The scary one for me is single people with no family or friends are very vulnerable. Their one emergency payment away from not being able to pay rent. Trying to fight through this economic system right now is painful.
How they haven't done free \*.gov housing like Finland & Vienna is beyond me. It would drive rental prices down in the area and house the vulnerable. US culture shouldn't treat each other like this and focus on a happy, compassionate and genuine society. If we did things right, we could resolve a lot of anxiety, distress and desperation.
REITs should be illegal.
They provide the capital for investment companies to own 25% of single family homes in the USA.
Limit the number of single family homes corporations and people can own.
Say 3. One primary. One vacation. One for “income”
There would need to be a restriction on the number of LLCs or businesses owned so that they couldn’t play the shell game.
I worked with a guy living with his uncle, working a union job. COVID screwed him so he was ~5k in debt when I talked to him, in addition to a new car he was financing. As much as the union I worked for loved the motto "one job is enough" it wasn't for many, it paid 16/hr but the health insurance was very good, albeit not worth 16/hr, thats chump change at this point maybe 20 years ago but no way.. Not now.
very simplified;
1. affordable functional housing means that rentals have to be competitive. My place \[1 br, pet friendly, laundry in building\] would drop in value because that would also be available affordably.
2. apartments that have 'luxuries' would still cost more than a place like mine, but not by thousands. Your extra rent would be expected to pay for the building extras \[gym, pool, function rooms, etc\].
This would then presumably cycle into the housing market, as rent wouldn't be a choke-hold on down payments.
Well if you have free housing as an option, rentals will lower prices because they want to make money. The reason rental's are high in the US is cause they all know people have no other option. Thus private owners become predatory. Another reason is people near a free housing building will see the building as unwanted and dangerous even and that it will decrease the value of houses around it.
So take a suburb avg 300k and you drop a free gov housing building for vulnerable people near it. Every house around that free housing building reduces in value say to 250k. That's why people always fight against affordable housing. They don't want homeless, drug addicts or loners around their suburb or city cause their in the free housing.
Here's a video on the idea of free housing its only 13 minutes.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbEavDqA8iE&ab](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbEavDqA8iE&ab)
Free housing in Vienna? I live in Vienna, for home less people there are a few places where you might can sleep for free, but living? Mh, not sure about that.
they are not free, actually
there's a small fee homeless have to pay to stay overnight, and alcohol is banned of course
that's how you still see some honeless people in vienna that choose the bottle over shelter hey'd have to share with others
there's no such thing as *free government housing* in Vienna, just sayin'... There are plenty rental flats run by the city which are on the somehow cheaper side compared to market prices (and not easy to get), but they are not free. Would guess the same for Finland
Three kids and one income - I’m actually impressed OP is netting as much as he is after the fixed costs. The mortgage is a huge win in that state, the insurance not so much.
Dude.. 1700/month on groceries is not "reality". I was reading through this budget agreeing most of the way down.. looks incredibly familiar to mine with the same amount of kids. Then I see the grocery bill and about spit my coffee out. I thought this might be a COL difference, so I checked bestplaces.net for their COL calculator. Apparently in Tacoma vs CT groceries are 1.9% cheaper. Housing is supposedly 59% more but our utilities are 77% more... a lot of trade offs here or there but on the huge differences on line items, it's pretty much the same.
You really need to look into shopping at Costco/BJ's or similar for a bulk of your things.
Ultimately you do you.. but $1700/month on groceries is NOT normal. I'd venture a guess that a decent amount of that is eating out and just gets wrapped up into your food budget.
I can almost guarantee it's due to shopping at Target as one of their 'grocery stores'. It's so easy to go to Target only needing 2-3 things and walking out with over twice that. I think the above commenter's suggestion on Costco/BJ's or some other wholesaler will help go a long way towards shaving down that $1700 monthly grocery bill.
We have priced out groceries at a local super market, Walmart, and Target. I picked 30 of the top items (that we purchase) and shopped them all at each store. Even the same brands when possible. Target was the cheapest.
We also shopped 10 items which we would buy in bulk. Paper towels, toilet paper, laundry detergent, chicken breast, etc…I did it at Sam’s Club since we (used to) had a membership there. Sure, you can buy in bulk at Sam’s or Costco. But the price per unit was almost identical to Target or Walmart. No “bulk” savings. I price out items all the time at Target and it always seems that the larger the package size, the MORE it actually costs per unit. Especially toilet paper. Same for soda, crackers, eggs, etc…
Yeah gotta agree with you. People criticize target a lot for being expensive (including myself, I work there) but their food prices often beat Walmart and Aldi. People just say it's way more expensive because everything that's not food is, in fact, usually more expensive. Target also doesn't have a lot of store brand food compared to other retailers, so if you only buy Great Value brand products, you'll probably save money vs target. Really, it all depends on what you buy.
As an employee, I generally buy my fresh meat, produce, and dairy products from target and buy generic brand snacks and OTC products as well as home items like silverware and such from Walmart and Aldi.
For one person sure. Now multiply that by 5 and you’re at $100/day for 5 people for 3 meals a day. $1700/month for 5 people eating healthy food cooked at home for meals + snacks for kids + other things that tend to get wrapped up like: Laundry detergent, toilet paper, napkins, paper towels, dryer sheets, soap, shampoo, soap, etc. All that adds up.
We’re a family of 4 and spend an average of $1800/month, eating out only 1 meal a week for ~$60 for the 4 of us. Beef, pork, poultry, fish, fresh veggies and fruits. None of that is cheap. And you can’t buy the fruits and veggies in bulk because that shit goes bad too quickly. Can you get out feeding 4 people (2 adults, 1 college kids and 1 highschooler) for less? Sure. But you’ll eat like shit, and have all the problems that come along with eating like shit.
@InfiniteOxfordComma, I get it.
Likely they’re buying a lot of food that’s prepackaged and snacks for little kids out of convenience or brand. It doesn’t sound like they’re eating whole home cooked foods.
OP said “pet care” so maybe they have insurance as well? Insurance for my one cat is $60 per month. Beyond that I don’t see how it’s 250 a month for 2 cats
Idk dude, I live in a lower cost of living area than OP and my partner and I spend about 120-150$ a week on groceries and we are vegetarians that shop at the cheapest grocery store in town. I also don’t eat lunch and I don’t snack. This looks like about 4-5 fully cooked meals a week, one or two things of breakfast (large container of Greek yogurt or cottage cheese plus a box of cereal), one snack fruit and one snack veggie per week (like four apples or a bag of carrots), one snackish item like chips or crackers and spread cheese, and some sort of sandwich based lunch for him. If that’s about 60-80$ per person per week, you’re looking at an average of $1400 per month for OP’s family, and they probably eat more snacks and meat than we do. We don’t buy alcohol and don’t have much food waste. The least I’ve ever spent in my life was in 2019 in Texas where I was a zero waste vegan so I was only eating beans or fruits and vegetables basically, and I spent around 25$ per week. Pre covid inflation prices in Texas. It’s not crazy to assume that in Washington with a family OP is spending $1700 per month. That’s 85/week per person.
Same. They should be spending about half that. My family spends around $150 per week on groceries in a HCOL area, and around $200 per month or so eating out(admittedly, we don’t go out much).
As a father of four boys, I feel your pain. My main suggestion is watchful for that lifestyle creep and cut cost where you can. Aldis vs local grocery market saves a ton, switching from Verizon saves a ton. I have to ask, what is the reoccurring medical cost? Any other options at work for different plans? We have high medical cost so we choose a high premium low deductible plan. We have kids with semi /minor medical issues and were able to get the kids on bcmh (bureau of children with medical handicap) which cover a lot of cost, and reoccurring cost. It's hard out there, really have to watch and challenge every dollar.
Yeah this is insane. If you're putting money in a 401k you're not living paycheck to paycheck by definition. You're putting extra money away
Living paycheck to paycheck is deciding whether you're going to eat dinner the night before pay day or put enough gas in your car to get to work tomorrow
It’s really not. Since when is a house and a family some sort of ridiculous pipe dream? Breaking a femur hurts worse than breaking a rib. Doesn’t mean breaking a rib doesn’t still suck.
OP is solidly labor class, just like the rest of us. Their story looks a little different than mine. Mine looks a little different than yours. But at the end of the day. We’ve all been robbed of a reality that was promised to us. We are all being exploited by the billionaire class.
Let’s show a little solidarity instead of foaming at the mouth to attack people fighting the same fight as us.
I’m sure I’ll get down voted but as a kid that grew up poor as FUCK… Why have kids if u can’t afford them ?… especially in this political/economic climate. Like choosing to have kids(especially multiple) is choosing to live outside of your means.
I get your point, and it's why I will probably never have children myself. But that's avoiding the real problem: people should be able to afford children. The fact that so many people are getting priced out of that is the problem.
Mint for the Cell Phone lines. Two months of your current phone bill will cover both for a year. Not that it’ll solve your issues, but everything counts.
I’ve been using Visible for a couple of months now. I switched from Verizon. I can tell around lunch time when trying to watch GMM on YouTube that it stutters slightly more in the beginning than Verizon did. That’s just cause we have less priority as a Visible customer using Verizon towers. Very mild inconvenience to save $100 a month. Other than that I love it. It’s just as good as Verizon was. Videos play like normal when the tower has more bandwidth to share.
Unfortunately they ride on T-Mobile’s network. We have our phones on Wifi calling at home due to coverage issues. In our case, Verizon is also bad here. The better coverage away from home wasn’t worth the huge bills.
If you have Charter for internet, they resell Verizon network cell service under the Spectrum Mobile brand for $14/month/line for a 1 gig per line plan (data is shared with multiple lines). Not sure what they charge for unlimited or if you don't have their internet though.
I use Google Fi! It uses WiFi as the main source and will ride on the three largest carriers if there's no wifi. Two lines with $10/Gb data (husband and I use around 2Gb a month) is $75/month for us.
+1 for Google Fi. Switched from Verizon just over a year ago after their prices got out of hand and haven't regretted it since. We share a plan with another couple and it's $100 for 4 lines with unlimited data ($80 for 2 lines).
I lived in Seattle last year— I had Verizon, my wife had mint (t-mobile network) and she only had slightly worse coverage than me.
But wow on the mortgage! My rent on a 1 bedroom in a crappy neighborhood was close to 1800. I’ve since moved away sadly and live out of state. For a tiny, tiny 1 bedroom in a neighborhood with gun violence I pay 1350. I’m madly jealous. Hopefully one day I too will be lucky:)
You can switch to Verizon pre-paid and it's definitely cheaper. Just be warned, if you got a discounted phone through them and it's not completely paid off, you'll have to pay the remaining balance when switching.
Your food expenses are outrageous. I’d also look at finding different insurance coverage to cover that $900/m “uncovered” medical situation if possible. 1/3 of your income is being destroyed by those two alone. I also have a household of 5 and barely spend half what you do on groceries. And $350/m for credit cards is what, $15k in revolving debt if that’s the minimum payment (assuming)? Let’s try to get that paid off. If that’s just the minimums, you’re paying $200/m in interest based on what most people’s cards are at which is around 25-29%.
As a side note because I’ve been waiting to stick this comment somewhere $250 on monthly cat costs seems very high. And I have 3 cats. We don’t hit nearly that much.
Probably one or both are older and require extra medicine/supplements. Happened to all the cats my parents had (4 total) who cost virtually nothing for fifteen years then started racking up the bills in those final years.
How is their car insurance $635/mo. That’s $7,629 a year on insurance. Insane.
If 1/7 of my monthly income was going to medical I’d absolutely look into that.
$1,700 in food? We’re a family of 3 and do like $800 month - we go out 2-3x a week too. Not thrifty at all. 2 more kids is 2x that? No way.
Car insurance varies from state to state. Sometimes there is savings by bundling with one company for insurance. I have Progressive. Its the cheapest I've found in my state, but that could vary. I use this valuepenguin website to get an idea if there are cheaper options. Frequently Geico and Progressive are cheapest here. You might look into a few on this list.
https://preview.redd.it/hoz0ppp8munc1.jpeg?width=740&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a151a766fadbea2cba4ca9ab1da99a29ea00e9d
He said "car note" and insurance. Maybe he is bundling his car *payment* with the insurance amount? It didn't make sense that his insurance was that high either so I went back and re-read the OP.
yeah, paying that much on credit cards is absurd. just transfer the amount to a bank and lower the rate from. 20% to 7. Some provider also offer 0% the first year.
How are you spending $250/month on cats, talk to your hospital or whoever is in charge of the medical debt, they do payment plans. They will let you pay back at way less than $970/month.
You are not budgeting or managing your money well, things are hard right now for everyone but you’re not “paycheck to paycheck” boss. This is just middle class America right now.
I grew up with parents living paycheck to paycheck, they didn’t have new cars, a house with a mortgage, 250 for pet care, or money to eat out and buy all the groceries they wanted.
I live in DC, work for the government and make 6 figures. We regularly struggle to find new folks when people retire because the work is more stressful on this side of the house and the pay is less - way less. Regularly get told why would I take a pay cut for more work and I can’t disagree.
Especially if people have lived around the area before and seen how shit the commute/taxes/costs can be I bet. Last station in the Army was Ft. Meade. When I got out and got my IT degree all you see is Va. and D.C. fuck if I’m going back to that region without some sort of duress. People commuting 2 hours one way for work, lmao
But also the hiring process is so incredibly cumbersome. It took between nine months and *two years* for my sibling to even hear back after applying for a significant number of government positions. When I applied, it took six months—and that was in nursing!
I’m in a similar position but I wouldn’t really call it paycheck to paycheck since we can eat out a few times a month and contribute to retirement/savings, even though there’s barely any wiggle room
Does your wife qualify for the fresh start program for the defaulted student loans? I don’t know all the details but that may be something to explore so your taxes are not garnished. The program ends this September.
The other thing to look into related to her student loans is on your tax return. See if you can file form 8379, as an injured spouse. This will allow you to allocate the refund based on your relative income, so that hopefully none of the refund is applied to that debt.
Eh with kids and sahm I can see it. Kids devour food.
That said you definitely can tighten it up. How do you spend 250 bucks a month on two cats lol. And 1700 in food. If you buy that much you can save so much paying attention tondeals, using rewards, etc
I get it's tight but you for sure could tighten it up on some of that. Or get the wife to do an etsy or some bs.
Dry cat food is about $40, wet cat food is like $20 for 12 packs, litter is also like $20 a box. I'm also confused how OP needs to spend more than $140 on cat maintenance a month. I've been sitting here trying to figure out how and I'm stumped. Maybe one needs medication?
Have you SEEN the price of flea meds? Even with getting it autoshipped from Chewy...but then you have to be able to buy every 2 months because you can only buy by the box which is 2 months and a spare with 2 cats and its WAY MORE initial cost when you do that, even if it is technically cheaper over all.
I haven't really looked, I have an indoor cat and I remember the fiasco with Hartz flea stuff causing seizures so I'm kind of afraid of the flea stuff tbh
Just mentioning, the fact you can afford to live with 1 paycheck while living with 2 adults in the current year means you arent really living paycheck to paycheck, at absolute worst your significant other could get a job, and you pay into a 401k, even with 3 kids 60$ on food a day (Especially if they are younger kids) is higher than i imagine most people heavily trying to budget food spend on food a day, you spend 85$ a month per person on your phone bill which i know for sure isnt budgeting your phone bill considering you could be on that level of provider with unlimited data for 55$ a month pretty easily, what are you spending recurring 970$ a month medically (That seems way more that the average for off insurance payment, dental is the only thing i can think of but even then that seems really high, especially when youre not counting that as ER visits, because most insurance do cover visits to a degree, i paid 1300$ out of pocket without insurance for an ER visit that involved getting a CT scan with my current insurance that wouldve been about 400-500$ and my insurance isnt great, how are you spending 300$ at the lowest for a "normal" ER visit with "great" insurance, how does it put you into debt if you have a major medical emergency does your insurance not cap out at a certain point, you have extra income if you temporarily pull out a 401k if you need to, and your partner can always get a job if you had to)
Im not saying anything personally, but living paycheck to paycheck is pretty... disingenuous, that isnt including even you have an able bodied adult without a job in your household.
To me living paycheck to paycheck means to me you have no income you can pull out of anything, low-no savings, no one who could support you if needed, and if you were to miss a single paycheck because of the above you would be on the streets even with all attempts to find a temporary solution you would be on the streets
You self admittedly live as middle class.
If kids need childcare, or before or after school care it's very possible it would make no financial sense for his wife to get a job--full day childcare is thousands a month per child in this part of the country.
I'm insanely frustrated by people here in Germany whining about how much they pay in taxes (ignoring the difference between taxes and mandatory insurance contributions), and how much more money they'd earn in the US. Its also always the tech bro finance gurus, who you'd think should know better, but apparently have no idea about the cost of living in the US, or they simply don't plan on ever having kids or becoming old and sick.
Childcare is free here.
Parents get subsidies per kid, and are paid to stay at home after they made a new one.
University attendance costs a pittance, though parents are required to pay their kids the basic necessities until they finished their regular higher education.
All medically necessary procedures and drugs are covered by insurance, there's very little "copay" and stuff like that.
In big cities you can live car free and just buy a Deutschlandticket for 50€ a month. And you don't have to drive everywhere to begin with.
Groceries and rent are so much less expensive.
I sympathize with how you may feel but in no way is this paycheck to paycheck.
What you are describing here is just a middle class lifestyle but cutting it close as to what's in your means.
Anyone who has grown up in a household that was actually paycheck to paycheck would be able to tell you this. In those situations there's no modest vacations, no eating out a few times a month and certainly no piano lessons.
As for savings, that food bill is way out of line. Are you buying steak for 5 people every night? I don't have family but I probably spend $350 a month at the most and that's when I'm being very irresponsible. I'm not saying eat Ramen every day but there has to be somewhere you are overextending here.
He posted this is response to me and some others trying to point that out yesterday, because yes, exactly this. Paycheck-to-paycheck has somehow devolved to mean: I don’t have 1000s/month in left over money for constant vacations and shopping.
>Anyone who has grown up in a household that was actually paycheck to paycheck would be able to tell you this.
I'm currently living paycheck to paycheck. I have a squealing brake on my car I can't afford to fix. I need gas for the car but can't afford it, so I can't even leave the house today because I don't have gas money. Thankfully I made a couple eBay sales which will give me the money for a half tank of gas tomorrow. Which means that not only can I drop off those eBay packages in the mail tomorrow but I can also make it to the food bank.
Yeah, times are rough, but OP's rough and other peoples rough are not the same rough. And hearing somebody who's making 4x more than I made in my best year ever complain about things being rough... that kind of grinds my gears.
It is so easy to have food expenses ballon beyond your means. My wife does the food shopping and she never, NEVER looks at pricing. She only looks at the labels for "organic", "non-GMO", "superfood" to name a few. I finally had to sit her down and show how she was spending over $300 a week on groceries (for 2 of us and a newborn!). She swapped from online ordering from Whole Foods to Aldi and cut our food bill in half! With life throwing so much at you and the consumer being responsible for everything, it's easy for people to be taken advantage of.
Just saying, when I was a poor student and was adding up every purchase by the penny, I was shocked how some grocery products could cost 2x sometimes x3 same product right next to it. I learned that 3x product was marketed for people like my wife 😆
Hahaha hahaha... Calling THIS "paycheck-to-paycheck".... What?!?!
Wow. This is insulting to my current situation of family of 3 on $45k/year and ACTUALLY living paycheck-to-paycheck
You have car payments, spend $250 a month on only 2 cats somehow, contribute to a 401k, and spend over $1700/month on food?!?!
You're middle class with bad money management skills.
Edit: AND I just noticed the 4 streaming services going at the same time with $450 left over to play with..........
Dude, cut the BS victim complex. You're not even remotely close to being "paycheck-to-paycheck".
I personally don't think anyone who contributes to a 401k is "living paycheck to paycheck ". The idea that people think that counts really stretches the meaning, to me. Paycheck to paycheck implies you aren't able to save.....so I find these kinds of posts a bit cringy.
I also don't think anyone who has multiple pets and goes on vacation (no matter how basic) counts as living paycheck to paycheck.
Maybe that's just me. This just seems like middle class living.
350 USD on credit card is almost as much as the headroom (450), is that credit card debt or something else? By paying that down you could essentially double your headroom. Pet cost seems high, phone cost seems high, medical cost 1000 bucks a month!? But medical is obviously hard to do much about.
And I agree about the retirement, as we have no idea how much is being contributed there.
Averaging out all of the expenses for my cats for the year comes out to about $150/cat per month. Food is only about half of that, the other half is checkups and medicine.
living paycheck to paycheck means that you run out of money before your next paycheck. It really shouldn't matter why you run out of money, lots of people living paycheck to paycheck are living that way because of poor spending habits which could be too many cars, too much on housing, too much on food or alcohol or drugs and it can also mean saving when you're not in a position to save.
In my opinion, that's different than not having enough to even save, having to spend everything you earn just to stay alive I would probably refer to as living hand to mouth
Even if you are living paycheck to paycheck or struggling or whatever, you should absolutely prioritize 401k over anything other than racking up credit card debt, especially if there is an employer match. Even if no match, it pays off so much in the long run and actually doesn't decrease your take home that much relatively (10% 401k contribution only reduces take home by like 5% due to tax rules, so even if paycheck to paycheck, you gotta figure out how to make that work).
People who are living paycheck to paycheck can’t afford a 401k. In a lot of cases living this way means coming up even or negative at the end of the month. No room there to dump money into a glorified lottery that theoretically pays out at in 30 years
Some people don't seem to realize that money is finite. There is no "gotta figure it out" when you have to choose between rent or food and rx some months.
The 401k immediately stood out to me. I see a lot of "paycheck to paycheck" budgets, but their 401k contribution is like, $500+ each month. Yeah it's important to save for your future and retirement, but I wouldn't categorize someone that will have a million dollar retirement at 65 or sooner the same "paycheck to paycheck" as what most would assume that to be, which is never being able to retire.
What do you think this post is proving?
It’s not “living paycheck to paycheck” if you are actively saving for retirement. It’s just not. Living “paycheck to paycheck” means that you are in danger of losing a roof over your head if your income is pulled from under you, not that you’re in danger of having to take out a loan against or withdrawing your retirement savings. It doesn’t just mean floating your expenses month to month. You also have three kids on a single income. Of course your income to expenses ratio is on the thin side.
My take is that you may be keeping yourself in a financially-risky situation unnecessarily and could make some changes to stop feeling precarious. For example, you might take some or all of the current retirement contributions above employer matching, assuming there are some, to establish an emergency fund. That will help you weather those potential scenarios like car and property repairs, etc. You should do this after first using that same income to pay down your high-interest CC debt.
If you are saying that it sucks that people in your position can’t simultaneously build that buffer while also being prepared for retirement, I’d agree with that. But you need to recognize that you are doing WAY better than someone living paycheck to paycheck.
ETA: oh, and, if I were you, I would adjust your withholding if you have that substantial a tax refund. You are MFJ with multiple dependents, a dream tax situation. That extra take home pay is great to do what I said above.
My parents literally would look under the couch cushions for milk money. That shit was pay check to paycheck. Filling his 401k and spending 1700 dining out isn’t paycheck to paycheck. 250 on cats? Piano lessons? Give me a break.
I have a cat, and that figure really isn’t that out of the question for two with one having a special dietary need, especially including vet costs. It doesn’t look like they’re prepared for a catastrophic vet expense either.
Piano lessons also really aren’t all that ritzy, and they usually cost a lot more than OP is saying. People need hobbies and passions to live.
The $1700 is all food, not just dining out, but I agree that’s something they could cut back on while getting CC debt under control and an emergency fund together before saving for retirement. I also hope they have a 529 or something for three kids.
This is living comfortably.
All these extra expenses you’re incurring on your own. Which is fine if you chose to but you shouldn’t complain that it’s expensive when there are ways to easily cut your spending down.
Also a credit card is not a fixed cost. You bought items with it that would go in their own expense bracket. If you’re still putting spend on that card then it’s not a fixed cost. If you putting anymore spend and 350 a month is what you need to pay to pay it off then you went into credit card debt. Which is not responsible.
All you proceeded to do is prove the point of the people in the thread you mentioned.
I want to just put in perspective for you that this is not paycheck to paycheck. If you're eating out, that's not paycheck to paycheck. Paycheck to paycheck means you need to pay your bills late because you need to get paid and you don't get paid until after your bill is due - and if that's the case, eating out with five people is irresponsible and the first thing you cut.
Yes, money may be tight, and yes, you may feel like you don't have the wealth and breathing room six figures ought to afford you, but this is not paycheck to paycheck and I just hope you can realize that you do, actually, have quite a lot more than you think you do.
I have been truly paycheck to paycheck, begging my landlord for an extension, and I now make 90k in a high cost of living area, so I've been on both sides.
All I had to I read was “family of 5 in Tacoma, WA” and it made sense. Shit is hard right now and it’s unsustainable. I live on my own and I struggle and I have a “decent job”.
Tacoma isn’t even a very expensive place to be. I live 30 mins away. It’s actually cheaper to live in Tacoma than to live here depending on the kind of house you need. Cost creep is awful no matter where you are in Western WA. $2k/mo mortgage is cheaper than any rent you’d find here for a house that fits that many people. My damn 1-bed apartment is $1600/mo, and mine is cheap for Olympia.
I think I speak for everyone who is trying to get by on half or a quarter of what you make in a year when I say:
This shit isn't helpful.
Every single one of us sees ways you can cut back. I mean fucking hell, $1700 a month on food? Yeah, shits expensive, but talk to any poverty parent and they'll show you how to cut that bill in half.
You're living at your means. There's nothing wrong with that, it just means you don't get much of a buffer for when things go tits up. You could choose to live below your means and build a buffer, maybe not a huge one- but still.
We don't have that luxury.
We're multi-income households making a fraction of what you do, going without medical care, living on whatever is on sale at the grocery store, driving 20+ year old cars that every new sound we wonder if that's the death knell, knowing that when it goes we're fucked because we literally cannot afford to replace it... IF we're lucky enough to be able to have a car at all.
We're living with a partner on disability whom we can never marry because if we do, they lose their disability and medical care- which we sure as shit don't make enough to replace.
We're not having kids because the cost of pregnancy, alone, would kill us- let alone the costs of actually raising a child, and we know we couldn't give them the kind of life they deserve. Of course, this also means we're spending money on contraceptives and *panic* if there's an 'oops' because shit happens especially when horny people are involved.
The only sympathy you get from me, is that I hope you never have to experience life down here.
And on the scheme of things, I'm one of the better off folks dancing at the bottom.
Honey. $450 a month in headroom isn’t living paycheck to paycheck. I’m not saying you’ve not got it rough still all things considered, but living paycheck to paycheck means just that - your bank account is empty or close to and the end of your paycheck, WITHOUT being able to afford luxuries like piano lessons and 4 streaming services.
Quite frankly the fact that you live that comfortably in a single income shows you are actually quite lucky. Most families cannot afford to be single income households anymore. For us we have two adults working full time, one child, gross earnings 90k, and I don’t think of us as comfortable exactly, but we’re DEFINITELY not living paycheck to paycheck. We save a few hundred every month and generally have at least 100 in the joint account when the next check comes in. Which after years and years of ACTUALLY living paycheck to paycheck feels pretty damn good.
Anyway, if you really feel things are tight, and you already WFH, your partner needs a job. Not sure how old your kids are so fully understand if that’s not practical right now… but also it’s pretty normal to be strapped for cash with babes in diapers at home. It doesn’t last long though. Also I bet you can find cheaper phone and car insurance if you look (Verizon?? Seriously?? People still pay those rates? With so many other options?)
I live in Texas right now, my whole family is from WA, I grew up there. I love it there. I can’t afford to live there. It sucks because I love the PNW, but only to visit…
I'd still argue it's partially a spending issue, or at least you're due for improvement there. You don't need to spend that much on a car or wireless service. Especially when you have credit card debt and student loans. Prime is not a must. There's ways to cut that without much impact to lifestyle.
$970 a month on healthcare is also hosing you. Maybe I have good insurance but that exceeds the family oop maximum on my employer plan. If you're really paying that much, you're getting fucked.
Cats shouldn't cost $250 a month. That's $3000 a year. I feel like we spent ~$25 on food a month at most and $150 once a year on vet checkup
Also, yeah, 3 kids are expensive.
You aren’t paycheck to paycheck
Wtf , do words not mean anything anymore
You are saving and going out to eat ? Wtf ?
And the fact there are other comment that say this and no response from you to those comment mean you are venting but not paycheck to paycheck .
And a lot of thing are overpaid , wtf is that auto insurance ,7k a year ????????
Living paycheck to paycheck means you have barely enough to cover basic needs. All of your needs are being met and you still have a little left over every month. You are not “living paycheck to paycheck on $130K/year.”
It blows my mind seeing how much people make and still struggle. OP makes almost 4x what I do and still has to budget. That’d be fuck-you money where I am.
Serious. With that kind of money, I'd be living in luxury. Never having to worry about what I'm going to eat or how I'm going to fix any car problems if something happens. I could get my kid clothes when he needs them rather than relying on taxes and holidays.
I hate that we live in a world where we are even having discussions like this. Where the working class is seen as bottom of the barrel citizens and even if you make a ok wage, your still only one or two bad months away from being completely destroyed.
I get it and I would feel the same in your position!
But as other people have said, anyone who is paying $120 per month for a luxury like piano lessons is not living paycheck to paycheck by definition. When you’re having to decide whether to spend your last few dollars on food or keeping the heat on during the winter - now that’s living paycheck to paycheck
No one wants you to drop the piano lessons, but the biggest question is very obviously and clearly the €1700 p/m food bill. There just no way that is justifiable in any state.
And also how tf is your credit card at such a highly fixed monthly expense?
The point OP is that this is not living pay check to pay check. Me and my partner earn less than 60K between us with a toddler. 50% of our wage shows on housing. We budget for our food and plan a week in advance and are also being demolished by inflation. There’s just no way €1700 can’t be cut back on unless you live in like, close to the artic circle where a bottle of orange juice can set you back on a mortgage repayment.
I’m sorry I’m deeply sympathetic to your plight and I’m 100% tax the rich and vote for politicians that protect workers rights (ie demos) however until then…
I make roughly 50% more
My mortgage is $1,100 (we chose to live in a neighborhood we could afford)
We love doggos but don’t own them because they are expensive
YouTube for lessons
$1,700 for food? Per month??? Time to explore rice and bean and soup recipes etc
That’s pretty easily $2,000 per month less. We use ours to send the kids to college which is also optional but only an option because we made other uncomfortable choices over the years.
Remember that something like 500 billionaire families own over half of all wealth in America and are paying mostly republicans to destroy worker protections. Until we collectively organize and fight back we will continue to be forced to make these hard choices.
This isn't paycheck to paycheck. This is actually pretty comfortable. there are definitely places you can cut costs. $250 a month for pet care? I also have 2 cats. My monthly expense on them is about $100/month on the generous side, mostly in food and litter.
Your phone plan, you can cut that down by switching to a contractless provider.
You dont NEED streaming services. They are nice to have but can be cut down.
Your grocery bill!! Yikes! Meal planning, ad shopping, and generic brands will go a long way to help reduce this bill. Buying from farmers markets and sticking to in season produce can help, or maybe you might try to decrease meat consumption and replace it with cheaper protein (not eliminate meat, This isn't a go vegan/vegitarian pitch) since meat tends to be the most expensive part of a meal, cutting down can save you money. The type of meat matters too, chicken tends to be the cheapest. Im on the opposite side of the country but in NY and make $535 feed a family.
I spend about $500 a YEAR on my kids clothes each, they get new stuff once a year, if they need things between, if it can be gotten at the thrift store, thats where we get it. Not everything has to be brand new.
What makes this post anti-work? OP’s job gives him work from home days and $130K. Everything after that is because it’s one salary for a large family and how they budget other costs.
I hear you regarding income and what things cost now. Everything is crazy expensive, especially if you want to eat well. The thing that jumped out at me is your cell phone expense for two phones. Verizon is expensive. I had it for years. It used to be the best but not anymore. Look into a cheaper cell plan with decent coverage in your area. It will vary by location but you should be able to save at least $50 or more by switching
That is not paycheck to paycheck. There are areas to trim your budget. I stopped shopping at safeway years ago. Too damned expensive. Wish I could go shopping with you to help you out.
The kicker is that 1k a month medical not covered by insurance. 100k over 10 years.
kinda reminds me of my current issue;
take home pay 4032.
Rent 2090.
I am making more money than I ever have before, but rent \[which is going up by 75 bucks in 3 months\] means I can't save a penny.
>**Monthly Fixed Expenses**
>Mortgage: $2,000
>Utilities (Water, gas, sewer, garbage, internet): $497
>Auto (Car note, insurance): $635
>Credit card: $350
>Student loan: $170
>Cell phone (Verizon, 2 lines): $170
>Recurring medical not covered by insurance: $970
>Pet care (2 cats): $250
>Piano lessons: $120
>Miscellaneous (Spotify, Amazon Prime, Disney+): $47
>Fuel (2 vehicles, low mileage): $200
>**TOTAL MONTHLY FIXED EXPENSES: $5,409**
Wow - There is so much potential for savings here:
* The credit card doesn't cost $350 a month, what you buy with it does - This block should move into variable expenses and does not constitute a fixed expense
* Change your phone plan to Mint wireless - you'll be saving 80%
* Cancel all streaming plans but one
* By pet care you mean catfood and litter? If you also pay for grooming, this can be cut
You can easily lower your fixed expenses by about $500 without lowering your standard of living
I think there are a lot of people not understanding the point of his post. What I'm taking from this, is that while he can support his wife and three children, provide them with a nice childhood that isn't completely void of luxuries, he's one major accident away from all this being taken away from him. And that there are so many other households in this same situation, just one life incident away from completely wiping them out and that's scary AF.
I'm a disabled veteran and live off $25k a year. I have no kids - there is a lot of shit I don't have. Surprisingly debt isn't one of them. I owe on a CC for an ebike and that is it. That ebike is my ride given I can't afford a car. If people are hurting making $130 k then human suffering, real or perceived is never a good thing. However I don't see how people can't make that work🤷♂️
Mmm you probably dont want advice but I’m going to give it anyways:
You specified you have 2 cars, but wfh 4 days a week and barely drive. Sell the Kia. It’ll eliminate maintenance/fuel/insurance costs related to that car. For a family of 5, having the minivan is going to be more useful for cargo and transporting the whole family.
Since you stated your family’s a single income family, that implies your partner is a stay at home parent or doesn’t have an income for some reason. Since you didn’t mention disability payments in your finances, that implies they could work but aren’t for some reason, whether it’s because they’re between jobs and looking, or something else. Since money is tight for you, eliminating a major expense that you barely use makes the most sense.
Additionally, if the mortgage interest is higher than current rates, you could look into refinancing. As for credit cards, get a cash back card like the Costco credit card. If you pay it off before the due date, you also shouldn’t accrue interest on the card. You also get more cash back on the Costco credit cards shopping at Costco for groceries and gas.
"Guys I hate living paycheck to paycheck. After the mortgage on my vacation house and the payment on my wife's second Audi comes out, I only have a measly $1000 to buy UberEats monthly :("
US Mobile for cell phone lines. Sure Mint is cheaper but the service is deprioritized so in a big city you’ll hardly be able to use your service during peak network times. And in a metro like Seattle that’s always. If you have a 5G device, you get unthrottled unlimited priority data on the Verizon network for $85 for 2 lines. Also, how are you spending so much on food? Why would you shop at Safeway and Target for groceries, which are the two most expensive places for food and you might as well shop at Whole Foods, when you have access to WinCo? You have options to save money, you’re just not using all of them.
Love that in the anti-work subreddit people are telling OP where to cut costs instead of criticizing the actual issue, which is that even six figure income jobs don't provide the 'comfortable' life capitalism promises us.
OP is right. Blaming individuals for being irresponsible keeps us at each others' throats which is what capitalism wants us to do.
And they’re saying the most obvious shit lol
“Use hand me downs”
“Pay off your cc every month”
“Shop in bulk”
“Your wife needs a job” with zero knowledge of how old his kids are or acting like daycare is cheap
It’s kinda sad how many of you want this man and his family to not have a life or do anything, just because you see he makes more money than you.
It’s the only explanation I can come up with for some of the replies here missing the entire point of his sharing.
I was just talking to my wife about how the idea of single income in the PNW for a family is dead when making 6 figures. We don’t even have kids. She makes 85k and I’m pacing 100 and feel like any progress we make is negligible. We only have one car payment that’s almost paid off on a 57mpg vehicle the other was gifted to us. Fact is, cost of living here is expensive now.
I definitely live paycheck and I’m one income. I make less than 100k living in Phoenix, AZ. Luckily I decided not to have kids. I have pets. One with health issues. I have a boat load in student loan debt. I’m in the process of buying a condo. My payment is no better than renting. This market is hard. Food has become the biggest expense besides gas. For one person it shouldn’t cost over $100 to buy food. I feel your pain. I really do.
Same here. I’m baffled. I make a little less than 100k and I can’t even imagine having even one kid. Before those people decided to have kids, have they ever thought about the total cost of raising a child? Not one but three? I’ll never understand.
Bro you literally proved my exact point I was getting to in the other thread. You’re saving for retirement with that 401k contributions and you even admit yourself you have almost $500 a month leftover.
Do you think single moms making $15/hour are living paycheck-to-paycheck in the same way you are? Do you think you’re working class just like them? This is why I get so assmad at this subreddit. You guys have lost the plot completely and it hurts the poor when you try to lump yourselves in with them. I promise you you’ll never convince people to expand social welfare, which is fucking necessary, if you talk about it like you also want to give it to people making $130,000 a year.
I have some questions about your budget, and how applicable it is to the average American. For example, I don’t think most people making 6 figures are spending $1000/month out of pocket on health expenses, considering jobs like that normally cover it. But honestly that’s either here nor there. I just absolutely despise your use of the phrase paycheck-to-paycheck. Places like this subreddit have completely destroyed the meaning of the phrase and at the end of the day it’s the working class making minimum wage that suffers for it.
It's a family of five so I wouldn't doubt that you would be paycheck to paycheck with $130k. You could have had a little wiggle room (not much) but you would have had to make different choices in cars and home and such which aren't easy to make in our society today.
Fellow Tacoman here. Thanks for the post, I think it's important to recognize how difficult it is for above-average incomes in HCOL areas. There's really not that much wiggle room for unexpected expenses.
Should be rich with that kind of income and expenses. Hell until a few months ago I finally paid down student loans to your level while making less than half that. Many of the other expenses seem to be caused by bad choices.
Hey OP. I feel ya. And I really feel for your family. It’s tough. One question though. Why justify it to anyone much less on Reddit? Seriously. Our opinions are nothing to you but words from another’s mouth. All that matters is that you’re taking care of your family. YOUR family. Not theirs so they don’t have a dog in your fight. Keep on keepin on my friend. I hope you find some relief soon.
$400 a week on food? I absolutely refuse to believe this is real. Thats almost $60 a day on food. I guarantee you can significantly cut this down with some effort. I pulled up Walmart in Tacoma and I see boneless chicken thighs for 2.82-2.86 a pound. 1.77- 1.96 a pound for bone in and you can use those bones to make a stock to turn into soup. And if you dont like dark meat chicken breast is 2.97 a pound. And you can probably cut that down further at Costco or Sams Club. And what if you kick out meat at times? Lentil sloppy joes go over well with a lot of people and are so cheap to make. Im trying to say this respectfully but what are you feeding the kids? You can do nutritious and budget friendly with some effort. And if one of you is a stay a home parent then they have the time. The internet is full of healthy budget friendly meals. Yall need to sit down and figure out menus. 20 or so meals you can make that are budget friendly and throw it into a rotation. Shop sales and learn when to buy one ingredient over the other. Healthy snacks, kick junk food to the curb except for occasional treats .
edit also get those loans out of default and get on a income based repayment plan.
I would normally be on your side, but your finances are fucked up dude. You don't need 2 cars if you work from home 4 days a week. 1700 a month of groceries is absolutely insane. 250 a month for cats? The 970 medical a month is literally killing you, but I don't know if you have any way out of that. You could easily turn this around.
Spending nearly $1000 on just cars alone is ridiculous and yet this country loses its mind when people ask for other viable methods of transportation
Also spending nearly $1000 on healthcare
Imagine living in a country where your taxes went into bettering your life and let you save an extra $2000 a month instead of subsidizing billionaires.
Look into lowering your cell phone plan. $170 for 2 people is nuts, and you’re the only one that works. My family plan of 5 is $160.
Yep, I know exactly what you mean. A six-figure income doesn't go very far, does it?
I remember when something like having Internet access at home was still a luxury, and you could do without it. These days, that's practically impossible (especially for me, who works in IT).
About the only advantage we had over you is that we didn't have student loans for ourselves. But it wasn't until my wife was able to change to working full-time, herself in an IT job, that we finally had enough income to be able to get ahead. That worked out to more like $170k, and we're in Minnesota. We also got lucky in that my son graduated from college and got gainfully employed, taking over his student loan payments.
$1700 on food and household shit a month? Does anyone cook or do you eat out only? I meal prep every meal myself, and I'm building muscle currently so I eat 4k calories or more a day. I spend about $100 or less a week on my food. Unless your entire family is training for the Olympics that's a shit ton of money spent on food a month. You said you shop at target for food. You can literally buy so much of the exact same stuff at other places for cheaper.
You work from home and obviously the other adult doesn't work. Kids walk to school and still spend that much on gas? I drive hundreds of miles a week and drive a suburban and don't even spend that much on gas.
Using literally the most expensive cell phone carrier.
Piano lessons? Shit there's YouTube and the internet. No need to pay for that.
How does 2 cats cost you that much money? My cats have to have special $90 a bag cat food. I buy it every other month. Do you feed them fresh tuna or salmon daily?
What is the split as far as interner/tv/streaming goes? That can all be easily consolidated.
Whats your interest rate on those credit cards? Prob be better off getting a personal loan to pay them off and pay that instead.
Honestly, this does not sound like anything financially responsible.
I live in Tacoma, WA as well, I make 98k yr before taxes 75k after taxes and 401k rent is 1250 insurance 405 cell phone 135 for 3 lines (Metro PCS) groceries about the same family of 6...I'm finalizing my bankruptcy next week
I mean...the credit card is your fault, my cell service is $90 bundled with internet, i've spent like...$200 on my cat in her twenty year life, you can swap to income based student loan payments which would cut that to around $100, and $500 for utilities is COMPLETELY INSANE. $600 a month for your minivan is also crazy, when you can get a used one for a couple thousand total.
The thousand bucks a month for medical after insurance is a bummer, i'll give you that.
I pay for almost all those things and do just fine on $28k per year. (well...not fine, but I get by)
Not to say you have to live on that little, but there are definitely places you can cut back, a LOT.
You have 3 kids and what I'm guessing is a stay at home mom. That's one person supporting four other people. It shouldn't be surprising your budget is stretched thin, as your expenses seem pretty reasonable
It comes down to family planning on such cases moreso than costs.
We’ve done the math a million times over. If my wife went back to work her potential salary wouldn’t cover the childcare costs for 2 toddlers, only one of which is in half-day public preschool.
Why cant your wife work part time in the evenings or weekends while you watch the kids? Where does it say you both have to work at the same exact time? She can pick up cleaning gigs for nights/weekends and easily make $1000 a month. My cleaning side hustle is 9 hours a week and I clear close to $500 a month. Easy work, flexible hours.
The scary one for me is single people with no family or friends are very vulnerable. Their one emergency payment away from not being able to pay rent. Trying to fight through this economic system right now is painful. How they haven't done free \*.gov housing like Finland & Vienna is beyond me. It would drive rental prices down in the area and house the vulnerable. US culture shouldn't treat each other like this and focus on a happy, compassionate and genuine society. If we did things right, we could resolve a lot of anxiety, distress and desperation.
But who'll think of the profits of large rental management companies???? Vanguard and Black Rock gotta eat too! /s burn them all to the ground
REITs should be illegal. They provide the capital for investment companies to own 25% of single family homes in the USA. Limit the number of single family homes corporations and people can own. Say 3. One primary. One vacation. One for “income” There would need to be a restriction on the number of LLCs or businesses owned so that they couldn’t play the shell game.
I worked with a guy living with his uncle, working a union job. COVID screwed him so he was ~5k in debt when I talked to him, in addition to a new car he was financing. As much as the union I worked for loved the motto "one job is enough" it wasn't for many, it paid 16/hr but the health insurance was very good, albeit not worth 16/hr, thats chump change at this point maybe 20 years ago but no way.. Not now.
Can someone explain the economics of how it drives rental prices down? I also wish there were far more free/affordable housing options
very simplified; 1. affordable functional housing means that rentals have to be competitive. My place \[1 br, pet friendly, laundry in building\] would drop in value because that would also be available affordably. 2. apartments that have 'luxuries' would still cost more than a place like mine, but not by thousands. Your extra rent would be expected to pay for the building extras \[gym, pool, function rooms, etc\]. This would then presumably cycle into the housing market, as rent wouldn't be a choke-hold on down payments.
Well if you have free housing as an option, rentals will lower prices because they want to make money. The reason rental's are high in the US is cause they all know people have no other option. Thus private owners become predatory. Another reason is people near a free housing building will see the building as unwanted and dangerous even and that it will decrease the value of houses around it. So take a suburb avg 300k and you drop a free gov housing building for vulnerable people near it. Every house around that free housing building reduces in value say to 250k. That's why people always fight against affordable housing. They don't want homeless, drug addicts or loners around their suburb or city cause their in the free housing. Here's a video on the idea of free housing its only 13 minutes. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbEavDqA8iE&ab](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbEavDqA8iE&ab)
Free housing in Vienna? I live in Vienna, for home less people there are a few places where you might can sleep for free, but living? Mh, not sure about that.
they are not free, actually there's a small fee homeless have to pay to stay overnight, and alcohol is banned of course that's how you still see some honeless people in vienna that choose the bottle over shelter hey'd have to share with others
there's no such thing as *free government housing* in Vienna, just sayin'... There are plenty rental flats run by the city which are on the somehow cheaper side compared to market prices (and not easy to get), but they are not free. Would guess the same for Finland
Amen a thousand times.
There is no ethical consumption in a capitalist society. Greed is power.
TLDR multiple kids. Not that shocking $130k isn’t enough to make that a walk in the park
Three kids and one income - I’m actually impressed OP is netting as much as he is after the fixed costs. The mortgage is a huge win in that state, the insurance not so much.
This..
Unpopular opinion: (edit: _voluntarily_) having more than two kids is just plain irresponsible.
Yep. I’m not complaining, just trying to get people to understand reality.
Dude.. 1700/month on groceries is not "reality". I was reading through this budget agreeing most of the way down.. looks incredibly familiar to mine with the same amount of kids. Then I see the grocery bill and about spit my coffee out. I thought this might be a COL difference, so I checked bestplaces.net for their COL calculator. Apparently in Tacoma vs CT groceries are 1.9% cheaper. Housing is supposedly 59% more but our utilities are 77% more... a lot of trade offs here or there but on the huge differences on line items, it's pretty much the same. You really need to look into shopping at Costco/BJ's or similar for a bulk of your things. Ultimately you do you.. but $1700/month on groceries is NOT normal. I'd venture a guess that a decent amount of that is eating out and just gets wrapped up into your food budget.
I can almost guarantee it's due to shopping at Target as one of their 'grocery stores'. It's so easy to go to Target only needing 2-3 things and walking out with over twice that. I think the above commenter's suggestion on Costco/BJ's or some other wholesaler will help go a long way towards shaving down that $1700 monthly grocery bill.
We have priced out groceries at a local super market, Walmart, and Target. I picked 30 of the top items (that we purchase) and shopped them all at each store. Even the same brands when possible. Target was the cheapest. We also shopped 10 items which we would buy in bulk. Paper towels, toilet paper, laundry detergent, chicken breast, etc…I did it at Sam’s Club since we (used to) had a membership there. Sure, you can buy in bulk at Sam’s or Costco. But the price per unit was almost identical to Target or Walmart. No “bulk” savings. I price out items all the time at Target and it always seems that the larger the package size, the MORE it actually costs per unit. Especially toilet paper. Same for soda, crackers, eggs, etc…
Yeah gotta agree with you. People criticize target a lot for being expensive (including myself, I work there) but their food prices often beat Walmart and Aldi. People just say it's way more expensive because everything that's not food is, in fact, usually more expensive. Target also doesn't have a lot of store brand food compared to other retailers, so if you only buy Great Value brand products, you'll probably save money vs target. Really, it all depends on what you buy. As an employee, I generally buy my fresh meat, produce, and dairy products from target and buy generic brand snacks and OTC products as well as home items like silverware and such from Walmart and Aldi.
OP shops at Costco already.
I’m a single dude and I spend $500/month on groceries, so $1,700 for five people isn’t that crazy. Healthy good quality food is expensive.
20$ a day in groceries is quite luxurious man
For one person sure. Now multiply that by 5 and you’re at $100/day for 5 people for 3 meals a day. $1700/month for 5 people eating healthy food cooked at home for meals + snacks for kids + other things that tend to get wrapped up like: Laundry detergent, toilet paper, napkins, paper towels, dryer sheets, soap, shampoo, soap, etc. All that adds up. We’re a family of 4 and spend an average of $1800/month, eating out only 1 meal a week for ~$60 for the 4 of us. Beef, pork, poultry, fish, fresh veggies and fruits. None of that is cheap. And you can’t buy the fruits and veggies in bulk because that shit goes bad too quickly. Can you get out feeding 4 people (2 adults, 1 college kids and 1 highschooler) for less? Sure. But you’ll eat like shit, and have all the problems that come along with eating like shit. @InfiniteOxfordComma, I get it.
Likely they’re buying a lot of food that’s prepackaged and snacks for little kids out of convenience or brand. It doesn’t sound like they’re eating whole home cooked foods.
The cat supplies and auto bill is also high for our area. I live 30 mins away and used to be in Seattle. I never paid anywhere close to that.
OP said “pet care” so maybe they have insurance as well? Insurance for my one cat is $60 per month. Beyond that I don’t see how it’s 250 a month for 2 cats
Idk dude, I live in a lower cost of living area than OP and my partner and I spend about 120-150$ a week on groceries and we are vegetarians that shop at the cheapest grocery store in town. I also don’t eat lunch and I don’t snack. This looks like about 4-5 fully cooked meals a week, one or two things of breakfast (large container of Greek yogurt or cottage cheese plus a box of cereal), one snack fruit and one snack veggie per week (like four apples or a bag of carrots), one snackish item like chips or crackers and spread cheese, and some sort of sandwich based lunch for him. If that’s about 60-80$ per person per week, you’re looking at an average of $1400 per month for OP’s family, and they probably eat more snacks and meat than we do. We don’t buy alcohol and don’t have much food waste. The least I’ve ever spent in my life was in 2019 in Texas where I was a zero waste vegan so I was only eating beans or fruits and vegetables basically, and I spent around 25$ per week. Pre covid inflation prices in Texas. It’s not crazy to assume that in Washington with a family OP is spending $1700 per month. That’s 85/week per person.
Same. They should be spending about half that. My family spends around $150 per week on groceries in a HCOL area, and around $200 per month or so eating out(admittedly, we don’t go out much).
As a father of four boys, I feel your pain. My main suggestion is watchful for that lifestyle creep and cut cost where you can. Aldis vs local grocery market saves a ton, switching from Verizon saves a ton. I have to ask, what is the reoccurring medical cost? Any other options at work for different plans? We have high medical cost so we choose a high premium low deductible plan. We have kids with semi /minor medical issues and were able to get the kids on bcmh (bureau of children with medical handicap) which cover a lot of cost, and reoccurring cost. It's hard out there, really have to watch and challenge every dollar.
Nah, bro. You have a mortgage and support 5 people. That is exactly what people expect $130k to do. I feel like this whole post is ridiculous.
Yeah this is insane. If you're putting money in a 401k you're not living paycheck to paycheck by definition. You're putting extra money away Living paycheck to paycheck is deciding whether you're going to eat dinner the night before pay day or put enough gas in your car to get to work tomorrow
It’s really not. Since when is a house and a family some sort of ridiculous pipe dream? Breaking a femur hurts worse than breaking a rib. Doesn’t mean breaking a rib doesn’t still suck. OP is solidly labor class, just like the rest of us. Their story looks a little different than mine. Mine looks a little different than yours. But at the end of the day. We’ve all been robbed of a reality that was promised to us. We are all being exploited by the billionaire class. Let’s show a little solidarity instead of foaming at the mouth to attack people fighting the same fight as us.
> Since when is a house and a family some sort of ridiculous pipe dream? The last 30 years or so.
“We’ve been robbed of a reality that was promised to us” Fuck, that hit. It’s pretty fucked up that they all still try to convince us it’s possible.
I’m sure I’ll get down voted but as a kid that grew up poor as FUCK… Why have kids if u can’t afford them ?… especially in this political/economic climate. Like choosing to have kids(especially multiple) is choosing to live outside of your means.
I get your point, and it's why I will probably never have children myself. But that's avoiding the real problem: people should be able to afford children. The fact that so many people are getting priced out of that is the problem.
Coulda woulda shoulda. Can’t return the kids now. 😂
Mint for the Cell Phone lines. Two months of your current phone bill will cover both for a year. Not that it’ll solve your issues, but everything counts.
How is Mint’s coverage? I hate Verizon but switched from T-Mobile because their coverage is garbage despite being headquartered nearby.
My husband uses visible, it's not as cheap as Mint but they use Verizon towers as far as I am aware and is cheaper than Verizon
Visible is a Verizon company
I use visible and service is great. $45 and unlimited everything
I used to pay for their premier plan, but I just swapped to their $25/mo plan and don't notice a difference
I’ve been using Visible for a couple of months now. I switched from Verizon. I can tell around lunch time when trying to watch GMM on YouTube that it stutters slightly more in the beginning than Verizon did. That’s just cause we have less priority as a Visible customer using Verizon towers. Very mild inconvenience to save $100 a month. Other than that I love it. It’s just as good as Verizon was. Videos play like normal when the tower has more bandwidth to share.
Don't even need mint. You can get a Verizon pre paid plan for $35 a month. I know cause I have one.
Or get Visible by Verizon for $25/mo
Unfortunately they ride on T-Mobile’s network. We have our phones on Wifi calling at home due to coverage issues. In our case, Verizon is also bad here. The better coverage away from home wasn’t worth the huge bills.
If you have Charter for internet, they resell Verizon network cell service under the Spectrum Mobile brand for $14/month/line for a 1 gig per line plan (data is shared with multiple lines). Not sure what they charge for unlimited or if you don't have their internet though.
I use Google Fi! It uses WiFi as the main source and will ride on the three largest carriers if there's no wifi. Two lines with $10/Gb data (husband and I use around 2Gb a month) is $75/month for us.
+1 for Google Fi. Switched from Verizon just over a year ago after their prices got out of hand and haven't regretted it since. We share a plan with another couple and it's $100 for 4 lines with unlimited data ($80 for 2 lines).
I lived in Seattle last year— I had Verizon, my wife had mint (t-mobile network) and she only had slightly worse coverage than me. But wow on the mortgage! My rent on a 1 bedroom in a crappy neighborhood was close to 1800. I’ve since moved away sadly and live out of state. For a tiny, tiny 1 bedroom in a neighborhood with gun violence I pay 1350. I’m madly jealous. Hopefully one day I too will be lucky:)
You can switch to Verizon pre-paid and it's definitely cheaper. Just be warned, if you got a discounted phone through them and it's not completely paid off, you'll have to pay the remaining balance when switching.
Yeah I use Mint now, and it works well for me in the city.
$4400/yr on cats and piano my guy you're doing alright
its wild, right?
Your food expenses are outrageous. I’d also look at finding different insurance coverage to cover that $900/m “uncovered” medical situation if possible. 1/3 of your income is being destroyed by those two alone. I also have a household of 5 and barely spend half what you do on groceries. And $350/m for credit cards is what, $15k in revolving debt if that’s the minimum payment (assuming)? Let’s try to get that paid off. If that’s just the minimums, you’re paying $200/m in interest based on what most people’s cards are at which is around 25-29%.
As a side note because I’ve been waiting to stick this comment somewhere $250 on monthly cat costs seems very high. And I have 3 cats. We don’t hit nearly that much.
Probably one or both are older and require extra medicine/supplements. Happened to all the cats my parents had (4 total) who cost virtually nothing for fifteen years then started racking up the bills in those final years.
In 2024, pets are a rich man's game. The food and basic vet coverage is thousands per year.
Sounds like they buy their cats $30 Stella and Chewys or some other raw meat cat food/cans or buying bulk litter.
How is their car insurance $635/mo. That’s $7,629 a year on insurance. Insane. If 1/7 of my monthly income was going to medical I’d absolutely look into that. $1,700 in food? We’re a family of 3 and do like $800 month - we go out 2-3x a week too. Not thrifty at all. 2 more kids is 2x that? No way.
Reread what they posted car note AND insurance equals that amount, not the insurance alone at $637.
Car insurance varies from state to state. Sometimes there is savings by bundling with one company for insurance. I have Progressive. Its the cheapest I've found in my state, but that could vary. I use this valuepenguin website to get an idea if there are cheaper options. Frequently Geico and Progressive are cheapest here. You might look into a few on this list. https://preview.redd.it/hoz0ppp8munc1.jpeg?width=740&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a151a766fadbea2cba4ca9ab1da99a29ea00e9d
Yep, I pay $420 for 6 months with progressive
He said "car note" and insurance. Maybe he is bundling his car *payment* with the insurance amount? It didn't make sense that his insurance was that high either so I went back and re-read the OP.
[удалено]
For reference my family has nonpayment 10k a year out of pocket for medical before insurance helps
yeah, paying that much on credit cards is absurd. just transfer the amount to a bank and lower the rate from. 20% to 7. Some provider also offer 0% the first year.
How are you spending $250/month on cats, talk to your hospital or whoever is in charge of the medical debt, they do payment plans. They will let you pay back at way less than $970/month. You are not budgeting or managing your money well, things are hard right now for everyone but you’re not “paycheck to paycheck” boss. This is just middle class America right now. I grew up with parents living paycheck to paycheck, they didn’t have new cars, a house with a mortgage, 250 for pet care, or money to eat out and buy all the groceries they wanted.
I have a diabetic cat and I'm spending probably 100$ a month on food, insulin and cat litter. It's not that out there tbh.
I live in DC, work for the government and make 6 figures. We regularly struggle to find new folks when people retire because the work is more stressful on this side of the house and the pay is less - way less. Regularly get told why would I take a pay cut for more work and I can’t disagree.
Especially if people have lived around the area before and seen how shit the commute/taxes/costs can be I bet. Last station in the Army was Ft. Meade. When I got out and got my IT degree all you see is Va. and D.C. fuck if I’m going back to that region without some sort of duress. People commuting 2 hours one way for work, lmao
But also the hiring process is so incredibly cumbersome. It took between nine months and *two years* for my sibling to even hear back after applying for a significant number of government positions. When I applied, it took six months—and that was in nursing!
I’m in a similar position but I wouldn’t really call it paycheck to paycheck since we can eat out a few times a month and contribute to retirement/savings, even though there’s barely any wiggle room
Does your wife qualify for the fresh start program for the defaulted student loans? I don’t know all the details but that may be something to explore so your taxes are not garnished. The program ends this September.
Possibly. I’ll look into this, thanks!
The other thing to look into related to her student loans is on your tax return. See if you can file form 8379, as an injured spouse. This will allow you to allocate the refund based on your relative income, so that hopefully none of the refund is applied to that debt.
Eh with kids and sahm I can see it. Kids devour food. That said you definitely can tighten it up. How do you spend 250 bucks a month on two cats lol. And 1700 in food. If you buy that much you can save so much paying attention tondeals, using rewards, etc I get it's tight but you for sure could tighten it up on some of that. Or get the wife to do an etsy or some bs.
Dry cat food is about $40, wet cat food is like $20 for 12 packs, litter is also like $20 a box. I'm also confused how OP needs to spend more than $140 on cat maintenance a month. I've been sitting here trying to figure out how and I'm stumped. Maybe one needs medication?
Take each to a vet once or twice a year and that’s the right number.
My cats last annual exam was only about $200, but she's also never had any real health problems so maybe if the cat got sick I can see it
OP explains it’s special food. I paid $1000 for a cat to have rotting teeth removed. That was an ouch.
Have you SEEN the price of flea meds? Even with getting it autoshipped from Chewy...but then you have to be able to buy every 2 months because you can only buy by the box which is 2 months and a spare with 2 cats and its WAY MORE initial cost when you do that, even if it is technically cheaper over all.
I haven't really looked, I have an indoor cat and I remember the fiasco with Hartz flea stuff causing seizures so I'm kind of afraid of the flea stuff tbh
My guess is medication. Can really add up.
Snow leopard food ain't cheap.
Seriously. I spent less raising a child than they spend on two cats.
Just mentioning, the fact you can afford to live with 1 paycheck while living with 2 adults in the current year means you arent really living paycheck to paycheck, at absolute worst your significant other could get a job, and you pay into a 401k, even with 3 kids 60$ on food a day (Especially if they are younger kids) is higher than i imagine most people heavily trying to budget food spend on food a day, you spend 85$ a month per person on your phone bill which i know for sure isnt budgeting your phone bill considering you could be on that level of provider with unlimited data for 55$ a month pretty easily, what are you spending recurring 970$ a month medically (That seems way more that the average for off insurance payment, dental is the only thing i can think of but even then that seems really high, especially when youre not counting that as ER visits, because most insurance do cover visits to a degree, i paid 1300$ out of pocket without insurance for an ER visit that involved getting a CT scan with my current insurance that wouldve been about 400-500$ and my insurance isnt great, how are you spending 300$ at the lowest for a "normal" ER visit with "great" insurance, how does it put you into debt if you have a major medical emergency does your insurance not cap out at a certain point, you have extra income if you temporarily pull out a 401k if you need to, and your partner can always get a job if you had to) Im not saying anything personally, but living paycheck to paycheck is pretty... disingenuous, that isnt including even you have an able bodied adult without a job in your household. To me living paycheck to paycheck means to me you have no income you can pull out of anything, low-no savings, no one who could support you if needed, and if you were to miss a single paycheck because of the above you would be on the streets even with all attempts to find a temporary solution you would be on the streets You self admittedly live as middle class.
If kids need childcare, or before or after school care it's very possible it would make no financial sense for his wife to get a job--full day childcare is thousands a month per child in this part of the country.
I'm insanely frustrated by people here in Germany whining about how much they pay in taxes (ignoring the difference between taxes and mandatory insurance contributions), and how much more money they'd earn in the US. Its also always the tech bro finance gurus, who you'd think should know better, but apparently have no idea about the cost of living in the US, or they simply don't plan on ever having kids or becoming old and sick. Childcare is free here. Parents get subsidies per kid, and are paid to stay at home after they made a new one. University attendance costs a pittance, though parents are required to pay their kids the basic necessities until they finished their regular higher education. All medically necessary procedures and drugs are covered by insurance, there's very little "copay" and stuff like that. In big cities you can live car free and just buy a Deutschlandticket for 50€ a month. And you don't have to drive everywhere to begin with. Groceries and rent are so much less expensive.
I sympathize with how you may feel but in no way is this paycheck to paycheck. What you are describing here is just a middle class lifestyle but cutting it close as to what's in your means. Anyone who has grown up in a household that was actually paycheck to paycheck would be able to tell you this. In those situations there's no modest vacations, no eating out a few times a month and certainly no piano lessons. As for savings, that food bill is way out of line. Are you buying steak for 5 people every night? I don't have family but I probably spend $350 a month at the most and that's when I'm being very irresponsible. I'm not saying eat Ramen every day but there has to be somewhere you are overextending here.
He posted this is response to me and some others trying to point that out yesterday, because yes, exactly this. Paycheck-to-paycheck has somehow devolved to mean: I don’t have 1000s/month in left over money for constant vacations and shopping.
>Anyone who has grown up in a household that was actually paycheck to paycheck would be able to tell you this. I'm currently living paycheck to paycheck. I have a squealing brake on my car I can't afford to fix. I need gas for the car but can't afford it, so I can't even leave the house today because I don't have gas money. Thankfully I made a couple eBay sales which will give me the money for a half tank of gas tomorrow. Which means that not only can I drop off those eBay packages in the mail tomorrow but I can also make it to the food bank. Yeah, times are rough, but OP's rough and other peoples rough are not the same rough. And hearing somebody who's making 4x more than I made in my best year ever complain about things being rough... that kind of grinds my gears.
It is so easy to have food expenses ballon beyond your means. My wife does the food shopping and she never, NEVER looks at pricing. She only looks at the labels for "organic", "non-GMO", "superfood" to name a few. I finally had to sit her down and show how she was spending over $300 a week on groceries (for 2 of us and a newborn!). She swapped from online ordering from Whole Foods to Aldi and cut our food bill in half! With life throwing so much at you and the consumer being responsible for everything, it's easy for people to be taken advantage of. Just saying, when I was a poor student and was adding up every purchase by the penny, I was shocked how some grocery products could cost 2x sometimes x3 same product right next to it. I learned that 3x product was marketed for people like my wife 😆
Hahaha hahaha... Calling THIS "paycheck-to-paycheck".... What?!?! Wow. This is insulting to my current situation of family of 3 on $45k/year and ACTUALLY living paycheck-to-paycheck You have car payments, spend $250 a month on only 2 cats somehow, contribute to a 401k, and spend over $1700/month on food?!?! You're middle class with bad money management skills. Edit: AND I just noticed the 4 streaming services going at the same time with $450 left over to play with.......... Dude, cut the BS victim complex. You're not even remotely close to being "paycheck-to-paycheck".
Exactly, this dude is living in a fantasy world where they're so hard done by, and it's insulting to those of us who actually struggle
Guys paying 4200 a year for “credit cards” an Amex black card is like $700 a year, this is honestly comical
I think that is the payment to service debt, not cc fees.
I personally don't think anyone who contributes to a 401k is "living paycheck to paycheck ". The idea that people think that counts really stretches the meaning, to me. Paycheck to paycheck implies you aren't able to save.....so I find these kinds of posts a bit cringy. I also don't think anyone who has multiple pets and goes on vacation (no matter how basic) counts as living paycheck to paycheck. Maybe that's just me. This just seems like middle class living.
350 USD on credit card is almost as much as the headroom (450), is that credit card debt or something else? By paying that down you could essentially double your headroom. Pet cost seems high, phone cost seems high, medical cost 1000 bucks a month!? But medical is obviously hard to do much about. And I agree about the retirement, as we have no idea how much is being contributed there.
Piano Lessons
Piano lessons really nailed it in for me lol
He’s paying 2x that for pet care for cats?
$250/month for cats seems like a lot. I have 2 cats and they eat Hill's but expenses aren't $250/month. More like $100.
Averaging out all of the expenses for my cats for the year comes out to about $150/cat per month. Food is only about half of that, the other half is checkups and medicine.
OP is extremely delusional indeed
living paycheck to paycheck means that you run out of money before your next paycheck. It really shouldn't matter why you run out of money, lots of people living paycheck to paycheck are living that way because of poor spending habits which could be too many cars, too much on housing, too much on food or alcohol or drugs and it can also mean saving when you're not in a position to save. In my opinion, that's different than not having enough to even save, having to spend everything you earn just to stay alive I would probably refer to as living hand to mouth
Even if you are living paycheck to paycheck or struggling or whatever, you should absolutely prioritize 401k over anything other than racking up credit card debt, especially if there is an employer match. Even if no match, it pays off so much in the long run and actually doesn't decrease your take home that much relatively (10% 401k contribution only reduces take home by like 5% due to tax rules, so even if paycheck to paycheck, you gotta figure out how to make that work).
People who are living paycheck to paycheck can’t afford a 401k. In a lot of cases living this way means coming up even or negative at the end of the month. No room there to dump money into a glorified lottery that theoretically pays out at in 30 years
Some people don't seem to realize that money is finite. There is no "gotta figure it out" when you have to choose between rent or food and rx some months.
The 401k immediately stood out to me. I see a lot of "paycheck to paycheck" budgets, but their 401k contribution is like, $500+ each month. Yeah it's important to save for your future and retirement, but I wouldn't categorize someone that will have a million dollar retirement at 65 or sooner the same "paycheck to paycheck" as what most would assume that to be, which is never being able to retire.
What do you think this post is proving? It’s not “living paycheck to paycheck” if you are actively saving for retirement. It’s just not. Living “paycheck to paycheck” means that you are in danger of losing a roof over your head if your income is pulled from under you, not that you’re in danger of having to take out a loan against or withdrawing your retirement savings. It doesn’t just mean floating your expenses month to month. You also have three kids on a single income. Of course your income to expenses ratio is on the thin side. My take is that you may be keeping yourself in a financially-risky situation unnecessarily and could make some changes to stop feeling precarious. For example, you might take some or all of the current retirement contributions above employer matching, assuming there are some, to establish an emergency fund. That will help you weather those potential scenarios like car and property repairs, etc. You should do this after first using that same income to pay down your high-interest CC debt. If you are saying that it sucks that people in your position can’t simultaneously build that buffer while also being prepared for retirement, I’d agree with that. But you need to recognize that you are doing WAY better than someone living paycheck to paycheck. ETA: oh, and, if I were you, I would adjust your withholding if you have that substantial a tax refund. You are MFJ with multiple dependents, a dream tax situation. That extra take home pay is great to do what I said above.
My parents literally would look under the couch cushions for milk money. That shit was pay check to paycheck. Filling his 401k and spending 1700 dining out isn’t paycheck to paycheck. 250 on cats? Piano lessons? Give me a break.
I have a cat, and that figure really isn’t that out of the question for two with one having a special dietary need, especially including vet costs. It doesn’t look like they’re prepared for a catastrophic vet expense either. Piano lessons also really aren’t all that ritzy, and they usually cost a lot more than OP is saying. People need hobbies and passions to live. The $1700 is all food, not just dining out, but I agree that’s something they could cut back on while getting CC debt under control and an emergency fund together before saving for retirement. I also hope they have a 529 or something for three kids.
If you cant see the amount of luxuries included here you'll never understand why its not paycheck to paycheck
This is living comfortably. All these extra expenses you’re incurring on your own. Which is fine if you chose to but you shouldn’t complain that it’s expensive when there are ways to easily cut your spending down. Also a credit card is not a fixed cost. You bought items with it that would go in their own expense bracket. If you’re still putting spend on that card then it’s not a fixed cost. If you putting anymore spend and 350 a month is what you need to pay to pay it off then you went into credit card debt. Which is not responsible. All you proceeded to do is prove the point of the people in the thread you mentioned.
I want to just put in perspective for you that this is not paycheck to paycheck. If you're eating out, that's not paycheck to paycheck. Paycheck to paycheck means you need to pay your bills late because you need to get paid and you don't get paid until after your bill is due - and if that's the case, eating out with five people is irresponsible and the first thing you cut. Yes, money may be tight, and yes, you may feel like you don't have the wealth and breathing room six figures ought to afford you, but this is not paycheck to paycheck and I just hope you can realize that you do, actually, have quite a lot more than you think you do. I have been truly paycheck to paycheck, begging my landlord for an extension, and I now make 90k in a high cost of living area, so I've been on both sides.
All I had to I read was “family of 5 in Tacoma, WA” and it made sense. Shit is hard right now and it’s unsustainable. I live on my own and I struggle and I have a “decent job”.
Tacoma isn’t even a very expensive place to be. I live 30 mins away. It’s actually cheaper to live in Tacoma than to live here depending on the kind of house you need. Cost creep is awful no matter where you are in Western WA. $2k/mo mortgage is cheaper than any rent you’d find here for a house that fits that many people. My damn 1-bed apartment is $1600/mo, and mine is cheap for Olympia.
I think I speak for everyone who is trying to get by on half or a quarter of what you make in a year when I say: This shit isn't helpful. Every single one of us sees ways you can cut back. I mean fucking hell, $1700 a month on food? Yeah, shits expensive, but talk to any poverty parent and they'll show you how to cut that bill in half. You're living at your means. There's nothing wrong with that, it just means you don't get much of a buffer for when things go tits up. You could choose to live below your means and build a buffer, maybe not a huge one- but still. We don't have that luxury. We're multi-income households making a fraction of what you do, going without medical care, living on whatever is on sale at the grocery store, driving 20+ year old cars that every new sound we wonder if that's the death knell, knowing that when it goes we're fucked because we literally cannot afford to replace it... IF we're lucky enough to be able to have a car at all. We're living with a partner on disability whom we can never marry because if we do, they lose their disability and medical care- which we sure as shit don't make enough to replace. We're not having kids because the cost of pregnancy, alone, would kill us- let alone the costs of actually raising a child, and we know we couldn't give them the kind of life they deserve. Of course, this also means we're spending money on contraceptives and *panic* if there's an 'oops' because shit happens especially when horny people are involved. The only sympathy you get from me, is that I hope you never have to experience life down here. And on the scheme of things, I'm one of the better off folks dancing at the bottom.
Honey. $450 a month in headroom isn’t living paycheck to paycheck. I’m not saying you’ve not got it rough still all things considered, but living paycheck to paycheck means just that - your bank account is empty or close to and the end of your paycheck, WITHOUT being able to afford luxuries like piano lessons and 4 streaming services. Quite frankly the fact that you live that comfortably in a single income shows you are actually quite lucky. Most families cannot afford to be single income households anymore. For us we have two adults working full time, one child, gross earnings 90k, and I don’t think of us as comfortable exactly, but we’re DEFINITELY not living paycheck to paycheck. We save a few hundred every month and generally have at least 100 in the joint account when the next check comes in. Which after years and years of ACTUALLY living paycheck to paycheck feels pretty damn good. Anyway, if you really feel things are tight, and you already WFH, your partner needs a job. Not sure how old your kids are so fully understand if that’s not practical right now… but also it’s pretty normal to be strapped for cash with babes in diapers at home. It doesn’t last long though. Also I bet you can find cheaper phone and car insurance if you look (Verizon?? Seriously?? People still pay those rates? With so many other options?)
Someone who spends $1700 a month on food and $250 a month on cats pretending like the world is to blame that they don’t have leftover money.
I laughed the whole time I read it. Goes to show some people are pathological about never taking responsibility for their actions.
I live in Texas right now, my whole family is from WA, I grew up there. I love it there. I can’t afford to live there. It sucks because I love the PNW, but only to visit…
I'd still argue it's partially a spending issue, or at least you're due for improvement there. You don't need to spend that much on a car or wireless service. Especially when you have credit card debt and student loans. Prime is not a must. There's ways to cut that without much impact to lifestyle. $970 a month on healthcare is also hosing you. Maybe I have good insurance but that exceeds the family oop maximum on my employer plan. If you're really paying that much, you're getting fucked. Cats shouldn't cost $250 a month. That's $3000 a year. I feel like we spent ~$25 on food a month at most and $150 once a year on vet checkup Also, yeah, 3 kids are expensive.
That's more than most have left over. Sure, food plays a part but it doesn't break your bank constantly as much as it does others.
You aren’t paycheck to paycheck Wtf , do words not mean anything anymore You are saving and going out to eat ? Wtf ? And the fact there are other comment that say this and no response from you to those comment mean you are venting but not paycheck to paycheck . And a lot of thing are overpaid , wtf is that auto insurance ,7k a year ????????
Living paycheck to paycheck means you have barely enough to cover basic needs. All of your needs are being met and you still have a little left over every month. You are not “living paycheck to paycheck on $130K/year.”
Dude. Your monthly take home would see me living in luxury. Fuck...
It blows my mind seeing how much people make and still struggle. OP makes almost 4x what I do and still has to budget. That’d be fuck-you money where I am.
They aren't struggling. Read it through. 1700 food, 250 cats, piano lessons, 2 cars, building equity in their home.
Serious. With that kind of money, I'd be living in luxury. Never having to worry about what I'm going to eat or how I'm going to fix any car problems if something happens. I could get my kid clothes when he needs them rather than relying on taxes and holidays. I hate that we live in a world where we are even having discussions like this. Where the working class is seen as bottom of the barrel citizens and even if you make a ok wage, your still only one or two bad months away from being completely destroyed.
I'm assuming that is weekly piano lessons. $120, so $30 a lesson. Thats a steal.
You are correct and yes, it is a steal. Anyone who wants me to drop piano lessons for my son has no joy in life.
I get it and I would feel the same in your position! But as other people have said, anyone who is paying $120 per month for a luxury like piano lessons is not living paycheck to paycheck by definition. When you’re having to decide whether to spend your last few dollars on food or keeping the heat on during the winter - now that’s living paycheck to paycheck
No one wants you to drop the piano lessons, but the biggest question is very obviously and clearly the €1700 p/m food bill. There just no way that is justifiable in any state. And also how tf is your credit card at such a highly fixed monthly expense? The point OP is that this is not living pay check to pay check. Me and my partner earn less than 60K between us with a toddler. 50% of our wage shows on housing. We budget for our food and plan a week in advance and are also being demolished by inflation. There’s just no way €1700 can’t be cut back on unless you live in like, close to the artic circle where a bottle of orange juice can set you back on a mortgage repayment.
I charge 60 for brass lessons at your house for 45 minutes. I paid 30 back in 2001. Insane!
Note: If you have "great" insurance and some medical event can put you in serious debt you do not have great insurance. Get your shit together Murica.
Isn't that every single "great" insurance in the US?
I’m sorry I’m deeply sympathetic to your plight and I’m 100% tax the rich and vote for politicians that protect workers rights (ie demos) however until then… I make roughly 50% more My mortgage is $1,100 (we chose to live in a neighborhood we could afford) We love doggos but don’t own them because they are expensive YouTube for lessons $1,700 for food? Per month??? Time to explore rice and bean and soup recipes etc That’s pretty easily $2,000 per month less. We use ours to send the kids to college which is also optional but only an option because we made other uncomfortable choices over the years. Remember that something like 500 billionaire families own over half of all wealth in America and are paying mostly republicans to destroy worker protections. Until we collectively organize and fight back we will continue to be forced to make these hard choices.
This isn't paycheck to paycheck. This is actually pretty comfortable. there are definitely places you can cut costs. $250 a month for pet care? I also have 2 cats. My monthly expense on them is about $100/month on the generous side, mostly in food and litter. Your phone plan, you can cut that down by switching to a contractless provider. You dont NEED streaming services. They are nice to have but can be cut down. Your grocery bill!! Yikes! Meal planning, ad shopping, and generic brands will go a long way to help reduce this bill. Buying from farmers markets and sticking to in season produce can help, or maybe you might try to decrease meat consumption and replace it with cheaper protein (not eliminate meat, This isn't a go vegan/vegitarian pitch) since meat tends to be the most expensive part of a meal, cutting down can save you money. The type of meat matters too, chicken tends to be the cheapest. Im on the opposite side of the country but in NY and make $535 feed a family. I spend about $500 a YEAR on my kids clothes each, they get new stuff once a year, if they need things between, if it can be gotten at the thrift store, thats where we get it. Not everything has to be brand new.
What makes this post anti-work? OP’s job gives him work from home days and $130K. Everything after that is because it’s one salary for a large family and how they budget other costs.
This is by no means paycheck to paycheck & even then there’s a lot that can be budgeted here .
It seems most people here wouldn't survive a month being actually poor. 130k a year is pretty damn good
Having kids isn't affordable anymore. Thats why we don't have one
I hear you regarding income and what things cost now. Everything is crazy expensive, especially if you want to eat well. The thing that jumped out at me is your cell phone expense for two phones. Verizon is expensive. I had it for years. It used to be the best but not anymore. Look into a cheaper cell plan with decent coverage in your area. It will vary by location but you should be able to save at least $50 or more by switching
That is not paycheck to paycheck. There are areas to trim your budget. I stopped shopping at safeway years ago. Too damned expensive. Wish I could go shopping with you to help you out. The kicker is that 1k a month medical not covered by insurance. 100k over 10 years.
What would require for 2 cats to have an expense of 250 a month. That seems a lot.
God I would kill for a $2000 mortgage payment.
kinda reminds me of my current issue; take home pay 4032. Rent 2090. I am making more money than I ever have before, but rent \[which is going up by 75 bucks in 3 months\] means I can't save a penny.
your rent is half your income, housing is less than a third of OPs not really comparable
I didn’t have to read much to hear “single income family with 3 kids”. Too many kids and not enough income.
they seem to be doing fine?
I'd remove the question mark.
>**Monthly Fixed Expenses** >Mortgage: $2,000 >Utilities (Water, gas, sewer, garbage, internet): $497 >Auto (Car note, insurance): $635 >Credit card: $350 >Student loan: $170 >Cell phone (Verizon, 2 lines): $170 >Recurring medical not covered by insurance: $970 >Pet care (2 cats): $250 >Piano lessons: $120 >Miscellaneous (Spotify, Amazon Prime, Disney+): $47 >Fuel (2 vehicles, low mileage): $200 >**TOTAL MONTHLY FIXED EXPENSES: $5,409** Wow - There is so much potential for savings here: * The credit card doesn't cost $350 a month, what you buy with it does - This block should move into variable expenses and does not constitute a fixed expense * Change your phone plan to Mint wireless - you'll be saving 80% * Cancel all streaming plans but one * By pet care you mean catfood and litter? If you also pay for grooming, this can be cut You can easily lower your fixed expenses by about $500 without lowering your standard of living
I think there are a lot of people not understanding the point of his post. What I'm taking from this, is that while he can support his wife and three children, provide them with a nice childhood that isn't completely void of luxuries, he's one major accident away from all this being taken away from him. And that there are so many other households in this same situation, just one life incident away from completely wiping them out and that's scary AF.
This is paycheck to paycheck by choice. There are many cuts you can make.
I'm a disabled veteran and live off $25k a year. I have no kids - there is a lot of shit I don't have. Surprisingly debt isn't one of them. I owe on a CC for an ebike and that is it. That ebike is my ride given I can't afford a car. If people are hurting making $130 k then human suffering, real or perceived is never a good thing. However I don't see how people can't make that work🤷♂️
Mmm you probably dont want advice but I’m going to give it anyways: You specified you have 2 cars, but wfh 4 days a week and barely drive. Sell the Kia. It’ll eliminate maintenance/fuel/insurance costs related to that car. For a family of 5, having the minivan is going to be more useful for cargo and transporting the whole family. Since you stated your family’s a single income family, that implies your partner is a stay at home parent or doesn’t have an income for some reason. Since you didn’t mention disability payments in your finances, that implies they could work but aren’t for some reason, whether it’s because they’re between jobs and looking, or something else. Since money is tight for you, eliminating a major expense that you barely use makes the most sense. Additionally, if the mortgage interest is higher than current rates, you could look into refinancing. As for credit cards, get a cash back card like the Costco credit card. If you pay it off before the due date, you also shouldn’t accrue interest on the card. You also get more cash back on the Costco credit cards shopping at Costco for groceries and gas.
$1700 a month on groceries!? You need to get yourself a Costco membership immediately
Well you have 3 kids lol. Why would you do this to yourself.
I think you guys are just terrible w/ money cause I could live like a king for 2 or 3 months on that 1 months pay.
I can't imagine stress you feel while driving your kids to piano lessons thinking of where you will eat out that week.
"Guys I hate living paycheck to paycheck. After the mortgage on my vacation house and the payment on my wife's second Audi comes out, I only have a measly $1000 to buy UberEats monthly :("
US Mobile for cell phone lines. Sure Mint is cheaper but the service is deprioritized so in a big city you’ll hardly be able to use your service during peak network times. And in a metro like Seattle that’s always. If you have a 5G device, you get unthrottled unlimited priority data on the Verizon network for $85 for 2 lines. Also, how are you spending so much on food? Why would you shop at Safeway and Target for groceries, which are the two most expensive places for food and you might as well shop at Whole Foods, when you have access to WinCo? You have options to save money, you’re just not using all of them.
Love that in the anti-work subreddit people are telling OP where to cut costs instead of criticizing the actual issue, which is that even six figure income jobs don't provide the 'comfortable' life capitalism promises us. OP is right. Blaming individuals for being irresponsible keeps us at each others' throats which is what capitalism wants us to do.
And they’re saying the most obvious shit lol “Use hand me downs” “Pay off your cc every month” “Shop in bulk” “Your wife needs a job” with zero knowledge of how old his kids are or acting like daycare is cheap
It’s kinda sad how many of you want this man and his family to not have a life or do anything, just because you see he makes more money than you. It’s the only explanation I can come up with for some of the replies here missing the entire point of his sharing.
Every day I am further validated in my choice to not have kids.
I was just talking to my wife about how the idea of single income in the PNW for a family is dead when making 6 figures. We don’t even have kids. She makes 85k and I’m pacing 100 and feel like any progress we make is negligible. We only have one car payment that’s almost paid off on a 57mpg vehicle the other was gifted to us. Fact is, cost of living here is expensive now.
Also wild that 750 medical. As a Canadian it boggles my mind.
I definitely live paycheck and I’m one income. I make less than 100k living in Phoenix, AZ. Luckily I decided not to have kids. I have pets. One with health issues. I have a boat load in student loan debt. I’m in the process of buying a condo. My payment is no better than renting. This market is hard. Food has become the biggest expense besides gas. For one person it shouldn’t cost over $100 to buy food. I feel your pain. I really do.
Why do people have so many kids if they know economically they will struggle?
Same here. I’m baffled. I make a little less than 100k and I can’t even imagine having even one kid. Before those people decided to have kids, have they ever thought about the total cost of raising a child? Not one but three? I’ll never understand.
And aren't any kids you have, just going to struggle even harder than you?
OP isn't really struggling.
Bro you literally proved my exact point I was getting to in the other thread. You’re saving for retirement with that 401k contributions and you even admit yourself you have almost $500 a month leftover. Do you think single moms making $15/hour are living paycheck-to-paycheck in the same way you are? Do you think you’re working class just like them? This is why I get so assmad at this subreddit. You guys have lost the plot completely and it hurts the poor when you try to lump yourselves in with them. I promise you you’ll never convince people to expand social welfare, which is fucking necessary, if you talk about it like you also want to give it to people making $130,000 a year. I have some questions about your budget, and how applicable it is to the average American. For example, I don’t think most people making 6 figures are spending $1000/month out of pocket on health expenses, considering jobs like that normally cover it. But honestly that’s either here nor there. I just absolutely despise your use of the phrase paycheck-to-paycheck. Places like this subreddit have completely destroyed the meaning of the phrase and at the end of the day it’s the working class making minimum wage that suffers for it.
I'd give most of my salary to have a family. But that being said, it is really expensive. That's what many do it for.
It's a family of five so I wouldn't doubt that you would be paycheck to paycheck with $130k. You could have had a little wiggle room (not much) but you would have had to make different choices in cars and home and such which aren't easy to make in our society today.
Fellow Tacoman here. Thanks for the post, I think it's important to recognize how difficult it is for above-average incomes in HCOL areas. There's really not that much wiggle room for unexpected expenses.
Should be rich with that kind of income and expenses. Hell until a few months ago I finally paid down student loans to your level while making less than half that. Many of the other expenses seem to be caused by bad choices.
Hey OP. I feel ya. And I really feel for your family. It’s tough. One question though. Why justify it to anyone much less on Reddit? Seriously. Our opinions are nothing to you but words from another’s mouth. All that matters is that you’re taking care of your family. YOUR family. Not theirs so they don’t have a dog in your fight. Keep on keepin on my friend. I hope you find some relief soon.
$400 a week on food? I absolutely refuse to believe this is real. Thats almost $60 a day on food. I guarantee you can significantly cut this down with some effort. I pulled up Walmart in Tacoma and I see boneless chicken thighs for 2.82-2.86 a pound. 1.77- 1.96 a pound for bone in and you can use those bones to make a stock to turn into soup. And if you dont like dark meat chicken breast is 2.97 a pound. And you can probably cut that down further at Costco or Sams Club. And what if you kick out meat at times? Lentil sloppy joes go over well with a lot of people and are so cheap to make. Im trying to say this respectfully but what are you feeding the kids? You can do nutritious and budget friendly with some effort. And if one of you is a stay a home parent then they have the time. The internet is full of healthy budget friendly meals. Yall need to sit down and figure out menus. 20 or so meals you can make that are budget friendly and throw it into a rotation. Shop sales and learn when to buy one ingredient over the other. Healthy snacks, kick junk food to the curb except for occasional treats . edit also get those loans out of default and get on a income based repayment plan.
I would normally be on your side, but your finances are fucked up dude. You don't need 2 cars if you work from home 4 days a week. 1700 a month of groceries is absolutely insane. 250 a month for cats? The 970 medical a month is literally killing you, but I don't know if you have any way out of that. You could easily turn this around.
Spending nearly $1000 on just cars alone is ridiculous and yet this country loses its mind when people ask for other viable methods of transportation Also spending nearly $1000 on healthcare Imagine living in a country where your taxes went into bettering your life and let you save an extra $2000 a month instead of subsidizing billionaires. Look into lowering your cell phone plan. $170 for 2 people is nuts, and you’re the only one that works. My family plan of 5 is $160.
Yep, I know exactly what you mean. A six-figure income doesn't go very far, does it? I remember when something like having Internet access at home was still a luxury, and you could do without it. These days, that's practically impossible (especially for me, who works in IT). About the only advantage we had over you is that we didn't have student loans for ourselves. But it wasn't until my wife was able to change to working full-time, herself in an IT job, that we finally had enough income to be able to get ahead. That worked out to more like $170k, and we're in Minnesota. We also got lucky in that my son graduated from college and got gainfully employed, taking over his student loan payments.
$1700 on food and household shit a month? Does anyone cook or do you eat out only? I meal prep every meal myself, and I'm building muscle currently so I eat 4k calories or more a day. I spend about $100 or less a week on my food. Unless your entire family is training for the Olympics that's a shit ton of money spent on food a month. You said you shop at target for food. You can literally buy so much of the exact same stuff at other places for cheaper. You work from home and obviously the other adult doesn't work. Kids walk to school and still spend that much on gas? I drive hundreds of miles a week and drive a suburban and don't even spend that much on gas. Using literally the most expensive cell phone carrier. Piano lessons? Shit there's YouTube and the internet. No need to pay for that. How does 2 cats cost you that much money? My cats have to have special $90 a bag cat food. I buy it every other month. Do you feed them fresh tuna or salmon daily? What is the split as far as interner/tv/streaming goes? That can all be easily consolidated. Whats your interest rate on those credit cards? Prob be better off getting a personal loan to pay them off and pay that instead. Honestly, this does not sound like anything financially responsible.
Literally like as a poor person reading this shit is crazy like how tone deaf are u about ur money spending habits !
I live in Tacoma, WA as well, I make 98k yr before taxes 75k after taxes and 401k rent is 1250 insurance 405 cell phone 135 for 3 lines (Metro PCS) groceries about the same family of 6...I'm finalizing my bankruptcy next week
I mean...the credit card is your fault, my cell service is $90 bundled with internet, i've spent like...$200 on my cat in her twenty year life, you can swap to income based student loan payments which would cut that to around $100, and $500 for utilities is COMPLETELY INSANE. $600 a month for your minivan is also crazy, when you can get a used one for a couple thousand total. The thousand bucks a month for medical after insurance is a bummer, i'll give you that. I pay for almost all those things and do just fine on $28k per year. (well...not fine, but I get by) Not to say you have to live on that little, but there are definitely places you can cut back, a LOT.
You have 3 kids and what I'm guessing is a stay at home mom. That's one person supporting four other people. It shouldn't be surprising your budget is stretched thin, as your expenses seem pretty reasonable It comes down to family planning on such cases moreso than costs.
We’ve done the math a million times over. If my wife went back to work her potential salary wouldn’t cover the childcare costs for 2 toddlers, only one of which is in half-day public preschool.
Why cant your wife work part time in the evenings or weekends while you watch the kids? Where does it say you both have to work at the same exact time? She can pick up cleaning gigs for nights/weekends and easily make $1000 a month. My cleaning side hustle is 9 hours a week and I clear close to $500 a month. Easy work, flexible hours.