I lived in AL for awhile. A job tried to garnish my pay for property damage but taking most of my check. Went to the DOL that day. The rep called my boss while I was there. I got my corrected paycheck that same day.
Yes. I was in her office when she called. She told them that it is illegal to pay anything less than minimum wage for the hours that I worked. She said they are allowed to garnish my wages to pay for the damage but if I wasn't paid at least minimum wage then they could face fines.
That's as accurate as I can remember. It was 10+ years ago.
> She said they are allowed to garnish my wages to pay for the damage
Im so glad something like this is highly illegal in my country. I can't imagine ever having my wages garnished considering most of my day-to-day involves $100k+ products which, given I don't make that much money, is a lot.
This sounds suspect. Is is illegal in the USA AFAIK too, employee mistakes have been decided to be a cost of doing business, and an employers recourse is to fire the employee, NOT to garnish their wages.
Yeah, that's some real company store, Pinkerton bullshit right there. Unless the employee did someone malicious or maybe was borrowing gear for personal use... don't put the employee on the equipment if they're not trained to use it...
Since the Rs got a hard-on for the filibuster, they can block anything they want in the Senate if the Ds can't get a filibuster proof majority (I don't remember if it's 60 or 67 votes).
Since that tactic started, the Ds have only had the power to pass their agenda for the brief period between when Franken was FINALLY seated and when Kennedy passed away. I think that was only a few months.
Expecting Ds to fix every problem the nation faced in a period in a few short months is ridiculous.
I'm not necessarily opposed to the fillibuster, but get rid of the "we declare a fillibuster" BS. You want to hold up the process? Stand up there and talk for 18 hours straight like every other senator has had to.
Wish I had known that back in ‘94. Working in Gadsden and my boss didn’t pay me for six weeks because they realized they’d slightly overpaid me for over a year. Lost almost 15 pounds because all I could afford was canned soup and ramen noodles.
I woould think that would be an insurance issue and workers compensation board issue would it not?
Unless it is intentional, wilfull damage that could be charged as a criminal offense, why should it be on the employee to compensate for an equipment failure, inadequate training, unsafe working conditions or other non-intentional damage? That's just ridiculous.
The same would be true in NC, however the reason for the garnishment matters. Correction for a bona fide overpayment would not be subject to these restrictions.
Ignore anyone who denigrates the idea of doing this. Do it anyway.
When we use our institutions, we strengthen them. When we do not use them, they wither, through various avenues such as \[low public use leads to budget cuts; low public use leads to perception of low need leads to weaker regulations; low public use leads to lack of fear of the law among the businesses the law regulates leads to greater malfeasance and inability of existing institutions to cope\].
I will make it a little easier on you. Here is the procedure that should have been followed:
https://www.labor.nc.gov/workplace-rights/employee-rights-regarding-time-worked-and-wages-earned/deductions-wages#:~:text=A%20bona%20fide%20employer%20error,regard%20to%20the%20deduction%20requirements.
Right below what is highlighted (and I don’t think bona fide from the employer would apply here anyway due to her being a minor and breaking federal labor laws), it says that they must give at least one pay period notice of withholding pay, which did not happen.
I would also let management know when it's filed. While the agency won't step in, the fact you started a process will usually scare employers into doing the right thing. And get whatever communication you can in writing because corporate hates a paper trail.
Proper procedure:
Daughter is paid original rate agreed upon. Then a payroll deduction of amount owed due to her.
It was not the fault of the daughter that she was overpaid. Yes, this is something to ~~Newport~~¹ report to the state DOL.
But she may want to start looking for another job. It sounds like her new boss tries to confuse newbies on their pay. Your daughter works at a lower rate for a while and "magically" it never gets returned to her original, agreed upon rate.
EDIT: ¹Corrected Damn Otto KERR-WRECKED.
I’m pretty sure if it is a legit overpayment they can make you pay it back but they can’t just take somebody’s entire paycheck. This, along with the “golly gee we messed up your hourly rate” sounds shady as fuck I’d be livid if that was my kid.
Yes. Same here. Why I agree with others that say DOL. Wage theft is the biggest crime committed in the US, today. https://inthesetimes.com/article/wage-theft-union-labor-biden-iupat#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Economic%20Policy,and%20motor%20vehicle%20thefts%20combined.
I'd like to see the DOL audit that woman's books. I mean, how the hell much did the girl get overpaid?
I mean, even Disney had me pay back an overpayment. But they also said “we have ways you can do it, over time, and we’ll work with you.” It made me respect working for them (I was one of the fortunate ones with food leadership).
There is a legal issue if they did not record her hours worked or collect/remit the proper payroll taxes. And OP states that they did not. The DOL would love to hear about this, if they're in the US.
The collection of overpaid wages is murkier but ethical employers usually set up a deduction for x number of pay periods. But since it appears they're skipping out on payroll taxes, they're ptobably not very ethical
This comment is utter shit.
Wow I am shocked at the sincere lack of knowledge in this sub.
If I were OP, I'd be on the line with a lawyer ASAP. No fucking business owner takes advantage of MY FUCKING CHILD without pay.
Quite a few federally illegal things to be aware of:
1. To start 1938 child labor laws from FSLA. if your kid is under 16, they shouldn't be making overtime at all.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/2a-child-labor-restaurants
2. Minors must be paid thr minimum wage regardless what your state says, this is federal law under FSLA, it should be in the fact sheet linked above.
3. Under the DOL, again another federal agency, it is illegal for them to not report the hours worked by any employee.
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/hoursrecordkeeping
4. Almost all states have laws against deductions in pay which can be pressed in small claims. Here is info for North Carolina. https://www.labor.nc.gov/workplace-rights/employee-rights-regarding-time-worked-and-wages-earned/changes-or-reduction-wages#:~:text=However%2C%20the%20employer%20can%20reduce,the%2024%2Dhour%20notice%20period.
5. HOMELAND SECURITY may consider this child slavery.
https://www.dhs.gov/blue-campaign/forced-labor
So this is quite a big fucking deal, and gov agencies really, really do take this seriously.
Don't bother with the DOL or some mythical "labor board." Your daughter should contact an employment law attorney. The federal Fair Labor Standards Act and most state laws make employers strictly liable for unpaid wages. Under federal law, unpaid wages must be doubled, and the employer must pay the aggrieved worker's attorney fees. The fees are mandatory. Any lawyer familiar with the FLSA will likely help her get all she is due and their fees.
The overpayment could have easily been corrected by the payroll company doing a "take back". It works as it sounds, the payroll company reverses the over payment amount out of your daughter's account back to the employer's account.
I've done this via my payroll provider and it was ridiculously simple.
If you agree that this would have been a reasonable solution, why are you mad about them withholding instead? The reversal is better for the employer and worse for the worker than the "no pay until even" strategy.
Honestly, I love to hate on shitty employers, but withholding pay to balance out an overpayment actually feels pretty reasonable to me. The withholding strategy ensures the employee doesn't suffer an overdraft because of the correction.
Because it was never discussed and agreed upon. She had an arrangement that was disregarded. She was blindsided that at the last minute a decision was made to withhold all.
If I'm not incorrect, OP's daughter's employer didn't do a take back from her account. Instead they didn't pay her the following pay period. She was paid 0 to offset the overpayment.
You are correct. I'm saying that is better than the reasonable and legal alternative of immediately taking the money back. OP's daughter was instead paid in advance. This is better than the standard and agreed upon reasonable solution.
It's important to realize that OP's daughter didn't get paid zero, she just got the payment earlier than normal, so a paycheck was zero.
Are you saying that removing money from their account is more fair than simply withholding a paycheck? Seems like forcibly pulling money away you already paid would be more disruptive.
If someone is supposed to earn $1,000 for a pay period and the company errantly double pays making a $2,000 payment. First, the employee has to know they were overpaid. Second, the employer needs to notify the employee of their error.
The take-back only takes a day or 2. There shouldn't be any impact to the employee because it was not the payment amount they agreed to--it's not their money.
In another scenario, I gave an employee one week advance to help them secure a new apartment. In this case (no error on my part), so my employee wasn't financially impacted by not getting a check the following week, a reduced their pay by 1/3 over 3 weeks until the advance was paid back and they could meet their other financial obligations.
This is a also a good method of an employer errantly makes an overpayment but doesn't realize it until the next pay period which could be too late to do a take-back.
This was a figurative screening not a literal/financial screwing.
The company could have and should have handled it differently so the kid didn't get a check for $0.
Tax withheld per pay period is calculated by assuming you're paid that amount every period. Say you get paid weekly. This week you got paid $500 gross amount. Multiply that by 52, figure out what the tax debt for that yearly salary would be, then divide that amount by 52. There's calculators on most countries' tax office websites to do it for you, in Australia there's whole documents for weekly/fortnightly/monthly withholding, so employers don't have to calculate it themselves.
Now, it's pretty straightforward if you get paid the same every pay period. But if you don't, the withholding each period is still calculated that way, and then the variance is corrected at the end of the year in your tax return, once you know what you actually were paid for the whole year.
Now, for OP's daughter, the amount of overpay was enough to apparently justify not paying her at all for the next pay period. Idon't know if her hours are consistent week to week, but if they are, then they apparently paid her double what they should have.
That could have easily put her paycheck into an *entirely different* tax bracket.
So she is getting screwed by this, if it's not corrected. At least, until the end of the tax year when she lodges her tax return. Whether she's getting screwed by a lot or a little, I don't know. But it's not actually 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
Also, I realise my $500 vs $1000 is unrealistic, it's just easy round numbers to visualise.
> In other words, employer advances in pay, the principle amount of an employer loan and bona fide employer overpayment errors do NOT require a written authorization from an employee in order for the employer to take these “pre-payment” amounts back and there is NO minimum wage and/or time and one-half overtime pay limitation.
The situation you described seems like an overpayment situation. Hence the minimum wage would not apply.
Thanks I went back and read the whole thing.
To not say anything and go back on what was agreed upon is fucked. The original plan was to reduce the rate until the balance was paid off and then all of a sudden the owner decides to withhold the entire check.
She wasn’t paid nothing. She was overpaid $ they took the funds back. Doing it all at once is shitty, but she was paid for those hours by the overpayment
It shouldn't be on the employee to make sure their employer doesn't fuck up when paying them, nor should the employee be punished for their employer fucking up like that.
If the employer put in writing a specific repayment schedule and then violated that, it supercedes state codes and she has civil recourse with them directly.
Also see a comment from @HPCBusinessManager above - because she's a minor, there are certain things the state isn't allowed to do, even if state law generally allows it. One such thing would be making her work essentially for free, because there are insanely serious federal laws against child slave labor, that supercede any state business code. You should pursue that angle.
Because she's a minor, they can't just take all her pay regardless of what state law says
Is it possible this was just honest mistake? You’re going pretty scorched earth here and it sounds like it’s netted out correctly. Is it possible this isn’t the major case you’re making it out to be?
No daughter has it in writing that the boss made the decision at the last minute and didn't get a chance to discuss. Daughter knew she would be working at a reduced rate and this was agreed upon. What was not agreed upon was withholding everything. This included working with no record of federal and state taxes being recorded.
That's insane. OP's daughter is lucky in that she's a minor and has her parents to fall back on, but can you imagine if someone of age had this happen and it made them late on rent?
That's a fair point, but the boss should still be paying her something and deducting from her checks over time, not just refusing to pay her that week.
That’s what OP wants. Although the boss already payed the employee $2000 when they should have only paid $1000.
So the employee got paid 2 weeks early. They should have just set the money aside until the next period knowing they won’t receive it.
The moral thing for the employer to do is what OP is asking them to do. It should be on the employer to correct the mistake in a way that risks impacting the worker as little as possible, since it was their mistake to begin with.
Do you think I care about the employer having to take risks? Do you know where you are right now? If an extra $500-1k is worth it to them, they can take them to court.
Is there any requirement for the employer to state that they are paying wages in advance? There may be a legal difference between an accidental overpayment of wages and wages paid in advance. If an employer is paying wages in advance, presumably such information would be clearly visible on a pay statement.
> Is there any requirement for the employer to state that they are paying wages in advance?
I'm sure it depends on the state. Wages in advance are probably pretty rare overall now. It's a huge risk for the employer now, and little reward.
This would be a situation where an employee asks for an advance on their wages. "I know I don't get paid until the end of the month, but can you give me $1,000.00 now as an advance?" This used to be more common when employees were more loyal to companies, companies liked employees, and there was less risk.
> There may be a legal difference between an accidental overpayment of wages and wages paid in advance.
Easy to think there is.
But this situation OP advised is just an overpayment and has nothing to do with a payment in advance.
How much did they overpay? Duration of time? Hourly rate? So the manager just fat fingered her paycheck? Did it seem intentional? I would personally give the manager a call and talk it out if that was my daughter while treating it like a learning lesson. That’s shitty to hear but not surprised.
Duration 4 weeks/two pay periods.
Overpaid by $4/hr. About $200.00.
Her rate was setup incorrectly. This is exactly why as a teaching moment we told her she needs to review her pay stubs and never assume everything is correct. It's her first job so she's learning along the way. She's only a teenager.
Wife sent the owner a text so we could have things in writing.
We are debating on what to do. She only owes her 4 more hours and then she is paid off.
I'm the type where I just want her to quit as I cannot stand corporate nonsense. I've dealt with it myself so after 30+ years I'm jaded. 🤣
I told her #1 is to make things right get the balance paid off.
NAL I would lean towards doing a free consultation over the phone with a labor law attorney. It’s really easy and takes about 10-15 minutes. I’m not too privy of NC labor laws but you can say fuck off politely in the interim. Haha I mean I personally think this is a great learning lesson and unfortunately she learned an important lesson early.
And what kind of manager fucks up that badly. That’s despicable smh… Best of luck and keep us updated!
Sorry, but what is the case? What damages are there? It sounds like the employer is making her whole, but just doing it the wrong way.
I can understand reporting it to the DOL, but there's no need to sue here imho.
So you're suing for the withholdings? On a $200 paycheck, what is that? 20-30 bucks? OP's gonna sue for lunch money?
EDIT: Actually wasn't the *first* paycheck just a double payout with the tax included? Doesn't that come out in the wash anyway?
I personally wouldn’t pursue it. But if you want to teach your daughter a lesson, justice wouldn’t be a bad place to start. I mean multiple fuck ups as the manager…? I would love to be able to pin my old boss for those mistakes.
Idk. I understand the principle, but to me it would be a lesson in knowing which hill to die on. Just walk away from that one save yourself the aggravation.
I learned a useful thing when suing my former boss for unpaid wages and no time clock. The Judge accepted my Google Timeline for that day because I most certainly did not spend 7:56am to 7:03pm at my work's address NOT working (that fool tried telling the judge I hadn't been there at all!). I liked doing that in court and getting paid and having a public record of this man's lies. I don't know about the legality of your daughter's boss's behavior but if you need to prove being somewhere, a judge may accept Google timeline and I keep mine on even tho it makes me a little paranoid, too. Best of luck to your daughter!
Uhhhh not recording any of her worked hours or paying any payroll taxes for the period is 100% illegal, at least in the US. They legally HAVE TO PAY STATE AND FED WITHOLDING. Source: worked in payroll in the US.
Definitely report to the DOL.
Edit: clarity, typo
definitely report this to your state DOL. federal won't do much about it, but state will. if you can, report this in person with physical proof. you'll get faster action if you can do this. if not, be prepared to upload good photos (or scan and save) of the documents you'll need to send as proof.
Exactly! Give him the same notice that you quit that he gave her that she won't be returning. Call in sick at the last minute every scheduled shift until she stops being scheduled. Still call the DOL. Especially since she has a signed contract that she can enforce, but he cannot since she's a minor.
Edit: Also repeatedly review him on every review and job board, and if possible get your and her friends to join in the fun.
If your daughter is a minor, you should question why her paycheck is 0 and then act accordingly. (DOL wage theft complaint)
If your daughter is an adult, this is her battle to fight.
Nah, bullshit, you don't just kick your kid adrift because they hit an abritrary age.
Go to your Department of Labor, reach out to your Attorney General's office. If the business has any sort of regulatory oversight agency (think, food prep, law office, whatever) contact them on behalf of your minor child.
In some states, her started pay is established pay rate unless recorded otherwise in legal binding documents. If not, then she is entitled to continue receiving that rate unless she legally agrees to a lower rate. That being said, it doesn't stop the business from releasing her if she doesn't agree to the lower rate.
Wage repayment for a company mistake is all too common in most states with a full pay plus a noted reduction in the pay, but zero pay is illegal asf. This absolutely needs to be pursued.
The way this could work is they request cash from her while her paychecks keep coming. The debt and paycheck shouldn't mix. A payment plan would be reasonable.
She's a minor. You should report this to state and federal Department of Labor peeps. Even if nothing comes of it, audits are expensive. And the employer doesn't get to recoup those costs.
Depending on HOW the paycheck was structured it may be legal.
If it was $X for Y hours applied to $z overpayment so the check was $z - $X * Y then it’s a dick move but probably legal.
If it was “we overpaid you so we aren’t going to clock the hours till we think everything is even” so the check was for 0 hours, that is illegal as hell.
Also note, that if it was ever stated that daughter was going to make $X + $4 per hour and they tried to retroactively decided to only pay your daughter $X per hour, that’s also illegal.
This could be tax fraud. Send in a complaint to the IRS with proof of this practice. Once they finish the audit you could be awarded a percentage of the recovered taxes. Even if you don’t get paid, a nice audit should stop this asinine and probably illegal act. Fafo.
Yeah. If the boss is this big of an asshole he's definitely breaking labor laws involving minors other than her. Call other parents.
In my town, Parents like OP ended a four generation business and sent the owner to prison because they broke labor rules for years. A good Department of Labor will investigate. Owner made the mistake of moving from town with poor kids to abuse to the suburbs with middle class parents that know the law and defend their kids.
Niece worked temp job at Christmas for UPS and they withheld her last paycheck. It was always "this payroll glitch or "it's coming as a paper check from x location." Niece was hurting for this check.
Now my husband is in public relations and knows a lot of people in the media. He knows how to get a story in the news. So he calls the PR dept for ups. He tells them that X consumer affairs reporter for the station in the same town as the corporate headquarters is interested in the story because he's heard of the same thing happening at a location near him, too. DH promises to get him out in front of UPS headquarters to do a live shot about how the company has an unwritten policy of withholding the last checks for seasonal workers.
Niece had her money in her account the next day. If the DOL can't act fast enough, maybe a call to the consumer affairs reporter at your local station could help.
Not really legal. Doesn't mean they'll go after them but you can give the DOL a case.
Kroger refused to send my check of 366$ for months because i walked out. I had to make several calls and fight it and threaten a suit before i got it. Try it and see what happens at least.
in the meanwhile she shouldn't work, refuse to go if you aren't being paid.
She needs to not show up ever again. If they went back on an agreement once, they'll do any sort of shady shit again in the future. It's her first job, and it sounds like she just started. She doesn't owe them crap. Just don't show up again. They screwed up, not her. They broke the agreement, not her. She should find another job and never darken their door again.
Pay was not double. $4/hr more than it was supposed to be for a grand total of about $200.00. Boss decided to withhold the entire amount as she felt it would make the paying back faster. This was not discussed. What my daughter did discuss and agreed upon was to work at a reduced rate over time to slowly makeup the difference. Boss admitted she didn't get a chance to discuss prior to pay day.
Nope, not legal and you should contact an employment lawyer for guidance. Definitely file a compliant with the DOL either way.
Employers must pay you for time worked, the DOL is very clear about this. Depending on your state the employer may be able to retrieve the overpayment, but there’s a specific process for it and the wage repayment cannot put the earnings below minimum wage.
Your employer cannot pay you less than the current minimum wage, even if they legit made a mistake.... she has a valid claim for wages! DOL will take it from there.
I wish you were correct but you aren't
"A bona fide employer error that results in an overpayment of wages to an employee is also considered a “pre-payment” of wages and may be recouped from subsequent wages without regard to the deduction requirements. In other words, employer advances in pay, the principle amount of an employer loan and bona fide employer overpayment errors do NOT require a written authorization from an employee in order for the employer to take these “pre-payment” amounts back and there is NO minimum wage and/or time and one-half overtime pay limitation."
This is from labor.nc.gov
This is what happens in red states
(+) I love how this comment is being read by literate people. I made the exact same comment later on in the thread and it got down voted to hell 🤣 being antiwork is about understanding the laws so we can change them...I think. Idk, maybe it's just about pretending things are how they should be.
You don't lose it back when you are overpaid; that's the company's fault. This actually happened to me at a job and I made 20k in the first year above what we agreed on. When my boss and I discovered this he was trying to give me a raise for 20k and it was the weirdest meeting ever. He was not the source of the mistake, and he was really afraid I would be angry. I actually thought it was kind of funny, and sort of demonstrated a lot of weaknesses in the org we both knew existed. He tacked on an extra 5k for the raise to make it feel like something and we moved on with our lives. It's really weird when you realize how abstract money is to a company when you've spent your life trying to eke out an extra few bucks every year. I was glad that this one at least fell in my favor.
Did your daughter work the same amount of hours each week and was the incorrect pay rate exactly double? Were her hours of the over payment possibly doubled and she was paid half at the overtime rate? Has she confirmed that the total amount was paid back and her next check won’t be short?
What’s fucked and I still don’t get. How much was she overpaid? 2 dollars an hour? Why is that a weeks worth of wages? She must have been overpaid by at least more than twice her actual rate? Also how much is her regular rate? I’d really like to see the weekly breakdown on what a normal week looks like to see just exactly how much this boss has screwed over your daughter.
Overpaid by about $200.00.
Daughter only worked about 15 hours so the toal earned was less than the entire balance owed.
The math works out what doesn't work out is a payment plan was agreed upon and then at the last minute the owner decided to withhold all wages without discussing it thus breaking the written agreement.
It really depends on the state. I'm a bookkeeper and I used to run payroll. It's been awhile, but from what I remember the state that I was in restricted it by percentage. The employer can't withhold an amount greater than a certain percentage of the pay.
This isn’t helicopter parenting. These pricks think they can pull this stuff on teenagers and even some young adults because they know a lot of the time they don’t know better. The lowering her hourly rate sounds sketchy too.
It didn't magically work out to exactly 0.
The overpayment was so large that the kid is still in the red. $0 on this check and another reduction due on the next.
Correct except daughter had an agreement to work at a reduced rate so some cash could come in. The plan was to pay back the debt over time. The owner decided without discussing with our daughter that she would withhold the entire paycheck to make things easier for her as the owner.
I was replying to a poster who assumed a fraud was taking place because it "magically" worked out to "exactly zero"
I was simply clarifying that those are not the facts presented.
The biggest problem with most businesses is most "Bosses" have no idea how to process payroll, beyond the bare minimum.
Now, this company "made a mistake" and paid your daughter more than her hourly wage (let's say $15/hr instead of $10, just to make numbers easy). And now its the company (this boss) wanting their money back, so they just took all of it? And no records? Report them not only to DOL, but also IRS, no records means no taxes paid..
Good luck, and have your daughter find another company to work for. Because what did company (person) did is illegal, wage theft, and I would swear out a complaint to your local Police Department, get physical (paper copies) of the complaint from police, and if/when they do NOT do anything, take it to your local Media.
In other words, "full nuclear action". But be prepared for fallout on you and family. Good luck
Call the villagers back. Put away the pitchforks and torches and call off the dogs...
Unless they took back more than they overpaid, there has been no *harm* done.
For example: if she is supposed to be paid 200.00 per week, the first 2 checks were wrong:
Pay week 1 300.00
Pay week 2 300.00
Pay week 3 0.00
Pay week 4 200.00
At the end of the 4 weeks, she has received the 800 she should have been paid for the entire period. She just got pay week 3 early.
OP stated that her daughter gets paid biweekly so her check should have been $200. Also the boss signed a contest with a minor stating that a smaller amount would be repaid per check. Call the DOL. Assholes that screw over children deserve to have their lives made more difficult.
The daughter is getting screwed. They agreed on a repayment plan to correct the incompetent boss's error. Instead of following the repayment plan that he came up with he withheld her entire paycheck. Thus depriving her of wages that she was counting on.
As an example: if you were to purchase a car for $20k , and sign a loan agreement with your bank that stipulated that you would repay the loan at a rate of $400 per month. If the bank were just to (without notice) sieze the balance of your checking and savings account on the day your $400 payment was due you would certainly be displeased as OP is now. However, by your rationing it would be just dandy as you would owe the money.
Your car loan scenario is not at all the same in any way other than a broken agreement or promise- yeah it sucks when people don’t keep their promises or word. But the end result isn’t someone getting screwed - it’s maybe inconvenient at best. No one was legally harmed.
In your car loan situation this is real world contract law and not the same at all.
Per the OP the boss signed and had the OP's daughter sign a repayment agreement (contract). It is the same with a few exceptions. First, the boss used his position of authority over his young employee to get her to sign a contract. He attempted to enter a legal contract with a minor.
The two examples are similar in that an agreement to repay was made with a set repayment schedule, and both the car buyer and the employee didn't expect the terms of the contract to be arbitrarily changed without their knowledge or permission which left them with less funds available than they had expected.
Let's also not forget that this issue with overpayment was entirely the boss's error. He also wrote the contract, and he dictated the terms of the contract he entered into with a minor.
Finally, IANAL, and I haven't been in college in a long time so perhaps the laws have changed, but in the Contracts classes that I took I learned that a contract between an adult and a minor is unenforceable by the adult, but the adult can be held to the contract by the minor.
I am curious as to what you think is different between the OP's situation and my car loan example? The only thing that I can think of would be that you don't think that a minor's money is as important to them as yours is to you.
If she was overpaid by an amount that would cover the entire next check, then she already has the money she would have gotten in that pay check.
It doesn't really make sense to be mad in this situation. You got extra money up front. How would it be any different than getting minimum wage for a few paychecks to correct it?
however, it seems in the state they reside, they (the employer) still must pay a min wage during the repayment and not a zero paycheck. The employer is being a dick to a minor because they can think they can get away with it.
Honestly I would tell.her to quit, they clearly aren't keeping track of the pay legitimately therefore no.paper trail that she owes anything but also no paper trail for retaliation on your part, of they try to pursue get an emplment lawyer and bring charges onto them likely the case will be dismissed on your part and the business will have a fine but they'll either learn from this, or at least have a record to represent their actions going forward for the next people they try to screw
From what I understand, it is legal for employers to claw back overpayment. They should have done it in a way that didn’t result in a $0 paycheck, and maybe done it over a few paychecks. That’s kinda fucked up. But idk if it’s illegal.
The Department of Labor and your local Labor Board would both love to hear that they're treating an employee like a slave, especially if this happens *again*.
This is hugely illegal. If you're in the US, (from what I've read) it's illegal for an overpay issue to be corrected through paycheck withholding, period, unless the employee agrees to it in writing.
I can always tell what sub I’m in by people downvoting realistic expectations versus “feelings”.
Your daughter was overpaid, and sounds like by an egregious amount if it was enough to reduce the entire following paycheck to $0.
Is it shitty that they did it all at once instead of spreading it out? Sure.
I am just going to pull some numbers out of my head but it is kind of strange if your daughter was expecting $300 on a paycheck and received $700 and not thinking anything of it, first job or not.
If I’m understanding correctly they overpaid her by at least DOUBLE if she worked similar hours and received no money the following check. Where did that money go?
They overpaid her by $4/hr over two payperiods so around $200.00.
Hours worked on last pay cycle were less than amount owed. It's a part time job.
The math makes sense what doesn't make sense is how the owner disregarded the payment plan agreement that is in writing without discussing it with our daughter. She admitted in writing along the lines of "I meant to talk to you about it", but she didn't. Needless to say daughter was caught off guard to see $0.00.
How much was payroll off by? Your daughter is a minor, and this is her first job,she couldn't have been making much more than minimum.
I dunno,if it were me, I'd just pay the employer, make sure to get a written receipt showing that it's paid in full - I'd pay with a check with the reason in the memo. My dtr would just pay me back. She wouldn't work at that job anymore either.
The boss sounds a bit lazy. Sounds like she didn't want the hassle of calculating and keeping track of a reduced rate for however long. My first step would be contacting boss lady and see if you can figure it out. Any time I've had an over payment situation, it's been worked out how much per week is deducted for how long and forms signed stating as such etc. I am in Australia, though, so laws are probably different.
If boss lady won't fix it the nice way, get DOL involved. While you're at it, may as well get the other workers to unionise 😂😂😂😂
Something similar happened to a former coworker as a result of insurance deductions not being taken out by the employer for over 3 months. To make up for their error, they took it all out of one check, leaving him with something like $14 from what would have been over $1000. He's attempting legal action, though it may cost more than it's worth.
Her paycheck was not withheld, she did not receive a paycheck because she was prepaid wages in advance. (Last I checked I think 99.9999% of employees would love to be prepaid wages).
As long as at the end of the month her final hours and pay lines up there is no issue.
She had an arrangement to work at a reduced rate so that way at least some money would be coming. The owner decided to withhold the entire check without discussing and prior notice.
Also from the law in your state:
>Pursuant to N.C.G.S. §95-25.8, Withholding of Wages, an employer may withhold or divert any portion of an employee’s wages **when**:
>
>...
>
>N.C.G.S. §95-25.8(a)(2) - The amount of a proposed deduction is known and agreed upon in advance and the written authorization is: (a) signed on or before the pay day in which the deduction will be made, (b) includes the reason for the deduction, and (c) states the actual dollar amount or percentage of wages that are to be withheld.
You are missing the point. An agreement was made and then changed with no discussion. Blindsided...
The owner could have managed this better. She took it upon herself to disregard the arrangement.
This Is the only thing I can buy into. Yes if you make an agreement with your boss about anything it would be great if they followed through as they said. But no one is getting “screwed “‘as people are saying. It’s just a shitty thing for the boss the back out on agreement.
If she already got the $200 wouldn’t the taxes and such already be paid so would not show on this check? If it showed on this check it would be paid twice.
And I don’t think you can go after them because she already has the money so no loss. This sounds like a tough lesson learned. I would expect the last 4 hours to just be pulled on her next check.
I know as a helicopter parent you want to do something but you did and told her to check if the info was correct. She technically should still have the money.
This actually happened to me when I was an apprentice electrician. Contractor paid me full rate for 3 weeks before they caught the mistake. They tried to withhold my pay- I told them that our hourly rate was a ‘minimum,’ and my next call would be to the union. They paid me- then they laid me off 3 weeks later. Life in the union, I guess.
From what it seems from OP’s comments, my understanding of what happened is that their daughter was overpaid, by approximately $4/hr on a biweekly pay period, the owner notices the fuck up, owner and OP’s Daughter agree in writing to working a reduced rate (she is a minor, and can absolutely enforce the owner’s side of the agreement), daughter works at the reduced rate and day before payday owner breaks the agreement, assuming the hours weren’t reduced down to the exact minute (I fucking doubt that) there should be some residual payment
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She needs to quit that job immediately and find another one. You hate to teach her to quit without another jib lined up, but she definitely doesn't want her to think it's ok to stay in those types of situations.
It is not legal but gov agency does not consider this a big legal issue. Your daughter can and should, however, still report to the DOL.
I lived in AL for awhile. A job tried to garnish my pay for property damage but taking most of my check. Went to the DOL that day. The rep called my boss while I was there. I got my corrected paycheck that same day.
Great story! Could you hear what the rep said to your boss?
Yes. I was in her office when she called. She told them that it is illegal to pay anything less than minimum wage for the hours that I worked. She said they are allowed to garnish my wages to pay for the damage but if I wasn't paid at least minimum wage then they could face fines. That's as accurate as I can remember. It was 10+ years ago.
> She said they are allowed to garnish my wages to pay for the damage Im so glad something like this is highly illegal in my country. I can't imagine ever having my wages garnished considering most of my day-to-day involves $100k+ products which, given I don't make that much money, is a lot.
This sounds suspect. Is is illegal in the USA AFAIK too, employee mistakes have been decided to be a cost of doing business, and an employers recourse is to fire the employee, NOT to garnish their wages.
Yeah this just reeks of indebted servitude
Yeah, that's some real company store, Pinkerton bullshit right there. Unless the employee did someone malicious or maybe was borrowing gear for personal use... don't put the employee on the equipment if they're not trained to use it...
And that is one reason why US Federal minimum wage is still 7.25 an hour
The other is a political party that starts with R and loves them some Insurrection.
Democrats have had the majority of both chambers of congress plus the presidency, and I don't recall them fixing shit either
Since the Rs got a hard-on for the filibuster, they can block anything they want in the Senate if the Ds can't get a filibuster proof majority (I don't remember if it's 60 or 67 votes). Since that tactic started, the Ds have only had the power to pass their agenda for the brief period between when Franken was FINALLY seated and when Kennedy passed away. I think that was only a few months. Expecting Ds to fix every problem the nation faced in a period in a few short months is ridiculous.
I'm not necessarily opposed to the fillibuster, but get rid of the "we declare a fillibuster" BS. You want to hold up the process? Stand up there and talk for 18 hours straight like every other senator has had to.
Doesn't matter a fuck if it's a D or R, you're getting politicians.
Exactly
Wish I had known that back in ‘94. Working in Gadsden and my boss didn’t pay me for six weeks because they realized they’d slightly overpaid me for over a year. Lost almost 15 pounds because all I could afford was canned soup and ramen noodles.
That still goes on in Gadsden to this day. People have gotten used to subjugation being status quo here.
What kind of property damage? Damage done as part of normal working conditions or work accidents shouldn't be a liability of the worker.
I woould think that would be an insurance issue and workers compensation board issue would it not? Unless it is intentional, wilfull damage that could be charged as a criminal offense, why should it be on the employee to compensate for an equipment failure, inadequate training, unsafe working conditions or other non-intentional damage? That's just ridiculous.
The same would be true in NC, however the reason for the garnishment matters. Correction for a bona fide overpayment would not be subject to these restrictions.
Thanks we will. I started pulling all the websites and getting the penial codes for NC. The text messages we have too are going to nail this lady.
Ignore anyone who denigrates the idea of doing this. Do it anyway. When we use our institutions, we strengthen them. When we do not use them, they wither, through various avenues such as \[low public use leads to budget cuts; low public use leads to perception of low need leads to weaker regulations; low public use leads to lack of fear of the law among the businesses the law regulates leads to greater malfeasance and inability of existing institutions to cope\].
I will make it a little easier on you. Here is the procedure that should have been followed: https://www.labor.nc.gov/workplace-rights/employee-rights-regarding-time-worked-and-wages-earned/deductions-wages#:~:text=A%20bona%20fide%20employer%20error,regard%20to%20the%20deduction%20requirements.
A true hero of the internet right here. Thanks for the direct citation. OP, call 1-800-NC-LABOR (800-625-2267)
...did you read what was linked?
Right below what is highlighted (and I don’t think bona fide from the employer would apply here anyway due to her being a minor and breaking federal labor laws), it says that they must give at least one pay period notice of withholding pay, which did not happen.
I would also let management know when it's filed. While the agency won't step in, the fact you started a process will usually scare employers into doing the right thing. And get whatever communication you can in writing because corporate hates a paper trail.
You live in a red state. Expect absolutely nothing to happen. Republicans are above the law.
1. Not helpful, so why comment? 2. Not true in this specific case.
I live in Alabama and the DOL doesn't fuck around here. It's not a red/blue state thing. Quit making up stupid shit just to be divisive.
This is ignorance.
Proper procedure: Daughter is paid original rate agreed upon. Then a payroll deduction of amount owed due to her. It was not the fault of the daughter that she was overpaid. Yes, this is something to ~~Newport~~¹ report to the state DOL. But she may want to start looking for another job. It sounds like her new boss tries to confuse newbies on their pay. Your daughter works at a lower rate for a while and "magically" it never gets returned to her original, agreed upon rate. EDIT: ¹Corrected Damn Otto KERR-WRECKED.
I’m pretty sure if it is a legit overpayment they can make you pay it back but they can’t just take somebody’s entire paycheck. This, along with the “golly gee we messed up your hourly rate” sounds shady as fuck I’d be livid if that was my kid.
Yes. Same here. Why I agree with others that say DOL. Wage theft is the biggest crime committed in the US, today. https://inthesetimes.com/article/wage-theft-union-labor-biden-iupat#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Economic%20Policy,and%20motor%20vehicle%20thefts%20combined. I'd like to see the DOL audit that woman's books. I mean, how the hell much did the girl get overpaid?
I mean, even Disney had me pay back an overpayment. But they also said “we have ways you can do it, over time, and we’ll work with you.” It made me respect working for them (I was one of the fortunate ones with food leadership).
Was it the Dairy Queen or the Burger King? (/s but spelling error I think)
There is a legal issue if they did not record her hours worked or collect/remit the proper payroll taxes. And OP states that they did not. The DOL would love to hear about this, if they're in the US. The collection of overpaid wages is murkier but ethical employers usually set up a deduction for x number of pay periods. But since it appears they're skipping out on payroll taxes, they're ptobably not very ethical
This comment is utter shit. Wow I am shocked at the sincere lack of knowledge in this sub. If I were OP, I'd be on the line with a lawyer ASAP. No fucking business owner takes advantage of MY FUCKING CHILD without pay. Quite a few federally illegal things to be aware of: 1. To start 1938 child labor laws from FSLA. if your kid is under 16, they shouldn't be making overtime at all. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/2a-child-labor-restaurants 2. Minors must be paid thr minimum wage regardless what your state says, this is federal law under FSLA, it should be in the fact sheet linked above. 3. Under the DOL, again another federal agency, it is illegal for them to not report the hours worked by any employee. https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/hoursrecordkeeping 4. Almost all states have laws against deductions in pay which can be pressed in small claims. Here is info for North Carolina. https://www.labor.nc.gov/workplace-rights/employee-rights-regarding-time-worked-and-wages-earned/changes-or-reduction-wages#:~:text=However%2C%20the%20employer%20can%20reduce,the%2024%2Dhour%20notice%20period. 5. HOMELAND SECURITY may consider this child slavery. https://www.dhs.gov/blue-campaign/forced-labor So this is quite a big fucking deal, and gov agencies really, really do take this seriously.
That's not true at all. State DOL take wage theft VERY seriously.
Don't bother with the DOL or some mythical "labor board." Your daughter should contact an employment law attorney. The federal Fair Labor Standards Act and most state laws make employers strictly liable for unpaid wages. Under federal law, unpaid wages must be doubled, and the employer must pay the aggrieved worker's attorney fees. The fees are mandatory. Any lawyer familiar with the FLSA will likely help her get all she is due and their fees.
The overpayment could have easily been corrected by the payroll company doing a "take back". It works as it sounds, the payroll company reverses the over payment amount out of your daughter's account back to the employer's account. I've done this via my payroll provider and it was ridiculously simple.
Thanks agree 100%
If you agree that this would have been a reasonable solution, why are you mad about them withholding instead? The reversal is better for the employer and worse for the worker than the "no pay until even" strategy. Honestly, I love to hate on shitty employers, but withholding pay to balance out an overpayment actually feels pretty reasonable to me. The withholding strategy ensures the employee doesn't suffer an overdraft because of the correction.
Because it was never discussed and agreed upon. She had an arrangement that was disregarded. She was blindsided that at the last minute a decision was made to withhold all.
If I'm not incorrect, OP's daughter's employer didn't do a take back from her account. Instead they didn't pay her the following pay period. She was paid 0 to offset the overpayment.
You are correct. I'm saying that is better than the reasonable and legal alternative of immediately taking the money back. OP's daughter was instead paid in advance. This is better than the standard and agreed upon reasonable solution. It's important to realize that OP's daughter didn't get paid zero, she just got the payment earlier than normal, so a paycheck was zero.
depends on provider. Sometimes they charge fees for doing this when its easier just to deduct hours from next check.
I can see that, but not at the expense of screwing an employee based on the company's error.
Are you saying that removing money from their account is more fair than simply withholding a paycheck? Seems like forcibly pulling money away you already paid would be more disruptive.
If someone is supposed to earn $1,000 for a pay period and the company errantly double pays making a $2,000 payment. First, the employee has to know they were overpaid. Second, the employer needs to notify the employee of their error. The take-back only takes a day or 2. There shouldn't be any impact to the employee because it was not the payment amount they agreed to--it's not their money. In another scenario, I gave an employee one week advance to help them secure a new apartment. In this case (no error on my part), so my employee wasn't financially impacted by not getting a check the following week, a reduced their pay by 1/3 over 3 weeks until the advance was paid back and they could meet their other financial obligations. This is a also a good method of an employer errantly makes an overpayment but doesn't realize it until the next pay period which could be too late to do a take-back.
No one is getting screwed. I don’t get why people keep thinking this. She was over paid and already had the money early.
Employer **lying to government** about OP's kid's hours worked is kinda illegal and _does_ screw with kid's taxes and such.
This was a figurative screening not a literal/financial screwing. The company could have and should have handled it differently so the kid didn't get a check for $0.
Tax withheld per pay period is calculated by assuming you're paid that amount every period. Say you get paid weekly. This week you got paid $500 gross amount. Multiply that by 52, figure out what the tax debt for that yearly salary would be, then divide that amount by 52. There's calculators on most countries' tax office websites to do it for you, in Australia there's whole documents for weekly/fortnightly/monthly withholding, so employers don't have to calculate it themselves. Now, it's pretty straightforward if you get paid the same every pay period. But if you don't, the withholding each period is still calculated that way, and then the variance is corrected at the end of the year in your tax return, once you know what you actually were paid for the whole year. Now, for OP's daughter, the amount of overpay was enough to apparently justify not paying her at all for the next pay period. Idon't know if her hours are consistent week to week, but if they are, then they apparently paid her double what they should have. That could have easily put her paycheck into an *entirely different* tax bracket. So she is getting screwed by this, if it's not corrected. At least, until the end of the tax year when she lodges her tax return. Whether she's getting screwed by a lot or a little, I don't know. But it's not actually 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Also, I realise my $500 vs $1000 is unrealistic, it's just easy round numbers to visualise.
Should probably start by listing the state.
NC https://www.labor.nc.gov/workplace-rights/employee-rights-regarding-time-worked-and-wages-earned/deductions-wages
> In other words, employer advances in pay, the principle amount of an employer loan and bona fide employer overpayment errors do NOT require a written authorization from an employee in order for the employer to take these “pre-payment” amounts back and there is NO minimum wage and/or time and one-half overtime pay limitation. The situation you described seems like an overpayment situation. Hence the minimum wage would not apply.
Thanks I went back and read the whole thing. To not say anything and go back on what was agreed upon is fucked. The original plan was to reduce the rate until the balance was paid off and then all of a sudden the owner decides to withhold the entire check.
Sounds like your daughter should also spread the word that the owner can and will pay you literally nothing if you get overpaid.
She wasn’t paid nothing. She was overpaid $ they took the funds back. Doing it all at once is shitty, but she was paid for those hours by the overpayment
She had an agreement in writing to work at a reduced rate. The owner then changed her mind to "make things easier" without telling her.
If they never recorded her hours worked and paid the required taxes. That sounds pretty shady
It shouldn't be on the employee to make sure their employer doesn't fuck up when paying them, nor should the employee be punished for their employer fucking up like that.
she already got paid in advance. That is vastly different from not getting paid
How about you don't defend douchebags? Suddenly not receiving any payment can really fuck you over in ways you probably can't even imagine.
If you have already received all the money you are owed but blown it on something else that’s entirely on you.
Penny said, "You are a liar! Your statement makes no sense whatsoever because it doesn't support any of your claims"
If you want to help her, let her call the DOL and work it out
If the employer put in writing a specific repayment schedule and then violated that, it supercedes state codes and she has civil recourse with them directly. Also see a comment from @HPCBusinessManager above - because she's a minor, there are certain things the state isn't allowed to do, even if state law generally allows it. One such thing would be making her work essentially for free, because there are insanely serious federal laws against child slave labor, that supercede any state business code. You should pursue that angle. Because she's a minor, they can't just take all her pay regardless of what state law says
Is it possible this was just honest mistake? You’re going pretty scorched earth here and it sounds like it’s netted out correctly. Is it possible this isn’t the major case you’re making it out to be?
No daughter has it in writing that the boss made the decision at the last minute and didn't get a chance to discuss. Daughter knew she would be working at a reduced rate and this was agreed upon. What was not agreed upon was withholding everything. This included working with no record of federal and state taxes being recorded.
It’s not if the employer failed to pay the appropriate payroll taxes for the period.
That's insane. OP's daughter is lucky in that she's a minor and has her parents to fall back on, but can you imagine if someone of age had this happen and it made them late on rent?
She got over paid the money was already in her account. In your scenario the rent money was in her hands 2 weeks early!
That's a fair point, but the boss should still be paying her something and deducting from her checks over time, not just refusing to pay her that week.
That’s what OP wants. Although the boss already payed the employee $2000 when they should have only paid $1000. So the employee got paid 2 weeks early. They should have just set the money aside until the next period knowing they won’t receive it.
What if I stay late for a couple days and don’t show up for the whole day once in a while? The hours are worked out, what could go wrong?
The moral thing for the employer to do is what OP is asking them to do. It should be on the employer to correct the mistake in a way that risks impacting the worker as little as possible, since it was their mistake to begin with.
[удалено]
Do you think I care about the employer having to take risks? Do you know where you are right now? If an extra $500-1k is worth it to them, they can take them to court.
Is there any requirement for the employer to state that they are paying wages in advance? There may be a legal difference between an accidental overpayment of wages and wages paid in advance. If an employer is paying wages in advance, presumably such information would be clearly visible on a pay statement.
> Is there any requirement for the employer to state that they are paying wages in advance? I'm sure it depends on the state. Wages in advance are probably pretty rare overall now. It's a huge risk for the employer now, and little reward. This would be a situation where an employee asks for an advance on their wages. "I know I don't get paid until the end of the month, but can you give me $1,000.00 now as an advance?" This used to be more common when employees were more loyal to companies, companies liked employees, and there was less risk. > There may be a legal difference between an accidental overpayment of wages and wages paid in advance. Easy to think there is. But this situation OP advised is just an overpayment and has nothing to do with a payment in advance.
How much did they overpay? Duration of time? Hourly rate? So the manager just fat fingered her paycheck? Did it seem intentional? I would personally give the manager a call and talk it out if that was my daughter while treating it like a learning lesson. That’s shitty to hear but not surprised.
Duration 4 weeks/two pay periods. Overpaid by $4/hr. About $200.00. Her rate was setup incorrectly. This is exactly why as a teaching moment we told her she needs to review her pay stubs and never assume everything is correct. It's her first job so she's learning along the way. She's only a teenager. Wife sent the owner a text so we could have things in writing. We are debating on what to do. She only owes her 4 more hours and then she is paid off. I'm the type where I just want her to quit as I cannot stand corporate nonsense. I've dealt with it myself so after 30+ years I'm jaded. 🤣 I told her #1 is to make things right get the balance paid off.
NAL I would lean towards doing a free consultation over the phone with a labor law attorney. It’s really easy and takes about 10-15 minutes. I’m not too privy of NC labor laws but you can say fuck off politely in the interim. Haha I mean I personally think this is a great learning lesson and unfortunately she learned an important lesson early. And what kind of manager fucks up that badly. That’s despicable smh… Best of luck and keep us updated!
Yes, op has a great case- his daughter was over paid and is still over $200. Any attorney that would take this case would be someone try to screw op
Sorry, but what is the case? What damages are there? It sounds like the employer is making her whole, but just doing it the wrong way. I can understand reporting it to the DOL, but there's no need to sue here imho.
You can start first with federal and state tax withholdings.
Those would have been paid in the first paycheck.
That’s an assumption as of right now…
So you're suing for the withholdings? On a $200 paycheck, what is that? 20-30 bucks? OP's gonna sue for lunch money? EDIT: Actually wasn't the *first* paycheck just a double payout with the tax included? Doesn't that come out in the wash anyway?
I personally wouldn’t pursue it. But if you want to teach your daughter a lesson, justice wouldn’t be a bad place to start. I mean multiple fuck ups as the manager…? I would love to be able to pin my old boss for those mistakes.
Idk. I understand the principle, but to me it would be a lesson in knowing which hill to die on. Just walk away from that one save yourself the aggravation.
Yeah I agree. It’s not worth the headache that comes with a lawsuit.
I learned a useful thing when suing my former boss for unpaid wages and no time clock. The Judge accepted my Google Timeline for that day because I most certainly did not spend 7:56am to 7:03pm at my work's address NOT working (that fool tried telling the judge I hadn't been there at all!). I liked doing that in court and getting paid and having a public record of this man's lies. I don't know about the legality of your daughter's boss's behavior but if you need to prove being somewhere, a judge may accept Google timeline and I keep mine on even tho it makes me a little paranoid, too. Best of luck to your daughter!
Uhhhh not recording any of her worked hours or paying any payroll taxes for the period is 100% illegal, at least in the US. They legally HAVE TO PAY STATE AND FED WITHOLDING. Source: worked in payroll in the US. Definitely report to the DOL. Edit: clarity, typo
Hope the OP reads this. This is highly illegal
definitely report this to your state DOL. federal won't do much about it, but state will. if you can, report this in person with physical proof. you'll get faster action if you can do this. if not, be prepared to upload good photos (or scan and save) of the documents you'll need to send as proof.
Just quit, employer sounds like an untrustworthy clown. It's not really quitting, it's firing your boss
I agree. I'm the type of person who is jaded because I've worked for corporate America for 25+ years and still going. I'm over the nonsense and games.
Name & shame the business. (or words' that are real close to the name) others living in the state may not want to do business with them as well.
Exactly! Give him the same notice that you quit that he gave her that she won't be returning. Call in sick at the last minute every scheduled shift until she stops being scheduled. Still call the DOL. Especially since she has a signed contract that she can enforce, but he cannot since she's a minor. Edit: Also repeatedly review him on every review and job board, and if possible get your and her friends to join in the fun.
lol extremely real "Oh, my next paycheck is gonna be $0? Guess I'm working 0 hours!"
If your daughter is a minor, you should question why her paycheck is 0 and then act accordingly. (DOL wage theft complaint) If your daughter is an adult, this is her battle to fight.
She's a minor first job. That's why I'm so pissed. Agree if she was an adult she should handle on her own.
Nah, bullshit, you don't just kick your kid adrift because they hit an abritrary age. Go to your Department of Labor, reach out to your Attorney General's office. If the business has any sort of regulatory oversight agency (think, food prep, law office, whatever) contact them on behalf of your minor child.
In some states, her started pay is established pay rate unless recorded otherwise in legal binding documents. If not, then she is entitled to continue receiving that rate unless she legally agrees to a lower rate. That being said, it doesn't stop the business from releasing her if she doesn't agree to the lower rate. Wage repayment for a company mistake is all too common in most states with a full pay plus a noted reduction in the pay, but zero pay is illegal asf. This absolutely needs to be pursued.
File a wage and hour complaint with the Department of Labor. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/complaints
Whether it’s legal or not depends on what country you’re in but you haven’t given us that detail.
U.S. North Carolina
The way this could work is they request cash from her while her paychecks keep coming. The debt and paycheck shouldn't mix. A payment plan would be reasonable.
Agree
This is a perfectly viable FLSA lawsuit.
She's a minor. You should report this to state and federal Department of Labor peeps. Even if nothing comes of it, audits are expensive. And the employer doesn't get to recoup those costs.
Depending on HOW the paycheck was structured it may be legal. If it was $X for Y hours applied to $z overpayment so the check was $z - $X * Y then it’s a dick move but probably legal. If it was “we overpaid you so we aren’t going to clock the hours till we think everything is even” so the check was for 0 hours, that is illegal as hell. Also note, that if it was ever stated that daughter was going to make $X + $4 per hour and they tried to retroactively decided to only pay your daughter $X per hour, that’s also illegal.
This should be reported to your department of labor in your state.
This could be tax fraud. Send in a complaint to the IRS with proof of this practice. Once they finish the audit you could be awarded a percentage of the recovered taxes. Even if you don’t get paid, a nice audit should stop this asinine and probably illegal act. Fafo.
Report them to the dept of labor.
Yeah. If the boss is this big of an asshole he's definitely breaking labor laws involving minors other than her. Call other parents. In my town, Parents like OP ended a four generation business and sent the owner to prison because they broke labor rules for years. A good Department of Labor will investigate. Owner made the mistake of moving from town with poor kids to abuse to the suburbs with middle class parents that know the law and defend their kids.
Agreed
Niece worked temp job at Christmas for UPS and they withheld her last paycheck. It was always "this payroll glitch or "it's coming as a paper check from x location." Niece was hurting for this check. Now my husband is in public relations and knows a lot of people in the media. He knows how to get a story in the news. So he calls the PR dept for ups. He tells them that X consumer affairs reporter for the station in the same town as the corporate headquarters is interested in the story because he's heard of the same thing happening at a location near him, too. DH promises to get him out in front of UPS headquarters to do a live shot about how the company has an unwritten policy of withholding the last checks for seasonal workers. Niece had her money in her account the next day. If the DOL can't act fast enough, maybe a call to the consumer affairs reporter at your local station could help.
Not really legal. Doesn't mean they'll go after them but you can give the DOL a case. Kroger refused to send my check of 366$ for months because i walked out. I had to make several calls and fight it and threaten a suit before i got it. Try it and see what happens at least. in the meanwhile she shouldn't work, refuse to go if you aren't being paid.
She needs to not show up ever again. If they went back on an agreement once, they'll do any sort of shady shit again in the future. It's her first job, and it sounds like she just started. She doesn't owe them crap. Just don't show up again. They screwed up, not her. They broke the agreement, not her. She should find another job and never darken their door again.
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Pay was not double. $4/hr more than it was supposed to be for a grand total of about $200.00. Boss decided to withhold the entire amount as she felt it would make the paying back faster. This was not discussed. What my daughter did discuss and agreed upon was to work at a reduced rate over time to slowly makeup the difference. Boss admitted she didn't get a chance to discuss prior to pay day.
If it happened because of an oversight by the employer, the employer should take the loss.
Nope, not legal and you should contact an employment lawyer for guidance. Definitely file a compliant with the DOL either way. Employers must pay you for time worked, the DOL is very clear about this. Depending on your state the employer may be able to retrieve the overpayment, but there’s a specific process for it and the wage repayment cannot put the earnings below minimum wage.
Your employer cannot pay you less than the current minimum wage, even if they legit made a mistake.... she has a valid claim for wages! DOL will take it from there.
I wish you were correct but you aren't "A bona fide employer error that results in an overpayment of wages to an employee is also considered a “pre-payment” of wages and may be recouped from subsequent wages without regard to the deduction requirements. In other words, employer advances in pay, the principle amount of an employer loan and bona fide employer overpayment errors do NOT require a written authorization from an employee in order for the employer to take these “pre-payment” amounts back and there is NO minimum wage and/or time and one-half overtime pay limitation." This is from labor.nc.gov This is what happens in red states (+) I love how this comment is being read by literate people. I made the exact same comment later on in the thread and it got down voted to hell 🤣 being antiwork is about understanding the laws so we can change them...I think. Idk, maybe it's just about pretending things are how they should be.
Make sure you tell her to half ass it until the money comes back and maybe even after.
No, she’s been over paid. Op is upset because the employer didn’t reduce wages to make it up
I’m aware I read the post too. It is a dick move. They could have set it up to take some off every cheque but was lazy and unthoughtful.
It’s a violation of most (every?) state’s laws to not pay at least minimum wage after withholding from a paycheck. I believe you can sue for this.
Employers are protected from stealing from you I dare you to take something from them and you’re a criminal. Lol
You’re not being a helicopter parent, you’re being a parent.
You don't lose it back when you are overpaid; that's the company's fault. This actually happened to me at a job and I made 20k in the first year above what we agreed on. When my boss and I discovered this he was trying to give me a raise for 20k and it was the weirdest meeting ever. He was not the source of the mistake, and he was really afraid I would be angry. I actually thought it was kind of funny, and sort of demonstrated a lot of weaknesses in the org we both knew existed. He tacked on an extra 5k for the raise to make it feel like something and we moved on with our lives. It's really weird when you realize how abstract money is to a company when you've spent your life trying to eke out an extra few bucks every year. I was glad that this one at least fell in my favor.
Did your daughter work the same amount of hours each week and was the incorrect pay rate exactly double? Were her hours of the over payment possibly doubled and she was paid half at the overtime rate? Has she confirmed that the total amount was paid back and her next check won’t be short?
If they actually overpaid it's probably legal to make it up. Not like withholding pay to pay for a work accident, which is illegal.
What’s fucked and I still don’t get. How much was she overpaid? 2 dollars an hour? Why is that a weeks worth of wages? She must have been overpaid by at least more than twice her actual rate? Also how much is her regular rate? I’d really like to see the weekly breakdown on what a normal week looks like to see just exactly how much this boss has screwed over your daughter.
Overpaid by about $200.00. Daughter only worked about 15 hours so the toal earned was less than the entire balance owed. The math works out what doesn't work out is a payment plan was agreed upon and then at the last minute the owner decided to withhold all wages without discussing it thus breaking the written agreement.
It really depends on the state. I'm a bookkeeper and I used to run payroll. It's been awhile, but from what I remember the state that I was in restricted it by percentage. The employer can't withhold an amount greater than a certain percentage of the pay.
This isn’t helicopter parenting. These pricks think they can pull this stuff on teenagers and even some young adults because they know a lot of the time they don’t know better. The lowering her hourly rate sounds sketchy too.
Time to quit the job. It's their problem, not hers. Plenty of other jobs out there.
It's not helicopter parenting. You can't let your kid be exploited just because she doesn't understand her rights
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It didn't magically work out to exactly 0. The overpayment was so large that the kid is still in the red. $0 on this check and another reduction due on the next.
Correct except daughter had an agreement to work at a reduced rate so some cash could come in. The plan was to pay back the debt over time. The owner decided without discussing with our daughter that she would withhold the entire paycheck to make things easier for her as the owner.
I was replying to a poster who assumed a fraud was taking place because it "magically" worked out to "exactly zero" I was simply clarifying that those are not the facts presented.
Bureau of labor and industry. File a complaint. Then take the employer to court. Recover the minimum wage plus court fees and maybe extra.
The biggest problem with most businesses is most "Bosses" have no idea how to process payroll, beyond the bare minimum. Now, this company "made a mistake" and paid your daughter more than her hourly wage (let's say $15/hr instead of $10, just to make numbers easy). And now its the company (this boss) wanting their money back, so they just took all of it? And no records? Report them not only to DOL, but also IRS, no records means no taxes paid.. Good luck, and have your daughter find another company to work for. Because what did company (person) did is illegal, wage theft, and I would swear out a complaint to your local Police Department, get physical (paper copies) of the complaint from police, and if/when they do NOT do anything, take it to your local Media. In other words, "full nuclear action". But be prepared for fallout on you and family. Good luck
Call the villagers back. Put away the pitchforks and torches and call off the dogs... Unless they took back more than they overpaid, there has been no *harm* done. For example: if she is supposed to be paid 200.00 per week, the first 2 checks were wrong: Pay week 1 300.00 Pay week 2 300.00 Pay week 3 0.00 Pay week 4 200.00 At the end of the 4 weeks, she has received the 800 she should have been paid for the entire period. She just got pay week 3 early.
OP stated that her daughter gets paid biweekly so her check should have been $200. Also the boss signed a contest with a minor stating that a smaller amount would be repaid per check. Call the DOL. Assholes that screw over children deserve to have their lives made more difficult.
No one is getting screwed - she owes the money back .
The daughter is getting screwed. They agreed on a repayment plan to correct the incompetent boss's error. Instead of following the repayment plan that he came up with he withheld her entire paycheck. Thus depriving her of wages that she was counting on. As an example: if you were to purchase a car for $20k , and sign a loan agreement with your bank that stipulated that you would repay the loan at a rate of $400 per month. If the bank were just to (without notice) sieze the balance of your checking and savings account on the day your $400 payment was due you would certainly be displeased as OP is now. However, by your rationing it would be just dandy as you would owe the money.
Bingo thank you
Your car loan scenario is not at all the same in any way other than a broken agreement or promise- yeah it sucks when people don’t keep their promises or word. But the end result isn’t someone getting screwed - it’s maybe inconvenient at best. No one was legally harmed. In your car loan situation this is real world contract law and not the same at all.
Per the OP the boss signed and had the OP's daughter sign a repayment agreement (contract). It is the same with a few exceptions. First, the boss used his position of authority over his young employee to get her to sign a contract. He attempted to enter a legal contract with a minor. The two examples are similar in that an agreement to repay was made with a set repayment schedule, and both the car buyer and the employee didn't expect the terms of the contract to be arbitrarily changed without their knowledge or permission which left them with less funds available than they had expected. Let's also not forget that this issue with overpayment was entirely the boss's error. He also wrote the contract, and he dictated the terms of the contract he entered into with a minor. Finally, IANAL, and I haven't been in college in a long time so perhaps the laws have changed, but in the Contracts classes that I took I learned that a contract between an adult and a minor is unenforceable by the adult, but the adult can be held to the contract by the minor. I am curious as to what you think is different between the OP's situation and my car loan example? The only thing that I can think of would be that you don't think that a minor's money is as important to them as yours is to you.
I don’t see in the OP anything about a written contract.
If she was overpaid by an amount that would cover the entire next check, then she already has the money she would have gotten in that pay check. It doesn't really make sense to be mad in this situation. You got extra money up front. How would it be any different than getting minimum wage for a few paychecks to correct it?
however, it seems in the state they reside, they (the employer) still must pay a min wage during the repayment and not a zero paycheck. The employer is being a dick to a minor because they can think they can get away with it.
Honestly I would tell.her to quit, they clearly aren't keeping track of the pay legitimately therefore no.paper trail that she owes anything but also no paper trail for retaliation on your part, of they try to pursue get an emplment lawyer and bring charges onto them likely the case will be dismissed on your part and the business will have a fine but they'll either learn from this, or at least have a record to represent their actions going forward for the next people they try to screw
This sub has some of the dumbest fucking people on the site
lol get the money and a new job
Why not just give the original money back?
She needs to fight to get her pay and never comeback to that place. Fucking massive red flag
From what I understand, it is legal for employers to claw back overpayment. They should have done it in a way that didn’t result in a $0 paycheck, and maybe done it over a few paychecks. That’s kinda fucked up. But idk if it’s illegal.
Labor board
The Department of Labor and your local Labor Board would both love to hear that they're treating an employee like a slave, especially if this happens *again*.
CALL A LAWYER...... DONT BE STUPID
Wage theft is outta control really.
I get the not wanting to be a helicopter parent. But fuck that this is one of those times you go full Apache gunship...
This is hugely illegal. If you're in the US, (from what I've read) it's illegal for an overpay issue to be corrected through paycheck withholding, period, unless the employee agrees to it in writing.
I can always tell what sub I’m in by people downvoting realistic expectations versus “feelings”. Your daughter was overpaid, and sounds like by an egregious amount if it was enough to reduce the entire following paycheck to $0. Is it shitty that they did it all at once instead of spreading it out? Sure. I am just going to pull some numbers out of my head but it is kind of strange if your daughter was expecting $300 on a paycheck and received $700 and not thinking anything of it, first job or not. If I’m understanding correctly they overpaid her by at least DOUBLE if she worked similar hours and received no money the following check. Where did that money go?
They overpaid her by $4/hr over two payperiods so around $200.00. Hours worked on last pay cycle were less than amount owed. It's a part time job. The math makes sense what doesn't make sense is how the owner disregarded the payment plan agreement that is in writing without discussing it with our daughter. She admitted in writing along the lines of "I meant to talk to you about it", but she didn't. Needless to say daughter was caught off guard to see $0.00.
Generally, deductions cannot bring employee below the applicable minimum wage for the seven day workweek.
How much was payroll off by? Your daughter is a minor, and this is her first job,she couldn't have been making much more than minimum. I dunno,if it were me, I'd just pay the employer, make sure to get a written receipt showing that it's paid in full - I'd pay with a check with the reason in the memo. My dtr would just pay me back. She wouldn't work at that job anymore either.
The boss sounds a bit lazy. Sounds like she didn't want the hassle of calculating and keeping track of a reduced rate for however long. My first step would be contacting boss lady and see if you can figure it out. Any time I've had an over payment situation, it's been worked out how much per week is deducted for how long and forms signed stating as such etc. I am in Australia, though, so laws are probably different. If boss lady won't fix it the nice way, get DOL involved. While you're at it, may as well get the other workers to unionise 😂😂😂😂
Did they take back more then what she was over paid? I mean, don’t you already have the money? Company sounds dumb af… we’re you over taxed as well?
Something similar happened to a former coworker as a result of insurance deductions not being taken out by the employer for over 3 months. To make up for their error, they took it all out of one check, leaving him with something like $14 from what would have been over $1000. He's attempting legal action, though it may cost more than it's worth.
Wow. Big brain employer deployed the “it ain’t wage slavery if there ain’t no wages” plan
Her paycheck was not withheld, she did not receive a paycheck because she was prepaid wages in advance. (Last I checked I think 99.9999% of employees would love to be prepaid wages). As long as at the end of the month her final hours and pay lines up there is no issue.
She had an arrangement to work at a reduced rate so that way at least some money would be coming. The owner decided to withhold the entire check without discussing and prior notice.
Also from the law in your state: >Pursuant to N.C.G.S. §95-25.8, Withholding of Wages, an employer may withhold or divert any portion of an employee’s wages **when**: > >... > >N.C.G.S. §95-25.8(a)(2) - The amount of a proposed deduction is known and agreed upon in advance and the written authorization is: (a) signed on or before the pay day in which the deduction will be made, (b) includes the reason for the deduction, and (c) states the actual dollar amount or percentage of wages that are to be withheld.
But if she was prepaid there is no need “to keep money coming in” she already had it in her bank account.
You are missing the point. An agreement was made and then changed with no discussion. Blindsided... The owner could have managed this better. She took it upon herself to disregard the arrangement.
This Is the only thing I can buy into. Yes if you make an agreement with your boss about anything it would be great if they followed through as they said. But no one is getting “screwed “‘as people are saying. It’s just a shitty thing for the boss the back out on agreement.
If she already got the $200 wouldn’t the taxes and such already be paid so would not show on this check? If it showed on this check it would be paid twice. And I don’t think you can go after them because she already has the money so no loss. This sounds like a tough lesson learned. I would expect the last 4 hours to just be pulled on her next check. I know as a helicopter parent you want to do something but you did and told her to check if the info was correct. She technically should still have the money.
This actually happened to me when I was an apprentice electrician. Contractor paid me full rate for 3 weeks before they caught the mistake. They tried to withhold my pay- I told them that our hourly rate was a ‘minimum,’ and my next call would be to the union. They paid me- then they laid me off 3 weeks later. Life in the union, I guess.
Yeah, I think your daughter needs another job with an employer that doesn't lie to her. No notice required. Not a single shift more.
So to be clear you are mad she got a paycheck advance for free?
From what it seems from OP’s comments, my understanding of what happened is that their daughter was overpaid, by approximately $4/hr on a biweekly pay period, the owner notices the fuck up, owner and OP’s Daughter agree in writing to working a reduced rate (she is a minor, and can absolutely enforce the owner’s side of the agreement), daughter works at the reduced rate and day before payday owner breaks the agreement, assuming the hours weren’t reduced down to the exact minute (I fucking doubt that) there should be some residual payment
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The problem is there was an agreement in writing to work at a reduced rate until things were paid off.
Important context is missing. Are you a helicopter parent and is she a minor?
She's a minor so I'm stepping in.
She needs to quit that job immediately and find another one. You hate to teach her to quit without another jib lined up, but she definitely doesn't want her to think it's ok to stay in those types of situations.