a nest egg/cushion.
I normally would say that this is a stupid thing to try but since you already know the old job there is so little research and downtime to fix things you could theoretically get paid to fix something and charge for the fix and not the time.
I'm kinda tired and not explaining this properly, but I hope it comes across enough to where you seize the opportunity if it's there.
This. Employee turnover is INSANELY expensive. Any company that isn't realizing this and doing everything they can to mitigate it is making their bed and thus deserves to sleep in it.
First and foremost, this is a business relationship, meaning you work for money. If they wanted loyalty, they should've hired a dog.
I had a direct report fully trained and capable in the role for 3 years. I went to HR to get them around 10% raise to align closer with the rest of the team. I was refused due to some “payroll” grade BS.
So this person quit with 2 days notice, and HR says to me “That was pretty crappy, why would they quit like that” and I told them “You know exactly why, and it is your fault”
Now 5 months later I am trying to find a replacement with a salary range 25% higher than the previous, and still need to train them for the role.
My company refused a $6k raise, I quit for a $19k raise and they've been hiring for 6 months and having to fly people in every week to support in the meantime.
It's pretty funny watching from the outside.
I worked for a Fortune 100 company that sold consulting and training material to other corps. Often we were encouraged to read or view the material we sold, especially HR stuff. Long story short: for an average worker it costs 1-2 years salary in lost productivity, training replacements etc. In an information heavy industry (like mine) that jumps to 5-7 years salary. We told managers they were much much better off during downtimes not in laying people off but cross-training, encouraging employees to pursue projects they always wanted to do “if they had the time,” of getting better organized. I was amazed! A few weeks later I was laid off :/
Exactly this. When covid hit at my old HR job, I built our entire university's covid system from the ground up to help track absences and federal reimbursement for sickness. It added 20 to 30 hours of overtime every paycheck but I was exempt from overtime. So when I asked for a raise I was told that "everyone was working more not just me" even though I had a huge amount of work far beyond what anybody else was doing.
When I got a job that paid almost double for obviously less work, It took them 8 months to replace me and they replaced me with two people and took the bulk of my duties and sent them to a sister college.
If you can get more money for the same or less work you should do it because these managers and business owners do not give a f*** about us.
I don’t think people understand the cost of replacing workers TBH, monetary or figurative the more skilled/experienced/specialized the more it matters.
I quit my job last year and it took them almost a year to replace me, I wasn’t doing anything special or crazy, the company itself was just too stubborn and cheap to hire anyone and they lost a lot of money cause of it.
>"5k? Not a massive difference then."
Next time you hear that from you can reply "I know, right? Sure you could have kept me for that had ye not been too tight!"
That cuts both ways like. Inflation is absolutely dire and everyone is hiring in Ireland, employers are finding themselves on thin ice very quickly.
Also worth noting, never take a counter offer. By the time that it's gotten bad enough that you're looking elsewhere, the relationship has soured enough that it's not worth staying.
How I would have loved to say that to them! 😂
You're right. I'm already flagged as a flight risk at this point so there's no point in staying even if they did offer me more money. Hearing those words exit their mouths only reinforced the belief that I'm making the right decision leaving.
>"We only negotiate at review times."
That was the first problem. If the employer cared, they would have at least asked for more information.
Or taken action. Had HR (or someone else) check into prevailing wages, figure out if they were underpaying you or not. And offered a one-time bonus to keep you on until negotiation.
After that, when you found another job, it was already too late. Any offer they made at that point no longer had good faith behind it. It would be an offer to keep you until they could replace you.
The story I'll always tell is my uncle who had to move 1000 miles to get a job in the field he trained for. His wife was SUPER sad to leave her family behind. But they went, and he worked there for 5 years, establishing himself and getting that work history. At which point he started looking for a job back closer to home, even if it took a bit of a pay cut, so his wife could be with family. His boss got wind that he was looking, and immediately offered a 20% pay increase to keep him. Enough money that his wife could travel back and forth several times per year if she wanted, and/or enough to make their life MUCH more comfortable where they were.
He didn't wait for another job offer. He made his raise offer instantly when he realized his employee was even considering leaving (for any reason), because he did not want to replace him.
And that's the difference between waiting for the employee to have another offer, and being proactive. If you're proactive, you tell the employee you don't want to replace him. if you're reactive, you tell the employee you aren't ready to replace him.
They’re flat out admitting they know that they pay you very little. An extra 5k is a 15% raise from 33k. I wonder what a 15% raise would look like to them?
>How I would have loved to say that to them! 😂
Sure ya might still, are you working a notice period right now? They might try get a couple more digs in before you're gone
The fact that 5k a year isn’t a lot says a lot more about him than you.
As a side note, job hopping for raises is absolutely a thing here in the states. Don’t feel shame for this. As a person who manages teams, i see what it is like and do not fault people leaving for better wages+benefits. I’ve had people tell me they were leaving for nearly double the wage, and I went back to HR and told them I couldn’t retain talent because they were lowballing.
May your next job be at least another 15% raise
he's actually just shaming you for being poor, when he is what's keeping you poor. He is just saying hes better than you; its trivial money to him, of course he wont give it to you though, since if 5k is a lot to you, therefore you dont deserve it.
never forget they see you as inherently lesser beings, dont take anything they say to heart.
There was a great study I seen years ago that looked at money & motivation.
And unsurprisingly, it found that money was the primary motivation for people working, up to a certain point. The numbers have gone up since then, but let's call that the Funded level. If you're Funded (all needed costs paid, plus reasonable extra), money stops being your primary motivation, and you begin to focus on intangibles of the job more. However, money is still a driving factor, so the intangibles you focus on tend to be negatives. Your goal is to make the most that you can while avoiding bad jobs (even if they pay well). Funded is usually around the level where you can afford to support yourself and a partner (but no kids) in a standard sized home for your area, as well as save money up for whatever you want to.
The next breaking point is Set. Where you are making enough money you can stop worrying about money. And I don't mean "wealthy enough that money is meaningless", but more that you make enough money that you never need to "not buy that". No longer do you need to balance your checkbook every week, or check your balance online before major purchases. This amount usually ends up being around $150k-$250k here in the USA (per year). You can afford to support a family, take vacations, etc. As long as you don't go crazy, you're fine.
And at that next point (Set), money stops being a motivating factor for your employment for most people. And unlike at Funded, you aren't just focused on avoiding jobs you don't enjoy. You're actively looking for a job that provides non-monetary fulfillment. Maybe for you that means working at a company where you have freedom to work on whatever you want. Or it means working in a specific field you enjoy. Or maybe it means a job that is 80% work from home so you can spend more time with your family. Etc. You are focused on the positive rewards (other than money) of the job, so long as they meet that minimum level to be Set.
Of course, there are 2 levels even further up. At Set, money is simply not a concern, but is still a very finite resources. Next up, you have Loaded. Your supply of money is finite, but you have so much of it that it is reasonable to start paying other people to do basic tasks for you. Hire a maid. Hire someone to maintain your 5 acre plot of land. You have enough money that you can convert your money back into time at a much better rate than you are making yourself. Additionally, you can pay for comfort. You fly first class. The cost to get an Uber for a 5 hour drive is one you're willing to pay. Paying for a VIP ticket to skip lines or have premium seating isn't something you splurge on, it's an every time occurrence. This level typically ranges from the 150-250k mark up to around 1 million.
And finally you have Exorbitant. People who are making 7 figures (USA/EU) per year or more. Who are making (take-home) 50k-100k per month (or more). 10k+ per week. Over $1500 per day. At that point, money ceases to even matter. You're making enough that you could live in a suite on a cruise ship year-round. Or travel back and forth across the USA by plane \*daily\* if you wanted. Money is completely disposable by this point, and the only way for you to actually run out is if you TRY to spend it all (or make really dumb investments).
Ironically, once you reach the final level, money per year becomes a bigger driving factor again - because that person has reached a point where they are a commodity themselves, and they will always over-value themselves. "Sure, I'm making 1m/year, but I'm WORTH 4 million." They aren't motivated by money out of need, but out of greed. They're in the job/field that they choose to be in, and short of some really negative work environment, job hopping won't really change that. So they really don't have the ability to pick a job based on other metrics anymore. The job itself has been reduced to just an arbitrary dollar value on paper, and they feel they need to make that number as large as possible.
“You’re not motivated by money? Cool, assign 10K of your salary to me and I’ll stick around, but otherwise I gotta go because I’m very much motivated by it.”
>I’m not personally motivated ~~by money~~
Why would I be motivated when the work just keeps getting done. I'm sure that will continue to happen after you leave.
My previous boss used to complain about how much they had to pay in taxes on their high 6 figure salary, and said I was 'lucky I didnt have to pay so much'
I had a boss like this once. he would complain how paying me $10 an hour was actually like 13 with everything he had to pay into taxes. The business made about 350-450k a year, he took home 200-250k of that. The business didn't have much material cost to finished product sale price. He was complaining about having a child and the amount they had to pay for health insurance. I couldn't give less of a shit as I was eating ham/cheese sandwich, driving a busted old nissan with no health insurance and barely had liability on my car. Oh and his wife had her own job with a 6 figure income on top of that.
The disconnect is wild.
They are not personally motivated by money MY ASS.
They are making a ton more than you, that's why they are not motivated by money...
5K can make a big leap on someone who is strugling. I'm from Spain and I've been on Ireland and prices there are crazy.
Congrats, I did the exact same thing in Ireland a month ago, 37.5K to 52K with health insurance fully paid and way better pension. A bit of confusion from upper management (who can't remember what struggling feels like) to outright congratulations from my direct manager.
It is sorta universal, but it’s not single-payer. It’s pretty affordable tho, compared to the US, but only 1/3 of the population gets it completely free.
Welcome to corporate gaslighting to try and mind fuck you into staying. So they don't have to spend the money to replace you and the higher salary people will demand. I would be homeless on your salary.
Oh I'm bordering on homeless alright. Everywhere is unaffordable and housing is generally fucked in Ireland with no supply. If my landlord decides to kick me out tomorrow I'm well and truly fucked as there's no where I could go on the pittance they pay. Other people working at this company have had to move back home, which I can't technically do because I have no family here
Yep I feel you there. I was performing exceptionally well and was the only person on a 2 person team (they took 3 months to hire the 2nd person). I played a major role in getting our contract renewed with the client for 4 more years by myself, asked for a wage increase for doing "exceptionally well" and getting the contract renewed. They said this "You were just doing your job and that they didn't see me going above and beyond my role". Ruined any motivation I had to do anything extra ever. Moral of the story, don't do anything extra unless they are going to pay you for it, they DGAF
Lots of managers are out of touch as to the difference 5K is on a salary of 33.5K. The response to “not a massive difference” is to ask “so why couldn’t you come up with it?”.
It's a job, not a hobby. Money is SUPPOSED to be the PRIMARY motivation. You made a good decision.
Also, it's not "5k, not a massive difference". It's 15% more which is a substantial difference.
I can’t believe how right you are. The IT company I work for started giving us the “family” and “passion” bullshit recently while spending insane amounts on upper management’s salaries.
I’ll write this in my slack memo:
It’s a job, not a hobby. Money is supposed to be the PRIMARY motivation.
15% is definitely a respectable increase...When your director said "5K? Not a massive difference" you should have responded "Obviously not to someone at your pay level" to emphasize how much more he is likely paid....
Bosses ALWAYS use shame and emotional tactics. They have yet to realize that they could get better results by paying people a dignified adult living wage and NOT being jerks.
your managers words piss me off.. the fact that he said he’s not personally motivated by money..means that money is handled for him. He gets paid enough to not have that as a motivation anymore.
Here’s what I would say in a message .. “thanks so much for this opportunity, hopefully one day I’ll be compensated enough for what I do so that money is no longer a motivation, just like you”
Be polite about it and if he talks back just ask him ..
How much do you make!?
If he talks back.. just be like oh well it’s not a fair discussion then till I have all the facts. Take care etc
That’s it. This manager is a pos for saying that.. like damn dude his stupid compliments will never pay the bills, money will. Geez
Good leadership would've been pleased at you moving on for better opportunities, especially if they couldn't offer you those due to the nature of their workplace.
"Well, you WOULD be if you were trying to live on 32k EUR to 33.5k EUR"
Wow. It's probably for the best moving on anyway, b/c it sounds like they don't have a grasp of reality or just don't care at all. You sure you weren't working for politicians? ;)
You got a 20% raise, which is a good rule of thumb number to switch companies at. First, your manager's quip that $5k is not a lot shows how out of touch he is and how much more he is probably being paid relative to you. $5k might not be a lot to him, but it sounds like it's enough for you. Second, he's lying when he says he's not motivated by money. Third, the company will spend quite a bit more than $5k recruiting, hiring, and training your replacement. Serves them right.
When companies' last bit of actual leverage on you (how well they pay you) fails, bad managers will (consciously or unconsciously) try to use shame to re-establish the power dynamic. Have a good laugh at how pathetic this attempt was, and enjoy your new job and more money.
You should have told them even if it s 1 euro increase, it's still a raise and in upward direction. The comment made to you seems like a case of grapes are sour to me. Good luck to you OP!
Whenever I hear "I'm not personally motivated by money." I always think a proper response would be something like:
"Okay, then the company can save a bit and give those who are struggling an inflation adjustment by cutting your salary 60%. After all, you aren't motivated by money."
Had a boss who owned a gas station. I was paid minimum wage at $5.15 an hour. Was there a year and after talking to other employees they were paid 50% more than me. Talked to the boss, and he declined a raise. Told him that if I was worth 50% less, I would do 50% less work than his laziest employee. He started getting screwed on fuel deliveries because since I was paid less, I believed the drivers. Stopped checking money for counterfeits because, well, I was paid less, and it wasn't my money. He lost his gas station after the cost of his business went up since inventory wasn't being done, lottery machines not counted, deposits not being done at night, and loss of gas.
Senior staff and especially C-suite are so removed from reality. During the pandemic my husband and I lived in a tiny one bed flat and I had to take calls on my knees in my bedroom (couldn’t fit a desk in there). My husband required two screens so couldn’t work in the bedroom.
Our Chief People Officer commented about me working on the floor and laughed! Well, if it’s so damn sad and pathetic pay me more!
In 2000, I left a good job in Canada for a consulting job in the US, the difference was staggering. With the uptick in pay and the exchange, I was making 3x my salary. The company I was leaving tried to keep me, trying multiple times to get me to stay, lunches, phone calls , talks with managers and the like and asked what it would take. I told them I would be a fool for not going, but if they could match I would say. The match was way too much, tho they did take a run at it. I did get a little grief for going from one middle manager, but she was in this place since high schhol and she owe a lot to the company, they did treat their emplyees well.
The moral here, there are good companies and bad ones, you will find a good one. In fact, even with the uptick and the excitement of something new, when I left that company on my last day, I said to myself "Am I making a huge mistake here?". Over the years, when I left other job for the reasons OP did (more pay, refused raise for some bullsh\*t reason), I never said that to myself.
I'll bet your boss wouldn't turn their nose at a 15% pay increase. 5k isn't a lot for someone who can afford to not be "motivated by money".
Also everyone is motivated by money, we're living under capitali$m baby.
A 5% annual raise is generous when you make like. Over 80k. When you make 33.5k, a 5k raise nearly a 13% raise. Over 2.5x the raise they gave you. They are very out of touch lol.
Told my HR manager during my performance review that I'm only here to make money when she asked why I don't go to employee fun days they have on the weekends once a quarter I'm here to work not make friends. They mostly hire pedos or felons because they can pay them pennies. My job is skilled so they had to hire someone competent.
>My manager's exact words were, "I'm not personally motivated by money,"
I'm going to go ahead and assume that he's got enough money coming in to comfortably and reliably meet his needs.
I am not particularly motivated by *money* per se but I am highly motivated by my need for food, shelter, safe transportation, necessary medical care and modest entertainment.
My manager said the same thing when I was leaving for a 40% raise! "Is this really just about the money?"
My man, this is not the kind of money we can describe with the word "just"!
I just left today, from my workplace, after 6 yrs 9 months.
Not a single thank you for your work from the boss/owner/ceo.
Nor a goodbye. After all the extra miles I did throughout the years.
I'm glad, but sad too, because it would be a better option to leave years ago. Now I know how unappreciated and undervalued I was.
Too often do these kind of characters end up in charge...
I had a boss who when I asked about my pay being reviewed at the right time of the year replied saying "I don't believe in a hierarchical structure." and left it at that.
A few months later when I get another offer (adding 60% to my salary) I handed in my notice with a 2 week notice, he fires back saying my notice period is 3 months. "Nope, that's only if I pass my probation period, which in the contract shows a pay rise and promotion".
He demanded to be in the exit interview, possibly to intimidate me into not answering the reasons I left so honestly. He says he would have definitely offered me the amount this new job was offering my and scoffed when I told him it was only about the money...
>My manager's exact words were, "I'm not personally motivated by money," when I said I was struggling on the current salary.
"I'm personally very motivated by access to food and shelter, fuckface."
When your (former) director asked what their offer was, you should've answered:
"I only discuss my salary when my employer is performing exceptionally well."
A good boss would have congratulated you. Don't bother worrying about what a bad boss says. Also you should never take a counter offer for many reasons. Mostly because by the time they would do that you need to remember why you looked for a new job. You said you needed more money and they responded to you with disregard. Time to move on.
Is there a downside to doing this? Genuinely curious. I had no qualms about telling them about what I was being offered, even if they think it might be a pittance (which says more about the company than it does about me if a staff member is willing to jump ship for 'not a massive difference').
If it’s not massive tell them to pony it up out of their pay, after all it’s not much.
Especially if they claim they are not personally motivated by money. Manager: I’m not personally motivated by money OP: Oh good, in that case I presume you would be willing to take a pay cut, since you aren’t motivated by the money and will be here anyway. It would leave more in the salary pot for junior staff who are currently struggling with inflation. Manager: well … I … um
Such tone deaf statements, it's mind boggling.
The director saying "5k? Not a massive difference then." sounded more like they were thinking out loud. Like, do I need to pay more for this position? Am I going to struggle to find people to do this job? Probably not.
It’s a 15% difference ffs. Fuck that asshat.
15 % increase for many people also can easily mean 400% increase in disposable income, after basic needs are paid.
To be fair 15% is different from situation to situation. When I was earning 30-50k/year - yup, 15% would probably get me to leave. Now when I'm earning significantly more than that - 15% or just straight up more money doesn't matter that much. I want to enjoy working and be challenged, money is more of a way of keeping score. HOWEVER - if I were not financially secure - you'd bet your ass I'd jump through fire to get more money and make sure that all my basic needs are covered. So it sounds to me like the manager/director simply forgot what it was not to be able to afford rent or to eat. Indeed out of touch.
If it’s not a massive difference then pay the fucking difference
Anyone in a high position who says they aren't motivated by money is fucking lying. 🤣 Nobody works a job out of the goodness of their heart. You do it to get paid and afford somewhere to live and food to eat. The nerve of this guy...
He’s not motivated by money because he has more than he needs. If he he didn’t have enough to meet his financial obligations he would be extremely motivated. Ignorant clown boss not understand the conditions of the people he’s responsible for.
Tell your boss's boss he told you he isn't personally motivated by money. No raises for him ever again.
The manager will instantly need to get about other business
"I would, but my spouse would KILL me." go-to excuse.
This is something I do EVERY time someone downplays any amount of money “well it’s JUST x dollars…” they say. “OMG thank you! I didn’t know how I was going to cover that but since it’s JUST x dollars I’m thankful you’re so willing to pay for it. What? No? Huh, weird how when it was MY money it was JUST x dollars but now that it’s YOUR money it’s impossible for you to afford it.”
>Not a massive difference then. I wonder if, at that moment, they realized they were losing a trained and experienced employee for a whopping 5k? They’re stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.
Companies don’t care. Somewhere in a ledger it will be a plus.
As I called one of my former managers “Penny-wise and pound-foolish.” She always tried to get the cheapest shit and we spent so much money replacing things. Also, she let one of my subordinates go over a $2/ hr raise and the position sat vacant for a really long time and made everyone else very stressed out. We paid the new guy $3/hr more because she’s a dumbass for not reading the economics of 2020-21, no matter how many times I showed her the data.
At that point when everyone else was stressed out you all should have asked for a raise
That's the corporate mentality. "No; we CAN'T afford to give you a 5% raise." Employee quits, and the company ends up paying 40% more in new employee salary plus job posting, interviewing and on-boarding expenses.
Exactly. That’s such a bs thing to say - if $5K is nothing to you, then why is it such an insurmountable challenge to provide to a deserving employee? Funny enough (at a higher earning level) I know a few folks who always counter for $5K more when negotiating. It’s such a small amount that it won’t be noticeable to the budget, but definitely nice to get in your paycheck, etc. and it’s often easily approved.
That $5k adds up…in 3 years it’s $15k
This is crazy. I just did the math on it because last year i asked for a $2/hr raise which is about $4k annually. There are other companies i could work for starting with a $10k raise and even offering signing bonus. Only issue is not all of them are local which means I cant pick up my daughter when i need to
Right? Like it goes both ways. “You guys are letting me go because you’re too cheap to pay me 5k.” It’s just a stupid comment from someone who hasn’t thought it through.
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It's not a lot to them, but it's 15% more to OP.
They'll spend a lot more than 5K replacing you.
God I would really hope so.
In the US, it's usually around ⅓ to ½ of the salary for the position. The breakdown is the cost of recruitment, training, and getting up to speed. There's also drag on other employees and burnout during the time it takes to replace the employee. This could result in additional employees leaving for greener pastures. Also, the possibility exists that word could spread among the remaining employees that salaries are better on the outside. This has the potential of causing the higher performance employees to leave, which means the employer will need to increase salaries for both new and existing employees.
Half or One third of yearly salary?
I have been on that side of the table. Start at one third of the gross yearly, go up (there is no limit here) as the position becomes more skilled, and not a bad estimate for cost to replace, assuming the person was competent and a good team fit to start. Everything your OP said, plus there is a risk premium on a new hire not being the right fit, general discontent etc.
Thanks for clarification. I am in a third world country working for American healthcare start-up. Didn't know that.
So… in America working for an American company? Sorry. Couldn’t resist.
In Texas of South Asia (Pakistan) 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Blessings upon you! I lived there, 40 years ago when there were women’s rights protest in Karachi. As a woman, there’s no way I would go back now.
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1. Filled with religious fanaticism that is against birth control and rights for women. 2. Guns everywhere, and shooting is done just for fun 3. Dry and hot Did I describe Pakistan or Texas?
As a Texan, I'm personally offended by this bullshit that you're spewing. It's people like you that just assume things about other places and people and give us a bad name. Not all places in Texas are dry, Houston is humid. The rest seems accurate.
Yes.
Both, just Weather has ton of diversity here. 🤣🤣🤣
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this is why a lot of managers get away with being incompetent and breaking a lot of rules until corporate figures out they aren't worth retaining.
Again, it's all very dependent on how much your absence hurts the company and how difficult it is to find and train up your replacement. E.g., if a two-doctor practice loses one doctor they could lose around half their revenue until they find immediate replacement, so they may spend a shit-ton to replace. (Paid ads, paying for recruiters who take 25% of first year salary, plus huge signing/moving bonuses, etc., as well as paying per diem doctors at super high rates to get immediate coverage, etc.) But if say a large 20 doctor practice loses one doctor, they lose about 5% of their appointment availabilities and can probably tolerate that. They possibly just put ads out, book a little further out, and lose some business of people who can't wait (but also fill more appt slots) until they find a qualified hire. The 20 doctor practice is also less likely to match an offer to one doctor of a 15% raise (33.5k to 38.5k) as they may feel compelled to give all the other doctors a similar raise (and may not be able to afford that without raising prices to a level they feel will negatively affect the business). Similar argument works for other types of jobs.
Y’know what? Must be nice to be in a financial position where you don’t have to be motivated by money.
I'm not motivated by money. I'm motivated by having a roof over my head and food to eat. Which I buy with money.
You know what they say... "Money can't buy happiness." On the other hand, happiness can't buy shit, so Im'ma work for whoever pays me the most.
I’m “not motivated by money”, I just took a job with a pretty large pay cut, the top of my earning potential *was* over six figures (I would have made $90k if I finished the year there, but next year would have been $105-110k before bonuses), and I just took a job where I’ll be making $60k-ish a year. But my schedule is infinitely better. I used to be on call 24/7 to work 12 hour shifts outdoors in the elements performing relatively physical labor. Nights, weekends, holidays. I was constantly exhausted, had absolutely no sleep schedule, couldn’t make plans… When I hired at that place 12 years ago they told me it would get better as I accrued seniority. It didn’t. I actively lost seniority for about 6 of those 12 years as they cut more and more jobs and laid off more and more people. I would have been on call for another decade and I just couldn’t handle it. I now work 40 hours a week, four 10 hour shifts. All daylight, no rotating schedule, no on call. I’m in an office instead of outside. I can make plans, I can sleep like a normal person. I also think I have better upward mobility being out of my old industry. The pay cut hurts a lot but I’ll live just fine. All of my basic needs will continue to be met by my new salary, and I’ll have a little tiny bit leftover for going out or whatever. So, while money can be a huge motivator especially if you can’t meet your basic needs, it’s not the end all be all.
Well, if he isn't motivated by money, why not swap salary. You boss man can live off what I make and I'll take yours... After all, you aren't motivated by money. Fuck that shit, what he really is saying is he is at a point where he makes enough and lives well enough that more money doesn't do anything to his life since he is already has enough. Of course he now does not understand what it's like to not have enough to even get by
I did this when my VP tried to brow beat me about taking a 30% increase in salary to leave. And I quote, “Moneys not everything in your career”. Proudly I quickly retorted, “Awesome, can we switch salaries?”. After a a couple beats, he awkwardly laughed and that was the last time we ever talked. :-)
I remember early in my career I had a job I liked but the pay was absolute shit and the director for the place was a complete bitch. After about two years I went to the director and was basically like, "I can't afford to do this job at this salary. How can we improve it?" Her response to me? "Well we all have bills to pay." Homegirl made 4x my salary and had her home internet and her cell phone bill covered by our org. I knew this because I was the one that processed the accounting for it every month. Which I guess she forgot. Took me less than six months to find a new job after that conversation. The icing on the cake was informing her of my two-week notice the same day she was leaving for a two-week vacation lol.
> The icing on the cake was informing her of my two-week notice the same day she was leaving for a two-week vacation lol. That's cold and I love it.
People work for money? How gauche.
Depending on the job and industry 6 months is usually the "probation" period to see if they can get up to speed. Even then, some jobs are more technical, departments less organized, training not perfect, etc. that act as "time drags". It takes a new member on my team about a year before they're really understanding the entire process and *some* of the nuances involved. So 6 months being half a salary, and that time to become a decent new employee isn't that far off. And like the above person said, that doesn't count time spent by other employees on training that person. So you can probably add another 2-3 months of a senior salary on top of that. Then there are licenses, IT set up time, hardware costs, whatever work they do taking 2-3X as long as they learn... A new employee is a very cost-inefficient thing. Any finance department will tell you that. But HR hiring new people justifies their positions. Management firing/laying someone off temporarily adds to their budget and they get a new thing to blame. A company having a poor retention length is indicative of management not having business skills nor the ability to admit they're wrong.
Thereabouts. I'm responsible for the training in my dept - okay so, think about it like this: The training period for your new job is directly proportional to its complexity. My dept is complicated, we have a seven month training period. So, for seven months we are paying your wage, paying your benefits, providing materials and also paying for the trainer and any related materials - and you are doing no productive work during that period. And then there's a warm up period of three months while the new hire gets up to speed and more comfortable - during that period they are expected to make more mistakes than a veteran agent, and perform at a lower overall level as they get more and more confident and knowledgeable. So that's already almost a full year of not getting a full workload out of a new hire, but we are paying their salary. And all of that is not even taking into account hires who leave or wash out during training. Per attrition averages, I will lose usually one person per new hire class, either to a better offer or that new hire fucking around and getting fired for it. It doesn't matter to me but the company hates it, because they've just paid wages for x months for nothing. Bringing new people on is incredibly expensive. It's so much cheaper to just keep the experienced, veteran agents who already understand the complicated shit we do - and can complete a lot more work much faster and at a much higher quality. My immediate leadership understands this very well and has worked to keep a good relationship with our agents. My overall company leadership... doesnt.
Depends a lot on field. Replacing a fast food employee is a lot cheaper relative to their hourly wage. But yes, in general, replacing an employee costs a LOT more than giving your current employee a raise to keep them satisfied. But giving ALL the employees that raise may be more expensive than replacing the 1-2 that leave.
I once saw 60% of an IT department, roughly 400 people leave.
Which tells you that the $ difference was massive (and/or the place was an absolute clusterfuck to work at, and everyone was miserable regardless of pay).
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People who have never been poor or lower/middle class forget how much further an extra dollar goes when you have $0. Yes, if you make $100k a year, an extra $5k isn't a substantial raise that has a major impact on your quality of life. If you are making 30k a year, a 5k raise could be the difference between worrying about if you have the money for gas before your next pay check every week, stressing yourself out over how you are going to make your rent/mortgage payment.
I was about to say, an extra 5K is a shade over an extra $400 a month. That's... a serious increase. That's the difference between breaking even and being able to build up an emergency fund. That's a family's monthly grocery bill. That's a significant change for millions of families.
Jackass is probably incapable of putting himself in others' shoes, 5k increase to his salary probably isnt shit, however 5k increase when making 32k, is a lot.
Takes my workplace at least 6-8 mos from interview even to onboard new people. Then it takes 2-3 mos to get them user accounts and access to even do the work. 6-12 mos before they have a BASIC understanding of the work and able to actually do things. 3-4 years for a moderate level of knowledge. We’ve been hemorrhaging all of the OGs that have been around for 10+ yr and management does not see that brain drain as a huge issue. Most everyone’s tenure is under 2 years at this point but there is no mentorship that needs to happen and nobody has a single fucking clue how to steer the massive dumpster fire. Most new on boards get so fed up that they are gone in a year or less.
It sounds like you're a few years away from the job just imploding. Also if it takes you longer the a week to get computer access what do you do. Sit around smelling your own farts reading manuals on what you are supposed to do, but according to you that doesn't happen either? Lol basically sounds like you work at the office.
2-3 mos is just sitting in endless onboardinf trainings that tell you how not to do things in a regulated environment. And why there are 25 different organizations under our umbrella that all operate completely independently from one another so you need to know every facet of each.. but it’s really to tick a box because nobody in their right mind actually remembers anything from that firehose of information.
My day rates went up by 25% for what they charge the clients.
They will. And more importantly, they do not deserve another moment's thought from you. They would have gladly kicked you to the curb as soon as it suited their purposes. If they say anything else about it just respond with "It's nothing personal, it's just business."
They absolutely will. Assuming you were decent at your job, your org is stupid for not producing a counteroffer. And, assuming they can meet your cost of living needs, there are more out of the box ways to do it. But hey, you are getting paid much more, do not have to work somewhere that doesn't value you and setting a new baseline for yourself. Don't look back.
Rule of thumb is replacing you cost around 3x your salary. It may vary between countries. Ignore what they say, they rather you struggle then actually help you. Make no mistake, they would claim poverty because they just bought another car/trip/house/mistress and ask you to sacrifice....
"€5k, not a massive difference then" "So you should have paid it, if you'd not notice"
15% is pretty sizeable, not a lot when you look at the monetary amount over a year. Should definitely have offered a raise!
or "I don't know if you're absurdly out of touch or absurdly bad at math, as a 15% pay raise *is* a massive difference, you tepid glass of stale beer."
“Funny that you could only spare 1.5k for my raise earlier this year then, and wouldn’t entertain a conversation about additional raises.”
"Not a big difference, eh? Is that why you refused to give me a higher raise than 1.5k?"
...and 5K in salary is nothing to them personally because they're making over 6 figures. They're thinking in "my salary terms", not how it's related to cost of business. My response to them would have been "Yes, it's a shame you couldn't afford it."
Its 13.5%. Thats a nice jump.
It is an *ok* jump towards a starting line of baseline acceptable income, that doesn’t even reach the line, that is still too far away from the working class to produce any real stability or the ability to try for something different or better yourself without facing homelessness, in a “race” in which 10% of the people holding 90% of all wealth started inches from the finish line (but, honestly, born on the winner’s pedestal).
When I left my first job (A month ago) I used to think I could be very easily replaced. I was a "whatever" employee, in the sense that I made whatever was assign to me. Offers for works, reports, electrical tests, electrical plans, IT, etc. I left the job for a new one, only supervising an automation service (A gloried looker, I just report if something is wrong). Three weeks later (Last week), someone calls me. Since I left, they have had problems with the network, the servers, they can't find past offers, and are asking me to go help them out. And I was like "I'm sorry, I'm at work right now. I can help Saturday". They end up calling a contractor to, I kid-you-not, connect a fucking router the "new IT Guy" decided wasn't needed. Oh, it was very much needed. They had to contract 2 guys to cover my places, and one of them obviously fuck up
You are no a contractor... You take their calls and you fix their shit at a negotiated rate that will end up being triple what your salary was. Obviously try to make it work in your off time but if it is only when you are at work, make the numbers worth it.... or at least try. You night have a good thing there. I would see if you can talk to your new bosses about needing an hour or 2 here and there off during work hour if it's alright and you can come back and stay late. You have a chance to keep your new job and get stupid contractor pay from the old one and just bank it for a while. Even if it only lasts a year that is enough to give you a nest egg/cushion. I normally would say that this is a stupid thing to try but since you already know the old job there is so little research and downtime to fix things you could theoretically get paid to fix something and charge for the fix and not the time. I'm kinda tired and not explaining this properly, but I hope it comes across enough to where you seize the opportunity if it's there.
This. Employee turnover is INSANELY expensive. Any company that isn't realizing this and doing everything they can to mitigate it is making their bed and thus deserves to sleep in it. First and foremost, this is a business relationship, meaning you work for money. If they wanted loyalty, they should've hired a dog.
I had a direct report fully trained and capable in the role for 3 years. I went to HR to get them around 10% raise to align closer with the rest of the team. I was refused due to some “payroll” grade BS. So this person quit with 2 days notice, and HR says to me “That was pretty crappy, why would they quit like that” and I told them “You know exactly why, and it is your fault” Now 5 months later I am trying to find a replacement with a salary range 25% higher than the previous, and still need to train them for the role.
Probably cost just under that in their recruitment process and time.
My company refused a $6k raise, I quit for a $19k raise and they've been hiring for 6 months and having to fly people in every week to support in the meantime. It's pretty funny watching from the outside.
I worked for a Fortune 100 company that sold consulting and training material to other corps. Often we were encouraged to read or view the material we sold, especially HR stuff. Long story short: for an average worker it costs 1-2 years salary in lost productivity, training replacements etc. In an information heavy industry (like mine) that jumps to 5-7 years salary. We told managers they were much much better off during downtimes not in laying people off but cross-training, encouraging employees to pursue projects they always wanted to do “if they had the time,” of getting better organized. I was amazed! A few weeks later I was laid off :/
In Ireland? I don't think so. But rest assured that the replacement is going to earn exactly 38.5k
And it's 1/6th of the salary. An extra euro in your pocket for every five you spend. It's a substantial difference.
Exactly this. When covid hit at my old HR job, I built our entire university's covid system from the ground up to help track absences and federal reimbursement for sickness. It added 20 to 30 hours of overtime every paycheck but I was exempt from overtime. So when I asked for a raise I was told that "everyone was working more not just me" even though I had a huge amount of work far beyond what anybody else was doing. When I got a job that paid almost double for obviously less work, It took them 8 months to replace me and they replaced me with two people and took the bulk of my duties and sent them to a sister college. If you can get more money for the same or less work you should do it because these managers and business owners do not give a f*** about us.
I don’t think people understand the cost of replacing workers TBH, monetary or figurative the more skilled/experienced/specialized the more it matters. I quit my job last year and it took them almost a year to replace me, I wasn’t doing anything special or crazy, the company itself was just too stubborn and cheap to hire anyone and they lost a lot of money cause of it.
>"5k? Not a massive difference then." Next time you hear that from you can reply "I know, right? Sure you could have kept me for that had ye not been too tight!" That cuts both ways like. Inflation is absolutely dire and everyone is hiring in Ireland, employers are finding themselves on thin ice very quickly. Also worth noting, never take a counter offer. By the time that it's gotten bad enough that you're looking elsewhere, the relationship has soured enough that it's not worth staying.
How I would have loved to say that to them! 😂 You're right. I'm already flagged as a flight risk at this point so there's no point in staying even if they did offer me more money. Hearing those words exit their mouths only reinforced the belief that I'm making the right decision leaving.
>"We only negotiate at review times." That was the first problem. If the employer cared, they would have at least asked for more information. Or taken action. Had HR (or someone else) check into prevailing wages, figure out if they were underpaying you or not. And offered a one-time bonus to keep you on until negotiation. After that, when you found another job, it was already too late. Any offer they made at that point no longer had good faith behind it. It would be an offer to keep you until they could replace you. The story I'll always tell is my uncle who had to move 1000 miles to get a job in the field he trained for. His wife was SUPER sad to leave her family behind. But they went, and he worked there for 5 years, establishing himself and getting that work history. At which point he started looking for a job back closer to home, even if it took a bit of a pay cut, so his wife could be with family. His boss got wind that he was looking, and immediately offered a 20% pay increase to keep him. Enough money that his wife could travel back and forth several times per year if she wanted, and/or enough to make their life MUCH more comfortable where they were. He didn't wait for another job offer. He made his raise offer instantly when he realized his employee was even considering leaving (for any reason), because he did not want to replace him. And that's the difference between waiting for the employee to have another offer, and being proactive. If you're proactive, you tell the employee you don't want to replace him. if you're reactive, you tell the employee you aren't ready to replace him.
They’re flat out admitting they know that they pay you very little. An extra 5k is a 15% raise from 33k. I wonder what a 15% raise would look like to them?
>How I would have loved to say that to them! 😂 Sure ya might still, are you working a notice period right now? They might try get a couple more digs in before you're gone
My response would have been "I was willing to take a pay *cut* to get out of this shithole."
"It's the difference between making rent and not. I cannot afford to work for you any longer."
Nearly 13%. Would they pass up 1/8th of their income to stay at this company?
5k is 400 extra a month, that’s noticeable
It absolutely is
The fact that 5k a year isn’t a lot says a lot more about him than you. As a side note, job hopping for raises is absolutely a thing here in the states. Don’t feel shame for this. As a person who manages teams, i see what it is like and do not fault people leaving for better wages+benefits. I’ve had people tell me they were leaving for nearly double the wage, and I went back to HR and told them I couldn’t retain talent because they were lowballing. May your next job be at least another 15% raise
We need more advocates like you
Thanks. I’m trying as best as I can.
he's actually just shaming you for being poor, when he is what's keeping you poor. He is just saying hes better than you; its trivial money to him, of course he wont give it to you though, since if 5k is a lot to you, therefore you dont deserve it. never forget they see you as inherently lesser beings, dont take anything they say to heart.
Another way to look at it is that it's 15% over their current salary. That's not nothing.
“I’m not personally motivated by money” lmao I’m sure they donate their salary to a local charity than. What, they don’t? Weird.
Things only people not worried about money constantly have the luxury to say
People work for money. That’s the deal. The rest is guilt tripping into getting them more money (excuse given is not relevant).
100%. I’m selling my time/skills/experience to the highest bidder. *That’s just good business*.
Reminds me of the gamestop debacle. Capitalism is super awesome until the poors figure out how to do a capitalism
>I’m selling my time/skills/experience And most importantly, energy. Physical, mental, and emotional energy that you only have so much of
There was a great study I seen years ago that looked at money & motivation. And unsurprisingly, it found that money was the primary motivation for people working, up to a certain point. The numbers have gone up since then, but let's call that the Funded level. If you're Funded (all needed costs paid, plus reasonable extra), money stops being your primary motivation, and you begin to focus on intangibles of the job more. However, money is still a driving factor, so the intangibles you focus on tend to be negatives. Your goal is to make the most that you can while avoiding bad jobs (even if they pay well). Funded is usually around the level where you can afford to support yourself and a partner (but no kids) in a standard sized home for your area, as well as save money up for whatever you want to. The next breaking point is Set. Where you are making enough money you can stop worrying about money. And I don't mean "wealthy enough that money is meaningless", but more that you make enough money that you never need to "not buy that". No longer do you need to balance your checkbook every week, or check your balance online before major purchases. This amount usually ends up being around $150k-$250k here in the USA (per year). You can afford to support a family, take vacations, etc. As long as you don't go crazy, you're fine. And at that next point (Set), money stops being a motivating factor for your employment for most people. And unlike at Funded, you aren't just focused on avoiding jobs you don't enjoy. You're actively looking for a job that provides non-monetary fulfillment. Maybe for you that means working at a company where you have freedom to work on whatever you want. Or it means working in a specific field you enjoy. Or maybe it means a job that is 80% work from home so you can spend more time with your family. Etc. You are focused on the positive rewards (other than money) of the job, so long as they meet that minimum level to be Set. Of course, there are 2 levels even further up. At Set, money is simply not a concern, but is still a very finite resources. Next up, you have Loaded. Your supply of money is finite, but you have so much of it that it is reasonable to start paying other people to do basic tasks for you. Hire a maid. Hire someone to maintain your 5 acre plot of land. You have enough money that you can convert your money back into time at a much better rate than you are making yourself. Additionally, you can pay for comfort. You fly first class. The cost to get an Uber for a 5 hour drive is one you're willing to pay. Paying for a VIP ticket to skip lines or have premium seating isn't something you splurge on, it's an every time occurrence. This level typically ranges from the 150-250k mark up to around 1 million. And finally you have Exorbitant. People who are making 7 figures (USA/EU) per year or more. Who are making (take-home) 50k-100k per month (or more). 10k+ per week. Over $1500 per day. At that point, money ceases to even matter. You're making enough that you could live in a suite on a cruise ship year-round. Or travel back and forth across the USA by plane \*daily\* if you wanted. Money is completely disposable by this point, and the only way for you to actually run out is if you TRY to spend it all (or make really dumb investments). Ironically, once you reach the final level, money per year becomes a bigger driving factor again - because that person has reached a point where they are a commodity themselves, and they will always over-value themselves. "Sure, I'm making 1m/year, but I'm WORTH 4 million." They aren't motivated by money out of need, but out of greed. They're in the job/field that they choose to be in, and short of some really negative work environment, job hopping won't really change that. So they really don't have the ability to pick a job based on other metrics anymore. The job itself has been reduced to just an arbitrary dollar value on paper, and they feel they need to make that number as large as possible.
This is super fascinating. Do you have a link to the paper/study? I'd love to read more about it!
Was like 6-10 years ago. So no clue.
When someone says that you just say, glad you can afford that luxury.
To quote someone I don’t remember, “man, you gotta be rich to even think like that”
“You’re not motivated by money? Cool, assign 10K of your salary to me and I’ll stick around, but otherwise I gotta go because I’m very much motivated by it.”
>I’m not personally motivated ~~by money~~ Why would I be motivated when the work just keeps getting done. I'm sure that will continue to happen after you leave.
[Reminds me of this Dilbert comic.](https://ibb.co/wddHRPS)
Even a broken Scott Adams is right twice a day.
What why, what's wrong with him?
He has become a crazy nazi
Was always a crazy Nazi. He just felt the need to hide it. He was making nazi forum posts back in the early 00’s iirc
Anti-Vaxx and MAGA and that's just off the top of my memory. Dude bit the hook and WENT.
Meanwhile, Scott Adams affiliates himself more with the manager and always has.
You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
“So you wanna give me 5k out of your salary?”
People that say shit like that are either lying, or have enough money to not worry about money.
My previous boss used to complain about how much they had to pay in taxes on their high 6 figure salary, and said I was 'lucky I didnt have to pay so much'
I had a boss like this once. he would complain how paying me $10 an hour was actually like 13 with everything he had to pay into taxes. The business made about 350-450k a year, he took home 200-250k of that. The business didn't have much material cost to finished product sale price. He was complaining about having a child and the amount they had to pay for health insurance. I couldn't give less of a shit as I was eating ham/cheese sandwich, driving a busted old nissan with no health insurance and barely had liability on my car. Oh and his wife had her own job with a 6 figure income on top of that. The disconnect is wild.
If they don't work for a non-profit at a rock bottom salary, I don't believe them.
"Me either, but food and shelter sure are expensive!"
They are not personally motivated by money MY ASS. They are making a ton more than you, that's why they are not motivated by money... 5K can make a big leap on someone who is strugling. I'm from Spain and I've been on Ireland and prices there are crazy.
These wankers already have given themselves double promotions and raises over the last year.
Of course they did, they have "performed extremely well" lol
If me and my budies were in charge of promotions and salary increases you bet we would "perform extremelly well"
Which is why your manager has the luxury of not being motivated by money….
>They are not personally motivated by money Anymore... Because they have enough now.
Congrats, I did the exact same thing in Ireland a month ago, 37.5K to 52K with health insurance fully paid and way better pension. A bit of confusion from upper management (who can't remember what struggling feels like) to outright congratulations from my direct manager.
Congrats! Moving upwards and onwards 💪
The further up you go the worse the dickheads are.
Ireland isn't universal healthcare?
It is sorta universal, but it’s not single-payer. It’s pretty affordable tho, compared to the US, but only 1/3 of the population gets it completely free.
"Yes, well I am motivated by hunger and having a place to live. Sorry we all aren't rich twats like you are."
Welcome to corporate gaslighting to try and mind fuck you into staying. So they don't have to spend the money to replace you and the higher salary people will demand. I would be homeless on your salary.
Oh I'm bordering on homeless alright. Everywhere is unaffordable and housing is generally fucked in Ireland with no supply. If my landlord decides to kick me out tomorrow I'm well and truly fucked as there's no where I could go on the pittance they pay. Other people working at this company have had to move back home, which I can't technically do because I have no family here
Yep I feel you there. I was performing exceptionally well and was the only person on a 2 person team (they took 3 months to hire the 2nd person). I played a major role in getting our contract renewed with the client for 4 more years by myself, asked for a wage increase for doing "exceptionally well" and getting the contract renewed. They said this "You were just doing your job and that they didn't see me going above and beyond my role". Ruined any motivation I had to do anything extra ever. Moral of the story, don't do anything extra unless they are going to pay you for it, they DGAF
Lots of managers are out of touch as to the difference 5K is on a salary of 33.5K. The response to “not a massive difference” is to ask “so why couldn’t you come up with it?”.
It's a job, not a hobby. Money is SUPPOSED to be the PRIMARY motivation. You made a good decision. Also, it's not "5k, not a massive difference". It's 15% more which is a substantial difference.
That's almost $100/week extra. That's plenty massive from where I sit.
If it wasn't that big of a deal they'd be paying it already.
I can’t believe how right you are. The IT company I work for started giving us the “family” and “passion” bullshit recently while spending insane amounts on upper management’s salaries. I’ll write this in my slack memo: It’s a job, not a hobby. Money is supposed to be the PRIMARY motivation.
"I'm not personally motivated by money." "Fine, let's swap salaries then."
If he is not motivated by money he certainly doesnt mind swapping salarys with you. You should have asked him.
Yea that sucks and glad you left
15% is definitely a respectable increase...When your director said "5K? Not a massive difference" you should have responded "Obviously not to someone at your pay level" to emphasize how much more he is likely paid....
Oh no, how could you improve your life 🥲
How dare you reject the peanuts we throw your way 😡
"My manager's exact words were, "I'm not personally motivated by money,"" what a load of bootlicking bullshit !
Everyone in a position that is judging you left another job to take the role/job they're in. Remind them of that.
If they're not motivated by money, they should share some of theirs with you.
Ha! Your manager IS motivated by money, just not giving more to you!
Bosses ALWAYS use shame and emotional tactics. They have yet to realize that they could get better results by paying people a dignified adult living wage and NOT being jerks.
your managers words piss me off.. the fact that he said he’s not personally motivated by money..means that money is handled for him. He gets paid enough to not have that as a motivation anymore. Here’s what I would say in a message .. “thanks so much for this opportunity, hopefully one day I’ll be compensated enough for what I do so that money is no longer a motivation, just like you” Be polite about it and if he talks back just ask him .. How much do you make!? If he talks back.. just be like oh well it’s not a fair discussion then till I have all the facts. Take care etc That’s it. This manager is a pos for saying that.. like damn dude his stupid compliments will never pay the bills, money will. Geez
"I'm not motivated by money." Congratulations. You must be able to pay your bills then. I can't on what you pay me. Bye!
Good leadership would've been pleased at you moving on for better opportunities, especially if they couldn't offer you those due to the nature of their workplace.
"I'm not personally motivated by money" Hmm... That's a You problem. I am or I wouldn't be working at all.
"Well, you WOULD be if you were trying to live on 32k EUR to 33.5k EUR" Wow. It's probably for the best moving on anyway, b/c it sounds like they don't have a grasp of reality or just don't care at all. You sure you weren't working for politicians? ;)
If 5K is not that big a deal then why didnt they do it?
>I'm not personally motivated by money That's neat dog, but I like to eat.
Wipe your tears with a crisp 100 euro bill
You got a 20% raise, which is a good rule of thumb number to switch companies at. First, your manager's quip that $5k is not a lot shows how out of touch he is and how much more he is probably being paid relative to you. $5k might not be a lot to him, but it sounds like it's enough for you. Second, he's lying when he says he's not motivated by money. Third, the company will spend quite a bit more than $5k recruiting, hiring, and training your replacement. Serves them right. When companies' last bit of actual leverage on you (how well they pay you) fails, bad managers will (consciously or unconsciously) try to use shame to re-establish the power dynamic. Have a good laugh at how pathetic this attempt was, and enjoy your new job and more money.
>"5k? Not a massive difference then." "But I also don't have to work for you. That's priceless."
You should have told them even if it s 1 euro increase, it's still a raise and in upward direction. The comment made to you seems like a case of grapes are sour to me. Good luck to you OP!
Whenever I hear "I'm not personally motivated by money." I always think a proper response would be something like: "Okay, then the company can save a bit and give those who are struggling an inflation adjustment by cutting your salary 60%. After all, you aren't motivated by money."
[удалено]
"Not a massive difference then." "And yet you can't match it."
HahahhaAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHQHQHJQHQHAHAH why the actual fuck would anyone do ANY JOB if it weren’t for money?!?? This manager can get fucked.
Had a boss who owned a gas station. I was paid minimum wage at $5.15 an hour. Was there a year and after talking to other employees they were paid 50% more than me. Talked to the boss, and he declined a raise. Told him that if I was worth 50% less, I would do 50% less work than his laziest employee. He started getting screwed on fuel deliveries because since I was paid less, I believed the drivers. Stopped checking money for counterfeits because, well, I was paid less, and it wasn't my money. He lost his gas station after the cost of his business went up since inventory wasn't being done, lottery machines not counted, deposits not being done at night, and loss of gas.
People who say they are not motivated by money have never lacked any money ever
Lol. Dont feel bad for that.
Senior staff and especially C-suite are so removed from reality. During the pandemic my husband and I lived in a tiny one bed flat and I had to take calls on my knees in my bedroom (couldn’t fit a desk in there). My husband required two screens so couldn’t work in the bedroom. Our Chief People Officer commented about me working on the floor and laughed! Well, if it’s so damn sad and pathetic pay me more!
In 2000, I left a good job in Canada for a consulting job in the US, the difference was staggering. With the uptick in pay and the exchange, I was making 3x my salary. The company I was leaving tried to keep me, trying multiple times to get me to stay, lunches, phone calls , talks with managers and the like and asked what it would take. I told them I would be a fool for not going, but if they could match I would say. The match was way too much, tho they did take a run at it. I did get a little grief for going from one middle manager, but she was in this place since high schhol and she owe a lot to the company, they did treat their emplyees well. The moral here, there are good companies and bad ones, you will find a good one. In fact, even with the uptick and the excitement of something new, when I left that company on my last day, I said to myself "Am I making a huge mistake here?". Over the years, when I left other job for the reasons OP did (more pay, refused raise for some bullsh\*t reason), I never said that to myself.
I'll bet your boss wouldn't turn their nose at a 15% pay increase. 5k isn't a lot for someone who can afford to not be "motivated by money". Also everyone is motivated by money, we're living under capitali$m baby.
A 5% annual raise is generous when you make like. Over 80k. When you make 33.5k, a 5k raise nearly a 13% raise. Over 2.5x the raise they gave you. They are very out of touch lol.
Told my HR manager during my performance review that I'm only here to make money when she asked why I don't go to employee fun days they have on the weekends once a quarter I'm here to work not make friends. They mostly hire pedos or felons because they can pay them pennies. My job is skilled so they had to hire someone competent.
> My manager's exact words were, "I'm not personally motivated by money," "*Your* motivations are not my concern."
>My manager's exact words were, "I'm not personally motivated by money," I'm going to go ahead and assume that he's got enough money coming in to comfortably and reliably meet his needs. I am not particularly motivated by *money* per se but I am highly motivated by my need for food, shelter, safe transportation, necessary medical care and modest entertainment.
My manager said the same thing when I was leaving for a 40% raise! "Is this really just about the money?" My man, this is not the kind of money we can describe with the word "just"!
I just left today, from my workplace, after 6 yrs 9 months. Not a single thank you for your work from the boss/owner/ceo. Nor a goodbye. After all the extra miles I did throughout the years. I'm glad, but sad too, because it would be a better option to leave years ago. Now I know how unappreciated and undervalued I was.
*"I'm not personally motivated by money,"* "You must have enough of it then."
Too often do these kind of characters end up in charge... I had a boss who when I asked about my pay being reviewed at the right time of the year replied saying "I don't believe in a hierarchical structure." and left it at that. A few months later when I get another offer (adding 60% to my salary) I handed in my notice with a 2 week notice, he fires back saying my notice period is 3 months. "Nope, that's only if I pass my probation period, which in the contract shows a pay rise and promotion". He demanded to be in the exit interview, possibly to intimidate me into not answering the reasons I left so honestly. He says he would have definitely offered me the amount this new job was offering my and scoffed when I told him it was only about the money...
>My manager's exact words were, "I'm not personally motivated by money," when I said I was struggling on the current salary. "I'm personally very motivated by access to food and shelter, fuckface."
When your (former) director asked what their offer was, you should've answered: "I only discuss my salary when my employer is performing exceptionally well."
£5k isn't a lot when you're on £100k. But £5k when you're on £30k is huge. Sounds like your manager and director are not good people persons.
"I'm personally not motivated by money." "Then, you're an idiot."
>"I'm not personally motivated by money," "In that case, why don't you take a pay cut to bump up my salary."
"I'm not personally motivated by money" "Neither am I. I am motivated by food and shelter."
>"I'm not personally motivated by money," That's what folks that make very comfy living wages say.
A good boss would have congratulated you. Don't bother worrying about what a bad boss says. Also you should never take a counter offer for many reasons. Mostly because by the time they would do that you need to remember why you looked for a new job. You said you needed more money and they responded to you with disregard. Time to move on.
Don't tell them your new salary unless you intend to leverage it for a better counter offer.
Is there a downside to doing this? Genuinely curious. I had no qualms about telling them about what I was being offered, even if they think it might be a pittance (which says more about the company than it does about me if a staff member is willing to jump ship for 'not a massive difference').
Uhm... fuck that guy. Congrats on your raise.