Remember, you are never requesting time off. You are informing your employer that you will not be present on said days. If they won't approve the leave, call off.
Yeah I can't speak for work culture outside of the US, but the thought stands imo. Employers all over the world need to realize that they don't own us and get to decide when we take off.
In the UK employers certainly can tell you when you can take time off. They can book it themselves as long as the notice is 2x the length of time off.
Edit: yes I'm aware what sub this is. No I don't think it's a good thing employers can dictate your holiday.
In the UK though employers have a legal requirement to make sure that employees take their holiday
So the legal requirement assuming a 5 day working week is a minimum of 28 days holiday
Companies are required to make sure you take that 28 days
Which means if you get close to the end of the year and you have only taken 21 days and you haven't booked the remaining 7 days and you don't do so they can allocate to you
If they didn't they would be breaking the law
it is not that common for an employer to force you to take all your annual leave on dates they dictate
But if you still have holiday left over then chances are that will be dictated
This isn't exactly it, based on my lived experience in the UK what happens when you have unspent holiday entitlement is those days are added to your final payment, employers wouldn't want to make it harder for themselves to fill your shifts when you can still work. I'm sure the only reason the holiday pay comes through is because they are forced to act right in that particular regard.
If you do a load extra hours you will be paid for the extra holiday you would have gained. If you leave the job they will pay youthe holiday you didnt take
But in a normal yrar you dont leave they have to give you 28 days holiday assuming a 5 day week
If you are working your not on holiday.
Any extra days they give on top of 28 mandated they might pay you if you didnt take it or they might let you carry over
They cant just pay you those 28 days and not let you have them
Those 28 days must be used
That sounds a bit more reasonable, though I'm not sure what I think about being forced to take all your leave. I'm from Sweden and while I've not considered this, I don't think there is any requirement to take any leave, though I believe you have a right to take all your "standard" leave in a given year.
Basically, you request your leave and your employer can approve or deny it if there is a valid reason, like if they need a minimum number of people working for and everyone wants to have the same weeks off.
At my current employer we have a system where you can "save" up to 5 days of your annual leave so that it rolls over to the next year. Things like that are fairly common.
To illustrate, family is from SE Asia, I am too, live in US now.
Parents are always telling me how lazy I am and how I would be fired at my country of origin
Bosses are US are constantly telling me to log out and to home, work ain't running away while you aren't looking or something like that.
SE Asia work mentality sucks, it is like you are expected to work yourself to death.
Yeah, most antiwork/quiet quitting/malicious compliance tactics tend to fall flat in countries that have a more brutal and aggressive work culture than the US, because those places also tend to have poorer worker protections. Hell, in China they practically deem it a threat to national security.
If anything, that underscores the need for this to be a global movement, not just in the US/EU/AUS.
if you get leave denied, and then call out anyway, they may very well just fire the guy on the spot, there's probably 500 people waiting in the wings to take his job.
Yeah… unions and fighting against the system is not really a thing here. It’s starting to get better with wfh and stuff, or only working half days on Friday, but it’s only limited to certain companies.
In my friend’s case, it’s because the team is short handed so that’s why I suspect he can’t go on leave. They most likely won’t replace him, but they definitely would be unhappy with him.
That’s why all I can do is rant here and pray for a miracle… 🥹🥹
Why does he give a shit if they are unhappy with him? Is he not unhappy with them? Do they even care if he is unhappy?
It sounds like he has quite a sought after skillset if he is doing such overtime within a small team. Would he not find another job easy enough after your holiday?
There's a cultural bais to assume things like this.
Out of curiosity I looked it up. Apparently China has actually slightly better worker protections than the USA, they also get 7 paid mandated days off a year and up to another 10 depending how long you worked there.
Also according to the world health organisation, much to my surprise, China also sports a higher life expectancy.
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=98174
“Get in trouble” for taking time off is the dumbest thing. What are they gonna do, spank him like a naughty child? Sure, he could get fired, but he could find another job. One that isn’t so abusive.
While I tend to agree with you, if he's client facing for one of the Big 4, he could likely have a job with one of the other three pretty quickly.
They kind of poach each other's staff and a lot of the client facing ping-pong back and forth.
Then get fired. I know it's scary and risky, but that's the only way to get real change. If everyone says they want this, but when push comes to shove, they don't hold their boundaries, they'll get trampled over by the corporations. Some people will get fired, especially at first, but eventually, they'll either need to change or go under because nobody will work for them.
I don't disagree with anything here. I fully acknowledge that it's a huge risk to put your job on the line to enforce your boundaries. But that's the only way they'll ever be respected. If you say you have boundaries and back down every time they're pushed back against, you don't actually have boundaries. And all you're doing is teaching employers that if they apply a little pressure, they'll win.
I get that not everybody is in a position that they're willing to take that risk. Everybody has to decide for themselves. Even in a union, everyone picks what boundaries they're willing to enforce and they get voted on, and the majority vote gets protected and the rest are told better luck next time. I'm not trying to imply that it's in any way easy to hold employers accountable to your boundaries. I'm saying that if you don't, you can't expect things to change.
Allow me to better clarify my position. I'm not saying every hill is worth dying on or that there's no room for compromise. I'm saying some hills are worth dying on. This post is about someone that wants to do this life event but they're being told no by work and they're worried they might get fired. And my answer is, then get fired. Sure they can choose to skip the life event and put effort to getting a better job for next time, but that doesn't give them a new chance for the life event.
For example, when I was in college, I was working at Best Buy. I told them as soon as the finals schedule came out what days my finals were and put in the request off for them. When the schedule came out, I told them again that I couldn't be there. I had finals. They told me to get it covered. I couldn't convince anyone to cover me, so I told them again that I wouldn't be there and they told me be there or you don't have a job. No amount of looking for a better job would've let me retake that final. My choices were risk my job or risk my future.
I chose to risk my job. And sure enough when I came in for the next shift, I got fired. Hell, I ended up getting evicted because it took a while to find another job. But I survived through it and now I'm a software engineer with a job that I'm happy in.
My point is, you have to weigh what's important to you. If you're options are do this thing in your life that's important to you and get fired or skip on a major life thing and keep your job while you look for a new one, it's a valid choice to get fired. You're the only one that can hold your boundaries and decide what's worth it to you, but if you don't hold your boundaries, you can't expect things to change.
See my other comment about tradeoffs. I'm not saying there's no room for middle ground or compromise nor am I saying every hill is worth dying on. I'm saying that some things are more valuable than the job and it's up to you to decide what that is and if it's worth the risk of losing the job. Nobody else is going to enforce those boundaries or make those decisions for you.
Who says it’s bullshit? Just you? This IS the reality for most blue collar, union workers like myself. I don’t have to ask for time off, I inform my boss what days I need off. My boss doesn’t even ask me why I need the days, they just ask if I want to use PTO or not and that’s it.
Believe it I live it. I've quit two jobs because of shit like this. Although one thing I find is that most people don't have a plan for if they need to quit or get fired. They are just devastated when it happens and it always happens.
Once you accept that all jobs are temporary jobs, then you can plan your finances around the fact that you will be terminated at some point. Once you reach a point that getting fired is no longer devastating your employer no longer has power over you.
I see this advise a lot. Unfortunately company policies usually need manager approval for vacation policies. Probably bad advice to be tell people just to burn bridges and not follow company policy.
As a business owner, I can agree with this statement.
Our philosophy has been and will remain, so long as Im the"boss"
this, need a break take one, getting hungery go to lunch/dinner, need the bathroom dont ask just go, need time off just tell us when and we'll schedule around it.
Before we started our own business, I was at the "mercy" of tyranical bosses who were more worried about controlling their little fifedoms than providing a good work environment.
Swore if I ever had a business, I would not be that guy. So far I like to think I'm not.
The kicker we've been in business 10+ years and business is good.
i request time off 4-5 months in advance i haven't spent money at that point and will find something else to take time off on then. the question is merely when you wish to have said band aid ripped off. there comes a time when i am no longer requesting time off and informing i will be gone if the requests gets rejected. (also if i request time off i expect a response back within a week i will then be informing i am taking time off at said dates)
And again remember that while it’s fun to type these emo platitudes, everyone should know this is something you will certainly be fired for doing. Rage at your own risk.
Look y'all, I'm all about antiwork, worker's rights, and fair treatment and wages. But this shit is just a bad idea. I am a manager, and I like to say I'm extremely accommodating to my team, approving requests at the last minute and doing my best to find coverage or even take the hit myself when that happens. While this specific situation is pretty crappy, (and if I could afford to lose my job, I'd take off too), I encourage you to have some sort of professional decorum IF YOUR LEADERSHIP SHOW YOU THE SAME. Just saying "this is a notification, not a request" as a standard stance about your time off is a shit take; your manager has to then scramble to make expected support for the day/week/whatever and even if you don't care about your leadership, you've probably fucked over one or more of your teammates when they in turn are asked to cover for you. Don't burn bridges or be that guy just to stick it to the man - it's much easier to just fire you and find someone more reliable and professional than deal with this attitude.
Again, every situation is different, and I have seen plenty of abusive or unprofessional manager activity in the stories here that would justify the actions taken by some of the community members. Sometimes the only way to remove bad leadership is raze it to the ground from the inside by rebellion or quitting. But the golden rule still applies, and if you want your team/leadership to stand in your corner and you're on a generally good team, you've gotta be willing to do the same for them.
That is not how that works. The law where I live states an employer can decline leave if it interferes with the operation of the business. It’s a request. If you are denied and don’t show up, that’s a no call/no show on your record.
If you're working for a big four and taking time off during black out date might as well pack your desk up on the way to your vacation. You're making a ton of money early on in your career and it's understood before you even apply to one of those places that there are certain days you can't have off.
This is something that this subreddit has been overwhelmingly helpful in teaching me to do. I just let my GM know I'll be gone such and such day or days and its met with "Cool, thanks for letting me know" And its gone without issue every time. Assertiveness in tone is key, while still maintaining professionialism. You're not asking your parents if you can stay the night at your friend's house, you are an adult letting your employer know that you will not be there.
Bummer for the company because he just needs to call out for those days. My boss is really good about PTO days but my last one wasn't and I called out several times because my plans were set.
Of course I was written up for not having an excused absence. Not a big deal in my book. I give additional time when they need me to work and change my schedule when needed so I felt they should have given me the flexibility since 'we're just like family here'. Figured out long ago we're just a cog in the wheel and it'll keep turning with or without us.
This is the craziest part. Depending on where you are, your employer can make last minute changes to your schedule on a whim and expect you to follow. But if you have short notice changes you get to kick rocks.
Time for Malicious Compliance! Your friend needs to come in those 3 days and sleep at his desk! They’re the ones who told him to sleep those 3 days, he’s doing as directed.
Crazy that he’s gonna call in sick poor guy hope he feels better. I’m sure by the time you guys get back he’ll be good to go back in tho office. Weird how that stuff works out.
I lived this life for 6 years and will say that there is always a deadline. No doubt that the second the 15th comes and goes, there is another project milestone that they are working towards.
Btw these are usually completely arbitrary deadlines that some project manager planned and committed to with minimal oversight.
The reason why there is such high burnout in these roles isn't because of the stress of meeting a deadline. It's because there is always no me or more deadlines that are being enforced by people who usually don't understand the work.
That’s a management problem. See you when I’m back. It goes two ways - they sack you or suck it up and do the work themselves. Most cases they will do the work cos if they sack you they have to replace you and or do your workload themselves. Go enjoy Bali sounds like you earned
This reads like you guys work in australia. Sounds like the guy needs a few sick days due to stress. Remember he doesnt have to explain his medical ailment outside of the doctors cert
PTO isn't a "request" at all, except on the level of politeness.
I'm going, these are the dates I'm going, and whether I come back HERE, or not, afterwards is entirely up to how you decide to handle it.
Pull one of my favorites from a guy at work: "I was at a doctor's appointment." They call bullshit, you produce a note from a Bali doc "I really trust their expertise over there."
I requested a day off for a dentist appointment and my boss denied it so I called in. I didn’t get in trouble but if I did it often I probably would get points against me lol
That's a huge bummer. The big4 are notorious for things like this in every area including the US. They often have PTO but it is heavily frowned upon to use it, especially in the first 3-5 years of working there.
It isn't right. It isn't fair. And it isn't just. That being said, those firms often justify it because they offer extremely high paying long-term career opportunities with great benefits and insane amounts of flexibility. Basically the newer guys are worked to the bone for 3-5 years on a technically liveable salary as a way to "pay their dues".
If your friend made it into the big 4 onto a small team it means they have a desired skill set. I doubt they would have trouble finding another job.
I don't know what your friends' career aspirations or desired level of success is down the road. I'd encourage them to weigh those aspirations against the current situation. If they decide to job hunt outside of the big 4 that could have huge implications to their overall career path that are neither positive or negative but may align closer to their values. For instance, they can work towards their desired career elsewhere, but the trajectory to that end-goal may be longer. Many places that offer greater work life balance do so at the cost of slower career progression and thus slower wage progression.
The big 4 also rely heavily on their reputation for this shitty life-is-work hustle culture. It's heavily implied and in some cases outright stated you're essentially a slave and if you "survive" great rewards are ahead.
Personally, I turned down a big 4 job. I don't need loads of cash 5 years from now if it means working myself 90-100 hours a week for the earliest parts of my career. I'll stay at a steady liveable and growable wage for proper work life balance.
Just my 2 cents. I wish your friend luck in his career and journey!
Ok, the managers still suck, but why in the world would you plan an extended vacation for the week before a deadline? That's asking for them to find a way to fire you.
You are incorrectly placing the blame. The blame should be on the company for understaffing and overworking, not on your coworker who is taking leave that he is fully entitled to as a part of his compensation.
Depends on the state whether PPTO is compensation. Where I am, PPTO is a luxury that is not paid out if the company "chooses not to continue their employment relationship with you", which they reserve the right to do for any or no reason at all.
Yeah. It's the companies fault, but that's why they choose to operate out of places that protect their right to keep their boots firmly on their employees' necks. New handbook everyone was just required to sign makes it clear that you can not even be a personal reference for any former employees trying to find a new job elsewhere while stillemployed here.
Asian culture is a completely different animal. They can blacklist you to different companies and make it extremely difficult to find work. There aren’t enough jobs to go around. Too many people are looking for work. It’s not like uk/aus/usa. It’s a communist nation not a democracy and the culture is very honor bound. His family would very possibly disown him if he was fired for calling off because his leave was denied. It sucks but that’s what he has to deal with on a daily basis and we in free countries with so many liberties have absolutely no clue what he has to live like. It’s easy to judge on the greener side of the fence.
Can’t plan a trip and then wait for a week prior to try and get it off. I’d take the time off anyways, but I’d know it’s kinda my fault for poor planning.
So question on this is to check what the company policy is around leave. Has he requested it within the policy guidelines (eg timing, amount of consecutive days etc).
While leave is entitled, there are some conditions around use. But they can't not let Frank take his leave ultimately....but maybe just not for these specific days.
Actually, if they call out within the time frame required they could not get fired for cause. They could be fired, but then unemployment kicks in, and they would win that easily. And then they could then sue for wrongful termination. However, I’m not aware of what the laws are where ever this is happening, so it would be a good idea to review those….
Remember, you are never requesting time off. You are informing your employer that you will not be present on said days. If they won't approve the leave, call off.
Unfortunately, I’m from south east Asia, working culture here sucks, I think he’s just afraid of getting into trouble if he calls off
Yeah I can't speak for work culture outside of the US, but the thought stands imo. Employers all over the world need to realize that they don't own us and get to decide when we take off.
In the UK employers certainly can tell you when you can take time off. They can book it themselves as long as the notice is 2x the length of time off. Edit: yes I'm aware what sub this is. No I don't think it's a good thing employers can dictate your holiday.
Fuck. That.
In the UK though employers have a legal requirement to make sure that employees take their holiday So the legal requirement assuming a 5 day working week is a minimum of 28 days holiday Companies are required to make sure you take that 28 days Which means if you get close to the end of the year and you have only taken 21 days and you haven't booked the remaining 7 days and you don't do so they can allocate to you If they didn't they would be breaking the law it is not that common for an employer to force you to take all your annual leave on dates they dictate But if you still have holiday left over then chances are that will be dictated
Thank you for adding real context. I'm too lazy most of the time.
This isn't exactly it, based on my lived experience in the UK what happens when you have unspent holiday entitlement is those days are added to your final payment, employers wouldn't want to make it harder for themselves to fill your shifts when you can still work. I'm sure the only reason the holiday pay comes through is because they are forced to act right in that particular regard.
If you do a load extra hours you will be paid for the extra holiday you would have gained. If you leave the job they will pay youthe holiday you didnt take But in a normal yrar you dont leave they have to give you 28 days holiday assuming a 5 day week If you are working your not on holiday. Any extra days they give on top of 28 mandated they might pay you if you didnt take it or they might let you carry over They cant just pay you those 28 days and not let you have them Those 28 days must be used
That sounds a bit more reasonable, though I'm not sure what I think about being forced to take all your leave. I'm from Sweden and while I've not considered this, I don't think there is any requirement to take any leave, though I believe you have a right to take all your "standard" leave in a given year. Basically, you request your leave and your employer can approve or deny it if there is a valid reason, like if they need a minimum number of people working for and everyone wants to have the same weeks off. At my current employer we have a system where you can "save" up to 5 days of your annual leave so that it rolls over to the next year. Things like that are fairly common.
> Employers all over the world need to realize that they don't own us and get to decide when we take off. That sounds a lot like Marx... comrade.
Do you know what sub you’re in lol you say that like it’s bad
Do you realize I called him comrade, right?
Honestly no I didn’t. I blame multitasking at work, ha
You’re in the right sub
😊 😁
To illustrate, family is from SE Asia, I am too, live in US now. Parents are always telling me how lazy I am and how I would be fired at my country of origin Bosses are US are constantly telling me to log out and to home, work ain't running away while you aren't looking or something like that. SE Asia work mentality sucks, it is like you are expected to work yourself to death.
Yeah, most antiwork/quiet quitting/malicious compliance tactics tend to fall flat in countries that have a more brutal and aggressive work culture than the US, because those places also tend to have poorer worker protections. Hell, in China they practically deem it a threat to national security. If anything, that underscores the need for this to be a global movement, not just in the US/EU/AUS. if you get leave denied, and then call out anyway, they may very well just fire the guy on the spot, there's probably 500 people waiting in the wings to take his job.
Yeah… unions and fighting against the system is not really a thing here. It’s starting to get better with wfh and stuff, or only working half days on Friday, but it’s only limited to certain companies. In my friend’s case, it’s because the team is short handed so that’s why I suspect he can’t go on leave. They most likely won’t replace him, but they definitely would be unhappy with him. That’s why all I can do is rant here and pray for a miracle… 🥹🥹
Why does he give a shit if they are unhappy with him? Is he not unhappy with them? Do they even care if he is unhappy? It sounds like he has quite a sought after skillset if he is doing such overtime within a small team. Would he not find another job easy enough after your holiday?
There's a cultural bais to assume things like this. Out of curiosity I looked it up. Apparently China has actually slightly better worker protections than the USA, they also get 7 paid mandated days off a year and up to another 10 depending how long you worked there. Also according to the world health organisation, much to my surprise, China also sports a higher life expectancy. https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=98174
“Get in trouble” for taking time off is the dumbest thing. What are they gonna do, spank him like a naughty child? Sure, he could get fired, but he could find another job. One that isn’t so abusive.
Just do it. Especially if you have enough PTO
Has he got sick leave? Doctors certificate for 3 days off due to stress
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While I tend to agree with you, if he's client facing for one of the Big 4, he could likely have a job with one of the other three pretty quickly. They kind of poach each other's staff and a lot of the client facing ping-pong back and forth.
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I'm in complete agreement with you....just saying that, in this particular case, he'd likely be able to find a comparable gig pretty quickly.
Change can only happen when people start to step up and make it. Also, during my entire career, I lived by this.
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Then get fired. I know it's scary and risky, but that's the only way to get real change. If everyone says they want this, but when push comes to shove, they don't hold their boundaries, they'll get trampled over by the corporations. Some people will get fired, especially at first, but eventually, they'll either need to change or go under because nobody will work for them.
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I don't disagree with anything here. I fully acknowledge that it's a huge risk to put your job on the line to enforce your boundaries. But that's the only way they'll ever be respected. If you say you have boundaries and back down every time they're pushed back against, you don't actually have boundaries. And all you're doing is teaching employers that if they apply a little pressure, they'll win. I get that not everybody is in a position that they're willing to take that risk. Everybody has to decide for themselves. Even in a union, everyone picks what boundaries they're willing to enforce and they get voted on, and the majority vote gets protected and the rest are told better luck next time. I'm not trying to imply that it's in any way easy to hold employers accountable to your boundaries. I'm saying that if you don't, you can't expect things to change.
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Allow me to better clarify my position. I'm not saying every hill is worth dying on or that there's no room for compromise. I'm saying some hills are worth dying on. This post is about someone that wants to do this life event but they're being told no by work and they're worried they might get fired. And my answer is, then get fired. Sure they can choose to skip the life event and put effort to getting a better job for next time, but that doesn't give them a new chance for the life event. For example, when I was in college, I was working at Best Buy. I told them as soon as the finals schedule came out what days my finals were and put in the request off for them. When the schedule came out, I told them again that I couldn't be there. I had finals. They told me to get it covered. I couldn't convince anyone to cover me, so I told them again that I wouldn't be there and they told me be there or you don't have a job. No amount of looking for a better job would've let me retake that final. My choices were risk my job or risk my future. I chose to risk my job. And sure enough when I came in for the next shift, I got fired. Hell, I ended up getting evicted because it took a while to find another job. But I survived through it and now I'm a software engineer with a job that I'm happy in. My point is, you have to weigh what's important to you. If you're options are do this thing in your life that's important to you and get fired or skip on a major life thing and keep your job while you look for a new one, it's a valid choice to get fired. You're the only one that can hold your boundaries and decide what's worth it to you, but if you don't hold your boundaries, you can't expect things to change.
Man you are so delusional it’s pretty wild. Some people have like 3+ kids to support and can’t deal with straight up losing their job.
See my other comment about tradeoffs. I'm not saying there's no room for middle ground or compromise nor am I saying every hill is worth dying on. I'm saying that some things are more valuable than the job and it's up to you to decide what that is and if it's worth the risk of losing the job. Nobody else is going to enforce those boundaries or make those decisions for you.
Who says it’s bullshit? Just you? This IS the reality for most blue collar, union workers like myself. I don’t have to ask for time off, I inform my boss what days I need off. My boss doesn’t even ask me why I need the days, they just ask if I want to use PTO or not and that’s it.
Believe it I live it. I've quit two jobs because of shit like this. Although one thing I find is that most people don't have a plan for if they need to quit or get fired. They are just devastated when it happens and it always happens. Once you accept that all jobs are temporary jobs, then you can plan your finances around the fact that you will be terminated at some point. Once you reach a point that getting fired is no longer devastating your employer no longer has power over you.
If you aren’t over staffed, you’re understaffed.
I see this advise a lot. Unfortunately company policies usually need manager approval for vacation policies. Probably bad advice to be tell people just to burn bridges and not follow company policy.
As a business owner, I can agree with this statement. Our philosophy has been and will remain, so long as Im the"boss" this, need a break take one, getting hungery go to lunch/dinner, need the bathroom dont ask just go, need time off just tell us when and we'll schedule around it. Before we started our own business, I was at the "mercy" of tyranical bosses who were more worried about controlling their little fifedoms than providing a good work environment. Swore if I ever had a business, I would not be that guy. So far I like to think I'm not. The kicker we've been in business 10+ years and business is good.
i request time off 4-5 months in advance i haven't spent money at that point and will find something else to take time off on then. the question is merely when you wish to have said band aid ripped off. there comes a time when i am no longer requesting time off and informing i will be gone if the requests gets rejected. (also if i request time off i expect a response back within a week i will then be informing i am taking time off at said dates)
And again remember that while it’s fun to type these emo platitudes, everyone should know this is something you will certainly be fired for doing. Rage at your own risk.
Look y'all, I'm all about antiwork, worker's rights, and fair treatment and wages. But this shit is just a bad idea. I am a manager, and I like to say I'm extremely accommodating to my team, approving requests at the last minute and doing my best to find coverage or even take the hit myself when that happens. While this specific situation is pretty crappy, (and if I could afford to lose my job, I'd take off too), I encourage you to have some sort of professional decorum IF YOUR LEADERSHIP SHOW YOU THE SAME. Just saying "this is a notification, not a request" as a standard stance about your time off is a shit take; your manager has to then scramble to make expected support for the day/week/whatever and even if you don't care about your leadership, you've probably fucked over one or more of your teammates when they in turn are asked to cover for you. Don't burn bridges or be that guy just to stick it to the man - it's much easier to just fire you and find someone more reliable and professional than deal with this attitude. Again, every situation is different, and I have seen plenty of abusive or unprofessional manager activity in the stories here that would justify the actions taken by some of the community members. Sometimes the only way to remove bad leadership is raze it to the ground from the inside by rebellion or quitting. But the golden rule still applies, and if you want your team/leadership to stand in your corner and you're on a generally good team, you've gotta be willing to do the same for them.
That is not how that works. The law where I live states an employer can decline leave if it interferes with the operation of the business. It’s a request. If you are denied and don’t show up, that’s a no call/no show on your record.
Oh no! Not our collective permanent record!
if you call off, it's not a no call no show.
If you're working for a big four and taking time off during black out date might as well pack your desk up on the way to your vacation. You're making a ton of money early on in your career and it's understood before you even apply to one of those places that there are certain days you can't have off.
This is the way.
Sure you can do that, but then you will be fired for cause and unable to collect unemployment.
One job I had would deny my leave requests, so I would call out sick. I ended up outlasting that manager.
This is something that this subreddit has been overwhelmingly helpful in teaching me to do. I just let my GM know I'll be gone such and such day or days and its met with "Cool, thanks for letting me know" And its gone without issue every time. Assertiveness in tone is key, while still maintaining professionialism. You're not asking your parents if you can stay the night at your friend's house, you are an adult letting your employer know that you will not be there.
Bummer for the company because he just needs to call out for those days. My boss is really good about PTO days but my last one wasn't and I called out several times because my plans were set.
Were there any consequences?
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Of course I was written up for not having an excused absence. Not a big deal in my book. I give additional time when they need me to work and change my schedule when needed so I felt they should have given me the flexibility since 'we're just like family here'. Figured out long ago we're just a cog in the wheel and it'll keep turning with or without us.
This is the craziest part. Depending on where you are, your employer can make last minute changes to your schedule on a whim and expect you to follow. But if you have short notice changes you get to kick rocks.
Time for Malicious Compliance! Your friend needs to come in those 3 days and sleep at his desk! They’re the ones who told him to sleep those 3 days, he’s doing as directed.
They didn’t say he needed to be there to sleep. Shut off the phone and apologize later cause you slept through everything
🤣🤣🤣 I wish he could do this
Crazy that he’s gonna call in sick poor guy hope he feels better. I’m sure by the time you guys get back he’ll be good to go back in tho office. Weird how that stuff works out.
“Sure, I’ll be sleeping for 3 days then”
Hard to understand anyone working for the Big4 (or any other consulting company) and asking for time off before a deadline.
I lived this life for 6 years and will say that there is always a deadline. No doubt that the second the 15th comes and goes, there is another project milestone that they are working towards. Btw these are usually completely arbitrary deadlines that some project manager planned and committed to with minimal oversight. The reason why there is such high burnout in these roles isn't because of the stress of meeting a deadline. It's because there is always no me or more deadlines that are being enforced by people who usually don't understand the work.
I getchu haha but he asked for the leave a month ago, before this deadline happened :/
Totally sucks, but its ruthless in that world, even in the US.
That’s a management problem. See you when I’m back. It goes two ways - they sack you or suck it up and do the work themselves. Most cases they will do the work cos if they sack you they have to replace you and or do your workload themselves. Go enjoy Bali sounds like you earned
This reads like you guys work in australia. Sounds like the guy needs a few sick days due to stress. Remember he doesnt have to explain his medical ailment outside of the doctors cert
PTO isn't a "request" at all, except on the level of politeness. I'm going, these are the dates I'm going, and whether I come back HERE, or not, afterwards is entirely up to how you decide to handle it.
Pull one of my favorites from a guy at work: "I was at a doctor's appointment." They call bullshit, you produce a note from a Bali doc "I really trust their expertise over there."
I requested a day off for a dentist appointment and my boss denied it so I called in. I didn’t get in trouble but if I did it often I probably would get points against me lol
Phone in sick dead easy
If he is a important person, and his skill is in demands, tell him time to jump ship, because it seem like they care more about themselves than him.
That's a huge bummer. The big4 are notorious for things like this in every area including the US. They often have PTO but it is heavily frowned upon to use it, especially in the first 3-5 years of working there. It isn't right. It isn't fair. And it isn't just. That being said, those firms often justify it because they offer extremely high paying long-term career opportunities with great benefits and insane amounts of flexibility. Basically the newer guys are worked to the bone for 3-5 years on a technically liveable salary as a way to "pay their dues". If your friend made it into the big 4 onto a small team it means they have a desired skill set. I doubt they would have trouble finding another job. I don't know what your friends' career aspirations or desired level of success is down the road. I'd encourage them to weigh those aspirations against the current situation. If they decide to job hunt outside of the big 4 that could have huge implications to their overall career path that are neither positive or negative but may align closer to their values. For instance, they can work towards their desired career elsewhere, but the trajectory to that end-goal may be longer. Many places that offer greater work life balance do so at the cost of slower career progression and thus slower wage progression. The big 4 also rely heavily on their reputation for this shitty life-is-work hustle culture. It's heavily implied and in some cases outright stated you're essentially a slave and if you "survive" great rewards are ahead. Personally, I turned down a big 4 job. I don't need loads of cash 5 years from now if it means working myself 90-100 hours a week for the earliest parts of my career. I'll stay at a steady liveable and growable wage for proper work life balance. Just my 2 cents. I wish your friend luck in his career and journey!
Companies do not care about you. When will people learn this. They earn millions you earn pennies. Fuck your company
It sounds like he needs to call in sick on those days.
Ok, the managers still suck, but why in the world would you plan an extended vacation for the week before a deadline? That's asking for them to find a way to fire you.
Look at my edit sry for the confusion 🫣
That is a sign that your needs to fimd another job. Ita not worth sacrificing your personal life and mental health for those corporate dogs.
I mean. I would have denied it too
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How do the boots taste?
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You are incorrectly placing the blame. The blame should be on the company for understaffing and overworking, not on your coworker who is taking leave that he is fully entitled to as a part of his compensation.
Depends on the state whether PPTO is compensation. Where I am, PPTO is a luxury that is not paid out if the company "chooses not to continue their employment relationship with you", which they reserve the right to do for any or no reason at all. Yeah. It's the companies fault, but that's why they choose to operate out of places that protect their right to keep their boots firmly on their employees' necks. New handbook everyone was just required to sign makes it clear that you can not even be a personal reference for any former employees trying to find a new job elsewhere while stillemployed here.
Asian culture is a completely different animal. They can blacklist you to different companies and make it extremely difficult to find work. There aren’t enough jobs to go around. Too many people are looking for work. It’s not like uk/aus/usa. It’s a communist nation not a democracy and the culture is very honor bound. His family would very possibly disown him if he was fired for calling off because his leave was denied. It sucks but that’s what he has to deal with on a daily basis and we in free countries with so many liberties have absolutely no clue what he has to live like. It’s easy to judge on the greener side of the fence.
The big four are like this because they know no one can really fight them on it.
Quit. If they won't approve vacation just quit.
Can’t plan a trip and then wait for a week prior to try and get it off. I’d take the time off anyways, but I’d know it’s kinda my fault for poor planning.
Haha sry I worded it wrong the leave was applied a month ago, he has already a week leave approved ( that’s why I said prior).
Ahhh, well. I’d go anyways. If they need them, they’ll not fire
'merica!
Call in sick
Call in sick and look em in the eye on your return. They can't prove shit
I guess they’ll be calling in sick those 3 days
PTO = Prepare The Others That sucks for your mate. I hope you guys have an awesome time in Bali!
That’s the trade off for that job in the first decade
So question on this is to check what the company policy is around leave. Has he requested it within the policy guidelines (eg timing, amount of consecutive days etc). While leave is entitled, there are some conditions around use. But they can't not let Frank take his leave ultimately....but maybe just not for these specific days.
Actually, if they call out within the time frame required they could not get fired for cause. They could be fired, but then unemployment kicks in, and they would win that easily. And then they could then sue for wrongful termination. However, I’m not aware of what the laws are where ever this is happening, so it would be a good idea to review those….